Let's start with a game. Six words. I'm
going to ask you which one do you remember?
remember?
Okay. Seamless transition. Charging
pitbull. Musly Irishman better way. Leg
of lamb. Which ones you got?
Irishman, pitbull, leg of lamb. You
remembered the ones which you can
visualize. You have these three rules.
Can I visualize it? Can I falsify it?
Can nobody else say this? So, you get
three nos. You've probably written a lot
of rubbish. You get three yeses. You're
on to something. Why should people learn
copyrightiting? It's number one skill in
marketing. Write copy that can't be copied.
copied.
This one's one of the most famous lines
of all time.
They're instantly communicating what it
is by showing what it isn't. Exactly.
That's exactly it. So, when you're
writing copy, how do you know that
something is going to instantly resonate?
resonate?
Let me give you this test. One
Mississippi, two Mississippi. You get it?
it?
Harry Dry is the first person that I
call whenever I need help with
copyrightiting. And the reason is that
he's not just good at it, but he's
really good at explaining at it,
teaching what he does. I mean, you'll
see the guy has frameworks for
everything. My favorite one is these
three questions that he asks whenever he
writes or reviews copy, and he's going
to talk about that here. But we got to
talk about the elephant in the room, and
it's copyrightiting. It's sort of a
smelly industry, right? I always think
of huers and fraudsters on Twitter who
are just trying to game your psychology
with whatever deceptive trick they have
up their sleeve. This is the man
himself, Harry Dry.
I know that you have these three rules
that you apply to every sentence. I do.
What are they? I do. Can I visualize it?
Can I falsify it? Can nobody else say
this? So, you get free nos. You've
probably written a lot of rubbish. You
get free yeses. You're on to something.
I'll give you two examples of what not
to do, what not to do. So, I saw an ad
on the way here. Don't just get a job.
Change an entire industry. There's a
recruitment company. Um, now if I said
to you, change an industry. You close
your eyes. Can Can you Can you Can you
see that? No.
No.
Can you falsify that? Falsify able to be
proved. True or false?
Uh, can you can nobody else say it? No.
I could start a recruitment company
tomorrow and write, "Don't just get a
job. Change an entire industry." Um, now
let me tell you how ambush does all
three. New Balance worn by supermodels
in London and dads in Ohio.
I think that is so good. It's so good.
So if you if you close your eyes, can
you visualize the supermodel in London,
the dad in Ohio with a barbecue pair of
New Balance on? You can. Can you falsify
it? It's true. Like supermodels have
worn New Balance. Dads in Ohio do wear
It's true. And can nobody else say it?
Well, no. because a load of uh dads in
Ohio aren't going Prada and a load of
supermodels aren't really wearing
Reebok. Like it's it's bespoke to New
Balance. It's something they can only
say. So that's those are three rules.
Now I want to go through them like one
by one with you. Um rule one, can I can
I visualize it? So let's start with a
game. Why does this matter? If if you
can't if you can't visualize it, you
won't remember it. Lisa Cron says, um,
"If I can't see it, it's not there yet."
So, I'm going to read you six six words
and tell you which ones I'm going to ask
you which ones you remember. Um,
seamless transition, charging pitbull,
musly Irishman, better way, leg of lamb.
Which ones you got?
Irishman, pitbull, leg of lamb.
Irishman, pitbull, leg of lamb.
I don't even remember the other three.
So, what I'm talking about here is the
Did I get it right? You got it. Yeah,
there's no right or wrong. Wait, what
I'm talking about here is the difference
between concrete and abstract. you
remembered the ones which you can
visualize. You can see the Irishman. You
can see the pitbull coming at you. You
can't see a better way. So, this is
concrete. This is abstract. What
abstract is is it's intangible. You
can't drop it on your foot. If you try
and drop a better way on your foot, it
just fades away. But if you try and drop
um a musly Irishman on your foot, you
know, it hurts. Um how do you do this?
So, how do you how do you go from from
abstract to concrete? The best way I
found is to zoom in on the words. So,
what I like to do, I get a sheet of
paper and I draw a line down the left
hand side. At the top, I'll write
abstract. At the bottom, I'll write
concrete. I'll write I'll write the word
at the top. Um, and I'll just rewrite it
and rewrite it and ask myself what like
what do I actually mean here? What am I
actually saying? Until I end up with a
concrete object. So here you could have
written not very good worn by pretty
people in big cities
and old people
in non- big cities but instead pretty
people I can't I guess I can kind of see
that but a supermodel absolutely
everyone can see a supermodel
in London. Oh man that's sexy you know
big supermodel London and then dads in
Ohio. Now, that's funny because also the
juxtaposition of these two makes me
laugh. So, another example of this, like
right on the money, is you might come to
me with an app idea. You might say,
"Hey, Harry, I got I got an app I want
to share with you. It's about regaining
fitness." So, I what I do is I go
through that little zoomin test we did.
You write regain at the top. And I'd
say, "Right, what do you mean by
regain?" And you might say, "All right,
it's it's for getting people off the
couch who've been sitting on the couch
for the last 6 months." And I'd say,
"What do you mean by fitness?" And you
might like, what type of fitness? You
might say running. How far? Five. 5K. So
now we've got from Regain Fitness, we've
got from from getting up off the couch
um to running 5K. Couch to 5K. Funny
enough, that's the name of the most um
the most downloaded, the most popular
fitness program of all time. Really? And
this wasn't made by Nike
or Adidas. It was made by a Boston TV
producer, but it stuck because it was
good. Um, rule two, can I falsify it?
All right. Why does it why does this
work? Like, why does why do we like
stuff which is falsifiable? I I came up
with this tip and I thought about it
myself and what I what I concluded was
um when you write a sentence which is
true or false, it's like as a writer,
you're putting your head on the chopping
block. Um, it makes people sit up a
little bit in their seat. Our ears prick
up. This is true or false. Galileo
um got got sentenced to 10 years house
arrest by the Romans cuz he said that
the earth spins around the sun. They
didn't like it. If Galileo said um the
earth has a harmonious connection with a
celestial object, they have said
Galileo, go down the pub, have a beer.
Um how do you do this? How do you how do
you write copy that's falsifiable? Well,
you want to write a sentence which is
true or which is false. Best tip I've
seen for this is um deep in a Reddit
thread um by now deleted account. So I
can't I can't give any credit. I'd like
to. And it says um you can't talk. You
can only point. Picture your best friend
um right now who's single. Okay.
And I want you to try and set him up on
a blind date with somebody.
Okay. Now we're going to go two versions
of this. the first version, you got to
you got to set them up, but you're not
allowed to you're not allowed to um
describe them with anything that's
objectively true or false. So, you have
to write subjectively. So, you could say
he's good-looking, he's intelligent,
whatever. What would you how would you
describe this friend?
Good family,
great values.
Good family, great values.
Smart, he's clever, hilarious,
hilarious,
he's funny,
funny. You're talking funny guy. Now,
I'm a woman right now. Now, if I'm a
woman or a man, I would I would say um
you know, yeah, you're just you're just
saying stuff like, is he is he actually
funny? Now, free run. Now, um describe
this friend, your your single friend,
but you're only allowed to say things
which are are true or which are false.
So, instead of say you said um good
values, you could say um why why does he
have good values? Point to something.
So, for good-looking, I'd be like,
"Looks like Ryan Gosling."
6 foot2. Looks like Ryan Gosling. Exactly.
Exactly.
Have you seen the meme? Uh,
I haven't seen the meme.
There's like this popular meme going
around that all these chicks, it's like
they hold these signs. It's like 65
works in finance trust fund.
That's exactly it. That's exactly it.
Reads on the tube. You know, it's not If
you say someone's intelligent, it's
like, "All right, whatever." Does he
read? He reads on the tube. That's true
or false. Um, that's what I mean by
falsifiable. And you is it able to be
proved true or false? Now what's funny?
So what is the lesson with the pointing?
This is what I still don't understand.
When I say when I say don't talk, only
point. Let's say I'm trying to sell you
gold. All right. I might say gold, you
know, it's a great investment, David.
You want to get some gold? You know,
that stuff's never going to go out of
fashion. I'm just talking right now. Or
I could point at the graph of gold for
the last 50 years and it'd be like just
going one way. I could say like when
there was the last financial crash, what
happened to gold? Just point. I just
point to the graph. So you just point at
stuff. That's a better way. It basically
gets you off the adjective trail. So,
this is interesting. So, say we're going
to advertise for gold and all I can do
is I can just point. What I could do is
I would point at a beautiful castle that
is clearly majestic. I could point at a
family's gold stash and we could show
them feeling very comfortable be secure
because they have so much gold. I could
point at the chart of gold. And now what
I'm doing is I'm getting things that are
concrete. They're visual. their fossil file.
file.
You could point at Warren Buffett and
say, "How much gold does Warren Buffett
have in his portfolio?"
That's a reason to buy gold perhaps. I
don't know. You have to research stuff.
You can't just like This takes This
takes work. That's why it's better.
Finally, final test. Can nobody else say
it? Um Jim, I think his name is Jim Derky.
Derky.
Um never write an ad a competitor can sign.
sign.
Why I like can nobody else say it is it
kind of forces you to look a little bit
deeper at what you're at what you're
selling. Volkswagen had this ad back in
the back in the day. Your car has five
numbers on the speedometer. Volvo Volvo
has six. One could get the impression
that the people who made your car lack a
little confidence. No one else can say
that. The only way of saying it is you
got to get in the Volvo, see how many
See how many dials there are on the
speedometer. So, it's visual. The visual
aligns with the text. Nobody else can
say it. Super simple. Differentiates
what you're doing. That's why it works.
Exactly. It's true. It's falsifiable.
It's true.
There's a lot of people I talked to and
they're like, "No, copywriting's for
chumps. I'm not going to learn that.
It's not really important." But you are
the first person I met who changed my
mind on that. Why should people learn
copyrightiting? Why should people learn
copyrighting? Um, all right. In this
hand, I got a Snickers bar. Imagine uh
Snickers, you're not you when you're
hungry. Bestselling chocolate bar in the
world. In this hand, I got a Fuse bar
only to be eaten wearing rubber sold
shoes. Fuse discontinued in 2006. Um,
both bars look the same. They taste the
same, but one's the bestselling bar in
the world, and one, you know, it didn't
get into the mind. And why I like this
example is because, um, startups,
businesses are like these two bars. You
strip away the rapper, you strip away
the copy, you strip away the branding.
Um, they do kind of the same thing. Like
Samsung, Apple. All right. Um, they both
got an app store. They both take great
pictures, but what what phone you got? Apple.
Apple.
You got an Apple. 17 out of out of 20
American teenagers choose Apple. Why do
they choose Apple? Because to quote
Oglev, um, we don't choose the whiskey,
we choose the image. Um, let me give you
one more story about why I think you
should learn copyrighting. Um, I uh, my
uncle's from Reading, Reading, England,
and they had a striker. I used to watch
a lot of football at the Modeski
Stadium, Reading's Old Ground. and they
had this striker up front called Dave
Kitson and he wasn't very good and we'd
all kind of laugh at Kitson despite
supporting Reading Ginger Guy. He was
very noticeable. Then I went to school
in Portsmouth. Um Kitson at this point
got transferred from Reading to
Portsmouth. All my friends at school, a
lot of them were Pompy fans. Portsouth
Pompy. Uh and we saw Kitson run around
Fatton Park. Ginger hair again not
scoring very many goals but you know he
he put in a shift. Kitson ended up with
one England cap. So, you've played for
England, good player, but you know,
innocuous career. Now, um I'd like to
tell you that Dave Kitson wrote a book
about football, and it sold more copies
than David Beckham, Frank Lampard,
Steven Gerrard, and Michael Owen put
together. How did How did he do that?
How did Kitson do that? Um, I think it's
an example of a um a real foundational
copyrighting principle, which is what
can I do that no one else is doing that
people care about.
So Kitson had a bad career. What what
could he do? Like what could Kitson give
you? All these guys have wrote these
books about, you know, their career
playing for England. Kitson didn't have
any of that. So what can I do? Well,
I've been in the Premier League.
Kitson's been in the in the Premier
League. So Kitson thought, well, I'll
I'll, you know, tell some home troops
about the Premier League. I'll say I
I'll do an undercover on the Premier
League. I'll tell you this player's got
a gambling addiction. I'll tell you this
player's this this is what it's like
when England go abroad to Greece and
everyone's going out. How many drinks
are people drinking? He did like a big
behind the scenes. Beckham skulls,
whatever. They they don't want to do
that. People care about it. But the
problem then is it's a book by David
Kitson. Like no one wants to read a book
by David Kitson. So instead he he um he
he signed it as the secret footballer.
Uh that's that's copyrightiting. It's
it's doing more with with words. Like
you Kitson's product is is objectively
so much worse than David Beckham's. But
just by positioning it, just by a little
bit of storytelling, he could outsell
him. So
what do I have here? These are Why don't
you explain them? What are these? I
printed a bunch of these as back as a
backdrop for my for my course. You
invited me on and I thought, what? Let's
Let's instead of putting stuff on the
screen all the time, let's um have some
vinyl mounted favorite ads.
I'm just going to find random stuff and
we'll talk about them. Okay, tell me
about this. They don't write songs
about Volvos.
What's going on here? Why do you like
this one?
It's an ad by Corvette, I think. Um why
I like that. Six words. Um a lot of
white space. I like this because firstly
we got an enemy. All right, so we talked
about enemy before. They're selling the
Corvette by having a little cheap shot
Volvo. But secondly, what can Corvette
say about the Corvette that no other car
can? They can say that Post Malone sings
about Corvettes. They can say all these
I don't all these American country
singers love a song about a Corvette.
It's romantic. Like what what's good
about this and I think what's good about
all copyrightiting is you get it
instantly. There's um there's an
intuitive test with copywriting.
Sometimes you know more in 2 seconds
than you know in 2 hours.
Let let me give you this test. I can't
remember who who came up with it, but
it's called One Mississippi, Two
Mississippi. So, I got this ad. I show
it to you. One Mississippi, two
Mississippi. You get it? Oh, let's try that.
that.
You get it? That's how That's how it
works. If it takes longer than 2
seconds, you
know what? You printed this one out. I
did not get it. I did one Mississippi,
two Mississippi, 8,000 Mississippi, and
I did not get it. What is going on in
this ad? You're going to need a smaller
cabinet. So, I had to crop these to fit
them on mounted um mounted covers. So,
I've missed off the logo. You're going
to need a smaller cabinet. Um Athletic
Greens, you know what does Athletic
Greens replace? Positioning 101. What do
you replace? That to me says this does
everything in one go. So, you know that
what's the pain point? The pain point is
morning routine. I want vitamin A,
vitamin D, vitamin C. I want some zinc.
I want some whatever you're going to
need. You don't need a cabinet. You use
allin-one athletic greens. It's clean.
You think that sometimes a risk that you
have to take when you're writing ads is
that you're going to do something that
really relates to your in crowd, but
then the out crowd won't get it. Cuz I
don't get this, but I don't take
vitamins like that. So maybe that's why
I don't get it. Yeah. I think I think if
everyone gets it, you're possibly doing
something wrong. Like I I think that's I
think that's not a problem at all. I
tell you what, what's funny is you don't
get it, but you talked about it.
Like I don't think it's a problem if you
don't get it. You might you might text
that to a friend like, "What is this? I
don't get it. That's fine. It's got your
attention. What's worse is something
which is just like so a bad way of doing
the ad. You're going to need a smaller
cabinet might be um
one drink to replace them all. You know,
it's been said you want to write
something that no one said before.
That's what I think. Can nobody else say
this? What else you got for me?
This one rips. This one's one of the
most famous lines of all time. A
thousand songs in your pocket. Why? Why
do you like it? You tell me. You know
what? We need to show these two
together. Yeah. Because this is why I
like it so much. Okay, these Mac and PC
ads, this is the problem with PC ads
where they were all about features and
it was all about, oh, 4 GB, whatever,
you know, this is how fast it went.
Apple said, no, actually none of that
stuff matters. All that matters. And I
still remember being in fifth grade. I
had this little blue iPod Nano. It was
the most valuable thing I'd ever had. My
first album I ever bought was
Confessions by Usher and it was on there
and I could listen to all these songs
and that's what made this such a big deal.
deal.
It's also a metaphor. It's an example of
monomy. What's muttony?
What's I don't know what that is.
Matonomy is where a shorthand term
stands in for a literal term. It's very
technical, but I don't mind technical.
So, what actually they're saying there
what they should say is 1,000 songs in
your media player. That's the That's
what it literally is. But they've
substituted the literal word media
player for um a standing word, a visual
word, pocket. It doesn't that sentence
doesn't literally make sense. Like you
haven't literally got 1,000 songs in
your pocket. You've got 1,000 songs in
your media player. But you'd rather say
pocket cuz it's it's more visual. It's
more surprising. It's more punchy.
One of the great ads.
I Well, you you should judge an ad by
how much it sells. Everyone had an iPod.
Everyone walked around with an iPod. You
look at the Vision Pro.
I went straight to the Apple store.
You went like look at the Vision Pro. I
don't know what how they sold it, but no
one bought one. That's that's why
copyrightiting matters. I I'm sure I'm
sure if Steve Jobs was around, the
Vision Pro would have been a little bit
different. It would have been positioned
a little bit differently. They'd have
had some some, you know, great line and
they'd have sold a few, but they didn't.
You read this one.
The sport sedan for people who inherited
brains instead of wealth.
I I love this cuz who said this? Um, I'm
paraphrasing someone here, but they said
if you if you can ever make your
customer feel like they're making a
smart decision, you're doing something
right. So, they're making you think, you
know, God, if you want to be clever with
your money, you're going to buy one of
these sedans cuz you you've got everyone
wants to be the person with brains and
not and not wealth. And this is kind of
a lame car.
You know what I mean, right? Like, look
at that car. No one pulls up in that car
and says, "Oh, that's a right. It's
nothing like the Corvette that we saw
earlier." It's
so what they're doing is they're saying,
"You know what? We don't have the
coolest car in the world."
Now, what is it that we can do to sell
this thing? Ah, okay. This is for people
who inherited brains instead of wealth.
Because the people with the brains, they
know that, oh, if I'm going to drop a
load of cash on a Ferrari, spending a4
million on an object that I could crash
and break at any times. Okay, you know
what? This is the smart decision. You're
right. Bang on. I've never read The
Economist, management traininee, aged 42.
42.
What's going on here?
It's a classic. That's that's one of the
most famous of all time. Um, and it sold
a lot of economists. I I think um
there's a quote by Neil French. He says
um most people think in any ad you need
four elements. You need a header, a
subheader, um a picture, and a logo. And
what Neil French says is if you can do
an ad with just one of those elements,
you're on to a winner. So there's no
there's no subheader. Well, that may be
management training, but there's no
picture. There's no logo. The logo is
the I've never read The Economist.
That's why it doesn't look like an
advert. Adverts look when they've got,
you know, that logo in the bottom right
picture logo. It doesn't look like an
ad. So, you read it.
Two other things. The color is economist
red, which people know.
And then the other thing is you like
look at the the visual hierarchy. You
read I've never read The Economist.
Wait, what?
Management trainee age 42. Oh, now we
have a story. Best thing also about the
ad is like it's basically what's the
what's if if you if you strip away the
saying it well part. What are they
actually saying? They're just saying
that the economist like is is a good
newspaper. You want to be smart. It's
not that interesting. How can you make 2
months salary last forever? The diamond
engagement ring. Talking about this one.
God. Um
this is the classic. So this this came
after um what was the bloody ad about a
diamond is forever. So this was this was
the follow-up for a diamond is forever.
I think it was Mary Gerity 1948 for
Debeers. They sold diamonds. Um at the
time wedding rings were sapphire,
rubies, emeralds. How do you create
demand for diamonds? You you say when's
it for? It's for marriage. Um how can
you make two months salary last forever?
I like I love that line because um of
the justosition. Like how how can you
make two months salary last forever? You
you can't. It's 2 months of your salary.
It's forever. You know, it shouldn't
work. There's contrast there. Um the
answer, the diamond engagement ring. I
think now 85% of engagement rings are
diamonds. And this campaign by Mary for
Debeers, uh the diamond company is the
reason why.
All right. So, you sit down. You're now
okay. I'm Harry. I'm going to sit down.
I'm write some copy. Tell me, how does
your process then unfold from there?
I you start I start with what am I
trying to do? What am I trying to do
here? There's a quote by John I'm gonna
say Hen Henley, forgive me, John. The
current attitude of the consumer is the
starting point and the desired attitude
is the finish line. You can't start a
race in the middle. So when I when I sit
down and write, I'm thinking, what's the
current attitude? What's the desired
attitude? That's point A. That's point
B. It's my job to get the customer from
A to B. Think picture two telephone
poles. You got you got the telephone
poles. Now we got to string the wire.
So, how do I how do I string the wire?
Well, there's three pieces here. First
one, piece one, who you're talking to?
Who who who am I talking to? Is it
someone at the tube looking at their
phone? Is it someone who's been on my
app for 6 months, but hasn't upgraded
yet, but they know the problem? So, let
me give you a funny example who you're
talking to. Uh, Snapchat took out a
Super Bowl ad this year, 77 million.
And um and the ad was more Snapchat,
less social media or something like
that. The average age of a Super Bowl
viewer is 39.
So you think a 39year-old
um picturing my dad here, like my dad's
a little bit older, but who's just
worked out Facebook, who's got six
friends left in his life, is going to
use Snapchat. If you use Snapchat at 39,
you're a pedophile.
They spent 7 million on that because
they didn't think who are we talking to.
One more example. I'm in St. arrives um
last year and doing the coffee run and
there's a couple of shops. There's a
couple of cafes um and getting the
coffee on the first day and the first
cafe has this big um menu outside like a
blown up huge menu and it's got like all
the prices of different lattes and
whatever and 17 different quissons we
do. And the second one just says coffee
and pastry equals £5 and that's the
yellow canary it was called. like
everyone's queuing outside the yellow
canary and no one's at the other one.
And I thought I thought why is this?
Well, it's cuz who are you talking to?
You're talking to someone tourist just
walking down the street as you do when
you visit a new place, not really paying
attention, kind of taking in the sights.
What's your job? Form follows function.
So, what do you want to do? You want to
tell them I need a cup of coffee. You
don't need to tell them that follow us
on Instagram and like communicate all
this stuff about the price of this is
this and whatever. Who you're talking
to? Say you're walking down. What's
going on? You're on a walk and you're
maybe going to the beach and when you
see that sign, you're looking out of the
corner of your eye and you need
something that it's not even one
Mississippi, two Mississippi. It's
instant. But the problem is when you're
sitting down to write copy, you're
spending hours in the mode of thinking.
So, when you're writing copy, how do you
know that something is going to
instantly resonate when you don't have
the privilege of seeing something in the
way that the consumer is going to read it?
it?
I I I think that's where we go wrong. I
think this is Oglev, what Oggo said, but
like if you take out a billboard ad, you
want to pin it up on Photoshop, not as
the ad you made in Photoshop where it's
just that and it's not competing against
anything. You want to do that and then
you take that ad and you pull it into a
picture where you've got seven ads
around it, people walking by. Does this
actually grab my attention or not? So, I
like putting things in reality. Like you
got to another way of doing this is um
if if I write a newsletter for example,
I write the newsletter in just as the
reader will see it. So, I don't write it
on a Google doc and then take it in. I
write it I write it on directly onto
ConvertKit so you see it just as I'm
writing it. And I like that because like
I don't trust when I drag it on a line
might spill to three lines or it might
be four lines. I don't like that. I want
to see it just as the reader reads it.
That's my answer. So piece one, who
you're talking to. Piece two. Piece two,
you got to have something to say. We we
touched on this. We touched on this a
little bit earlier. So piece two. So you
got to have something to say. That means
that you need to be building things for
more than the money that's going to come
out on the other side. you need to be
building things because of something you
believe or a vision that you have or
something that you think is wrong with
the world. That makes it a heck of a lot
easier. Dave Gart said to me once, "Why
did you start this business in the first
place?" Like, why? I run marketing
examples. Why do you start marketing
examples? Why am I teaching a
copyrighting course? Well, I think that
every marketer should learn to write.
That's what every marketer should learn.
Copyrightiting. It's the number one
skill in marketing. I I I believe
something. What do you believe? I think
Andy Rascin um Zura Zura was the
subscription economy idea. All the
investors in Zura weren't buying into it
because they like believed in the
product. They just believed in the idea
that everything was going to be
subscription. It can show up in the most
mundane of things like how I write. The
reason that I started the show is
because there were so many podcasts
where people talk about what they wrote.
They talk about oh I wrote a history
book. Let me talk about history. Hey, I
wrote a finance book. Let me show about
finance. I was like what? Why is there
no podcast that just talks about how
they wrote the book? Doesn't exist. And
I would really like that. And beyond
that, this is what my career is about.
Writing is important. Learning to write
in all the ways that we do it stinks.
It's boring. It's super academic. It's
very leftrained. There isn't a sense of
vitality in it. And I think that's
ridiculous. So for me, those are the
things that I'm like, ah, I don't want
that. So I'm going to go counter
position and build the opposite. So So
market was exactly that. I I didn't have
a career in marketing when I started
that website, but I was just fed up of
trying to learn marketing and it will be
two pages on theory. I wanted just give
give me examples. I learn I learn
personally from examples and a lot of
other people do. That was my why. Like I
wanted it you same with you. Um peace free.
free.
Peace free. Peace free said it well. So
this is what most people think
copyrighting is. Most people you ask
people what's copyrighting they'll say
um they'll say saying it well. Well,
let's say ride and rhythmically,
visually, persuasively,
um, and visually. So, Hinge,
the dating app designed to be deleted.
That's in my opinion near like near
perfect. Um, near perfect. Yeah, it's
you can't beat it. But that's something
to say. So, the brief for Hinge would be
something like I'm sure the writer got
something like we're making an app and
it's for people who want long-term
relationships. It's for people who fed
up of dating apps. That's not that
catchy. So it's the writer's job to turn
that into something memorable. And here
like the most obvious how do you make it
memorable alliteration ddd data app
designed to be deleted. Also again
juxtaposition the same things crop up
like who makes an app that wants to be
deleted you know like no one. That's
also what it implies. Oh I I'll meet
somebody and I'll live happily ever
after. I'll delete the app. This is the
app that's designed so that I can
finally fall in love which is what
people are looking for. It's right copy
that can't be copied. No other app can
say that now. Hen Jones owns that
phrase. And we're talking about how a
great ad can tell a story. You can look
at this image and there is so much
cultural scaffolding that it's yeah
resting on top of. So when they released
this they I didn't like it. They
released this with a a mascot called
Heni and I hated it. So, when I actually
did that uh a couple a couple of days
ago, I got rid of this mascot. I didn't
like it. And I went on their website and
this they had this beautiful image which
I just thought told the story way
better. Um
Oh, so you made this one?
I I wouldn't say I made it, but I got
rid of the the damn mascot cuz I I
didn't I I didn't think someone, you
know, Dualingo has a mascot. Duolingo is
silly. It's funny. Hinge isn't silly or
funny. It's like it's real. It's about
trying to, you know, get married,
right? Um, yeah. There you go. Piece
one, piece two, piece three. Who am I
talking to? You got to have something to
say and you got to say it. Well, that's
copyrightiting. So, I want to show you
this for real. I want to show you what
I'm what how an ad comes together. So, I
I'm making a course on copyrightiting.
Uh, this is an ad I wrote probably for
the landing page. Um, probably a little
bit too much going on for a billboard,
but I want to give you the process cuz
it's like there's a lot to it. Um, it's
probably about 20 rewrites. Are you
looking at the same thing as me now?
Yeah, sir. Let's do it. So, the
difference between 1% and 2% is not just
1%, it's 100%. I saw this like four
years ago on um on Twitter. And I
thought it's a great argument for
copyrightiting. Um because if you can
increase landing page conversions from
1% to 2%. That's not too hard. Like I
could do that. You could you could do
that. It's not too hard for most landing
pages. You've literally doubled growth.
So, I loved it. I was like, there's
something here that that's the seed of
an idea. I just wrote it on the sheet. I
was like, "All right, maybe I can do
something with this."
Mhm. Um, Luke Sullivan, great copyright.
We're talking about conflict earlier. He
just tells me now he what Luke Sullivan
tells me, just draw a line down the
middle of the page and write any two
conflicts that come to mind. So on the
right, we got increased landing page
conversions from 1% to 2%. That was like
the idea from the tweet. What's the
what's what's an obvious conflict there?
Well, it's spending twice as much on
ads. That's like the parallel of that
one or two. Explain what you mean by
conflict. How I look at a conflict is
just like it could be red and blue. It
could be Christianity and atheism. It
could be white shirt, red jumper. Like
it doesn't have to be complicated.
There's three types of enemy. If you
want to be really technical, you got
ABC. A different approaches, different
way of solving the same problem. B
beliefs. I believe this, you believe
this. C competitors. So that would be
Apple and Mac, what we looked at
earlier. Um here it's a bit of a before
and after. Like I don't take this too
seriously, honestly. just draw a line
and just write stuff that comes to mind
that are opposites
that are opposites. So, I had that idea.
I was like, "All right, we need to set
this up a little bit. So, how can I
write a header? Want to grow twice as
fast? You've got two choices. Spend
twice as much on ads or increase land
and page conversions from 1% to 2%. Now,
at this point, this is why I feel like
what what you take in as a rider is so
important because a couple years ago, uh
I I saw this Volkswagen um ad, which I
loved. How to how to prepare your car
for winter. Volkswagen ordinary car. And
with the ordinary car to prepare it for
winter, you've got to drain the
radiator, flush thoroughly, check rubber
hose, refill, blah blah blah. With the
Volkswagen, all you got to do is change
the oil. I love the layout. And what
they're trying to show is just the
simplicity, the ease. They're trying to
show simplicity. They're trying to show
ease. But again, enemy, and I actually
more than anything, I just like how this
ad's laid out. I love the layout. So, I
thought, how can I turn what I've got,
like my seed of an idea, into this? So,
I rewrite it again for the for the upth
time. Um, here I drop in two placeholder
images. So, just forget the images, but
I just thought like I like that that
you've got the Volkswagen and the
ordinary car image. So, I wanted to like
placeholders just so I could work around
that. And then I copied the squares, the
checklist, and then I couldn't just have
one on the left. So, I wrote, "Want to
grow twice as fast? You have two
choices. Raise twice the cash, hire
twice the staff, spend twice as much on
ads, or learn to write and increase
landing page conversions from 1% to 2%."
starting to take a little bit of shape.
And where are you at now? What do you
like about this? What don't you like
about this? Critique this and just give
me a sense of I Well, at the time,
David, at the time I wrote this, I was
like, you know, there's something here.
I like this. But it gets, in my in my
opinion, it gets like 200% better. And I
think that's a like a lesson. Like you
can like something and you just keep going
going
until you literally can't you bleed the
ink dry. Well, also there's a moment in
the creative process where you have an
idea and then you're like, I know that
this is going to be good. What I have
now is fine, but you have this inner
knowing that what you're going to make
is great so long as you live inside of
those iterations. And I feel like that's
where you are right now. You got to you
Yeah, you've got to like I think this is
about talking about standards. Like I
wouldn't sign this ad off right now. I'm
just I wasn't happy with it, but I just
thought I'm going to keep walking down
this blind alley to see if it's blind or
not. and it ended up not being blind. So
I rewrite it again.
This time what's missing? I thought like
look at the vaults we're going to add.
It has headings. So I needed to make
this simpler. So want to grow twice as
fast. You got two choices. You got the
corporate way or the copyrightiting way.
Set it up like that. Um and then also I
like that there was more boxes on the
Volkswagen. So, I added raise twice the
cash, hire twice the staff, spend twice
as much on ads, cross both your fingers,
or learn to write and increase landing
page conversions from 1% to 2%. Now, at
this point, something was like really
irritating me. Uh, I could not put this
out with that line being two lines on
the right hand side. Learn to write and
increase landing page conversions with
1% to 2%. It was just too long. It was
messy. So, I thought I got to I got to
make that one line like by hook or by
crook. Um, easy to remove. Cross out
landing page, learn to write, and
increase conversions from 1% to 2%. And
then I think, how can I make that even
shorter? I can get rid of learn to write
and put that as the header. That ends up
being learn copyrightiting. So now I've
got learn to write as a header, increase
conversions from 1% to 2%. This creates
a problem. This is how messy the whole
process is. This creates a problem. I
like parallelism in the headings and the
corporate way as option A and learn to
write as option B. There's no symmetry
between them. Whereas the the corporate
way, the copyrighting way that worked.
So I've created a problem and I've
solved a solving a problem. One forward,
one back. So then I think, all right, I
need to write something like a similar
ilk to learn to write. So I just start
spitballing. Go fool Zuckerberg. Scroll
down. Roll Monopoly dice. Hidden hope.
Spaghetti at war. These aren't good, but
I'm just trying to go go. And what
you're just doing is you're getting
ideas out without even judging them
really. It's like the edge shear and tap
thing from way back. You just write one
idea without judging it. You write
another one, you're getting the dirty
water out the tap.
So, you're just flowing the tap. It's
clogged up at the start with a little
bit of mud, a little bit of dirty water,
but you just flow. And after a couple of
minutes, a couple of rewrites, it will
start being clean. You just want to
trust it gets clean. So, I'm just doing
that right now. Spaghetti at Wool. And I
end up with Fro Money and Prey. Now, at
this point, um I don't know what's good
and what's not cuz I've been I've been
um I've been writing this now for
probably I don't know 2 3 hours and I
just I don't know. I can't I can't work
out if it's good or not. So, I text a
few friends. Go on. One thing that's
really revealing you just said I've been
writing this for 2 to three hours, but
design is a crucial component of your
writing process. This is writing design
visual with images and visual with words
working together in harmony. So, so I
couldn't if I was doing this on a Word
doc, I couldn't I couldn't lay I
couldn't do it like this. This is a v
copy. I Jason said this on on your
podcast, but copy and design are one of
the same. Like I can't do them
differently. You did it in Figma. I did
it in Figma. I never do anything. I
never do anything which is not on the
tool I'm using ever. So if I'm doing
the, as I said, if I do the newsletter,
I write the newsletter in the
newsletter. It's weird. If I do an ad,
I'll do it directly into Figma. If I do
a landing page directly and if I do a
billboard, I'll get it up amongst all
the other billboards and I'll put it in
like where it is. I don't like doing
stuff not where it is. So, I'm confused
at this point and um I like getting
feedback. So, I sent this to a bunch of
people who I, you know, respect their
taste. Feedback comes in. Definitely
prefer Go Fool Zuckerberg over the
corporate way, blah blah blah. But the
consensus was throw money and pray being
the header on the left worked worked
best. So, I settle on that. Now, I had
an idea like what if I do a really long
list like Volkswagen because I like the
dep I like depth. It didn't work. So, I
then reverted back. At this point, it's
kind of there. Um, but the last thing I
do with most ads is I I try and add a
little bit of design to it, little bit
more design. Easiest thing to do here
was just bold. So, back up a second.
Raise twice the cash, hire twice the
staff, spend twice as much on ads, cross
both your fingers. There's rhythm in
those lines. The repetition of twice and
both. I want to pull that out. Header,
want to grow twice as fast. I highlight
twice as fast. And I add a little line,
increase conversions from 1% to 2%,
that's twice as many, just in case
anyone didn't understand that the
difference between one and two is 100,
which is where I got the whole idea from
in the first place. Finally, I got these
two illustrations, which are just
placeholders. So, I I go on a go on a
Fiverr and I pay someone called Kenzia
to make me illustrations. She starts off
with this guy praying and a load of a
load of um notes falling. I gave her the
oil once as references cuz that was the
style. And then she gives me this pen
and I say to her like I want it to be
the same person on both of them. So do
it like do you mind doing it again? I
think I I paid her a little bit more.
And then she gives me this guy praying
but he's smiling. And then the second
one has got this random like um messy
for in a speech bubble which I I didn't
like. So I said, "Look, Kenzie, throw
money and pray. These are great. I
really like them. But throw money and
pray. The guy's pissed at this point.
Like, he's an idiot. He's throwing money
and praying. He's he's we don't like
this guy. And the guy who's writing, uh,
turn that into a typewriter and add a
light bulb. Um, and there you go. Add
one. Want to grow twice as fast? You
have two choices. Throw money and prey,
raise twice the cash, hide twice the
staff, spend twice as much on ads, cross
both your fingers, or learn
copyrightiting. Increase conversions
from 1% to 2%. That's twice as many. And
that's what I ended up with. Let me
synthesize a few things here. So the
first thing this is I just realized what
I love about the way that you approach
this craft. It is that you when most
people think about copyrightiting they
think of it like a fishbait.
We're going to get the consumer to spend
money. We're going to trick them. That's
not what you're doing here. What you're
doing here, this is the art of simple
communication. This is what I'm trying
to do is I'm trying to say something and
then in one image I'm trying to capture
attention, tell a story and there's
you've actually made it delightful. Like
this is beautiful in terms of what has
happened and that is the way that you
approach copyrightiting. It is the art
of simple communication. It's like an
art project the way that you do it. So
this is is copyrighting is arguing. Is
it just an argument? It's like what's
the best argument for learning
copyrightiting? Well, you got two
choices. You could throw money at, you
know, a cliche and hope that it works
and it probably won't because we've seen
Asana or you can learn this and you can
increase conversions from 1% to 2%.
Also, what I like about this is it's not
a big claim. I'm not being like learn
copyright and be a millionaire. No, I'm
saying just like you can improve
conversions from 1% to 2%. You can
probably that's believable. It's not
it's it's sincere. This ad's really s
like I believe I believe this.
I believe it. And then there's a few
other things that stuck out. First of
all, we started off with that quote from
visualized value that you can increase
from 1% to 2%. So you had this little C
and you said, I can do something with
that. So you started with that and you
built and built and built off of that.
That was your first piece of
inspiration. Then your second piece of
inspiration was the the Volkswagen ad.
So now you have these two pieces of
inspiration. One in terms of the copy,
one in terms of the visual, the way that
the information is going to be organized
and how it's the hierarchy that is going
to show up. So both of those things and
then what you do is you're designing in
Figma as much as you're writing in
Figma. So design and writing are working
together and what you're doing is you're
using both of them to amplify the other
and then you're tweaking and tweaking
and tweaking until
the copy comes alive tells a story that
once again one Mississippi to
Mississippi instant. That's it. That was
it was um this was probably 2 days and
25 rewrites. And I'm not trying to make
out like it's like that's you can do it.
You can do it. There's no right way of
doing it. But I I rarely get from I
can't I couldn't write that as it as it
is on the screen right now. You can't
just say go write that. Like the only
way in my opinion you can make this ad
is if you build it up piece by piece by
piece by piece by piece. That's how it worked.
worked.
Quick break from the episode because I
got to tell you about right of passage.
The training that we do is rigorous, but
I promise promise that it won't have the
sludge of your fifth grade English
class. You know how I roll. I like
energy and enthusiasm. And because we've
now had more than 2,000 students, the
program's gotten pretty dialed in. And
like this episode, we're going to dive
into the mechanics of writing. And then
as a student, you're going to get line
by line edits on everything that you
write so that you can ship work that you
are excited about and just fired up to
share. And if you want to join us, go to
write apassage.com.
Okay, back to the episode.
All right, Harry, I like this ad from
you. Here's what it says. Marketers,
you'll spend 22,000 hours of your career
writing. Spend two learning how to do it
well. Copyrightiting is arguing. The
conclusion is to buy your product. I
thought to myself like, how long does a
marketer spend writing each day? That's
was my seed. That was my seed, my idea.
How long does this market spend writing?
Well, they write emails, they write
social media posts, they might write
landing page, they might write an ad. Uh
they'll write in Slack. Um they'll sell,
you know, about 4 hours a day. 4 hours a
day times by 300 days a year times by a
30-year career. You end up with give or
take 22,000 hours. I think originally it
was 20,000, but I wrote 22,000
because I wanted the parallelism word of
the day really with spend two learning
how to do it well. M
um so I had the 22 and the two. It's
deliberately done. It's deliberately
done that way. Let me pop in here. I got
to add something. The other thing that I
like about this is the context is
important here. You're Oh, learn
copywriting. That sounds so boring. 2
hours. I'm so busy. I'm so busy. I do
not have time for that to do 2 hours
with you to learn copyrightiting. I got
too much going on. But what you've done
is you've changed the frame here where
rather than costing me time, you're
saving me time because now you're saying
you're going to spend 22,000 hours
writing in your career and spend just 2
hours just 2 hours learning to write.
Oh, that's so easy. It's funny if you
said, you know, you spend 4 hours a day
writing, nowhere near as good. So, you
got to you got to you can make a you can
make a small number bigger, which I've
done here. 4 hours a day just by
expanding the time frame. That's the
technical side. Um, yeah, one of my favorites.
favorites.
Tell me about this Tesla ad that you
made. Better truck than an F-150, faster
than a Porsche 911. I took that from
Elon. Elon Musk tweeted a line along
those lines and I liked it and I um
stuck it on an ad. Why I like this is
cuz when the Cybertruck came out like no
one knew what it was. So, how do you
make a product make sense? You compare
it to products we know which make you
you compare it. So we all know what an
F50 is like. It's a brilliant truck. But
apparently this is what better than an
F50, faster than a 911. Cybert truck's
complicated. Explain it to me so I get
it. Based on what I've learned from you,
there's two things I would do to improve
this. Better. I would make more
concrete. Better. Okay. Give me tougher.
Give me sturdier. Give me a word like
that that's a little bit stronger. You
also get to get rid of a word that way.
Tougher than an F50. Gets rid of the
word truck. It's shorter. Shorter.
Shorter is better in copy most of the time.
time.
Well, it's not just shorter, but then
you get the parallel.
Stronger than an F-150. Faster than a
Porsche 911. Sounds better to me than
what you have right now.
Yeah. I I like tougher than F50, faster
than 911. It's great. You That's why you
should buy. Also, what we said, can
nobody else say this? What other car can
say they're tougher than F50, faster
than 911? There's no there's no car
which exists which can say that.
Read that one. This from the ad professor.
professor.
The ad professor, my old friend. It
takes 3.1 seconds to read this ad the
same time it takes a Model S to go from
0 to 60. Why do you like it? Well, it's falsifiable.
falsifiable.
It breaks the fourth wall. So, what it's
giving me is it's telling me how fast
that Tesla car is, which I really like.
And it's also saying, "Okay,
interesting. Takes 3.1 seconds." That
also feels really precise. And I feel
like the ad is talking to me. So there's
just multiple layers there. Yeah. And
then the way that the image is done, it
just looks fast. I like it as well
because it's D. I think I got this from
Dave Ghart. First line, second line. He
got this from Joe Joe Sugarman. What I
mean by that is you read the first line,
it takes 3.1 seconds to read this ad.
You're like, what's going on? You you
you need to read that gets you to the
second line, which is the same time it
takes a Model S to go from 0 to 60. Um,
there you go. You completed the ad.
What do you think of facts, David? Do
you like facts?
They're for fine.
They're fine. You're facts are fine.
You're ambivalent towards facts.
Sort of dry.
I I love facts. What?
What?
I love facts. What do you mean? So, in
this episode, I start what? Asana Asana
spent 345 millions of pounds each year
on sales and marketing. That's a fact.
Jack Carowak lived on the road for 7
years. He wrote on the road in three
weeks. Fact. Give me a fact. Give me a
fact. Behind a fact, there's a story. I
like a fact cuz it's true. There's 350
million Americans. fact. See, there's
something in that. Now, there's 350
million Americans. Is that interesting?
Genuinely, is that interesting? 350
millions. I don't think it's interesting.
interesting.
No. So, help me understand what you're
saying. When I think of a fact, I just
think of something that is true about
the world, but almost by definition
uninteresting. But it seems like you're
trying to say something else. I'm trying
to say when you say a fact, it it
guarantees that you say something. Most
people when they open their mouths, they
say nothing. They say wallpaper,
word-shaped air, but balloon smoke. A
fact is you're giving me something here.
This is true. Where did this come from?
So 350 Americans. I don't think that's I
don't think that's interesting. So you
got to like you you got to work with a
fact. So it's something like this. It's
something like this. So I have a pet
peeve where I don't like flying from the
east coast to London. And the fact
behind this is the flight's only 6
hours. So the problem is it's too short
for you to get sleep and it's too long
for it to be a quick and easy flight. So
it's just in this middle ground. Whereas
it's actually way easier to do a 10 to
12 hour flight. So, Austin, where I
live, San Francisco, way better flight.
So, what you're saying is what that fact
is doing is it's grounding what I'm
saying. It's making it real. And then
inside that fact, then I can tell a
story from it. Facts. Yeah. That's
that's I'm saying facts. Facts. Facts.
If in doubt, give me a fact. That's what
I'm saying. I think that also the thing
with a fact we don't understand with a
fact. You start with a fact. You can
turn it into something else, but start
with a fact. It's true. Then, then make
something with it. Fact doesn't have to
be numerical. I'll give you a fact. When
you're in a when you're in McDonald's or
Duncan, if I want to be all American,
when I'm in Duncan, um, they give you
tomato ketchup, but often what they give
you with the ketchup, um, is they they
take a Hines bottle and they pour in the
factory ketchup to the Hines bottle.
That's a fact. I've seen it happen. It
was on the news. Fact. You can make an
ad from that. The woman pours the Hines,
sorry, the ketchup into the Hind. She
hands it to the consumer. Even when it's
not Hines, it's Hines. So that that that
ad like it's not a fact. Even when it's
hid, it's hinds, but it comes from one.
I think so much good stuff just comes
from facts. So inside of this though is
an implicit critique of how most people
communicate. And what you're saying is
people don't communicate with enough
facts. They're trying to give you like
an egg. But what happens is it comes out
all scrambled, all messy. Give me like
that that egg shape. That's what that's
what you want. The euros are on. All
right. So I listen to Alan Shira the
football. Yeah. And he just he opens his
mouth says, "Why was England bad today?"
and he says, "God, they're just not
playing well. It's all wrong. Southgate
this. Southgate that. Give me a fact,
Gareth. Tell me that they're playing
Kieran Trippier at left back when he's a
right back. That's a fact." Okay. Now,
this is a great example. I'll use a golf
analogy cuz it's one that I know a lot.
So, all the time you'll be watching the
announcers and they'll say, "Oh, Bryson
Dashambo, Tiger Woods. Tiger Woods just
didn't want it bad enough today. Tiger
Woods looked a little sloppy on the
driving range and he kind of didn't go
out as well." No, no, no, no, no, no,
no. That's not good sports announcing.
Good sports announcing is saying Tiger
Woods usually averages 11 fairways per
round. Today he averaged seven. He made
up for that with an extra 30% greens in
regulation and he was three times more
likely to make a one putt today than he
normally is. Because of that, this is
what I sensed in the round. Here's how
it impacted the momentum and all that.
Now that we're rooted in fact, there is
so much more weight and credibility in
what the announcer is saying. And I love
the word that you said, precision. There
is such a lack of precision in what
people say. So, so um all well all right
modern writing does not consist in
picking out words for the sake of their
meaning. You use a fact is precise. So
the point is as a writer as a
communicator you should have some facts
in your arsenal about whatever it is
that you're doing.
Don't say inequality. The bad way of
phrasing. Don't you think it's a bit
unequal? That's an adjective. Turn it
into a reality.
Right. Show me a graph. Show me the difference.
difference.
Yeah. Start with a fact. Work work from
there. All right, that was fun. What I
want to do is I want to switch gears. I
want to just talk about your newsletter.
Your newsletter has
easily more than 100,000 subscribers.
But it's not the number of subscribers
that is worth talking about. It's the
engagement. You once shared this
screenshot. It's a while ago. I don't
know if you remember this. And you
shared the replies that you get for a
newsletter. I've never seen a newsletter
get as much engagement as yours. Not once.
once.
Thank you very much. It means a lot,
David, coming from you. I mean, I think
I can't remember that. I think I
marketed Exumbles is back or marketed is
not back. And I um Yeah, it's it was it
was crazy. It was really crazy. I think
that when you see 100,000 people, you
know, you forget that they're all
actually somebody. 100,000. It's
actually it's actually well you know 50
50% open it but it's actually it's
actually somebody and um no it's why I
write it because people people seem to
like it.
How do you write it? How do you actually
sit down to write the dang thing?
I mean it's tricky and honestly every
newsletter genuinely is uh I'm not
trying to sound pretentious here or
above my station. Every newsletter is
tough. Like I I it's always a struggle
to to get something good. Um, how I
write it, I I think what's a newsletter?
Why is it different to a blog? Firstly,
like why is it different to a to a
tweet? Uh, and Hanley has this great
line. It's it's it's less about the news
and it's more about the letter. So, when
I start to write it, I think, right,
it's a letter. I like to start with a
bit with an introduction and conclusion.
Um, how I do this is time, place, what's
going on in my in my life. Time, place.
So, this is what is is a common in
writing. I think JK Roland started the
Chamber of Secrets with um something
like it was um not for the first time an
argument had broken out at over
breakfast at number four private drive.
So from that you know it's breakfast
they're arguing time place what's going
on. That's how I start. So I write I I
look outside the window see what's
happening. So I think the last one I did
was um live from London weather update
trees shuttering majestic hail. It wrote
itself. I just looked out the window.
hail was really falling. You can't get
that from Twitter. Now, that's the
little, you know, bit at the start. But
the actual meat of a newsletter, I think
there's free things I do, which
not sure too many other people do.
Firstly, you get five things in a
newsletter. Six things. You'll get five
examples. Um, it's dense. Secondly,
um, secondly, we talked about this a lot
today, but there's conflict in pretty
much every single example. Why why I
like conflict? This could be as simple
as um before and after. It could be
here's the problem, here's the solution.
It could be here's how they do it.
Here's how they do it. Now, why why I
like that um is because we we as human
beings, we remember stuff relatively.
So, I want to give you pickle juice. I
want to give you orange juice. The
pickle juice makes the makes the orange
juice taste a little bit sweeter and the
orange juice makes the pickle juice a
bit sourer. If I'm writing, say about
about Loom's positioning, I did one
recently about Lum's positioning. I
don't start with Loom's positioning
good. I start with how's here's how
every single other screen recorder
positions their product. Here's how Loom
do it. What was the difference? They
started as a screen recorder tool. Uh
way back they were just in the screen
recorder bucket. They just sitting in
the screen recorder bucket. And then
they had an idea. The world's gone
remote, but remote communication sucks.
Remote communication sucks. Like so here
we go. Introducing async video
messaging. That's the category
out of what was a screen recorder.
Everyone else is saying, "Yeah, we're
we're an easier to use screen recorder."
They're just saying like the way the way
remote we talk remotely sucks. Like no
one likes Zoom these long Zoom calls.
Meetings are too long. It's emails are
too impersonal. That's Loom's
positioning. And they they now I think
they're worth more than that whole
screen recorder bucket combined. That's positioning.
positioning.
Um so I like conflict in in in a
newsletter. I really I really like
introducing some kind of conflict. The
third thing, I only noticed this the
other day. I was reading back previous
issues and since March 2021,
I haven't written a paragraph longer
than two lines. Now, I'm not saying
that's like good or bad to be clear. I'm
just saying it's idiosyncratic to
myself. Why I do this is three reasons.
Um, short paragraphs are like monkey
butts. They're easy to swing between.
So, if you're writing the newsletter,
you got to get real. Like, people read
it on the train. They're not that
focused. You got to help them swing.
Secondly, if I write a sentence which is
a paragraph which is three lines long,
there's a good chance I'm not explaining
myself as well as I as I should be or
could be. So, I'll I'll turn the three
lines. I'll look at it like, do we need
that word? Do we need that sentence? No.
Two lines. Finally,
I I like giving lines room to breathe. I
like writing to it, which is good, and
giving it room to breathe. Walk me
through this intro. Hey, it's Harry.
It's 3:47 a.m. I'm in the big smoke
alone. Laptop, green tea, looking at the
whiteboard like a dozy dog. Six words on
it. Five with lines through. Intro
glares at me. I glare back. The final
whorecrux. Sip some tea. Is this any
good? I don't know. My tea tastes cold.
I should press send. Go ahead.
Walk me through that. Why did you choose that?
that?
Where is this?
Top of the page.
Funny having me read that back. Harry.
Hey, it's Harry. It's 3:47. I'm in the
big smoke alone. Laptop, green tea,
looking at the whiteboard like a dozy
dog. Six words on it, five lines
through. Um, all right. Just quickly for
the reader, what I mean by that is in my
newsletter, there's always six things.
So, what I'm trying to say is that five
of them are finished. Intro glares back
at me. That's the only part I haven't
wrote. The fight is the final hawk crux.
Sip some tea. Is this any good in
italics? I don't know. My tea tastes
cold. I What? Beyond writing something
which is good or not, I I want it to
just feel like it's out the oven. That's
what I want. I It's fresh bread, warm to
touch. That's a quote from somebody I
can't remember, but I love it. So this
is it good or not? I don't know. But
it's it happened. I was I was in in the
big smoke meeting in London, some random
office in London at 3:47 with a green
tea questioning whether the words were
any good or not. I looked at my words
like god, is this good? I don't know,
but I got to send it. There's something
here that's showing up about the stuff
just writes itself. You just need to see
what's right in front of you right now.
The hail, the green tea, the fear that
you have, the six lines, all of this
stuff is there. And yeah,
I think what you're saying is a lot of
writers don't see what's right in front
of them.
I like it cuz it's not it's not
particularly clever. Like it's it's
actually boring.
What stands out from that example is
that the writing is so simple. Out of
everybody I read, I bet that your
sentences are the shortest sentences.
Number number one shortest. How do you
how do you write simply? That's that's
the question. It's not easy. I think the
first thing which I learned was that you
don't you don't write it simply straight
away. writing simply. What we're really
talking about here is rewriting. You
don't you can't write simply. You can
only rewrite simply really. So, how do
you rewrite? Well, you know, there's a
book on writing by Zinser, Elements of
Eloquence, Foresight. Like, if you want
to get into the weeds, those books are
great. So, I'll give you maybe a couple
of simple things. Um, first one, my
favorite, Kaplan's law of words. Um,
Kaplan's law of words. any words that
aren't working for you are working
against you. I I love Kaplan's law of
words so much. I invented Harry's law of
words, which is that you aren't taking
Kaplan's law of words seriously enough.
Um people people talk about Ryan simply.
I'm like your not simple. You can cross
stuff out. Kaplan's law of words is true
for words. It's also true for ideas.
Same thing like uh the strength of a of
an idea is inversely proportional to its
scope. This is why the word and on a
landing page is normally never a good
thing. We sell jeans and t-shirts and
socks and we we have dressing rooms. I
buy jeans from denim. We've got shorts
today, but I buy jeans from Hu Denim. We
make jeans. That's it. Do one thing.
Well, um
that's her tagline.
Yeah, we make jeans. Megan Marco, I
think gets stuff from there. You know,
dare I say the name, but Megan Markle
gets gets stuff from there. Um, the same
with album covers. Like you look at the
best album covers, Velvet Underground,
uh, The Banana by Warhole or Dark Side
of the Moon, The Prism.
It's exactly what I was thinking of.
New Dark Side of the Moon. What else?
Um, Bowie's got one of my favorite of
all time with The Lightning, Aladdin
Zane. He's also got one of the worst
reality, which is like seven disperate
images. Like, who knows what they are.
Yeah, it is a weird one.
Um, we talk about simple sentences
there, so I would talk about simple
paragraphs. a good paragraph.
It's like a maybe like a I say like a
burrito. Like you should be you should
you should be able to throw I should be
able I read a paragraph did I should be
able to throw it to you and you should
be able to catch it and it shouldn't
come apart in the air. What I'm talking
about here is sentences that don't look
awkwardly at each other but that add to
more than the sum of their parts. So a
test for this right is you got a you got
a paragraph you pull one sentence out. A
good paragraph should like be broken.
You should break it. If you could pull a
sentence out and it still works, the
sentence probably shouldn't have been in
there in the first place. Refer you to
Kaplan's law of words. Third thing I I
talk about when I'm talking about
writing simply, um I don't think it's
something I do, but I'll write a
sentence or a paragraph um for a
headline or whatever, and I'll I'll copy
and paste, I'll write it again. I'll try
and tweak something. I'll copy and
paste, I'll write it again. I'll copy
and paste, I'll write it again a
different way. I'll end up with like
four or five different versions of the
of the same paragraph in the editing
editing phase. And I wouldn't not sure
I'd recommend this because it's caused
me a lot of turmoil over the years, but I like it for a couple of reasons.
I like it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it just allows me to refine
Firstly, it just allows me to refine each time. But more importantly, it
each time. But more importantly, it allows me to be kind of terrible. Like a
allows me to be kind of terrible. Like a lot of those rewrites I will do are not
lot of those rewrites I will do are not good, but funny enough, the the freedom
good, but funny enough, the the freedom to do it wrong allows me to like
to do it wrong allows me to like actually be a bit different, try my own
actually be a bit different, try my own way, and do it right. when I show it to
way, and do it right. when I show it to my brother, he edits all my stuff. I'll
my brother, he edits all my stuff. I'll show this stuff to my brother and um um
show this stuff to my brother and um um originally I'd give him one paragraph to
originally I'd give him one paragraph to like look at. He'll just look at this
like look at. He'll just look at this one paragraph and his feedback would be
one paragraph and his feedback would be like I like it or I don't like it. It
like I like it or I don't like it. It was hard to get again I think more than
was hard to get again I think more than that. But when I show him I can show him
that. But when I show him I can show him three things, show him three paragraphs
three things, show him three paragraphs now and he can say that one's the best.
now and he can say that one's the best. That sentence is the best. Use that
That sentence is the best. Use that sentence but put it in that one. I get
sentence but put it in that one. I get so much better feedback when I can show
so much better feedback when I can show people versions of stuff. That's right.
people versions of stuff. That's right. And simply,
And simply, one of the things I've noticed in our
one of the things I've noticed in our conversation so far is you're very good
conversation so far is you're very good at dividing things into one, two, three,
at dividing things into one, two, three, four. Like really good at structuring.
four. Like really good at structuring. Is that something that you're pretty
Is that something that you're pretty intentional about? We've talked about
intentional about? We've talked about this. You love you love structure.
this. You love you love structure. I love structure.
I love structure. I love structure. How do I Yeah. I
I love structure. How do I Yeah. I I How do I I structure things, right?
I How do I I structure things, right? How I do that would be structuring is
How I do that would be structuring is just dividing lines and parallelism. So,
just dividing lines and parallelism. So, we talked about copyrighting at the
we talked about copyrighting at the start. How can I divide copyrighting
start. How can I divide copyrighting into something which was a bit more
into something which was a bit more easier to understand? Copyrighting is
easier to understand? Copyrighting is big. It's kind of scary. All right. Who
big. It's kind of scary. All right. Who are you talking to? What are you saying
are you talking to? What are you saying here? And how are you saying it? Those
here? And how are you saying it? Those those are the three buckets. I remember
those are the three buckets. I remember I I did a an like a little essay for you
I I did a an like a little essay for you a couple of months ago.
a couple of months ago. Yes.
Yes. It was um seven steps to 10,000 readers
It was um seven steps to 10,000 readers or something like that. So I was like,
or something like that. So I was like, how can I break this essay down into
how can I break this essay down into structure? How can I get the structure?
structure? How can I get the structure? And I wrote the line that the first step
And I wrote the line that the first step in getting 10,000 people to read your
in getting 10,000 people to read your work is to get 100 people to read your
work is to get 100 people to read your work. And I thought that's the
work. And I thought that's the structure. Part one, things that don't
structure. Part one, things that don't scale, 100 readers. Part two, momentum,
scale, 100 readers. Part two, momentum, next 9,900. That's it. Part one, part
next 9,900. That's it. Part one, part two, dividing lines and parallelism.
two, dividing lines and parallelism. There's a paper, I think it was
There's a paper, I think it was published in 1971. It's called That's
published in 1971. It's called That's interesting. And the whole paper is just
interesting. And the whole paper is just a formula for different ways to frame an
a formula for different ways to frame an idea to make it interesting. And the
idea to make it interesting. And the structure that stuck with me was take
structure that stuck with me was take multiple things, take two things that
multiple things, take two things that people think are different, actually
people think are different, actually show Heather one. Take one thing and
show Heather one. Take one thing and actually show Heather two. And a lot of
actually show Heather two. And a lot of what you're doing with structure, what
what you're doing with structure, what you just did there is, okay, you want to
you just did there is, okay, you want to get some readers. Well, actually, you
get some readers. Well, actually, you think that's one thing. No, it's
think that's one thing. No, it's actually two things. First, you need to
actually two things. First, you need to get your first 100 readers. Then you got
get your first 100 readers. Then you got to get the rest of your readers. Now you
to get the rest of your readers. Now you have structure. It's like a book without
have structure. It's like a book without chapters. Imagine that. It's long. It's
chapters. Imagine that. It's long. It's heavy. Like chapters are the structure
heavy. Like chapters are the structure of the book. Same with a course. You
of the book. Same with a course. You take 17 videos. It's like how do these
take 17 videos. It's like how do these how do these link together? Give me
how do these link together? Give me something cohesive. Give me something I
something cohesive. Give me something I can hold on to. That's structure.
can hold on to. That's structure. Another hairy rule. And this is
Another hairy rule. And this is something that I value too. Many years
something that I value too. Many years ago, I had lunch with a mentor,
ago, I had lunch with a mentor, multi-billionaire, and he basically
multi-billionaire, and he basically looked at me and he said, "David,
looked at me and he said, "David, there's two things that if you do, you
there's two things that if you do, you will be insanely successful." He said,
will be insanely successful." He said, "The first thing is learn how to have a
"The first thing is learn how to have a high quality bar. And the second thing
high quality bar. And the second thing is never let the high quality bar fall."
is never let the high quality bar fall." And he said, "That sounds so simple."
And he said, "That sounds so simple." And we're sitting at lunch right now.
And we're sitting at lunch right now. You're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's
You're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's going to be hard." He's like, "No, it's
going to be hard." He's like, "No, it's going to be hard. There's going to be
going to be hard. There's going to be people who are angry. There's going to
people who are angry. There's going to be people who are anxious. There's going
be people who are anxious. There's going to be people who are pissed off. There
to be people who are pissed off. There will be people who stop working with you
will be people who stop working with you because of this. But if you have a high
because of this. But if you have a high quality bar and you maintain it, great
quality bar and you maintain it, great things will happen for you. And I see a
things will happen for you. And I see a lot of the same thing that happens in
lot of the same thing that happens in your work with with standards. Like you
your work with with standards. Like you have these supremely high standards in
have these supremely high standards in everything that you do. Where did that
everything that you do. Where did that come from?
come from? I love what the mentor said. I think
I love what the mentor said. I think your standards are your work.
your standards are your work. I think that's a really simple line, but
I think that's a really simple line, but a really true one. Like your work is
a really true one. Like your work is nothing but your standards. Nine out of
nothing but your standards. Nine out of 10 plus it goes out. If not, you won't
10 plus it goes out. If not, you won't see it.
see it. Tell me about something you said a few
Tell me about something you said a few minutes ago about knowing what good
minutes ago about knowing what good looks like. What is that feeling like
looks like. What is that feeling like when you're in the presence of something
when you're in the presence of something of quality that you've created? How do
of quality that you've created? How do you know? I think it's when you you go
you know? I think it's when you you go for a walk around the garden. You go you
for a walk around the garden. You go you take a little walk around the garden.
take a little walk around the garden. come back and you're like, I can't take
come back and you're like, I can't take anything away from that. Like, that's as
anything away from that. Like, that's as clean as it's ever going to get. That
clean as it's ever going to get. That works. And you just sort of smile. Like,
works. And you just sort of smile. Like, I got it. Um, yeah, it's mainly when
I got it. Um, yeah, it's mainly when when it just I I read it, it one line
when it just I I read it, it one line flows to the next. I can't remove
flows to the next. I can't remove anything. It's good. Um, like worn by
anything. It's good. Um, like worn by supermodels in London, dad's in Ohio.
supermodels in London, dad's in Ohio. You can't add a word to that ad and make
You can't add a word to that ad and make it any better. You can't take away a
it any better. You can't take away a word and make it any better. It just is.
word and make it any better. It just is. Tell me more about the conflict. How
Tell me more about the conflict. How when you're writing, how do you create
when you're writing, how do you create conflict? What are the things to avoid?
conflict? What are the things to avoid? What are the things to go for?
What are the things to go for? I'm looking I'm I'm basically trying to
I'm looking I'm I'm basically trying to hinge something around the word but in
hinge something around the word but in in a story without actually writing the
in a story without actually writing the word butt. So, you don't want to keep
word butt. So, you don't want to keep going but this happened but this
going but this happened but this happened. It wants to be like, you know,
happened. It wants to be like, you know, natural. So, I don't know. Let me go off
natural. So, I don't know. Let me go off the top of my head. I I'll tell you how
the top of my head. I I'll tell you how I got here today with some butts in it.
I got here today with some butts in it. How I got here today, I you know, I'm
How I got here today, I you know, I'm telling it boringly. I got on the train.
telling it boringly. I got on the train. I got the train here and I had a coffee
I got the train here and I had a coffee and we started talking. But a bit
and we started talking. But a bit conflict, I'd say I woke up at 8:52 a.m.
conflict, I'd say I woke up at 8:52 a.m. and um I started looking for clothes to
and um I started looking for clothes to wear today and my mom runs up the stairs
wear today and my mom runs up the stairs and she tells me, "Harry, you can you
and she tells me, "Harry, you can you cannot do this interview in little blue
cannot do this interview in little blue in those blue shorts you had at the
in those blue shorts you had at the start." And I'd say, "Mom, just I'm
start." And I'd say, "Mom, just I'm stressed. All right, I'm doing this
stressed. All right, I'm doing this thing. I want to, you know, practice."
thing. I want to, you know, practice." And she's like, "I'm not letting you get
And she's like, "I'm not letting you get out of the house unless you change
out of the house unless you change shorts." I got these on now. I I I get
shorts." I got these on now. I I I get here to do the interview and you say
here to do the interview and you say Harry can you can you why you got longer
Harry can you can you why you got longer trousers on like give me some tr like I
trousers on like give me some tr like I haven't brought trousers with me. You
haven't brought trousers with me. You just you just you just put in you know
just you just you just put in you know that's how you create conflict. You just
that's how you create conflict. You just go but butt. What went wrong? That's a
go but butt. What went wrong? That's a butt. That's conflict.
butt. That's conflict. I got to ask how does AI show up in all
I got to ask how does AI show up in all of this for you? Is AI part of your
of this for you? Is AI part of your writing? And the thing that we've spoken
writing? And the thing that we've spoken about is that
about is that AI or not, what matters is having really
AI or not, what matters is having really good taste.
good taste. Yeah. I I John Long, great quote.
Yeah. I I John Long, great quote. Switching from um pens to typewriters
Switching from um pens to typewriters didn't make the work better. Switching
didn't make the work better. Switching from typewriters to laptops didn't make
from typewriters to laptops didn't make the work better. Switching from film to
the work better. Switching from film to digital didn't make the work better. AI
digital didn't make the work better. AI is a tool. It's a tool. It's only as
is a tool. It's a tool. It's only as good as your taste. I saw somebody on
good as your taste. I saw somebody on Twitter the other day. Photoshop's got
Twitter the other day. Photoshop's got this new thing like generative fill.
this new thing like generative fill. Basically, you take a picture and you
Basically, you take a picture and you can like zoom out and it will generate
can like zoom out and it will generate the background. And talking about album
the background. And talking about album covers, Beatles Abbey Road, the four
covers, Beatles Abbey Road, the four guys walking along the zebra crossing.
guys walking along the zebra crossing. Someone zooms out of this picture,
Someone zooms out of this picture, generative fills it, and it's got like
generative fills it, and it's got like a, you know, a big balloon in the air
a, you know, a big balloon in the air now and there's loads more trees and
now and there's loads more trees and it's completely not cropped. And they
it's completely not cropped. And they write, um, AI revolutionizing the
write, um, AI revolutionizing the photography process. And I'm thinking,
photography process. And I'm thinking, God, like, God help you. Ogulvie, uh,
God, like, God help you. Ogulvie, uh, ad, uh, at 60 mph,
ad, uh, at 60 mph, the loudest noise coming from the
the loudest noise coming from the Rolls-Royce is the sound of an electric
Rolls-Royce is the sound of an electric clock. He pulls that out of the motor
clock. He pulls that out of the motor magazine.
magazine. Increased Rolls-Royce sales by 50%. Why
Increased Rolls-Royce sales by 50%. Why does he pull it out the motor magazine?
does he pull it out the motor magazine? He's got taste. He puts it as the
He's got taste. He puts it as the headline. That's conviction. Another
headline. That's conviction. Another thing AI doesn't have. It can't it
thing AI doesn't have. It can't it doesn't believe something. And and also
doesn't believe something. And and also experience. Why can why can Oglev write
experience. Why can why can Oglev write that? It's because he sat in the car or
that? It's because he sat in the car or the motor magazine individual sat in the
the motor magazine individual sat in the car. They drove it at 60 mph and the
car. They drove it at 60 mph and the loudest noise you could hear was the
loudest noise you could hear was the electric clock. Taste, conviction,
electric clock. Taste, conviction, experience. Picowski worked as a postman
experience. Picowski worked as a postman for 20 years and he wrote post office.
for 20 years and he wrote post office. Jack Carowak lived on the road for um
Jack Carowak lived on the road for um seven years and he wrote on the road in
seven years and he wrote on the road in three weeks. Michael Lewis spent forever
three weeks. Michael Lewis spent forever working on Wall Street. Waited and
working on Wall Street. Waited and waited and then was able to write The
waited and then was able to write The Big Short.
Big Short. I don't think it's not a coincidence, is
I don't think it's not a coincidence, is it? Sylvia Sylvia Blle, I've mentioned
it? Sylvia Sylvia Blle, I've mentioned her a few times today. Um, she worked as
her a few times today. Um, she worked as an intern at a New York fashion
an intern at a New York fashion magazine. Her character Esther
magazine. Her character Esther Greenwood, guess what? Disillusioned
Greenwood, guess what? Disillusioned intern at a New York fashion magazine.
intern at a New York fashion magazine. If you asked me to write about New York
If you asked me to write about New York City, um, I'd never been. So I would
City, um, I'd never been. So I would just say uh yellow taxis city that never
just say uh yellow taxis city that never sleeps. I'm gumming together long strips
sleeps. I'm gumming together long strips of words already set in order by
of words already set in order by somebody else. And unfortunately that's
somebody else. And unfortunately that's quite literally what what what AI does.
quite literally what what what AI does. It's predictive.
It's predictive. It's predictive. You're making a few
It's predictive. You're making a few points with experience. The first point
points with experience. The first point that you're making is the David Oglevie
that you're making is the David Oglevie which is go out and do things and do
which is go out and do things and do things and be aware. And it is out of
things and be aware. And it is out of that awareness that you're going to
that awareness that you're going to notice things and the things that you
notice things and the things that you notice those will lead to good writing.
notice those will lead to good writing. So you're talking about the car that's
So you're talking about the car that's going fast. The loudest thing you can
going fast. The loudest thing you can hear is the ticking clock. That is the
hear is the ticking clock. That is the first kind of experience that you're
first kind of experience that you're talking about. The second kind is the
talking about. The second kind is the Bukowski kind where you work in
Bukowski kind where you work in something for a long time and you're
something for a long time and you're building experience that is a kind of
building experience that is a kind of expertise year after year after year
expertise year after year after year after year. And those are very different
after year. And those are very different kinds of experience. What's writing? You
kinds of experience. What's writing? You see something, you believe something,
see something, you believe something, you write about it. Um any any kind of
you write about it. Um any any kind of robot can't see anything and it doesn't
robot can't see anything and it doesn't believe anything. You ask AI what what
believe anything. You ask AI what what do you believe? It says I am a robot. I
do you believe? It says I am a robot. I don't believe I don't believe anything.
don't believe I don't believe anything. So how are you going to tell me
So how are you going to tell me something surprising? A good writer
something surprising? A good writer arranges words and ideas in a way that
arranges words and ideas in a way that haven't been laid out before. Any kind
haven't been laid out before. Any kind of robot lays them out in a fashion
of robot lays them out in a fashion which is quite literally from all the
which is quite literally from all the stuff which has been laid out before.
stuff which has been laid out before. And I'm not saying it's not it's not
And I'm not saying it's not it's not useful. Like it's a it's a great
useful. Like it's a it's a great research tool and we don't know what's
research tool and we don't know what's going to happen. But I think if you
going to happen. But I think if you think it will take your job or you think
think it will take your job or you think it's going to do a better job than you,
it's going to do a better job than you, it probably will. But I don't think it
it probably will. But I don't think it will. I don't think it can do what I do.
will. I don't think it can do what I do. It seems like a lot of what you're
It seems like a lot of what you're trying to do is collect excellence.
trying to do is collect excellence. Surround yourself with all different
Surround yourself with all different kinds of excellence and then use those
kinds of excellence and then use those inspirations to basically set the
inspirations to basically set the standard for the work that you produce.
standard for the work that you produce. Um, it's like it's in the everyday like
Um, it's like it's in the everyday like I don't know. You get up, you read, you
I don't know. You get up, you read, you you get up, you're on TikTok, you get
you get up, you're on TikTok, you get that whole video after video. It slows
that whole video after video. It slows you down. You wake up, you sit in a bit
you down. You wake up, you sit in a bit of silence. You don't talk to people,
of silence. You don't talk to people, you collect your thoughts. Silence and
you collect your thoughts. Silence and action. That's what I run on. Oh, yeah.
action. That's what I run on. Oh, yeah. You do these writing retreats with
You do these writing retreats with Cultural Tutor and you don't even talk
Cultural Tutor and you don't even talk till dinner, right?
till dinner, right? I always think it's so funny when people
I always think it's so funny when people call him Cultural Tutor. Wait, I
call him Cultural Tutor. Wait, I That's his name. He's the cultural
That's his name. He's the cultural tutor. His name is Nashi. His name is
tutor. His name is Nashi. His name is the cultural tutor on his British birth
the cultural tutor on his British birth certificate. That's Plato is his face as
certificate. That's Plato is his face as well.
well. I just call him CT even cultural tutor.
I just call him CT even cultural tutor. Yeah. Know we go we go we asked for was
Yeah. Know we go we go we asked for was in Connistan. He was trying to finish
in Connistan. He was trying to finish his book and uh you wake up thing is we
his book and uh you wake up thing is we used to do these and we'd talk um on
used to do these and we'd talk um on these and I'd be like look man do you
these and I'd be like look man do you want a coffee? And she'll be like you
want a coffee? And she'll be like you know he's put on maybe maybe not. You
know he's put on maybe maybe not. You know I'll come with you. He's talking
know I'll come with you. He's talking about his girlfriend. He's talking about
about his girlfriend. He's talking about his favorite. I'm like like I've lost my
his favorite. I'm like like I've lost my flow here. When we sit, we don't talk
flow here. When we sit, we don't talk till 5 or 6:00 when we have dinner and
till 5 or 6:00 when we have dinner and there's an intensity to it. There's a
there's an intensity to it. There's a real like, God, I'm doing something
real like, God, I'm doing something here. If I'm if I wake up and I'm on
here. If I'm if I wake up and I'm on TikTok, which I do a lot first thing in
TikTok, which I do a lot first thing in the morning or Instagram, whatever it
the morning or Instagram, whatever it is, my day's drudge. It's slow. I'm not
is, my day's drudge. It's slow. I'm not up for it. If I wake up, I'm like, "God,
up for it. If I wake up, I'm like, "God, I'm not talking to my own today. I'm
I'm not talking to my own today. I'm going to write something brilliant
going to write something brilliant today. Take a walk around the park in
today. Take a walk around the park in silence. No earphones on." I give myself
silence. No earphones on." I give myself a better shot. Um, I think I'm I don't
a better shot. Um, I think I'm I don't know. I said what I said, David. I've
know. I said what I said, David. I've said what I said. It was a pleasure.
said what I said. It was a pleasure. You said what you just said.
You said what you just said. I've said what I said. I'm a huge fan of
I've said what I said. I'm a huge fan of the show and genuinely I should say it's
the show and genuinely I should say it's really um genuinely a privilege to come
really um genuinely a privilege to come on. I've listen to pretty much every
on. I've listen to pretty much every episode.
episode. Thanks, man.
Thanks, man. I'm a big fan. Um there you go. Those
I'm a big fan. Um there you go. Those one.
