This content is a webinar discussing the second round of the "Rust Ivy Competition," focusing on analyzing coffee roasting curves, understanding key roasting stages, and their impact on flavor profiles, with a particular emphasis on the nuances of dialing in roasts rather than fixing major defects.
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right welcome to the rust ivy
competition hosted by crock stir and
politics brothers and company this is
round 2 and today we have our guest who
announced shortly but you can probably
see him on your screen we had a really
good turnout last week and I think I'm
doing that slide but I you might have
noticed that I'm not Taylor Wallace big
mistake Wallace is out sick today so I'm
covering for him so I'll be functioning
more is like a moderator so as the
presentation goes on please drop your
questions into the zoom group chat and
then I'll be bringing those up into it
so as you join please make sure your
mics are off video can stay on it's good
to see your faces but if you add in your
questions I'll try to bring them in at
the right time and we'll also have a Q&A
at the end but yeah let's get started
perfect so if you if you first want to
talk about yeah it sounds good um so
this competition last week we realized
that we didn't introduce ourselves this
week we're gonna go through that so I
work at crop stirred my name is Devin
Conley I've been here for the last six
years um the crops was founded back in
2007 and it's based in Innsbruck Austria
and then we also have satellite offices
one of our main offices and in
Sacramento California we also have Wacom
and San Paolo and tours all around the
world so our software is designed for
the specialty coffee supply chain what
you might know that most for is roasting
intelligence for roasting application
but we also go into like an online
database platform where it integrates
all of the information that you have
from coffee origin soon through to the
cafe but yeah we're so happy but you're
here yeah and then uh my name is Eric
zanuck I am a specialty sales associate
for Ballack brothers and we are a
specialty green coffee importer based
out of Charleston South
Carolina but we work all across the
country we originally founded in 1917 so
we've been around for just a bit we're
an independently owned company and
really our focus is bringing in
sustainably sourced and high-quality
coffees and really being service
oriented so just doing what we can to do
whatever we can for the Roasters like
all y'all watching right now yeah so so
the first thing as Devon had mentioned
is we kind of just jumping into a round
one recap which is really exciting for
both crops Andrew Belle's brothers to
see just how many people competed in the
first round we were ya blown away so we
had 214 total responses in the first
round and then kind of on the left here
you'll see the breakdown of how people
did 24 people got all five of the curves
correct in the first round
mathematically not possible to get four
correct so nobody got four correct and
then 76 50 to 55 and seven which means
that if you in the first round we're
thinking oh I only got three or two
right like I'm totally having out of the
running so like win this all not at all
the chance not at all the case you you
still have a chance because there
weren't a large number of people who got
all five right so yeah just keep keep
putting in your answers and hopefully
you did good this round and then Devon
if you kind of want to pinpoint the
location the competitors were just super
yes definitely so I don't think it's a
huge surprise the marketing campaign was
done through the United States but we
have USA coming in at the top with 80
but we also have Eric I'm not great at
counting how many countries did we have
participate oh shoot I should have
counted that beforehand the fastest
counter again I can count those let's
say a lot 35 says Felipe we're gonna
trust believe but we had participants
from all around the world and I was
really impressed and that we had you
know keep from Iran in Saudi Arabia and
people in Europe were it was late in the
evening for them or
Australia was in the middle of the night
if he came to bed to the webinar so it's
really just exciting to see people
showing up um both for the competition
but also for the webinar we have a
hundred and forty-three people on here
right now which is like 70% of the
people who participated last week
so yeah thanks for being here yeah thank
you everyone
and so kind of just getting getting
started will check first about the round
two topics especially in light of the
first round and so last week's kerbs
and the theme in general was really to
focus on kind of quote-unquote defects
or major things that you can do during
the roasting process that will really
degrade or influence quality
significantly and that kind of shifted
this week where we wanted to focus more
on what it would actually look like when
you were kind of dialing in a roast
where you're roasting so that you're
trying to get it a little better or make
minor changes but you're not drastically
changing anything there there's small
differences small tweaks that will
change the quality but not ruin the
roast which as some of you might have
seen maybe makes it a little tougher
because those changes on the cupping
form are not as noticeable or not as big
and so yeah the topics that we're kind
of gonna dive into today are just the
time of the roast matters the end
temperature in color kind of
relationships between time and
temperature and then really dig into all
of the three roasting stages and so the
coffee or the theoretical coffee that
we're using for these curves this week
was a Kenyan coffee a Kenyan double a
from Campbell County it's a coffee that
we bring in at Belzec brothers that were
familiar with and so it was kind of one
that we kind of know how it kind of
reacts and
changes as you roasts and so Devon if
you would like to introduce our
wonderful guest this week yeah so I get
the honor of introducing one of my good
friends mr. wrong so he you can know him
from a few different places you might
have met him at Roasters skill you might
have met him through out of his book um
he's an overall helpful guy with a
really really good string for bad jokes
which hopefully we will get
today his director coffee at Knossos
Familia and also the author of the great
book modulating the flavor profile of
coffee he also does some amazing online
courses I've heard pretty things about
his okawa course that he's recently been
doing but he's globally renowned so
let's welcome Rob
everybody thanks for having me today and
unfortunately Devon means that my jokes
are just not funny not that they're
necessarily surely not funny so well
definitely get some of those out I'm
sure you'll make a joke
in your present because I've traveled
with you you'll make a joke in your
presentation and it'll fall completely
flat and then you'll say oh won't make
that joke again and then the next day it
I'm excited and so kind of before we
dive into the round to answers we just
kind of wanted to clarify some of the
verbage of the wording we're gonna use
journey as we as we talk about the
curves and so specifically that the
roasting stages are roasting phases and
so if Rob if you could talk about these
just a little bit and what each one of
them actually is to you and how you
define them so that when you're
describing them the audience kind of has
an understanding of what you're talking
about yeah totally
so these stages are ones that I've
discussed with people for a long time
now and I'm gonna add a couple more
verbage wiesen aren't necessarily total
slide but we'll start with ones that are
so drying is the phase before color
change happens so from the very
beginning the roast on that doesn't mean
that all of the drying happens during
this phase in fact the coffee is drying
out the entire time with a rather large
amount of the moisture being released at
first crack but during this stage drying
is the thing that is happening where
there's not really a lot of chemical
reactions that are starting so that's
kind of what we're referring to when we
talk about dry
is everything from the beginning of the
roast up into yellowing point now
chemical reactions do have to start in
order to create yellowing so technically
the mayor dree action starts a little
bit earlier than yellow point but it's
really difficult to call something you
can't see even since all of us have
different thermocouples which give us
different temperature readouts there's
no way to just like pick a temperature
and say this is it so we go with the
first visual indicator that something
has happened so from yellowing point
then on until first crack the
predominant chemical reaction that's
happening is the Mayer dree action it
has a lower activation temperature than
caramelization does caramelization of
sucrose specifically and so we have
basically an on in somatic sugar
browning process starting from yellow
inning in running probably throughout
the entirety of the roast it does depend
on the coffee and how many proteins
amino acids and reducing sugars are
available but there's a likelihood that
it actually continues throughout the
entirety of the rest of the roast first
crack then is kind of the next wall
where we noticed something major is
happening or something different and you
know first crack is something that
Roasters have been noting for ages right
so because it's like oh suddenly it
sounds like popcorn difference happening
maybe we should pay attention to that
but basically at around first crack
there's a significant amount of water
vapor content that comes out of the
coffee scene and allows the heat to
start penetrating the see that causing
chemical reactions in a way it wasn't
able to before when all that water was
present and so when we refer to
development time we're really talking
about that very crucial time where the
water is leaving the core of the seed
and the chemical reactions are beginning
to happen in the core of the seed in
earnest and so that becomes our
discussion of development time and right
now development time is kind of looped
into just one general category it's not
first crack until the beginning of
second or first crack until first crack
it stops right now it's just kind of
talked about as the same category where
there is a secondary building a fresher
around second crack that we're not
really accounting for other terms that
I'm going to throw at you real quick a
turning point sometimes called tap
turnaround point is going to be the
point at which
bean temperature curve drops or bottoms
out you can see it there's the first dot
oh there you go oh yeah we have markup
on Zoom [Laughter]
[Laughter]
so that's turnaround point turnaround
point is not going to be it's important
but it's not important in the way that a
lot of people assign importance to it
okay so turning-point is going to be
very machine dependent it's going to be
dependent on the thermocouple thickness
and placement specifically so some
machines will have turned around
happened at a low temperature at 36
seconds so the machines will have
turnaround happen at a higher
temperature at two and a half minutes
and most of that is probe driven so if
you switch probes out in your machine
you'll get a different turning point so
I wouldn't get too hung up on that
especially if you're looking for one
machine to another machine when you're
looking for your own consistency's sake
I would look at the turnaround point and
this I'm only bringing this up because
it comes up in one of them so a higher
turn around will be problematic or it
could be a sign that something different
happened between batch protocol and so
you want to look at your turning point
always in connection to your max rate of
rise so if you have a too high of a
turning point but too low of a max rate
of rise you did something in your bat
between batch protocol that trigger
thermocouple into having a higher
turning point but if it's a high turning
point and a Lomax RoR it's likely that
the beans are taking the same journey
because the two kind of cancel out and
then you know we talked about charge
temperature the temperature which would
put the beans in and then drop
temperature is the terminology for the
temperature at which they are dropped
into the cooling then if it's a drum
roast or not cooling in chamber so yep
and so yeah what gets started kind of
just chatting about all the curves this
week and so just starting out once again
these are all of the five curves against
the baseline and then you'll see the the
cupping form on the bottom there and
yeah what gets started with the with the
first curve and so little drumroll for
this first curve this one was coffee B
and with this curve as I'm sure many of you
you
some wobbling going on and that was
purposeful um it's the idea behind this
group is kind of creating a wobbly rate
of rise and then also a longer yellowing
phase or Maillard reaction Maillard
reaction phase and so we will throw that
coupling form no it's on the top there
and then yeah this is a really
interesting curve because of the things
that you were talking about so if you
can kind of just speak to these wobbles
and what's going on with this one
yeah so there's a lot of kind of crazy
cool stuff going on let me bring our
annotation bar up here because you like
that might be useful and let me know if
you want me to go back to the one the
slide that shows the phases at the
bottom as well if you start to refer to
any of them yeah for sure
I may not actually be able to annotate
in this particular screen that I'm in
let me double check oh there we go [Laughter]
[Laughter]
all right so there's a couple things
worth looking at and I'm gonna start
kind of at this right-hand side and work
backwards just to kind of identify
because when we talk about roasting
especially when we're hitting metrics
and stuff like that the most important
thing is actually the less romantic
thing and its color right
so in color both whole beam and ground
is going to be a bigger driver of flavor
than most people and especially coffee
industry realize and so you know all of
the curve and stuff matters especially
if you're hitting the same whole bean
and ground color if you're not hitting
the same whole bean and ground color
then your point of departure is already
incredibly large right so we'll start
first by kind of talking about that
relationship here and one of the things
worth noting is on the chart that you
were given you have an in temperature
for the baseline of 400 degrees
Fahrenheit give or takes 400 point three
one which is about 204 degrees 0.6
centigrade for those tuning in from
basically every other country in the
world nobody and then 404 for the N
temperature on curve one which is about
two hundred and six point six degrees
centigrade so we're talking about two
degrees centigrade
up now on roasting machines there's
something interests
that happens which is the the thin piece
of metal that we've shoved into the
swirling batch organic material doesn't
necessarily tell us the temperature of
the swirling batch of organic material
right and so what we notice here in this
curve is that our rate of rise is
significantly higher than the baseline
this hopefully it shows up on everybody
but disappeared there there it's back
twice it's just a little lag it's cool right
right
and so with this rate of rise being
higher than the baseline rate of rise by
a significant margin my first question
when I saw this this curve was okay well
you know was it higher heat application
at the end of the roast and if you have
higher heat application at the end of
the roast the air temperature going
through the roasting chamber is going to
be hotter and that will cause the bean
temperature probe to swing hotter but
that doesn't necessarily mean that the
beans are following suit okay and so
there have been instances on multiple
different brands of machines that have
done this to where I've gotten up to a
seven degrees centigrade temperature
difference with the same color just
because I'm driving the roof slightly
differently at the end okay so my first
reaction when I saw that we were about
two degrees centigrade hotter at our end
temp was to assume that two degrees
centigrade was potentially just
meaningless and it was a probe error and
it was because we were driving with more
heat at the end so when you're actually
evaluating your own curves you know what
you have to be sure you're doing if you
have access to a color meter is checking
that whole bean and ground color
frequently because it is really really
important and because the thermocouple
will tell you the truth as long as you
can roast in the same way as soon as you
start roasting a different way it stops
telling you the same sort of data and so
if you've got a register that's just
kind of like oh a little slow and
then pumps up the gas a little bit
it could cause a rather large difference
in how the thermocouple reads so that
would be a one point to kind of look at
and here you can see that we actually do
have an all circle it's a little bit
more obvious we do actually have one
more point of color whole bean yeah
though this coffee did in fact
get a little bit darker and so that
slight greater darkness paired with the
fact that it's about the same
development time means that overall the
whole being and ground color is probably
gonna be just slightly darker because
development time tends to control so the
distance between beginning of first
crack and into the roast tends to
control the color spread between your
whole being and ground color so if you
have the same general Delta between your
whole being and ground so we went from 2
minutes and 25 on the baseline to 2
minutes and 24 on this curve 1 seconds
not going to cause any sort of
significant difference likely and so
that means we have the same development
time which means our Delta or a
difference in in color between the whole
beat and ground should be the same the
whole beam color is a little bit darker
therefore the ground color is also a
little bit darker so a lot of the flavor
difference that we're experiencing in
this coffee is going to be due primarily
to the fact that it's ever so slightly
darker now in addition to that we do see
a little bit longer in terms of the
Langly Ardrey action yeah and so the
marriage reaction goes from 3 minutes
and 44 on the baseline curve to 4
minutes and 18 and I've got a cheat
sheet I'm just not like playing stuff [Laughter]
and so with that longer time before
first crap what I would expect from this
coffee just in general and this is more
than a 15-second swing this is 30 second
Swing so you're starting to get in a
significant territory there so I would
say like okay this is you know probably
gonna taste a little bit more savoury a
little bit heavier aftertaste
potentially and we see that reflected in
the flavor notes with baked peach we do
get some of that creaminess kind of
coming in which only makes me think of
drinking Bailey's out of the shoe and
then you know some toast because that a
little bit of extra roast character yep
on the coffee so yeah so that that would
be kind of my my evaluation on on those
and then kind of I mean it's not a
factor that played into here but this is
something that Rob you had brought up
creeps and we first started chatting
about kind of like ideas behind this
competition and then some of the
reviewers brought up as well as like
these wobbles you have to be very
careful especially differences between
when you're looking at differences
between machines and so I kind of wanted
to just kind of dive into that a little
bit and talk about those differences and
curves and RR readings amongst machines
probes and and yeah just what's
important and what's not important so
I'm gonna pull this up which was a
previous research that you had done with
Ann Cooper one guest I guess on our
webinar last week and yeah if you could
just kind of chat with about this really
quickly there for sure so you know
there's certain assumptions in our
industry that are not factual that is
that all temperature measurements are
created equal and that all rate of rise
calculations are created equal right yep
so all of them are basically looking
through it's kind of like looking at
something through rose-colored glasses
or whatever color glasses particularly
have it's going to tinge everything else
and so the type of thermocouple you have
and the amount of noise that that
thermocouple generates is going to be
relevant because the beans are likely
taking a smoother trajectory if you see
your rate of rise going like up and down
up and down there's not a physical way
possible for the beans to actually be
doing that that is usually likely going
to be due to electrical interference
some sort of grounding issue having it
overly sensitive probe having the
program the wrong place you can get
interference like if you've got a
variable frequency drive on your machine
those actually produce slight magnetic
waves and so if you're running your your
cable next to a VFD run electric cable
you're going to actually be creating
your own magnetic interference so first
of all big wobbles or any sort of noise
that's induced in the system isn't going
to be reflective of what the beams are
actually doing so that would be one
thing yep
the second thing is it depends on how
much area reading so as long as your air
flows above your temperature so I'll do
it this way so
because I'm reversing your screen so
yeah so if you're holding a high air
temperature the beans are always going
to be rising to meet that air
temperature if your air temperature
wobbles a little bit it's still higher
than the bean temperature so you still
have positive heat energy transfer but
if your thermocouple is picking up a
little bit more of the air temperature
than it is beam temperature you might
see those wobbles look exaggerated where
the coffee is roasting along and gaining
energy and gaining energy so what I
usually recommend for people is like if
you see a rate of rise that freaks you
out cup it in a blind triangulation
first because just cuz it doesn't look
you know we'll make the joke Instagram
will go right where people post profiles
and they have to look a certain way or
you could just get kind of dragged by
all the commenters on you know Facebook
groups or whatever posting which is a
big mistake unless if you do that really
you know if if you see that wobble and
it concerns you if you can't taste the
difference in a blind triangulation like
so you set up three triangles and you
can't taste it then it's likely fine and
I say that not to give you an out like
the goal is for you to try to have a
really well controlled roast but if you
can't have a really well controlled
roast you should always cup it and make
sure that it actually tastes off and
it's not just a temperature measurement
issue so that would be the first thing
here you can see we've got three
different what looks like three very
different roasts and because they were
three roasts that we're done on three
very different machines the red line
being off of a luring the blue line is
Diedrich I believe probe at okay oh this
is really different one we did okay
boring and then you've got the Mason
direct as the yellow yellowish orange I
was saying it was from our original
experiment which looks even crazier
because it was a you do probe at and the
probe is just a really odd spot that one
okay I can move my annotation bar that
actually helps a lot so um three
different types of thermocouples in
three different placements
and so the luring to is running a kind
of a crazy odd it's a fully automated
curve and so if you actually saw the
control it would be like like it's just
automatically doing itself it doesn't
actually look that crazy but you get the
general so what we're what we're doing
in this instance is we're lining up the
events at which temperature changes
happen or color changes or physical
changes happen so that they're hitting
first crack at the same time they're
hitting yellowing at the same time I
missed that entirely and then they're
ending at the same time and they have
the same whole beam and ground color the
same weight loss percentage and all that
sort of thing and we we've done over
1900 triangulations and the the pass
rate is it just below 30 percent of the
time people are actually able to pick
out the difference between these three
machines despite the fact that they look
wildly different um I was kind of hoping
it was our first time the N and I did
this is not the second one second just
because on that one when we we did it
with a Diedrich and we had a really fun
time trying to get that one to do what
we wanted because the pilot light was
tuned in too big on it and we didn't
want to change the settings because we
were borrowing time on the machine and
so we actually had to on-off the pilot
light about it was pretty rad so you
know but the the the idea of just
basically being like all of the flavors
that we're looking for in coffee are
happening not because of some sort of
magical contact with some sort of
machine metal or system or you know even
to a certain extent airflow they're
they're happening because the beans have
X amount of heat over X amount of time
and they're hitting these chemical
reactions within the same time the
chemical reactions are allowed to happen
in the same way and at the end you've
got the same color and because of that
the coffee's taste the same to the point
where professional couplers can only
taste the difference
around you know 30 percent of the time
which is a round random chance to be
perfectly honest yeah you know then I'm
seeing random questions pop up yeah
smoke evacuation you do want to make
sure you're getting smoke out of the
drum so if we had an old bat we put it
on the aroma lock setting on the wheel
that would probably change things up a
bit for us so as long as you're doing
basic things like you've got enough
airflow movement to take chaff and smoke
out of the machine you know then you're
you're in a pretty good way but you know
the general idea is as long as you're
hitting these general goals properly and
you're doing so in a way that's not you
know absolutely driving crazy you're
probably gonna get the same result so
taking that back step to the curve that
we did on on step number one here you
will see that there is oh yeah that
works perfect sweet and so you'll see
like is is there wobble yes there's
definitely some wobble on this you could
chalk this up to for example this would
look very similar to if you had a small
batch size your roaster and you're a
little bit unsure of how to drive with
that small batch yeah and so you get
these little wobbles where you're like
look nope that was a little bit too much
power there but generally speaking
they're hitting the same sort of
categories and you know in this instance
it wouldn't have been a complete match
because of the difference in colour but
you know that's kind of what I would
chalk some of this up to is more airflow
interference at the world competitions
so when they're roasting like decent if
you look at the curves that we have on
our website the winning curves have a
tendency to look like this what's going
on yeah it's that that air air temp
often is what's being read in mixed with
the beans yeah yeah yeah and that's why
it's important to talk to people like
manufacturers or machine it's in your
area about where to locate the
thermocouple if you don't like for yours
is currently
yep there's some great resources for
people that have opinions about that so
there was a question from lady Tijuana
San Diego would curve one potentially
have spicy or bursty notes so this one I
think that the because the color
differential isn't massive and the
temperature difference isn't massive I
think that that roasty characteristic is
showing up his toast
yeah in terms of the notation that would
be my my takeaway from it yeah yeah yeah
and I I agree I agree with you Rob there
and then two questions about rate of
rise one was just addressing rate of
rise drop at first cracked like how
would you interpret that should should
you freak out
and then somebody else asked if the rate
of rise bumps back up at three instead
of gently going downwards can that be a
pro too like for example if the
gas isn't increased oh so if it just
kind of comes back up on its own accord
yeah so there's a couple different
things with the rate of rise like the
the you know craziness that happens
there most that is going to be water
vapor content that's being released the
big question I have that I don't know
the answer to is we know how the water
vapor content being released around
first crack affects the Perot because we
see that the thing that we have
difficulty with is how is this actually
affecting the beans because our
temperature measurement of the beans is
not perfect as described before we've
got this thin piece of metal that's got
a lot of air flow so I would say that it
depends on your machine type now you
know we're Scott and I've talked about
this and where we agree cuz I don't know
if you all know Scott and I are pretty
fully and we had a chance to try to chat
about roasting it's like you know I
generally tried to tell people like you
know if you're trying to do a production
rose and you won't want it to be easy to
match the constant declining is probably
gonna be your best bet because you don't
have anything weird that you have to try
and reproduce now that being said I'm a
little bit more wiggly and laissez-faire
in some senses then I would say he he
probably is on
on the matter and it depends on your
racing machine the center of the
thermocouple the bigger the the drop
down and and flick back can be because
of water vapor and how that's affecting
things I have a slide for that but it'd
be probably heard for I'll present it
later at the end I guess when we don't
so gonna have to swap presentations
jumping forth but yeah you know
basically if you've run the same one
roast with three different thermocouples
in it there are times where you can see
some weirdness happening on a really
thin thermocouple and the three
millimeter and six millimeter probes
don't see anything at all and so I think
that you know for people like on the
Loring's which are using 1.5 mil
thermocouples and I'm not sure if
anybody else is using quite that thin
yet but you all can correct me if I'm
wrong so if you're on like a 1.5 mil
thermocoupler sub - no thermal
millimeter thermocouple then you know if
you see it it's probably just that it's
really really sensitive and I'm less
likely to believe that the beans are
doing it if you see a dramatic decline
on a 6 mil probe something weird is
going on and you should be probably a
little bit more in tune to what's
happening and maybe control that a
little bit better so part of it is
reading I would say you know and then
you know if it comes back up on you
once again that is partially dependent
on thermocouple and it depends on how
you're roasting - like for me when I'm
roasting darker I expect to see it come
back up because that's just how it is
for me when I rose darker from roasting
lighter maybe I don't expect that so
okay cool so we're just jumping back so
once again yeah that first roast curves
on the crux coffee was coffee B as to be
chatted and then we'll move on to curve
- so curve curve - this one actually is
pretty straightforward really this is
just a much shorter development time or
develop the time ratio at the end and
the correct answer the coffee that
matches with this curve would be coffee
see and so I'll pull up the notes yeah I
check kind of the influence of that
shorter development
yeah they were really nice to everybody
on this one with this I don't see that
would never pass up an opportunity to
shame but that's fine so anyway you know
this is not only a lower in temperature
but it's also a shorter development time
and a lighter whole beam color so all of
those combo DUP as we discussed the last
slide so sure development time means the
difference between our whole beam and
ground color is bigger and so if our
whole beam color is slightly lighter
than the ground color is significantly
lighter that's paired with a lower end
temperature and so we're getting into
this kind of under roasted sort of
category with this coffee not
necessarily underdeveloped because two
minutes dev time or right about two
minutes development time because we're
in a minute and 51 is still really
reasonable that's a totally fine
development time depending on your water
and style of roasting that you do so
it's not necessarily underdeveloped the
issue is that it's a little bit under
roasted and so that's where we start to
see this vegetal characteristic come in
with the snap pea the tomato goes from
like a sweet tomato jam to just a
straight-up Roma tomato and you get that
sort of Kenyan bisque sort of
characteristic yep if you've ever had a
really really early tomato a Kenyan
that's just a little bit under and it
tastes more like soup then yeah yeah
otherwise everything else is pretty
straightforward on this one yep yep
so yeah roast group 2 that matches with
coffee see and then moving on to curve 3
which is a really interesting curve
curve curve 3 that matches with coffee a
and the idea behind this one was
creating a long development time ratio
and a much shorter yellowing period
which is pretty pretty funky and so Rob
will wrap up dive into that
yeah and I think it's worth noting here
too so if you don't mind showing the
slide with all of them on it so we can
highlight how curved three looks in
relation to all the developments which
color it is so go back to sorry you're
just there right there yeah no no it was
that one right there so I'm gonna draw
an arrow here to the turning point for
the green one which is number three you
can see we've got a higher turning point
and then it kinda lags below here and
then shoots on up alright so we've got a
higher turning point than our baseline
and I think that's our baseline at the
very bottom there is the baseline the
lowest curve it's actually hidden in
there okay so it's in the mix yeah so
we've got a on point and then a low rate
of rise so that would mean you know kind
of starting from scratch so now and go
all the way back to where we were sorry
so with that with that low or was that
normal Turning Point and then the low
max rate of rise that means that we were
just can't came in underpowered right we
didn't hit our target in terms of where
we wanted to turn and so then there's
this heavy push on the part of the
burner to try and catch back up which is
kind of what we see reflected here and
basically a large plateau someone's just
driving the burner out and has the power
to do it which is you know great they do
end up getting to color change late and
then they continue to accelerate and end
up getting to first crack early because
they haven't really controlled their
burner quite appropriately so we've
gotten a first crack a little early
which means expectations changed to
being maybe a little bit lighter and
aftertaste and a little bit sound
potentially more floral however we then
go into a development time that is
almost 30 seconds longer in development time
time
so we are lengthening here draw that in
so by lengthening development time we
are causing the Delta between the whole
beam and ground to become smaller we end
up with matching color which means the
interior matching whole beam color sari
which means the interior color is darker
so we actually have as a result a darker
ground coffee color we have a longer
development time which means some of
those volatile acids that we might want
are starting to disappear a little bit
which is why you see a negative on
acidity you've got a negative on
sweetness because there's a greater
degree of caramelization sometimes when
we talk about caramel especially in the
u.s. we just think sweet yet we're Kabul
is actually a very bitter compound and
so more caramelize ation more sugar
binding tends to create an experience of
more bitterness and not more sweetness
depending if you're really sensitive to
acidity and do not like it then more
carmelization usually means lower
acidity which is why some people I think
find it less astringent and would
potentially call it more sweet but
generally speaking less sucrose because
we have more caramelization not that as
much sucrose to begin with and rose to
coffee and because of the faster time
reaching first crack that's why we've
got a list of negative body as well so
flavor notes you've got the peach you
got the tomato like you got the
grapefruit but then we start to getting
into dark chocolate and some spice yeah
and all of this hitting the same in
temperature because you know in
temperature and color are somewhat
intertwined yep I know I think you
explained it perfectly and then yeah
just like that that movement from that
that chocolate a dark chocolate just has
to do from the baseline to this this
coffee a it's just that development of
those sugars like pushing them a little
farther at that during that development
stage so yeah and you touched on it so
yes yeah and then you start moving a
little too fast and you're like I need
to back it off and then things happen so
cool and so once again that was roast
curb 3 and that matches with coffee eh
so we'll dive into the final two curves
starting with curve for curve for the
correct answer was coffee II and for
this one we had a slightly higher start
temperature and then also a shorter time
overall here but the the the phase is
the percentage - within the phase are
pretty similar though since it's a
shorter time all those are kind of
shorter than from the baseline um so you
kind of have this like squished curve
with a little bit higher of a start
temperature and a higher turning point
so if Rob you wanted to chat a little
bit about this one
absolutely so when we get going on here
and this is kind of where we talked
about sometimes things will cancel out
so we've got a higher turning point
because the higher charge but then it
looks like whoever was driving this
roast if it was real roast then used a
lower heat application because we've got
a lower max rate of rise compared to a
reference so we got a higher turn and a
lower max rate of rise which means they
were trying to kind of get the ship
somewhat back on course but they never
did a big enough adjustment so you
probably would have wanted to see the
max rate of rise come down here to get
that to work out yep so you know color
change we get to just a little bit early
by about well less than 20 seconds so
you know and this is the thing there's
there's I don't wanna say the
diminishing returns but within a certain
range of time it's very difficult to
taste differences and so you know plus
or minus 10 seconds I'm generally not
worried about plus or minus 20 yeah
we're I mean we might be in a range
before somebody might start to notice a
difference and so like when we've done
the candy taste of roasting system stuff
with an when we're matching profiles
across machines we're 4 plus or minus 10
so there's gonna be some variation here
potentially but it's still probably not
gonna be noticeable from a customer
standpoint like the customers not gonna
be like you got to yellow faster
probably not gonna happen being
realistic getting to first crack a
little bit faster is probably gonna
accentuate that floral character in the
coffee so you know eight minutes isn't
necessarily going to be too fast to get
to first crack there's a Kenyan coffee
that we have at our facility right now
that I think we're hitting seven and a
half minutes for a first crack and we're
doing about a minute and half to have
time off that so we've got it like a
nine minute roast overall but in this
instance you know this coffee were just
this is faster than our goal this is
faster than our baseline so there's
gonna be changes based on that and it
shows up in the taste notes as you know
long TV floral that sort of thing really
high citrus our development time is
pretty dang close the same it's about
nine seconds shorter which is not going
to be really significant unless you're
teetering on the edge of underdeveloped
anyway which it doesn't look like we are
you know we still have that nice citrus
although there is some astringency
marked on there which could be related
to just overly high acid for this coffee
so maybe that nine seconds made a
difference you know colors right on the money
money
in temperature is pretty much right on
the money just it's a very small decimal
point higher but same color same
development time basically same in
temperature relatively similar
development time just a little bit more
bright and acidic off of that awesome
and so moving forward from here I had
you I had some of your notes here but
you told me you touched on all this Rob
is consistent folks yeah so just one
more time Rose curve for is coffee II
which brings us then to curve five which
then the only answer left is curve D and
so curve five was kind of in some ways
the a little bit opposite of curve for
but it doesn't necessarily mean that the
results are opposite just because
there's more than there's things that
are happening during the roast that
aren't going to create opposites and so
you have a low time surplus a lower
starting temperature for this curve
which then you have a lower turning
point and then in the end you kind of
have a little bit of a longer time and a
slightly lower end temperature and so if
you kind of want to dive into this one
Rob oh yeah and you saying that reminded
me of one thing that I failed to touch
on the last one it's just like a super
quick thing so cool with with higher
charge temperatures there is a potential
of introducing some roasting defects
tipping or sorry not tipping per se but
scorching skort which will disappear at
the end of the roast so you won't be
able to see it visually so you have to
either notice it in the site class or
notice it when you're pulling the trier
early stages roast pre browning because
if you charge too hot in the metal on
your machines too hot it's going to
cause a little burnt spots to appear on
the outside the seed which will cause
the coffee to taste normal but with a
burnt character kind of linger in the
background which you could also describe
as that spiciness as you described a
higher charge temp so there's a
significantly higher charge temp as
opposed this one which has a
significantly lower charge Tim yep so
maybe that astringent ste came from that
characteristic as well so please note
that you do have to pull your tyre early
too especially if you're doing something
like that you're not accustomed to doing
on that coffee or that machine just to
make sure you're not causing scorching
once you're comfortable with the coffee
maybe you don't have to but it's a good
idea to make sure that you're not
scorching by overheating the metal and
charging too hot if you notice scorching
where you formerly did not have
scorching it might mean that your
ventilation is plugged up and so it's
causing low air flow which is causing
the drum metal to absorb more heat
because there's less air flow moving
across it so yeah keep keep an eye on
stuff folks leave your stuff in your machine
machine
it's kovat times wash your hands but
also please clean your machines alright
curve number five so this one has higher body
body
higher acidity higher sweetness and is
lower in color
and you'll notice that the development
time isn't particularly that far off I
mean we're going from 25 to 32 for a 7
second difference nothing major
um you will see that we are you know
pretty much right in line there and the
only other one that went that slow was
Kurd that went lighter was curve 2 which
was vegetal and this one isn't quite
vegetal know which is why we have some
of the notes kind of changing the way to
do so we have a lighter color we have a
lighter in temperature but it's not that
light we have slightly longer
development time so what we probably are
seeing is that we've got a little bit
lighter whole bean color but we've got a
little bit darker ground color just
slightly and that's kind of what's
keeping everything in balance yep we do
get to first crack a little bit later so
we do have a little bit more time pre
first crack we're probably seeing a
little bit heavier aftertaste coming
from that maybe a little bit more
savoriness which is why this you know
peach shows up in a really huge way and
that creaminess once again shows up that
longer time the first crack is denoted
by that maybe some of these caramel
notes have something to do with that as
well botanical so we do have some
florals happening we still have some
great fruit happening but the real the
real ones to me that are kind of showing
up are this creamy characteristic as
well as having some spice I think you
know the citrus is really represented as
this peach and this grapefruit which are
more defined and less kind of ethereal
yep yeah yeah and so yeah just to to
round this out that was curve five and
that matches with curve D which kind of
rounds out all five curves and before we
really jump into kind of any more
questions and answers Rob you said you
had those slides about three yes we
could definitely grab yeah I think that
was super close I think you actually you
may have already shared that with Taylor
and I previously folks
really cool folks to see pardon me while
I make my I'm concentrating face here
yeah and so I'll just speak to all
everybody who's watching
so as Rob is dialing up that photo if
you have any questions about these curves
curves
once again as Taylor and I had had
mentioned last week feel free to a ask a
question here but if we don't get to
that question feel free to email either
of us
my email is Eric at Bally's a Crothers
comm da LZ a/c brothers comm and
Taylor's is Taylor at crapster comm so
we have Rob's screen up now I forgive me
I stole your screen you sure did it's a
lot of power alright so anyways yeah
this is one roast on one machine and the
blue line represents a one point five
millimeter thermocouple these are the
same manufacturer of thermocouples same
materials same type and same placement
they're all within and spaced about yay
big without actually touching each other
so we've got the 1.5 mil thermocouple
we've got the yellow which represents
the 3 millimeter thermocouple and the
red which represents a 6 millimeter
curve probe and you can see because of
this and this is why a lot of times we
as consultants have a hard time saying
like well here's what I would say your
max rate of rise should be or here's
what your minimum rate of rise should be
or what your temperature was it oh good
ok well that works great is because it's
very probe dependent right and depending
on placement so these are located in the
drop door of a roaster as well so the if
they were up in the drum or in the
faceplate it would be a little bit
different reading as well you'll notice
here like to really send them a couple
Peaks out at a higher max rate of rise
turns around at a significantly lower
temperature and this is in Fahrenheit so
I apologize to those who were in
centigrade so but then it rebounds and
becomes the highest temperature so the
thinner the thermocouple typically the
larger the scale the thicker the
thermocouple this more compressed to the
scale okay and you'll see that too with
the rate of rise so here you can see
this is right where we hit first
crack right where my mouse is now and
you can see here the the thinner
thermocouple drops really significantly
and then kind of bounces just a little
bit oh wow it's giving me an opportunity
give me all sorts options so you'll see
that drop off and then kind of rebound
just a little bit whereas the six mill
and the three mill probe and three Mills
probably the most common so the yellow
line is probably the most common type of
thermocouple that's used at least in
terms of diameter you can see those
those don't register it at all right so
I feel like that's a significant thing
and what's that I'm gonna give up screen
share so I give up all these admin
powers so Eric if you want to throw your
screen back up you betcha other than
just our faces yeah so so that's that's
all five curves there and we are kind of
coming up on the hour so we probably
have time for a few questions here let's
do it let's answer some questions Devon
have you yeah there's a quick one on
ones yeah yeah well there was a quick
one for for roast curve five it was
basically just asking why it has higher
acidity yep yep so we'll go back to that
one why does Roux screw five have higher
C off the lighter color yeah yeah
so color does impact that as well mm-hmm
so and that's where can get that's where
Duffy can get tricky so you see maybe
like a longer roast and you see like
okay maybe that should maybe then have a
lower acidity but yeah this lighter
color and this one is definitely playing
apart yeah 100% to ones that I think you
can answer pretty quickly one was how do
you how would you manage to have so much
control with a Kenyan coffee after first
crack like I know that that's a general
problem but maybe you don't talk about
the Kenyans these are computer generated [Laughter]
[Laughter]
ya know Kent Kenyans can be really
tricky and so it depends on which style
of roasting so
it's it's a lot easier to have a
constantly declining rate of rise if you
roast faster and so if you have a higher
peak rate of rise and you're coming down
kind of like already coming down at that
general angle it can be easier to
maintain that angle all the way down to
the end of the roast so you know but
there are trade-offs to that like in
coffee is very difficult to both have
your cake and eat it as well so I think
that it is you know it is difficult to
control and it is a lot of water vapor
coming out and I would say the biggest
thing is make sure you're cupping it and
finding the flavors that you want and as
long as you're finding the flavors that
you want depending on where your proba
set it might just be bad probe placement
or wrong you know thickness or something
along those lines and then just kind of
chalk it up like well this is this is
how it's going to be and not worry too
much about it but if you if you want to
get that like really really you know
great constant declining sort of thing
and have control over what's happening
there you just have to come in with a
lot more energy by roasting faster in
general and then allowing that to just
kind of continue the fall down so it
looks gradual because it's the fall that
it's been doing the whole time if that
makes sense
my friend Michel de Renard in Copenhagen
who's a wonderful friend as well as a
amazing coffee consultant sometimes says
to me the higher the mountain the easier
the fall which I think is uh you know
referring to the max rate of rise I
think he's you know might be on to
something with that you know it's it's
uh yeah said that would be one way the
other way too is just kind of making
sure you're coming in with enough power
and leaving your burner on longer at a
higher level than what you normally
would and then using a decline feature
now the problem being if your probe is
reading more water than it is beans than
you inadvertently might over roast your beans
one more question Bevan sure I mean if
we're just gonna do one yeah that's
tough I know I got more time
well then start dialling him up then
there was an interesting one from Martin
Trejo that says is it possible to have a
darker interior being covered than an
exterior I've only done it twice it was
a white rose oh no no no so if it's
light roast it's almost impossible okay
so now what they might be referring to
so if you cross section of beam if you
cut it in half it can look like the
interior is slightly darker than the
exterior and that's because the coffee
doesn't store sugars evenly throughout
the seed like we often think about
coffee as being monolithic unfortunately
where the reality is it's a lot more
chaotic than that every seed even from
the same tree is going to have a
different amount of each chemical
composition content all right it's all
kind of mess now where it was on the
branch how much sunlight that particular
part got how ripe it got how it went
through processing where it was at the
fermentation tank there's a lot of
variability in coffee as much as we try
to make it not variable and that even
extends to the seed we think about the
seed is being monolithic but the reality
is the coffee's gonna store sugars in
different places and so on some coffee
seeds the seed might have more sugars on
the outside some it might have more
interior and sugars what causes browning
so when you cut a bean in half in
cross-section it's sometimes you'll see
these bands of sugar which would look
like bands of darkness it doesn't mean
that it's roasted more in the core than
it does on the surface coffee can only
roast from the outside in there's no
magical form of heat transferred that
allows heat to penetrate the inside
first and then roast outward whether it
be convection conduction or radiation
like radiation is how the Sun heats the
earth the Earth's core isn't hot because
of the Sun it's hot because of all the
immense pressure and everything else
going on right so all of them heat the
outside which then go to the middle so
the whole bean and ground color now if
we're talking that whole being in ground
color the whole bean is almost always
going to be darker than the ground by a
margin the only time that that has not
been the case is when I've been doing
really really dark roast
Sumatra is for clients and I mean like
really dark roast and really long
development times there have been a
couple instances where we've had darker
ground colors than whole bean and that's
even at a very fine grind setting which
is remarkable so that's that's my two
Corina Fernandez asks is it wise to add
heat to a roast once rate of rice starts
declining especially if it isn't hitting
the baseline curve mmm that is a good
question so I am not opposed to adding
Heat later on in the roast especially
depending on how things are set up so if
I'm doing a smaller batch size my burner
application looks more like a mountain
or a plateau where I'm climbing up and
then hitting it and then climbing back
down part of the reason for that is
because I'm going to be utilizing the
amount of heat that's naturally stored
inside the roaster to kind of hit my
first part of the curve so it's
basically like having a really long soak
at the beginning and then stepping up
and then stepping back down toward the
end and so there are are instances in
which I'm not starting high burner and
then going to low burner you know kind
of all the time
now if you notice yourself falling
behind I would say that you're better off
off
adding burner if it's like early stages
in the roast you could definitely add
more burner and I wouldn't worry as much
about that especially in the early
stages like the air temperatures already
still much hotter than the coffee the
coffee is already roasting as fast as it
potentially can so you're not really
gonna change a lot that's going on
especially if we're talking pre
yellowing before chemical reactions and
started even in the Maori action might
be able to add heat energy into the
system and not be causing an issue now
once you get kind of at the end it's
gonna potentially give you some squirrel
elitists that you're not wanting and so
I would be very careful to add heat at
the end of the roast I would probably
avoid doing it um just because if you
add heat especially post first crack you
have a higher chance of causing the
thermocouple to skew up higher or down
lower than what you would normally hit
which means it becomes a less beneficial
predictor of in color and so if you have
like higher burner at the end of the
roast than normal that's we're gonna see
the 10
your skew up and you're gonna potentially drop it to light because the
potentially drop it to light because the beans will have roasted yet that's a
beans will have roasted yet that's a great question yeah thank you for asking
great question yeah thank you for asking it um so I think we should probably plug
it um so I think we should probably plug next week's event and then if we want to
next week's event and then if we want to continue it questions we can yeah sure
continue it questions we can yeah sure plug plug next week and then thank you
plug plug next week and then thank you everyone for joining us for roast ID
everyone for joining us for roast ID this is a new event we've this is our
this is a new event we've this is our first time doing it it's got a bit of an
first time doing it it's got a bit of an idea for SCA and then now became an
idea for SCA and then now became an online event that's global and we've had
online event that's global and we've had more participants than we ever could
more participants than we ever could have had at impersonates
have had at impersonates yeah we have our last round next week
yeah we have our last round next week competition opens on Wednesday it closes
competition opens on Wednesday it closes against a 24 hour window and then we'll
against a 24 hour window and then we'll have it again with Joe Morocco closing
have it again with Joe Morocco closing it out with us so that will be dumpling
it out with us so that will be dumpling you've probably watched him on YouTube
you've probably watched him on YouTube videos with the cafe in port no City and
videos with the cafe in port no City and then now I don't want to say the wrong
then now I don't want to say the wrong company made I don't know to say it
company made I don't know to say it properly but I believe its own list and
properly but I believe its own list and B's listing leisler Eisler well this is
B's listing leisler Eisler well this is embarrassing but come with questions
embarrassing but come with questions ready but yeah we're looking forward
ready but yeah we're looking forward also Eric will be announced who
also Eric will be announced who wondering yeah so we're we are going to
wondering yeah so we're we are going to announce actually the the winners next
announce actually the the winners next week is well we're posting a top 10
week is well we're posting a top 10 leaderboard and so be sure to tune in
leaderboard and so be sure to tune in next day for the round 3 especially if
next day for the round 3 especially if you've been competing in both rounds but
you've been competing in both rounds but even if you haven't if you've got a good
even if you haven't if you've got a good chunk right this week and get a good
chunk right this week and get a good chunk next right week you never know and
chunk next right week you never know and so yeah and we'll have prizes for the
so yeah and we'll have prizes for the top 10 people placing the top 10 so tune
top 10 people placing the top 10 so tune in for that okay cool well thank you
in for that okay cool well thank you everyone I see all the things from
everyone I see all the things from everyone thank you rob we really
everyone thank you rob we really appreciate it
appreciate it yep my pleasure no now it's way harder
yep my pleasure no now it's way harder for me to find the questions that people
for me to find the questions that people had so second you just lost all those
had so second you just lost all those but then I get to see all the thank-yous
but then I get to see all the thank-yous so it's true
and thanks everybody for coming hanging yeah definitely thank you
hanging yeah definitely thank you especially everyone who who competed
especially everyone who who competed everyone who joined us during this
everyone who joined us during this webinar really appreciate it it's
webinar really appreciate it it's awesome to see so many people oh okay
awesome to see so many people oh okay this one this one I think is interesting
this one this one I think is interesting so how would Rob approach this type of
so how would Rob approach this type of challenge himself I tried looking at
challenge himself I tried looking at everything in balance and got the wrong
everything in balance and got the wrong answers I just checked my earlier notes
answers I just checked my earlier notes and found that looking at the curves
and found that looking at the curves without trying to match the coffee
without trying to match the coffee descriptions was spot-on
descriptions was spot-on so like if you were to break this down
so like if you were to break this down and say next week what's what should
and say next week what's what should people kind of break it down as yeah I
people kind of break it down as yeah I mean for me and this is just in terms of
mean for me and this is just in terms of like matching coffees in general yep I'm
like matching coffees in general yep I'm always gonna look at the objective notes
always gonna look at the objective notes before I look at the subjective notes
before I look at the subjective notes mmm so the first thing from you would be
mmm so the first thing from you would be probably looking at color readings and
probably looking at color readings and those in relation to in temperature and
those in relation to in temperature and development time and if there's rate of
development time and if there's rate of rise weirdness around that so like I
rise weirdness around that so like I would kind of look at that as first and
would kind of look at that as first and then I would look at the markers in
then I would look at the markers in terms of body acidity sweetness and
terms of body acidity sweetness and those sorts of things that of your I'd
those sorts of things that of your I'd spend the majority of my focus looking
spend the majority of my focus looking at those in relation to the curves and
at those in relation to the curves and then I would also look at the flavor
then I would also look at the flavor notes and then try to kind of understand
notes and then try to kind of understand that in relation to how all those other
that in relation to how all those other things were playing so that'd be the
things were playing so that'd be the direction that I would work at it and
direction that I would work at it and you know for better or worse they
you know for better or worse they followed a lot of the materials in my
followed a lot of the materials in my book about what mayor thinks if you had
book about what mayor thinks if you had the opportunity to read through that
the opportunity to read through that just assume that they're just assuming
just assume that they're just assuming I'm correct which is never the right
I'm correct which is never the right choice but there they are making they
choice but there they are making they have to make some assumptions because
have to make some assumptions because this isn't straight yeah yep these are
this isn't straight yeah yep these are assumptions yep yeah so you know that's
assumptions yep yeah so you know that's kind of how I would look through things
kind of how I would look through things yep
yep that's a good question last one and it
that's a good question last one and it was asked a few times throughout the
was asked a few times throughout the webinar and altitude while roasting
webinar and altitude while roasting when what impact does that happen it
when what impact does that happen it it's it's a big one
it's it's a big one usually with altitude you end up not
usually with altitude you end up not getting as much air density and you get
getting as much air density and you get a little bit more difficulty
a little bit more difficulty transmitting heat via convection which
transmitting heat via convection which is the primary means of heat transfer
is the primary means of heat transfer and so a lot of the people that I've met
and so a lot of the people that I've met that roasted altitude or any of the
that roasted altitude or any of the times I've roasted at altitude for
times I've roasted at altitude for clients it tends to be a little bit of a
clients it tends to be a little bit of a struggle to push the heat energy into
struggle to push the heat energy into the coffee in the same way now the
the coffee in the same way now the events like yellowing and first crack
events like yellowing and first crack and all that because we're heating the
and all that because we're heating the coffee so quickly it kind of creates its
coffee so quickly it kind of creates its own interior atmosphere like it's under
own interior atmosphere like it's under you know 11 12 atmospheres of pressure
you know 11 12 atmospheres of pressure interior so the fact that you're at a
interior so the fact that you're at a couple thousand feet probably isn't that
couple thousand feet probably isn't that big of a deal to the coffee seed so I
big of a deal to the coffee seed so I don't expect massive changes in terms of
don't expect massive changes in terms of when these events may happen but what I
when these events may happen but what I would expect to be different is the
would expect to be different is the amount of heat energy you have to throw
amount of heat energy you have to throw at the coffee to get it to do that and
at the coffee to get it to do that and so I would expect probably just having
so I would expect probably just having to lower batch size run more burner than
to lower batch size run more burner than normal be cognizant of your airflow make
normal be cognizant of your airflow make sure you're not running too much airflow
sure you're not running too much airflow because the faster the airflow the
because the faster the airflow the harder time you're gonna have heating it
harder time you're gonna have heating it and so if you're running a really really
and so if you're running a really really high air speed on your fan as well as
high air speed on your fan as well as being at altitude it's just gonna be a
being at altitude it's just gonna be a real struggle to push that coffee so you
real struggle to push that coffee so you may want to think about having it toned
may want to think about having it toned down just a little bit at least in the
down just a little bit at least in the beginning of the roast and then if you
beginning of the roast and then if you want to open your airflow up toward the
want to open your airflow up toward the end to get better control that's
end to get better control that's definitely a possibility so that would
definitely a possibility so that would be my expectations yeah awesome
be my expectations yeah awesome well thank you so much wrong thanks Eric
well thank you so much wrong thanks Eric you rub the example buddy who can this
you rub the example buddy who can this was an awesome webinar I look forward to
was an awesome webinar I look forward to seeing everybody next week yeah yeah
seeing everybody next week yeah yeah it's good to see a lot of friends on
it's good to see a lot of friends on here too that I it's like being at SU
here too that I it's like being at SU but without all the bad Convention
but without all the bad Convention Center food we're like I just paid $20
Center food we're like I just paid $20 for pizza and it's really disappointing
without the hangovers so that's at least for me I'm getting too old for that
for me I'm getting too old for that stuff
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