The core theme is the exploration of non-duality and the nature of consciousness, positing that reality is a single, unified consciousness, and our individual selves are expressions or viewpoints within this larger reality.
Mind Map
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Consciousness
through creating the universe, it sort
of learns about itself. What does this
mean? Because people often ask this
question [music] already. This question implicitly
implicitly
assumes duality.
What adva means? It means not two. No,
it means there is only one reality. It
means there is no there's no two or more
realities. There is only one reality.
Don't I have a self then?
>> Yes, you have a self just as you have a car.
car.
You drive your car through the world. In
the same way [music] you drive this body
mind through the world, but ultimately
you are the reality of both this body
mind and the [music] world.
It's not like Shiva being conscious,
[music] pure conscious and shaki being
the world, the energy. It's not like
they exist separately from each other.
In the act of creation, of perception,
the world takes birth at every [music]
moment. Natalia, the bad news
is that
you don't have free will. The good news
is that the one who doesn't have free
Hello Francis, it's a pleasure to
welcome you to our channel. You're
spiritual leader in the tradition or
spiritual teacher rather in the
tradition of advant correct.
>> People think I am a teacher.
>> And who do you consider yourself to be? >> Nobody.
>> Nobody.
[laughter] Everybody.
>> Okay. What is it that you are doing? [laughter]
>> The the teacher appears when there is a
question. You know, in other words,
everybody is a teacher. When we are
asked a question and we answer the
question to the best of our ability, to
the best of our knowledge with
authenticity and
the the the human
human
body mind is in fact an instrument. And
it's a channel just as these earphones
or this TV set, this computer, this
camera, they are they are part parts of
>> Interesting. I have some questions
there. But first I wanted to ask you
because I was uh looking at your life
path preparing for this interview and I
thought what an amazing transformation
you you went through because you started
as an atheist a materialist with a
background in mathematics and physics.
You worked in the defense industry and
how and why did you become well let's
call it spiritual teacher for the sake
of the argument? Uh well I I first
became interested in uh
philosophy in consciousness in reality
these kind of fundamental questions
and uh
that happens to me. Uh
I had problems with my life because I
had achieved everything that [snorts]
my parents were consider considered to
be the recipes for happiness and in fact
I was miserable. You know a good job,
good education,
uh two cars in the driveway, a house
etc. And but I was miserable. I got
divorced, was sick. Uh I was bored with
my job and um
and so uh I was seeking a solution to this
this
problem. I was seeking happiness and in
a bookstore in Paris in the Latin Quarter.
Quarter. I
I
I was attracted by a book by Krishna
Merti and I went to a nearby bistro.
It was in the spring and
and
three hours later I I had read all the
books and I came back to the bookstore.
I bought all the books by this author.
So that triggered a very intense
[snorts] surge. Then I went become
interested in Zen in
India, Hindu philosophy, talism,
uh early Christianity etc. All the all
the religions basically and all the philosophies
philosophies
that's how it started.
>> Why did you sort of stick with advite?
Was it more appealing than than Buddhism
or Christianity or any other tradition?
>> No. All these all these traditions uh
you know if there is one truth one
reality it is the same for all. So
ultimately different expression. If they
are authentic, if they come from this
authentic experience are simply
different ways of expressing the same experience
experience
and these ways change
depending on the local culture in which
are expressed. So they change
uh over space and over time.
And uh
for me spirituality is not different
from philosophy. Right? Philosophy is
ethmologically means the love for
wisdom. And my teacher defined wisdom as
the science of happiness
or I would say the art of live of living
a fulfilling life. So that would be my
definition of wisdom. In other sense,
uh philosophy is not about more
acquiring more knowledge. It is very
different in that sense from physics or
math or where
science works through extension
expansion and it's a kind of
[clears throat] infinite
expansion knowledge.
Uh whereas um true philosophy is not about
about
knowing more.
It's about living, finding happiness,
finding peace, inner peace. Uh I often quote
quote
a definition of philosophy by French
almost 20th century philosophers.
I think it's Jack Maritan who said
uh the goal of philosophy
is to um
liberate oneself from fear [snorts]
You see, so I I go a little further than
that. So all these tradition, all these
boil down to the same essence if you
will. And uh in my case
after I became interested in this at
some point I wanted to meet someone
who would uh
be an example who could show me okay
what does that mean to live in inner
peace you see so I was seeking for a
teacher and I met a gentleman
in the south of France
>> Jean Klene
>> Jean Klein and
he had met his teacher in India and
[clears throat] so that was the
tradition of advita vidanta
but both John Clan and I we
we were not fundamentalists in the sense
of quite the opposite. He would
recognize the the truth in many
different traditions and also the
absence thereof in many traditions
So for you then philosophy and because
advita vidanta is also a philosophy of
course it's a spiritual tradition but
it's also considered philosophical
tradition because what you're saying is
that you are employing um introspection.
So for you spirituality and philosophy
if not the same at least they are very
much intertwined. Is that correct?
Well, true philosophy or
perennial philosophy
and uh spirituality
are the same and that's very different
from religion. uh it becomes religion
the moment there is addition to a belief
but what I mean addition I mean
additioning with exclusion [clears throat]
[clears throat]
addition and exclus add addition to to a
practice to a right type of behavior and
that doesn't recognize other possibilities
possibilities
you see so it is this at that moment but
the most important definition for me for
for that that establishes a distinction is
is
the moment there is an element of belief
that comes into play
as long as it be as it remains purely
experimental it's philosophy
or spirituality
>> I understand and I guess religions are
also most of them have institutions
which I think advice evidant that
doesn't have a
>> I don't know
>> a centralized church and and a pope and
all that stuff.
>> You [laughter] see
what advita means? It means not two. No,
it means there is only one reality. It
means there is no there's no two or more
realities. There is only one reality.
Okay. So I was looking one day there is
at the Stanford University there is on
they have a website and there is
something about a part of it which is
about philosophy
and I looked into it about monism which
is in fact the Latin equivalent Greek
monos only one only one reality monis
means advita means nonuality but when I
look into the website I could see that
there were distinctions between six or
seven I don't remember kinds of monism
how is that possible
if there is only one reality that's it
everything is this single reality right
you cannot make a distinction between
because if this monism is different from
that monism
it means that at least one of these
denies that there is only one reality
that's The point that I was making by
saying no exclusion in this sense you
know no addition to
it all flows in the moment
>> when you say it's nondual tradition
could you maybe say a few words what
does this mean because people often ask
this question
>> yeah well there are two kinds of
traditions there is I would say
tradition with a small T and tradition
there are many of those I learned math
and physics in the sense that's a
tradition we have a tradition of math it
was given to me by my teacher in the
books I read right I learn so there are
many tradition tradition means that
which gets transmitted right and
the so you can transmit a prayer you can
transmit a mantra you can transmit a way
of behavior you can transmit all these
things, dos and don'ts, you know, the
the the the ten commandments, you can
transmit belief system, Jesus was born
out of a virgin. You can transmit many
things, but all of these traditions with
a small of what they have in common is
that they transmit
forms. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> They transmit
What I'm talking about here, the
tradition with a capital T is a
transmission of the experience of consciousness.
consciousness.
The transmission of the experience of
our true nature as human being as consciousness.
consciousness.
And that is the same for all when it
when we get it.
You see, so that's why there is only
real tradition and that that's really
the only one that counts and in a sense
I now know that that was the reason I
was seeking
uh to meet my teacher.
>> If you had to describe a couple of
points, what are the key premises of
your teachings?
Well, if I if I say that
uh and I will say it, but that's only a pointer
pointer and
and
the pointer is very simple. There is
only one reality.
If you ask me
what does reality means, I mean that
which exists in itself for itself by itself.
itself.
And u
if you ask me then what the only
uh a
nonduality is if you will is there is
only one reality.
are defined. And then if you ask me,
can you experientially
point at this reality?
I would say whatever it is which is
really hearing my words right now
is this reality.
You see, because there is there is only
one reality.
And whatever it is [snorts] that is
hearing them
>> And you call that reality consciousness.
>> Oh, you can call it whatever you want.
You know, [clears throat] usually we
call it consciousness. Whatever it is,
we just hearing these words, we call it
consciousness usually. But you can call
it whatever you want because we can call
it I because we say I am hearing the
words. It's not somebody else.
It's me. So uh [clears throat] we can
call it I or self or my true nature. My
true identity. Your true nature. Your
true identity.
>> Yeah. [snorts] The words are tricky
because that's where we all get confused
because we all mean something else. You
know consciousness for me is one thing
for you it's something else and then we
try to have a conversation
>> or what is it for you?
>> I actually agree with your definition
but I think under analytic idealism the
terminology is more like mind or mind at
large which is part of the universal
consciousness. I think that's that's how
analytic idealism sort of panned it. But
ultimately, yes, it's it's
consciousness, fundamental, irreducible.
>> It doesn't matter whether we call it
mind. For instance, in the Zen
tradition, they tend to call it mind.
Uh and what they call consciousness,
most people what they call consciousness
is the content of consciousness.
And uh but I think the the the the
big the big obstacle to this liberating
experience I talk about and the
traditions talk about
is the belief that there is
that there is an absolute or universal
And at the same time that there are
many consciousnesses,
individual consciousnesses
or that there are many uh
many perceivers
and that's the fundamental thing. So if
we talk about idealism for instance,
if you look at Bishop Barklay for
instance, his form of idealism if is
like the the latter was he believes that
there are many consciousnesses. After
all, he is a bishop, you know, he does
it cannot go against the teaching of the
church, right? He believed that there is
many there are many consciousness and
that therefore we are separate individual
individual
and that independently from those there
is God's consciousness shining or the
universal consciousness shining out
there. The problem with this is that God
remains or universal consciousness
remains at the infinite distance from our
our
own consciousness.
This conscious of of us [clears throat]
of ours poor mortals.
And the big
the big step
is the realization that there is no such
a limited consciousness.
That actually in this moment
whatever is hearing my words
is precisely this universal consciousness.
consciousness.
>> Okay Francis, but what do I do with
this? I have a birth date. I have a
name. I woke up this morning. I had
coffee and
for breakfast. Sorry, I couldn't
[laughter] resist my French. [gasps]
And it's, you know, I have plans for
tomorrow. I have memories. I have
parents. I have friends. So, what am I
then? Who am I? Don't Don't I have a
self? Then
>> you live your life just as Yes, you have
a self just as you have a car.
You drive your car through the city and
through the world. In the same way, you
drive this body mind through the world.
But ultimately, you are the reality of
both this body mind and the world.
>> Isn't that duality?
>> No, that's the opposite. You are the
reality of both the body, mind, and [clears throat]
[clears throat]
the world.
the the the apparent diversity between
the body mind and the world arose only
because you asked the question and for
me to answer your question I have to
answer your question at your level I
have to answer the question in the world
in which there are quason and some are
good some quasants are not that good so [laughter]
>> okay appreciate
Um, but how do I know it's true? Because
all I know is this my experiences, you
know, touch, smell, sight, uh, you know,
emotions, thoughts. What kind of, you
know, universal whatever big
consciousness are you talking about?
>> Okay. Okay. The question is how do I
know that this consciousness which is
hearing my words right now
is not limited. Correct?
That it is eternal. That it is the
reality of all things.
>> Yeah. How do I know?
>> How do I know? Okay. First answer. How
do I know that it isn't? What's your evidence?
evidence? [snorts]
[snorts]
>> My sensory [clears throat] p perceptions
and and and um the thinking and all the
you know biological processes which are
at least a correlates of those at least
>> correlates of of what
>> of my thoughts, my emotions, my memories.
memories.
There is no problem
>> brain activity.
>> That's a good question. I should ask you that.
that.
>> All of that. All of that appears in your
Right.
>> In terms of being my awareness. That's
what you're in this.
>> Well, all of that appears in you.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can register most of it.
it.
>> Yeah. Most of it I can register. There
are some subconscious processes which I
don't register right in body.
>> Well, that's that's a different story
because if you don't perceive them,
>> they are not experienced. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> They are concepts
but they are not facts.
>> Well, they are measured by by by by
science. Science tells me that my brain
my brain decides uh uh to lower the
temperature or to you know to increase
the temperature or how it keeps the the
blood uh uh acidity on a certain level
in certain organs. I don't control that.
That's that's subconsciously done.
Science tells me
>> the fact I'm not denying that
there are facts that
that
I'm not denying that. And [clears throat]
[clears throat]
I'm not dying
that because if I ask you what were you
thinking this morning while having your
crossome you don't remember all of your
thoughts it doesn't mean you didn't have
thoughts at that time right so I'm not
denying anything but what I am talking
about is this any evidence we may have
that consciousness is limited what I
call consciousness
whatever it that whatever is hearing my
words right now
whatever you call it what do you what
are you calling it
>> I don't know awareness I'm aware of I'm
hearing your your thoughts I'm aware of
of them I think about them I analyze them
them >> okay
>> okay
whatever evidence you have that this
awareness which is hearing my words
right now is limited in any fashion or
form. What whatever evidence you have is
appearing in this awareness. Right. >> Correct.
>> Correct.
>> And that's the only way you have access
to this evidence only way. Right.
Right.
>> Yep. Yep. Now,
how could possibly
something that appears in your awareness
give you some information
It's like it's like you have an astronomer,
astronomer, right?
right?
Looking at galaxies, stars,
how could possibly whatever is seen by
the astronomer
give us any information
on the astronomer? whether it's a man, a
woman, the age, the color of the eyes,
the color of the of the of the skin, the
whatever is. So if you if you if you
take this analogy,
it will lead to a deep understanding
that whatever you perceive in awareness
cannot tell you any experiential
information about the awareness that
perceives it.
And from understanding what I have just
mentioned, if you go deeply into it,
that whatever is perceived in awareness
[snorts] cannot deliver any information
on the awareness that perceives it. It
follows that in particular as a
corollary in particular
whatever is perceived in awareness
by us by others
cannot tell us cannot answer questions
such as is awareness limited
in space in time does it have a beginning
beginning
in time does it have an end if you look
at your awareness Yes. Do you remember
when it began? Can you assign a beginning?
beginning?
>> No. First memories from my early
childhood. I think that's the earliest I could.
could.
>> Yeah. But that that that's about
something that appears in awareness, but
not about the awareness, right?
>> Yeah, that's correct. Yes. Yes.
>> So, and if you cannot answer this
question, do you think that I can answer
this question better or that the pope
can answer better? No. No. The question
is I don't have an answer to this
question. I don't have an answer. Okay,
that's very important [snorts] and
that's very important because believe
many people believe awareness begins
awareness ends.
That's a religion. We were talking about
religion. That's precisely a religion.
What a religion is is a is a belief
without any experiential foundation.
It's a religion. It's useless.
It's detrimental to our happiness to
believe that we begin and that we end
because once and then I'm trying to go
move towards [snorts]
your your objection. Now that we have established
established
I hope for good forever that we have no
evidence whatsoever that awareness is
limited in any fashion or form.
>> We can't exclude it. No. From my
experience, my localized experience, I
cannot exclude that. Yes.
>> Okay. Let's move one step further. If
you're a scientist, right, and
and
let's say you are going to measure the
spin of an electron around a certain
axis and it can have two value either
plus one/2 or negative one/2, right?
right?
And if you have no knowledge whatsoever
about this electron, you have never met
this electron before.
And if you are asked what is the
rational way to assign the probabilities
between the two possible outcome, what
>> Probability 50/50. I don't know
>> exactly. No, no, it's not that you don't know.
know.
>> I don't have prior experience or prior
measurements which give me something
else. I I would say 50/50. [laughter]
>> Exactly. If if I have no clue whether
whether I would meet this person
tomorrow or not, you know, no clue
whatsoever. You see, or whatever. I I I
toss a coin. have no clue whether it's
going to be uh heads or tails, you know,
the logical way to behave is 50/50. [laughter]
[laughter]
Some people when you tell them what I've
just told you, they forget it. They say,
"Okay, yeah, that's interesting. It's
odd. It makes sense what Francis says,
but I'm not going to investigate that
further. I'm not really interested
because I'm more interested in my quasa
in my whatever in my science whatever.
But some people they say wow
that makes sense.
Let's investigate this evidence I have [snorts]
[snorts]
or I believe to have in science, in neurology,
neurology,
psychology, whatever, physics,
chemistry, biology,
whatever evidence I have that
consciousness is separate
and or not. [snorts]
But the problem is that when we do the
when we conduct this investigation,
we discover yes, Francis is absolutely
right. I have no
solid evidence whatsoever.
I have no solid evidence whatsoever. And
then that's when we reach the true 5050
allocation of probabilities if you will.
You see
now how to go further?
How to go further? And
And
there are two paths [snorts]
to go further.
I call them the path of the
mathematician and the path of the physicist.
physicist.
>> They're different.
>> Of course.
>> Okay. Science. Science to me. Okay.
Please, please go ahead. I'm really
curious now.
>> Well, mathematics is about mathematical
ideas. [snorts]
Physics is about the world. Mathematics
has nothing to do with the world.
Physics has everything to do with the world.
world.
Mathematics is a language which is used
to do physics. And
And
it is strangely efficient.
There are the path of the
mathematicians, the path of the phys.
But this this is a metaphor. It's an
analogy. It's not really that we are
going to use mathematics or physics.
what I call the the path of the
physicist is an experiential path to
to
what we do in physics you know let's say
we don't do we don't know what the spin
of this electron is well we we send it
to a stern and gala uh device and if it
turns left it's plus if it turns right
it's minus and that's it you know So in
other words, by conducting the
experiment, we ask nature a question.
By looking at the outcome, we get the
answer. Right? So here is the
the
description
of the past of the physicist. In this regard,
regard, we
we
in our life
we come at
forks on the road so to speak
in which for instance the decision we make
make
would be different
depending on whether
present in a relation with a person
whether your consciousness And my
consciousness is the same. Not a similar
one, but exactly the same. In other
words, whether you are me and I am you,
whether I am universal or whether we are
separate consciousnesses.
You see,
you could envision situation in which
the decision will be different.
It happens often in life, right? When
egoism comes comes in in a decision we
make for instance [snorts] or when
stupidity comes in and then we we
conduct experiment because we have the
choice we have the freedom either to go
the multiple consciousnesses path or the
the only one consciousness path or the
only one awareness path
and then we look at the outcome.
there's going to be an outcome and we we
look at the outcome in two ways. What
happens in the world as a result
and what happens within us also
and my contention is this [snorts]
is that in both
in both sides on both sides [snorts]
if we take what I call the impersonal
decision in other words the one which is predicated
predicated >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> Upon the assumption that consciousness
is universal that in your terms that's
awareness is universal
the outcome will be an increase in
harmony happiness peace both externally
and internally
I'm not I don't mean that the world is
going to to change immediately you know
but what I'm going what but What I'm
saying is the world is is going to be a
better place and that we are to going to
be in a better place to express myself
in lay using lay language right. So as
we multiply these experiments,
you see, we tend to accumulate a body of
evidence [snorts] that points towards
that changes the allocation of
probabilities [snorts] from 50/50 to a different
different distribution.
distribution.
Right? So that that's the uh experiential
the
the path of the mathematician
It has to do with the experience of pure
are not aware of the possibility of the
exist of the experience of pure
consciousness meaning consciousness
They believe that awareness is always
exist always with a perception, with a
and the the experience with perception I
call it phenomenal experience.
The experience of pure awareness I call
it numinal experience in contra
distinction with the other. So the
phenomenal experience
has two features, two qualities
that are not present in the experience
of pure consciousness.
The first
feature of phenomenal experience is that
it's time. It elapses in time. There is duration.
The second feature
is that it can never be 100% certain.
That's interesting
for the following reason.
Remember that when you dream, when we dream,
dream,
we believe that the content of the dream
is real.
Right? If a tiger
is assaulting us, we are afraid, right?
Meaning we believe it's a real tiger, right?
right?
>> In the dream. Of course.
>> In the dream. Yes. Exactly. In the
dream. So since
whatever is phenomenally perceived in
uh
cannot tell us that we are dreaming. Right?
Right?
How can be sure that now the phenomenal
is telling us that we are not dreaming?
In other words, we cannot be sure
that the phenomenal content of our
experience is real.
We cannot be sure that this
vase or this object in front of me
exists independently from my mind. I
cannot be sure. Right?
Okay. going back to because we are
trying I was trying to make the
distinction between phenomenal and
numinal or nonfenomomenal experience
it's different
regarding the experience of consciousness
consciousness
if I ask you are you conscious
what say you
>> I would say yes very likely that I
because I I have feelings I have a a
feeling of a body. I am hearing what
you're saying. I'm analyzing it. So, I
have thoughts and I have questions. So,
it gives me a feeling that I am >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> conscious. I'm aware.
>> So, uh and you you know that you are
conscious from direct experience, right?
In other words, not from hearsay, not
because your dad has told you you know
you are at some point you are, you know,
you're conscious. Oh, wow. I wasn't
conscious before. No. No. Right. You you
know it from direct experience.
>> in instant? Yeah.
>> Instantness, you know. So in other
words, we derive this certainty of
consciousness from from an experience
which seems not to have duration in time
but which comes with absolute certainty
unlike the phenomenal experience of of
whatever we see around us. You see two
very distinctive features.
And the reason why this experience of
pure consciousness through which we know
that we are conscious
the reason why it seems to be instantaneous
instantaneous
is because there are no perception
there. You see, in order to have a time,
the sense that time elapses,
we need to have perceptions.
Like the the hand of the clock moves
from here to here, you see. And uh
without perception,
it's instantaneous
already. When you when we don't memorize,
memorize,
it seems that time has not elapsed.
after Anastasia for instance we have
been out for two hours and it seems that
right so
>> but my mind puts it in a timeline so I
have a registration right so we started
the conversation I ask so many questions
and so the moments the instances the
moment continue but then my mind puts it
in a specific timeline am I correct yeah okay
okay
>> yes you go back to the dream if you will
and in the dream
You have the timeline just as in your
dream you have a dream. You have the
dream that
in the past you got married and then you
had this child and then your husband
passed away and the child passed away.
Right? You wake up where was this
marriage? Where was this time? Where was
his first child? This where
it was in the moment of the dream. There
was no past. But by going back, if you
could go back to the dream, then of course.
course.
Yes. So all it boils down to is this
distinction between first person
experience and third person experience.
You see, we conduct science from a third
person experience vantage point. And
it has its usefulness
because in a sense
we have to move in a world where
third person experience works
that this dream. But in terms of
happiness, of love, of beauty, of peace,
of understanding, of harmony, there is a
different dimension
other than that which is to which
practical life
uh uh applies and
in which we do physics.
Uh there is a different world,
a different place. I wouldn't say a
world no different place just as there
is a different place in which we do math
which is not the world we don't do math
in the world
you know what got me um is actually
um out of body experiences during
near-death experiences when people were
brought into operating theater in coma
and left in coma and the brain was in a
state of clinical death so the apparatus
was not working and yet the person comes
back and perfectly describes not just
some beautiful colors, lights and
everything, some random stuff. No, no,
no. The person describes what was in in
operating theater, recognizes the nurses
saying, "Please bring my dentals back.
You took them out because you wanted to
intubate me." So, so incredibly specific
stuff that you can't even call it
hallucination. So that that really got
me because [laughter]
there must be something to it because if
the body is not functioning at all and
our doctors are saying thinking dreaming
even hallucinations are not possible
because there is no brain activity
whatsoever [laughter and gasps] and then
person comes back with the story I don't
know how to explain it
>> yeah and and that's and that's the
reason why it becomes obvious that
first person experience and third person
experience don't coincide they are Not
the same experience obviously. So for
instance when we say someone is conscious
conscious
from a medical vantage point you know
the doctor declared in this in the case
of this patient
he is unconscious or even his brain dead
brain dead right but the first based on
experience which is a real consciousness
is different. So we should have two def
two different word. One which is being
conscious as a first person consciousness
consciousness
and the second one will be to be
declared conscious as a third person
definition of consciousness and they
don't coincide experientially. We know
that they don't coincide. So what I'm
when so that's very important because
when I talk about consciousness I'm
talking always about first person consciousness
consciousness
because it is the only consciousness
which is experienced.
The other consciousness is not experienced.
experienced.
We experience feature of a body or the
absence of electrical signals in the
brain but we don't experience the
consciousness of the other person. You see,
see,
so the only consciousness with the or
awareness which is truly experienced is
the first person one. The other one is a fake
fake
consciousness. It has its value. Of course,
course,
I want to be resuscitated, right? I
[snorts] don't care what they call me,
but the one I'm talking about is the one
we actually experience. It's our true
experience of consciousness. And uh this
one we have to be open to the possibility
possibility that
that
it is not limited
by anything that it is not dependent
upon the body and that it is not
localized in space or time because we
have no evidence, [snorts]
zero evidence
that it is the case. And as a result,
we are allowed to be open to the
possibility to the other possibility
that it is universal and that in fact
it is the reality of everything or that
the reality of everything
>> I have an example from our YouTube
channel audience. Uh it's a metaphor so
bear with me has some description and
would be helpful to get your thoughts on
that. So here it goes. Um, if
consciousness is all there is and we are
just its viewpoints,
it must be like a single actor in a
theater playing multiple characters at
the same time and each of them with
amnesia so that they don't know they are
one and the same actor.
Of course, the theater, the material
universe exists only because this actor
exists. And the irony is that the
characters feel that there is more to
life than just their roles. They have
this inner striving to seek the truth
built in them. So and some discover
there this one actor but they have to
keep on playing their roles in the play.
So what's the point of this game and why
has it started as if it if it has
started in the first place? And I have
uh some some speculations that we can
offer you Francis. You don't have to
take them. Um so one is is the actor
trying to deal with extreme loneliness.
So it's hard even to imagine oneself
alone with nothing and nobody. You
probably would trade any experience in
this world for for being completely
alone and completely. The second option
um is love.
Why don't you why don't you take them
one by one?
>> Okay, let's take them one by one. Good
good point. So, what do you think? Start
with is is the metaphor correct more or
less in terms of describing the nature
of reality?
>> The metaphor is correct. It's it's nice
and but like any analogy it has its limitation
limitation >> simplifications
>> simplifications
>> and it reaches its limitation
with this first explanation
the loneliness. [snorts]
So because the assumption is that
consciousness when it is alone in other
words without objects is miserable is
lonely and that's quite the opposite.
But consciousness in this aloneeness
is pure happiness pure joy pure eternity.
eternity.
And out of this eternity there is a kind
of desire to to enjoy the fullest of its
creative powers. And then it creates
that it creates all this mess. Right? So [snorts]
[snorts]
[laughter] this first explanation comes
definitely from ignorance comes from an
absence of experience of pure consciousness.
consciousness. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> So I think you are closer to the second
speculation we have which is is love the
inherent nature of this actor and so it
is compelled to create someone else to
love and that's a postulate from cabal
as well
specific
Love is the experience
by two beings of their oneness,
right? By two being. But that's not what
love is, right?
right? Uh
Uh
when two apparent apparently separate
beings experience love,
they discover that they are the
universal being which is very different.
They become the all the whole. Right?
That's a true experience of love. And
this experience of love then of course
is not limited to
relationships for instance or to
you can have the same feeling with the
creation with nature. You know, you you
drive down from your hill and you see
the you see the beautiful city and the
distant mountain and the sky and and and
you think, "Oh, God,
your creation is so beautiful, you know,
and and it's love. It's not just love
for a person, you know, but the smile
you exchange with a stranger in the bus,
you know, that's also a moment of where
we lose our distance, right? we lose our
distance. We we won't see this person we
won't see this person again in our life.
Right? It it's it's this this
recognition of our oneness. Uh [clears throat]
[clears throat]
so so the experience of love is not like
two hands [laughter]
that come together and becomes one hand
which is still limited.
is two hands that come in this coming
together dissolve
And the last speculation if is it true
or not
or is it dreaming the reality into
existence its inherent nature not love
or not just love and then the whole
universe this theater with all the
characters is its ultimate dream as some
spiritual traditions uh [clears throat]
postulate that it is
>> yeah but but but it's a dream out of
love because it is love that dreams a
dream it is Vishnu that dreams
the the world but Vishnu is love itself.
So he cannot be present at that separate
reality alternatives. Uh yes in a sense
it is a dream. It is a dream in
reference to its absolute reality.
Right? In other words the world is a
dream. Yes, the world is a dream only to
the extent that it is seen as different
When the world is seen as consciousness itself,
itself,
it's no longer a doing. It's reality.
You see that's that's that's very important.
important.
uh in [clears throat] in the Indian
tradition they say uh it's not like
Shiva being conscious pure conscious and
shaki being the world the energy it's
not like they exist
separately from each other no it's just
that Shiva
becomes Shaki and Shaki becomes Shiva in
the act of creation of perception uh the World
World
takes birth at every moment and the
birth the world gets anhilated at every
moment. You know it's a we think that
things are material you know even even
from the vantage point of science of
physics you know we think of that's this
table here it's solid in fact if I go down
down
to the atomic level and to the subatomic level
level
it's only space
it's only space it's just because there
are electromagnetic forces that create
this seeming
uh solidity but in fact it's only space
and in this space
we think that we have a little pieces of granite
granite
called particles. No, even that is not
true. You know what we have is fields
and exitation of these fields and
interaction between these fields and
it's all a continuous movement like like
the ocean you see. So
our view our I I I I could the caveman
or woman view of the world you know is
very simplistic
and it doesn't jive with a more profound
view that we acquire through scientific knowledge
knowledge
and this more profound view of we
removes
the matter light quality of the world
like matter like like being made of
little pieces of metal or little pieces
of stone. Right? This matter like
remains in our common psyche, right? But
it it gets removed. It it becomes more
like emptiness. [snorts] The the vacuum
actually we have this thing we have we
have the the vacuum state in in in in
quantum physics the the vacuum state and
and excitements.
So exitations.
So it becomes something more intangible,
more transparent, more awareness like.
And so
that opens then the possibility for the
ultimate reality of the world once it
has lost through this scientific
investigation, right? lost its matter
like quality, its solidity, it becomes
something very different. And once
consciousness, awareness
through our investigation
has been differentiated from the objects
of consciousness, the thoughts, the
perceptions. So that consciousness is
not seen as a thought
not as as the content of consciousness
but as this invisible presence.
So then that makes possible for the two
to be the same. You see for the the
fundamental equation you know of
But what is the point of this game?
What's the purpose of it all? Did has it
have beginning? Will it have an end? >> What
>> What
>> human mind wants to know? We want to know.
know.
Do you have an idea or speculation, hypothesis?
hypothesis?
>> Because it's enjoyable. Because the game
the game is really about consciousness. [snorts] It has it has been about
[snorts] It has it has been about consciousness
consciousness all along. All along that was we were
all along. All along that was we were seeking. It's it's a kind of a game of
seeking. It's it's a kind of a game of hide and seek with ourselves. We have
hide and seek with ourselves. We have lost
lost and it's like the boy scouts, you know,
and it's like the boy scouts, you know, we we have this treasure hunt type of
we we have this treasure hunt type of game, right? in Boy Scouts and uh and
game, right? in Boy Scouts and uh and there are signs and we first see the
there are signs and we first see the first signs and our interest gets
first signs and our interest gets high stronger stronger strong right and
high stronger stronger strong right and we we move to the treasure but then life
we we move to the treasure but then life is about celebration and whatever that
is about celebration and whatever that which is visible
which is visible celebrates the invisible
celebrates the invisible everything then there is no preference
everything then there is no preference our relationships
our relationships are a celebr celebration or our
are a celebr celebration or our encounters, our uh being in nature, the
encounters, our uh being in nature, the the the quasa in the morning.
the the quasa in the morning. All of that, the tea, you know, the the
All of that, the tea, you know, the the perfume of of vanilla when I I I I make
perfume of of vanilla when I I I I make my waffles in the morning. Look, all of
my waffles in the morning. Look, all of that is part of the celebration. But
that is part of the celebration. But what it is that we like the most, and
what it is that we like the most, and that's something
that's something that which we love really is
that which we love really is consciousness.
consciousness. We love consciousness in all beings.
We love consciousness in all beings. That's love. What we understand as love
That's love. What we understand as love usually. But consciousness is the unique
usually. But consciousness is the unique object of our love. And
object of our love. And but it is so
but it is so present
present that
that we take it for granted.
It's like someone who all of a sudden gets COVID, cannot
who all of a sudden gets COVID, cannot breathe any longer, gets intubated, you
breathe any longer, gets intubated, you know. And he says, "Oh, if only I could
know. And he says, "Oh, if only I could breathe again. I don't care about money.
breathe again. I don't care about money. I don't care about fame. I If I only
I don't care about fame. I If I only could breathe the way I used to." You
could breathe the way I used to." You see? But as long as he was breathing, he
see? But as long as he was breathing, he was taking it for granted, right? And
was taking it for granted, right? And now it has become become its most
now it has become become its most precious
precious good.
good. But think about consciousness. It's even
But think about consciousness. It's even more precious to us [snorts] than the
more precious to us [snorts] than the breath.
breath. And that's and that's what that's the
And that's and that's what that's the experiential
experiential reason
reason for me to say that that which love the
for me to say that that which love the most is consciousness. We just forget
most is consciousness. We just forget it.
it. What do you think about this? Another
What do you think about this? Another hypothesis or another explanation I've
hypothesis or another explanation I've heard which sort of makes sense to me
heard which sort of makes sense to me but I'm I'm wondering about your
but I'm I'm wondering about your thoughts that consciousness through
thoughts that consciousness through creating the universe through
creating the universe through experiencing
experiencing itself. It sort of learns about itself.
itself. It sort of learns about itself. It's like a night cannot see itself. So
It's like a night cannot see itself. So it has to create something which would
it has to create something which would reflect back in order. But so as it as
reflect back in order. But so as it as it's doing something through us and
it's doing something through us and through everything which exists, it sort
through everything which exists, it sort of learns about what it is.
of learns about what it is. >> Yes. But you see the question you ask
>> Yes. But you see the question you ask uh the question you ask is
on on all all these three possibilities that we envision, right? It's
that we envision, right? It's what's the goal? What's the purpose?
what's the goal? What's the purpose? Right? And already this question
Right? And already this question implicitly
implicitly assumes duality
assumes duality right because a goal is to move from
right because a goal is to move from here to there.
here to there. It takes duality for granted. Whereas
It takes duality for granted. Whereas advant say no no no I'm sorry you are
advant say no no no I'm sorry you are making when you ask this question you
making when you ask this question you are already cooked because you are
are already cooked because you are already buying into evolution from here
already buying into evolution from here to there you see as being important.
to there you see as being important. No [clears throat]
No [clears throat] uh this reality is perfectly happy
uh this reality is perfectly happy within itself and of itself and besides
within itself and of itself and besides there is nothing outside of it. You see
there is nothing outside of it. You see uh it's like a and when I say this
uh it's like a and when I say this reality moves it's important to
reality moves it's important to understand because
understand because when we talk about motion
when we talk about motion there are two possibility let's say I
there are two possibility let's say I say everything we see is like the waves
say everything we see is like the waves in the in the ocean right it's it's it's
in the in the ocean right it's it's it's like everything we see is a movement of
like everything we see is a movement of consciousness
but then there is another way to understand the
there is another way to understand the movement of consciousness. It's like
movement of consciousness. It's like taking the Atlantic Ocean and
taking the Atlantic Ocean and transporting it [snorts] where the
transporting it [snorts] where the Pacific Ocean is. You see, in other
Pacific Ocean is. You see, in other words, it's no longer a movement of the
words, it's no longer a movement of the ocean within itself.
ocean within itself. It's a movement of the ocean itself.
It's a movement of the ocean itself. So consciousness,
So consciousness, when I say conscious, there is a
when I say conscious, there is a consciousness moves, it moves within
consciousness moves, it moves within itself.
itself. But not out of itself to a different
But not out of itself to a different place because there is no other place
place because there is no other place for reality to go. Right.
for reality to go. Right. >> Yeah. It's like there is only Pacific
>> Yeah. It's like there is only Pacific Ocean. Nothing else [laughter] exists.
Ocean. Nothing else [laughter] exists. Right.
Right. Taking your example to an extreme.
Taking your example to an extreme. [laughter]
Have you had a direct experience of this actor, this pure consciousness? What
actor, this pure consciousness? What it's like?
Uh many people have that. It's just they
many people have that. It's just they don't recognize it. Uh some people
don't recognize it. Uh some people have
have a very decisive experience
a very decisive experience and uh
and uh with great great clarity
with great great clarity that lives uh
that lives uh in the mind the body mind
in the mind the body mind an unreason unerasable
imprint >> [snorts]
>> [snorts] >> Other people
>> Other people have this experience
have this experience and then the mind apparently has not
and then the mind apparently has not been transformed.
been transformed. But eventually
But eventually this experience comes back back back and
this experience comes back back back and glimpse after glimpses.
glimpse after glimpses. uh that which matters in a sense, but
uh that which matters in a sense, but ultimately nothing matters. But um
ultimately nothing matters. But um because even those who had this
because even those who had this life
life changing experience
changing experience uh
uh they can come back to life as usual and
they can come back to life as usual and to misery
to misery for a while.
for a while. they need to get some process whereby
they need to get some process whereby they get kind stable in this inner
they get kind stable in this inner peace.
peace. Uh and the ones who had a seemingly
Uh and the ones who had a seemingly fleeting glimpse can also glimpse after
fleeting glimpse can also glimpse after glimpse ultimately reach the same
glimpse ultimately reach the same ordinary apparently ordinary uh wisdom.
ordinary apparently ordinary uh wisdom. You know, ordinary
You know, ordinary being without
being without uh without fear, without being
uh without fear, without being optimistic,
optimistic, be being um happy with their with their
be being um happy with their with their life. No, no regrets.
life. No, no regrets. Uh
Uh happy with happy campers, you see. And
happy with happy campers, you see. And uh
so >> but what it's like if you if you had to
>> but what it's like if you if you had to describe sort of the best experience
describe sort of the best experience that people could have a view
that people could have a view how does it feel? Does it feel good?
how does it feel? Does it feel good? Does it feel bad? Does it feel strange?
Does it feel bad? Does it feel strange? You you disappear as a person. How does
You you disappear as a person. How does what is like
what is like it's
it's >> it's it's very hard to describe. Okay.
>> it's it's very hard to describe. Okay. Let's for me it was the [snorts]
Let's for me it was the [snorts] experience of absolute happiness,
experience of absolute happiness, love, splendor,
love, splendor, immortality
uh and before that you see for instance
and before that you see for instance when I was thinking of happiness
when I was thinking of happiness I was thinking always in terms of you
I was thinking always in terms of you know like when when you asked what's
know like when when you asked what's your level of pain from one to from zero
your level of pain from one to from zero to 10. Right? So I was
to 10. Right? So I was when I was thinking of happiness, I was
when I was thinking of happiness, I was thinking, okay, this one is a six, this
thinking, okay, this one is a six, this one is a three, this one is a -4,
one is a three, this one is a -4, right?
right? But the maximum was 10,
But the maximum was 10, right? In other words, 10. The maximum
right? In other words, 10. The maximum happiness was in reference to nine. It
happiness was in reference to nine. It was one notch above nine, right? And two
was one notch above nine, right? And two notch above above eight.
But when I with this experience, it was different. It was infinite. And that's
different. It was infinite. And that's that was a big surprise. It was that was
that was a big surprise. It was that was I call I call it absolute.
I call I call it absolute. >> No conditions. There is nothing above.
>> No conditions. There is nothing above. That's the point. I mean there is
That's the point. I mean there is nothing that could ever be above that. I
nothing that could ever be above that. I mean you can have some drugs and have an
mean you can have some drugs and have an experience an apparent happiness out of
experience an apparent happiness out of the ordinary, right? But
the ordinary, right? But you can always be open that a different
you can always be open that a different drug or something else will create
drug or something else will create something above that. But then the s the
something above that. But then the s the surprising thing for me was there's
surprising thing for me was there's nothing above that one. the absolute
nothing above that one. the absolute quality of love, of happiness, of
quality of love, of happiness, of beauty, of
beauty, of >> Yeah. some people describe it that um
>> Yeah. some people describe it that um it's feels like your your heart has been
it's feels like your your heart has been ripped open and there is just so much
ripped open and there is just so much love, so much emotion that you can't
love, so much emotion that you can't bear it. It's just they start crying
bear it. It's just they start crying because you know the body you know
because you know the body you know reacts to it this this way. So these are
reacts to it this this way. So these are some accounts I heard but I was
some accounts I heard but I was wondering yours seem to be more more you
wondering yours seem to be more more you know intellectual maybe maybe I'm wrong
