The discussion focuses on the anticipated policy shifts and regulatory developments in the digital asset and cryptocurrency space over the next two to four years, emphasizing a move away from "regulation by enforcement" towards clearer frameworks and a more supportive environment for innovation.
Mind Map
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good afternoon everybody it's uh it's
nice to see a lot of familiar faces here
and thank you very much to Ando and Nate
and the whole team for having us here
this is is a great event and an
impressive environment as well um let me
just start by saying I'm Brett Redford I
am a panorama financial markets I ran
the division of trading and markets
under the last Trump Administration um
under Jay Clayton I worked very closely
with uh Bill Hinman who was the director
of corporate finance bill is uh really
uh he's now an adviser to a16z and a
senior advisor at Simpson Thatcher um we
also have with us uh more from the uh
now commissioner summer meringer um from
the cftc it's great to have her here
she's been there since March 2022 um and
has consistently advocated for Clear
regulatory Frameworks for the uh for
digital assets in crypto and of course
Christian Carlo the former chair of the
CF TC he's also uh known as crypto dad
author of the book crypto dad now
published in Japanese everybody should
know and uh senior counsel also and
co-chair of wilky far's digital Works
practice um so with that in mind let's
dive in we are here to talk about a lot
of what we expect we might see in the
next two to four years with respect to
policy in digital assets and in uh in
crypto generally um it's a very
interesting time as you you all know we
have a change of administration we have
substantial influence uh coming in from
the crypto Lobby um great expectations
for significant you know additional
Clarity and and breakthroughs in crypto
policy but I think with that being said
there's also a great awareness that acts
of Congress don't come quickly you know
they take a long time to implement
they're subject to a lot of negotiation
and compromise and they rarely deliver
everything that is hoped for
um and certainly also the cftc and the
ICC are limited by existing statutes um
there's a lot of litigation that they've
been facing and that some people might
have liked the way they work that work
uh in the last few years but that can
also cut back and in the other way now
um and so it's going to be tough and
we're trying to have today a discussion
of kind of a a clear informed and sober
view of what we think we can expect with
all of this environment in place I think
um the first thing that we want to talk
about is all of the enforcement activ
that's been out there we all know that
there's been a lot of litigation
regulation by enforcement we're excited
to turn the page from that uh that
particular environment and so I think
the first question I want to throw out
to our panelists here is you know
understanding that none of you can speak
to any of the specific cases that are
out there and that wouldn't really be
appropriate certainly for acting
commissioner um at a high level I'm
curious what do you think happens with
all this litigation that is out there do
you think cases are going to be dropped
do you think that they're going to be
settled or do you think that we're
actually going to see crypto policy
being formed in the process of that
settlement uh process and maybe um I'll
kind of open it up to to see who wants
to go first on
that I'll start if you want um well I
think it is a new day on the enforcement
front in conversations we're having with
people in the building it looks like a
lot of the enforcement staff have been
uh reassigned from the crypto
enforcement team to other position
um still largely in enforcement um the
tone in the building is one of it won't
be regulation by enforcement it will be
you know there'll still be cases where
there's fraud there's still a lot of you
know things across all the uh industries
that the SEC regulates where fraud is
still going to be a prime of prime
concern the gotcha cases again across
the industries where maybe the laws
hadn't been as clear not just in crypto
but in in other areas as well I think
going to take much less of a a priority
um I think right now going into this
Administration they're probably where
about 10% of the enforcement Personnel
allocated to crypto cases I think
that'll get Scaled way back uh whether
cases will settle uh and whether a law
will be made in those situations um hard
to predict I do think many cases will go
on the back burner I think people will
have an opportunity to settle if they
like uh we might see the SEC start to
use 21A again a little bit more which is
a way to resolve a case where you don't
have a financial penalty um particularly
in cases where the law hadn't been clear
um but I I do think going forward we'll
see much less emphasis on trying to make
policy through those cases trying to do
that through guidance Ru making public
comment um and uh it is I think
generally a new new
era I'll try to take a shot at this and
I'll approach it perhaps from a from a
higher altitude point of view it my
experience all organizations take their
tone from the people at the top uh we've
got different types of people at the top
now the last few administrations except
for Trump 45 it was the political class
and it was a lot of lawyers and the
approach that certainly was there during
Biden was um it's mother mayi before you
proceed with Innovation the tone from
the top now is not a lot of lawyers not
a lot of political Class A lot of
entrepreneurs and they want to get back
to an environment that's a traditional
American certainly a Silicon Valley
environment which says if you're not
breaking something you're not moving
fast enough don't ask permission ask
forgiveness and so when I the way I
think that's going to work its way down
to the enforcement level by the the
market Regulators is going to be less um
going after firms and I've heard this
phrase used in the new Administration
for foot faults let's play the game or
to use a football analogy too many
penalties ruin the game and if the game
is about entrepreneurship it's about
building business it's about building in
America we can't have a uh play flagged
we've got to have a a more permissive
now that doesn't extend extend a fraud
manipulation there's going to be the
same if not a greater emphasis on fraud
and manipulation but for technical
violations um I think you're they're
going to say look if you're building
something legitimate that's a technical
violation we'll deal with it as a
technical violation not necessarily an
enforcement action or Wells no as all of
the stuff that's been used to stifle
Innovation over the last four
years and I'll give my quick legal
disclaimer that I have to give as a
government employee that the views I
share today are my own and not
necessarily those of the uh commissioner
my fellow Commissioners so I kind of put
these cases in two buckets there's the
bucket of Fraud and I've always been a
little frustrated that everyone has
called it crypto fraud because in my
experience from what I've seen they just
call it crypto fraud but it's fraud they
take your money they misappropriate it
no crypto's purchased that's not going
to go away we will still see in fact we
may see more of those cases because we
will have enforcement focused on that
sort of activity where they should be
focused because there was a lot of
people losing a lot of
money with a with the name crypto
involved but no again no crypto being
bought or sold so the idea of crypto
fraud I think is a very unfair ter term
um it's just fraud it's no different
than any other fraud that's been
perpetrated over you know many many
years those cases will continue we may
even see more and it's important that we
continue that you know those enforcement
um efforts where we won't see as much is
this idea of you know what we have done
with a few cases that I've spoken out
against is we have brought registration
violations and what's even more
frustrating about this is sometimes
we'll say in the settlement you failed
to register as maybe a a contract Market
maybe as a swap execution facility maybe
as a clearing house we're not sure we're
not sure what you failed to register at
but you failed to register and so we're
going to ask you for a settlement and at
the end of the day there's actually no
way for these entities to come in and
register as any one of those categories
so we're going to get away from that
we're if if the idea is to get people
into register we're going to provide
some clarity help them you know how how
do we do this how do we make this work
and let our enforcement team focus on
what is really important which is
rooting out fraud in the
markets that's that that's fantastic so
we're going to Pivot now to Congress and
legislation so I think a lot of us
understand that a lot of statutory
Authority is probably needed in some of
the areas where that statutory Authority
is not particularly clear we had a brief
prep call and even since then um we've
had more announcements Senator Bill
Hagerty announced that he's going to
introduce new stable coin legislation um
we all know the digital asset
subcommittee in the Senate is being led
by senator lumus who is the obviously uh
leading on the lumus gilland build with
with Senator gbrand Congressman french
hill who ran the digital asset
subcommittee is now running the house
Financial Services committee so there's
a lot of optimism in Congress and um and
certainly a very Pro cryp through
attitude so my question now is like what
do you want to see and what do you
expect to see can get done in the next
two years between stable coin Market
structure legislation or anything else U
bill you want to kick us off sure um
well I do think the stable coin
legislation that's been proposed in the
Senate uh looks pretty good um and I
expect and fren chill said this the
other day that something very similar
will get introduced in the house uh I
think as an industry that's terrific uh
to have Clarity there it's one of the
easier things for the Senate and the
house to work on together and to get out
there and it's a good first step uh I
think the framework legislation is going
to be tougher uh French had indicated
that they're going to start again with
fit 21 um many in the room probably had
various issues with fit 21 everyone no
one loved it uh in its entirety uh there
was some bations there between the sec's
jurisdiction and ATS markets and uh the
cftc uh having a General market
framework regime so I think that's going
to get addressed and worked out he did
say there'll be some improvements um but
I think that's going to take time uh you
know in the same way that it's going to
take time for the SEC to kind of turn
over a new Leaf to really come through
with some concrete evidence that now
this is a more you know hospitable uh
regulatory approach I think it's going
to take a while for um the the Congress
to actually move and to get the
consensus from the agencies you know one
of the things that marked the last four
years was that there was not a lot of
technical assistance being given by the
SEC or the cftc probably even less from
the SEC than the cftc to Congress as
they try to Grapple with these issues
they're tough they're ones that are very
technical and where they really benefit
from SEC and cftc advice uh that's going
to be available again and I think um
you'll see fit 21 and whatever happens
in the Senate have uh much more input
from the agencies and so that's going to
take take a little time in the meantime
I think we will see interesting things
going on the agency at some point I'd
love to chat about those but let's stay
focus on the legislation right now great
you um Brett I was at the uh I gave a
talk at the RNC convention in in
Milwaukee in August on crypto in a trump
Administration and I said that um I saw
Trump proceeding in three three buckets
the easy the more difficult and the very
difficult the easy was getting rid of B
bad policy the more difficult was
delivering on the promises made in
Nashville in July and the difficult was
actually getting good policy so what
we're seeing we're seeing that play out
exactly like that getting rid of bad
policies actually moving at lightning
speed we we've we've already gotten rid
of or at least we're in the process of
getting rid of debank and the work
that's being done by the acting chair at
the FDIC to reveal how much de banking
was going on and the hearings that are
taking place on the hill we're getting
rid of the hostility to uh self-hosting
of wallets we're getting rid of the
hostility to crypto custody with the
repeal of of sa 21 and we're getting rid
of Regulation by enforcement simply by
firing The Regulators by enforce the
enforcement Regulators so we're the the
the the getting rid of bad policies
happening very quickly the delivering on
promises promises of a crypto Council
Promises of a of a of a bitco coin
stockpile the promises of of um perhaps
capital gain reduction or elimination on
crypto transactions promises that were
made in Nashville we're seeing just the
other day with David Saxon the executive
order of studies on a stockpile and
other things so the promises are being
delivered on they're going to take a
little bit more time but they're being
delivered on but the hardest thing of
course now it's not it's one thing to
get rid of the bad policy of the last
four years getting to good policy is
challenging and and Bill just noted uh
the work that's being done you noted as
well in the house and the Senate uh but
then there's also work to be done at the
agencies and um uh my former agency the
cftc has a very good principles based
approach and so I think it's
demonstrated that it can work with that
but I think further work as Caroline uh
explained as being done at the SEC uh
Pathways need to be developed and I'm
very uh optimistic um that um under
acting chair UA but also once Paul
Atkins is confirmed and arrived with the
help of Hester Pur and her new task
force um those pathways are going to be
developed so I you know he he he
promised a lot we needed a lot we needed
to get rid of bad stuff that's happening
we need the promises delivered on and
ultimately we've got to get to good
policy I'm very optimistic it's going to
be done within the first two years of this
this
Administration it it seemed like under
chair gendler there were times when I
remember going to the hill asking for
things to kind of push and Advocate that
the SEC would do and I think now at
least on the SEC side we feel like
there's a lot of statutory Authority
they have within the realm of Securities
where we actually don't need Congress to
be leaning on them as much we can
actually engage directly with the SEC on
the cftc side it's kind of interesting
you have you know we now have the you
know obviously the big products being
Bitcoin and ethereum both being sort of
spot Commodities and it's interesting
the cftc doesn't really have the
regulatory authority to to oversee spot
commodity markets or even retail
investors so I guess what do you think
is needed um commissioner meringer in
terms of you know legislation to help
the the cftc or to help there be greater
authority to really be able to regulate
these markets so that they can evolve
properly yeah and I actually think we
have more Authority than than most
people are aware of you know when you
start looking at retail um participants
you know our um Forex markets are are
very um it's mostly retail participants
and we've we've kind of built that up um
over the years and so we do have some
experience and you know I I think that
there are some things we can do while
we're waiting for legislation you know
the biggest thing legislation is going
to do is kind of have a framework to
decide where the jurisdiction Falls um I
always go back to you know I think
people simplify the argument of is it a
commodity or is it a security that's not
quite how it works I mean everything is
kind of a commodity including Securities
but one
the SEC calls it a security then it's
out of our jurisdiction and so you know
putting some a framework around that so
we can have some clarity there but you
know there are things that we can do we
have some um exemptive Authority at the
agency that we could use um there are
there are opportunities to um expand you
know kind of our regulatory remit and
while we're waiting for congress um the
other thing I I think the two agencies
could do is you know we we could sit
down tomorrow and and come up with a
list of what's already known you know
what what's a commodity what's a
security you know what falls in SEC
jurisdiction what what Falls you know
kind of in the in the
cftc's area and how did we come to those
conclusions you know putting that out
publicly so people have an idea going
forward again while we're waiting for
legislation so I think there's a lot
that we can do before getting to to
bills um but I do at the end of the day
a market structure bills is important
but it's going to it's going to take
time um Congress does not move fast they
have a lot on their agenda and um you
know I I'm glad that they're they're
focused on this but I I think it's going
to be you know maybe not a first year of
Congress thing maybe a second year of
Congress it it is interesting I'm dying
to dump it jump into this go right in
there because because I often feel that
that sometimes SEC people are from Mars
and cftc people are from Venus and and
they speak in different languages um we
mix this up particularly well so we
could have the Absolut and you've got us
in the middle by the way we're squeezed
here but often I'll hear SEC people say
well you know in cftc world you guys
don't have investor protections and and
I say well we got you know anti frud
we've got anti-market manipulation when
I press my SEC friends It ultimately
comes down but you don't have a
disclosure regime well of course we
don't because commodities don't have
promoters when mother nature produces
oil and gas she doesn't issue a
perspectus right there there is no
Central promoters look we're both in the
business of alleviating information
asymmetries but in SEC world the way you
alleviate that is you get the promoters
to tell the world everything they know
that the world doesn't know in the SEC
world the commod there is nothing that a
commodity a gold mine knows that the
rest of the world doesn't know and so we
address information asymmetries
differently we rely on Market sources oh
there are hundreds of gold reports oh
there are hundreds of oil reports in
fact you just go on to Twitter and you
get a Bitcoin report by the second and
so what we assure is that there's just
plenty of information and let the
consumer let the market parti separate
the weed from the chaff so it's not that
we're not in the information asymmetry
addressing business it's just that we
approach it different and that's when
you're really when we sit here and say
what's a commodity what's a security
what you're really deciding is who has
responsibility if any for putting out in
investor information if it's a
commodity you there is no Central
Bitcoin promoters to issue a Bitcoin
there's the Bitcoin white paper and then
there's a lot of public information but
there's not a central promoter if it's a
security however then we're going to
rely on promoters to issue information I
see Bill chomping at the
bit well I mean I you're in for fun guys
now we're got to get really into it I
wish the world were so easy you could
say this is a commodity and that's a
security um one of the Beauties about
this technology is that you can create
instruments that are almost hybrids you
can create instruments where they're not
a full commodity it's not like it's a
completely fungible uh investment that
you're making when you decide to buy
this level one coin versus that level
one coin there are differences and
sometimes there are insiders that have
more insight into how those um products
are working and so there are information
and symmetries which is Su Point why a
taxonomy is so important like how can we
start to think about these things and
regulate them in a reasonable way where
it's clear enough uh and you don't have
to engage in a very highly subjective uh
analysis which only at today you know
ethereum and Bitcoin pass but is there
something in between where we can have a
regulatory framework where this question
is not quite as critical where you
address the a information asymmetries
problem in both agencies so it ends up
in the cftc there is a disclosure
obligation for folks that want to trade
it maybe for folks who have issued it um
you know some of the framework bills try
to do this everyone has a certain level
of information so some of these really
tough questions around is this
decentralized what's it mean to be
decentralized have a lot less importance
if everyone is getting the same
information is getting the adequate
information that they need to make a a
choice and and which instruments to
invest inv in so we think that's really
important both for the SEC to weigh in
on uh and for the framework uh to
address um and then you know in the
meantime I do think it's going to take a
while uh for legislation it could be you
know next year's Congress um and if that
happens it'll be really fascinating to
see what Hester is able to do uh with
her crypto task force right now um Mark
UA the acting chair has delegated all of
his authority in this space to Hester
which doesn't you know normally happen
uh crypto mom crypto mom and you know he
recognized that she is someone who's you
know way ahead of him in terms of
understanding the space and uh is is
very comfortable delegating that to her
uh she very much wants to hear from all
of you uh you know I have talked to her
they can do uh which would be really
helpful um for everybody and would and
show some good faith would be to do some
guidance on airdrops and aird drops is
one of these areas where you know it's
okay are the rules just all open now
anybody can do an airdrop um you know
they've been AB abused by folks in the
past and of course they're critical for
many people acting in good faith to
develop a critical Network size Network
and get the the virtuous circle of you
know people using their their Network
because they've gotten coins through an
airdrop the SEC has a lot of exemptive
authority and would be able to be very
helpful in that space uh and give people
some comfort that if you're not you know
creating an airdrop just to dump into a
market but you're the Insiders are
staying out of that for a while that
that's going to be something that will
be acceptable so there's things like
that if you have ideas where that is
helpful to your uh ecosystem and I would
you know encourage you to uh feel free
to talk to the in the meantime we're
trying to encourage them to take the
first step and to show some good faith
there but there are areas like that
where even though it's a new environment
and people are going to be much more apt
to be entertaining uh and and
comfortable with new ideas I do think
there's going to be specifics where they
can give guidance and we can help them
I'm sure most of you have seen
commissioner P's uh Speech from earlier
this week on the The Journey forward and
I think it's a really good thing to look
at because it it is en encouraging
people to engage to send in your ideas
to come and inv it so I think that's
hugely helpful I can I can say that when
I was there those sorts of things were
really helpful just to close out the
point the cftc point I can say this that
um when when Chris was chair we had a
very good working relationship there was
a lot of communication we had anou on
Security based swaps and title 7 um and
I think in the last four years that got
a little more tense maybe the
communication wasn't as fluid as as it
could have been I'm very hopeful that we
will get there and that that will sort
of you know heal itself and we'll have a
very productive conversation because
clearly the two really need to get
together right yeah and to that point I
think that the working relationship is
so good now going forward that people
have decided that maybe the two agencies
can merge so um I don't agree with that
but no that's I mean but we right now
the the kind of setup um with with uh
acting chair uh chairman UA and
commissioner Pur um acting chair fam and
myself we talk the four of us talk all
the time we don't we don't all get
together because that might be a
sunshine act violation but you know we
talk to each other and we discuss what's
going on and and what's happening and
what we're thinking about there we
should have these ongoing conversations
it shouldn't be a you know once every
six months because you have to get on
the phone um these should be ongoing
relationships and and we have that now
and I think that's only going to get
better as we go forward maybe in the
government efficiency thing they could
put you on one building and you guys
could like you know have lunch together
Hester thinks that's a great idea in
fact she said if I move in next to her
she will make me coffee every day so I
think we have time for one more question
we're kind of short on time so we're
going to try to rip through this one
quickly but you know there when you
think about the lobbies that are going
to the hill believe it or not the the
crypto you know industry and digital
assets it's not all necessarily on the
same page so you have folks that are
more CI oriented around central
exchanges you have a D5 VI you have
different different views right so
you're hearing different positions there
um and it will be interesting to see how
they resolve this and I guess Bill I'm
wondering you know sort of seeing the
different views and the different pushes
you know what do you think is the best
way to get to good policy when we have
different elements of the industry
really pushing for different things in
some cases even building regulatory
modes around existing models yeah I mean
I don't have all the answers obviously
um but I do get concerned at times with
you see different parts of the industry
sort of lobbying for their own
self-interest um I hope everyone takes a
longer term View and we all Prosper if
this industry you know prospers you know
because it has confidence in the
consumer space because we're delivering
good products because the regulations
actually make sense and and work um if
people are out there looking for their
own little you know Twist on fit 21 or
something comes out of the Senate uh it
may serve their business model really
well in the short term but I think in
the long term probably won't um so I
would just encourage everyone to think
about what is a you know a stable
long-term environment where consumers
are protected capital is raised and this
business can um be facilitated you know
I love this industry it's got so much
energy and dynamism but boy does this
crypto industry have more pillow fights
than any other industry I know L1
against L1 um exchange against exchange
stable coin against stable coin uh
events contract Market against events
contract Market it's it's an industry
that doesn't have one doesn't have two
doesn't have three doesn't have four has
five separate trade associations I mean
what industry has five separate trade
associations and so there is a real risk
that this industry continues these
battles at a time when we've got to make
good policy now the interesting thing is
a lot of the people that Trump is
bringing in aren't Veterans of the five
10 years of this industry and have all
the scars of all these pillow fights
I've sat down with with David Sachs and
he's somewhat surprised to learn about
how many of these Petty fights are going
on so my One Plea to an industry that I
love is we've got to put all that aside
and as Bill said let's focus on the core
elements and and it's a new government
that's not trying to control everything
they actually want the industry to come
to them with good ideas good Solutions
good Frameworks and we should be working
together and all of those pillow fights
should be put aside fight in the
commercial uh fra uh um uh environment
but don't fight in the policy
environment the policy environment we we
it's in all of our interest to get good
policy done and get it done as quickly
as we can I'll be really quick just to
put a quick plugin for the cftc I think
this is why principles based regulation
works so well for these markets because
it doesn't matter if you're CFI defi
trafy we have principles you meet those
principles however you see fit to for
your your model but at the end of the
day you know we're going to we're going
to um regulate for the risk and we we
have you know the principles out there
to protect against certain risks and we
let you know the the markets figure out
how best to handle that risk as long as
they're meeting our principles we aren't
going to prescribe exactly how that
happens and so I do think that's why the
cftc has kind of been the flagship
regulator for these markets or at least
that has been the trajectory of um you
know where we really should have this
jurisdiction lie so so lastly in one
sentence what do you think is the most
meaningful thing that we can get done in
the next two years actually get done out
of out of Congress to to uh you know
help move this ecosystem
forward well I think stable coins gets
done the question is whether we can get
a fit 21 or some version of it done as
well I think the same thing in terms of
what you expect from Congress I do think
you want to see a lot more coming out of
the agencies as well um in terms of
there's a lot of policy a lot of
exemptive authority and a lot of things
that can be done there to actually help
the industry and and they have an open
mind to Bringing people in and hearing
and listening and so we should take
advantage of that I spent 15 years in
Congress and so my expectations are
really low um I think the biggest
accomplish I would like to see are the
Committees all working together House and
and
Senate agriculture Financial Services
Banking Committee all of them
recognizing that they have a seat at the
table um that's the only way this is
going to get done and so that's what I'm
I'm hopeful and I think that we will
actually get that far at least thank you
all so much let's thank this round of panelist
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