This content is an interview with singer-songwriter Olivia Dean, discussing her artistic journey, creative process, and personal growth, emphasizing vulnerability, authenticity, and the evolution of her music.
Mind Map
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I think I had a lot of imposter
syndrome. [music] I'm really good at
going into any room now and being like,
"Hello, I'm Olivia.
>> One of the hottest new names in music,
>> the one and only."
>> I've written a lot of terrible music
really. [laughter]
>> There are a lot of songs you have to
write to get to that song. That's what
makes the song special.
>> The deeper you go and the sort of more
you scare yourself, those are [music]
the things that resonate the most. I
remember I came in the studio that day
and I just laid on the floor and [music]
I just sort of cried and I was like, I'm
so heartbroken.
>> Who was it about?
>> I can't tell you that. [laughter]
>> Come on, please.
>> Tell me about making this album.
>> Oh my god, I have to make a second
album. How did I [music] even make the
first one? Wo, can I? Who am I?
>> How would you advise a young female
artist? I think the best songs come from
like 4 hours of amazing conversation and
tea and like talking about our lives and
then the song gets written in like an
hour. So if we can't have that, we have nothing.
>> This season is presented by NMPA, the
National Music Publishers Association,
champions of songwriters and publishers
everywhere. Welcome to And the Writer
is. I am your host, Ross Goolan. Today's
international music sensations
redefining modern soul. She leads this
generation of UK superstars with
effortless vulnerability. Her warmth,
wit, and emotional bite hasn't just
garnered Brits, but worldwide respect.
All the way from London, this artist is
a songwriter first, and the writer is
Olivia D.
Woo. Feels quite crazy for you to call
me like an international sort of artist.
That feels crazy.
>> Why does it feel crazy?
>> Because I feel so British and I just
feel like I'm sort of newly being
received here and it's like kind of
crazy to hear that. Like that intro was
kind of fab. Thank you. [laughter]
>> Hey, you're welcome. Uh I mean, how do
you keep your sense of uh Britishness in
in this?
>> It's hard to get rid of it. I sort of
the more time I spend out here, the more
British I feel. Yeah. [laughter]
>> Why is that?
>> I think just the accent. It sort of
comes out. I'm almost like a caricature
of myself. I feel
>> it gets stronger. Definitely.
>> It gets stronger. Yes, it gets stronger.
>> Do you think you could live in the US?
>> Um, maybe New York. I feel like I'm
still figuring out LA. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I um I like people. I like city and like
density and like stuff going on all the
time. So, I think LA maybe I'd find a
bit isolating. It's cool here though. I
like the sunshine. But yeah, I'm more of
a New York person, I think.
>> Yeah. I mean, New York's the best city
in the world. No offense to anywhere
else, but
>> Sorry, no offense, LA.
>> But I think the thing about LA is like
um you know uh you could step outside
here and it's silent
>> and you're in a major city,
>> but I find that kind of creepy. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And I love to walk. I love walking. And
I feel like the first time I came to LA
to do sessions out here, I had no like
credit on my phone. I didn't sort out my
data. And I would like leave a session
and be like, I guess I'll just walk. And
it was just like me and like a few
random people on the street. And I was
like, I don't think I'm supposed to be
out here. [laughter] >> When?
>> When?
>> I don't think I'm supposed to be out here.
here.
>> When was that?
>> I think I came to LA for the first time
in 2022. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> So, maybe 3 years ago. Yeah.
>> What was it like in 2022 for you to be
walking the streets here?
>> Um, very surreal. But I think being from
London, LA felt like a place where it's
like, wow, you know, like really serious
professionals work there. And I was very
overwhelmed and I think I had a lot of
imposter syndrome. Like I would be in
rooms and be like, "How did I manage to
get here?
They don't know. Oh my god." [laughter]
You know,
>> is the imposttor syndrome better or
worse now? Um, I think it's better now.
I feel way more confident in my writing
and like what I do. I think it's really
easy to step into spaces sometimes and
then feel like you should be doing what
everyone else is doing. But what I
think's good about my writing is the
Britishness and my authenticness. So,
I'm less likely to kind of mold myself
to a room now. I kind of would love the
like room to kind of mold around me, if
that makes sense.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean that takes a lot of
confidence and and direction. Also,
that's probably why, you know,
when you're in a room with an artist who
doesn't know what they want to sound
like and you have to drive the ship as a
writer, it's
>> quite tough.
>> It's tough cuz you're just trying to
write what you think a hit is from your perspective.
perspective.
>> Yeah. And then I think I found the first
time I would come and write out here, I
just would leave and listen to the music
and be like, "Wow, this is really vague.
I don't really hear myself in this. I
just hear kind of sound and words, but I
don't hear me. And I'm only really
interested in hearing like without
sounding narcissistic, but do you know
what I mean? Like totally myself in the music,
music,
>> you know, that it's weird cuz knowing
your music now, it feels like you have
that sort of direction or it's it sounds
like you.
>> Um, are there songs of yours that have
come out where you feel that they don't
represent who you are?
Um, I'm like an intense perfectionist.
So, I feel like I'm always like I would
never put a song out unless I absolutely
loved it. Like I have quite a high like
barometer of like stuff that comes out.
I've written a lot of terrible music
really [laughter] bad.
Um, I think maybe there's I have like
maybe one song. I'm not going to say the
song because then people will try to
sort of guess. But I have one song where
like the day it came out I cried. Yeah. Really?
Really?
>> Yeah. Cuz I was just like, I think I'm
better than this. But that was good
because it showed me like how far to go
in terms of like, you know, sometimes
you have to do something to know, okay,
that's really not me.
>> I really want to go the other way. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, it was necessary, but Yeah.
>> Did the Do you think your audience have
they listened to that music differently?
Like, does it stream about the same as
the rest?
>> Yeah. I don't think anyone would ever
know. I just think for me particularly,
I was just like
there's not enough feeling in it. And I
don't think every song needs to be this
deep meaningful thing. I think some
songs are really amazing that they're
light and they're fun and they're
playful, but there has to be an element
of in it of in it for me that is like
come from somewhere. Yeah.
>> And that one I think it didn't mean
anything. When you perform it now, do
you feel
does it does it feel like or when you
hear it now, whichever version of it, so
you don't have to give any hints away?
>> People are going to be like, "Which one
is it?"
>> Exactly. No, but [laughter] I mean, you
know, does do you feel like that's cool
because it marks a moment of, you know,
transition or does, you know, how does
that feel listening to that song now?
>> I really like performing it now. I think
it's just for me representative of like
a real chapter of learning. So I don't
regret it. It was just Yeah, it was a
different kind of process for me that one.
one.
>> There was an era when you could develop
as an artist and no one would know who
you are,
>> you know, cuz you'd you'd record a I
don't know a CD or a tape
>> and the only people who heard it were
the people who had it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But if it wasn't great and it didn't go
like viral, that's not really how that
that worked then. So now it's weird cuz
you develop yourself in front of
everybody. you start releasing stuff
from the outset and it's like all of
it's there.
>> And also a pressure to get it right so
quickly. Like I was reading something
the other day and it was like the BG put
out like eight albums before they had a
hit, you know, or like anybody was
really conscious of like, oh my god, the
beeges. And it's like I feel like now
it's like you need to get on the ground running.
running.
>> Yeah. Fleetwood Mac uh I think Rumors
was I want to say this might be wrong
but I think it's their 11th album.
>> No way.
>> Something like that. Like it wasn't like
it was a hit
>> either. I think that's the other thing.
It's like what what a hit is long term
is not necessarily what a hit is now. We
know songs that that hit number one that
aren't remembered and we know songs that
were number 30 that stood the test of time.
time.
>> Yeah. Or people are still wanting to
cover or come and see you play live and
like that isn't necessarily the song
that like charts or whatever. Like I
don't really feel like I've ever felt
the need to be in the charts in that
way. Like I think you can still make
like really meaningful music that
connects to people and makes people want
to come to the shows without it being
like a smash.
[laughter] But you kind of have that
now. Like I'm not kind of like you have
like smashes and it's like doesn't it
feel does it feel different?
>> It does feel different but I can only
describe it. It's like I didn't sit in
the studio. I never sit at the piano.
I'm like, I'm going to make a smash.
Like it's never that for me. So, it's
like the way it's gone recently. I'm
like, wow. Okay, cool. Guys,
>> do you feel Have you been recording a
lot since? Like, have you been recording
a lot in real time? Do you have any time
to do that?
>> You know, I'm not somebody that writes
all the time. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> I think I'm somebody that's like, I'm
going to live and then I'm going to
write about it. Yeah.
>> And I only write or I only write good
things when I'm like compelled to do so.
It's never like, well, what am I going
to say today? Like those songs.
>> What do you write for an album?
>> It depends. Um, this one was done over,
I guess, a shorter period of time. I
guess you have your whole life to make
the first one. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, I don't know, maybe like 40, 50.
>> Oh, so it's it's quite a bit. So, you
have a lot.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. A lot of duds.
You think they're duds or you think
they're waiting for their time?
>> No, they're duds. I think sometimes I
have an idea for a song or like a concept
concept
>> and I'll have to write like 10 bad
versions of it to get to the 11th
version that is actually the concept
crystallized if that makes sense. Like
there are a lot of songs you have to
write to get to that song.
>> Do you reuse titles for all these? >> Never.
>> Never.
>> It's weird. I was uh this is a weird
name drop, but I'm going to just do it.
Um uh I was in a session where
uh CIA said we're in a room with there's
like Stargate and Benny and a bunch of
these people
>> and CIA says something like oh cool
she's like looking at her phone or
whatever I don't know she's talking
she's like oh my song I'm making this up
like tornado is coming out and and two
of the producers were like oh that's
great that's cool she goes no no not
that one and then the other one's like
oh that's great and it's like no no not
that on. She just re she just rewrites
her thing until she gets it right. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Cuz it's her concept
>> and she's like, I'm just going to keep writing.
writing.
>> Like it's like it doesn't matter that
she's gone there and she doesn't mind
just diving,
>> you know, diving into it.
>> Yeah. I think that
>> sometimes there's like a pressure in
like I guess the session world where
it's like you need to kind of get it on
that day,
>> but it's sometimes it takes a really
long time to write one song. Like didn't
Leonard Cohen write Hallelujah for like years.
years. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I think there's something so romantic in
that, you know,
>> that song in particular is crazy cuz you
know it's the original his version's
uptempo. It's got 14 verses.
>> And then do you know the story of that song?
song?
>> Kind of.
>> It's like Jeff Buckley was
>> I love Jeff Buckley. He was housesitting
and heard the live version of Leonard
Cohen playing Hollow, which is much
slower. M
>> grabs a guitar while housesitting, does
his like cover of the cover of the fast
version with fewer verses and and and
basically, you know, makes you think
like right right now everyone has all of
the songs available on their phone, but
there was a time where it's be, well,
whatever vinyl is there or whatever CDs
there, that's what you get. Yeah.
>> And you're sitting there housesitting.
You're like, I'm going to put on this
this one thing, which then
>> triggers this thing of like, I'm going
to play >> crazy.
>> crazy.
>> Anyway, let's go tell your story a
little bit cuz you know,
>> sorry, Jeff Buckley. Back to me. [laughter]
[laughter]
>> Jeff Buckley who?
>> Yeah. No, sorry. We love Jeff.
>> Yeah, we do love Jeff Buckley. Very
talented, but brilliant. I mean, just
just Okay. Um, you were born.
>> I was born. >> Cool.
>> Cool. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Uh, you had parents.
>> I did, too. Yeah. Uh-huh. Um. [laughter]
Uh. So, tell me what what where where
are you born?
>> I was born in London. Don't know if you
can tell. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> Um to two parents. >> Uhhuh.
>> Uhhuh.
>> A mother and a father. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> Um and I grew up in East London. Not
really in a particularly like musical
household in the sense that like
my parents didn't play instruments or
kind of have any creative background
whatsoever. Um but they had a real love
for music. I feel like a real
fascination and a very eclectic music
taste. Like I just remember feeling like
they just liked a good song. It wasn't
like my dad likes rock and my mom likes
this. It was like we were listening to everything.
everything.
>> Um on car journeys in the kitchen and I
just always remember just being
fascinated by music. Musical theater
especially like that's where I kind of
really got like a love for it. I love
the drama. I love the orchestration. I
love the romance of it. Um, and yeah, I
started singing when I was eight years old.
old.
>> So, musical theater. Was it that your
family would listen to musical theater
soundtracks or you're going to musical theater?
theater?
>> No, that was kind of more my own personal
personal
>> Okay. [laughter] >> thing.
>> thing.
>> What did you discover first?
>> Um, Westside Story.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> I mean, whoa. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> Still now, like if I listen to that
soundtrack, like it moves me to tears.
Like if I listen to Maria, I get
goosebumps. like listening to that vinyl
at home on the weekend for me is like
very just like a reset. Um I loved like
Disney I guess when I was like eight
like Pocahontas for me. Run it back. Run
it back. Colors of the wind. I'd sit
there and sing that. [laughter] Yeah. Um
and yeah, I I was just very shy as a
child. So I think musical theater
allowed me to explore music and
storytelling and like storytelling
through song which I think is a real
skill and like performance in that way
but without having to tell my own story
which felt scary. I was just like I want
to talk about myself. Ew. So British
like don't look at me but look at me [snorts and laughter]
[snorts and laughter]
you know
>> don't look at me while I'm on stage.
>> Yeah stop looking at me guys. Um so I
think that was like a really safe space
for me. And then when I was like 15, 16,
I picked up a guitar and I started
learning piano. And then it was more
like covering Carol King and Amy and
like just sitting and just I would sit
for hours and just do covers, but like
not filming them just for myself, just
looking up the chords and like, "Okay,
now I can play this one. Okay, now I can
play this one." And not really even
performing them anywhere, just for my
own like pleasure. Um, and then I
started writing my own songs around
Yeah. 16.
>> What's the first song you wrote?
>> I [snorts] wrote a song called New Boy. [laughter]
[laughter]
>> How does it go?
>> Oh my god. Oh my god. There's a guitar
behind you.
>> Don't even.
>> Okay, fine.
>> That will never happen. No, it was a
song called
>> What is that? >> No,
>> No, >> that's
>> that's
>> There's a guitar.
>> No, there's so many guitars in here and
I will never pick them up.
>> Okay. Um, it was a song about like a
girl at school had like got a boyfriend
and like I'd never had a boyfriend
before and I was like she doesn't want
to hang out with me anymore because
she's got this new boy. [laughter]
>> Yeah. Like I was kind of angry. New boy
got your new boy. Yeah. [laughter]
>> Did you play that song for anybody?
>> No, never. That was just like the first
song I remember thinking this has got something.
something.
>> What was the thing?
>> It was kind of cool. like it was on like
electric guitar and like I just remember
thinking, "Wow, maybe I should pursue this."
this."
>> I mean, that's [laughter] a it's it's
weird just finishing your first song and
you realize, "Oh, I should write another one."
one." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, at what point do you say, "Hey, mom,
dad, uh, I have a skill."
>> I don't think I ever say I think they
overhear, you know, they overhear me in
my bedroom. And I remember my mom being
like cuz I went to a sports and
technology college like where I grew up
and neither of those things were really
speaking to me.
>> Why were you there?
>> That was just a local school. There was
like one school in area. You go to the
primary school then the secondary school
and then you know
>> and she was like there's this school
called the Brit School. Maybe you should
go. And I was like okay. You know she
showed me the website and she was like
you could study music or musical
theater. And I was like wow. Oh my god.
You know this is crazy. I mean, it's
super supportive.
>> Yeah, very supportive. Like, they were
never like,
>> "Aren't parents who aren't in music
supposed to say,
>> "No, you're not doing that."
>> Well, I think that
>> What did your parents do?
>> My mom's a civil servant,
>> so she works in law. She's like a child lawyer.
lawyer.
>> And my dad sort of had had lots of
different jobs, but he's very like got a
technical mind, like works with
computers a lot. And it's just like very
clever, very clever people. Um, and but
in my family, so my auntie's son, saying
that in a confusing way, was like an
actor and like a musician and a rapper. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You ever seen Top Boy? >> No.
>> No.
>> You know about So Solid Crew? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> He's in So Solid Crew.
>> Oh, that's cool.
>> Yeah. So it was like I'd seen like it
was kind of possible like
>> Yeah. The attainability is really helpful.
helpful.
>> Yeah. So I think my mom was like well it
can be a job and it like you can be
successful in it and I think maybe that
>> you can't understate how significant
that is
>> in a journey for a family to be like oh
no of course you can like my great cousins
cousins
interesting to think maybe if that
hadn't been the case they might have
been like uh no you're going to be a
doctor but I sort of don't think so. I
think that they really recognized like a
real love for me in it. Um, and I think
[clears throat] that can only be encouraged.
encouraged.
>> The Brit School's super famous, but
explain to our viewers what uh uh some
of the people who have been at the Brit
School and you know, maybe some of your
peers and stuff.
>> Yeah, I mean Adele
>> Amy went there for a bit. Um, Lola
Young, Ray, um, King Cruel, Rex Orange
County. You went to school with some of
those people, too.
>> Yeah, Ray and Lola, we were there at the
same time.
>> Are you guys on a text chain?
>> Not the three of us, but [laughter]
yeah, I know them both. Yeah,
>> which is crazy. Yeah, Ray was in the
year above me and I think Lola was in
the year below.
>> Uh, so you get into the school. How much
of musical theater was pulling you
versus the other part? So, I originally
was on the musical theater course and I
wanted to apply for the music course,
but I knew that I wouldn't get in. >> Why?
>> Why?
>> Because I had written all these songs
and like
was experiencing songwriting and a love
for being like an artist, but only
privately. Like in terms of writing like
a personal statement or like an
application, I had nothing to show for
it. Like I'd never done a gig. I'd never
like, you know, performed my own songs
or even shared them with anyone. So, I
was just like, this is kind of a lame
application, you know, but what I did
have was experience in musical theater.
And I was like, this is my plan. I'm
going to go in like a spy through the
musical theater course. I'm going to do
that for two years. I'm going to make
friends with all the people on the music
course. I'm going to make sure the
teachers know who I am, and then I'm
going to apply to change two years in.
And how they do it at Brit is if you
want to change course, you have to
audition. And if you don't get in, you
leave the school. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> You know, because it's like, no, you
can't go back. You're saying you're
dedicated to this. How dedicated are you?
you? >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> What did you audition to get into the
school initially?
>> What did I do? Gosh, I can't remember
now. I guess I would have just sung a
musical theater song. Maybe Pocahontas,
but it wasn't Pocahontas. [laughter]
I can't remember. I think we just sort
of Well, it's a written application and
then you go in and you sing a couple
songs. I I can't really remember. Such a
long time.
>> Did you perform before you did the
switch over to the music side? Did you
perform at all while you were there?
What shows were you in?
>> Um the musical theater shows.
>> My gosh, I have such a bad memory. Like
I'm such a present person, which I think
is such a skill, but it's like my past
doesn't exist. Yeah, I'm [laughter]
I I
>> It's like you're asking me that and I'm
like, um,
>> no, it's a real thing because when
you're writing a song, I know they're
there the people who can recall every
lyric and it's brilliant and it's
awesome. I don't know how you do it.
It's so cool. But if you don't remember
anything, you also never repeat anything
because you just walk in, you're like,
it's just, you know, you're like,
>> every day is a new day.
>> It's like Dory from
>> Exactly. That's me. Yeah.
>> Um, that is me. Uh,
so wait, so uh you you then auditioned
to get into
>> I then auditioned to get into music and
I'm busking in London. I'm sort of on
the streets with my guitar case open
just singing sort of like all my covers
that I've been practicing. [snorts]
>> Um, and I'm getting my songs together
and then yeah, I audition for the music
strand. Then I get in and then it's
like, "Oh, I'm in now. I'm a musician.
Forget the musical theater." Well, don't
forget. We're grateful. I'm doing this now.
now. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, and that kind of changed my life.
Um, the teachers were amazing. I was
introduced to so much amazing music. I
met like my best friends there. I met
Finn and Dan who still play in my band
now there. Like we've been friends and
been playing together for 10 years now. >> Amazing.
>> Amazing.
>> Which is crazy. Like there's videos of
me and Dan like busking on the street
and it's like 10 years later and we're
like going to play 602s together. Like
it's crazy. It's mental.
Six O2s together.
>> Yeah, it's crazy.
>> What was the first show you saw at the O2?
O2?
>> The first show I shot at the O2,
you know, I actually think it was Rudimental.
Rudimental. >> Oh,
>> Oh,
>> yeah. So, my manager when we met, hey girl,
girl, [laughter and gasps]
[laughter and gasps]
>> was um a day-to-day manager for
Rudimental at the time. Yeah. and she
gave the school tickets that see Rudimental
Rudimental
in exchange for being able to come to a
show at the school and I guess like look
at who was at the school. So then I went
to the O2. I remember sitting up in the
gods and being like wow the O2.
Um and then yeah.
>> Did you sit in those seats and think I
want to be on that stage or were you
just like this is just amazing?
>> I don't even think I was thinking that
at that point. Like I don't even know if
I'd done my own like proper gig yet. So
to think about playing an arena was like
it didn't even cross my mind at that point.
point.
>> When's the first proper gig?
>> Um is it servant jazz quarters? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> 2017 capacity is maybe like >> 70
>> 70
>> 70 tickets. And I was like >> wow.
>> wow.
>> I'm a star.
>> I was like damn I made it. Yeah.
>> Hey, 70 tickets for one human. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> It's not nothing.
>> And the stage was maybe like it was so
small and I had like 10 people on there.
Like it was like we were all crammed in
and we were watching videos of it the
other day and it's crazy to see.
>> Oh, is it is our videos like on
>> No, they're not online, but I have some
some footage and um but it's funny because
because
I was listening to the songs and I was
like gosh, it's kind of the same vibe.
Like I wouldn't say like the style of
music changed that much. It just I guess
honed. But I was like, "Wow, I've really just
just
been true to that." Like what I was
playing then is kind of the vibe of what
I'm playing now.
>> The step from that to, you know, you're
playing for 70 people.
How do you get sort of to the next level
to getting discovered,
if you will?
>> I mean, great question. How do you get
to the next level? Um, I think I just
then became really dedicated to like I
think I signed a publishing deal when I
was like Sorry, I'm just looking to her
for all my answers. How old was I like >> 2018?
>> So, so you have to get into a studio
after that or you were you recording
before that show?
>> No, I don't think I was recording and
then it was the
>> first time you get to a studio. First
time I get to the studio.
Oh my god. I haven't really thought
about any of this in such a long time. I
think maybe it was with Felix in Felix's studio.
[laughter]
>> I don't remember.
>> Yeah, it was like, okay, now I was
introduced to the world of sessions,
which obviously I had no clue what that
was. I' only just sat at home. And it
was like, yeah, you're going to go to
this stranger's house who you've never
met and you're going to just write a
[laughter]
>> sure." You know, you just turn up.
Hello, I'm Olivia. You know, and they're
just like,
and I'm like, [laughter]
[laughter]
and I did this session with this guy. I
don't remember who he was, so it's fine.
And he was like, "Okay, what do you want
to do today?" And I was like, "I guess
write a song." And he was like, "Well,
what I like to do, how I like to start
songs is like I like to look at the top
40 and then just pick one and then sing
my own melodies over that." And I was
obviously like, "Is that how you write
songs in the professional world?" Okay.
And so, so we did that for a bit and
there was like a lot of autotune
involved. And then at one point I was
just like, "I need to go home. I feel
really just this is not the right vibe."
And he was like, "Don't worry, I'll send
you the bounce." And I was like, "Okay."
I left and I was like, "Maybe it was
great." I was like, "Maybe that was
great. I'll wait for the bounce and I'll
see." Get the bounce.
It starts with an explosion [snorts]
and then he's like panned the sound of
high heels from left to right ear
like me walking into the room and then
it's just like my voice over this
horrible music sounding so like sad and
tired like [laughter]
and I remember I sent it to my manager
and she just replied like the poo emojis
like poo poo poo poo poo [laughter]
>> that's wild. What's it what was the song called?
called?
>> I have no idea.
>> How many times do you listen to that
song a year? I've listened to it twice.
I can't I can't listen back to stuff
from that time. It's like so
>> I feel like that should be a ringtone
just to keep you grounded.
>> Oh my god. But like I really like I've
got my chops. Like I have been to some
random studios. I've worked with some
random people. Like
>> is that you know how how is
without baiting an answer being a young
female walking into a room with often
men that are much older. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
What is that like?
>> It's crazy. And especially when you're
like 17, 18 and you're still figuring
out who you are and like what it is that
you want to say. And sometimes you end
up in these rooms and it's like
everybody's really telling you what you
are or what is the way to write a song
and you feel so like but I remember when
I was at home it felt so good. Why does
this feel so icky? you know. Um, but you
know, I don't regret any of that time
because I learned so much about myself
and I'm really good at going into any
room now and being like, "Hello, I'm Olivia."
Olivia." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I'm able to just
get off to like on the right start now.
like if I'm in a session or I'm in the
studio and allow myself to be in control
rather than just being passive and being
like kind of told what to do. I think
that was really essential for me like
growing up.
>> How would you advise a young female
artist who's just now getting into their
first rooms?
>> Uh I think get really good at saying no,
I don't like that. I don't like it. You
know, or get really good at saying, can
we try something else? Like I would do
these sessions where it was like I would
spend the whole day thinking I really
don't like this idea or this really
doesn't feel like me but not having the
courage to just be like can we start
something else? Can we just start
something else? And then it's like the
day wasted and you just sat there
feeling like small. Yeah. So I think
just get really good at saying no I
don't like that.
you've really, you know, a lot of your
collaborators are sort of like the, you know,
know,
to me it's the it's
a lot of people I've worked with in the
UK, they're like part of the UK writing
scene. It seems like you fell into the
safe place of it.
>> Yeah. [sighs and snorts] I
I just think ultimately I'm only
interested in working with nice people.
You could be the hottest Sorry, I
don't know if I can swear.
>> You can swear. Okay, you could be making
the hottest, you know, whatever [laughter]
[laughter]
>> but if I think you're a prick or I don't
enjoy your company, I've got no interest
in being in the studio with you. I think
the best songs
>> Have you ever left a session just like Yeah.
Yeah.
>> 20 minutes into it?
>> I'm [clears throat] so ill. Sorry, got
to go. [laughter]
Because it's like I think the best songs
for me personally come from like 4 hour
of four hours of amazing conversation
and tea and chat and like talking about
our lives and then the song gets written
in like an hour. So if we can't have
that, we have nothing for me personally.
>> You really start to get your stride. It
seems like right when co
>> I know annoying
>> hit. I mean, [laughter] it's crazy like
a lot of people either that's when you
either blew up or you disappeared. It
was like one of like it was a that's the
turning point for most people.
>> What was it about getting from you know
you're starting to get into sessions,
you graduate presumably? >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And you know uh
you know feel probably feeling like you
have some momentum and then hitting that wall.
wall.
>> It was really hard. It was like a
mixture of a weird time because it was
like yeah covid. So I that was like the
first summer I'd been booked for like festivals
festivals
>> and touring and like the live part for
me is the best bit. So I was so
heartbroken. I was like what? Like I'm
supposed to be playing festivals like a
real artist. Um and that was taken away.
And then I think that was kind of around
the time that like Tik Tok started to be
a thing which is crazy to think about
cuz when I put out my first song it
didn't even exist. Um, and so there was
a bit of like you need to like do slowed
up and sped down versions. I said that
wrong, [laughter]
>> but do you know what I mean? It's
stupid. So like there was all that going
on and I was like, God, I really don't
want to do that. That feels weird.
>> Yeah. Um, but we got a van and we
painted it yellow and then we just drove
around the UK and just opened the doors
and played for people and that was like
I guess my alternative to festivals, the
festival season.
>> When you release uh Okay, Love You Bye.
What were your expectations?
>> No expectations
that song. Wow. That song I made the
first day I met Ollie Bon who was like
who produced my first EP and it just
kind of fell out that song. It was so
fun to make and the studio we made it in
was like this kind of like converted pub
in East London and I just remember
thinking this is so fun and I and I was
like really into Paul Simon and Graceand
at the time and and I kind of felt that
influence on it and I feel like that was
the first song that I made that I felt
like free and not like it needs to be
this like pop thing like it felt so me
that song. What gave you the confidence
that that session, you know, why is that
session the one where you switched that
mindset up?
>> Because there just there was no
pressure. It just felt fun. Like I
really connected with Ollie and I think he
he
like wasn't heavy-handed in the way that
some people can be in the studio. Like I
think he just wanted me to just flourish
and was just there to support that and
hold me and say, "What do you think?"
Like it was one of the first people I'd
worked with that was like, "Well, what
do you like? What do you think the piano
sound should be like?" You know, what do
you like? How would you like the drums
to feel? Do you want to play piano? You
know, cuz I could play. And it was like,
"Yeah, I would love to play that little
line." And it just felt fun. It didn't
feel like work, you know?
>> Yeah. Yeah, it's impossible to go back.
>> And once you have that feeling, you're
like, "Oh my god, I can feel like this
all the time."
>> But also, that's the professional coowwriter.
coowwriter. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Versus the sort of like race to the
middle writers,
>> you know, the ones who kind of recognize
that. No, this is about like
>> experimentation and trying some stuff.
And it's okay if you fail, but it's
okay. Let's just all go ahead. Yeah.
Play whatever you want. Just like grab
that instrument.
like referencing anything that was like
>> popular at the time. Like it was like
we're referencing just things that we
both love, like our common ground in the
room rather than thinking about an
external person who's not in the room
and like what they would like. It was
just purely like what would we like to make.
make.
>> Did you release it on your own?
>> Um, no. I was signed to a label called
AMF Records.
>> Okay. And then that EB came out under
that and AMF was like in I think it was
Virgin at the time but then it became EMI.
EMI. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> How did they find you? This is before Joe.
Joe.
>> This is pre Joe.
>> How did they find me? Um I don't really
remember how they found me. I just
remember Emily, my manager. She's like
pointing me. [laughter]
Great manager. Um, yeah. I guess I had
done my publishing and then I just
remember we all went for lunch and it
was me, Emily, Mike, and Jordan and they
were like, "We think you're great. Like,
we want to sign you." And I was like, "A
record deal as well." [laughter]
Oh my god. Yeah. And I was like, "Yes,
I'm in."
>> Whatever it is.
>> Yeah, sure. Have me. [laughter]
>> It's weird. you because you can do that
deal and that can either you know that
moment a sort of a that's also a turning
point. Did you feel like at that point
that you had made it
>> 100%. I was like wow like I'm on a label
like there's going to be people that are
going to like help and like invest in
me. Wow I'm worth it. [laughter] >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
I mean, yeah. I mean, like they put
their money where their mouth is at that
moment and you end up going in and
recording the EP, you know. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, so tell, you know, the follow-up to
that, like obviously that that that song
comes out, you know, and that EP's got,
you know, 100 plus million streams,
>> which is crazy. So, it's like to go
from, you know, the
playing for 70 people and then trying to
explain that here's twice the population
of the United Kingdom listening to this
music. Did you ever have it get to your head?
head?
>> I don't think so. I feel like I try
really hard and think all the time about
not becoming a prick. That would just be horrible.
horrible. [laughter]
[laughter]
>> Cuz you know a lot of those people.
>> I've met some. Yeah. And it's just like,
oh no, it got to you. That's just Yeah.
>> I feel like most of the pricks I know
are people worried they didn't get there.
there.
>> Do you think
>> I do? I think most people who get there
wherever there may be
>> uh wherever their there is.
>> Yeah. Wherever their version of their is,
is,
>> you know, many of the people who who are
uh they they tend to be more grateful
>> and have
an acknowledgement of luck and chance.
>> Yep. You know, it's not to say like sure
they have the skill. A lot of people
have skill
>> 100%. A lot of people work really really
hard. And I think it's really important
to recognize that yet like yes, you've
worked on your skill or your craft or
whatever, but all the people around you
that had to believe in it and be there
to make it happen as well. Like it takes
a village of people to make an album or,
you know, do like a campaign or just
anything. a lot of people that people
don't see as well. You know,
>> the second uh EP comes out
like right in the like
>> Wow, great research.
>> You know what? Shout out Jen. Hi, Jen.
>> Wow, this is fun. I feel like I'm doing
a trip down memory lane.
>> That's good, right?
>> Yeah, it's great. I hope that that's the
kind of thing that, you know, if there's
uh, you know, as I always say, like I I
I don't know what this podcast is worth
to people, but I do know that it shows
it's it kind of started with this idea
that uh my mom used to say um I just
remember her telling somebody that I was
a struggling musician
>> and I said to my mom, I said, "No, I'm
just a musician."
>> I'm just musician. We stay struggling.
>> Yeah. But [laughter] we stay struggling.
And I think some of it is like when you
hear this journey that part of that
memory lane is this like even the
struggle of being massively successful.
>> Even the struggle of of like following
up things of of of dealing with
switching labels, the it's all a
struggle. It's a struggle the whole the
whole time. So, you know, this idea of
doing a second EP and having it land
like with a worldwide pandemic is not
exactly like it's pretty illtimed.
>> It was illtimed. I remember it was like
we were trying to get the hardest part
finished and also I hated that song. I
was like this can never come out. I was
like this is cringe. Yeah. Yeah. I had
to really come round to that song. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. >> What?
>> What?
>> Yeah. I didn't like it. I wrote it and I
was like, "This isn't good."
[laughter] And then my manager was like,
"It's really good." I was like, "Fine,
I'll finish it." You know, and then it
was like,
>> "Does that happen a lot?"
>> It does happen a lot. Yeah. I feel like
often with like It's like I'm almost
scared of the song. Like I kind of enjoy
the ones that are more like lowkey. Like
the ones that feel scary to me, I'm
like, "This isn't good." Or I'm unable
to tell like what it is. Yeah, it's
crazy. But yeah, I recorded the vocals
for the hardest part in my living room
and I did it on like Zoom with an
engineer. So it was like they like sent
the mic
>> those vocals that you
>> Yeah, they sent the mic to my house and
then I just kind of was like doing it on
like audio movers with the guy on Zoom.
>> Yeah. And then I was mixing it like in
my flat and like I was alone in co and I
was just like this is trash but they're
saying it's good. And then it came out
and I loved it. [laughter]
>> When did Yeah. When did you start
recording your own vocals?
>> I've always kind of messed around on
like Logic and Garage Band and I really
enjoy comping. Like quite enjoy that as
a process. Quite fun. Like I really
enjoy that.
>> You still comp all your vocals?
>> I like to sit there. I like to sit with
someone and like go through every single
take and like really labor over what
we're doing. And it's often not like
super comped, but and I really like to
record all the way through like front to
back the whole song every time. I don't
really like to do it in sections. Um,
but yeah, the performance is really
important to me of the vocal,
>> like the feeling in the vocal. The only
other women I know that comp their
vocals, and by the way, I shouldn't say
women, maybe artists in general,
>> but um uh Ariana
Ariana
>> and Megan Trainer,
>> it's so fun. It's like can determine so
much of like how a lyric lands or like
the tone or like how hard you sing one
word and the next. Like there's so much
power in the comp. I find it fun.
>> Yeah. But you also have to have the
skill to one recognize what's good or not.
not.
>> Um and a lot of times somebody thinks
that what they sing sounds good so
that's good enough
>> or they you know we probably get from
theater in some way is is how important
that delivery of a certain word is. I
think that's often more important than
like the note or like I don't know like
I kind of like sometimes if like maybe
the notes a bit janky but it made you
feel something because you're like ooh
maybe her voice cracked there because
she was sad and like that's more
important to me than like it being pitch perfect
perfect
>> or like who who or uh what is uh the
real hardest part um for you back then?
>> What do you mean
>> like what the song is? You know it's
like it it becomes like a heartbreak
anthem. about. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Who is it about?
>> I can't tell you that.
>> Come on. Please. [laughter]
>> I mean, you can.
>> No, I must protect people's privacy.
It's already intense enough to have
dated me and then me to make [laughter]
like all this music about it. Like, I
must at least protect your privacy.
>> Has Well, I mean, you we know of other
artists who've used real names and even
phone numbers and stuff in the past.
>> Never do that. I think that
>> Do you think that affects your personal
life? Do you think people like, you
know, do they, you know, do they want to
>> run away from me?
>> Do they?
>> No. [laughter]
>> Do you think I think I'm a catch?
>> I think you're a catch, too.
>> I think it's nice to have songs written
about you. No,
>> of course.
>> That like you've inspired somebody so
much that they want to like make a whole
album about you. I think it's really beautiful.
beautiful. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Or intense. Depends how you look at it.
>> Have you ever played an album or did you
play that song for that person? NMNPA is
our lead sponsor yet again. What is the
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Have you ever played an album or did you
play that song for that person?
>> No, never. I'm really intense like that.
It will be like the song will be stuff
that I've never said to you and like
never will and like I'll just put
>> But they have to know. No,
>> I'm sure they do, but we never talk
about it. Like I don't play stuff for
people ever like before it comes out.
Like I only sent my mom the album that I
just put out like a couple weeks before
it came out.
>> Was she so proud?
>> She loved it. Yeah, she loved it. But
like Yeah. Like sometimes I would even
send my manager songs and she's like,
"Well, I have to hear them [laughter]
because I need to help you get them
out." And it's like, "Fine, >> fine."
>> fine."
I mean, [laughter]
it's such a vulnerable process, but the
the more vulnerable you get, it seems
like the more the audience comes with you.
you.
>> Yeah, that's the catch. The deeper you
go and the sort of more you like scare
yourself, those [snorts] are the things
that resonate the most. Like
every time when I've been like, "That
song's too much." Or like, "Wow, that
one makes me cry." or like, "Wow, I
cried when I made that in the studio."
Like, they're always the ones that like
lost or people can hear that.
>> What's the most vulnerable song you've
>> A couple come to mind. I have a song
called Slowly on my second EP. Um, that
is one of the most the songs I'm most
proud of writing. Like, that felt just
like I was ripping out a piece of my
heart at the time. Um, loud on this
album I think is a really vulnerable
piece of music. You know, it's just like
single vocal, one take, front to back,
strings and a guitar. And it's like just
basically talking about how somebody
didn't want to fall in love with you.
Sad, [snorts] [laughter]
[laughter] >> embarrassing,
>> embarrassing,
>> you know.
>> When you wrote those songs, was it is it
weird to have a collaborator around? Do
they help you with lyrics, too?
Um, it wasn't weird because the people
that I wrote them with I was am and was
extremely comfortable with. I don't
think those songs could have been
written day one on a session with
somebody I just met. Like they were born
out of like years of collaboration. Like
Max and Bastian who I write a lot with
and are amazing just musicians and
people like we've been writing together
Yeah. since I was 17.
>> Yeah. Crazy. So when we get in the room,
it's like there's so much context on
each other, you know, not just my life,
but like their lives and like where we
all meet and what I would say or
wouldn't say and chords I love and
chords that just wouldn't work. And
yeah, I remember I came in the studio
that day and I just laid on the floor
and I just sort of cried and I was like,
I'm so heartbroken. Um, and then we
wrote that song. Yeah. In a day. Messy
is uh that's a good album.
>> Thank you.
>> Hey, good job.
>> Thank you.
>> Um uh that was a really good that was a
good one. You liked it?
>> Uh I like that one.
>> Um dive like set a new level for you,
you know, just as notoriety. It's sort
of where I feel like that's the first
time where I feel like it really crossed
over here. >> Interesting.
>> Interesting.
>> Why do you not feel that?
>> I just not I'm not really aware of like
that. But yeah, I guess that was the one
that kind of went [laughter]
[laughter]
>> well. It's a it's sort of vi it's the
ver virality of it, you know, and and
also like when you think about it timing
wise, like you were saying, Tik Tok
didn't even start really when it wasn't
a thing when you first did your first EP
and the second one was probably right at
the like the beginning of people really
using it.
>> Yeah, it was called like musically or
something, right? So, so what at what
point are you like, oh this is
this is like you, you know, at what
point is it has it left the station?
You're like, oh, this might be bigger
>> It's hard to tell. Like I'm not really
somebody who's like looking at stuff
online like that. Like for me it was
like I remember we would just be playing
shows and people would really sing along
to that one. Like that was like the
first time it was like people would sing
along to every word of the song rather
than like the chorus or like the end,
you know, or like they're just listening
and enjoying. But like I remember
thinking, "Wow, they're singing along to
all the words." Wow. All the words.
>> It's weird when you go to a city that
you've never been to before and they
seem to already know you.
>> It's crazy. It's crazy. It's like,
"Guys, I never been here or I'm so far
from home." Like when we just played in
Australia in February and people were
singing along, I was like, "Guys, I'm
really far. Like, this is crazy." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
It's It's not really made for humans to
have the communication with hundreds of
millions of people.
>> Like, you maybe talk to 200 people, not
200 million people.
>> It's really hard to like compute like
when you see like how much a song's like
streamed or something. Like it's really
hard to understand like actually how
>> in a good or bad way or neither.
>> I don't really know if it's good or bad.
I think my brain doesn't really work in
that way like with numbers. Like a
million people is a lot of people. Like
if your song gets listened to a million
times that's loads. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You know.
>> Yeah. And I mean you know man it needs
like getting 4 million a day. >> Really?
>> Really?
>> Uhhuh. Something like that. God on your stats.
stats.
I'm a smart guy. [laughter]
>> I can I can uh retain information I read
not that long ago. [laughter]
Um I mean I look at I look at charts
just like because I've got songs that
you know we either publish or that I
write around. So you just like are
constantly checking when you see certain
songs that are just wow that's been
sitting here for a while and
>> that's a lot of streams per day. You
know you just start noticing it.
>> But like going back to dive like uh
shout out to Tan
>> Sh. Wow. Yeah Trey.
>> He's great. Yeah,
>> he's been here before. Like him. Matt
Hills is great, too. >> Amazing.
>> Amazing.
>> Were you familiar with his his artistry before?
before?
>> Very much so. I was a big fan. I'd loved
everything he'd done with Leanne and she
was like a really important artist for
me like growing up. Like seeing somebody
that looked like me but like was playing
the guitar in the UK was really
important. And I always just remember
looking at the credits and seeing that
they' just done everything together,
those two, and thinking, "Wow, I'd love
to have that, or like I'd love to work
with Matt." And just I just thought his
writing was fantastic. Um, yeah,
>> one of the things that the music
industry does uh that I despise is this. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter] >> Uh
>> Uh
there's just not a real understanding of how
how
female artists that I know have it
seemingly harder and they also
the the pop stars I know and love almost
all of them write
>> and and the men I know that are pop
stars almost all of them take outside
songs and then say they write
>> really you know >> interesting
>> interesting
>> and but but I a lot of, you know, you're
you're playing instruments, you're
singing, you're you've earned it. You've
gone through this, you've learned how to
write, you've been writing for a long
time. M
>> um I feel like people look at you
differently than than other artists
because you have this because you play
instruments and because people see that
you you write. they see like the
struggle that it takes to play and and
it's like it just gives it this
authenticity that I think other women
don't necessarily if they don't play an
instrument they might not they might not
get that kind of respect that I think
that they that they deserve
>> that they deserve you know um in in your
case when you walk into a room
>> I mean again these writers are really
professional and I think now your
reputation precedes you a bit But even
in that messy stage when you're showing
up, do you feel like you have to educate
your coowwriters ever when you show up
in a room?
>> You know, it's really important for me
whenever I get into the studio with
somebody new or kind of less so now. I'm
more kind of work with the people that
I'm comfortable with. It's really
important for me to sit at the piano
straight away if there is one or a
keyboard. And any song that I've ever
written, I need to know what the chords
are. And so I'll have a piece of paper
in front of me and if we're working out
the chords, I'm like, "Okay, what are
they?" And I'm playing them as we're
writing the song. I like to have a
complete understanding of the structure
of the song. Okay, now what are we going
to do for the chords for the bridge? And
like that allows you to kind of feel at
the helm in a way. And other people are
playing as well. And sure, you can jump
on the piano, too, but like I'm here at
the root of it. Um, we're not going to
record anything until we've written it.
Most of the time, I'd never really start
with production. It's always like we're
starting in the room together and then
we can think about how we want to
produce it. I like to work that way.
>> Where do you get your lyrical inspiration?
>> Um,
>> do you come in with a title, a concept?
Do you just sort of start singing
something? just start singing something
really. Sometimes I'll come in with like
more of a feeling like I have to write a
sad song today. Like sometimes I'll come
and be like I'm feeling sad so we will
be writing a sad song today. Like I
can't write something up tempo if I feel
sad or vice versa. So, it's mostly
feeling led and like I'll have little
lyrical ideas, you know, in my notes and
things, but
again, it's about reading the room. Like
sometimes I'm like, I'm really precious
about this idea and I'm not sure about
you yet. So, today I won't say that one [laughter]
[laughter]
or like I really think that that would
be great with this person. Like, they
would understand that lyric, you know?
Like, I've often found like I really
enjoy weird lyrics. Like, you know,
there's no reason why the word cutlery
should be and nice to each other.
They're like, that's ridiculous. But I
knew that Matt would understand that,
you know, or like
>> that's what makes it sound special.
>> Yeah. Like I know I'm able to read the
room and understand what I think other
other people will understand. Um, so
yeah, I think songwriting is really
about just reading people, you know,
outside like to get the inspiration, but
also like in the room when you're working
working
>> like for movies, TV, books, things like that.
that.
>> What do you mean?
>> Do you get inspired by those?
>> Not really. [laughter]
[laughter]
>> Fair enough.
>> It's more people in real life. Like I've
never um
>> made up like a situation for a song or a lyric.
lyric.
That's interesting.
>> Yeah. Like,
>> are they all autobiographical?
>> Yeah, absolutely. Like, I've had times
before where like the song's been good,
but I know it's made up, so I'm like, I
don't want to sing it.
>> I have to change that lyric to make it real.
real. >> Why?
>> Why?
>> Cuz it doesn't do anything for me. Like,
I have to go up and sing it for the rest
of my life. And it's like, I don't want
to sing lies.
>> Yeah, but they don't have to be lies. I
mean there there's like an there's an
era of writing where you know uh you
know Elanor Riby is not about something
that you know Paul McCartney is feeling
you know.
>> Yeah that's great for Paul but fair
>> it's not my vibe
>> you know.
>> Yeah it would be it's like it it's sort
of what makes the writing songs for others
others
>> fun sometimes because then you can go
and and be that for a day. Do you write
songs for other people?
>> Never have done. why
you're such a skill. You're so good at it.
it.
>> And maybe in the future, but I just um
it just again it feels so personal to
me. Um it's such a therapeutic exercise
for me and
yeah, I don't know. I'd like to in the
future. It'd be interesting to kind of
let go of some of the preciousness I
clearly have, [laughter]
but no, it hasn't happened yet. The art
of loving is
uh fantastic and it's
it's becoming even more and more
successful over time. You know, I mean,
it generally just came out
>> like a couple weeks ago
>> and it's like it's out of this world.
It's just like
>> it's it's so in it's so insane
>> in the making. Tell me about the
approach to making this album.
>> Um, it was quite a journey. I think I
definitely fell into that, oh my god, I
have to make a second album. Uh, how did
I even make the first one? Whoa, I have
to do it again. Can I? Who am I? [laughter]
[laughter]
Um, and I had written a few songs that I
liked, like Nice to Ether, and I'd come
out here and I'd written um, Easy with
Amy and John. And I liked it. And then I
kind of got lost. There was a whole
middle chunk where I was like, I don't
know what the hell I'm doing. I'm making
bad stuff.
>> It was really bad or it was like, or is
it what you thought?
>> It wasn't doing anything for me. I had
no desire to release it or like work on
it. And then I really honed in on the title.
title.
>> Where did it come from?
>> Uh I went to an exhibition here in LA
before a session um called All About
Love, which was in response to Bel
Hooks's book, All About Love, which I'd
like devoured and loved and was so
inspired by. And then I was like, "Ooh,
it would be interesting for me to make
an album in response to the book and the
exhibition." and do like a case study
almost on love.
Whoa. Quite fun. I could learn about
myself. I could document the last, you
know, two years of my life basically.
Um, and I could heal and close the
chapter. And wouldn't that be fun? And
then once I had that, I was like, "Okay,
great. I'm going to go back to London.
I'm going to work with the people I've
been loving working with. We're going to
rent a house for eight weeks. I'm going
to bring in my piano from my house and
we're going to do eight weeks solid. I'm
going to sleep there and at the end of
the eight weeks, whatever I wrote, that
was the album. No more no more writing.
>> I mean, that's the that's the dream
scenario. What did you learn about love
in the making of The Art of Loving? Um, well, love is really scary
well, love is really scary and can make you feel really powerless
and can make you feel really powerless sometimes, but I think making this album
sometimes, but I think making this album made me realize that I'm so full of it
made me realize that I'm so full of it and I have so much to give and it exists
and I have so much to give and it exists everywhere outside of romantic love,
everywhere outside of romantic love, like all around you. And I think we put
like all around you. And I think we put so much pressure on romantic love and a
so much pressure on romantic love and a lot of them the music is about romantic
lot of them the music is about romantic love for sure, but I think by the end
love for sure, but I think by the end and a lot and I would say the chronology
and a lot and I would say the chronology of the album is kind of as it happened.
of the album is kind of as it happened. I just felt such a love for my friends
I just felt such a love for my friends and the women in my life and my family
and the women in my life and my family and
and I'm thankful for all the, you know, the
I'm thankful for all the, you know, the heartbreak and the stuff that happened
heartbreak and the stuff that happened cuz it allowed me to make this music.
cuz it allowed me to make this music. Um, but it's a skill, love. It's not
Um, but it's a skill, love. It's not like a fantasy mystical thing that you
like a fantasy mystical thing that you know just happens to you if you're
know just happens to you if you're lucky. No, it's real. You have to
lucky. No, it's real. You have to manifest it and cultivate it and keep
manifest it and cultivate it and keep looking at it and keep working at it,
looking at it and keep working at it, you know.
you know. >> Are you good at love?
>> Are you good at love? >> I think so. Yeah.
>> I think so. Yeah. >> Are you better at love now since you
>> Are you better at love now since you made the album?
made the album? >> I think so. Yeah. I think I'm talking
>> I think so. Yeah. I think I'm talking about it all the time.
about it all the time. >> So, [laughter]
>> So, [laughter] I have to hold myself accountable to be
I have to hold myself accountable to be good at it. Sure. Um, and
good at it. Sure. Um, and yeah, I think I just I've been through a
yeah, I think I just I've been through a lot of different types of love and being
lot of different types of love and being loved and the absence of love. And
loved and the absence of love. And >> do you have love now?
>> do you have love now? >> Yeah, so much love.
>> Yeah, so much love. [laughter]
[laughter] >> Do you have time
>> Do you have time >> to love?
>> to love? >> Yeah,
>> Yeah, >> of course. I love every day. What do you
>> of course. I love every day. What do you mean?
mean? >> I don't know. Like, you know, you said
>> I don't know. Like, you know, you said love.
love. >> Sure.
>> Sure. >> Yeah, of course. There's always time. I
>> Yeah, of course. There's always time. I think um
think um >> you're traveling all over the world.
>> you're traveling all over the world. You're doing shows all the time.
You're doing shows all the time. >> You make the time.
>> You make the time. >> Yeah. I mean, it makes all the stuff
>> Yeah. I mean, it makes all the stuff they even, you know, it makes it all
they even, you know, it makes it all worthwhile. Like it's
worthwhile. Like it's for me if I can I make sure I'm home for
for me if I can I make sure I'm home for dinner. I make sure I take my kids to
dinner. I make sure I take my kids to school.
school. >> I'm not doing that.
>> I'm not doing that. >> No, I get that. [laughter] But like for
>> No, I get that. [laughter] But like for me, that's like that keeps the rest of
me, that's like that keeps the rest of it
it um it makes all this way more fun. M
um it makes all this way more fun. M >> if I focus my life around the love part.
>> if I focus my life around the love part. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> But it's it's taken a a long time to get
>> But it's it's taken a a long time to get to
to >> All right. I have to make sure like keep
>> All right. I have to make sure like keep the priorities straight.
the priorities straight. >> Do you think you're good at love?
>> Do you think you're good at love? >> Um I think I'm
>> Um I think I'm I think I'm good at prioritizing love.
I think I'm good at prioritizing love. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> I think I sometimes I have to work at I
>> I think I sometimes I have to work at I always say I'm a recovering narcissist.
always say I'm a recovering narcissist. >> Interesting. you know, so I think
>> Interesting. you know, so I think there's like learning learning learning
there's like learning learning learning that my uh that self is really not that,
that my uh that self is really not that, you know, it's not that interesting.
you know, it's not that interesting. Honestly,
Honestly, >> this podcast changed a lot for me.
>> this podcast changed a lot for me. >> Cuz we did this like, you know, we we've
>> Cuz we did this like, you know, we we've done 200 and something episodes.
done 200 and something episodes. And when you start a podcast, everyone
And when you start a podcast, everyone starts a podcast. This thing's old now.
starts a podcast. This thing's old now. It's like nine years old, right? And
It's like nine years old, right? And when you start it, you're like, "Oh, I'm
when you start it, you're like, "Oh, I'm going to have this going to be a
going to have this going to be a conversation with two friends. We're
conversation with two friends. We're just going to be chilling.
just going to be chilling. >> And then you hear back those first
>> And then you hear back those first episodes, you're like, "Ah, I'm couldn't
episodes, you're like, "Ah, I'm couldn't care less about what I've said."
care less about what I've said." >> Shut up.
>> Shut up. >> Yeah. And he's just It was It was a
>> Yeah. And he's just It was It was a giant magnifying glass.
giant magnifying glass. >> And like what my ego sounds like. Now
>> And like what my ego sounds like. Now it's Now it's visual. We're moved on.
it's Now it's visual. We're moved on. It's a whole other thing.
It's a whole other thing. >> I couldn't recommend enough. People
>> I couldn't recommend enough. People should record themselves for an hour and
should record themselves for an hour and listen back. You don't have to do it for
listen back. You don't have to do it for however many, you know,
however many, you know, >> but you'll learn a lot.
>> but you'll learn a lot. >> You will learn a lot how you
>> You will learn a lot how you communicate,
communicate, >> what's important to you,
>> what's important to you, >> you know, what questions do you ask,
>> you know, what questions do you ask, >> do you listen?
>> do you listen? >> And the opposite of talking, when I grew
>> And the opposite of talking, when I grew up, the opposite of of talking was
up, the opposite of of talking was waiting.
waiting. [laughter]
>> That's real. >> Just me now.
>> Just me now. >> Yeah. [laughter]
>> Yeah. [laughter] >> It's like it's a room full of like that.
>> It's like it's a room full of like that. is like who's who's next?
is like who's who's next? >> Wow. I love that self-awareness in you
>> Wow. I love that self-awareness in you though. That like that takes quite a
though. That like that takes quite a lot.
lot. >> Uh it's a bizarre thing like having all
>> Uh it's a bizarre thing like having all these conversations. You're doing
these conversations. You're doing interviews all the time.
interviews all the time. >> What have you learned about yourself
>> What have you learned about yourself from doing interviews?
from doing interviews? >> Um sometimes I ramble on too much. I've
>> Um sometimes I ramble on too much. I've had to learn that sometimes just answer
had to learn that sometimes just answer the question and then be still because
the question and then be still because in that gap after the question is where
in that gap after the question is where you end up saying stuff that you didn't
you end up saying stuff that you didn't mean to say. [laughter]
mean to say. [laughter] Yeah,
Yeah, >> sometimes sit in the silence.
>> sometimes sit in the silence. >> Sometimes don't feel the gaps. I think
>> Sometimes don't feel the gaps. I think I'm quite like
I'm quite like I don't know if a people please is the
I don't know if a people please is the right way to put it, but like I like
right way to put it, but like I like people to feel comfortable. So if I were
people to feel comfortable. So if I were to feel like an awkward tension, like I
to feel like an awkward tension, like I would just fill it and like throw myself
would just fill it and like throw myself under the bus rather than just like
under the bus rather than just like letting it be uncomfortable. You know,
letting it be uncomfortable. You know, >> I try to bring this into songwriting
>> I try to bring this into songwriting >> that it's more interesting if you have a
>> that it's more interesting if you have a weird cadence.
weird cadence. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Interesting.
>> Interesting. >> Than it is to do this is how I'm going
>> Than it is to do this is how I'm going to say every single sentence here.
to say every single sentence here. That's not really that interesting.
That's not really that interesting. >> We've heard that.
>> We've heard that. >> Space is interesting.
>> Space is interesting. >> Space and weird space.
>> Space and weird space. >> Mhm. and the way I've learned to
>> Mhm. and the way I've learned to communicate from this podcast and from
communicate from this podcast and from having conversations and now I'm you
having conversations and now I'm you know on some boards and I'm involved
know on some boards and I'm involved with so many different organizations. So
with so many different organizations. So how I speak and what I say has a
how I speak and what I say has a different weight now
different weight now >> and it changes how in a session how even
>> and it changes how in a session how even if you want to talk about love the
if you want to talk about love the choices in when you say certain things
choices in when you say certain things >> giving the listener an opportunity to
>> giving the listener an opportunity to hear every line to hear the word
hear every line to hear the word cutlery.
cutlery. >> It's one thing to have the word and use
>> It's one thing to have the word and use it in a song. It's another to write it
it in a song. It's another to write it in a song in a way that the audience can
in a song in a way that the audience can hear that
