know, which is a part of the programming experience.
experience.
>> Yeah. There was a huge amount of guilt
cuz right you destroy several weeks of
work and you know it was because you
rushed or you did something stupid or
you made a
>> unwise choice.
>> What can you tell me about the
programming involved in that?
>> So it's literally machine language.
>> So machine so it's not even not assembly
yet because there was no assembler built
in. So I should have wrote an assembler
written an assembler as my first task
but I wasn't that clever. So
>> how hard is that to do?
>> Trivial and it's just one of those
things that sticks. I think you do it so
many times. You know, if I give you a C
issue, there are certain syntactic
issues in C that you're never going to
forget and get wrong. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's just one of those like
>> what are then the limitations of
programming in machine code as a programmer?
programmer?
>> The biggest issue is you have to write
completely sequentially because at least
in that variant 6502, you can't add
things later. You can only add things on
the end. So it's like programming a tape
in a way.
>> What was the most complicated thing
you've built with machine language?
uh that game would be I mean in assembly
language I've done a fair bit of
complicated stuff but in actual machine
language I think that game would be the
only thing I've actually
>> I literally built a game
>> not a great game but it worked.
>> Okay. All right. And then you erased it.
>> I did.
>> All right. When did you first fall in
love with programming? When you figured
out like this is a this is something special.
special.
>> I think there was two stages for me. I
always knew immediately that I was
fascinated with these machines. from the
TRS80 Model 1. It's all I wanted to do
is ride my bike back there and have more
time with it. And I did that, you know,
to wear out my welcome as much as I
could. And the other revelation came, I
think, about second or third year
university when I realized I love
programming, but I have no idea what I'm
going to do. Am I going to make the 12
flash on a VCR somewhere, or am I going
to go work on an operating system? I
have absolutely no idea what I'm going
to do postgraduation,
but I love what I do. And so, I think
that was a lot of consolation. And it's
like it doesn't really matter what I'm
doing at this point cuz I kind of love
doing it. So
>> So you'll figure it out. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> As long as you're following this kind of
feeling that's
>> I knew I was in the right area finally. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> All right. You dropped out of high school.
school.
>> Yeah. Not the smartest move.
>> Okay. But you ended up going back to
school and being very successful at
school and just in general successful as
a programmer, as a developer, as a
creator of software. Uh how were you
able to find your way? Can you tell that
journey of dropping out and then finding
your way back?
>> There's no moment when I dropped out.
You just go less and less and less until
you realize it's going to be
embarrassing if I show up cuz I haven't
been there in a long time. And then
pretty soon you're just not going. And
that's how you drop out of high school.
So if you find yourself on that path,
stop doing that. Um, but that's
precisely what I did. And so now I'm not
at school and I have to get a job. So
I'm working at 7-Eleven and a paint
warehouse and stuff like that. And
7-Eleven is actually kind of an
interesting job because it's a job I
think they keep rotating for people that
are smart enough to do the night shift
with all the accounting and the
administration and stuff they make the
night shift do but that have reasons
personally that they need to work at
7-Eleven. Um, and I was one of those
people cuz I had no high school diploma.
>> What are some memorable moments from
that time at 7-Eleven? Uh, maybe what do
you uh appreciate about the difficulty
of that job? Probably the worst moment
for me. I mean, I got held up at knife
point and stuff and that's all
entertaining, but the worst the most
this the suckiest part for me was doing
the gas dips where you've got a long
it's like a 15 or 20 foot wooden stick
and it's measured in gradients of inches
and feet and you drop it into the
gasoline tanks and then you bring it up
and you measure where the gasoline sits
because there's no electronic sensor. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> So, I'm doing that and the first time I
do it, I drop the pole and I regrab it.
Well, that's about a thousand splinters
of wood into your hands and it's 40
below out and that really sucked.
>> Oh, wow.
>> Um, I realized I don't want to do this
for my whole life. I knew that. So,
>> okay. So, you stand there frozen with
splinters in your hand.
>> And at some point I have a revelation
about my life that next time I'm going
to do it differently. And then how
ludicrous that is hits me about 3
seconds later, right? And I think that
was really the moment for me where I
realized that I've got to do something
different. And so even though I was 21,
I went and I talked to the uh principal
of my local high school and I was like,
"Can you let me back in?" And he said,
"No, you're too old and we don't have
room." It was his main reason. And I
said, "Well, between now and then,
somebody's going to drop out, so you'll
have room. So let's assume you have
room. Can I come back?" And he was
gracious and let me come back. And so I
did the three or four classes that I needed.
needed.
>> Yeah. You know, just if you can linger
on that, the slow dropping out, that's a
weird thing that you can do with your
brain. You realize to yourself that you
don't have to do the thing that
everybody else is doing. And that's a
dangerous realization because like you
kind of have to to be part of society to
do certain things, >> right?
>> right?
>> And if you realize like you don't have
to do what everybody else is doing, uh
you can either have an incredible life
or a really difficult life. Well, the
problem with that process is you're
making a much smaller decision. I'm just
not going to go to class today. Yeah.
>> And that's all you're deciding. But you
do that enough times, you're making a
much bigger decision,
>> and that's the problem.
>> So, it's better to make if you want to
live life in a non-standard way, it's
better to make the big decision
explicitly and then you can stop going. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Don't allow yourself to make the the
>> It'll be made for you eventually.
>> Okay. you well you got back and you
eventually went to college and were very
successful as a student and you weren't
that good of a student before.
>> No, I was a terrible student in high
school and even my first semester of
college I still wasn't taking it quite
serious because I got mercy passed in
geometry 90 which is like the makeup
class for the geometry 12th grade class
that I didn't have and that scared me
because I realized by 1% or the grace of
the prof professor that let me through I
just about ended my entire university
career here. So fortunately those marks
don't count on your transcript cuz
they're remedial classes and so I got
kind of a fresh start the next semester
and did it for real and I did it for me
and that made all the difference.
>> What can you speak to maybe by way of
advice on how to be successful as a student?
student?
>> Well ideally there's some aspect of
school that you do enjoy whether it's
arts, whether it's computer science,
whether it's shop class, whatever. So go
for those classes and just put up with
and do the hard stuff because it's way
easier than having to do it later. And
that's easy to say when you're 50some.
It's harder to say when you're 15
something. But >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> it makes a lot of sense.
>> All right. What's the story of you
joining Microsoft? How do we get to
there from 7-Eleven
to Microsoft?
>> Yeah, it's a big jump. So, I had uh gone
back to school and I think it was in my
third year of university. I was working
for the phone company for the summer as
a summer job and I'm doing conversions
of their Ubet to TCP IP and modern
networking which really amounts to
swapping cards but then figuring out why
their config. This doesn't allow Lotus
to run anymore cuz it's got 10K less
than it used to. And it's just a
horrible time to be working in
computers, but I was doing it. And at
lunch, I'm sitting in the food court
with the old and the board. And I'm
reading a book that I had bought called
uh Microsoft or Bill Gates in the making
of Microsoft Hard Drive, I think is the
title. And it's a great book. It's just
sort of a matterof fact history of how
Microsoft came to be, what it's like,
how it operates, what the people are
like there. And I'm reading this book
and I become really entranced by it and
fascinated because it sounds like
exactly the place that I want to be, but
I'm in Saskatchewan. So, what am I going
to do about it? And what I wound up
doing was I had put myself through
school with a program called Hyperache,
which is a file system cache for the
AmIGGA because didn't have any out of
the box. And it had done reasonably
well. And so I went through my
registration cards because in those days
you had a 4x6 card that people had to
fill out with their name and their
address and if they had an email, their
email and they send it in, they get
notifications of updates and so on when
it's shareware. And I went through the
whole stack looking for anybody with a
Microsoft email address and I found
maybe three or four people and I just
cold emailed them and said, "Hey, I'm a
operating system student in Saskatchewan
looking for an opportunity." I don't
remember exactly what I said, but one
guy, Alistister, Alistister Banks, he
wrote back and he said, "I know somebody
that I can put you in contact with." And
he put me in contact, I think, with a
guy named Ben Slifka who did a phone
interview who eventually want to hire me
to work in MS DOS for the summer. So,
that's how I got there.
>> You put yourself through school by tell
me about Hyperache. You build a piece of
software. It's the weight loss program
for hard drives.
>> That was sufficiently useful to a large
number of people that would somehow give
you money.
>> Yeah, it made decent money. I mean, I
sold a couple thousand copies, 20 bucks
a copy or 40 bucks a copy.
>> What program? What language was it
written in? >> C.
>> C. >> C.
>> C.
>> So, there was some assembler. The actual
really tight code to do the real work of
transferring data to and from the cache
was 68,000 assembly. Everything else was C.
C.
>> Okay. This is uh like file system IO
>> device block IO. So any block that gets
serviceed from the drive would go
through my cache first and it was an
Nway associative cache and so it would
try to match the geometry of the drive
and do prefetch based on you trying to
read a whole track at one time that kind
of thing.
>> What what was it like
trying to get your software out there at
that time? Like where how were you able
to find customers?
>> Yeah, it's interesting. I think I
started on Usenet and some of the AmIGGA
forums posted here's my trial version
try it out for 30 days see what you like
and eventually got picked up by a few
retailers and I remember I was with my
now wife in her car and she had a cell
phone cuz her dad was very concerned
about her safety and so this is late '8s
and she's got you know the antenna on
the roof and the big box in the trunk
the whole deal but we got a call from
one of the uh software retailers that
wanted to buy 50 copies at 20 bucks
which to me is a thousand bucks which in
1989 or whatever year it was was a big
deal and so eventually a number of
companies just bought inventory.
>> Let's go to that time. It's such an
interesting time with Bill Gates and
Microsoft. Why do you think Microsoft
was dominating the software and the
personal computing space at that time
and and really for many many many years after
after
>> at the time it was the single most
potent assemblage of smart people that
I've ever been a part of and I've been
in academia and I've been in industry to
a certain extent and
you know that when you're working at a
regular computer company the one guy who
actually knows what he's doing his
smarter friend he probably works at
Microsoft so when you get there you're
the big cheese from your small town you
think you know a lot and all of a sudden
you're just in an environment where like
uhoh I'm just not going to speak cuz I
don't want to look stupid. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Okay. Uh what are what about Bill Gates
himself? What are some qualities of Bill
Gates that you think contribute to the
success of Microsoft?
>> I think he was relentless in the pursuit
of his one dream which was his old
slogan of a computer in every home and a
computer in every desk. It was his
special interest and he was a smart guy,
super determined and he hired people
that were as smart or smarter than him
to help him execute it and he built an
almost unstoppable machine of intellect
to go forth and make
let's say very simple products. MS DOS
is not a complicated product by any
stretch but it's exactly what the market
needed at that time.
>> Yeah. I mean, Emma's DOSs changed the
game and uh that's actually the team you
joined, the MS DOS team and I think you
joined before Windows 95 was released.
>> Uh so tell me about the story of MS
DOSs. It's uh success of MS DOSS was
probably pivotal to the success of Microsoft.
Microsoft.
>> Yeah. Before DOSS, they were largely a
language company. So they had made basic
for a lot of computers and they had a 4R
compiler and a Pascal compiler, that
kind of thing. But their deal to have MS
DOS included with every version or every
instance of the PC effectively set them
as a standard that they were able to
leverage for decades going forward and
to a certain extent they locked into
that and on the other hand they were
smart to have done it. So because they
didn't charge IBM a lot of money for it
but making it a standard
really played out to their advantage
over time.
>> Uh so at that time MS DOS no graphical
interface. Can you just speak to what
the heck MS DOS is?
>> It's largely a command launcher. So you
type in a name of a command, it looks up
to see if that's in the current
directory or on a special path of
folders and it loads it into memory and
executes it if it's there. And that's
90% of what MS DOS does. Now it has
environment variables and some
complexity and a small scripting
language built in, but it is basically
just an operating system shell that
allows you to uh use the resources of
the computer like the hard drive or the
CPU. And it doesn't allow you to
multitask. There's no graphical
interface. Now, Microsoft did add a
textbased graphical interface for things
like an editor and quick basic in DOS 5,
I believe, and it was a DOS shell, which
was sort of a graphical file manager in
MS DOS 4. So, they experimented with it,
but it's largely a command prompt.
>> Did does it have ability to communicate
with uh external devices, so drivers and
all that kind of stuff? Like how
expansive of an operating system was MS
DOS? Well, it was limited by the
original x86 instruction set which
limited it to 640k and then there were
various band-aids on top of that to do
high mem and then extended memory beyond
that and uh a lot of hoops have to be
jumped through to make anything work
without consuming base RAM.
>> Yeah. I mean you so you programmed on MS
DOS. What what's it like? What are some
interesting details there? Like you said
there's the memory constraints of 640 uh kilobytes.
kilobytes.
>> Yeah. Now 640k is the maximum that's
ever going to be available. So it's not
what's available to you as an operating
system developer because whatever you
use is what the user won't get. So if
you use 10K needlessly, you're going to
every machine in the world now has 10K
less. So it's kind of a big responsibility.
responsibility.
>> Is that a true quote from Bill Gates
where he said
>> nobody will ever need more than 640K.
Yeah, I know it's not him. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> It's been attributed to him but not real.
real.
>> Uh okay. Okay. So, I mean, what are some
interesting aspects of you that you were
able to do as an intern and when you
joined on MS DOS and beyond?
>> One of the first things I did was to
take Smart Drive, the disc cache, cuz I
had familiarity with disc caches and to
add CDROM caching to it cuz I was new.
CDROMs were just just coming out.
Microsoft Bookshelf is one of the few
products you could run for it. And as
you can imagine, caching a CD speeds it
up by dozens of times if you're smart
about it. So, it it was a big
performance win and a nice thing to work
on. Um, a bigger part of that was moving
a bunch of smart drive and eventually
the double space compression engine up
into what's known as high memory.
>> And without rat holeing on the technical
aspect of it on the x86, there's
something I believe called the A20 line.
And I probably have this backwards or I
got a 50-50 shot at it, but if you've
got the A20 line asserted, then your
memory pointers wrap at the 1 megabyte mark.
mark. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> And if not, they don't. So you continue
going up in memory. So you can rewrite
memory above by combining your segment
and offset registers to a number bigger
than 1 megabyte and you get an extra 64k
and you put your code in there and then
you just put stubs to jump to it from
low memory and so you can get another
64k out of the machine that way. And we
did that for a couple of the products
and that's I had no idea what highm was
cuz I was an Omega programmer and I had
never written any x86 code before I got
there. So
>> So that was like a cool optimization
that you got to be a part of. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So what about Windows? There was a
parallel development of Windows 95 right
at that time. Did you get did you get a
chance to interact with those folks?
>> I actually worked on Windows 95 for
about three or four months. I was on the
comm team doing the presentation cache
which is when you insert a say a word or
an Excel spreadsheet or chart into a
word document. You don't want Excel to
have to be loaded to render it every
time. So there's a presentation cache of
enhanced metaphiles. And I was working
on that. So that shipped in Windows 95,
but I moved to the shell team about 6
months after getting to Microsoft. And
so I worked on NT from there forward.
>> Okay. And what's 95? What's NT?
>> Uh Windows 95 is an evolution of the
original 16-bit Windows 3.1, which was
the very first popular version of
Windows. And it adds 32-bit support and
VXD drivers and a bunch of new
technology and an entirely new user
interface. And it's something that at
the time was revolutionary. People lined
up at night to uh wait in line to buy
the thing. Can you just take us back to
that time and describe why 95 was such a
big leap from 3.1? So, Apple already had
a graphical interface. Uh, Windows 3.1
had a graphical interface. Why was
Windows 95 such a gigantic leap?
>> I don't want to make it as basic as the
start menu, but I think it's a big part
of it. I know when I first saw it,
>> I couldn't quantify what about it was
different and awesome, but I realized
that I wanted to be a part of it. And
that's why I started writing a shell
extension which became uh zip folders at
some point. But
>> I was just fascinated by the new shell
and that's why I end up working on the
team that brought that shell over to the
NT and what's Windows today.
>> Would you say that's the greatest
operating system ever? What's the most
impactful operating system ever?
>> Windows 95 would be number two for me. I
think OS 360 is going to be number one.
>> Okay, interesting.
>> Did you take a machine and write a
Cobalt program for it in 1962? jump in
your time machine, go to Pikipsy and
boot up an IBM Z17 mainframe and run it
today. And they've been doing it for
however many years that is. And it's all
in the business side. So we as consumers
don't have much access to it, but I
think it was probably as influential in
the commercial side as Windows 95 was in
the home side. And then probably Linux
would be number three for me. I put
Linux as bigger than Unix, which doesn't
work because you can't have one without
the other. But the impact of Unix BSD
and so forth is largely in the academic
space. It's by programmers for
programmers. So yeah, Linux created
I mean it was the embodiment of the
open-source spirit
at its largest scale. All right. So it
almost created a community and it it it
created a spirit of programming that uh
propagates to this day. That's true.
That's true. Like scale matters. Yeah.
And it penetration on the server side of
things now is I don't know if it's
equivalent to what system 360 achieved
but it's almost ubiquitous. So
>> yeah the world I this is the quiet
secret of the universe as it runs on Linux.
Linux.
Okay. So uh tell tell me about the days
uh your work days. What were they like
back then back uh back in the MS DOS
Windows 95 days? Take me through a
productive day. Well, your day starts
coming in and you got to download the
address book, which is Microsoft has
between 10 and 15,000 employees at this
point and we're all on MS Mail. We're
just getting off of the PDP11 called
Miss Piggy, which ran Whizmail. And uh
we're running MS Mail, but MS Mail has a
fixed address book that every user must
download every morning. And when there's
10,000 people downloading 10,000 people,
it gets pretty messy. And I think we're
on 10 megabit networking at the time. So
your first hour is downloading the
address book which was always
frustrating but you'd use that time to
look at the crashes that would have
happened overnight from a process we
called stress which is N&T all the
machines that are unused run tests all
night long and they try to crash
themselves and if they manage to crash
themselves it will drop into a debugger
with a serial cable to another machine
and you can connect to that other
machine and remotely debug the crashed
machine. So you come in and they will
have triaged bugs. You know there was a
crash in the start menu so we'll assign
that to Dave. And so you come in and
that's your first thing is to connect
because you got to get that machine back
to the guy that owns it and unlock the
machine. So that's your first hour of
your day is basically triage for bugs
that have come up from stress overnight.
And then at that point it's probably
back to coding which unfortunately 80%
of the time is fixing bugs. Especially
in my career it was porting code and
fixing bugs. I wasn't writing a lot of
new code. There were exceptions. cuz I
wrote a lot of new code on the side to
get it out of my system
>> from a day dayto-day grind of always
fixing bugs in other people's code which
is amazing learning experience.
>> So you did a lot of the at Microsoft you
did a lot of the porting of uh what is
it Windows 95 code to NT.
>> Yeah we took the entire Windows 95 user
interface and we ported it to NT which
mean meant making it unicode for one
thing. So everything that was 8 bits is
now 16 bits. pointers. It's It's quite a
mess when you switch the code over as
you can imagine.
>> Can you give us insights in what is
involved in porting?
>> It's like breaking into somebody's house
and going through all their stuff and
seeing the stuff in their drawers that
they didn't want you to see. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You find all the good stuff, the pretty
pictures hanging on the wall, and you
find some disturbing stuff in the
nightstand. Uh I saw code that was like
200 some characters wide with you know
profanity and swears in it and it
eventually got all cleaned up over the
years by the time I left but it was not
always the most professional code in the world
world
>> right cuz every single piece of code you
have to go through
>> line by line so you see it all.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's the that's the
story of programmers. You think you
write a piece of code and you think
it'll never it'll never be seen by
anybody. And sometimes often times that
code is going to be seen by a very large
number of people
>> that come after you including you 5
years later
you yourself looking at your own code.
Okay. So uh tell me about Windows NT
that was a giant league too.
>> It was it was basically a clean sheet
design. So they went and they got Dave
Cutler from Digital Equipment who had
done operating systems for them. VMS and
RSX11 he had done. And so he came over
after I believe it was Prism and Micah
were some projects at Deck West that got
cancelled and so you had a whole team of
guys with their project is canceled and
basically they took a whole bunch of
them and came to Microsoft and I don't
know the specific deal but they all
showed up. So you had Dave Cutler and
Mark Lakowski and all these really smart
guys from Deck and they did basically a
clean sheet but they also had OS2 as a
starting point but OS2 is of course
written in assembly language and NT is
going to be written in C. So to what
extent they were able to leverage any of
that I don't actually know but at least
they had a system to start with.
>> You said that Dave Coulter is the man
the mind behind Windows. Can you uh can
you explain?
>> So Dave Culler is the architect of the
kernel. So he is Lionus in the Linux
world. It's Dave C in the Windows world.
>> Dave C. Okay. And uh it's not that there
weren't other people that contributed,
of course, huge pieces to it, but uh I
think he's the driving force behind it
and always largely has been. And he's
still I think he's 85 now. He still
codes every day. He's a Microsoft
fellow. He's far as I know still goes
into work. So,
>> uh can you speak to the genius of that
guy? Like what's what's interesting
about his mind having having worked with
him, having interacted with Dave Culler?
>> Well, the dude's wicked smart, but he's
also like a farmer. He's like the guy
that will follow you around and make
sure that stuff gets done and gets done
right to make sure that you're not
checking any crap into his operating
system and he won't tolerate it. And
he's a real taskmaster in that regard.
But I think it really paid off because
it was a very big paradigm shift for
Microsoft developers to be subjected to the
the
>> Dave Cutler digital equipment style of leadership.
leadership.
uh what did you learn from that about um
successful software teams where there's
large number of people collaborating cuz
Microsoft had a lot of brilliant
engineers back then and like you said D
cutler they had to uh they had to create
completely new systems many of which we
still use today what have you learned
about great software engineering teams
from that time
>> tools are everything I think for one I
mean people are everything we'll give
that as a granted but the tool set is a
huge factor. If we would have had git it
would have been immensely easier. We
were using diff and you know manual
deltas to do the porting and stuff. So
being able to fork a branch of source
code would be a luxury that is new to
me. So
>> at the time it would have been really handy.
handy.
>> What were some memorable conversations
from that time when you walked over next door?
door?
>> Uh well one I was not present for was
somebody was complaining. A new hire
came into the team and was working on
what I believe was called Cairo. And
Cairo was going to be the next future
operating system was going to be
beautiful and have a whole new user
interface newer than Windows 95. And it
never materialized. But while they were
working on it, one of the guys was
working on Cairo was kind of flaming on
the open anti-dev alias, which is
thousands of people, how shitty the anti
boot experience was. And the response
that came back was an epic flame that I
wish I would have saved. And I won't
name the guy who wrote it. He knows who
he is. But uh
it was a work of art of angry flame
mail. Kind of like the ones you see line
of send every now and then about colonel
stuff. So it's a very similar sentiment.
>> Were there like kind of intellectual
debates like there's some some heated
stuff engineers?
>> Yeah, it got contentious. So you've got
intellects competing and eventually the
technical merits for some people are
secondary and it's about besting the
other person in that argument and it's
no longer productive at that point half
the time. But there was a fair bit of that.
that.
>> Yeah, I've I've seen those kind of
debates in uh like programming language
design communities like Guido Van
Rossom, the leaders of those
communities, it can wear them down cuz
people get you almost like forget the
mission you're on and start being very
nitpicky about the details. I mean,
engineering minds get together and you
just go to war over the stupidest like
syntax subtlety,
>> right? was I shouldn't say stupid but
it's a small syntax subtlety for that's
for programming language and I'm sure
there's internal battles about specific
kernel components.
>> Yeah, I mean there was one that I lost
that still bugs me to this day I think
and uh
>> I still think I was well when we were
doing the shell we were porting
everything from ancient unic code. So
every character that was 8 bits now
becomes 16 bits. Now, the problem is I'm
on a MYIPS box because I'm porting it to
risk and you can't have unaligned
addresses. But if you take two ID lists,
which are basically path components, you
take the one for C colon backslash, take
the one for Windows, take the one for
system 32, and you add them together.
But if you've got an odd number of
characters, now you're at an odd address
in this thing. And it takes me an
immense amount of work to turn on
exception handlers, to do unaligned bite
access, to pull the string out and copy
it manually. It's just a it's literally
like a hundred to a thousand times the
amount of work to read a string out of
this ID list on a MIP's machine because
it's unaligned. So I'm having the
argument that even though it's late in
the Windows 95, they've already shipped
one beta that we should now just
guarantee that ID lists are always an
even number of bytes or do some hack to
just make sure this never happens. So
the code that references them on other
hardware can just blaze through it. And
it became a shouting match and sort of a
personal match. And I lost that one. And
I still think that I know today that
that code running on Windows is
thousands of times slower than it has to
be and it nobody cares because it's
plenty fast but it could be a lot faster.
faster.
>> Yeah. So uh yeah I mean you mentioned
MIPS and risk how deeply did you have to
understand the lowest level sort of the
lowest level of the software and even
the hardware with the stuff you were
building like what are the layers of the
abstractions you had to understand to be
successful with all the stuff you're
doing with NT and before that with MSTOS
>> well about half your day is going to be
spent debugging and h and most of that
time is going to be spent in call stacks
that are in pure assembly language cuz
there's No source level debugging. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> So it's not like we're in Visual Studio
and you hit a break point and it pops up
and there's the source code. You can go
look at the source code, but you're
looking at the raw assembly dump from
the machine at all times.
>> Even if you're programming in C, the
debugging is in assembly.
>> Yeah, 100%.
>> Oh man.
>> So it's a little cumbersome.
>> Better yet, we're doing four instruction
sets because we're doing Intel, uh,
MIPS, Alpha, and Power PC. So depending
on which machine it crashes on, you've
got an entirely different instruction
set that registers.
So you get reasonably adapted debugging
all four, but uh I had more experience
in my so myip stuff would come my way.
>> That's a real endurance event. I mean
can you speak to that the the torture
there's debugging especially that kind
of debugging without the without the
tooling associated with it? I mean
that's you know programming
kids these days
uh programming isn't all about creating
beautiful things right it's uh also about
about
fixing things
>> yeah I would say that 20% of my
professional life has been creating and
80% has been debugging and fixing
>> and I mean I got a bit of reputation as
somebody who could fix stuff and so
stuff like that would flow to me and so
I would spend more time doing that I
wasn't renowned as a creative UI genius
where I'm flowering ing all these new
ideas. So, I got to fix ugly stuff. But
you get really good at that. So, I don't
mind it until it's one of those things
where you've been chasing it for so long
that you don't know what to do next and
you can't understand why it doesn't work
or how it ever worked or whatever
situation you happen to be in. And uh
you know, after a day of it, it can get
pretty trying.
>> Yeah, debugging can be real torture.
This could be really really difficult.
There's a psychological component I
think of perseverance. I think the ones
that, you know, take you a day, they
resolve one of two ways. Either it's
like, oh, extra semicolon, and then you
finally see it, or it's some horrible
manifestation of crossthreaded
department nonsense that was really
hard. But it can go both ways.
>> Um, I had a bug, it wasn't my bug
actually, but it was a manifestation of
a bug in task manager where every now
and then it would say greater than 100%
total CPU usage. And this looks pretty
silly for a task manager. So, I had
tried to resolve it for a long time. And
I'd talk to the colonel guys about my
issue and they were unsympathetic, let's
say, because the kernel guys are a
special breed and they weren't
interested in my userland problems. It's
probably some issue in my code, right?
And they're probably right, but it
wasn't in this case and I was sure of
it. And so I kept adding asserts all
through the code to make sure that the
that the preparatory steps of adding the
stuff together were never more than 100
and that the final sum was never more
than 100. And finally, it never asserted.
asserted.
But occasionally we would get this bug
where people would still see it. And so
I finally put my phone number in the
assert. And I was like, if you see this
message, call Davepl at 425836, my phone
number. Um, and finally, we did get a
catch in the actual stress debugger that
I was talking about earlier where it
happened to somebody with a debugger
connected. We were able to go through
and it was actually a kernel accounting
issue and it wasn't a task manager
issue. So they just fixed it in the
kernel once I was able to prove that it
was in fact the kernel issue. And uh
you'd think we would then remove my
phone number, but we just commented it
out. So it's shipped and it's in all the
damn source code leaks for NT that are
out there. So that's how I find Task
Manager code is I search for my phone
number on Google and it will reverse
find the empty source code.
>> Can you speak to the search thing? By
the way, I saw I think you tweeted or
you said somewhere that if you want to
take your search really seriously, you
add your your home phone number in
there. It's true. It's true.
>> A little facicious because it's probably
not the smartest thing, but you will
find out. But I mean, assert by itself
is already a serious thing because it
stops at all execution. I mean, this is
one of the reasons I really really love
asserts cuz they they stop everything
and force you to take care of the
problem. Yeah, I'm a little religious
about my asserts, too. I don't assert
things that I hope aren't true. I assert
things that I know cannot be true. And I
think that's really the intent of an
assertion, so I'm overstating the
obvious. But when it does occur, it's a
bug, plain and simple. It's not a
warning. It's kind of fascinating how
often it can really help you figure out
the problem because if you put asserts
everywhere, you can get very quickly to
the source of the problem.
>> Yeah, I tend to it's not something I
want to suggest you go back and add
later. It's something you should do
organically as you build your code. So
for each function, if you've got
assumptions like I know that this
pointer is never null, well assert that.
If you know this count is always less
than twice the bite width, assert that.
And don't be afraid because if it
asserts it's doing you a favor. I think
some people are afraid. You know, it's
like when you turn out of an
intersection and you think maybe there's
somebody coming and you don't look left. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Or maybe I don't want to do that. But um
it's like that people don't assert
because they're afraid they're going to
fire. Well, no, you want to know.
>> You mentioned task manager. Obviously,
we have to talk about this the legendary
program that you created, the Windows
task manager. Tell me every detail of
how you built it. What is Windows Task
Manager? So what is task manager is a
way to go in and find out which apps on
your system are using the computer,
using the hardware, using the CPU, using
the memory, and which ones might be
using too much or locked up or going
crazy. And it gives you the ability to
terminate and kill those ones. So it's
an inspection and a fixing tool.
>> Yeah. It lists all the processes. I
mean, it's a legendary piece of
software. It's crazy. I mean, you just
take it for granted. It's like the start
menu, right? Yeah.
>> It's like genius. Well, I had the great
fortune of working on a lot of things
that people are familiar with and task
manager was one of those side projects
that I started as something that I
wanted for myself and eventually came in
house. So I started writing it at home
and I got kind of the basics up and
running and I was using I think it's HQ
current perform or HQ performance in the
registry to get the stats because I
didn't have access to the internal APIs
because I was working from home and I
don't call those if I'm working from home
home
>> and uh when I brought it in house then I
was able to call things like antiquery
system information or antiquery process
information and get the real answers
very quickly which enabled it to become
a very fast and responsive app. So
people have come to rely on it because I
wrote it to be as reliable as possible.
I wasn't worried about the features.
There was a basic set of functionality
that I wanted in there and I got
everything I wanted, but I wanted it to
be really robust and so that and small
and the original was like 87K.
>> Okay. Can you speak to what it takes to
build a piece of software like that that
doesn't freeze?
>> Uh, you don't assume much, right? If
you're going to call the shell to run an
app, well, that could be a network path
that's on a TCP IP share that takes 90
seconds to time out. So anytime you do
any kind of AP API call like that that
could take time you're gonna wind up
doing it on a separate thread and so the
app becomes a little bit more complex
because everything is multi-threaded.
>> Okay. So what programming language were
you working in? >> C.
>> C.
>> So this was for Windows NT. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> So this shipped initially in NT4.
>> Okay. So what are some interesting
details about this program because you
have to get as simple as possible
but also as robust as possible.
Now, what are some interesting
optimizations for example, you had to implement?
implement?
>> There's a couple things I a little
hardcore now. I'm surprised I did. Like
I didn't want to link to the C runtimes
at all. So, I made sure never to call a
runtime call and I didn't link to them
and that saved me whatever the C runtime
is 96K or something. So, you know, it
almost double the size of the app if you
just touched any C call. So, I was
careful not to do that. But then I was
actually writing in C++ which is C with
objects more than anything. But uh in
order to get it to work, I had to go
through and call all the object
constructors manually from the dispatch
table and stuff because you don't have
the run times to do it for you. So
you're working with a compiler that
doesn't have its runtime. And I don't
want to rat hole on the technical
issues, but it's a lot of extra work to
get it to work, but when you do, it's
incredibly small and tight.
>> That's about the size of the program. Um
what are some interesting aspects of
tracking down like every every process
and how much CPU usage
>> in that process? cooler things that I
saw is I don't want to say I invented
Hamming code, but I kind of invented
Hamming code without knowing Hamming
code existed. So every column and every
row in task manager has a bit on whether
it's become dirty or not. And then I can
look basically the same way Hamming code
looks on your X and Y columns to find
out which rows have changed. Go through
and find out which ones actually need to
be repainted. So task manager is super
efficient and it works in concert with
the list view control which provides
that functionality to go through and
repaint as little as an individual cell
that changes from frame to frame. So it
can paint very fast. It can resize very
smoothly and resizing was probably my biggest
biggest
uh personal goal with that app. So you
can size it to any size and it still
works. And even if you have 32 CPUs,
which wasn't possible in the day, it
will draw, I think, only eight graphs
and then it wraps. But, uh, it still
works today. So, kind of proud of that.
>> It's just incredible. Um, you've gotten
a chance to sort of observe the
evolution of Task Manager. In some ways,
it really hasn't changed much. Maybe
there's some prettier aspects to it that
fit into the whatever version of Windows
it's in, but it's really basically the
same thing. the functionality is very
same. Um the reporting is more because
they've added GPU and thermals and
things like that which is really nice to
have and we didn't have that ability in
the day. So
>> I mean what can you say? Do you know
about like was there any refactoring
done or is it basically the same code?
>> Uh as far as I know the original code's
still mostly all there. So there are
layers of drawing code and dark mode
code and whatever else XML schema code
that goes on top of that that makes it 4
megabytes instead of 87K. But that's the
world we live in.
Yeah, it's one of those pieces of
software you create and it just stay
once it's there. This is really like the
start menu and then I'm sure if you
remove it, people will just lose their mind.
mind.
>> Yeah, it might be locked in for a while
on that one. It might be good.
>> Yeah, I thought that would be true for
Clippy, but
uh Clippy will make it back one day. All
right. What What are some um other
pieces of software you created at the
time that are legendary? So, you were
part of Space Cadet Pinball, at least porting.
porting.
>> Yeah. So, they came into my office and
said, "Hey, what are you doing?" And I
said, I told them what to do. And they
said, "Well, how do you want to spend
your next 3 months?" I said, "I have no
idea." And he said, "Do you want to port
pinball?" And I had I'd seen Space at
Pinball as a game standalone for the Win
95 platform. And it had a couple
different tables. And it was a cool
game. So, I was kind of excited. And
what they wanted was some visual splash
for NT to show that NT can do for then
high-speed graphics and or at least
responsive graphics. And so I took a
shot and unfortunately a lot of the code
was in assembly and I was on the so I
had to rewrite the code in C so I could
then port it to all the different
platforms and at the heart of the game
is a huge state engine and it's like a
giant switch statement with if I
remember like 50 entries in it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's got an Easter egg built in and
decoding the state. It's like running a
neural network through this thing as you
hit it with different states. and I just
put it aside and treated it as a black
box. And so my code runs on top of that
and does the drawing and the sound and
everything else, but the original game
is still running. And somebody recently
asked me, uh, why is it slightly
different? The physics are slightly
different from the Windows 95 version,
but it should be the same code because
I'm trying very hard to preserve that.
But what it is is I had a bug where I
will draw as many frames per second as I
can, which on a modern computer could be
5,000 frames a second for pinball
because it's a pretty basic game. And so
all your physics are interpolated 5,000
times per second instead of 30 times a
second or whatever you would have got in
the old one. So you're getting arguably
better, at least different physics.
But they fixed that since. So
>> why is that game so awesome?
>> I think it's a great design. I mean, I
take no credit for that. That's all
totally guys cinematronics. But the
original game is a great design. It's
very similar to Black Knight 2000, which
I own as an actual physical pinball
machine. And the layout is actually very
similar. I don't know if it was inspired
by it or not. So, it's a good game.
>> Yeah. Sometimes I think about like
Tetris, about certain games are pretty
primitive graphics
that captivate the uh the excitement of
a large number of people.
And maybe it's the excitement of a large
number of people that contributes to the
awesomeness of the game. So when when
many people together get excited and
talk about it, that sort of gets
implanted into your head. But that's one
of the great games. I mean, even even
like Solitary Mind Sweeper, I mean,
there's just a generation of people that
have gone to war in Mind Sweeper, right?
>> Well, those things were included in the
OS not as games, but as educational
tools to get you to use a mouse.
>> Oh, interesting.
>> So, Solitaire is there to show you how
to do drag and drop. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And Mind Sweeper is probably right
click. I think you put a right a flag or
something. Not a mind sweeper guy, but
so each one of them teaches you something.
something.
>> Mind sweeper guy.
>> That's funny.
>> Yeah. Wow. I didn't know that. That's
interesting. And that's true. But I
don't know how many hours I've spent on
these games and like millions of people
have spent millions of hours on these games.
games.
>> I used to volunteer teaching computer
science in my kids' school, you know,
for the third graders and stuff. So,
it's more like logging in than computer
science. But, uh, the kids, of course,
all their dads work at Microsoft, so
nobody's impressed by anything you do.
But some one of the kids found out I
worked on pinball and then they were
like, "Whoa, you worked on pinball."
They all knew that in those days. Now
the kids are probably aged out. They
don't know it anymore. But for a brief period,
period,
uh, you're behind the Windows activation.
activation.
>> You're saying like it's a bad thing.
Um, everything's a matter of
perspective. So tell the story of that.
What's Windows activation? What uh how
did you get involved?
>> So they came to me late in the XP ship
process. I I don't know if the beta had
gone out. I don't think the beta had
gone out yet, but they had intended to
take the Office activation code and then
adapt it to Windows and add activation
to Windows, but whoever was responsible
for doing it had slipped it enough times
that it wasn't going to happen. And so I
had kind of reputation for being able to
fix things quickly. So they came to me
and said, "Can you get this done in time
for XP?" I don't know, but I'll try. So,
with the help of the guys that were
doing the DRM stuff on the DRM side and
the research guys doing the math for the
product keys and everything else, we
cranked it out in time for XP. And I
don't know what it actual impact is for
revenue, but I imagine it's substantial
when you start enforcing license keys.
>> I wonder what it is.
>> I don't know
>> cuz it's also annoying.
>> It is, especially if you have to phone
activate. And that was just the case
that we had to carry with us as an
albatross around our neck where you've
got to pass data up to the clearing
house, the backend systems that are
going to approve your key. You've got to
tell it all your hardware parameters
like how much memory and hard drive
space and the various things the
hardware key is bound to as well as the
product key. And you've got to encode it
in letters and numbers that somebody's
willing to read in over a phone. And if
you think doing product activation is
painful over the phone, could you
imagine being the person that worked on
the other end of that line? I mean,
that's just got to be a mind-numbing job
to listen to product keys for eight
hours a day.
>> Yeah. One of the challenges with
Windows, and it's been a frustration
point for me, but I I understand from a
design perspective, it's very difficult,
is so many different kinds of people use
Windows. But um it's been frustrating
how over time Windows has more and more
leaned into the direction of like
the not not the power user I should say
which is why sort of Linux has always
been really wonderful but from an
activation perspective or from any kind
of configuration it's been it's been of
it's been a source of a lot of frustration.
frustration.
>> Yeah. One of my more popular episodes of
late has been why you can't move the
Windows taskbar.
I had no idea. But the outrage is
palpable amongst people that you put on
the left or top and you can't anymore
and it is an affront to their existence
and I understand it to a certain extent.
>> That's one of the main reasons I really
just dislike. There's a lot of aspects
about Windows 11 I dislike. One of which
is like you can't customize things as
much about the position of the taskbar.
Just basic customization. Can we just
configure stuff? because there's going
to be a small contingent of power users
that are just gonna enjoy the hell out
of this operating system if you just
give them that option. It costs you
nothing. Just give them that freedom.
>> Well, it does cost, right? Because the
freedom to put the start menu on the
left or the top or the right really
increases the complexity of the code
that renders the start menu and lays out
the tabs and does all the things. And
now it's a much larger surface for bugs
and it's a much larger piece of code to
maintain. So you probably need more
developers or another developer or some
portion of a developer's time. So the
question becomes at what point is it
still worth it to satisfy the niche
And I I that those decisions weren't
mine to make but I could see it from
both sides. I think just like the people
who make movies
and insert very nuanced details that
only a small number of people will
realize are there that's going to really
pay off. There's a kind of reputation
that builds over time that has a very
powerful ripple effect that I think it
has it it has so many benefits
including for hiring great software
engineers. It's like you create this
aura of a place
uh that puts love into every detail
that puts that really takes care of the
power users that takes care of the
developers. I think Microsoft is more
and more moved in that direction with
GitHub and acquiring GitHub and just
taking care of the developers. But on
the Windows interface side,
come on. some customization with, you
know, with VS Code, you can customize
everything. Why Why can't we customize
the start menu? All right. Anyway, uh,
and the taskbar
um, and really every aspect of the
Windows interface. I don't I don't I
maybe you're right. Maybe increases the
complexity of the code. I suspect that's
just not the case.
>> I bet it was. I bet it was a scheduling
decision when they rewrote the start
menu. I think they rewrote it because
it's different than the old taskbar.
>> Mhm. and somebody was tasked with you
got to deliver this set of functionality
and if I cut out putting it on the left
and the top and the right and two rows
of tabs and all the other cool features
I can deliver it four months sooner and
I'm not saying that's the right decision
but I'm guessing that might be the kind
of thing that motivates it and they're
on such a different release schedule now
it used to be
you won't see much craftsmanship unless
somebody owns a component for a long
time and it settles to a point that then
you can work on and polish it right but
if it's always turnurning and the UI is
change in every release. It's never
going to get that level of polish.
Although I think the UI is pretty nice, but
but
>> I Yeah, it is nice. But I think there I
think it's I just don't think it's a
scheduling thing. I think I think it's a
craftsmanship thing. Just like you with
a with a task manager. If there's a guy
or a girl in there who take ownership of
it who have like passion like for them
it's a thing that they take pride in
over a period of time. they can like by
themselves in a short amount of time
create something truly wonderful, >> right?
>> right?
>> And like I I I think if you have large
software engineering teams with managers
and scheduling of meetings and all this
kind of stuff, yeah, okay, then then
your argument applies. But if there if
you allow the flourishing of individuals
that create cool and like their own
sort of the side project, which Google
is very good at.
>> They tried that, right? Google. Yeah.
>> Yeah. like have fun with it, like do
some crazy stuff and then we'll
integrate it. We'll we'll try to
integrate into the whole ecosystem. I
don't know. Yeah. Cuz like to me
there's it's such a great joy from an
individual developer to create something
like customization of the star menu of
the taskbar because you know that
millions of people are going to use it
uh the the taskbar and then you know
that thousands tens of thousands of
developers might be using to customize
even little subtle aspects of the
taskbar. You know how much joy you create,
create,
you give to people to customize to have
some kind of JSON thing where you
customize something about the taskbar.
>> Okay. But how do you respond to the
Steve Jobs aspect of
giving you customization implies that we
couldn't figure out the right answer for you?
you?
Or maybe there is no right answer and
all four answers are equally right. I
have no idea. But
>> right, uh I think I've always the I'm
glad Apple exists. It's a beautiful
thing and that ideal of design is
wonderful but I always thought that the
the Windows creates the contrast like
the point of Windows is to be the
operating system that works on all kinds
of devices that just much is supposed to
be much more open and they've moved
towards that direction more and more
with Windows subsystems for Linux. It's
just this whole developer friendly
ecosystem. it it the interface should be
in the spirit of that I think right but
but I do think that there could also be
security vulnerabilities that created
with that it's not just the complexity
of the code because Windows is just
under attack
>> it's very difficult to keep it secure
anyway taking that that tangent you also
developed the zip file support for
Windows uh creating visual zip like you
mentioned zip folders that eventually
evolved into zip folders tell the story
of that
>> so that was a piece of software that I I
wrote at home again and uh what What
happened was I was out with my wife and
I think it was a Sunday afternoon. We're
driving around. This is 1993 and we're
living in our apartment and we're just
seeing what the housing market is like
out there and there's a guy, he's got
this beautiful three-bedroom house and a
Corvette convertible 93 red torch red
parked in the driveway and house is for
sale and it's like 300k I think and
there's no chance I'm coming up with
300k at that point or even the down
payment on that. So, um, I took the
flyer and I cut the picture of the house
out and I taped it to my monitor. And
that was my incentive to just write
something at night cuz when I came home,
I was doing two things. I was one
expressing a creativity that I couldn't
get out at work when I was just fixing
bugs. And I was trying to make some
extra money. And so, I wrote a shell
extension before I actually went to the
shell team. I started it. And that's
what led to my interest in going to the
shell team based on a MSDN samp or msj
at the time msj sample that I saw on how
to like bring up a folder. Well, once I
had the very basic bring up a folder
template, adding zip file support to it
was just incremental all the way. And uh
I released it as a shareware product. I
think it was 1995 or 29.95 and I sold
whatever a couple hundreds or thousands
of copies. And one day I'm getting ready
for work and I get a call and it's a
lady and she says, "Are you Dave
Plameumber?" I said, "Yeah." And she
said, "Are you the guy that wrote
Migelzip?" I said, "Yeah." And she said,
"Well, this is Betsy from Microsoft, and
we'd like you to come by and come in and
talk about an acquisition of it." I
said, "Okay, what building you in?" And
she's like, "What do you mean?" I said,
"Well, I'll come by." And she said,
"Well, no, you got to talk to travel and
you got to talk to legal and this all
has to be set up." And I'm like, "I
don't get it. We both work at the same
place. Why can't I just stop by?" I
don't know if I said that literally. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But it was a few minutes of back and
forth where we both realized that she
didn't know I worked there.
>> Yeah. They had just cold called the
author and then found out that it was me.
me. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh >> funny.
>> funny.
>> So they made me an offer on it. And it's
the kind of thing where if I don't
accept the offer, now my choices are I
can keep selling my own version and quit
Microsoft or I can stop selling my own
version and work for Microsoft. Neither
of those is great. I mean, I keep my job
of course, but I'd like to still have
this income stream. And the other option
was accept their offer, which is what I
did. So then I bought a used 93 red Corvette.
And you got to continue building it internally.
internally.
>> I did. So we took a lot of features out,
right, to simplify because it had
encryption and it had a number of
features that were common in zip
programs of the day, but probably
weren't appropriate for Windows. And at
the time, encryption was like a
munition. So you couldn't just add
encryption willy-nilly to various parts
of the operating system. So we took out
some things like that. Multi volume
support, I think, was taken out just to
simplify it. Well, can you speak to zip
in general? Just the history of zip and
you know compression that whole thing.
>> It was really born out of the BBS era
when people were dialing in on modems to
download trialware and shareware and
other things from BBS's
online and to compress them. Executables
compressed about half their size. Other
stuff compresses much more. But a guy
named Phil Cass came up with a command
line program for MS DOS called PKzip
which was able to do compression of
programs and he has a rather tragic arc
but it became ubiquitous in the entire
PC industry and pretty much everybody
was using it. So when Windows came out
there was no way to open up a zip file
but everybody had been creating them for
a decade and so that really drove the
desire to have the zip support right
into Windows.
>> Yeah. And that's another piece of
software is just kind of with us to this day.
day.
>> Mhm. And it could be vastly improved,
but you know, it was written in a single
core days, so it doesn't do anything
multi-threaded. And you've got a 96 core
795. Well, it uses one of them to unzip
your file.
>> What other awesome things were you a
part of at Microsoft? What other pieces
of software?
>> I worked on the initial prototypes of
Windows Media Center. So, we did that in
uh 96, I believe. And we didn't have at
the time any sources. So we had like a
CD of MPEG video files of Raging Rudolph
and I think the original South Park
video, the Christmas one,
>> which is all wildly inappropriate in the
workplace today. But uh it's all the
content we had until we got actually we
had them put a satellite dish on the
roof, a DSS, whatever the 18-inch dish
is because we couldn't get cable to the
building. And so we built up this thing
that would eventually look a lot like
media center and it was distance viewing
UI for windows. So you can sit with a
remote control on a desktop and have you
know the current start menu is not great
at 20 ft away. So
>> tell me the story of the infamous blue
screen of death.
>> What it is is when Windows has no other
option when the colonel gets into a
state where something illegal has
happened. So let's say a device driver
is trying to write to a piece of memory
it doesn't own or is trying to free a
memory piece of memory twice. Something
that just cannot happen and the colonel
has no other option. It will shut the
machine down to save your work.
>> Mhm. And well, not save it, prevent
further damage. And it puts up a blue
screen and it uh prints out the stack
information. Depending how your settings
are, sometimes just a sad face in the
current Windows.
>> Yeah. I wonder what the first version of
Windows where the blue screen came to be.
be.
>> So, Windows 3 had a blue screen,
>> but it's completely unrelated to the
blue screen in Windows NT. And I talked
to the guy that wrote the blue screen in
Windows NT. His name is John Vert. And
uh the reason he picked white on blue, I
had thought I'd always heard this
because in the labs you could walk
through a lab where we have 50 PCs all
running stress. Oh, that one's got a
blue screen. It's crashed.
>> It wasn't that simple. It was just the
MIP's firmware that he was building it
on was blue on white. And Visual
Slickdit that he was using as an editor
was also the same color scheme. And so
you could code, boot, crash, and reboot
all in the same color scheme. Why do you
think so many problems with computers
can be solved by turning it off and
turning it on back again?
>> I think there's two major things that
happen with computers as you run them
over time. One is memory gets used and
not freed. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And so it accumulates on the heap or in
the swap file or wherever and things get
sluggish. And the other is code gets
into a state that the developers didn't
anticipate or didn't test very well. Mhm.
Mhm.
>> And maybe that's a rare state, but now
that Notepad or Word or Excel is in that
state, your system is goofy. So if you
just reboot the thing or shut it down or
restart it, you're getting a fresh state
and there's no memory leaks. So it covers a lot of sins basically. And uh
covers a lot of sins basically. And uh the intricate ways that several pieces
the intricate ways that several pieces of software in a goofy state interact
of software in a goofy state interact with each other creates sort of a meta
with each other creates sort of a meta goofy state that just kind of had just
goofy state that just kind of had just the entire system starts acting a little
the entire system starts acting a little weird.
weird. >> Yeah. and it somehow fixes it. What's uh
>> Yeah. and it somehow fixes it. What's uh what's some of the best and the worst
what's some of the best and the worst code you've seen during that time in
code you've seen during that time in Microsoft? What's some beautiful code
Microsoft? What's some beautiful code and what's some ugly code that pops to
and what's some ugly code that pops to memory?
memory? >> Terms of beautiful code, there's two
>> Terms of beautiful code, there's two that stand out for me. One is the kernel
that stand out for me. One is the kernel in general when you get down into the
in general when you get down into the Windows kernel in the actual NT APIs and
Windows kernel in the actual NT APIs and stuff is very well written and it's
stuff is very well written and it's written to a standard that you don't see
written to a standard that you don't see on the user side or at least is uncommon
on the user side or at least is uncommon on the user side. On the user side,
on the user side. On the user side, probably the coolest code I remember
probably the coolest code I remember seeing was a guy named Bob Day wrote a
seeing was a guy named Bob Day wrote a named pipe implementation to eliminate
named pipe implementation to eliminate the use of shared memory. So, Windows 95
the use of shared memory. So, Windows 95 had a big shared segment amongst all the
had a big shared segment amongst all the shell processes where it would store
shell processes where it would store stuff was common to all the shells. We
stuff was common to all the shells. We didn't want to do that. Shared memory is
didn't want to do that. Shared memory is a bad idea on NT and an industrial
a bad idea on NT and an industrial level. So, he came up with a way to do
level. So, he came up with a way to do it with name pipes and uh I remember
it with name pipes and uh I remember doing the code review on it and it was
doing the code review on it and it was very impressive to walk through the
very impressive to walk through the code. It was one of those things was
code. It was one of those things was like, "Oh, I don't think I could have
like, "Oh, I don't think I could have done that if I was trying."
done that if I was trying." >> Who's the greatest programmer you've
>> Who's the greatest programmer you've ever encountered?
ever encountered? >> You know what? I don't think there is
>> You know what? I don't think there is anyone. I I've met a number of great
anyone. I I've met a number of great programmers, but I'll tell you one story
programmers, but I'll tell you one story that impressed me a lot was when I was
that impressed me a lot was when I was brand new at the company. I've been
brand new at the company. I've been there like six weeks and I'm working on
there like six weeks and I'm working on this Olay presentation cache that I
this Olay presentation cache that I mentioned earlier, and I'm on Windows 95
mentioned earlier, and I'm on Windows 95 and I've got Excel inserted into Word
and I've got Excel inserted into Word and I'm in the kernel debugger and
and I'm in the kernel debugger and something's going wrong in theuler. And
something's going wrong in theuler. And I've been there, you know, I've barely
I've been there, you know, I've barely written any x86 code and I'm looking at
written any x86 code and I'm looking at the Windowser trying to figure out why
the Windowser trying to figure out why my thing is deadlocked.
my thing is deadlocked. And eventually I get stuck. So I'm kind
And eventually I get stuck. So I'm kind of out of my element. And I send an
of out of my element. And I send an email to the Windows 95 kernel team and
email to the Windows 95 kernel team and say, "Could you send somebody by?" And
say, "Could you send somebody by?" And so about 10 minutes later, this
so about 10 minutes later, this developer strolls in and they're just
developer strolls in and they're just holding a null modem cable, which is to
holding a null modem cable, which is to connect my two machines together so they
connect my two machines together so they can debug one with the other in case I
can debug one with the other in case I didn't have it, but it was already set
didn't have it, but it was already set up. And so they sit down and they're
up. And so they sit down and they're using wind debug, which is just a
using wind debug, which is just a horrible debugger. It's just it's a
horrible debugger. It's just it's a cursed. But uh they're very very
cursed. But uh they're very very competent with it and they are just
competent with it and they are just blasting through the call stacks and
blasting through the call stacks and they're checking all these objects in
they're checking all these objects in the kernel and trying to find out who's
the kernel and trying to find out who's waiting on what and why things are
waiting on what and why things are deadlocked and what things are signaled
deadlocked and what things are signaled and what's not and it's just this quicks
and what's not and it's just this quicks ballet of call stacks flying by and I'm
ballet of call stacks flying by and I'm watching this and I'm pretty blown away
watching this and I'm pretty blown away because I'm a good programmer but this
because I'm a good programmer but this person is an amazing debugger and I've
person is an amazing debugger and I've never seen a performance like this and
never seen a performance like this and uh about five minutes in I just hear oh
uh about five minutes in I just hear oh I
I and then they disconnected and got up
and then they disconnected and got up and left. And that was Laura Butler who
and left. And that was Laura Butler who became a distinguished engineer at
became a distinguished engineer at Microsoft. I think she may still be. I'm
Microsoft. I think she may still be. I'm not sure if she's retired or not, but so
not sure if she's retired or not, but so she kind of set my template for, you
she kind of set my template for, you know, what Microsoft developers were
know, what Microsoft developers were like when they were debugging and what
like when they were debugging and what kernel developers were like and even
kernel developers were like and even what female developers were like cuz I
what female developers were like cuz I had such a small sample set. Um, but it
had such a small sample set. Um, but it was a very high standard. There's a few
was a very high standard. There's a few things I love in life more than people
things I love in life more than people who are ultra competent at anything
who are ultra competent at anything really. But the lower level the better
really. But the lower level the better in the engineering space. They're able
in the engineering space. They're able to for example like run or maintain the
to for example like run or maintain the infrastructure, the computer
infrastructure, the computer infrastructure. So not the individual
infrastructure. So not the individual computer but the computers communicating
computer but the computers communicating together and working together. Those
together and working together. Those people are just magicians,
people are just magicians, >> right?
>> right? >> It's so inspiring to make. It's like
>> It's so inspiring to make. It's like watching a great carpenter or
watching a great carpenter or >> I love anything done really really well.
>> I love anything done really really well. >> Yeah. It's beautiful to see. It's
>> Yeah. It's beautiful to see. It's beautiful to see that humans are able to
beautiful to see that humans are able to accomplish that. Even in in civil
accomplish that. Even in in civil engineering space when I look at like
engineering space when I look at like bridges, it's like the number of people
bridges, it's like the number of people that had to come together to build that
that had to come together to build that and now millions of people use it every
and now millions of people use it every single day. With software sometimes you
single day. With software sometimes you don't get to see visually just the
don't get to see visually just the number of people impacted by a thing.
number of people impacted by a thing. Imagine how many people are impacted by
Imagine how many people are impacted by Linux and all the different open sources
Linux and all the different open sources open- source systems that make up Linux.
open- source systems that make up Linux. It's incredible. And Task Manager is an
It's incredible. And Task Manager is an example of a piece of software just how
example of a piece of software just how many people use that over the years. How
many people use that over the years. How many times? It's crazy. It's probably
many times? It's crazy. It's probably billions. Billions of you.
billions. Billions of you. >> Yeah. Two billion a month or something.
>> Yeah. Two billion a month or something. >> Two billion
>> Two billion >> something like that. I've seen the
>> something like that. I've seen the metrics and it's up there.
metrics and it's up there. >> Crazy to you.
>> Crazy to you. >> It is. What I love about it though, and
>> It is. What I love about it though, and I'm sure you've had this experience
I'm sure you've had this experience where sometimes you design a piece of
where sometimes you design a piece of software and it's complex and you get it
software and it's complex and you get it working in your head and you get the
working in your head and you get the plumbing working and you know how it's
plumbing working and you know how it's going to run and flow and then
going to run and flow and then eventually you write the code and the
eventually you write the code and the code does that thing that you had
code does that thing that you had pictured in your head.
pictured in your head. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And now there are billions of copies of
>> And now there are billions of copies of that thing that I had in my head running
that thing that I had in my head running on millions of pe or billions of
on millions of pe or billions of people's machines. And that in itself is
people's machines. And that in itself is really cool to me. It's not a vanity
really cool to me. It's not a vanity thing so much as a uh I'm impressed by
thing so much as a uh I'm impressed by it, I guess. Uh, how's your programming
it, I guess. Uh, how's your programming evolved over the years?
evolved over the years? >> I take a lot more care and complexity
>> I take a lot more care and complexity these days. So, it used to be you would
these days. So, it used to be you would write code and just keep writing code
write code and just keep writing code and writing code and then at some point
and writing code and then at some point I go back and clean it up. Well, I write
I go back and clean it up. Well, I write the other way now. I try to write really
the other way now. I try to write really clean initial skeletal code and then
clean initial skeletal code and then flesh it out because I have been
flesh it out because I have been involved in too many projects of my own
involved in too many projects of my own and of other people's makings where
and of other people's makings where things get so messed up that they're
things get so messed up that they're just not fixable.
just not fixable. And so sometimes the work you put in up
And so sometimes the work you put in up front pays off, you know.
front pays off, you know. >> What programming languages have you used
>> What programming languages have you used over the years? What's been your main
over the years? What's been your main go-to?
go-to? >> For me, it's been C++ and assembly
>> For me, it's been C++ and assembly language.
language. >> And still to this day, C++ is really
>> And still to this day, C++ is really what you lean on.
what you lean on. >> Yeah, right now I'm 100% Lua and Python,
>> Yeah, right now I'm 100% Lua and Python, but that's just side project I'm working
but that's just side project I'm working on. So,
on. So, >> can you speak to the Lua and the Python
>> can you speak to the Lua and the Python detour that you took? And uh what do you
detour that you took? And uh what do you love about C++?
love about C++? >> What I'm doing is I wanted to build an
>> What I'm doing is I wanted to build an AI to play the game Tempest. That's the
AI to play the game Tempest. That's the old Atari Game Tempest. And uh this is a
old Atari Game Tempest. And uh this is a game that I actually hold the world
game that I actually hold the world record on. And uh
record on. And uh >> you take me to this Atari Game Tempest.
>> you take me to this Atari Game Tempest. Okay. Atari Tempest. What kind of game
Okay. Atari Tempest. What kind of game is this?
is this? >> So it's a 3D vector game from 1980. And
>> So it's a 3D vector game from 1980. And it's a very complex game. You got full
it's a very complex game. You got full 360 degrees of motion. You have eight
360 degrees of motion. You have eight shots on the screen. There's like 11
shots on the screen. There's like 11 enemies. There's spikes. So it's a very
enemies. There's spikes. So it's a very complex game. It's not like trying to,
complex game. It's not like trying to, you know, do Pong or something.
you know, do Pong or something. >> Okay. And what I wound up doing was
>> Okay. And what I wound up doing was first taking the ROMs out of the machine
first taking the ROMs out of the machine and reverse engineering the code. So I
and reverse engineering the code. So I got a sense of where all the code in
got a sense of where all the code in Tempest lives and what it does, where
Tempest lives and what it does, where the zero page variables are, where
the zero page variables are, where things live. Yeah, there's one.
things live. Yeah, there's one. >> So what? Oh, wow. That's a very
>> So what? Oh, wow. That's a very geometric.
geometric. Okay. What uh can you explain to me the
Okay. What uh can you explain to me the game?
game? >> That's me playing the game right there.
>> That's me playing the game right there. >> This is literally you playing.
>> This is literally you playing. >> This is me. Dave is the high score.
>> This is me. Dave is the high score. You'll see in the top center there.
You'll see in the top center there. >> Can you explain to me what I'm looking
>> Can you explain to me what I'm looking at?
at? >> Well, it's a 3D geometric world. It's
>> Well, it's a 3D geometric world. It's basically 3D space invaders wrapped into
basically 3D space invaders wrapped into a shape and the enemies descend from the
a shape and the enemies descend from the center of the tube towards the outside
center of the tube towards the outside and they all have different behaviors
and they all have different behaviors and wow.
and wow. >> So, long story short, it's a fairly
>> So, long story short, it's a fairly complicated game to play well and I
complicated game to play well and I wanted to see if I could get an AI to do
wanted to see if I could get an AI to do it. And so once I had figured out where
it. And so once I had figured out where all the interesting parts of the game
all the interesting parts of the game lived in memory, I added them as
lived in memory, I added them as parameters and built a Lua app to
parameters and built a Lua app to extract everything from the game's
extract everything from the game's memory as it's running and put them
memory as it's running and put them together as parameters which sends it to
together as parameters which sends it to the Python side over a socket and then
the Python side over a socket and then the Python side does RL learning. I'm
the Python side does RL learning. I'm using a dueling deep Q and I believe
using a dueling deep Q and I believe >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> to uh with two a head and a tail and
>> to uh with two a head and a tail and they chase each other and it can play up
they chase each other and it can play up to about level 36 now which is way
to about level 36 now which is way better than most humans but that's level
better than most humans but that's level 96 so it's got a ways to go yet but
96 so it's got a ways to go yet but >> and uh you're the red thing shooting.
>> and uh you're the red thing shooting. You're controlling the red thing that's
You're controlling the red thing that's shooting.
shooting. >> Okay. What are the options? You can just
>> Okay. What are the options? You can just move clockwise or counterclockwise and
move clockwise or counterclockwise and then you can shoot.
then you can shoot. >> Yeah. So, you have a rotating knob,
>> Yeah. So, you have a rotating knob, which is an optical spinner, and you
which is an optical spinner, and you have a fire button and a super zapper
have a fire button and a super zapper for emergencies. But, uh, that's it.
for emergencies. But, uh, that's it. Fire and rotate, basically.
Fire and rotate, basically. >> All right, let's get back to your
>> All right, let's get back to your favorite C++. What do you love about
favorite C++. What do you love about C++? Why have you stayed with it for all
C++? Why have you stayed with it for all these years?
these years? >> Because it allows me to encapsulate my
>> Because it allows me to encapsulate my favorite C code in classes. I'm not a
favorite C code in classes. I'm not a big Well, I actually
big Well, I actually >> You're really a C guy. Okay, I got you.
>> You're really a C guy. Okay, I got you. >> Yeah, I'm really a C guy. Although, I
>> Yeah, I'm really a C guy. Although, I write two kinds of C++. I write really
write two kinds of C++. I write really modern C++ 20 using no pointers, no
modern C++ 20 using no pointers, no string or no character strings. Uh so
string or no character strings. Uh so there, you know, it's basically as safe
there, you know, it's basically as safe as Rust as far as I'm concerned.
as Rust as far as I'm concerned. >> Mh.
>> Mh. >> Or I write C with classes which is
>> Or I write C with classes which is standard C but you know with
standard C but you know with polymorphism encapsulation and that's
polymorphism encapsulation and that's most of what my code is. But uh I try to
most of what my code is. But uh I try to do both.
do both. >> Let me ask you about the whole stretch
>> Let me ask you about the whole stretch of time that we kind of skipped over. Uh
of time that we kind of skipped over. Uh you built a lot of software over the
you built a lot of software over the years after Microsoft on the side while
years after Microsoft on the side while at Microsoft and afterwards a lot of
at Microsoft and afterwards a lot of successful pieces of software. Uh one of
successful pieces of software. Uh one of your companies was software online and
your companies was software online and it got into trouble for nagging users
it got into trouble for nagging users too much I guess.
too much I guess. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> To upgrade. That's what I saw. What was
>> To upgrade. That's what I saw. What was all that about? And uh what did you
all that about? And uh what did you learn from that experience?
learn from that experience? >> Well, that was other than like family
>> Well, that was other than like family health scares, you know, when kids are
health scares, you know, when kids are sick. That was the scariest time of my
sick. That was the scariest time of my life. And the period leading up to it
life. And the period leading up to it was one of the most invigorating and
was one of the most invigorating and exciting because what had happened was
exciting because what had happened was while I was at Microsoft, I had written
while I was at Microsoft, I had written all these shareware utilities and was
all these shareware utilities and was selling them on the side and sold one to
selling them on the side and sold one to Microsoft as we talked about and they
Microsoft as we talked about and they started to do really well. And then I
started to do really well. And then I discovered banner advertising online and
discovered banner advertising online and so I signed up with my credit card for a
so I signed up with my credit card for a site I think was called FastClick. And
site I think was called FastClick. And you could say I will pay this much for a
you could say I will pay this much for a banner ad impression. Here's my banner.
banner ad impression. Here's my banner. And it would rotate it in. And I didn't
And it would rotate it in. And I didn't set a cap on it. I came back on Monday
set a cap on it. I came back on Monday and I saw I had spent like $10,000 in
and I saw I had spent like $10,000 in banner ads. I was like, "Holy crap, how
banner ads. I was like, "Holy crap, how am I going to explain this to my wife?
am I going to explain this to my wife? This is a bug. This is a mistake. It was
This is a bug. This is a mistake. It was my fault." And I looked at the sales and
my fault." And I looked at the sales and it had made like $38,000 worth of sales.
it had made like $38,000 worth of sales. And I was like, "Holy cow." So, all I
And I was like, "Holy cow." So, all I have to do is scale that at some point
have to do is scale that at some point and basically did that for the next
and basically did that for the next several years. And the reason we got in
several years. And the reason we got in trouble was the AG came in and they had
trouble was the AG came in and they had well I was blown away because they had
well I was blown away because they had like 12 court claims of action and 10 of
like 12 court claims of action and 10 of them were outrageous which to me as a
them were outrageous which to me as a person with autism I couldn't get past.
person with autism I couldn't get past. It's like I know these 10 things are
It's like I know these 10 things are absolutely not true. Why are we even
absolutely not true. Why are we even here talking about them and then all
here talking about them and then all they care is the two things that might
they care is the two things that might be true. And the two things that might
be true. And the two things that might be true were that it was a 30-day trial
be true were that it was a 30-day trial version. And after your 30 days were up,
version. And after your 30 days were up, it would then if you continued to run it
it would then if you continued to run it and not buy it or uninstall it, it would
and not buy it or uninstall it, it would remind you once a day, not like every 10
remind you once a day, not like every 10 minutes, but once a day or every time
minutes, but once a day or every time you booted your computer at most, once a
you booted your computer at most, once a day. And the AG contended that was too
day. And the AG contended that was too often. It amounted to spam. And so we
often. It amounted to spam. And so we agreed with them to limit it to once a
agreed with them to limit it to once a week, I believe. And you know, there had
week, I believe. And you know, there had to be a button to just uninstall with
to be a button to just uninstall with one click. So we did those kinds of
one click. So we did those kinds of things. The other one was in those days
things. The other one was in those days when somebody bought a piece of software
when somebody bought a piece of software even if they bought it online and got a
even if they bought it online and got a download they fully expected there would
download they fully expected there would be media showing up at their house. So
be media showing up at their house. So in the year 2001 which we're 2001 2003
in the year 2001 which we're 2001 2003 we're talking about if you bought
we're talking about if you bought software there was an expectation that a
software there was an expectation that a disc would show up and so we made that
disc would show up and so we made that the default was to fulfill by disc and
the default was to fulfill by disc and it was 3.95 or 4.95 extra and it was
it was 3.95 or 4.95 extra and it was very obvious but it was a checkbox and
very obvious but it was a checkbox and it was turned on to ship the disc to
it was turned on to ship the disc to your house cuz we found if we didn't do
your house cuz we found if we didn't do that we got all these calls people would
that we got all these calls people would wait they'd order 2 weeks later call
wait they'd order 2 weeks later call where's my disc and we look we didn't
where's my disc and we look we didn't order a disc well cancel it all I don't
order a disc well cancel it all I don't want it cuz I'm not waiting for it and
want it cuz I'm not waiting for it and so we got a lot of returns and we didn't
so we got a lot of returns and we didn't include the disc and so we decided to
include the disc and so we decided to include the disc but that is a a
include the disc but that is a a priority violation of negative
priority violation of negative affirmation billing in Washington state
affirmation billing in Washington state because you're giving them a default
because you're giving them a default higher purchase price. What about on the
higher purchase price. What about on the software
software user relationship? It's interesting like
user relationship? It's interesting like how often to annoy the user with a
how often to annoy the user with a thing,
thing, right? If you never mention anything,
right? If you never mention anything, they might never discover
they might never discover like something they actually want,
like something they actually want, >> right?
>> right? >> But if you mention it too much,
>> But if you mention it too much, then they can get annoyed.
then they can get annoyed. >> Yeah. And what you don't want is you
>> Yeah. And what you don't want is you don't want them to have to do it or buy
don't want them to have to do it or buy it or do something to get rid of it.
it or do something to get rid of it. That's one of the things that bothers me
That's one of the things that bothers me with um I think Windows does that a
with um I think Windows does that a little bit still to this day where it
little bit still to this day where it bothers me by asking me certain
bothers me by asking me certain questions like do you want this like um
questions like do you want this like um it for example I really don't like to
it for example I really don't like to use my Microsoft account to log into
use my Microsoft account to log into Windows right I think now it's like
Windows right I think now it's like basically required I think there's just
basically required I think there's just no way around it but like they make it
no way around it but like they make it so difficult to not do that it's almost
so difficult to not do that it's almost like they think they could just trick me
like they think they could just trick me into they it really does feel like I'm
into they it really does feel like I'm getting tricked into
getting tricked into not doing what I want to do
not doing what I want to do >> right
>> right >> like is I have to like think okay I need
>> like is I have to like think okay I need to click skip and it'll do something are
to click skip and it'll do something are you sure like I have to like use too
you sure like I have to like use too much of my brain to do the thing I like
much of my brain to do the thing I like you know as an as an interface you know
you know as an as an interface you know what I'm trying to do you're trying to
what I'm trying to do you're trying to trick me into not doing the thing I want
trick me into not doing the thing I want to do. And what I hate about that is
to do. And what I hate about that is like
like it's probably effective, sure, for
it's probably effective, sure, for converting people, but it's really
converting people, but it's really not good long term for taking care of
not good long term for taking care of the interest of the user.
the interest of the user. >> Yeah. The one that really throws me is
>> Yeah. The one that really throws me is the use recommended settings. So, I just
the use recommended settings. So, I just did a Windows upgrade. It went through
did a Windows upgrade. It went through the steps and I'm going through this new
the steps and I'm going through this new dialoger wizard and use recommended
dialoger wizard and use recommended settings. Sounds like the thing you
settings. Sounds like the thing you should do, but I'm pretty sure that
should do, but I'm pretty sure that resets you to using the Edge browser and
resets you to using the Edge browser and all this other stuff. So, yeah,
all this other stuff. So, yeah, recommended by them, but not recommended
recommended by them, but not recommended for me. And that's the difficulty.
for me. And that's the difficulty. >> That's a really good example. Like, what
>> That's a really good example. Like, what effect do you think that does in
effect do you think that does in resetting the default browser to Edge?
resetting the default browser to Edge? Do you think you're going to really earn
Do you think you're going to really earn the loyalty of a user if you do that?
the loyalty of a user if you do that? Don't don't you think that they're
Don't don't you think that they're actually what you're going to create
actually what you're going to create you're going to create some passive
you're going to create some passive loyalty from some user base. So on the
loyalty from some user base. So on the metrics it might actually look like
metrics it might actually look like you've increased the number of edge
you've increased the number of edge users but really it's that reputation
users but really it's that reputation hit you take over time where it just
hit you take over time where it just forms where the edge is the thing that
forms where the edge is the thing that you can't quite trust
you can't quite trust >> unfairly because I think Edge is a
>> unfairly because I think Edge is a really great browser but just this this
really great browser but just this this unpleasant feeling I don't know what
unpleasant feeling I don't know what that is and the
that is and the >> well you don't want your oper operating
>> well you don't want your oper operating system to be an adversary right and
system to be an adversary right and sometimes that Windows can feel
sometimes that Windows can feel adversarial like it doesn't have your
adversarial like it doesn't have your best interests at
best interests at And that bugs me to a certain extent.
And that bugs me to a certain extent. >> I mean, we have this feeling, I think,
>> I mean, we have this feeling, I think, we just have general distrust when
we just have general distrust when somebody is super nice to you and is
somebody is super nice to you and is basically selling something. There's a
basically selling something. There's a certain aura about that kind of
certain aura about that kind of interaction. And when an operating
interaction. And when an operating system is interacting you with you in
system is interacting you with you in that way, it's like, yeah, I would much
that way, it's like, yeah, I would much rather pay $1.99 for Windows Pro per
rather pay $1.99 for Windows Pro per year or 20 bucks a month or whatever the
year or 20 bucks a month or whatever the fee schedule would be and not be upsold
fee schedule would be and not be upsold any further and not have my data
any further and not have my data monetized and those kinds of things. So,
monetized and those kinds of things. So, Did you learn about finding the right
Did you learn about finding the right balance from that?
balance from that? >> Yeah, I I mean I'm way more self-aware
>> Yeah, I I mean I'm way more self-aware now. There's things I would do much
now. There's things I would do much differently, particularly in terms of
differently, particularly in terms of the advertising. I always figured
the advertising. I always figured there's a guy named David Oglevie and he
there's a guy named David Oglevie and he did this ad long ago for the Volkswagen
did this ad long ago for the Volkswagen Beetle where it had a picture of a
Beetle where it had a picture of a beetle, black and white, and it just
beetle, black and white, and it just said lemon
said lemon >> and there was a block of text below it.
>> and there was a block of text below it. So, it's clickbaity and then
So, it's clickbaity and then informational. And I always tried to
informational. And I always tried to follow that pattern. But there's three
follow that pattern. But there's three ways to sell something, I think. And you
ways to sell something, I think. And you can use sex, fear, or greed. and sex
can use sex, fear, or greed. and sex doesn't work very well for software.
doesn't work very well for software. Fear works well for antivirus and stuff,
Fear works well for antivirus and stuff, but not so much for optimization and
but not so much for optimization and make your computer faster utilities. And
make your computer faster utilities. And so I always tried to cater to the greed
so I always tried to cater to the greed aspect. Uh, you know, make your computer
aspect. Uh, you know, make your computer faster, get more RAM available, whatever
faster, get more RAM available, whatever the value proposition is. But I realize
the value proposition is. But I realize now that I'm looking at that with my
now that I'm looking at that with my knowledge and as an autistic person, I
knowledge and as an autistic person, I now have an appreciation that other
now have an appreciation that other people are going to look at it with
people are going to look at it with their background knowledge and may
their background knowledge and may conclude something different. So, I
conclude something different. So, I might be scaring people where I was just
might be scaring people where I was just trying to incentivize or get their greed
trying to incentivize or get their greed instinct going. So, I'd be more
instinct going. So, I'd be more sensitive about that kind of thing
sensitive about that kind of thing today.
today. >> Ridiculous question, but what do you
>> Ridiculous question, but what do you think is um the top three Windows
think is um the top three Windows operating systems, the different
operating systems, the different versions?
versions? >> I'm a fan of Windows 2000 server. That's
>> I'm a fan of Windows 2000 server. That's >> really
>> really >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> That's what I ran my business on and I
>> That's what I ran my business on and I ran my brother's business. We set up
ran my brother's business. We set up multiple salons all VPN to one another
multiple salons all VPN to one another and using the SQL server.
and using the SQL server. I don't know if I've ever gotten to
I don't know if I've ever gotten to experience Windows 2000 server. So, when
experience Windows 2000 server. So, when was XP out?
was XP out? >> 2001.
>> 2001. >> What was before XP?
>> What was before XP? >> 2000.
>> 2000. >> 2000. Was that good?
>> 2000. Was that good? >> Yeah, I liked it. I mean, it doesn't
>> Yeah, I liked it. I mean, it doesn't have the visual flash that came with XP,
have the visual flash that came with XP, but as a system and especially as a
but as a system and especially as a server operating system, it was great
server operating system, it was great for the day. But then XP was
for the day. But then XP was I would say probably
I would say probably from a completeness perspective and
from a completeness perspective and impact and how long it lasted. It was
impact and how long it lasted. It was probably the the greatest Windows from
probably the the greatest Windows from for consumers the operating system.
for consumers the operating system. >> I would think so. It certainly got the
>> I would think so. It certainly got the longevity for it. There's people would
longevity for it. There's people would still run it. I mean I'd still run it on
still run it. I mean I'd still run it on stuff if you get security updates cuz it
stuff if you get security updates cuz it does 98% of what I need Windows to do.
does 98% of what I need Windows to do. But
But >> yeah, that was incredible. I mean, so
>> yeah, that was incredible. I mean, so Windows 95, I'll probably put Windows XP
Windows 95, I'll probably put Windows XP as the number one for me and then
as the number one for me and then Windows 95 too.
Windows 95 too. >> What's your metric? Personal preference
>> What's your metric? Personal preference or industry impact or
or industry impact or >> industry impact stability just there's
>> industry impact stability just there's certain like just like with programming
certain like just like with programming you have code smell like how well all
you have code smell like how well all the features were orchestrated together.
the features were orchestrated together. how there's a
how there's a design philosophy that permeated the
design philosophy that permeated the whole thing and was consistent, not too
whole thing and was consistent, not too many features, not dumbed down too much,
many features, not dumbed down too much, >> right?
>> right? >> Uh but not over complicated, how often
>> Uh but not over complicated, how often it crashes the blue screen, all those
it crashes the blue screen, all those things.
things. >> I don't know if it's a very apt
>> I don't know if it's a very apt description, but I think of it as crisp,
description, but I think of it as crisp, so there's not a lot of rough edges. It
so there's not a lot of rough edges. It does what it does. Does it snappy? Yeah,
does what it does. Does it snappy? Yeah, you said you play slot machines and uh
you said you play slot machines and uh given that you uh love hardware and
given that you uh love hardware and software, you're the perfect person to
software, you're the perfect person to ask uh how do slot machines work?
ask uh how do slot machines work? >> Well, I'm happy to ruin them for you.
>> Well, I'm happy to ruin them for you. >> Okay,
>> Okay, >> so it's ironic to me that I play slot
>> so it's ironic to me that I play slot machines cuz I know it's a losing bet
machines cuz I know it's a losing bet overall, but there's a whole dopamine
overall, but there's a whole dopamine feast there of bright lights and high
feast there of bright lights and high contrast colors that I enjoy. So, I do
contrast colors that I enjoy. So, I do play them. But what happens is
play them. But what happens is internally there's basically a black box
internally there's basically a black box mechanism that does nothing more than
mechanism that does nothing more than generate the next random number and what
generate the next random number and what the outcome is in terms of uh
the outcome is in terms of uh probability and payout and then the game
probability and payout and then the game says I got to make up a movie to go
says I got to make up a movie to go along with that and maybe it's three
along with that and maybe it's three bars or whatever it is but there's no
bars or whatever it is but there's no correlation. It's not spinning the reels
correlation. It's not spinning the reels seeing where they land and looking that
seeing where they land and looking that up to see what you won. It's completely
up to see what you won. It's completely the other direction. It determines
the other direction. It determines whether or not or if you won and then
whether or not or if you won and then make something up to fit that scenario.
make something up to fit that scenario. that that indeed is ruining it for
that that indeed is ruining it for everybody
everybody >> a little bit.
>> a little bit. >> Uh what kind of code runs them?
>> Uh what kind of code runs them? >> I don't really know. I tried to get down
>> I don't really know. I tried to get down and get inside access to one and it was
and get inside access to one and it was very hard. They don't want to tell you a
very hard. They don't want to tell you a lot about them. I'm sure it's not that
lot about them. I'm sure it's not that deep of a secret, but
deep of a secret, but >> yeah,
>> yeah, >> cuz they're all basic Windows PCs, but
>> cuz they're all basic Windows PCs, but they're basic Windows PCs on top of a
they're basic Windows PCs on top of a very secure enclave of some kind that I
very secure enclave of some kind that I don't know a lot about.
don't know a lot about. >> Yeah, it has to be extremely secure,
>> Yeah, it has to be extremely secure, right?
right? >> Yeah. Well, in the 70s or 80s, there was
>> Yeah. Well, in the 70s or 80s, there was a tech in Vegas went around and he was
a tech in Vegas went around and he was burning his own ROMs for the slot
burning his own ROMs for the slot machines and with a back door in them.
machines and with a back door in them. And so when he serviced the machine, he
And so when he serviced the machine, he would just put his ROM in and he come
would just put his ROM in and he come back 6 months later and
back 6 months later and >> nice
>> nice >> invoke the back door.
>> invoke the back door. >> I love humans so much. Uh anyway, do you
>> I love humans so much. Uh anyway, do you have do you other other favorite kinds
have do you other other favorite kinds of uh systems like that?
of uh systems like that? >> I like a lot of old hardware. I restore
>> I like a lot of old hardware. I restore cars, so I do a lot of 1960s muscle
cars, so I do a lot of 1960s muscle cars, cars and trucks.
cars, cars and trucks. >> Nice.
>> Nice. >> And uh old computers. So, I restore
>> And uh old computers. So, I restore PDP11s has been my fascination and my
PDP11s has been my fascination and my special interest for the last 6 months
special interest for the last 6 months or so, and I've built a number of those.
or so, and I've built a number of those. >> Yeah, you uh I've seen like you posting
>> Yeah, you uh I've seen like you posting uh videos about it, the PDP183.
uh videos about it, the PDP183. Uh what's that whole project?
Uh what's that whole project? >> So, basically what it is is I had built
>> So, basically what it is is I had built a number of PDP11s. And so over the
a number of PDP11s. And so over the years I had acquired all these parts and
years I had acquired all these parts and I decided well let me build the best
I decided well let me build the best PDP11 that I can
PDP11 that I can >> and so it was kind of a quest to just
>> and so it was kind of a quest to just like you try to max out a PC I try to
like you try to max out a PC I try to max out a PDP11 so it's got 4 megabytes
max out a PDP11 so it's got 4 megabytes of memory which would be massive in the
of memory which would be massive in the day and yeah that's it there
day and yeah that's it there >> and it's got lots of blinking lights and
>> and it's got lots of blinking lights and I had to rewrite the BSD kernel to make
I had to rewrite the BSD kernel to make the lights work and
the lights work and >> what are we looking at here? What is
>> what are we looking at here? What is what's
what's >> So the very top is a PDB1 1170 control
>> So the very top is a PDB1 1170 control panel which we can largely ignore and
panel which we can largely ignore and then there's two chassis below that one
then there's two chassis below that one has
has >> what are the different knobs? Sorry to
>> what are the different knobs? Sorry to ask dumb questions here.
ask dumb questions here. >> Uh the knobs in uh control what view you
>> Uh the knobs in uh control what view you get of the LEDs.
get of the LEDs. >> Oh,
>> Oh, >> so normally you see the data bus and you
>> so normally you see the data bus and you can see the address bus and you can
can see the address bus and you can pause the machine and you can edit the
pause the machine and you can edit the address on the bus and you can deposit
address on the bus and you can deposit stuff into memory with the switches.
stuff into memory with the switches. >> Man, the haptic
>> Man, the haptic plus the LEDs.
plus the LEDs. That's what you like imagine a computer
That's what you like imagine a computer to be. That's so cool.
to be. That's so cool. >> That's so cool. And these are what? What
>> That's so cool. And these are what? What are these? These are DU1, DU2.
are these? These are DU1, DU2. >> Yeah, it's a weird floppy drive. It's a
>> Yeah, it's a weird floppy drive. It's a dual floppy drive with one stepper
dual floppy drive with one stepper motor. So, both heads seek together like
motor. So, both heads seek together like Siamese twins.
Siamese twins. >> Okay. So, what what kind of stuff are
>> Okay. So, what what kind of stuff are you doing with this? What are you trying
you doing with this? What are you trying to restore them?
to restore them? >> Yeah. So, I restore them. And
>> Yeah. So, I restore them. And >> does it actually run?
>> does it actually run? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Oh, the blinking lights are real.
>> Oh, the blinking lights are real. >> Yeah, it's all real.
>> Yeah, it's all real. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> Then I had to rebuild the kernel and all
>> Then I had to rebuild the kernel and all that. decided to learn the BSD kernel.
that. decided to learn the BSD kernel. I'm pretty familiar with it now
I'm pretty familiar with it now to get because you can't just add a
to get because you can't just add a device driver, right? You've got to
device driver, right? You've got to rebuild the kernel to add support for
rebuild the kernel to add support for whatever device. So, you add a new disc
whatever device. So, you add a new disc controller.
controller. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> It's time to build the kernel. So, you
>> It's time to build the kernel. So, you got to go find the source and find the
got to go find the source and find the code and
code and >> you can run code on this.
>> you can run code on this. >> Yeah. Uh you've written a couple of
>> Yeah. Uh you've written a couple of books on autism. Being autistic
books on autism. Being autistic yourself, I was wondering if you could
yourself, I was wondering if you could tell me about like fundamental
tell me about like fundamental differences about the mind of a person
differences about the mind of a person with autism versus a let's say a
with autism versus a let's say a neurotypical individual. Well, the
neurotypical individual. Well, the fundamental theory of thought for autism
fundamental theory of thought for autism is called monotropism. And basically
is called monotropism. And basically what that means is that my brain does
what that means is that my brain does one thing. It does it very intensely and
one thing. It does it very intensely and then when it's done, I can move on and
then when it's done, I can move on and do something else. But I'm not a
do something else. But I'm not a multitasker. I'm a serial single tasker
multitasker. I'm a serial single tasker by any stretch. Um, autism usually
by any stretch. Um, autism usually brings with it sensory sensitivities and
brings with it sensory sensitivities and repetitive behaviors, behavioral issues
repetitive behaviors, behavioral issues that compound it. And if they rise to
that compound it. And if they rise to the level where an individual can't
the level where an individual can't moderate or accommodate them in their
moderate or accommodate them in their life, it becomes a disorder. And that's
life, it becomes a disorder. And that's probably 1 to 2% of the population.
probably 1 to 2% of the population. >> What's the biggest benefit of life with
>> What's the biggest benefit of life with autism?
autism? >> Um, I can bring to bear an incredible
>> Um, I can bring to bear an incredible amount of focus and dedication on a
amount of focus and dedication on a particular task if it's and it has to be
particular task if it's and it has to be something I love. It has to be something
something I love. It has to be something that's rewarding. It has to be something
that's rewarding. It has to be something I can make progress on. And there has to
I can make progress on. And there has to be all these things that are true about
be all these things that are true about it. And it could be like a kid playing
it. And it could be like a kid playing with trains. I get that same feeling.
with trains. I get that same feeling. That said, you also uh said that you
That said, you also uh said that you struggle with uh ADHD.
struggle with uh ADHD. >> Yeah, a fair bit.
>> Yeah, a fair bit. >> So that's part of the component like
>> So that's part of the component like maintaining the focus
maintaining the focus >> or actually acquiring the focus is the
>> or actually acquiring the focus is the issue. So I'm very easily distracted. I
issue. So I'm very easily distracted. I fall asleep with noise cancelling
fall asleep with noise cancelling headphones or I can't fall asleep. That
headphones or I can't fall asleep. That kind of thing. But once I get locked in,
kind of thing. But once I get locked in, I'm very hard to distract. So it's kind
I'm very hard to distract. So it's kind of a paradox.
of a paradox. >> Oh, that's fascinating.
>> Oh, that's fascinating. >> It's hard to get into that state.
>> It's hard to get into that state. >> Okay. What's the biggest challenge of
>> Okay. What's the biggest challenge of life with an autistic mind?
life with an autistic mind? >> That I don't know what anybody else is
>> That I don't know what anybody else is thinking. So, I know what I would think
thinking. So, I know what I would think about this interaction if I was in your
about this interaction if I was in your position and I was you.
position and I was you. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And that's the best I can do. But I
>> And that's the best I can do. But I think most neurotypical people have a
think most neurotypical people have a sense of, well, Lex probably feels this
sense of, well, Lex probably feels this way or that way cuz he's acting this way
way or that way cuz he's acting this way and his reactions are this and his
and his reactions are this and his facial expressions say this. And that's
facial expressions say this. And that's all kind of lost on me. So, I run a
all kind of lost on me. So, I run a little proxy NPC game for everybody I
little proxy NPC game for everybody I deal with.
deal with. >> So, I guess that makes social
>> So, I guess that makes social interaction a little bit complicated.
interaction a little bit complicated. >> It can be. Yeah. Telephone is especially
>> It can be. Yeah. Telephone is especially hard because I rely on a lot of other
hard because I rely on a lot of other cues. And when somebody is just on the
cues. And when somebody is just on the phone and I just have their voice,
phone and I just have their voice, there's so much that's implied between
there's so much that's implied between people that I miss. And so I'm much
people that I miss. And so I'm much better on FaceTime where if somebody
better on FaceTime where if somebody makes a joke, they might smile after
makes a joke, they might smile after where on the phone I don't know if
where on the phone I don't know if you're being sarcastic or serious and
you're being sarcastic or serious and that kind of thing. So
that kind of thing. So >> So that's probably gotten you into
>> So that's probably gotten you into trouble over the years a bit.
trouble over the years a bit. >> Yeah. There's lots of times with my wife
>> Yeah. There's lots of times with my wife too where uh well to there's a certain
too where uh well to there's a certain literalism that comes with autism and we
literalism that comes with autism and we spent years where she would say
spent years where she would say something and I'd say but that doesn't
something and I'd say but that doesn't make sense. She you know what I mean
make sense. She you know what I mean like no I know what you said and I'm not
like no I know what you said and I'm not being just combative here. I literally
being just combative here. I literally only know what you said and I don't have
only know what you said and I don't have that. And uh I remember we've been in
that. And uh I remember we've been in meetings with people and uh you know if
meetings with people and uh you know if there's three or four people in the
there's three or four people in the meeting and I'm the only autistic
meeting and I'm the only autistic person, I'll tell that they've got this
person, I'll tell that they've got this communication loop going on and I feel
communication loop going on and I feel like you guys got to tell me what's
like you guys got to tell me what's going on cuz I really don't know what's
going on cuz I really don't know what's being said here. So
being said here. So >> you told me related to this that there
>> you told me related to this that there there was an early somewhat awkward
there was an early somewhat awkward encounter with Bill Gates. Uh can you
encounter with Bill Gates. Uh can you share this the story of that uh
share this the story of that uh interaction and how autism comes into
interaction and how autism comes into play here? Yeah, my very first summer at
play here? Yeah, my very first summer at Microsoft when I got the internship,
Microsoft when I got the internship, Bill had uh all the interns over. I
Bill had uh all the interns over. I guess it was 20 or maybe 25 of us uh
guess it was 20 or maybe 25 of us uh that got hired that year over to his
that got hired that year over to his house for burgers and beers and just
house for burgers and beers and just chat in the backyard.
chat in the backyard. >> And of course, it's still Bill Gates and
>> And of course, it's still Bill Gates and he's a big enough deal even then that
he's a big enough deal even then that you're a little nervous. And so my
you're a little nervous. And so my manager Ben, who was sort of my mentor
manager Ben, who was sort of my mentor at the time, took me over to introduce
at the time, took me over to introduce me to Bill because he knew him. And he's
me to Bill because he knew him. And he's explaining this to Dave. He's our intern
explaining this to Dave. He's our intern from Canada. And in the space of four
from Canada. And in the space of four months, he's done this feature in disc
months, he's done this feature in disc copy and smart drive. He listed off all
copy and smart drive. He listed off all the stuff I was doing. But I stopped
the stuff I was doing. But I stopped because I'm like, well, actually, it was
because I'm like, well, actually, it was 3 months. I had to interrupt them and
3 months. I had to interrupt them and they both kind of what? And they looked
they both kind of what? And they looked at each other and I realized that was
at each other and I realized that was the wrong time to
the wrong time to correct the guy. But uh
correct the guy. But uh >> Yeah. So you they bother like little
>> Yeah. So you they bother like little inaccuracies.
inaccuracies. >> Oh, it drive me crazy.
>> Oh, it drive me crazy. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And then you of course you don't
And then you of course you don't the the impact I might have on a on a
the the impact I might have on a on a casual social interaction.
casual social interaction. It's it's not trivial for you to be
It's it's not trivial for you to be aware of that.
aware of that. >> Yeah. I'm much better than I used to be.
>> Yeah. I'm much better than I used to be. Before I didn't know and I didn't know
Before I didn't know and I didn't know how injecting a correction meaninglessly
how injecting a correction meaninglessly into a conversation could impact and
into a conversation could impact and make the other person feel. Now I got a
make the other person feel. Now I got a better sense of it. What advice would
better sense of it. What advice would you have for folks who have an autistic
you have for folks who have an autistic mind on how to flourish in this world
mind on how to flourish in this world >> in terms of prosperity and finances? The
>> in terms of prosperity and finances? The biggest thing I can say is sell what you
biggest thing I can say is sell what you can do and not yourself. Because if you
can do and not yourself. Because if you go into a job interview and you try to
go into a job interview and you try to wow them with your personality and how
wow them with your personality and how amazing you are, it may or may not go
amazing you are, it may or may not go well. But if you can go in with your
well. But if you can go in with your portfolio of work and say, "Look, here's
portfolio of work and say, "Look, here's my GitHub history and here are the
my GitHub history and here are the awesome projects I contributed to and
awesome projects I contributed to and here's the actual algorithm I wrote and
here's the actual algorithm I wrote and this is what I do." I think you get a
this is what I do." I think you get a lot further with that. So whether you're
lot further with that. So whether you're playing the piano or writing code
playing the piano or writing code >> that said so much of software
>> that said so much of software engineering on uh large teams has a
engineering on uh large teams has a social component to it. Right.
social component to it. Right. >> It does and that was a liability for me.
>> It does and that was a liability for me. >> How do you how do you I mean what have
>> How do you how do you I mean what have you learned about how to solve that
you learned about how to solve that little puzzle?
little puzzle? >> I think the biggest deficit for me was
>> I think the biggest deficit for me was when I started to manage people because
when I started to manage people because now you're
now you're concerned about their hopes, dreams,
concerned about their hopes, dreams, aspirations, what motivates them. They
aspirations, what motivates them. They have entire lives that are kind of a
have entire lives that are kind of a mystery to me because I assume they want
mystery to me because I assume they want to be motivated and led and encouraged
to be motivated and led and encouraged and compensated exactly as I would.
and compensated exactly as I would. >> And that's not always the case. Some
>> And that's not always the case. Some people need a lot more affirmation. Some
people need a lot more affirmation. Some people just want money. Some people want
people just want money. Some people want to be in the important meetings and make
to be in the important meetings and make decisions. But I was largely oblivious
decisions. But I was largely oblivious to that. And so eventually I had to
to that. And so eventually I had to learn that everybody that you're
learn that everybody that you're managing has their own set of incentives
managing has their own set of incentives and priorities and they're completely
and priorities and they're completely different from what I think they
different from what I think they probably are. So you could, I guess,
probably are. So you could, I guess, make things more explicit and just
make things more explicit and just communicate better about like ask them
communicate better about like ask them about what their interests are.
about what their interests are. >> And that's something I started doing is
>> And that's something I started doing is overtly asking because it's hard for me
overtly asking because it's hard for me to nudge somebody there. I'm not good
to nudge somebody there. I'm not good with that kind of social dance. So
with that kind of social dance. So >> yeah, part of the social dance is
>> yeah, part of the social dance is there's a lot of stuff that's uh unsaid.
there's a lot of stuff that's uh unsaid. M
M >> you can kind of figure out you can read
>> you can kind of figure out you can read people but if that's you know with with
people but if that's you know with with autism it might be a little bit
autism it might be a little bit difficult to do that and so you have to
difficult to do that and so you have to make things more explicit plus like
make things more explicit plus like sarcasm and satire and humor might be
sarcasm and satire and humor might be difficult. Yeah,
difficult. Yeah, >> I would love to be a fly in the wall
>> I would love to be a fly in the wall some of your earlier interactions with
some of your earlier interactions with Microsoft.
Microsoft. >> Uh I mean some of the greatest engineers
>> Uh I mean some of the greatest engineers have mine like this. So
have mine like this. So >> yeah, I've had laptops thrown at me and
>> yeah, I've had laptops thrown at me and stuff and I'm sure it was my own fault.
stuff and I'm sure it was my own fault. So
So >> uh you write about the 10-second autism
>> uh you write about the 10-second autism test. Could you explain how this works?
test. Could you explain how this works? >> Yeah. Now there of course anything that
>> Yeah. Now there of course anything that has two answers has a high air rate, but
has two answers has a high air rate, but uh so what's more important to society
uh so what's more important to society as a whole from the people? Is it
as a whole from the people? Is it cooperation or creativity? And if you
cooperation or creativity? And if you had to pick one, which is the most
had to pick one, which is the most important? And most neurotypical people
important? And most neurotypical people will generally lean towards cooperation,
will generally lean towards cooperation, whereas people on the spectrum tend to
whereas people on the spectrum tend to lean towards creativity as individual
lean towards creativity as individual problem solvers.
problem solvers. >> Of course, there's some kind of error
>> Of course, there's some kind of error rate there.
rate there. >> So, if you want to double your
>> So, if you want to double your precision, you can use the second test,
precision, you can use the second test, which is you ask, there's a room with 10
which is you ask, there's a room with 10 chairs and six people come in and sit
chairs and six people come in and sit down in those chairs. How many chairs
down in those chairs. How many chairs are left?
are left? Now, some people are going to say four,
Now, some people are going to say four, but I'm going to say 10 because that's
but I'm going to say 10 because that's how many chairs are still there. clearly
how many chairs are still there. clearly true.
true. >> And I'm not being a dick. I'm not trying
>> And I'm not being a dick. I'm not trying to be complicated, but that is how my
to be complicated, but that is how my mind works. And so when I see that
mind works. And so when I see that question, it's like it depends how you
question, it's like it depends how you answer it.
answer it. >> So you're how literally you take things.
>> So you're how literally you take things. >> Yeah. Everything is very literal for me.
>> Yeah. Everything is very literal for me. I remember as a kid, my grandfather was
I remember as a kid, my grandfather was building a planter holder in the kitchen
building a planter holder in the kitchen for my mom and he was using these big
for my mom and he was using these big angle brackets that I thought were a
angle brackets that I thought were a little overkill. And I said, "Do you
little overkill. And I said, "Do you think that'll be big enough to hold the
think that'll be big enough to hold the plant?" And he says, "It'll be big
plant?" And he says, "It'll be big enough to hold a horse." and I was only
enough to hold a horse." and I was only five, but I was very confused about a
five, but I was very confused about a why you would bring a horse into your
why you would bring a horse into your kitchen, why you would put a horse up on
kitchen, why you would put a horse up on a planter and all of these things. It
a planter and all of these things. It didn't make any sense to me when
didn't make any sense to me when obviously it was a figure of speech, but
obviously it was a figure of speech, but for a lot of my life I took figures of
for a lot of my life I took figures of speech as literal. So,
speech as literal. So, >> uh you mentioned uh emotional
>> uh you mentioned uh emotional post-processing as a strategy you use to
post-processing as a strategy you use to replace social interactions so you can
replace social interactions so you can sort of reverse engineer to to help you
sort of reverse engineer to to help you understand the neurotypical world. Can
understand the neurotypical world. Can you I think this is going to be useful
you I think this is going to be useful to a lot of people like what what does
to a lot of people like what what does that entail? How does that help you?
that entail? How does that help you? >> So, if I meet somebody, particularly
>> So, if I meet somebody, particularly somebody new, and it's my first couple
somebody new, and it's my first couple interactions with them, is even meeting
interactions with them, is even meeting you today, then I will go home later and
you today, then I will go home later and replay all of the moments where I had
replay all of the moments where I had choices to make and probably the most
choices to make and probably the most uncomfortable ones first to find out
uncomfortable ones first to find out what did I do wrong in that moment, what
what did I do wrong in that moment, what did I miss, what was the other person
did I miss, what was the other person thinking, how can I improve that kind of
thinking, how can I improve that kind of situation next time, and do I need to go
situation next time, and do I need to go fix it or make a phone call? That kind
fix it or make a phone call? That kind of thing in a bad, you know, in a
of thing in a bad, you know, in a extreme case. But uh and that's happened
extreme case. But uh and that's happened a couple times in my life. Like I had a
a couple times in my life. Like I had a car restored that my dad had bought new
car restored that my dad had bought new in ' 69. I still have it. So we've had
in ' 69. I still have it. So we've had it 50 years and about 20 years ago I had
it 50 years and about 20 years ago I had it restored and it was like a three-year
it restored and it was like a three-year process of craftsman working on this car
process of craftsman working on this car for thousands of hours. And I go out to
for thousands of hours. And I go out to pick it up and I'm inspecting the car
pick it up and I'm inspecting the car and I'm very impressed with the work and
and I'm very impressed with the work and I'm saying, "Oh, this is nice and this
I'm saying, "Oh, this is nice and this is great." And everything else and then
is great." And everything else and then I fly home and write the check and the
I fly home and write the check and the car gets delivered. And then I realized
car gets delivered. And then I realized probably 10 years later that I had a
probably 10 years later that I had a whole bunch of craftsmen that had worked
whole bunch of craftsmen that had worked on my car for three years and I probably
on my car for three years and I probably should have blown some smoke up their
should have blown some smoke up their butts about what a great job they did,
butts about what a great job they did, but I never did that because it's not
but I never did that because it's not what I wanted or needed in that moment.
what I wanted or needed in that moment. And I was completely oblivious to that.
And I was completely oblivious to that. So I sent an email to the manager or to
So I sent an email to the manager or to the owner of the place and I said, "I
the owner of the place and I said, "I don't know if you remember this, but 10
don't know if you remember this, but 10 years ago, I picked up my car and I
years ago, I picked up my car and I probably looked unimpressed, but I want
probably looked unimpressed, but I want you to know that I was very impressed
you to know that I was very impressed with everything and the quality,
with everything and the quality, everything else." and he wrote back,
everything else." and he wrote back, he's like, "I've thought of that moment
he's like, "I've thought of that moment often."
often." So, I'm like, "Now I'm glad I brought it
So, I'm like, "Now I'm glad I brought it up."
up." >> There's subtle things about human
>> There's subtle things about human interaction that mean a lot to people.
interaction that mean a lot to people. And if you ask them straight up, they
And if you ask them straight up, they might not be able to sort of articulate
might not be able to sort of articulate that, but it means a lot. And when it's
that, but it means a lot. And when it's off, when something is off, it bothers
off, when something is off, it bothers them,
them, >> right? But to to reverse engineer that,
>> right? But to to reverse engineer that, to figure that out for a person who
to figure that out for a person who might not sense those little subtleties
might not sense those little subtleties of human interaction is tough. That's a
of human interaction is tough. That's a good point to jump in there too on
good point to jump in there too on empathy because there is some perception
empathy because there is some perception in the community that people with autism
in the community that people with autism lack empathy and I don't think that's
lack empathy and I don't think that's the case at all. Um I can only speak for
the case at all. Um I can only speak for myself. I feel fairly empathetic. But I
myself. I feel fairly empathetic. But I think the problem is a communication one
think the problem is a communication one and it works in both directions. whereas
and it works in both directions. whereas I don't know how you're feeling. So,
I don't know how you're feeling. So, it's hard for me to be empathetic with
it's hard for me to be empathetic with it until you communicate to me what it
it until you communicate to me what it is you're experiencing. And then once I
is you're experiencing. And then once I know once I have an understanding of
know once I have an understanding of what's going on in your head, I can feel
what's going on in your head, I can feel incredibly sorry for you. But other
incredibly sorry for you. But other until then, I'm going to assume you're
until then, I'm going to assume you're going to handle it just like I would in
going to handle it just like I would in your position in my case with what I
your position in my case with what I know now. What advice would you give to
know now. What advice would you give to people like on the other side how they
people like on the other side how they can help you be a better friend or
can help you be a better friend or better partner, better colleague, like
better partner, better colleague, like how they should communicate with you to
how they should communicate with you to help like give more information.
help like give more information. >> Yeah. Be really specific and don't
>> Yeah. Be really specific and don't assume I'm going to pick up on clues and
assume I'm going to pick up on clues and nuance and subtlety.
nuance and subtlety. So, if you're trying to nudge me into a
So, if you're trying to nudge me into a particular behavior, you're much better
particular behavior, you're much better off to say, "Dave, this is what you need
off to say, "Dave, this is what you need to do."
to do." >> Have I failed in any way today?
>> Have I failed in any way today? >> No, not yet.
>> No, not yet. >> All right.
>> All right. What what what score would you give me?
What what what score would you give me? 1 to 10. Am I a six a seven
1 to 10. Am I a six a seven communication? 75 floating point. Nice.
communication? 75 floating point. Nice. Uh masking. You got to tell me what that
Uh masking. You got to tell me what that is. Uh
is. Uh it's a significant experience for many
it's a significant experience for many on the spectrum. What is masking? And uh
on the spectrum. What is masking? And uh tell me about any of the experiences
tell me about any of the experiences you've had with masking. So masking is,
you've had with masking. So masking is, and it's probably not the right way to
and it's probably not the right way to describe it, but it's the act of acting
describe it, but it's the act of acting normal. And that is how do I conduct
normal. And that is how do I conduct myself in a social situation in a way
myself in a social situation in a way that other neurotypical people are going
that other neurotypical people are going to or that other people that who are
to or that other people that who are neurotypical
neurotypical are going to receive and accept it the
are going to receive and accept it the right way. Mhm.
right way. Mhm. >> And everything you do in a social
>> And everything you do in a social interaction from waving my hands to
interaction from waving my hands to taking facial expressions to tone of
taking facial expressions to tone of voice to posture,
voice to posture, it's a huge contrivance and it's work.
it's a huge contrivance and it's work. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Comes natural to most people. It's just
>> Comes natural to most people. It's just what they do and cool people do it
what they do and cool people do it really well. But for somebody on the
really well. But for somebody on the spectrum, you've got to fake it all.
spectrum, you've got to fake it all. >> Uh yeah, acting normal.
>> Uh yeah, acting normal. >> There's a song by Rush. You know the
>> There's a song by Rush. You know the band?
band? >> Yes. uh limelight and it's written by
>> Yes. uh limelight and it's written by Neil Per and I I only speculated about
Neil Per and I I only speculated about people that have passed on. So I've got
people that have passed on. So I've got a sense he was probably on the spectrum
a sense he was probably on the spectrum um but the line is something like all
um but the line is something like all the world's indeed a stage and we are
the world's indeed a stage and we are merely players performers and portrayers
merely players performers and portrayers each other's audience and he talks at
each other's audience and he talks at length in the song about you know not
length in the song about you know not being able to treat strangers as friends
being able to treat strangers as friends and being able to fake an affect and all
and being able to fake an affect and all that so it seems like he's struggling
that so it seems like he's struggling with masking a lot in the song and I
with masking a lot in the song and I have no idea but that was what I took
have no idea but that was what I took from it.
from it. >> Yeah. You describe meltdowns as an
>> Yeah. You describe meltdowns as an overwhelming experience. Can you
overwhelming experience. Can you describe meltdowns? What what typically
describe meltdowns? What what typically triggers a meltdown?
triggers a meltdown? >> Generally, it is. It's when you're
>> Generally, it is. It's when you're emotionally overwhelmed to the point
emotionally overwhelmed to the point that you can't manage your behavior
that you can't manage your behavior anymore. And so, you see it in the movie
anymore. And so, you see it in the movie Rainman when he's trying to get on the
Rainman when he's trying to get on the airplane and he's kind of forced and he
airplane and he's kind of forced and he starts losing it. That's a meltdown. Or
starts losing it. That's a meltdown. Or I've seen it on they did kind of a
I've seen it on they did kind of a actually probably the best portrayal
actually probably the best portrayal I've seen in media is uh what's the TV
I've seen in media is uh what's the TV show where the doctor is autistic?
show where the doctor is autistic? He's a Anyway, there's a TV show where a
He's a Anyway, there's a TV show where a doctor is autistic and he's a surgeon
doctor is autistic and he's a surgeon and he is eventually banned from surgery
and he is eventually banned from surgery because of his autism and he's always
because of his autism and he's always wanted to be a surgeon and he has a
wanted to be a surgeon and he has a complete meltdown and it's a pretty good
complete meltdown and it's a pretty good portrayal on television. So,
portrayal on television. So, >> what is actually happening? Like there's
>> what is actually happening? Like there's like a threshold you cross that it's
like a threshold you cross that it's just like
just like >> yeah a switch flips.
>> yeah a switch flips. >> It's like blue screen
>> It's like blue screen essentially.
essentially. >> Yeah. Kind of
>> Yeah. Kind of >> for the brain algorithm.
>> for the brain algorithm. >> So switch flips you go kind of a
>> So switch flips you go kind of a primitive brain. Your frontal cortex
primitive brain. Your frontal cortex shuts down to an extent I think. So you
shuts down to an extent I think. So you don't have the benefit of decision-m and
don't have the benefit of decision-m and filtering your very reptilian brain in
filtering your very reptilian brain in that state. And it's really a panic
that state. And it's really a panic state. And so it's a panic and a fight
state. And so it's a panic and a fight orflight response to not being able to
orflight response to not being able to tolerate the current reality. And
tolerate the current reality. And perhaps it's been so frustrating or
perhaps it's been so frustrating or you've been so randomized or you had a
you've been so randomized or you had a bad travel day or an argument at work or
bad travel day or an argument at work or whatever. It's added up to the point
whatever. It's added up to the point that something has now triggered you and
that something has now triggered you and your brain loses its ability to
your brain loses its ability to adequately moderate your behavior.
adequately moderate your behavior. >> Uh what about love and relationships?
>> Uh what about love and relationships? What are some of the challenges of that?
What are some of the challenges of that? And you know there's a show Love on the
And you know there's a show Love on the Spectrum.
Spectrum. >> I've heard of it. I've not seen it, but
>> I've heard of it. I've not seen it, but I've heard of it
I've heard of it >> because certain aspects like literal
>> because certain aspects like literal interpretation of things. It just makes
interpretation of things. It just makes the complexity of relationships of
the complexity of relationships of romantic relationships even more
romantic relationships even more explicit in that in that context. You
explicit in that in that context. You know, I've been married 31 years and
know, I've been married 31 years and together for 37, so a long history
together for 37, so a long history there. And I think our first indication
there. And I think our first indication that we knew we were very different was
that we knew we were very different was we were sitting in the car one night out
we were sitting in the car one night out front of the house at dark. And across
front of the house at dark. And across the street, there's kind of a nice house
the street, there's kind of a nice house and it has these big brick pillars that
and it has these big brick pillars that are linked by like anchor chains and it
are linked by like anchor chains and it forms a fence around the yard. And I'm
forms a fence around the yard. And I'm looking at these things cuz they're
looking at these things cuz they're about 2 ft square and I got a capstone
about 2 ft square and I got a capstone and I'm like, I wonder if they're hollow
and I'm like, I wonder if they're hollow or are they back filled? Are they
or are they back filled? Are they filming with concrete or what? And my
filming with concrete or what? And my now wife looks at me and she's like,
now wife looks at me and she's like, >> "What's wrong with you? Why do you have
>> "What's wrong with you? Why do you have a place in your head that cares about
a place in your head that cares about that?"
that?" >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And we just knew in the moment that I
>> And we just knew in the moment that I was passionately involved in caring and
was passionately involved in caring and she was passionately involved in why
she was passionately involved in why would you even worry about that kind of
would you even worry about that kind of thing. Knew her very different. So
thing. Knew her very different. So >> yeah, very specific, seemingly
>> yeah, very specific, seemingly irrelevant details.
irrelevant details. >> But uh I was never good with people.
>> But uh I was never good with people. I don't get it when people like me, I
I don't get it when people like me, I guess. And so I got and my son is the
guess. And so I got and my son is the same way because they all don't fall
same way because they all don't fall very far from three. And I got him a
very far from three. And I got him a t-shirt that says, "If you're hitting on
t-shirt that says, "If you're hitting on me, please let me know and be specific
me, please let me know and be specific because I'm clueless." And it's very
because I'm clueless." And it's very similar for me. I mean, I had to be
similar for me. I mean, I had to be around a long time and kind of grow on
around a long time and kind of grow on people because I had no game because I
people because I had no game because I had no ability to do the social dances
had no ability to do the social dances that that whole thing requires. So my
that that whole thing requires. So my only option is to just be myself and
only option is to just be myself and that works for some people.
that works for some people. >> Were you able to say like like I love
>> Were you able to say like like I love you, that kind of stuff.
you, that kind of stuff. >> Yeah. Uh, I mean, her family was way
>> Yeah. Uh, I mean, her family was way more open with that kind of thing than
more open with that kind of thing than mine was. And so, it was a growing
mine was. And so, it was a growing period for me, but yeah, that's not a
period for me, but yeah, that's not a problem I have.
problem I have. >> Okay. All right. But, but it seems like
>> Okay. All right. But, but it seems like unimportant. Uh, like, what is that
unimportant. Uh, like, what is that actually accomplishing?
actually accomplishing? >> Well, now we do a lot of affirmation and
>> Well, now we do a lot of affirmation and checking. Like in the last couple years,
checking. Like in the last couple years, we do a thing where she'll just be like,
we do a thing where she'll just be like, "You good?" I'm like, "Yeah." And
"You good?" I'm like, "Yeah." And there's two steps to that. There's the,
there's two steps to that. There's the, "Are you good?" And then there's my
"Are you good?" And then there's my response because if I'm like, "Yeah."
response because if I'm like, "Yeah." She knows something's up.
She knows something's up. >> Yeah. And so there's always this pinging
>> Yeah. And so there's always this pinging back and forth because there's not the
back and forth because there's not the ability to read people just from looking
ability to read people just from looking at them to know what's going on. So we
at them to know what's going on. So we have this explicit check mechanism I
have this explicit check mechanism I think where we've
think where we've >> developed that.
>> developed that. >> So there's a vast chasm between Yeah.
>> So there's a vast chasm between Yeah. and Yeah.
and Yeah. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Again that subtlety of human
>> Again that subtlety of human communication.
communication. >> Uh you've uh written about the
>> Uh you've uh written about the experience uh that people have of
experience uh that people have of feeling quote a little bit autistic.
feeling quote a little bit autistic. Could you elaborate on this concept?
Could you elaborate on this concept? >> Yeah, I think a lot of people, maybe 10
>> Yeah, I think a lot of people, maybe 10 to 20% of the population is somewhere on
to 20% of the population is somewhere on the autism spectrum, but isn't impacted
the autism spectrum, but isn't impacted by enough that it rises to the level of
by enough that it rises to the level of a disorder, but they still have many of
a disorder, but they still have many of the characteristics that arise from
the characteristics that arise from autism. And I think if they can
autism. And I think if they can understand and identify and manage some
understand and identify and manage some of those behaviors in an optimal way,
of those behaviors in an optimal way, they can both leverage them to take
they can both leverage them to take advantage of some of the skills and
advantage of some of the skills and mediate some of the deficits and
mediate some of the deficits and problems that come with it. And I wrote
problems that come with it. And I wrote it mostly for my kids because none of
it mostly for my kids because none of them, as far as I know, have ASD, but
them, as far as I know, have ASD, but they've all got certain aspects of my
they've all got certain aspects of my behavior that are particularly related
behavior that are particularly related to it. So, thought I'd write a little
to it. So, thought I'd write a little manual for them, basically.
manual for them, basically. >> Why do you think so many programmers
>> Why do you think so many programmers like excellent like great programmers
like excellent like great programmers and great engineers are on the spectrum?
and great engineers are on the spectrum? >> I think it's that single-minded focus
>> I think it's that single-minded focus and the ability to reduce a problem and
and the ability to reduce a problem and to be ultimately curious about what's
to be ultimately curious about what's inside stuff. That's been a obsession
inside stuff. That's been a obsession for me my whole life. what's inside. I
for me my whole life. what's inside. I got to take the my mom's oven apart
got to take the my mom's oven apart because I got to know how the flip clock
because I got to know how the flip clock works. Um, and I think that's a good
works. Um, and I think that's a good habit to have if you're going to be a
habit to have if you're going to be a programmer.
programmer. >> And being willing, being excited to get
>> And being willing, being excited to get into the details.
into the details. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh, what's a cool thing you uh
>> Yeah. Uh, what's a cool thing you uh hope to program to build this year? What
hope to program to build this year? What are you working on? So, we got we got
are you working on? So, we got we got the RL learning how to play Tempest. Uh,
the RL learning how to play Tempest. Uh, where are you on that, by the way? How
where are you on that, by the way? How like where what's the ETA on success and
like where what's the ETA on success and dominance
dominance like victory? Well, it's very close to
like victory? Well, it's very close to working. Um, I I think now it's tweaking
working. Um, I I think now it's tweaking the model size and layers and stuff like
the model size and layers and stuff like that to get it to learn past the one
that to get it to learn past the one threshold, but you know, it's a couple
threshold, but you know, it's a couple thousand lines of Lua and it's a couple
thousand lines of Lua and it's a couple thousand lines of Python and they all
thousand lines of Python and they all interact and they all work. So, it's
interact and they all work. So, it's like 95% of the work is done. Now, it's
like 95% of the work is done. Now, it's tuning hyper hyperparameters and hoping
tuning hyper hyperparameters and hoping for the best.
for the best. >> So, it's already a success in a sense,
>> So, it's already a success in a sense, but like now you're seeing like how far
but like now you're seeing like how far can this go?
can this go? >> Yeah. My goal was to be able to beat me.
>> Yeah. My goal was to be able to beat me. Huh, that's a tough
Huh, that's a tough >> It is, but lots of games now are, you
>> It is, but lots of games now are, you know, they play them better than humans,
know, they play them better than humans, but maybe not games this complex.
but maybe not games this complex. >> Uh, what other cool things are you
>> Uh, what other cool things are you working on? What do you hope to build
working on? What do you hope to build this year?
this year? >> Uh, the PDP11 stuff. I'm trying to get a
>> Uh, the PDP11 stuff. I'm trying to get a what's called an RA82 drive. It's the
what's called an RA82 drive. It's the big 14inch monster that spins at 3600
big 14inch monster that spins at 3600 RPM and sounds like a washing machine.
RPM and sounds like a washing machine. And then I'll find the controller card
And then I'll find the controller card and write the code and integrate it into
and write the code and integrate it into the driver and try to get that all
the driver and try to get that all working.
working. >> Uh, what kind of code are you trying to
>> Uh, what kind of code are you trying to run on it?
run on it? >> I'm going to have to get the driver
>> I'm going to have to get the driver stack to work. So I have to incorporate
stack to work. So I have to incorporate the driver for it into the kernel.
the driver for it into the kernel. >> You built a machine recently with one
>> You built a machine recently with one terabytes of RAM.
terabytes of RAM. >> Uh how did that happen and why?
>> Uh how did that happen and why? >> So we have a project called GitHub
>> So we have a project called GitHub primes. If you just search for GitHub
primes. If you just search for GitHub primes, you'll find it. And it is primes
primes, you'll find it. And it is primes >> a single set of prime number algorithms
>> a single set of prime number algorithms implemented in about 100 different
implemented in about 100 different languages. So it's the exact same
languages. So it's the exact same algorithm and we require that you follow
algorithm and we require that you follow certain rules to make it fair
certain rules to make it fair >> and then you express that algorithm in
>> and then you express that algorithm in whatever language you choose to the best
whatever language you choose to the best of your ability and we run a benchmark
of your ability and we run a benchmark every night and we compile the results
every night and we compile the results and find out which languages are
and find out which languages are fastest.
fastest. >> Is this the one?
>> Is this the one? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Oh, so this is uh so yeah, you got to
>> Oh, so this is uh so yeah, you got to and this is what that you're using this
and this is what that you're using this for?
for? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Oh, so this machine runs that those
>> Oh, so this machine runs that those tests?
tests? >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Okay. You got to tell me about this
>> Okay. You got to tell me about this project. This is an epic project. So
project. This is an epic project. So you're comparing the performance of the
you're comparing the performance of the different programming languages
different programming languages >> of all these languages. So they all get
>> of all these languages. So they all get built into an individual docker
built into an individual docker container and then they all run and
container and then they all run and >> this is an incredible project. This is
>> this is an incredible project. This is really really cool. It's really
really really cool. It's really measuring the performance of the
measuring the performance of the different languages. So what what have
different languages. So what what have you learned about which languages
you learned about which languages uh like who which language usually wins?
uh like who which language usually wins? >> Zigg I think right now
>> Zigg I think right now >> Zigg
>> Zigg >> it does it varies. People will make an
>> it does it varies. People will make an improvement to the C++ and it'll pass
improvement to the C++ and it'll pass for a while and then the Zig guys will
for a while and then the Zig guys will get angry and come back and make it
get angry and come back and make it faster. ZG, Rust, C++, C.
faster. ZG, Rust, C++, C. >> And what kind of code is being run?
>> And what kind of code is being run? What's the piece of code that they're
What's the piece of code that they're trying to run to measure the
trying to run to measure the performance?
performance? >> So, what they're doing is they're
>> So, what they're doing is they're solving the primes up to 100 million as
solving the primes up to 100 million as many times per second as they can in a
many times per second as they can in a 5-second loop.
5-second loop. >> So, it's a loop. Got it. Over and over
>> So, it's a loop. Got it. Over and over and over and over and over.
and over and over and over. >> Yeah. On all cores.
>> Yeah. On all cores. >> So, what
>> So, what >> across all CPUs?
>> across all CPUs? >> What about like how the program is
>> What about like how the program is written? Does that vary?
written? Does that vary? >> No. So you can do anything you want, but
>> No. So you can do anything you want, but it has to be a prime civ. You're allowed
it has to be a prime civ. You're allowed to use one bit per integer at most. So
to use one bit per integer at most. So you can't use a bite, which is cheaper
you can't use a bite, which is cheaper and easier.
and easier. >> Um there are a number of rules like that
>> Um there are a number of rules like that that you have to allocate the memory
that you have to allocate the memory within your timed loop. And so we have a
within your timed loop. And so we have a set of rules and we have uh some
set of rules and we have uh some solutions that don't follow the rules
solutions that don't follow the rules like the 6502 because you've only got
like the 6502 because you've only got 64k, you can't do 100 million civ. So
64k, you can't do 100 million civ. So there's a lot of solutions like that
there's a lot of solutions like that that we run as exhibition projects, but
that we run as exhibition projects, but among the main languages, they all
among the main languages, they all follow the same rules. And so it really
follow the same rules. And so it really should just be the how the algorithm is
should just be the how the algorithm is expressed in that language. And many of
expressed in that language. And many of them use the same backend compiler. So
them use the same backend compiler. So it really is how you're expressing and
it really is how you're expressing and the limitations or the benefits of that
the limitations or the benefits of that language.
language. >> Are there allowed to be multiple
>> Are there allowed to be multiple submissions per language?
submissions per language? >> Yep. Yeah. So if you look in the C,
>> Yep. Yeah. So if you look in the C, there's like five, I think.
there's like five, I think. >> Okay. And they they some of them might
>> Okay. And they they some of them might use different compilers or no.
use different compilers or no. >> Yeah. Some are GCC, some are C lang
>> Yeah. Some are GCC, some are C lang LLVM.
LLVM. >> I'm looking at a snapshot here from a
>> I'm looking at a snapshot here from a couple years ago. So Zigg was at the
couple years ago. So Zigg was at the top, then Russ, then Nim, Hasco.
top, then Russ, then Nim, Hasco. Oh, no. This is not this is not ordered
Oh, no. This is not this is not ordered by uh Slowness, or is it?
by uh Slowness, or is it? >> Yep.
>> Yep. >> So C would be 1.5 times as long as Zigg.
>> So C would be 1.5 times as long as Zigg. >> Wow.
>> Wow. Okay. Fascinating. Well, it's a super
Okay. Fascinating. Well, it's a super cool project.
cool project. >> Yeah, we've got crazy languages like
>> Yeah, we've got crazy languages like PowerShell. There's a version of
PowerShell. There's a version of PowerShell and stuff like that. So
PowerShell and stuff like that. So >> So this is automated like in terms of
>> So this is automated like in terms of organization of like how the submissions
organization of like how the submissions are done. There's a structure to it.
are done. There's a structure to it. That's cool.
That's cool. >> Yeah. There's two guys over in uh
>> Yeah. There's two guys over in uh Europe, Rucker and Tutor basically own
Europe, Rucker and Tutor basically own this now. I started as just three
this now. I started as just three languages. I did Python, C and C++. And
languages. I did Python, C and C++. And I checked them in and I published the
I checked them in and I published the episode and then people started throwing
episode and then people started throwing more solutions in there and it just got
more solutions in there and it just got out of hand. So I had to get somebody to
out of hand. So I had to get somebody to manage that one and they've been great
manage that one and they've been great doing that for me.
doing that for me. >> What's the happiest moment for you when
>> What's the happiest moment for you when you're programming and building a thing?
you're programming and building a thing? Like what do you enjoy most? I think the
Like what do you enjoy most? I think the the most fun for me is when I build
the most fun for me is when I build something complex and I thought through
something complex and I thought through how it should work and then I run it and
how it should work and then I run it and it does work that way.
it does work that way. >> That creates intense satisfaction.
>> That creates intense satisfaction. So seeing the results come out the way
So seeing the results come out the way that I plan them and have it work cuz it
that I plan them and have it work cuz it rarely does the first time. But
rarely does the first time. But >> yeah or especially if it does work the
>> yeah or especially if it does work the first time. No,
first time. No, >> I never trust that. I always feel like
>> I never trust that. I always feel like I'm missing something.
I'm missing something. >> That's true. Uh but you know with
>> That's true. Uh but you know with compiled languages like um with C++
compiled languages like um with C++ that's always a good feeling. You write
that's always a good feeling. You write a bunch of code, you compile and it all
a bunch of code, you compile and it all compiles without warnings, without
compiles without warnings, without errors. It's a cool feeling. Um what do
errors. It's a cool feeling. Um what do you think is the future of programming?
you think is the future of programming? So now I don't know how much you've got
So now I don't know how much you've got to really experience the impact of um
to really experience the impact of um LLMs with code generation.
LLMs with code generation. Do you use have you used cursor much
Do you use have you used cursor much cursor? VS Code with uh with w with with
cursor? VS Code with uh with w with with with code generation.
with code generation. >> Yeah, I've done a ton of it for this uh
>> Yeah, I've done a ton of it for this uh the Python side because I'm not great
the Python side because I'm not great with Python and I'm kind of new to it.
with Python and I'm kind of new to it. So, um I found it very helpful because
So, um I found it very helpful because I've learned a lot from watching the
I've learned a lot from watching the code that it generates if I don't know
code that it generates if I don't know how to do something because if I write
how to do something because if I write Python from scratch, it's going to be
Python from scratch, it's going to be about four times as long as what the AI
about four times as long as what the AI can crank out because Python can be
can crank out because Python can be pretty tourist if you're good at it.
pretty tourist if you're good at it. >> Oh, that's cool. So, just you you
>> Oh, that's cool. So, just you you essentially learn Python for this
essentially learn Python for this project.
project. >> Yeah. So this is a good case study of
>> Yeah. So this is a good case study of like a great programmer in C++ quickly
like a great programmer in C++ quickly learning a language.
learning a language. >> Yeah, I'm vibe coding my way through it.
>> Yeah, I'm vibe coding my way through it. I guess
I guess >> vibe coding your way through it. I that
>> vibe coding your way through it. I that is a really powerful use case to learn a
is a really powerful use case to learn a language for if you're already a good
language for if you're already a good programmer to learn either u a new
programmer to learn either u a new language or a new a way to approach a
language or a new a way to approach a problem by having it generated because
problem by having it generated because you already you probably understand the
you already you probably understand the Python code it generates.
Python code it generates. >> Yeah. like without actually looking up
>> Yeah. like without actually looking up any of the syntax.
any of the syntax. >> Yeah, it's all pretty self-explanatory
>> Yeah, it's all pretty self-explanatory once you see it, but you know, creating
once you see it, but you know, creating it from whole cloth is a little
it from whole cloth is a little different. So,
different. So, >> yeah. Uh but you still have to learn how
>> yeah. Uh but you still have to learn how to program in order to use it in that
to program in order to use it in that way.
way. >> Oh, and to read it to know what to tell
>> Oh, and to read it to know what to tell it to do next and all that. Yeah, I
it to do next and all that. Yeah, I don't think you can vibe code yourself
don't think you can vibe code yourself if you're just new and haven't coded.
if you're just new and haven't coded. But if you're a good programmer, AI can
But if you're a good programmer, AI can make you incredibly powerful.
make you incredibly powerful. >> What do you think is the future of
>> What do you think is the future of programming like 5, 10, 20 years from
programming like 5, 10, 20 years from now? this whole process. Now, VIP coding
now? this whole process. Now, VIP coding is kind of a fun meme thing because you
is kind of a fun meme thing because you still have to be
still have to be uh the people that don't know how to
uh the people that don't know how to program and are just VIP coding are
program and are just VIP coding are almost entirely creating systems that
almost entirely creating systems that are not usable in production. They're
are not usable in production. They're not you can't it's very difficult to
not you can't it's very difficult to create the a product.
create the a product. >> Uh and the people who are already great
>> Uh and the people who are already great programmers kind of vibe code just for
programmers kind of vibe code just for in the way that you're doing it. they're
in the way that you're doing it. they're basically it's just a fancy autocomplete
basically it's just a fancy autocomplete and they end up editing it or it's a way
and they end up editing it or it's a way to learn a new API or or a new language
to learn a new API or or a new language or a new whatever uh a new specific use
or a new whatever uh a new specific use case or maybe a different kind of like a
case or maybe a different kind of like a guey component or something like that
guey component or something like that but as they get smarter and smarter we
but as they get smarter and smarter we don't know where the ceiling is that
don't know where the ceiling is that might change the nature of what it means
might change the nature of what it means to be a programmer so um do you think
to be a programmer so um do you think about that
about that >> I do I think I don't want to say prompt
>> I do I think I don't want to say prompt engineer but I think it's going to be
engineer but I think it's going to be something like that in the sense that if
something like that in the sense that if you're an architect building a bridge at
you're an architect building a bridge at some point guys were down there welding
some point guys were down there welding beams together but now you're dragging
beams together but now you're dragging things around in AutoCAD and assembling
things around in AutoCAD and assembling from big pre free preform sections and I
from big pre free preform sections and I assume that's what programming will be
assume that's what programming will be like you won't be in there throwing
like you won't be in there throwing individual lines of code around you'll
individual lines of code around you'll be moving components and interfaces and
be moving components and interfaces and describing to the AI what those
describing to the AI what those interactions should be and letting it
interactions should be and letting it build the components but I think we're
build the components but I think we're still quite a ways from it being able to
still quite a ways from it being able to whole cloth generate you can't say give
whole cloth generate you can't say give me a Linux kernel is compatible with
me a Linux kernel is compatible with Linux. One day we'll be able to and
Linux. One day we'll be able to and it'll crank it out, but we're not there
it'll crank it out, but we're not there yet.
yet. >> Does it make you sad that we're climbing
>> Does it make you sad that we're climbing the layers of abstraction so quickly?
the layers of abstraction so quickly? So, you somebody that used to do machine
So, you somebody that used to do machine code and then assembly and C and C++
code and then assembly and C and C++ that we're getting to a point where
that we're getting to a point where we're vibe coding with natural language.
we're vibe coding with natural language. >> Yeah, I kind of came up at a really
>> Yeah, I kind of came up at a really fortunate time I think because I had to
fortunate time I think because I had to come up with the technology over the co
come up with the technology over the co course of 30 or 40 years. So I
course of 30 or 40 years. So I understand TTL logic and I can use AI to
understand TTL logic and I can use AI to write code and I kind of know all the
write code and I kind of know all the pieces in between. There certainly are
pieces in between. There certainly are holes in my knowledge but I think the
holes in my knowledge but I think the only way to have got that level of
only way to have got that level of knowledge or the completeness of that
knowledge or the completeness of that picture is to have lived it for that
picture is to have lived it for that long.
long. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And it's going to be hard to duplicate
>> And it's going to be hard to duplicate that for people starting now.
that for people starting now. >> What do you think is the meaning of this
>> What do you think is the meaning of this whole thing
whole thing of uh existence of life of whatever is
of uh existence of life of whatever is going on here?
making cool stuff. I guess fundamentally what I care about
I guess fundamentally what I care about is being able to make complex things
is being able to make complex things that are useful to other people, which
that are useful to other people, which leverages my abilities in a way that
leverages my abilities in a way that allows me to be creative and to create
allows me to be creative and to create things that other people can use in a
things that other people can use in a way that if I was limited to painting or
way that if I was limited to painting or sculpting or whatever in the classic
sculpting or whatever in the classic arts, I would be hopeless. Um, and so
arts, I would be hopeless. Um, and so for me, that's really the meaning of
for me, that's really the meaning of life. And then maybe you raise a couple
life. And then maybe you raise a couple good kids to hand the baton off to.
good kids to hand the baton off to. >> Yeah. And you've created uh a lot of
>> Yeah. And you've created uh a lot of cool stuff over your life. Um that
cool stuff over your life. Um that impacted millions probably billions of
impacted millions probably billions of people. Uh and now you're inspiring
people. Uh and now you're inspiring you're creating cool stuff for everyone
you're creating cool stuff for everyone to see on your YouTube and you're
to see on your YouTube and you're inspiring people in that way. So for
inspiring people in that way. So for everything you've done in the past and
everything you've done in the past and everything you're doing now, I'm I'm a
everything you're doing now, I'm I'm a big fan. and I'm really grateful for
big fan. and I'm really grateful for what you're doing and um grateful that
what you're doing and um grateful that we got a chance to talk today. Thank
we got a chance to talk today. Thank you, brother.
you, brother. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> Thanks for listening to this
>> Thanks for listening to this conversation with Dave Plameumber. To
conversation with Dave Plameumber. To support this podcast, please check out
support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And
our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words
now, let me leave you with some words from Bejorn Straup, creator of C++ and
from Bejorn Straup, creator of C++ and somebody who, by the way, I interviewed
somebody who, by the way, I interviewed a long, long time ago, episode 48 of the
a long, long time ago, episode 48 of the podcast. He said there are only two
podcast. He said there are only two kinds of languages. The ones people
kinds of languages. The ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses.
complain about and the ones nobody uses. Thank you for listening and hope to see
Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.
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