This content is a transcript from a congress focusing on human rights, humanism, and citizenship, with a particular emphasis on inclusive education and social intervention. It highlights the challenges and complexities of promoting equity, diversity, and democracy in educational and social systems, influenced by market forces, identity politics, and evolving democratic ideals.
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Good morning.
We still have
There are plenty of participants to join
to be accredited for this second day, but
However, let's begin...
our work. We already have many as well.
People who follow us are online. As
He said yesterday, this is a congress that has
the mixed modality, in which there is in fact the
opportunity for many people
to participate. We have among the
participants in this room in person
and online more than five hundred of
participants. Therefore, 500
The number of participants in this event exceeded...
In fact, our expectations are even
We had to change the amphitheater room.
because we moved to this larger room
to be able to accommodate so many people.
It's a good thing that's the case. That means
This event has been very well received and
because of the quality of the conferences that we
We have presented it, and it certainly deserves it.
That it be very well publicized.
This is our second day of work.
Yesterday we had a conference of
Opening with Professor Henrique
Ravieres Dias Gutieres, an excellent and
which received excellent feedback. Yeah, it is
recorded on YouTube, we can go back to
View. Many people asked if
They can view it, they can go back to
to visualize these interventions, such as
all the interventions of this congress.
Today we will also have another
excellent opening conference for the
second day with Professor David
Rodrigues, who also everyone
He knows a lot in Portugal, like everyone else.
We, the Portuguese, know and...
We are accustomed to quality and excellence.
of their interventions. This intervention
Professor David Rodrigues will
mediated by Professor Margarida Belgium.
Belgium.
But just like yesterday, I expressed my gratitude.
to the organizing committee and support
legitimate site through Vanessa and
From Lígia, I would also like to leave a
thanks to other people who
They collaborate on these two days and they are not
less important and are no less
Important, they have given support.
fundamental for logistics and
organization of this congress. A, and are
students, doctoral students and
master's students who are collaborating
Join us in organizing these two days.
and in the preparation for referral to
the parallel sessions. This support is
fundamental and also deserves to be
highlighted. And if you'll allow me to...
Allow me, let me just highlight two here.
people who also symbolize others
students, but the a eh Maira,
Maira,
Maira, I apologize, Maira Félix, uh,
who has been following the room here and that
He will give us the floor, if we
we need to ask some questions to
our guest speakers and also the
Ricardo Bacalhau, in support of eh
computer science which is fundamental for
transmission. live and for
broadcasting this event to the world
whole. Thank you all very much, and then...
I wish you a good day at work. Logo
next we're going to have we're going to have the a
thematic conference on education and
inclusion. Immediately following the intervention of
Professor David Rodrigues with a
communication entitled Education
inclusive, a path of rights and
duties. Thank you very much. Good morning, [applause]
Good morning everyone. It's a big one.
It is an honor to be here to present my
dear friend David Rodrigues, longtime friend
date, since the complicities of
Introduction of Technologies in Education
in 80 from 85 onwards. And now it is too.
in this role, from whom have I learned?
very much in this area of social inclusion and
educational. So Professor David
Rodrigues is a professor of education.
In particular, he obtained his doctorate in
University of Lisbon.
Can you hear me?
No, this is better, isn't it? So I'm going
repeat. Professor David Rodrigues is
special education teacher, obtained the
doctorate at the University of Lisbon and
He taught at Portuguese universities and
foreign countries like Belgium, Brazil and
China. He ended his teaching career in
2015 as a full professor.
He worked on international projects.
for UNESCO, UNICEF, Humanity and
Inclusion, on topics of rights.
Humans and social and educational inclusion. AND
guest speaker in countries of
Europe, Africa, Asia, America
from the North and the South. He published 32 books.
and dozens of articles in magazines specialty.
specialty.
He is the founder of the Pro-Inclusion Association and
He was its president between 2008 and 2020. He is
director of the Inclusive Education magazine
same association. He received in 2017 the
leadership excellence award
international by the Council for Expeditional
Children of the United States. In 2020,
He was awarded the gold medal of
human rights by the Assembly of
Republic. In 2023, it was agreed by
President of the Republic with the great
Grand Order of Instruction for High Command Officers
public. He has been a member of the Council since 2015.
National Education.
So, Mr. Counselor, thanks.
Wow, this is pretty weak.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Ah, that's better now. It's better. Eh,
I wanted to say that the applause that
They hit me, it was for the presentation, because
I still haven't said anything. That question
Regarding the excellent conference, it's always...
an expectation that may not be
It's filled in, isn't it? but it was for the
presentation. Oh, I wanted to, I wanted to.
Greetings to everyone present here.
And to say that it's a great pleasure to be here,
It's a great pleasure to be here, especially because
This is an opportunity we have to reflect.
again on things, to reflect,
to reflect, to think again about the
things and think again about the
human rights, think about it again
Regarding inclusion, it's always a
opportunity. And that's what I thank her for.
organization is organization of this
seminar. Today the United Nations does
80 years old. 80 years old. And according to
statements from United Nations officials
United, the United Nations has never been
in a situation as difficult as this one.
financing problems, problems of
credibility, problems even to
They are able to maintain it as an organization.
Who would have thought? Who would have thought that the Nations
United, as we have always become accustomed to
See it as an icon, as a representation.
of human rights? How do we
We've reached this point where we see that in the 80s
years of the United Nations today, if
Does it really call its existence into question? and the
its relevance. And that's why it's so...
Okay, we're organizing a seminar here.
about human rights. Uh, in this
perspective of resisting, resisting. Today
We're in the re, right? It was about resisting.
Yeah, I also wanted to before we start, huh...
along the same lines as Professor António
Teodoro yesterday when he opened the
seminar, make a reference to
Basically, that's what I wanted to say.
Today's discussion with you was about human rights.
and about inclusion. And speaking of
human rights and inclusion, speaking to you
a little bit, and that's where we're going.
to lead, to lead into the question of
inclusive education.
I only have half an hour, this is good news.
For you. Uh, I only have half an hour to
to speak. And Professor Margarida
Belcior has a guillotine that starts
The 25-minute mark cuts me off at the head.
Therefore, we are confident that this will
Run smoothly.
Perhaps a first reflection that I
I'd like to talk to you, because when
we talk about education and we talk about
inclusion, we often look to
At the micro level, we say: "What is it that
"Is there a problem in education?" And within the
education, we still say: "But what is it that
Do you have a hard time with inclusion?
We often have the idea that everything
It runs perfectly all over the world.
Except for inclusion. Inclusion is the great
problem. If we make a cloud of
words about what inclusion is
the word that evokes in people
It appears more that inclusion is a problem.
Oh, and everything's working fine at your school,
We have some difficulties here. And the
Inclusion, oh, that's a problem.
Inclusion is linked to the problem. THE
The biggest issue is the problem. AND
many times we look at the question
In education, we look at inclusion.
as if that were all, as if that were all.
located in that place. And I liked it,
perhaps, before actually talking about
inclusion, saying that there are other forces
more months, more macro influence
education and what influences education,
Education and inclusion. This is not where
I should carry it, but I should carry it.
Elsewhere. No, it isn't
OK.
And now, yes,
I'm going to talk to you about three aspects that I
I think they strongly influence the
development of education and
inclusion. The first one, first one is without
In doubt, the market, what could we do?
today, to call it something more direct, the
capitalism, the form of organization
economic and even social that we
We find them in our societies. And we
what we are experiencing now is a
perplexity regarding a set of
promises that were made to us and to a
set of realities with which we
we are facing each other. The market
He promised us access to consumer goods.
Everyone will have access to everything, to
consumer goods. Fantastic. It is prosperity
prosperity
at its best. He promised us a
globalization. I mean, it doesn't matter.
whether you live in Africa or whether you live
in Sweden. Everything will work out fine.
Globalization is what we will achieve.
Everyone should have access to prosperity.
And he also promised us meritocracy,
true meritocracy. What is it that
Would this be true meritocracy? Stay
rested, because the people who go
to have access to the places of tupo, to
places of power are, without a doubt, without
There is room for doubt, the people who are
more capable, the people who are more
independent people, those who take more
public service account. These are the
people that capitalism promised us
that were to arrive at the places of rag.
rag.
But despite having promised that, uh,
He took other things from us. He took us away.
many other things. The first is that the
Increased inequality. We don't have
There is no doubt that nowadays the systems
economic and social conditions in which we live
dramatically increased the a
inequality between populations, not only
among the populations within the country, but
between countries, between regions. THE
inequality today has become a
true, a true, a virus, a
A real virus that affects the whole world.
Obviously, the issue of poverty and the consumerism,
consumerism,
our economic systems do not
They managed to abolish poverty, by
On the contrary, eh, as I'm going to show you.
In the following graph, in Portugal, if
if there were no transfers
eh transfers at the level of
subsidies, at the level of all this, we
We would have more than 40% of people living in poverty.
in Portugal. we have 18% or 19% because
There are social transfers, because
otherwise we would have a number
immeasurably greater. And obviously
Yes, capitalism also brought us the
economic disaster. And I wanted to remind you
that not long ago the person in charge
by ecological policies in France
He said something terrible. I say that it is
absolutely terrible. He said: "I don't believe it."
that it is possible to reduce the impact of
climate change within
"economic systems that we have."
Amazing, isn't it? He said: "It's not
It is credible that we can reduce this.
impact within the logic of the system
economic situation that we have, which is very
Interesting, isn't it? Because we have
This idea is always benign, isn't it? What is it
What's needed is to separate the trash, and that's how it's done.
And this will go there. And we are forgetting.
of the big of the of the great photograph in which
It is said: "It will not be possible to take shortcuts
major climate changes, the fatal ones
climate change, without a change
important in our consumption system,
in our production system, in our
political system."
Well, here, we have an idea of how...
Poverty has evolved in Portugal. Us
We are, apparently, downloading a
just a little bit there, especially in poverty, in
intensity of poverty, but if you add them up
those two numbers, we're going to
exactly how to find that. Let's go
to encounter poverty that is rising by 40%. AND
Sad, isn't it? A system that tells us
He promised prosperity if we say
that in 10 Portuguese people, four are poor
and there's no way out of this
poverty without prevalent aid, a
constant and essential to what would be the state.
state.
From an ecological perspective, we also have...
This is the question, isn't it? That after us
if we cut down the entire forest,
We're having a fantastic opening. Us
we are going to inaugurate
a chestnut tree.
It's Chestnut Tree Day. The day of
chestnut. Of course, we before
We distributed 30 hectares of chestnut trees.
But it was necessary. It was, it really was
essential. We have it, but now let's go.
plant a chestnut tree and this
The chestnut tree will truly be the symbol.
of our ecological determination. That's it,
First place I wanted to call you
Pay attention. The market has influenced us.
particularly strong at the level of education.
But there is another issue that concerns us.
heavily influenced, the issue of
Respect for identity. And what is it that
What did identity promise us? Respect
through the identity of people, of groups,
He promised us that we had
knowledge, appreciation and preservation.
That identities were preserved, that
Identities were valued.
That was the promise. But what is ours?
reality? It's because it took away from us the
trust. We live in today's world.
many societies absolutely set up
insecurity in relation to others
groups, in relation to other people. To the
people who say: "Ah, but I don't go out
at night because I saw a car with two
"Black people inside the car." I said, "But
I wasn't confusing the color of the car.
with the people who were inside. No,
There is no fear. What happened? But it was...
Did I see it at midnight? I don't walk there.
Alone, right? So what's going on?
I live in a neighborhood where gypsies live. AND
You can see that, can't you? The next day
There was a person who told me: "No
In my neighborhood, there are families like that.
Gypsy women. "Do you see?" I said, "No."
I can't see anything.
I can't see anything. But if you show a
maybe I can see a photograph. But
this idea of trust, how does it work?
identity, the concept of identity in
Did it undermine trust so much? Identities
Balkanized. This is very interesting.
Yashamk's book, Identity Trap
He says that nowadays we are
in a very curious situation that is us,
In order to recognize identities, we have
Instead of Balkanizing them, we have to isolate them.
And from there he says: "This is a
"trap". Because from the moment
where we say: "Ah, you know, I am
"Very feminist." You see? The
feminists think that, you know I am
in favor of people with disabilities, the
people with disabilities, etc. From
from the moment we balkanized the
identities, we are immediately to
to create an additional difficulty for
there needs to be true inclusion, because
we can only assert ours
identities within a perspective
closed, Balkanized, almost as if
were it a confrontational perspective, a
warrior perspective in relation to
our identities. This is also a
current problem.
Another issue that was created for us
by this crisis of
Identity is belief in freedom and in
responsibility as values
unrestricted. That is to say, freedom and
the responsibility lies with everyone
people, regardless of what it is
a person's socioeconomic level,
regardless of age
person, right? From speaking to a boy of
6 years, so you didn't know it wasn't...
Is it possible to do that? Didn't you know? You don't
Did you know? Masamd, this is a lack of
the responsibility for this falls on a child of
5 years. It's a lack of... And we think, and
This is a neoliberal perspective.
Extremely dangerous, is what we think that the
People are free and responsible.
regardless of the situation in which
they are. Why? Because it's easier that way.
to hold them responsible and blame them
due to their own situation. Why is that
Are you poor? Why are you
Excluded? It's easy. It's because you don't
You make good use of your freedom, you fool.
Not you, so you're a free person, you
How come you don't use yours properly?
freedom? And since you don't use it well
Your freedom, you are irresponsible. AND,
therefore, the blame for the entire situation in
The place you are in is exclusively yours. And for
This means that identity has also become a
big trap.
And I liked, third aspect, a question
also at the macro level that it has
influenced education and inclusion is
this concept of democracy. And you
Just think about one thing, the idea seems
good. Imagine a society in which
It's the strongest who rule. The most
strong. The strongest, that is, the
those who are stronger, who can pack a punch
It will affect the other person's mind if they misbehave.
OK? And these people are few and far between.
They sent many. And the idea was very
good. The idea is this: if I say one
Man, one vote, if I give you the chance.
I will vote for everyone.
plotting against people, these powerful people, no.
and? I'm going to plot against them because I'm going to say,
since they are the majority,
I will plot against the powerful through one manote.
one manote. What an illusion we had.
What an illusion we had. What an illusion we had. We had the
What an illusion we had. We had the The illusion that if people could each
The illusion that if people could each If one of them were to vote, they would vote in favor.
If one of them were to vote, they would vote in favor. for their well-being, they would vote in favor of
for their well-being, they would vote in favor of for the well-being of everyone, they would fly to
for the well-being of everyone, they would fly to in favor of social harmony,
in favor of social harmony, through the end of exploitation, etc.
through the end of exploitation, etc. Therefore, our idea is, if we
Therefore, our idea is, if we if we could get the exploited to vote,
if we could get the exploited to vote, We would have a system that meets their needs.
We would have a system that meets their needs. Because they are the majority. And this
Because they are the majority. And this The promise of democracy, as you know, is not
The promise of democracy, as you know, is not It came true. One second promise
It came true. One second promise The essence of democracy was respect for
The essence of democracy was respect for minorities. It was to say that if we have
minorities. It was to say that if we have a democratic system, therefore minorities
a democratic system, therefore minorities They will be respected. Without prejudice to what
They will be respected. Without prejudice to what I'll tell you next, let me tell you.
I'll tell you next, let me tell you. that this is an absolutely
that this is an absolutely crucial nowadays, because we have the
crucial nowadays, because we have the The idea that democracy is power
The idea that democracy is power of the most voted. It's not just that we say if he
of the most voted. It's not just that we say if he He gets the most votes, what do we have?
He gets the most votes, what do we have? What to do? If democracy is only for
What to do? If democracy is only for defend those who received the most votes and the majority,
defend those who received the most votes and the majority, it becomes an autocracy just like any other
it becomes an autocracy just like any other other. It becomes an autocracy equal to
other. It becomes an autocracy equal to any other. The great, the great ethos,
any other. The great, the great ethos, the great, the great essence of
the great, the great essence of Democracy is about defending minorities. It's us
Democracy is about defending minorities. It's us we can within a given
we can within a given The system knows that there are people,
The system knows that there are people, Obviously, they have legitimacy.
Obviously, they have legitimacy. to get organized and to get things done,
to get organized and to get things done, but that this action by these people is
but that this action by these people is deeply connected to the protection of
deeply connected to the protection of minorities. If democracy does not defend
minorities. If democracy does not defend minorities are equal to everyone else.
minorities are equal to everyone else. autocracy, any dictatorship that we
autocracy, any dictatorship that we We would abhor it.
We would abhor it. And obviously, democracy
And obviously, democracy He promised us the separation of powers.
He promised us the separation of powers. That is, as they say, not to put
That is, as they say, not to put all the eggs in the same basket And the
all the eggs in the same basket And the that we are witnessing, passing by
that we are witnessing, passing by Now, what has been taken from us is...
Now, what has been taken from us is... Respect for minorities has not been...
Respect for minorities has not been... obvious. in many countries the issue of
obvious. in many countries the issue of a person having one more vote than their own
a person having one more vote than their own opponents arrive to publish and to
opponents arrive to publish and to to enforce unjust laws and forms,
to enforce unjust laws and forms, Obviously, democratic oppression. THE
Obviously, democratic oppression. THE oppression was as if the person had
oppression was as if the person had one one a stick that was called democracy
one one a stick that was called democracy a stick. And he hits the other one on the head with the stick.
a stick. And he hits the other one on the head with the stick. person and says: "Here you go
person and says: "Here you go democratic." Do you see? You are
democratic." Do you see? You are I'll take it, but it's in the name of democracy. In
I'll take it, but it's in the name of democracy. In The name of democracy. respect for
The name of democracy. respect for minorities, respect for the separation of
minorities, respect for the separation of powers. When we meet today in
powers. When we meet today in countries, such as Hungary, for example,
countries, such as Hungary, for example, when we pass it is in relation to
when we pass it is in relation to Brazil, when we think about aspirations
Brazil, when we think about aspirations that have other groups that are not
that have other groups that are not majoritarians to become majoritarians, the
majoritarians to become majoritarians, the I'll say any day now I'm going to cancel.
I'll say any day now I'm going to cancel. these judges who think they are
these judges who think they are independent. One of these days I'll go
independent. One of these days I'll go to annul the parliament. Any day now I
to annul the parliament. Any day now I I will be able to do anything that
I will be able to do anything that give me absolute power over
give me absolute power over this. And obviously, one is missing.
this. And obviously, one is missing. One flaw in democracy is that we
One flaw in democracy is that we we believed that it was inviolable, that
we believed that it was inviolable, that there was no way to go back in
there was no way to go back in democracy. And nowadays we are having
democracy. And nowadays we are having It's everyday lessons and several times over.
It's everyday lessons and several times over. day lessons to say attention, it's not quite
day lessons to say attention, it's not quite like this.
like this. Therefore, when I speak to you of these three
Therefore, when I speak to you of these three questions, I'm telling you that there are three
questions, I'm telling you that there are three major issues that influence the
major issues that influence the education and how it influences inclusion.
education and how it influences inclusion. Let's not just think that inclusion and
Let's not just think that inclusion and The schools here are closed, but they are
The schools here are closed, but they are Influenced by this big one, right? what
Influenced by this big one, right? what It has to do with what the market is, which has
It has to do with what the market is, which has It has to do with what identity is and it has to do with
It has to do with what identity is and it has to do with Let's see what the idea of democracy is all about.
Let's see what the idea of democracy is all about. It is in this context that human rights
It is in this context that human rights They develop. Human rights
They develop. Human rights They develop within this scenario and
They develop within this scenario and human rights, even though we think
human rights, even though we think which is a safe haven, they continue to have
which is a safe haven, they continue to have immense, immense, immense attacks,
immense, immense, immense attacks, Even at a conceptual level, right? Us
Even at a conceptual level, right? Us We could think that human rights
We could think that human rights It's more or less like a sacred book.
It's more or less like a sacred book. That no one attacks, isn't that right? You
That no one attacks, isn't that right? You human rights have been attacked by
human rights have been attacked by not being truly universal. THE
not being truly universal. THE People say: "Ah, that's a big
People say: "Ah, that's a big "Conversation." Human rights are not...
"Conversation." Human rights are not... They are not universal. If it really
They are not universal. If it really If they were human rights, they were
If they were human rights, they were Used all over the world. And we
Used all over the world. And we We are confusing here what rights are.
We are confusing here what rights are. humans with what the application of
humans with what the application of human rights. It's something else entirely. THE
human rights. It's something else entirely. THE The second question is that it is said: "But the
The second question is that it is said: "But the Human rights are a Western thing.
Human rights are a Western thing. "And Christian." The next day, I found it funny.
"And Christian." The next day, I found it funny. because in some countries it is said: "But
because in some countries it is said: "But What is this? something to consider that
What is this? something to consider that A man and a woman are equal. What
A man and a woman are equal. What and that? No, they're not. With all the
and that? No, they're not. With all the respect, that always has a part of
respect, that always has a part of Music, from the violin part, right? He has,
Music, from the violin part, right? He has, with all due respect, with all due respect
with all due respect, with all due respect With all due respect, they are fantastic, but
With all due respect, they are fantastic, but They're not, you see? Until
They're not, you see? Until biologically, even biologically not
biologically, even biologically not They are, but it's not the same thing. even if
They are, but it's not the same thing. even if to think about our history and our
to think about our history and our tradition. And we keep going like this,
tradition. And we keep going like this, jumping from one thing to another
jumping from one thing to another saying that it's only Westerners and
saying that it's only Westerners and It's Christians who have this obsession with
It's Christians who have this obsession with human rights. This has been a
human rights. This has been a systematic attack on human rights
systematic attack on human rights also. And there's also a very noticeable attack.
also. And there's also a very noticeable attack. It's interesting that it says: "The rights
It's interesting that it says: "The rights Humans, ah, [laughs] that's a good one.
Humans, ah, [laughs] that's a good one. Ideally, do you know who's interested?
Ideally, do you know who's interested? For human rights? They are the bandits.
For human rights? They are the bandits. The bandits are the people who...
The bandits are the people who... They are more interested in human rights.
They are more interested in human rights. When a person does one, they go right away, the
When a person does one, they go right away, the my human rights right to a
my human rights right to a phone call to my lawyer, no
phone call to my lawyer, no the law. The person suddenly remembers.
the law. The person suddenly remembers. of human rights. This is also a
of human rights. This is also a Slander regarding human rights. It is a
Slander regarding human rights. It is a slander regarding human rights,
slander regarding human rights, saying that human rights is
saying that human rights is conversation about forgiving people
conversation about forgiving people offenders, people who are not
offenders, people who are not using language that you
using language that you They know them, but they're not good people. there is
They know them, but they're not good people. there is good people and people who are too bad or
good people and people who are too bad or less and the evil people and and the
less and the evil people and and the human rights would only serve to
human rights would only serve to People who are evil people.
People who are evil people. However, we have seen that after
However, we have seen that after 77 years old, human rights
77 years old, human rights continue to constitute a
continue to constitute a important hope. They gave instructions.
important hope. They gave instructions. demands of peoples all over
demands of peoples all over world. That is, these claims
world. That is, these claims They end up relying on each other, they end up having
They end up relying on each other, they end up having how tutors of the ideas of rights
how tutors of the ideas of rights humans. They inspired advances in areas
humans. They inspired advances in areas political and social. in people with
political and social. in people with disability, for example, by
disability, for example, by Convention on the Rights of Persons
Convention on the Rights of Persons with a disability from 2007
with a disability from 2007 It draws directly from the Universal Declaration.
It draws directly from the Universal Declaration. of Human Rights. The opposition
of Human Rights. The opposition politics, feminism, LGBT rights
politics, feminism, LGBT rights plus immigrant populations, minorities
plus immigrant populations, minorities ethically, all these populations ended up
ethically, all these populations ended up by benefiting from this fundamental idea,
by benefiting from this fundamental idea, this tutorial idea of the systems of
this tutorial idea of the systems of human rights. And obviously the
human rights. And obviously the rights ended up asserting themselves as
rights ended up asserting themselves as diffuse and unavailable. Uh, when we
diffuse and unavailable. Uh, when we We say that human rights are
We say that human rights are By diffuse, we mean that the rights
By diffuse, we mean that the rights Humans are spread throughout the
Humans are spread throughout the people. We all have human rights.
people. We all have human rights. There are no people who have more, nor less.
There are no people who have more, nor less. Human rights don't deserve each other.
Human rights don't deserve each other. Contrary to what, for example, the
Contrary to what, for example, the The far right and neoliberalism, the
The far right and neoliberalism, the People, yes, there are people, the rights
People, yes, there are people, the rights Humans are great, but it's necessary
Humans are great, but it's necessary to deserve them. It's almost as if it were a
to deserve them. It's almost as if it were a race when you get there at the end. I
race when you get there at the end. I I end up running and saying: "Me, after all, me
I end up running and saying: "Me, after all, me "I deserved human rights." Did I deserve them?
"I deserved human rights." Did I deserve them? Oh, that's great. I ran a lot, but I deserved it.
Oh, that's great. I ran a lot, but I deserved it. human rights. Human rights
human rights. Human rights They are not a merit because they are
They are not a merit because they are diffuse, they are spread throughout the
diffuse, they are spread throughout the people and these are rights that are
people and these are rights that are unavailable in the sense that I don't
unavailable in the sense that I don't I can dispose of the human rights of
I can dispose of the human rights of Others might say: "Look, there you go, today."
Others might say: "Look, there you go, today." You lose that right, but look, it's just that...
You lose that right, but look, it's just that... this week. Then on to
this week. Then on to We'll gather some capsules this week and... what if...
We'll gather some capsules this week and... what if... Gather the 10 capsules for the week.
Gather the 10 capsules for the week. you regain that human right. I am not
you regain that human right. I am not I can dispose of the human rights of
I can dispose of the human rights of others. And more interestingly, I don't
others. And more interestingly, I don't I can exercise my human rights.
I can exercise my human rights. I cannot offer it. I can't tell you
I cannot offer it. I can't tell you My boss, I am now...
My boss, I am now... Retired? No, I don't say that anymore.
Retired? No, I don't say that anymore. But I couldn't tell my boss,
But I couldn't tell my boss, Look, you know, I even work for free.
Look, you know, I even work for free. he knows? I don't need you to pay me. No
he knows? I don't need you to pay me. No necessary. Even for me, it's an insult.
necessary. Even for me, it's an insult. Pay me. I work for free. I am
Pay me. I work for free. I am that. But you are not entitled to
that. But you are not entitled to Receive the salary? I have it, but I'm giving it up.
Receive the salary? I have it, but I'm giving it up. from him. I cannot give up mine.
from him. I cannot give up mine. human rights, and even less so to do with
human rights, and even less so to do with that other people give up theirs
that other people give up theirs human rights.
human rights. and human rights and education.
and human rights and education. First of all, I wanted to emphasize again
First of all, I wanted to emphasize again that education is permeable to everything
that education is permeable to everything this complexity that we talked about until
this complexity that we talked about until Now, the complexity of capitalism, the
Now, the complexity of capitalism, the capacity for identity, the capacity
capacity for identity, the capacity This gives us the complexity of what democracy is.
This gives us the complexity of what democracy is. and the inherent complexity of this debate
and the inherent complexity of this debate that exists within human rights. Eh, eh,
that exists within human rights. Eh, eh, and education has been influenced by
and education has been influenced by This whole situation. But let's see that
This whole situation. But let's see that educational changes were influenced
educational changes were influenced through these debates. That is, how is it that
through these debates. That is, how is it that these debates have reached education and how
these debates have reached education and how That's what we're looking at today. In
That's what we're looking at today. In first of all, this perspective of
first of all, this perspective of The capitalist market, how does it work?
The capitalist market, how does it work? It influenced education and how we...
It influenced education and how we... Are we thinking about this today? We are
Are we thinking about this today? We are thinking the opposite, contrary to
thinking the opposite, contrary to what would the market tell us, that only a few are
what would the market tell us, that only a few are that they deserve, we could also think only
that they deserve, we could also think only that some deserve human rights,
that some deserve human rights, There are also some who deserve it.
There are also some who deserve it. education. So, it's not, it's not difficult.
education. So, it's not, it's not difficult. You have to do the rule of three, right? If some
You have to do the rule of three, right? If some They deserve human rights, therefore they also
They deserve human rights, therefore they also There are some who deserve an education. And the
There are some who deserve an education. And the what does UNESCO tell us in the declaration of
what does UNESCO tell us in the declaration of Inion? It says: "All students matter and
Inion? It says: "All students matter and They matter the same. They matter the same.
They matter the same. They matter the same. Even those who misbehave,
Even those who misbehave, even those ill-mannered ones who called,
even those ill-mannered ones who called, They insulted the teacher's mother.
They insulted the teacher's mother. These people deserve the same as the others.
These people deserve the same as the others. Yes, they deserve the same as everyone else.
Yes, they deserve the same as everyone else. Because once again, education is not a
Because once again, education is not a It's not a matter of merit.
It's not a matter of merit. that it is only a possibility of
that it is only a possibility of I have anything for which I
I have anything for which I I contributed. Second, the investment in
I contributed. Second, the investment in Education is recognized as fundamental.
Education is recognized as fundamental. in terms of public policy. He wants
in terms of public policy. He wants That is to say, we cannot say it like this: "Yes, the
That is to say, we cannot say it like this: "Yes, the Investment in education is only for
Investment in education is only for some countries, only for certain areas,
some countries, only for certain areas, no. Investing in education as a whole is
no. Investing in education as a whole is recognized, which is a question of whether
recognized, which is a question of whether They think very much against this perspective.
They think very much against this perspective. of the market. If we were in a
of the market. If we were in a From a strictly market perspective, the
From a strictly market perspective, the What we would say is that it is necessary
What we would say is that it is necessary fund only the sectors that are
fund only the sectors that are strategic, only the students who have the
strategic, only the students who have the future, only entrepreneurship, only the
future, only entrepreneurship, only the digital technologies, everything that
digital technologies, everything that It sells well. So that's what was needed.
It sells well. So that's what was needed. finance. We know today that
finance. We know today that no,
no, but I've only just started [laughs]
but I've only just started [laughs] It's 5 minutes and still on the subject of the market.
It's 5 minutes and still on the subject of the market. Creating scholarships of excellence is not enough. THE
Creating scholarships of excellence is not enough. THE True excellence is the way in which...
True excellence is the way in which... The most vulnerable students are given treatment.
The most vulnerable students are given treatment. I would like to, since I have 5 minutes,
I would like to, since I have 5 minutes, that this thing might stay perhaps okay
that this thing might stay perhaps okay Highlighted, isn't it?
Highlighted, isn't it? excellence. We have to have one
excellence. We have to have one a different perspective on what is
a different perspective on what is excellence. Excellence for a long time
excellence. Excellence for a long time time was the excellence of some in
time was the excellence of some in some situations, in some places. AND
some situations, in some places. AND nowadays we think that
nowadays we think that Excellence is how students
Excellence is how students Vulnerable people are being treated. Any country
Vulnerable people are being treated. Any country of the world, even the poorest countries,
of the world, even the poorest countries, are able to create pockets of
are able to create pockets of excellence. Everyone is capable of
excellence. Everyone is capable of do that. If you come to the country more
do that. If you come to the country more Poor world, you'll see schools in
Poor world, you'll see schools in that the boys are all in uniform
that the boys are all in uniform with the King's College curriculum and
with the King's College curriculum and All fantastic.
All fantastic. That's not the question; the question is where are they?
That's not the question; the question is where are they? the others in this country, in these other countries
the others in this country, in these other countries Poor? Where are the others? And the
Poor? Where are the others? And the The first question is this: how do we
The first question is this: how do we Do we treat the most vulnerable students? If
Do we treat the most vulnerable students? If If you have time, read a book that...
If you have time, read a book that... I loved reading it, which is about the tyranny of merit.
I loved reading it, which is about the tyranny of merit. by Michael Sandle. Hey, look, here it is
by Michael Sandle. Hey, look, here it is Meritocracy. Look, are you seeing the
Meritocracy. Look, are you seeing the Meritocracy?
Meritocracy? The famous meritocracy. Can you see?
The famous meritocracy. Can you see? that man who is over there
that man who is over there berm? He's saying: "Wow, that's great!"
berm? He's saying: "Wow, that's great!" cyclist! Which one are you talking about?
cyclist! Which one are you talking about? Which cyclist is he talking about?
Which cyclist is he talking about? What a great cyclist! Bravo! Excellent. He
What a great cyclist! Bravo! Excellent. He He's talking about the cyclist who carries the
He's talking about the cyclist who carries the Bananas or the other one?
Bananas or the other one? Who is the great cyclist here?
Who is the great cyclist here? On the merits? Who is the great cyclist?
Identity also gave rise to changes. important in education and inclusion.
important in education and inclusion. First and foremost, it is this recognition
First and foremost, it is this recognition Diversity is not something exclusive to a few. I
Diversity is not something exclusive to a few. I I often tell this story that there is
I often tell this story that there is many years the Globenquiana Foundation
many years the Globenquiana Foundation edited a book called The Child
edited a book called The Child different. It was a book that was...
different. It was a book that was... very important at the time. The child
very important at the time. The child different. Who was the different child?
different. Who was the different child? They were the boys with difficulties and with
They were the boys with difficulties and with deficiency. Es é que era os
deficiency. Es é que era os different, because the others weren't.
different, because the others weren't. different, they didn't have a certificate of being
different, they didn't have a certificate of being different. Nowadays, we know that
different. Nowadays, we know that This is not true. We know that
This is not true. We know that Diversity is inherent to human beings and is
Diversity is inherent to human beings and is positive. That would be a whole other conversation.
positive. That would be a whole other conversation. the acceptance of all diversity in
the acceptance of all diversity in school, the question, that difference that
school, the question, that difference that There is a difference between integration and inclusion.
There is a difference between integration and inclusion. fundamental. It still is today.
fundamental. It still is today. It's important that we talk about this. How is that
It's important that we talk about this. How is that How did we get confused?
How did we get confused? Systematically, what does it mean to be integrated?
Systematically, what does it mean to be integrated? what to include. Integrated into
what to include. Integrated into In that sense, I even... uh... uh, the integrated one...
In that sense, I even... uh... uh, the integrated one... I think it even makes a noise. I think if
I think it even makes a noise. I think if we do part of the sound design
we do part of the sound design It works better. Here we have the school and the
It works better. Here we have the school and the The person who is going to integrate comes here.
The person who is going to integrate comes here. That's how it is, and that's how it's done.
That's how it is, and that's how it's done. He was the one who integrated, I don't know if
He was the one who integrated, I don't know if Did you notice when it made this noise here?
Did you notice when it made this noise here? He was the one who integrated.
That's great. The school hasn't changed at all. THE The person, when they integrated, even did...
The person, when they integrated, even did... snapping sound.
snapping sound. This is the perspective of integration. In
This is the perspective of integration. In From an inclusion perspective, we also
From an inclusion perspective, we also We would like it to make noise, but no.
We would like it to make noise, but no. It makes such a fantastic noise.
It makes such a fantastic noise. like this one. Why? Because we want to
like this one. Why? Because we want to not only that the person moves,
not only that the person moves, but also the structure that receives it.
but also the structure that receives it. move. And when these two structures
move. And when these two structures They are moving, it's harder to find.
They are moving, it's harder to find. this fitting of
this fitting of less. And that's why it's more difficult to
less. And that's why it's more difficult to inclusion rather than integration. Because in
inclusion rather than integration. Because in integration, obviously, we were at
integration, obviously, we were at waiting to find out if the person is capable or
waiting to find out if the person is capable or He is not capable. Look, you did it!
He is not capable. Look, you did it! I can't integrate that, poor thing. So it is.
I can't integrate that, poor thing. So it is. Look, you have to go back, right?
Look, you have to go back, right? Yes, it happens. Don't do it
Yes, it happens. Don't do it worse
worse the school's effort to respect everyone
the school's effort to respect everyone the starting points, etc. Uh, about the,
the starting points, etc. Uh, about the, Never mind, it would end here, maybe.
Never mind, it would end here, maybe. It would only end after the last one.
It would only end after the last one. slide. Well, promoting education...
slide. Well, promoting education... of democracy from the perspective of
of democracy from the perspective of valuing the students' voice, the voice of
valuing the students' voice, the voice of students. of the National Council
students. of the National Council Education, here we have our
Education, here we have our president, Professor Domingues
president, Professor Domingues Fernandes edited several recommendations.
Fernandes edited several recommendations. I'm going to tell you about the students' voices.
I'm going to tell you about the students' voices. These are very good recommendations.
These are very good recommendations. intentional, but stemming from
intentional, but stemming from very difficult realities and sometimes
very difficult realities and sometimes very disappointing. That means that we
very disappointing. That means that we We listen to the students a lot, but we listen...
We listen to the students a lot, but we listen... They say very little. That is,
They say very little. That is, we take very little forward with what
we take very little forward with what They say. That is, even in education.
They say. That is, even in education. superior, which we will discuss next,
superior, which we will discuss next, In higher education, we see that we
In higher education, we see that we We listen to the students, but it's not always the case.
We listen to the students, but it's not always the case. we almost never truly take into account
we almost never truly take into account Tell them what they say. This is a
Tell them what they say. This is a The question of democracy in relation to education.
The question of democracy in relation to education. How can we promote a
How can we promote a true democracy within
true democracy within education? This alone would be a seminar. I
education? This alone would be a seminar. I I'm really running out of time. Ah, I'll go.
I'm really running out of time. Ah, I'll go. I read you this phrase by Maria Montessori
I read you this phrase by Maria Montessori It also says: "Everyone talks
It also says: "Everyone talks about peace.
about peace. But no one teaches peace. It's funny, it is
But no one teaches peace. It's funny, it is as if peace were a content that we
as if peace were a content that we We learn in a transcendent way.
We learn in a transcendent way. and metaphysics.
and metaphysics. No one teaches peace in this world. Yeah, us
No one teaches peace in this world. Yeah, us We are educated for competition and...
We are educated for competition and... Competition is the principle of all...
Competition is the principle of all... wars. Competition is the principle of
wars. Competition is the principle of all wars.
all wars. When we educate ourselves for the
When we educate ourselves for the cooperation and offering to others
cooperation and offering to others solidarity, so that's going to be the day
solidarity, so that's going to be the day in what are we educating ourselves for?
in what are we educating ourselves for? peace.
peace. Well, that makes five.
Well, that makes five. Levers, but how will there be a fifth?
Levers, but how will there be a fifth? seminar on human rights, I
seminar on human rights, I I will present the second part of my
I will present the second part of my conference next, on the fifth
conference next, on the fifth seminar. Eh,
And that's it, it would end with just that, maybe. telling you again that inclusion is the
telling you again that inclusion is the That's a problem, isn't it? Ah, inclusion is a
That's a problem, isn't it? Ah, inclusion is a It's a problem, but I wanted to tell you, we heard.
It's a problem, but I wanted to tell you, we heard. It is often said that inclusion is a
It is often said that inclusion is a problem.
problem. And how can we promote the
And how can we promote the equity, diversity and democracy,
equity, diversity and democracy, those three things that we talked about in
those three things that we talked about in schools, without being through values and
schools, without being through values and inclusive practices. I think we
inclusive practices. I think we we are systematically confusing the
we are systematically confusing the disease with the remedy. Inclusion and
disease with the remedy. Inclusion and Education is the best remedy that
Education is the best remedy that we know how to fight against the
we know how to fight against the true diseases, which are the
true diseases, which are the inequality, lack of identity and
inequality, lack of identity and the system that we have.
the system that we have. Finally, I'd like to end with just one.
Finally, I'd like to end with just one. This image is to tell you that we are...
This image is to tell you that we are... always very, very confronted with the
always very, very confronted with the power that the sectors have today
power that the sectors have today The far right and neoliberal sectors
The far right and neoliberal sectors to attack the values that we have always
to attack the values that we have always we considered those to be the most
we considered those to be the most important aspects of our lives. Oh, Saint
important aspects of our lives. Oh, Saint Augustine. They once asked the Saint
Augustine. They once asked the Saint Augustine, where was virtue?
Augustine, where was virtue? And Saint Augustine was left thinking and
And Saint Augustine was left thinking and The person who asked him said, "But it is
The person who asked him said, "But it is Obviously, I already know what you're asking me.
Obviously, I already know what you're asking me. will respond. Virtue lies in the middle.
will respond. Virtue lies in the middle. it is not? Virtue lies in the middle, it lies in
it is not? Virtue lies in the middle, it lies in virtue. Virtue lies in the middle. And the
virtue. Virtue lies in the middle. And the Saint Augustine thought and thought and said:
Saint Augustine thought and thought and said: "No, virtue is not in the middle."
"No, virtue is not in the middle." Virtue lies at the extreme that opposes it.
Virtue lies at the extreme that opposes it. sin."
sin." Interesting, isn't it? Why do we
Interesting, isn't it? Why do we We have this idea that virtue has to
We have this idea that virtue has to being in the middle when many times
being in the middle when many times we value perspectives so much that
we value perspectives so much that They are xenophobic, they are racist, they are
They are xenophobic, they are racist, they are the perspectives that most undermine
the perspectives that most undermine education and we value it as much as
education and we value it as much as the values that we have held for so many years
the values that we have held for so many years we develop in our societies.
we develop in our societies. Virtue does not lie in the middle. virtue lies
Virtue does not lie in the middle. virtue lies on the side that opposes all of these
on the side that opposes all of these perspectives that undermine, that poison the
perspectives that undermine, that poison the our education. When we see the size
our education. When we see the size of the wave, sometimes we get too
of the wave, sometimes we get too discouraged. We say: "It's true, the
discouraged. We say: "It's true, the People have to fight, but the wave is too much.
People have to fight, but the wave is too much. "Big". When the wave is big.
"Big". When the wave is big. Otherwise, bring a ladder.
Otherwise, bring a ladder. Good afternoon.
Good afternoon. [applause]
Thank you, Professor David Rodrigues. Despite being late, no
Despite being late, no I don't know if anyone has any questions for
I don't know if anyone has any questions for To do something, it has to be brief: a question or
To do something, it has to be brief: a question or a comment
a comment whatever you want to do to Professor David
whatever you want to do to Professor David Rodrigues.
Rodrigues. Radio,
Radio, de reg da regim, enquanto estamos aqui,
de reg da regim, enquanto estamos aqui, Could you please add the last slide?
Could you please add the last slide? Thanks.
There is a question. I had arranged with three people to ask questions.
three people to ask questions. [laughter]
[laughter] They are failing to keep their word.
They are failing to keep their word. Hey, Felisberto is my name, I'm a student.
Hey, Felisberto is my name, I'm a student. PhD in Education. My
PhD in Education. My The question is this, Professor David.
The question is this, Professor David. Rodrigues, according to his statement and
Rodrigues, according to his statement and starting from the premises and the
starting from the premises and the market, identities and
market, identities and of democracy,
of democracy, of democracy,
of democracy, hh and essentially based on the
hh and essentially based on the market,
market, given the logic of capitalism and
given the logic of capitalism and competition and pseudo-meritocracy,
competition and pseudo-meritocracy, as Michael Sandel rightly says,
as Michael Sandel rightly says, thinks capitalism
thinks capitalism a base
a base ideological, philosophical, if you will,
ideological, philosophical, if you will, to actually establish a
to actually establish a inclusive education
inclusive education or
or What alternatives do you suggest?
What alternatives do you suggest? Sure, sure,
Sure, sure, because I understand that in this logic of
because I understand that in this logic of competition
competition We're not going there.
We're not going there. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much. Anyone else? Then Professor David
Anyone else? Then Professor David He answered them all. Does anyone else have
He answered them all. Does anyone else have Any questions? I think like
Any questions? I think like We're running out of time, perhaps.
We're running out of time, perhaps. We'd go with this one. Look, and yours
We'd go with this one. Look, and yours The question is excellent and I think that
The question is excellent and I think that We could do a seminar on this.
We could do a seminar on this. Who is getting ready to meet a
Who is getting ready to meet a solution? It is not? The truth is, let's
solution? It is not? The truth is, let's Look, we've been here for a long time.
Look, we've been here for a long time. aware of the dangers of capitalism,
aware of the dangers of capitalism, it is not? Not only through the socialists
it is not? Not only through the socialists Utopians, then the so-called socialists,
Utopians, then the so-called socialists, Scientific socialism, right? searched
Scientific socialism, right? searched create an alternative route. And in this
create an alternative route. And in this At that moment we thought that our
At that moment we thought that our a great alternative to fight against
a great alternative to fight against this capitalism that creates all these
this capitalism that creates all these The issues were creation and the
The issues were creation and the development of the welfare state. Think
development of the welfare state. Think in a social state and is above all a
in a social state and is above all a an issue that has developed significantly in
an issue that has developed significantly in Europe, it is not about creating structures
Europe, it is not about creating structures strong structures that
strong structures that In a way, they boycotted this logic.
In a way, they boycotted this logic. capitalist, giving, uh, giving perspectives
capitalist, giving, uh, giving perspectives equity, perspectives on democracy
equity, perspectives on democracy for everyone, etc. Right now,
for everyone, etc. Right now, Honestly, we're a little bit...
Honestly, we're a little bit... perplexed about this, because the
perplexed about this, because the The far right, neoliberalism, has
The far right, neoliberalism, has attacked exactly what we
attacked exactly what we We considered it to be our best.
We considered it to be our best. The shot is to attack capitalism and the
The shot is to attack capitalism and the capitalism and capitalism itself
capitalism and capitalism itself form of creating inequality, etc.
form of creating inequality, etc. Therefore, the best answer I can give you
Therefore, the best answer I can give you I can give, even if it's not a
I can give, even if it's not a enthusiastic response from tomorrows that
enthusiastic response from tomorrows that they sing,
they sing, even though it's not an answer
even though it's not an answer enthusiastic, that is to say, we have to
enthusiastic, that is to say, we have to to continue fighting, we have to continue to
to continue fighting, we have to continue to to fight, to resist, and to say that we
to fight, to resist, and to say that we we can, without a doubt, and mitigate it by
we can, without a doubt, and mitigate it by minus the effects of the market through
minus the effects of the market through creation of large education systems,
creation of large education systems, of good health systems, of good
of good health systems, of good systems that have to do with
systems that have to do with democracy.
democracy. issues related to protection
issues related to protection from the citizens' perspective on this. I think
from the citizens' perspective on this. I think which at this moment is the best hope
which at this moment is the best hope that we have. It is a hope that,
that we have. It is a hope that, Interestingly, and it is a greater hope
Interestingly, and it is a greater hope difficult in the sense that the extreme
difficult in the sense that the extreme The intelligent right realized that was it.
The intelligent right realized that was it. that I really had to act. That is, it was
that I really had to act. That is, it was in these foundations of the welfare state that
in these foundations of the welfare state that It was necessary to attack. And that's why we
It was necessary to attack. And that's why we we realize that every time we
we realize that every time we we are trying to raise something that
we are trying to raise something that boycott is this capitalist logic of
boycott is this capitalist logic of better and of inequality, we
better and of inequality, we We found that this is exactly where...
We found that this is exactly where... attacks. And finally, that's where
attacks. And finally, that's where We have to attack. attack in
We have to attack. attack in The perspective of promoting education is
The perspective of promoting education is that she be a citizen, an education that is
that she be a citizen, an education that is supportive, conscious,
supportive, conscious, of knowledge and not simply a
of knowledge and not simply a Follow-up education and the Quiz
Follow-up education and the Quiz Masters Voice, what the boss says. OK.
Masters Voice, what the boss says. OK. Thanks.
Thanks. [applause]
We now have another round table discussion about Inclusive education, right?
Good morning to everyone. They are present here.
They are present here. My name is Luzia Lima Rodrigues.
My name is Luzia Lima Rodrigues. I am here at Lusófona University,
I am here at Lusófona University, director of the master's program in
director of the master's program in OK, in special education and
OK, in special education and postgraduate studies in special education and
postgraduate studies in special education and inclusive education. And it falls to me here then.
inclusive education. And it falls to me here then. the fabulous role,
the fabulous role, to be accompanied by these people so
to be accompanied by these people so interesting things that I love to learn and
interesting things that I love to learn and to be questioned by them. We're going to...
to be questioned by them. We're going to... then listen to Professor Domingos
then listen to Professor Domingos Fernandes on curriculum, pedagogy and
Fernandes on curriculum, pedagogy and evaluation, perspectives for the
evaluation, perspectives for the diversity and inclusion, which I
diversity and inclusion, which I I'll now talk about yours.
I'll now talk about yours. No, it's not the last one. I'm just starting out, I
No, it's not the last one. I'm just starting out, I Okay, I'm reversing things.
Okay, I'm reversing things. starting from the opposite side.
starting from the opposite side. I always like to do something.
I always like to do something. different. So, Professor Domingos,
different. So, Professor Domingos, I'll introduce them to the three of them first and
I'll introduce them to the three of them first and Then we'll pass the word to the three of them, okay?
Then we'll pass the word to the three of them, okay? good? Professor Domingos, uh, he is
good? Professor Domingos, uh, he is president of the National Council of
president of the National Council of Education, elected by the Assembly of
Education, elected by the Assembly of Republic since July 9, 2022. It is
Republic since July 9, 2022. It is retired full professor at the School
retired full professor at the School Superior of the School of Sociology and
Superior of the School of Sociology and ISQITEC's Public Policies, which is the
ISQITEC's Public Policies, which is the our University Institute of Lisbon,
our University Institute of Lisbon, and researcher at the Research Center
and researcher at the Research Center and Sociology Studies.
and Sociology Studies. coordinated programs over the course of 17 years.
coordinated programs over the course of 17 years. master's and doctoral degrees in
master's and doctoral degrees in specialization in educational assessment
specialization in educational assessment at the University of Lisbon. AND
at the University of Lisbon. AND principal investigator of projects of
principal investigator of projects of investigation and evaluation
investigation and evaluation national and international and is the sole author
national and international and is the sole author out of 200 publications and only 300
out of 200 publications and only 300 national and international communications
national and international communications I was the only one who added it, because when
I was the only one who added it, because when When we see a resume like that, we're like...
When we see a resume like that, we're like... Always impressed.
Always impressed. And then I'll introduce Professor Lília.
And then I'll introduce Professor Lília. Pires, Lília Guardenteiro Pires, who
Pires, Lília Guardenteiro Pires, who It's here to my right too, it is
It's here to my right too, it is licensed in Service by the Institute of
licensed in Service by the Institute of Social Service in Lisbon and Master's degree in
Social Service in Lisbon and Master's degree in special education by the Faculty of
special education by the Faculty of Human Motor Skills Department of the University of
Human Motor Skills Department of the University of Lisbon. Uh, it performs the functions of
Lisbon. Uh, it performs the functions of coordinator of the guidance center
coordinator of the guidance center career and student support
career and student support Faculty of Arts of the University of
Faculty of Arts of the University of Lisbon. is a founding member of the group of
Lisbon. is a founding member of the group of work to support the student with
work to support the student with deficiency in higher education, having
deficiency in higher education, having done as part of the coordination during
done as part of the coordination during For several years, from 2021 to 2023, he was part of the
For several years, from 2021 to 2023, he was part of the European project Unite University Network
European project Unite University Network for Innovation Technology and
for Innovation Technology and Engineering, uh, from 2022 to January of
Engineering, uh, from 2022 to January of 2025, eh, Inclusion Diversity
Professor Lia, we're staying here too, eh? I'm pleased to welcome you. Professor Lília
I'm pleased to welcome you. Professor Lília So you're going to talk about higher education then.
So you're going to talk about higher education then. inclusive, a process of reflections from 37
inclusive, a process of reflections from 37 years of practice. It doesn't seem like anything, because
years of practice. It doesn't seem like anything, because no?
no? It doesn't look like anything. Professor David
It doesn't look like anything. Professor David Rodrigues, who has already been introduced by
Rodrigues, who has already been introduced by Professor Margarida. I'll go then, uh
Professor Margarida. I'll go then, uh so that you don't end up without presenting
so that you don't end up without presenting Nothing, I'll say a few things that...
Nothing, I'll say a few things that... They were said. Moreover, his conference
They were said. Moreover, his conference now, his participation in this
now, his participation in this A round table is also for eh eh
A round table is also for eh eh to explain things that weren't
to explain things that weren't explained at the conference. Therefore,
explained at the conference. Therefore, Now you have the chance to say others.
Now you have the chance to say others. things. Professor David Rodrigues,
things. Professor David Rodrigues, day before yesterday
day before yesterday he received the communication that by
he received the communication that by Faculty of Human Movement
Faculty of Human Movement 20 notable people who were considered
20 notable people who were considered by the University of Lisbon. So, to
by the University of Lisbon. So, to alongside people like Professor Manuel
alongside people like Professor Manuel Sérgio Vieira e Cunha, people like
Sérgio Vieira e Cunha, people like Mourinho, right? Our coach, he's...
Mourinho, right? Our coach, he's... Professor David Rodrigues also
Professor David Rodrigues also will be featured as one of the 20 notable figures of
will be featured as one of the 20 notable figures of University of Lisbon. It's the professor.
University of Lisbon. It's the professor. David Rodrigues as well, the teacher
David Rodrigues as well, the teacher Margarida forgot to mention, he is
Margarida forgot to mention, he is father of the most beautiful 20-year-old girl in
father of the most beautiful 20-year-old girl in He is the grandfather of the world's ugliest dog.
He is the grandfather of the world's ugliest dog. also. He is a poet, he is a musician, and he has a
also. He is a poet, he is a musician, and he has a a series of other virtues. Uh, the
a series of other virtues. Uh, the Professor David Rodrigues will speak.
Professor David Rodrigues will speak. about inclusive education, write
about inclusive education, write Rights achieved through crooked paths. And let's go
Rights achieved through crooked paths. And let's go So let's start with Professor David.
So let's start with Professor David. Rodrigues. Thank you very much.
Very, Good morning. I already saw you today.
Good morning. I already saw you today. Eh, [laughs]
Eh, [laughs] Good morning. I wanted to greet you, in
Good morning. I wanted to greet you, in First of all, my tablemates.
First of all, my tablemates. Well, it goes without saying that they have a
Well, it goes without saying that they have a great respect for each of them.
great respect for each of them. Uh, and h, and I wanted, I wanted maybe, eh
Uh, and h, and I wanted, I wanted maybe, eh to explain the title Writing a little
to explain the title Writing a little Rights achieved through crooked paths. When I
Rights achieved through crooked paths. When I I was coming here this morning,
I was coming here this morning, I passed in front of the avenue of
I passed in front of the avenue of university.
university. On the university avenue there is a
On the university avenue there is a red sculpture, I don't know if it already
red sculpture, I don't know if it already Did you notice, there's a red sculpture of
Did you notice, there's a red sculpture of Charter de Almeida.
Charter de Almeida. And it is, and it is very interesting that that
And it is, and it is very interesting that that sculpture, I'm not going to talk about the...
sculpture, I'm not going to talk about the... The history of sculpture is a little bit like that.
The history of sculpture is a little bit like that. different from the one I'm going to pull, but the
different from the one I'm going to pull, but the The history of that sculpture tells us a lot.
The history of that sculpture tells us a lot. the idea of what entry into
the idea of what entry into university. We are at the entrance to
university. We are at the entrance to University avenue and we have an arch,
University avenue and we have an arch, other different arcs, a circle. AND
other different arcs, a circle. AND I was thinking, look, here's a
I was thinking, look, here's a Great parable about what it is that we
Great parable about what it is that we We consider today that it is the entry into
We consider today that it is the entry into university. I was comparing it to
university. I was comparing it to which was the entrance to the University of
which was the entrance to the University of Coimbra, in the Middle Ages, where there was the
Coimbra, in the Middle Ages, where there was the iron gate. The iron gate was a
iron gate. The iron gate was a The university door that he entered opened
The university door that he entered opened in the morning at 9 o'clock, I don't know what time.
in the morning at 9 o'clock, I don't know what time. It opened, but it opened the university and then...
It opened, but it opened the university and then... He closed the door. I was thinking that
He closed the door. I was thinking that difference that exists between the iron gate
difference that exists between the iron gate and the sculpture of the charts of Almeida
and the sculpture of the charts of Almeida here at the entrance to the University of
here at the entrance to the University of Lisbon. This is a first parable.
Lisbon. This is a first parable. about how we view access today
about how we view access today to the university. Not a single access point, one
to the university. Not a single access point, one an access that opens and closes, but an access
an access that opens and closes, but an access which has various forms, which includes,
which has various forms, which includes, which cherishes various ways of entering into
which cherishes various ways of entering into university.
university. It's not just square people who enter.
It's not just square people who enter. square universities. I'm only talking.
square universities. I'm only talking. In various forms, isn't it? Not just the squares,
In various forms, isn't it? Not just the squares, but the rectangular ones, the circular ones, the
but the rectangular ones, the circular ones, the hexagonal, pentagonal. Everyone
hexagonal, pentagonal. Everyone can enter university, according to us
can enter university, according to us teaches the sculpture of Chartas de
teaches the sculpture of Chartas de Almeida.
Almeida. A second issue is that I think...
A second issue is that I think... That's when we think about university.
That's when we think about university. Today, we are thinking about improving...
Today, we are thinking about improving... pedagogy.
pedagogy. Uh, in 1983,
Uh, in 1983, most of the audience wasn't even born yet.
most of the audience wasn't even born yet. still, but the problem is yours, the
still, but the problem is yours, the The problem is yours. But in 1983, I
The problem is yours. But in 1983, I I organized the first symposium called
I organized the first symposium called pedagogy at the university, in
pedagogy at the university, in University of Lisbon,
University of Lisbon, 1983. And you can't imagine the blow that...
1983. And you can't imagine the blow that... I took it. Everyone was saying pedagogy.
I took it. Everyone was saying pedagogy. at the university, but not at the university.
at the university, but not at the university. There is pedagogy. pedagogy for children
There is pedagogy. pedagogy for children They would even go looking for the root of the word.
They would even go looking for the root of the word. pedors in Greek means child, pedagogy.
pedors in Greek means child, pedagogy. For children. We at the university
For children. We at the university We lack pedagogy, we are not...
We lack pedagogy, we are not... of these. We are not like that. We in
of these. We are not like that. We in university we have knowledge,
university we have knowledge, We have transmission, we have
We have transmission, we have Responsibility, we have autonomy. Which
Responsibility, we have autonomy. Which any pedagogy,
any pedagogy, as time has shown that these people
as time has shown that these people They were mistaken, and how did we...
They were mistaken, and how did we... we are so focused today on
we are so focused today on importance of the pedagogy of
importance of the pedagogy of university, we think that what the
university, we think that what the The university can do better, isn't it?
The university can do better, isn't it? not only to produce knowledge, but also
not only to produce knowledge, but also find ways like it can
find ways like it can to mobilize people to understand
to mobilize people to understand this knowledge and to participate
this knowledge and to participate in this knowledge.
in this knowledge. And here I'll give you an example, an example.
And here I'll give you an example, an example. which was once told to me by a colleague.
which was once told to me by a colleague. mine is from a university that
mine is from a university that On the first day of classes, a blind student entered.
On the first day of classes, a blind student entered. Oh, the blind man entered the room, didn't he? And he
Oh, the blind man entered the room, didn't he? And he She gave a presentation lesson, but she was trembling.
She gave a presentation lesson, but she was trembling. He says: "My God, what could I possibly do to myself?"
He says: "My God, what could I possibly do to myself?" to happen? I already have so many problems,
to happen? I already have so many problems, I'm still going to get a blind guy on top of me.
I'm still going to get a blind guy on top of me. it is not? What's going to happen? Then
it is not? What's going to happen? Then He gave the introductory lecture and at the end
He gave the introductory lecture and at the end From the introductory class, the blind man came
From the introductory class, the blind man came talk to him to reassure him
talk to him to reassure him People with disabilities. Often
People with disabilities. Often you have to do this work of
you have to do this work of to reassure people who don't have
to reassure people who don't have deficiency. And he came to talk to the
deficiency. And he came to talk to the The professor said to him: "Look, professor,
The professor said to him: "Look, professor, Stay calm, stay calm. Yes, but how?
Stay calm, stay calm. Yes, but how? "So, how's it going to be?" Oh, professor, it is
"So, how's it going to be?" Oh, professor, it is very very easy. All I need is that
very very easy. All I need is that Professor, send me the PowerPoint that will...
Professor, send me the PowerPoint that will... spend two or three more days in class
spend two or three more days in class early. This can be resolved. And the
early. This can be resolved. And the The professor said: "It's up there, up there."
The professor said: "It's up there, up there." that. "Oh, that's great, wonderful." And it began to
that. "Oh, that's great, wonderful." And it began to To do this, he sent the PowerPoint to the
To do this, he sent the PowerPoint to the for the blind student and it remained
for the blind student and it remained amazed because despite being blind, he didn't
amazed because despite being blind, he didn't Looking at the PowerPoint, he would say: "This
Looking at the PowerPoint, he would say: "This That number in the graph is there,
That number in the graph is there, "This is fantastic." He said, "Look,
"This is fantastic." He said, "Look, Finally, this solved it. After two
Finally, this solved it. After two Weeks later, the coordinator of the class came.
Weeks later, the coordinator of the class came. He spoke to the teacher and said: "Oh
He spoke to the teacher and said: "Oh Professor, is it true that you are...
Professor, is it true that you are... Send the PowerPoint to our colleague.
Send the PowerPoint to our colleague. Blind?" Dis: "Yes, then why not?"
Blind?" Dis: "Yes, then why not?" "Send it to us too?"
This is an interesting idea about the Pedagogy at the university. How is it that
Pedagogy at the university. How is it that people who sometimes have these
people who sometimes have these difficulties that are so evident, so
difficulties that are so evident, so obvious, how can these people
obvious, how can these people to help improve pedagogy in
to help improve pedagogy in university? How does this teacher
university? How does this teacher he discovered that if he sent the PowerPoint
he discovered that if he sent the PowerPoint earlier for the students, certainly the
earlier for the students, certainly the Your classes could be better.
Your classes could be better. Therefore, when we think about
Therefore, when we think about writing rights with crooked lines, we
writing rights with crooked lines, we at the university we are traditionally
at the university we are traditionally with many crooked lines, with many
with many crooked lines, with many crooked lines. A very specific line that has the
crooked lines. A very specific line that has the to do with the transmission, which has to do with us
to do with the transmission, which has to do with us to think that students are
to think that students are absolutely inesurably autonomous.
absolutely inesurably autonomous. Neither we, let alone the students,
Neither we, let alone the students, We teachers, not even we are as much as we think.
We teachers, not even we are as much as we think. But the students, right? Why is that
But the students, right? Why is that Did we think that? And let's think about what it's like
Did we think that? And let's think about what it's like that in these crooked lines we can
that in these crooked lines we can to create rights. I mean, what is it that
to create rights. I mean, what is it that we can do it at the level of
we can do it at the level of university to protect students
university to protect students Which ones are more fragile?
Which ones are more fragile? And when we talk about more students
And when we talk about more students fragile, we're not just talking about students
fragile, we're not just talking about students with a disability. often they are even the
with a disability. often they are even the students with disabilities who end up
students with disabilities who end up because it has more support because it has more
because it has more support because it has more possibilities of saying: "Look, I have
possibilities of saying: "Look, I have I have a disability, I am entitled to this.
I have a disability, I am entitled to this. "right". But often there are students
"right". But often there are students invisible. I'm only going to talk about two or
invisible. I'm only going to talk about two or three. There are students, for example, who...
three. There are students, for example, who... Their native language is not Portuguese.
Their native language is not Portuguese. These students whose language
These students whose language mother tongue is not Portuguese, they have difficulties.
mother tongue is not Portuguese, they have difficulties. added, because in terms of what is a
added, because in terms of what is a more symbolic thought, a thought
more symbolic thought, a thought more elaborate, when we have to
more elaborate, when we have to compare concepts, when we have to
compare concepts, when we have to See and discover the differences, right?
See and discover the differences, right? between things that seem the same to us
between things that seem the same to us At first glance, these students have
At first glance, these students have increased difficulties.
increased difficulties. Therefore, we need to have a
Therefore, we need to have a particular attention to these
particular attention to these students. Another issue that is
students. Another issue that is The fundamental question is how we, in these situations,
The fundamental question is how we, in these situations, in these
in these straight lines, how do we give so
straight lines, how do we give so often given little importance to
often given little importance to mentoring and how we think that
mentoring and how we think that all the support that is given to the student has
all the support that is given to the student has Whatever comes from the teacher, it has to come from a
Whatever comes from the teacher, it has to come from a structure of the university administration, it has to come from
structure of the university administration, it has to come from Ministry of Education and it has to come
Ministry of Education and it has to come preference of any entity
preference of any entity a transcendent being that provides support. And we
a transcendent being that provides support. And we We say: "How can this happen?"
We say: "How can this happen?" "What if I don't have this support?" And many
"What if I don't have this support?" And many Sometimes we ignore that there is a lot of support available.
Sometimes we ignore that there is a lot of support available. who can be recruited, who can be
who can be recruited, who can be combined, which can be negotiated with
combined, which can be negotiated with People who are around the student.
People who are around the student. And that doesn't mean we are.
And that doesn't mean we are. to exploit other people, because
to exploit other people, because Fortunately, we know today that when
Fortunately, we know today that when If you teach, you also learn. When a
If you teach, you also learn. When a if the student is helping another
if the student is helping another student, he is also learning.
student, he is also learning. It can also be learned by teaching.
It can also be learned by teaching. And that's why I think it's very...
And that's why I think it's very... It's important for us to have this perspective, isn't it?
It's important for us to have this perspective, isn't it? only in relation to students with
only in relation to students with disability, but we think about
disability, but we think about any student who has a
any student who has a difficulty. All of us, all of us to
difficulty. All of us, all of us to Throughout our lives we face difficulties.
Throughout our lives we face difficulties. We often have emotional difficulties, many
We often have emotional difficulties, many Sometimes affective, social. Nobody loves
Sometimes affective, social. Nobody loves me. It's not when people say: "The
me. It's not when people say: "The My problem there is that nobody likes it.
My problem there is that nobody likes it. me. If I don't go looking for mine
me. If I don't go looking for mine "Friends, nobody's looking for me."
"Friends, nobody's looking for me." Welcome to the real world. Real world,
Welcome to the real world. Real world, it is not? And how do we look at
it is not? And how do we look at These difficulties? What is it that we
These difficulties? What is it that we What can we do to achieve this? Again,
What can we do to achieve this? Again, In conclusion, I think that our
In conclusion, I think that our The answer is inclusion.
The answer is inclusion. Our response is how do we...
Our response is how do we... We promote inclusion. Not only do we have
We promote inclusion. Not only do we have perspective of what support is that almost
perspective of what support is that almost which could be a type of support
which could be a type of support special education for a person who comes,
special education for a person who comes, an expert, one is also
an expert, one is also precise. as they are needed, but not
precise. as they are needed, but not To think only about that, to think that many times
To think only about that, to think that many times our greatest strength for inclusion, the
our greatest strength for inclusion, the our greatest strength is creating
our greatest strength is creating Rights in crooked lines is recruiting.
Rights in crooked lines is recruiting. the whole community to help the whole
the whole community to help the whole community, to truly create one
community, to truly create one inclusive self-help perspective, of
inclusive self-help perspective, of solidarity, of helping others in the sense
solidarity, of helping others in the sense of us being able to overcome some
of us being able to overcome some the difficulties.
the difficulties. Therefore, this would be to give a
Therefore, this would be to give a kick.
kick. Thank you very much. Thank you very much,
Thank you very much. Thank you very much, teacher. [applause]
I will now pass the word to our colleague. Lília Pires,
Lília Pires, that will pass there to the
that will pass there to the For the computer.
For the computer. No, no, I ended up not having it. Here it is
No, no, I ended up not having it. Here it is this assistant. Excellent. OK.
this assistant. Excellent. OK. Well, good morning to everyone. It's for
Well, good morning to everyone. It's for It is a great pleasure for me to return to this
It is a great pleasure for me to return to this home and being so well accompanied in this
home and being so well accompanied in this A table with my dear friend David.
A table with my dear friend David. Rodrigues and Luzia from Sometime ago
Rodrigues and Luzia from Sometime ago many years, in these 37 we have many there
many years, in these 37 we have many there in partnership and also with the professor
in partnership and also with the professor Domingues Fernandes. It is indeed a
Domingues Fernandes. It is indeed a It is an honor, and I also want to thank...
It is an honor, and I also want to thank... organizing committee of this congress
organizing committee of this congress for inviting me to participate and,
for inviting me to participate and, above all, also to include the
above all, also to include the higher education issues in a
higher education issues in a congress where people are talking about
congress where people are talking about Humanism, human rights and citizenship.
Humanism, human rights and citizenship. Well, 37 years of experience might seem like a lot.
Well, 37 years of experience might seem like a lot. a number 37, if it were 40 maybe it would be
a number 37, if it were 40 maybe it would be most remarkable, but these 37 years are 37
most remarkable, but these 37 years are 37 years lived with profound eh
years lived with profound eh emotion and resilience,
emotion and resilience, because, as we said and throughout the
because, as we said and throughout the time, inclusion is a process and the
time, inclusion is a process and the this process in higher education is a
this process in higher education is a slow process and those who work on it have
slow process and those who work on it have to actually have a lot of resilience.
to actually have a lot of resilience. because there are times that are of
because there are times that are of happiness. These are the questions that
happiness. These are the questions that The professor now says when we
The professor now says when we we managed to overcome all the
we managed to overcome all the We see obstacles and we see our students
We see obstacles and we see our students all of them following the same ones
all of them following the same ones your colleagues on the same routes,
your colleagues on the same routes, when also having academic success, it is
when also having academic success, it is For us, it's a joy. But there is also
For us, it's a joy. But there is also tears, tears of happiness and
tears, tears of happiness and also the tears of frustration. Lots of
also the tears of frustration. Lots of Sometimes this happens, but that's the case.
Sometimes this happens, but that's the case. Frustration can also make us stronger.
Frustration can also make us stronger. because, as the professor says, we don't
because, as the professor says, we don't we have to be finding the
we have to be finding the obstacles and simply accepting them
obstacles and simply accepting them obstacles. We have to look at them.
obstacles. We have to look at them. as challenges to be overcome. Put
as challenges to be overcome. Put That's right, 37 years later, since I
That's right, 37 years later, since I I entered the Faculty of Letters at
I entered the Faculty of Letters at University of Lisbon, what is it that
University of Lisbon, what is it that Has the fact changed? We can already see that the
Has the fact changed? We can already see that the The terminology has changed, hasn't it? We have
The terminology has changed, hasn't it? We have new concepts, equity, diversity,
new concepts, equity, diversity, There's talk of inclusion, things are changing.
There's talk of inclusion, things are changing. Words, but policies will have changed.
Words, but policies will have changed. Will the regulations also change?
Will the regulations also change? There are new regulations, but will they...
There are new regulations, but will they... Have practices changed as well?
Have practices changed as well? And besides, time has changed, it's been 37 years.
And besides, time has changed, it's been 37 years. But is it possible that within these walls, of
But is it possible that within these walls, of walls of the school that welcomed me 37 years ago
walls of the school that welcomed me 37 years ago Over the years, the way things have also changed has also changed.
Over the years, the way things have also changed has also changed. Do we look at each other?
Do we look at each other? These are the questions we face.
These are the questions we face. to put, and for that, what inclusion is, the
to put, and for that, what inclusion is, the Education is a fundamental right that already
Education is a fundamental right that already It was mentioned here and it's fine.
It was mentioned here and it's fine. recorded in several documents, but
recorded in several documents, but we ask ourselves now, will it be in
we ask ourselves now, will it be in higher education: this right is fulfilled
higher education: this right is fulfilled Just by opening the doors? As they would say
Just by opening the doors? As they would say Professor, a little while ago, we can all...
Professor, a little while ago, we can all... to enter, but is it just a
to enter, but is it just a The question of entering higher education? AND
The question of entering higher education? AND This is how inclusion is done, or how it can be done.
This is how inclusion is done, or how it can be done. To talk about inclusion in higher education?
To talk about inclusion in higher education? Going back a little bit,
Going back a little bit, talking about inclusion or students with
talking about inclusion or students with some are difficulties or
some are difficulties or primarily students with disabilities
primarily students with disabilities they started entering higher education
they started entering higher education starting in the 80s. And at the time what
starting in the 80s. And at the time what The problem was that there were no structures in place.
The problem was that there were no structures in place. It was a lot of goodwill, a lot of goodwill.
It was a lot of goodwill, a lot of goodwill. from the teacher, the colleague's goodwill, the
from the teacher, the colleague's goodwill, the goodwill of the employee who was taking
goodwill of the employee who was taking in the wheelchair is on or on the lap
in the wheelchair is on or on the lap colleague because there were no elevators, or the
colleague because there were no elevators, or the colleague who I would take home to record.
colleague who I would take home to record. the classes. It was all in the name of good intentions, but
the classes. It was all in the name of good intentions, but This goodwill also began to stir.
This goodwill also began to stir. It's the minds and the people who were there, because
It's the minds and the people who were there, because They started saying, "This can't be."
They started saying, "This can't be." We have, these colleagues need
We have, these colleagues need support and in the late 80s the
support and in the late 80s the student movements,
student movements, students who did not have disabilities
students who did not have disabilities And here, in these years, we've talked about students who...
And here, in these years, we've talked about students who... They had visual impairments and were for
They had visual impairments and were for They started to put pressure on each other.
They started to put pressure on each other. from the school administrations and begin to
from the school administrations and begin to the first services to emerge in
the first services to emerge in universities. passes the college to
universities. passes the college to The University of Minha is one of
The University of Minha is one of first. In 1986, the University of
first. In 1986, the University of Coimbra has the first service in
Coimbra has the first service in Portugal's support for students with
Portugal's support for students with At the time, disability was the term used.
At the time, disability was the term used. And then we continue in '88 and
And then we continue in '88 and Faculty of Letters, University of
Faculty of Letters, University of Mino and Aveiro in '94, Porto in '95
Mino and Aveiro in '94, Porto in '95 and the one in Évora in '96, that is, all of this.
and the one in Évora in '96, that is, all of this. And in this space-time we see that there is here...
And in this space-time we see that there is here... We celebrate the 30th anniversary of the declaration of
We celebrate the 30th anniversary of the declaration of Salamanca. And indeed this statement
Salamanca. And indeed this statement It also came to boost these movements.
It also came to boost these movements. within the schools without
within the schools without regulations, without
regulations, without It lacks national legislative support.
It lacks national legislative support. they came to be created and came above
they came to be created and came above Of everything, the recognition begins here.
Of everything, the recognition begins here. of students with special needs,
of students with special needs, But as the professor here was saying, the
But as the professor here was saying, the We are talking about integration. Yes, in
We are talking about integration. Yes, in Basically, we are helping the student to
Basically, we are helping the student to adapt to good. There is, in fact, no
adapt to good. There is, in fact, no She is somewhat accepted, enters the school, but the
She is somewhat accepted, enters the school, but the Regarding the measures, what is changing is very...
Regarding the measures, what is changing is very... little.
little. In the 2000s, one of these services appeared.
In the 2000s, one of these services appeared. They come together and form a group of
They come together and form a group of work that has already been discussed, the group of
work that has already been discussed, the group of work to support students with
work to support students with Deficiency in higher education. And this
Deficiency in higher education. And this It's starting to move a little, actually.
It's starting to move a little, actually. plus schools nationwide. In
plus schools nationwide. In In 2007, we conducted a survey,
In 2007, we conducted a survey, We sent this with the support of the general management of
We sent this with the support of the general management of higher education
higher education a questionnaire to find out after all
a questionnaire to find out after all How many are we, who are we, what is it that
How many are we, who are we, what is it that we have. And it's interesting that those who don't
we have. And it's interesting that those who don't had support services, starts to think
had support services, starts to think through that questionnaire, perhaps
through that questionnaire, perhaps This is a service that we should have.
This is a service that we should have. here at our school too, see you later or
here at our school too, see you later or less to
less to 2010.
2010. A lot of it comes down to integration. You
A lot of it comes down to integration. You Services are increasing more in education.
Services are increasing more in education. public education compared to private education. And in
public education compared to private education. And in 2018, with the changes in legislation
2018, with the changes in legislation In terms of compulsory education, they begin
In terms of compulsory education, they begin also to be promoted
also to be promoted Universities rethinking their reality.
Universities rethinking their reality. And not only that. There is also beginning to be a
And not only that. There is also beginning to be a greater pressure from other groups. these
greater pressure from other groups. these students that Professor David has
students that Professor David has He spoke little, the students coming from
He spoke little, the students coming from Palope, for example, are what they bring to us with
Palope, for example, are what they bring to us with in large numbers, but equally with
in large numbers, but equally with major difficulties. And we have to
major difficulties. And we have to We need to welcome them and adapt the system.
We need to welcome them and adapt the system. We have to help them succeed. is from
We have to help them succeed. is from fact a
fact a a situation that is real,
a situation that is real, but not only students with
but not only students with neurodivergences, students with,
neurodivergences, students with, forgiveness, learning difficulties
forgiveness, learning difficulties They are also beginning to emerge and request from
They are also beginning to emerge and request from a school that creates the conditions for them
a school that creates the conditions for them They need these things to achieve academic success. AND
They need these things to achieve academic success. AND it is indeed also at this moment a
it is indeed also at this moment a I'll talk to you in a little while later.
I'll talk to you in a little while later. as they begin to emerge, the schools
as they begin to emerge, the schools they start to look at this idea, this
they start to look at this idea, this issue within the scope of what they called
issue within the scope of what they called at the time social responsibility and
at the time social responsibility and This issue is beginning to be accepted as the
This issue is beginning to be accepted as the inclusion, such as being recognized as
inclusion, such as being recognized as educational quality and in the realm of ethics
educational quality and in the realm of ethics institutional. It is from this year that
institutional. It is from this year that They are starting to appear.
They are starting to appear. What is the impact? In fact, that
What is the impact? In fact, that Are we getting students? Every year,
Are we getting students? Every year, the General Directorate of Statistics of
the General Directorate of Statistics of Education and Science release the data with
Education and Science release the data with based on the questionnaire which is as
based on the questionnaire which is as institutions fill it out. And from 2024, of
institutions fill it out. And from 2024, of From 2324 to 2425, there was an increase of
From 2324 to 2425, there was an increase of 30.70%
30.70% of students who requested the status of
of students who requested the status of student with educational needs
student with educational needs specific. In the previous year, that is,
specific. In the previous year, that is, from 22 to 23 to from 22 23 to 23 24 o
from 22 to 23 to from 22 23 to 23 24 o The increase was only 8.7%. Notice, from
The increase was only 8.7%. Notice, from From one year to the next, there was a...
From one year to the next, there was a... substantial difference of 30%. But above
substantial difference of 30%. But above From everything, the increase in the private sector
From everything, the increase in the private sector It was even more significant, it was...
It was even more significant, it was... 75.70%.
75.70%. This means that students begin to
This means that students begin to also see private education is like a
also see private education is like a alternative or as a way to be able to
alternative or as a way to be able to to attend higher education.
to attend higher education. But we have this issue every year.
But we have this issue every year. That is, but ultimately there is an increase in numbers.
That is, but ultimately there is an increase in numbers. But who are these students? How is that
But who are these students? How is that We, I consider that we are a
We, I consider that we are a just a little bit like we are the service of
just a little bit like we are the service of firemen? And I'll explain why.
firemen? And I'll explain why. Because every year the students leave, they are
Because every year the students leave, they are placed in schools and we or in
placed in schools and we or in colleges and we the services there is the signal
colleges and we the services there is the signal the alarm sounds when the student arrives and says: "I
the alarm sounds when the student arrives and says: "I I'm here, I need support" and knot
I'm here, I need support" and knot that which we may have done, but if
that which we may have done, but if If there are measures, changes to the rooms, eh
If there are measures, changes to the rooms, eh to create other conditions that were not
to create other conditions that were not as planned, we begin
as planned, we begin We became firefighters because we have to.
We became firefighters because we have to. at that moment resort to everything that is
at that moment resort to everything that is the
the the resources available. Therefore, the one of
the resources available. Therefore, the one of In fact, it's a necessity that we have. We have
In fact, it's a necessity that we have. We have There is a problem in this situation. For us it is
There is a problem in this situation. For us it is It is important to know who the students are.
It is important to know who the students are. They reach us, but it's with the application of
They reach us, but it's with the application of general data protection regulation
general data protection regulation data protection, this information
data protection, this information They are not collected. Therefore, we
They are not collected. Therefore, we We know that we are having many
We know that we are having many The students are coming, and that's good, which is a good sign.
The students are coming, and that's good, which is a good sign. We are here to welcome you. But who
We are here to welcome you. But who Are these the students? I can say in
Are these the students? I can say in Faculty of Arts of the University of
Faculty of Arts of the University of Lisbon, because we work with these
Lisbon, because we work with these numbers, which I had been working with for 37 years.
numbers, which I had been working with for 37 years. with 13 students with visual impairments.
with 13 students with visual impairments. This year the number has increased, there are 123.
This year the number has increased, there are 123. But I'm talking to you about data from
But I'm talking to you about data from first semester 2020 is 20 ai 25 26
first semester 2020 is 20 ai 25 26 and that, unlike in previous years,
and that, unlike in previous years, our group with whom we work
our group with whom we work there are more students with the disorder of
there are more students with the disorder of Petro of autism, students with
Petro of autism, students with specific difficulties
specific difficulties learning. these numbers of these
learning. these numbers of these students at our college duplicated and
students at our college duplicated and In some cases, they tripled. What is this?
In some cases, they tripled. What is this? What this means is that we have here a
What this means is that we have here a The diversity of the population we have
The diversity of the population we have that you need to pay attention to. And these are not
that you need to pay attention to. And these are not included as well because they are the students
included as well because they are the students who request student status with
who request student status with specific educational needs, but
specific educational needs, but we have other groups that we give
we have other groups that we give attention. we have the case of the students for
attention. we have the case of the students for Lopes, we have the case of students with
Lopes, we have the case of students with Due to financial difficulties, we created a
Due to financial difficulties, we created a a specific program for them and much
a specific program for them and much This year is interesting, reflecting a
This year is interesting, reflecting a It is only in these numbers that these
It is only in these numbers that these programs that they don't usually watch
programs that they don't usually watch were participating, we have at least two
were participating, we have at least two students with autism spectrum disorder
students with autism spectrum disorder working in the university services,
working in the university services, which is wonderful for us, which is
which is wonderful for us, which is We finally got these resources.
We finally got these resources. that we are giving to all
that we are giving to all students, these students also resort to
students, these students also resort to him, because this also has a problem.
him, because this also has a problem. that students have to, just like in
that students have to, just like in In the past, we emerged with the
In the past, we emerged with the claiming their rights, the
claiming their rights, the our students, the students who arrive at
our students, the students who arrive at colleges, universities, have to
colleges, universities, have to to demand better conditions for themselves
to demand better conditions for themselves rights. And often what we
rights. And often what we The thing is, we call them...
The thing is, we call them... to participate in meetings, to give opinions
to participate in meetings, to give opinions so that we can improve that
so that we can improve that what we do and have many difficulties
what we do and have many difficulties times in getting your answers. Put
times in getting your answers. Put Yes, we need students, huh?
Yes, we need students, huh? Help them too, because sometimes...
Help them too, because sometimes... It's natural that they don't feel so comfortable.
It's natural that they don't feel so comfortable. to do so, but that they can effectively
to do so, but that they can effectively Give your opinion. Nowadays, education
Give your opinion. Nowadays, education superior that retains some of the
superior that retains some of the dimensions of diversity or difficulty
dimensions of diversity or difficulty in responding to diversity, to
in responding to diversity, to dimensions of inclusion, whether physical or
dimensions of inclusion, whether physical or digital, whether pedagogical or not, which is already
digital, whether pedagogical or not, which is already to speak and probably the teacher
to speak and probably the teacher Domingues will speak, but above all
Domingues will speak, but above all we are also beginning to grasp the dimension
we are also beginning to grasp the dimension cultural, linguistic and ethnic. These
cultural, linguistic and ethnic. These These are the new varieties with which we...
These are the new varieties with which we... we confronted, and also the issue of health.
we confronted, and also the issue of health. mental health and well-being. It is extremely
mental health and well-being. It is extremely important. Those who are not well have nothing.
important. Those who are not well have nothing. If you don't feel like it, let's go study. AND
If you don't feel like it, let's go study. AND I need to help and motivate our people.
I need to help and motivate our people. students in that sense, but we are
students in that sense, but we are talking about institutions and in fact
talking about institutions and in fact they continue to see, just as in other
they continue to see, just as in other Issues in the country, inequalities. There is
Issues in the country, inequalities. There is institutions, the major universities,
institutions, the major universities, those that have already started, have
those that have already started, have effectively, many services already exist.
effectively, many services already exist. consolidated and inclusive practices
consolidated and inclusive practices consistent and are currently in a
consistent and are currently in a another level to address more complex issues
another level to address more complex issues h eh various, while there are others
h eh various, while there are others universities that they still lack
universities that they still lack resources, infrastructure is lacking for
resources, infrastructure is lacking for answer some of those that we already
answer some of those that we already We don't talk about them much, despite
We don't talk about them much, despite still being present. But above all
still being present. But above all everything also includes that which, for me,
everything also includes that which, for me, My 37 years of experience is...
My 37 years of experience is... cultural resistance and issues of
cultural resistance and issues of if we make education part of the curriculum
if we make education part of the curriculum Or adapting some, we are downloading the
Or adapting some, we are downloading the level or are we affecting the quality of
level or are we affecting the quality of course. I can't be there, I've already been told...
course. I can't be there, I've already been told... me, my lady, this, I in the end
me, my lady, this, I in the end this student has a certificate equal to
this student has a certificate equal to other. And I said, "Yes, of course, but no."
other. And I said, "Yes, of course, but no." It's possible because he didn't respond to the same.
It's possible because he didn't respond to the same. CV than this colleague. if
CV than this colleague. if if you don't have a resume, you don't have the
if you don't have a resume, you don't have the I can't have a special certificate.
I can't have a special certificate. It's about fulfilling what you're asking of me.
It's about fulfilling what you're asking of me. This is one of the issues that happens and
This is one of the issues that happens and despite me telling you that for a long time
despite me telling you that for a long time Unfortunately, the schools...
Unfortunately, the schools... They're made of people, aren't they? all of us.
They're made of people, aren't they? all of us. And just a short time ago, last year,
And just a short time ago, last year, A situation arose that I never
A situation arose that I never I imagined that in the literature faculty
I imagined that in the literature faculty This happened.
This happened. if it happened. We have the service there.
if it happened. We have the service there. of firefighters. When we have a student
of firefighters. When we have a student that enters us in a wheelchair and that
that enters us in a wheelchair and that We need you, we only have two rooms that
We need you, we only have two rooms that They are not accessible at the moment. And for
They are not accessible at the moment. And for Bad luck, that student had that day.
Bad luck, that student had that day. I had a class scheduled for that room.
I had a class scheduled for that room. And we'll get the services done quickly.
And we'll get the services done quickly. They tried to change it, but incredibly...
They tried to change it, but incredibly... It seems the professor who was there did not
It seems the professor who was there did not I wanted to leave the classroom because... well, no.
I wanted to leave the classroom because... well, no. I wanted to leave the classroom and
I wanted to leave the classroom and that student was deprived that day
that student was deprived that day to be in class because the teacher is pure
to be in class because the teacher is pure and simply didn't want to switch to
and simply didn't want to switch to next room. This to me is
next room. This to me is Truly shocking. And this means
Truly shocking. And this means to say that we are 37 years old.
to say that we are 37 years old. to speak every day, to raise awareness and
to speak every day, to raise awareness and we are still confronted with something that
we are still confronted with something that For us it was so basic and it was what
For us it was so basic and it was what We fought at first, but still
We fought at first, but still It continues to be in our classrooms.
It continues to be in our classrooms. We can also say that I spoke a little while ago.
We can also say that I spoke a little while ago. the difference between eh eh services and
the difference between eh eh services and institutions,
institutions, But we have one thing that I think...
But we have one thing that I think... which is the only one. Uh, it's the one in Portugal and the
which is the only one. Uh, it's the one in Portugal and the higher education has no legislation
higher education has no legislation specific to this subject, that is,
specific to this subject, that is, We have legislation up to the level of education.
We have legislation up to the level of education. mandatory, but from then on the State
mandatory, but from then on the State continues to think it's from
continues to think it's from responsibility of universities
responsibility of universities to guarantee what belongs to
to guarantee what belongs to responsibility of the State itself
responsibility of the State itself to guarantee your rights. Because what
to guarantee your rights. Because what What does the State do? Ah, why is this?
What does the State do? Ah, why is this? Because universities, education
Because universities, education superiors have autonomy. So, inside the
superiors have autonomy. So, inside the its autonomy, that was the justification.
its autonomy, that was the justification. that they gave me, they must indeed have their own.
that they gave me, they must indeed have their own. own regulations. effectively
own regulations. effectively institutions are responding, they are...
institutions are responding, they are... to have its own regulations, but
to have its own regulations, but There is effectively here the State is...
There is effectively here the State is... to shirk responsibility for ensuring the
to shirk responsibility for ensuring the right that is enshrined in
right that is enshrined in Constitution of the Portuguese Republic, the
Constitution of the Portuguese Republic, the These students have the right to education. THE
These students have the right to education. THE What does the State do? Well, the state
What does the State do? Well, the state what he does is partially justified.
what he does is partially justified. and giving students some benefits,
and giving students some benefits, some conditions guarantee them the
some conditions guarantee them the access through the quota
access through the quota priority for candidates with
priority for candidates with deficiency. We now also have...
deficiency. We now also have... support through scholarships
support through scholarships students with disabilities up to 60%,
students with disabilities up to 60%, scholarship and accommodation supplements and
scholarship and accommodation supplements and He created it very recently, for whom
He created it very recently, for whom It's good that you see that it's in education.
It's good that you see that it's in education. Check the counter; it includes where they are there.
Check the counter; it includes where they are there. published the services that exist
published the services that exist in universities and the points of
in universities and the points of contact, which is extremely useful for
contact, which is extremely useful for whoever is following a case and
whoever is following a case and student wants to go to higher education and
student wants to go to higher education and that needs more attention
that needs more attention special. Furthermore, regarding
special. Furthermore, regarding institutions,
institutions, We've checked this recently.
We've checked this recently. It is the general direction of higher education.
It is the general direction of higher education. launched a program called program
launched a program called program success and reducing dropout rates in education
success and reducing dropout rates in education superior and that many institutions,
superior and that many institutions, namely the University of Lisbon,
namely the University of Lisbon, has been providing training for teachers, for
has been providing training for teachers, for employees, for students,
employees, for students, in matters of inclusion, of
in matters of inclusion, of diversity, among other things. Beyond
diversity, among other things. Beyond Of all this, you must have already heard of
Of all this, you must have already heard of mental health program, check
mental health program, check psychological, from the check of
psychological, from the check of Well, now it's in terms of food.
Well, now it's in terms of food. that now and others still others
that now and others still others programs that have actually given to
programs that have actually given to institutions, especially those that
institutions, especially those that They have fewer resources, their opportunity
They have fewer resources, their opportunity to improve conditions and of
to improve conditions and of to adapt their schools. to these new
to adapt their schools. to these new public, to the challenges of these new ones.
public, to the challenges of these new ones. Well, what else are we missing? H,
Well, what else are we missing? H, What we lack here, besides the legislation that
What we lack here, besides the legislation that I've already said it, we also lack a greater
I've already said it, we also lack a greater relationship with the schools of
relationship with the schools of secondary education or levels of
secondary education or levels of previous teachings so that this passage
previous teachings so that this passage We would also like that here, and I think that
We would also like that here, and I think that It was extremely productive for us to
It was extremely productive for us to to do a good job, so that we are
to do a good job, so that we are so that our students are well.
so that our students are well. integrated, that these results of
integrated, that these results of national competitions were released much earlier
national competitions were released much earlier for us, even before that of those who
for us, even before that of those who They go out for the students, that's it, for the
They go out for the students, that's it, for the students who enter through the entrance exam
students who enter through the entrance exam nationally, it is essential for us to leave
nationally, it is essential for us to leave of us, the families, being distressed
of us, the families, being distressed when you arrive, because it's a moment of
when you arrive, because it's a moment of happiness. It's the most wonderful phase of
happiness. It's the most wonderful phase of A young person's life begins when they enter education.
A young person's life begins when they enter education. superior, making friends. It's the way we are.
superior, making friends. It's the way we are. We also have mentoring programs,
We also have mentoring programs, to prepare the mentors, to
to prepare the mentors, to we prepare the activities and adapt them
we prepare the activities and adapt them as much as possible so that they can be
as much as possible so that they can be fact hh
fact hh the best moments in life.
the best moments in life. Finally, the process, the inclusion in
Finally, the process, the inclusion in higher education is an ethic in
higher education is an ethic in movement, it is in fact a process
movement, it is in fact a process demanding, it's an unfinished process, it is
demanding, it's an unfinished process, it is profoundly human,
profoundly human, It requires constant reflection from all of us.
It requires constant reflection from all of us. humility,
humility, willingness to learn and ability to
willingness to learn and ability to to change.
to change. Finally, I would like to tell you that
Finally, I would like to tell you that It is done, and this, for me, is what I...
It is done, and this, for me, is what I... He has been guiding people since he was 37 years old, which is to look...
He has been guiding people since he was 37 years old, which is to look... to the other. We don't know, we don't
to the other. We don't know, we don't We want them to decide for us, we
We want them to decide for us, we We want to be heard. Therefore, we have
We want to be heard. Therefore, we have Instead of looking at the other person, we have to listen.
Instead of looking at the other person, we have to listen. We have to adapt, we have to welcome,
We have to adapt, we have to welcome, We have to share our space. Us
We have to share our space. Us We live, inclusion is lived in our
We live, inclusion is lived in our in our daily practice
in our daily practice gestures, in our decisions, in our
gestures, in our decisions, in our attitudes, in the way we value
attitudes, in the way we value People, each one of us. And she
People, each one of us. And she It is realized in policies, culture and
It is realized in policies, culture and institutional practices, but measures
institutional practices, but measures feasible, concrete, not
feasible, concrete, not declarations of intent, because they
declarations of intent, because they They're there too.
They're there too. We have to think about ourselves, the schools, and the
We have to think about ourselves, the schools, and the Higher education trains the country's decision-makers.
Higher education trains the country's decision-makers. They are our future decision-makers. And having
They are our future decision-makers. And having also taking into account what we have already heard, it is
also taking into account what we have already heard, it is worrying. We have to create
worrying. We have to create in fact an inclusive environment. We have to
in fact an inclusive environment. We have to Educating with and for difference. We have to
Educating with and for difference. We have to effectively forming conscious citizens
effectively forming conscious citizens and supportive, promoting inclusion,
and supportive, promoting inclusion, because it's not just about teaching, it's about
because it's not just about teaching, it's about Humanism, human rights and citizenship.
Humanism, human rights and citizenship. Thanks.
Thanks. [applause]
Very good, very good.
very good. What a great 37 years! H,
What a great 37 years! H, very good. Thank you very much, professor.
very good. Thank you very much, professor. Lília Pires.
Lília Pires. Curriculum, pedagogy and assessment.
Curriculum, pedagogy and assessment. perspectives for diversity and for
perspectives for diversity and for inclusion. I now pass the word to the professor.
inclusion. I now pass the word to the professor. Domingues Fernandes.
Domingues Fernandes. Well, good morning to everyone. Eh,
Well, good morning to everyone. Eh, I naturally wanted to begin by saying hello.
I naturally wanted to begin by saying hello. my esteemed colleagues of
my esteemed colleagues of table.
table. I wanted to say thank you.
I wanted to say thank you. The honorable invitation is highly appreciated.
The honorable invitation is highly appreciated. that I was directed to be here
that I was directed to be here with you this morning. Eh,
I have a particular admiration for work of this excellent institution,
work of this excellent institution, Eh,
Eh, that Professor António Teodoro
that Professor António Teodoro he managed to gather around him
he managed to gather around him excellent quality teachers,
