This content is a wide-ranging conversation exploring themes of personal growth, belief, masculinity, and the pursuit of a meaningful life, framed by a milestone podcast episode.
So, I mentioned to you that this is
episode 1,000. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> It's been 7 and a half years. Uh, we
just crossed a billion views the other
day as well.
>> Congrats, man.
>> And as a little surprise to you, we
wanted to take you back to an
environment that you probably know at
least a little bit well. Ah,
Ah,
Cooper's Place, Alberta, Canada, where
we shot it. We planted production
planted all those corn fields too.
They're as far as yeah I could see.
And this is the road Cooper drives up on
the way out. And that's that Han Zimmer
countdown. 10 9 8 Leaving children to
follow dream liftoff.
liftoff.
>> I love how quick that is. That
transition from from leaving to going. I
think that's so cool. Yeah, I think it
was, you know, Chris's version of tying
the human
drama. What would you do? A father
leaving children to go do what they know
they were meant to do. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> And leave this earth and then from there
on time changes. And yeah, at the end of this
this
shoot, when
it was wrapped and it was clear, we had
no more shots, no more scenes on this location,
location,
my family and I were in my Airstream on
the set is where we lived. We got uh um
at the edge of base camp, we turned our
Airstream to face out to the mountains
and right behind us is your medical and
your food, whatever you need from
production. But we stayed extra few days
and just hiked it and stuff. And one of
the things that was fun is I let my son
probably I don't know what believe I was
seven, eight at the time.
>> We got in my truck and I let him
drive through these corn fields as fast
as he wanted.
And he was going 360 all around cuz I
had checked. I was like they go, "No,
it's it's for as far as you can see.
It's just like the salt flats. Hit it."
And I've got some video of that and some
pictures. It was top. Yeah.
>> I think Mark Twain said that first,
didn't he? A version of that. History rhymes.
rhymes. Um
Um
seems for as much as we go,
our generation's so different than the
last one. And there's never been
anything like this. The es and the
flows, the debits and the assets. And
for every new technology and old there's
a debit in an old culture and uh
uh
it seems like it always is right there somewhat
somewhat
equalized and balanced. And then there's
a rhyme in that that sort of ecclesiastical.
ecclesiastical.
You know, there's a time for everything
and for every you reap that will you
sow. There's a time to kill. There's a
time to live. There's a time to plant.
There's a time to gather. There's a time
to spread. It's very immersonian too,
too,
you know. And uh for every new
technology we lose an old culture, you
know, and these these things that we
think are contradictory, heaven and
hell, hate and love that we think are
like this an imbalance for the truth of
them, I think, is in that third eye
where they overlap. And they all do
overlap. They all sort of balance
themselves out. And I don't know how
much new under the sun we actually are
doing. I think we call it different
names. Think we change the labels. I
think you get some things that are extra
strength and some things that are unled.
>> But I think they all pretty much balance
pretty much balance out and there's
rhyme and balance.
>> What's your perspective on coincidence
in life? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Serendipity.
>> Serendipity.
>> Yeah, man.
Well, first time I have it is deja vu
and you have it twice. I call it vu deja.
deja.
Let's flip that thing around upside and
backwards. Both sides of the coin. Um,
look, in some ways it's the beginning of
an argument
for God, a divine plan, u fate, karma.
In other ways, I don't mean that's fun
to start doing that math to try and
prove our way there, but
it also feels like those are the swing
backs. Oh, I've been here before. H I
was here before. This
This
life it doesn't have the the period at
the end of it. I mean, who knows how
many, you know, many lives, many
masters. I don't know if that's true. It
just sure makes it sure feels like it is
sometimes. Um, that's a rhyme. That's a
real nice a real time when life does
rhyme and you look and you look for the
math and you look for the science added
up and it ain't there
in that way. I do think science is the
practical pursuit of God of which we'll
never prove
and that's the point. So there you have
belief and faith for that which can't be
proven. But the pursuit of that is also
why I think God loves an atheist
scientist. It's like yes, keep it up.
>> Pursuit of that is why I think in my
agnostic years
where I said self-reliance, it's on me,
man. Forget faith. I'm not relying on
God. I ain't praying for nothing. It's
on me. Responsibility, self-reliance. I
believe that when I came back to my
faith that I heard God applauding.
Thank you for having your hands on the wheel.
wheel.
>> Thank you for taking the self-reliance
and saying it is on you cuz you know
what? I need that.
>> Well, it's that wonderful idea that God
doesn't want to do everything. Some of
it's up to you.
>> Amen. And though free will and faith
and self-reliance and faith, they can
seem contradictory, but I don't I don't
I don't I think they're the I think they
do rhyme.
>> And you need both. And we Yes, there's a
time for it. Inshalah, God willing,
there's a time for Well, if it's
supposed to be, it will be.
>> Yeah. Usually right after it happens,
>> you know.
>> Yeah. Uh, I think George Jenko says,
"Every man knows God when he's at his
lowest, that there are reliable times
when people turn toward faith."
>> And how many people turn at the end of
their life?
And I wonder, you know, if there is a
God, is that in the same way that, you
know, Catholicism could say sin all
week, but if you read if you meet it and
you ask for forgiveness on Sunday,
you're washed clean. Well, I see some
people use that as a crutch and go right
back to repeat offending. I've got a
appointment here going to forgive me
father for I know what I do. And I'm I'm
curious like is that okay to just
>> what's that mean?
>> Meaning there's the forgive me father
for I know not what I do.
>> And and I'm writing about well forgive
me father. There's times I know exactly
what I'm doing and I do it anyway.
>> Yeah. That was an error of valition not accident.
accident.
>> A choice I made. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Now if I'm going to keep making that
choice and be a repeat offender.
I'm not ready to go. Yeah. But if I ask
for forgiveness on Sunday I'm all clean.
We can do it all over again. I'm not
ready to I'm going. No, no, no. Hang on.
The buck's got to stop here, man. If
you're a repeat offender, God's going,
"Yeah, you're not going to sit there and
>> tom foolery with me here, bud."
>> Um, and I don't want to do that with myself.
myself.
Just as if I steal from you
and I come to you and I go, "I'm sorry."
That was I was I don't know where I was.
I was at horrible choice. I'm sorry.
Sorry. I'm asking for your forgiveness.
If you forgive me
cuz you take the my sincere want of
reconciliation, the first thing on the
docket between us should be me starting
to do anything and everything I can not
to have to come to you and say I'm sorry
for the same damn thing again.
If I do it
once, twice, I'm a repeat offender and I
stole from you three times, I think, and
I'm hoping you'll still forgive me, but
I wouldn't trust me,
you know. Um,
yeah. I think that's something that we
forget sometimes is that once you do the
forgiving, which let's go, let's the the
spite move out of us so we don't get
sick with that. The first thing
responsibility is on the one who's
asking for forgiveness to do everything
they can not to have to come to ask for
forgiveness or say I'm sorry again.
>> And I think we forget that. That's
that's on that's that's the debit.
That's that's what's owed by >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> the offender first.
You gave the grace to say I forgive you.
So he called we that doesn't mean it's
even money. That means I got work to do
>> to make sure I'm not coming back to ask
for it again.
>> As opposed again as opposed to there is
no amount of work that you can do that
will ever get you back to even keel.
It's someone saying
>> right the ledger is still imbalanced but
the door's open to the bank. the door
and and and it's on me to go
>> come and repay.
>> Look, I wish rehabilitation like the
jail system. I wish it was such that
once someone's out,
>> they're like you and me going to apply
for a job. They're not.
>> Scarlet Letter's on them. Well, that
means our our system of rehabilitation
isn't working
>> cuz if it works, you should get out. I
paid my penance. Now it's even money.
>> Yeah. Yeah. How do you think about
think of when I've been betrayed.
When it's clearly betrayal, I know it's
betrayal and that person can look and
go, "Yeah, that's what I did." Um, I've
been asked for forgiveness for that
before. And I've been also seen people
go, "Yeah, that's what I did." And
they're not asking for forgiveness.
They're going, "Yeah,
that's what I did."
First response is, "Well, [ __ ] you." The
second one is, "If that's on my mind, if
that's keeping me up at night, that so
or whatever that is,
I got to I got I got to I got to flush
that. I got to wonder why is that on my
mind? I got to forgive that deed,
that person for that deed." And again,
not necessarily trust him, but do my
best to forgive him. And that can take
me a while. And I think that what takes
me the most time to to to forgive the
betrayal is
me when and if I betray myself, forgiven myself.
myself.
Because you know how it is, man. We
forgive too quickly. We dust resilient.
We hop up and dust oursel off and go,
"Forgive you. Let's do it again." We do
become repeat offenders because we
didn't take the time to put oursel or
feel the guilt of the wrongdoing and pay
a little penance to look at and go, I
don't want to feel this again. I don't
want to do that action again to make
myself feel this way. I don't it doesn't
it doesn't feel like me. I don't want to
I don't want that person to have that
sadness or anger with me again or the
world to have that sadness and anger
from this. I don't want to feel that
again. And that takes some pause
to then go now I forgive myself. Let's
carry on and trust and be ready to do
the work to say we're not going to we're
not going to just let that slide anymore.
anymore.
>> It's not there's going to be a way to
hold myself to the highest end. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Because it didn't pay off because the
repercussions sucked. There is a
unique sort of circle of hell that is
reserved for when you keep on making the
same mistake over and over again that
you've done it. You've had to pay the
penance. Yeah.
>> Say that you're sorry
and then arrive straight back at the
same place.
>> Yeah. I think there's a hell in the mirror.
mirror.
Then I think it can become a living hell.
hell.
Like I I got that poem in there, Daymares.
Daymares.
>> I love that one.
>> I do too. You know, night nightmares
suck, but at least you wake up
>> and they're over. It's the ones that
stick with you when you wake up and go
through your day that are right there.
Those are the ones. That's the living hell.
hell.
>> I think that's what you're what you're
talking about.
Word gets out, the circles gets out. You
people doubt you on your approach.
You're like, "Yeah, but don't do this
for this." I mean, all of a sudden,
you're going places and you got to look
over your shoulder. You got to see who's
there that I didn't pay back, who do I
owe? What bridge did I burn? What person
did I betray to get where I am? That's a
life. That's a living hell.
>> Well, forget that. That
in the modern world, you can move from
city to city. uh at least you can in
some regard leave your reputation
behind. This was one of the issues of
the west, right? This was how the snake
oil salesmen were able to keep going cuz
they would bounce from town to town, >> right?
>> right?
>> However, if you lose your reputation
with yourself,
if you no longer trust you, >> yep,
>> yep,
>> I don't keep my own word. I know that
I'm not a trustworthy person. I keep
making promises to myself and to other
people and I keep on breaking them. I
keep doing something that hurts other
people or the same person.
They don't trust me anymore and oh, I
don't trust me anymore. And you're 100%
right. It all comes back to being a very
personal act. And what some people would
say, oh, that person's acting selfishly.
No, they're actually being incredibly
unselfish. I think cuz they're pinning
themsel in a living hell and having to
look in the mirror and going, I don't
trust you. I don't respect you. Now, how
long? And I know some people that can
sleep quite well with that existence.
>> I don't know how long they can do it.
Sound bound to be some come up. It's the
world's got to get small. They got to
get dizzy somewhere. But,
you know, where's that come from?
Where's that come from for
an agnostic, an atheist?
Where's that come from? From someone in
power that could easily damage somebody
but chooses not to be cruel and they
could so easily. Why not? Where's that?
What What is What's that moral compass
of some sort of fairness or integrity
that keeps someone
having that kind of character even
though they may not believe in God or
religion? That's why I'm saying in this,
is it about belief? Yeah, the book's
about belief. That's what I'm pedling
here. I need more of it. I personally
believe in God but the whole thing is
not for if people that just believe in
God. You believe believe in trying to
pursue your better self transcendent
self. If you believe in the future, you
believe in your kids, you believe in the
past, something don't know what that is,
ask yourself what you die for. Start
there. Everyone kind of believes in
something. There's an argument that even
Nile believe has nothing. Nothing's even
something, you know. Um I don't know how
you double down on nothing, but
>> double nothing.
>> Yeah. There's a an opposite end to this
scale as well that continuing to sort of
betray yourself. Uh sometimes you can do
everything right and still not get the
result that you wanted and that seems
like a really tough pill to swallow for
people. I think that's why people become
uncomfortable with fully feeling their emotions.
emotions. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So
>> So
where do you go? What do you think when
I really I I gave it my all there. I bed
myself and I still got kicked in the nuts.
nuts. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Not only did I feel like I deserve it, I
feel like I earned it and I still didn't
>> Wait a minute. But you said that's the
playbook and I followed the playbook.
You said these were the rules and the
regulations. I followed it and I was
Well, suppose that's why we have
I have to I think I I naturally come
back and look I I I hustle. I'm a
hustler. I I I'm not puritanical. I'm
not making not I'm not trying to preach
a absolute straight and narrow way to go
things. I bullshitted my way into things
and faked my way into making things.
pulled off stunts, but
I I I I've never been able to really
live with by hook or by crook, I'll get
it how I can get it. I'll lie, cheat,
and steal to get it. I got the prize and
I'm still okay. I got it. My own shadow
chases me down in the middle of the
night. And those nightmares do become my
own daymares. Now they're getting going
for it and not getting it which we see a
lot now right now. I think we're living
in times where one of the indirect
examples we'll see seeing from leaders
some leadership is
who's got the power? The winner.
Okay. So what are the ethics? Well,
whatever the winner does. Yeah, but the
winner like pillaged and lied and
cheated and told him get the prize. But
he won.
Wait a minute. you moved the goalpost
while I had that. The ball is in the
air, man. Is that okay? They won. And to
I'm not buying to say I'm not ready to
purchase that. Okay, that's just how it
is. Um and
and
I'm in no way foolish enough to think
that everybody out there is on their
best behavior. No, me neither.
Uh, but I'm not ready for just hey,
however you can pull it off and however
many people you crumple along the way,
there ain't no rules, regulations. Oh,
and actually, if you do follow the
rules, you're a sucker.
[ __ ] you. What's the game for then?
We're going to get dizzy on that. That's
going to self-implode. That's going to
be That's not the Wild Wild West. That's
more than that. That's upside down and
backwards and the foot's on the other
shoe. That's not going to last. that
that that that that that doesn't have
any RO long-term ROI for us personally
or collectively as humanity. I don't
think so. We got to police that ourselves,
ourselves,
>> you know, and I think that's my hunch is
that we start with that. Everyone, no
matter how much they're thinking
globally or collectively, it all starts
with something very very personal. And
that that's where a revolution
will could begin. and a revolution of
evolution would begin that each person
goes, "I've got to go one step further."
As I talk about to salvage my character
or one step further before I pull the
parachute, quit.
I think that would that's how
you could really inch forward and evolve
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wisdom. Let's say someone has been
kicked in the nuts a good bit by life.
How do you advise them to sort of become
the hero of their own story again? Man,
Man,
>> that's a tough one.
I got a
I'm going to pull in here called Heaven
or Not and try and find it and uh see if
this kind of half answers that that question
question
and uh you know I don't have
that answer. A lot of times these uh
here it is heaven or not you know
tomorrow is not today's measurement when
the misery is bad enough right these
people don't have to the suffering consideration
consideration
is a it's a privilege man I'm trying to
put food on the table right now and pay
my rent tonight you want to talk to me
about investing in my future
and I say and that's part of what faith
and religion are for to help those in
misery hang on to a hope that will most
likely not be served serve them in this
life to sell them belief and faith that
they will be served in the next. And
what if there is nothing there, man?
What if there's nothing to hope for?
What if there's no next?
I don't know.
But either way, in misery here or
without a heaven there, not having any
hope or faith in anything is a certain
But if you can find something that you
can keep going,
something that no matter how small to
look forward to and continually have
faith in and chase, well then your life
here is going to be better now,
heaven or not.
That's a great question. You know, I sit
here with a life where I have the the
luxury to project, to ask myself and ask
others, no, make a sacrifice today.
Sacrifice a plastic ring today for a
gold crown tomorrow. Sacrifice something
today for more freedom tomorrow.
Sacrifice something today for a possible
healthier future for your kids. I
understand that's a luxurious position.
I'm not going to apologize that I'm in
I'm in it. But I understand to someone
"Good for you, man.
I'm trying to feed the family tonight.
I'm not thinking past that. I can't
think past that."
what he asked them to do. Yeah. My
indirect thing I would say and
understand is well if you don't have the
hope or believe in something you're
going to end up you're going to
definitely going to remain where you
are. And if you have hope and faith in
something, I'm not saying it's 100% get
out of jail. You're going to absolutely
>> peace is a gift of God and grace. To
reach it mean we must rage. age. Yep.
Yeah. I'm going to close my show that
I'm doing when on this little bit with
the tour with this with that cuz
cuz
hey man kumbaya
um I get it. I don't think that's how
peace is coming. I think that's a great
place to hope for, but to get there
is going to take punk rock
a rage.
It's going to take getting wild.
It's not going to be necessarily
logical. It's not going to be tame. It's
not going to be whispered. I don't think
it's going to take nothing. No emotion
gets more [ __ ] done than rage for for
good or for bad. Seems like rage really
moves the needle. You know what I mean?
>> And I think that that emotion and that
approach shouldn't be thrown out when
you're talking about a pursuit of peace
or contentment. I mean, it it takes
sweat equity. It it would take blood
being drawn.
I don't believe that we are as evolved
enough species
to as to just behave as we
intellectually can agree we should be.
I don't see it happening.
We can all agree with it
in an open forum. Enough of us go back
on our own and what we're doing.
You know,
it's a good idea,
but boy, when it's we're cornered and
what we got being possibly trespassed on
be very primal. Some lines need to be
drawn. I I believe so. Wonder whether we
uh overpraise balance
>> when when greatness might demand imbalance.
imbalance.
>> That's an interesting one. That's a fun
Yeah, I think my first reaction would be
we do overpraise balance a bit. It's a
I think a better pursuit is try and find
the rhyme in the inbalance.
>> Well, let me give you what I think is
the justification for why balance gets overpraised.
overpraised.
Most of the people who have a platform
which is sufficiently big with enough
credibility for others to listen on mass
>> have been through the rage and now burst
out the top to reach exit velocity. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> And what that means is
they're in a very different position now
to what they were at the beginning. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> And the summary is uh model the rise not
the result.
>> I like that. model the rise, not the
result. Because the result is where
they're at now. Do not ask Warren
Buffett about how long he spends reading
the newspaper and pouring over old
books. That guy was a hustler. He was a
hustler when he was young. What did you
do when you were at the stage that I am
at? Not what do you do now? Because I
want to get to where you are. That means
I don't do what you do now. I do what
you did to get there. >> Yay.
>> Yay.
>> Model the rise, not the result.
>> Love that. The approach.
>> Okay. I'm all over. I'm all for that and
the way especially the way you just
explained it and and let's just talk
about overall the and I haven't thought
of it when thinking about aspirations
with people and things but the result
which we know there isn't really one and
we cannot imitate someone else's exact
result. We're going to have our own
the the approach is all I think that's
that's that's the best our life can get
is one constant approach or and with
many different approaches but knowing we
never there is no result.
>> That's when I always say the metaphor
life's a verb. Um but that's that's
really fun to go no no no no don't study
the result. What was the person doing
when they got there? And everybody who's
achieved something great was some sort
of outlaw. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> Some sort of hustler. Out of balance,
out of whack, dark times. Woo. >> Astream.
>> Astream.
>> Still wakes up in the middle of the
night and glad there went a mouthguard
cuz they'd have chipped all their teeth
through that [ __ ] nightmare they were
having about those things they did back then.
then.
>> I'm one of those. Well, another question
would be, what virtue is there in
balance if there was no such thing as
imbalance to fight against? >> True.
>> True. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, I just reached equinimity, >> right?
>> right?
>> You know, I walked out onto this tight
rope. Yeah. Exactly. And I I don't know.
It just I didn't wobble once. Well, now
we're going into I have that I got that
thing there. I said, what what's better?
Take eight. Take eight eight big risk in
life. Sin once, miss the mark once, but
get seven. Achieve seven. Seven out of
eight. or take a hundred risk and
achieve eight of them.
My hunch is that
there's a God. He's saying go for the
hundred and get eight
>> rather than eight and get seven. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> If you're not take if you're not taking
enough risk
>> to sin or miss the mark, which is what
sin means to fail, then
then
>> what are you doing, man? Don't come back
with even money. go back with a safe bet
which that can become a sort of recessive
recessive
peace and namaste. No, it's a it's a
it's almost a it's I don't think it's
what the mystics meant when they were
like be disattached. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> I mean go embrace but
for highs and lows and pains and
pleasures understand that those outward
things are not the things to be attached
to for your own identity. It's got to be
inward first. Enjoy those, partake, but
don't become attached to those for your measure.
measure.
>> There's a an idea from Isaiah Berlin
called the inner citadel. He says, uh,
when the world denies us that which we
want, we retreat into ourselves in a
kind of spiritual depth into a sort of
inner citadel. Basically, if you can't
get what you want, you teach yourself to
want what you can get.
>> Okay? Uh so for instance um you damage
your leg in a battle and you can try to
fix the leg in which case you're fine or
if you fail you chop your leg off and
announce that the desire for legs is
misguided and must be subdued.
>> Right? This is a retreat in spiritual
death. This is uh aestheticism on steroids.
steroids.
>> Um I by not trying to play the game
there is no risk of failure. Right.
>> And I think that the not making any
bets. Um I I I see this a lot. I've been
very obsessed with emotions. Since we
last spoke a year ago, I've been very
obsessed with emotions, with feeling
feelings or trying to. And
I get the sense that feelings are one of
these strange bets. Emotions, investing
ourselves, not holding a bit back, not
putting one foot out, like putting it on
the line, opening up. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Exposing ourselves. And
that feels like uh a retreat in kind,
but one that's plausibly deniable. When
we just have one foot out, I didn't
fully commit myself to this this
project, this relationship, this
friendship, this this uh self
transformation. I kept one foot back.
Well, you know, I might I might not be
able to do that right now because I got
this this challenge or this this
restriction from before, this
relationship. Like, I'm going to hold a
bit back. I'm going to keep a bit for me.
me.
>> This is my bit.
>> And it means that if failure comes
along, it doesn't hurt as much. But it
also means that success is less likely.
And if success comes along, you know
that you didn't really earn it. You
didn't really win it because you played
the game. And that's fine in some areas
of pursuit. And at some stages of life, >> right?
>> right?
>> Early in life,
>> I don't think you can be left as
culpable. You're 12 years old, you don't
know what you're doing.
>> In business, the outcome really is what
matters. That is what you're optimizing
for. Some people business is a a a
personal transformation vehicle
masquerading as a wealth-making pursuit.
But for the most part, you're there to
do the business. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But in relationships, in friendships, in
the way that you show up for yourself,
in your personal transformation, in your
relationship to whatever you believe in,
>> I don't think that we should be having
our inner citadel really play any
>> hard to pull off. Um, but
I it's believe it's similar to what I
write about when I talk about a owner's
So many people have the renters's
mentality. Relationships, businesses,
transactional, you flip it, get it, flip it.
it.
And they never give the relationship the
chance to possibly be a friendship, to
possibly be a long-term relationship, to
possibly be a great mate, great partner.
They never give the real estate, the
house a chance to actually maybe become
a home.
I think it's the words better that to go
in with an owner's mentality.
Meaning, have you ever hired someone
that you were like
probably just need you for a few months.
You have?
>> Okay. You have. See, I I have only hired or
or
people that I was like I'm hoping this
is going to be a lifer. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> I'm hoping you're going to provide what
I need and I'm going to get you're going
to get for me what you need that this
could work out forever.
Barely any of them do. Got a couple
>> a few.
>> But that's how you entered the
relationship. But a one I wouldn't have
known or I wouldn't have got out of them
and they wouldn't have got out of me and
if as much if we wouldn't have gone into
it with an owner's mentality.
>> People can tell this is transactional or transient.
transient.
>> Let me ask you this though. Isn't all
right basically every I know it's
transactional transformational those
seem to be the two transaction
every relationship is transactional
>> but not only transactional some
transactional relationships could become
transformational but I mean we're all
using each other in a way that I can get
this from you give this to me my wife
gives this to me I give this to her it's
a transformational relationship but
we're always transacting so I don't have
the problem with the transaction I have
the pro I I I have I have the the whole
back when It's like, "Oh, it's merely
for transaction.
>> Oh, it's merely for use." And
how many people don't even try to hide that?
that?
They're just straight up going like,
"That's that's that's all it's for. What
are you talking about?" >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean, I see it in in in in uh Palo
Alto, man. They raise all kinds of the
startups are everywhere and everyone
invests. You flip and it falls down and
no and they don't even blink. Yeah. and
you work for somebody and you become
their CEO and they fire you and d and
hammer you and see it in politics and
they hammer your name and drag you
through the mud and like dude that's
just that's how it is. No problem. Hey
Bob, how you doing? Like that's the guy.
No, that's fine. It's just business.
It's just politics. I'm like hang on a
minute. So that was that transactional
that that's water off the duck's back
for you? And for so many it is. I'm
amazed at how people do it. They're
built different in the same way as
doctors and nurses and firefighters,
>> people that need to deal with trauma, >> right?
>> right?
>> Uh you are dealing with interpersonal
trauma. You are you are a a soldier on
the field of interpersonal battle if
you're in politics or if you're in business.
business.
>> Yeah. You also don't necessarily do what
you believe.
>> You do what's expedient or successful or efficacious.
efficacious.
>> You efficacious. What's that mean?
>> Uh effective. Okay. Yeah. Um,
you betray
a lot of people, a lot of ideals,
That doesn't sound like very much fun to
me. Not that betrayal part.
I wonder if it's inherent or if that's
me reading it from the outside and
saying, "No, that could be different."
I wonder how much of that is people
optimizing for the wrong outcome and
only getting to see a very narrow
aperture of other people's outcomes,
too. Or this person seemed to step on
some toes and and break a couple of arms
on their way up.
They were okay. Everyone seems to be all
right with this,
>> right? You go, you don't know what the
texture of that person's mind's like
when they go to bed at night. They might
not have spoken to their father in 5 years,
years, >> right?
>> right?
>> They might never feel peace. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> They might permanently be anxious. They
might hate themselves. Might not be able
to get an erection, >> right?
>> right?
>> You want that. You really want that. But
you want this. You want the outside success.
success.
The price that people pay to be somebody
that you admire is one of the most
Yeah.
Trying to think. I'm going through my
head right now. Where have I sacrificed
my own character
to get ahead so then to be perceived
part of that
hustling part I said I've done, you
know, and I
>> That's the rise, you know. Yeah. And
being a marketeteer, too, you know,
gotten away with stuff, played games and
da da da da da. Kiss the fire and walk
away whistling. A little uh Icorus light.
light. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Did we talk about Icarus last time? >> No.
>> No.
>> No. I think I think we're more in need
of Icarus in reverse.
Meaning I I think, you know, oh, don't
get too close to the sun. It's getting
hot. It's gonna melt that wax. I think
most of us are turning back and it's 45
degrees Fahrenheit without bees on. I
was like, dude, what where do you go?
Where do we get the arrogance to think
that it's actually getting hot?
>> We're not even close, man.
>> Not even close to getting hot. I mean,
that close to the sun is way up there.
Arrogant pricks you are thinking that
you're that close. You didn't make it
near as far as you thought you did
>> or as you could go.
I wish more people I'm going to flip the
word were more involved with themselves.
>> Embrace your
>> instead of self-involved. That has a bad
term. I wish people were more involved
with themselves. Yeah.
>> I think that's where we're more deficient.
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wisdom right in the face. Yeah. You
thought you could hide back there,
didn't you? No, no, no. I see you, man.
You know the story of Seisphus? I don't
>> man that was cursed to roll the boulder
up a hill for the rest of time by the gods.
gods. >> Uh
>> Uh
this man gets cursed, I think he was a
demigod, gets cursed to roll a boulder
up a hill. It's heavy, heavy boulder. He
rolls it uphill and just as he gets to
the very top,
he stumbles and it falls down and
crushes him and he needs to walk back to
the bottom,
>> turn around, pick it back up. And
Albeckamu's famous line is we must
imagine Cisphus happy that this
pointless pursuit uh that he finds joy
in the process of doing it.
>> Um I wonder if we can imagine Icarus happy.
happy.
I wonder if we can imagine the guy that
is flying toward the sun as well.
He had a view that nobody else got from
up there and he only did it once and the
wings melted. But >> right,
>> right,
>> what if you'd run that experiment a few
a few times and what if you had a little
parachute that could have sort of
brought him down?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> You might have realized that that was
just a one-off and actually I think you
can get closer.
>> Right. Right.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We must imagine Icarus
happy, I think, is a cool a cool idea.
>> Yeah. And you know, he regulated his
breathing as it got so hot and sweaty and
and
>> he learned
>> somebody swung by and he had a backpack
with water on him the next time.
>> Yeah. He used the stronger glue, more feathers.
feathers.
>> Yeah. Yeah. He stitched it. You know
what I mean?
>> Came down a little more tan than the
time before.
>> I've always relied on logic to make
sense of myself and the world. I've been
finding that tougher to do lately. Seems
to me the facts have become unreliably overrated.
overrated.
What is a fact? Where do we go for the facts?
What's the truth? What's where to go for
that? That's probably a bigger question
than what's a fact. I think a fact I
think the facts are an underdog right
now. And I'm not sure where to go to
The math doesn't seem to be adding up.
I'm not looking around so much. And part
of the reason I wrote this for my own
spiritual therapy, I was going I found
myself getting cynical
not giving people the benefit of the
doubt, stereotyping, objectifying full
And then the scary part was I started to
entertain the idea of, yeah,
it may just be how it is now.
And that scared me.
And then I got angry at that. And I'm
still in the midst of some anger with that
that
which is a bit of that rage thing which
make me act upon it and go [ __ ] Mm-
not conceding and I don't think anyone
really wants to concede that that's just
the way it is. And if it is the way it is
is
and the reality is not enough to get off to
to
let's go to the dream. Let's flip that
script. I always have gone from
non-fiction to say let's make that the
dream. Just keep living. Art emulates
life. And that's in the recent years has
started to pay me back less. How much is
that to do with my own eyes?
Probably quite a bit. But whatever it
is, still seeing it and uh
I want to fight against it. So I flipped
it and said, "Let's go to dreams. Let's
go to pray poems, prayers. These are
pursuits of an ideal beauty. These are
in between the lines. This is in between
the math. This is not academic. This is
not intellectual. These are ideals that
we pursue. The beginner's mind that we
have as a child before we know worse.
And I don't want to be ignorant. I don't
want to be foolishly optimistic. Let's
look to those and believe that we can
Let that bring rhyme to the reason
instead of looking to the reason to find
the rhyme. Mhm. That's
it. The rhyme communicating with the reason
reason because
because
life around us is all like reason
reason. Neck up, man.
>> So, I want to pull some weeds here on
this pathway. Open up that this one lane
dirt top road with potholes and it's a
oneway going the opposite way which way
I want it to go. It's going away from
the heart. And to clean that up a little
bit and go, let's get you two
communicating a little bit. Uhhuh.
>> You're not going to win every time, bud.
Cuz we got we we we like our reason. We
want to mind oursel. But we make a
decision, we have any kind of certainty
or we make a judgment. Let's let's have
this let's have our heart be a
two-factor authenticator before we make
that decision. >> Um
>> Um
and uh that goes for the compassionate
side. That also goes for
the consequences and and of saying the
buck stops here with ourselves and
others. How do you advise perennial
overthinkers to get below the neck a
little bit?
>> Perennial overthinkers get below the neck.
>> Record themselves
all overinking. Have a listen back. I do
it. I overthink a lot. And when I've
heard myself back, I'm like going, "Dude,
"Dude,
you're kind of
seeing so much significance
that none of that shit's significant."
Every detailed frame have You're giving
it a proper name.
Oh, if everything's significant, there's
no significance at all, man. Some shit's
just like I don't have the capacity to
deal with it. I don't really care. It's
just how it is. Don't some of the
inevitables and sometimes you got to let
those ride. I'm not trying. That's just
how it is. I'm going to deal with that
now. I'm going to deal with what I can
deal with. I I get the middle agitations
on that. And I listen to myself back and
I'm like going, "Whoa, you need to get
You need to have a drink.
>> You need to relax. You need to, you
know, I got this uh uh funny appointment
here. It's called barbituate logic.
Where's barbituate logic? Can I find
this for a second? Uh,
Uh,
there it is. I need to calm my brain to
have half the thoughts per hour.
50% of the neural fragments and
therefore twice the power and one doubly
meaningful story with half the words.
>> You know, sometimes it the snaps it's
just it's too much. It's all treble. And
if everything is significant,
you're like, you miss the main thing. I
I'm missing so focused on the drop. I
didn't realize it was raining. It's the
force for the tree thing. So that's the
overthinking. When I've recorded myself,
I can hear that there is some lanyop
lanyop
etc. in my
talk and some of it is babble. Some of
it may be succinctly fine-tuned and
wonderful. Then I have to go, is that
useful to my understanding? Is it useful
to the story I can tell? Is it useful to
my application in life? And a lot of
times I'm like, no, it's clever. It's
like smart [ __ ] I don't want to spend
too much time in that head because that
sounds like, you know, you broke a sweat
in places you weren't really getting
exercise mentally, spiritually, or
physically. Um, so that could sometimes
listening listening back has helped me
baseline some things and kind slow the
brain down. Man,
you're missing me give more meaning. And
you hear the smartest people, man. I
love hearing the wisest people. Their
stuff's short, bro. It's quick and you
go, "Oh." And you're like waiting for
more and you're looking around and
they're like looking at you like that's
it. And you're like, "Perfect." my dad
telling me when I wanted to go to film
school instead of law school and I
thought he was going to go you want to
what him taking that pause and says is
that what you want to do and I said yes
him going
well don't half ass it
was waiting for so much more that was it
and there's no that was it nothing
better he could have told me yeah
>> yeah it's also I think remembering when
we overthink things or overexlain
things. You're stealing a lot of times
in in moments that you think maybe
you're teaching even ourselves,
especially others. You're stealing the
the dignity of leaving the truth in the
askers's kitchen,
like saying letting someone come up with
the have a conversation, but you're
letting them come up with
>> the answer. It's like what the best
directors do in films. They don't tell
you what to do. They talk about and get
you to go, "Oh, oh yeah." So, and you go
it is as you say,
>> then we got ownership and that's our
idea whether we were manipulated into it
or not. We're got going thank you.
>> It's mine. Now we got fire. Now we got
purpose. Now that you get the great
performance in front of the camera and I
think in in life more too when person
feels like they came up with the idea. I
always tell directors, man, I'm easy to
direct. Just don't tell me what to do.
And if you can trick me into thinking,
>> Yeah. You know,
>> yeah, there's a
wonderful insight about why we like
people that's similar to that. So, uh,
inverse charisma. Uh, a lot of the time
we think that we want to be more
charismatic because that would make us
more likable. We want our stories to be
engaging and our aura to be electrifying
and our presence to be magnetic and for
us to walk into a room and for everybody
to sort of look up
>> be compelled.
>> And then I looked at the friends that I
liked spending time around the most.
And they're interesting, but that wasn't
really the common denominator.
Some people are interesting
and some people make you feel interesting.
interesting.
>> And there's this wonderful story about
Jenny Jerome, Winston Churchill's
mother, and she gets to meet uh Benjamin
Israeli and William Gladstone on
consecutive nights for dinner. And she
leaves the first dinner, says uh I left
that feeling like he was the cleverest
man in all of England.
She goes to the second one. She says, "I
left that dinner feeling like I was the
cleverest woman."
And this wonderful idea that some people
are interesting, some people make us
feel interesting.
>> And and kind of the same with with this
idea here that uh >> allowing
>> allowing
allowing the conclusion to be arrived at.
at. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh is often the best solution.
>> Yeah. I I have to continue to watch it.
I love being in the know.
>> I I love giving
advice. I love sermonizing. My kids will
be like, "Can you give something a TED
talk?" Dad, like, "Yeah, shut
>> sit down." No, no, no, no. I've got slides.
slides. >> Listen,
>> Listen,
I let them find it. And you know, I
heard a cool trick and it was just so simple.
simple.
But uh one in
talking and
sharing something that you've learned
that you think may be applicable to
other people. The use of I, you or we to
use the we
>> like you is dangerous because people be
you're talking at me. You're telling me
what to do. I is safe because
>> well that's you're that's your
experience. Maybe you invite maybe
people see themselves or not. to say we
it's a it's it's closer to platitudinal
because you're going like are you
speaking for all of us? But it does
welcome everybody in. And it says that
and I always like to say this when I'm
talking about things with people. I'm
like when I when I say we, I'm I'm
including me. All right. Because I'm not
>> we includes me.
>> Yeah. We includes me. I'm not I'm
working on this [ __ ] too, man. you know,
um, and trying to and like I have to be
reminded don't don't be afraid to ask
the question that I'm asking for myself
that can open up someone else to go,
well, I got an answer to that.
What do you got?
>> Did with the similar with the kids last
night. Instead of saying
VA Levi Livingston, how are you doing?
It's a tough answer, tough question to
answer. I said, and my friend gave me
this note, said, "Hey, what's what's the
life of a teenager like these days?"
They took off and talked and shared all
kinds of stuff
>> cuz I wasn't putting them on the spot or
they didn't take it as put on I found
out so much more about how they're
feeling by asking
>> It's broad question.
>> Broad question.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> You know,
>> Yeah. It's funny how we need license for that.
that. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> In a strange way. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
to be able to talk about is a lot of
times how we best talk about ourselves. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But couched with enough distance. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I have noticed I have seen it. It's the
I'm asking for a friend. Uh justification.
justification.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> What do you think about the role of
courage in life? You know, we've talked
the balance of doing it and not doing it.
it.
>> We've talked about dreaming big and
maybe dreaming even further. And then
we've also had this idea of uh a little
bit of relinquishing of control. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> As well as we got to apply the effort,
we got to have the vision, but we've
also got to know when when we're going
to let let go a little bit.
>> Yeah. It seems to me like courage,
the ability to feel our convictions and
>> commit to them is a little bit of a
common thread that sort of runs through those.
those. >> Yeah.
>> So
I grew up only knowing sort of the
courage of the persistent. Be resilient,
endure, get up, dust yourself off, go.
The problem with that, the Achilles heel
with that is if you get up and you have
the courage to keep on going every time
and get up and dust yourself off, you
make the same mistakes each time around
cuz you never backed up.
To have what I've now learned and still
learning is the courage to go, "No, I'm
going to let some people pass me in the
race right now cuz I'm going to look at
why I keep stepping in that damn same
pothole and twisting my ankle. The same spot.
spot.
why I keep failing when I try to get
that next spot in this relationship or
failing in this place to get this
product of my craft to the next.
>> Would that be uh the relinquishing of
the romcom era in in a a small part for you?
you?
>> Small part. Yeah. Uh yeah, that that was
one. It also has to do with when I got
married. my,
you know, son comes to me at four years
I'm going through my head. You're
[ __ ] four, dude.
I sat there. I was like, "God,
>> did your mom put you with this?"
>> It's a great question, but I mean, we're
not because we're not married. When you
get married, you switch your name. Okay.
And then he just got listened and all of
a sudden he goes,
>> "Are you scared?"
I'm [ __ ] four years old, dude. And I
was like, "Yeah,
I guess I am." I remember going to a
pastor and talking to a lot of different
elder men who had had long-term
relationships, were married for decades
and stuff, and and and my pastor goes,
"Let me just ask you this, Mr. Risk
Taker. What's the bigger risk?
Carrying on like you're going, it's
going well." or taking the deeper dive
into the sacrament covenant of marriage
which should be a covenant between you
and her and God. The trilogy will go
forward. That will be a whole new vent
adventure in itself. Are you what?
What's a bigger risk? I was like, "Oh,
the getting married's a bigger risk." He
was like,
he didn't say another word.
That was part of why I made the
affirmative action and was what I was
looking for as a way to play offense
with that choice. I didn't want to do it
because that's what you're supposed to
do. It's time. We've been dating for
this long. We got engaged. I didn't want
to do it by the book. and I was looking
being able to do the work I was doing
and offer the roles I was getting the romcoms
romcoms
was eating at me
because I felt like I could life is good
man I make good Honey,
feel like I can roll out of bed and do
one of these tomorrow morning. Well,
that's cool,
man. I'm kind of number one. I'm I'm I'm
the I'm the go-to guy for this.
But I wasn't I was countered by I had
met Camila, fallen in love, she's now
pregnant with her first child. So that
my life was extremely vital and I was
alive, cried harder, laughed louder,
felt more joy, all those things. about
my work was like all right and I was
like well I wish my work could be as
challenging or as vital as my life and I
remember looking in the mirror going
well be glad right now appreciate that
it's not the other way around but can I
have my work challenge my lifestyle in
this vitality
yeah if I do some dramas I want to do
well those aren't coming all right if I
can't do what I want to do quit do what
I was doing now that was
I think yeah it was definitely
courageous I did I honestly
think I'd written myself a one-way
ticket out of Hollywood.
People close to me. Basically, almost
everybody besides my wife was like,
"What is your major malfunction, little
brother? You got it made. Why Why are
you throwing a jack knife in this?
You're tripping yourself running
And I had my wife and myself to remind
myself of that 4:00 a.m. clarity that I
had in tears when I was like, "No,
I'm I'm I'm I'm rolling the dice. I'm
sticking with it." >> And
>> And
yeah, man. I did think I wrote myself a
ticket out of Hollywood. I did look at
other vocations, become a teacher,
a wildlife guide. I serious seriously
look at those things. Um
Um
but over time and it was about 20 months
it was gone long enough had found
anonymity enough was not in your living
room in a theater in a romcom. You
didn't see me on a beat shirtless
where is he
and then I think I told you the story
turning down the $14.5 million offer
made people go oh [ __ ] what's he up to?
They don't just you don't just step out
of Hollywood and then unless you get you
turn that down because you got a plan.
you got somewhere you want to go and I
think that made me more
attractive as a new novel idea. But that
was yeah that wrist took a I think it's
fair to say that took a fair amount of
courage from me. A quick aside if you've
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happening inside of my body. Twice a
year, they run lab tests that monitor
over a 100 biomarkers and they've got a
team of expert physicians that analyze
the data and give you actionable advice
to improve your health and lifespan.
Seeing your testosterone levels and
dozens of other biomarkers charted over the course of a year with actionable
the course of a year with actionable insights to actually improve them
insights to actually improve them genuinely gives you a clear path to
genuinely gives you a clear path to making your life better. And getting
making your life better. And getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like
your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually be a nightmare and
this would usually be a nightmare and cost thousands. But with function, it's
cost thousands. But with function, it's just $499. And right now, you can get an
just $499. And right now, you can get an additional hundred bucks off, bringing
additional hundred bucks off, bringing it down to $399.
it down to $399. So get the exact same blood panels that
So get the exact same blood panels that I get and save a h 100red bucks by going
I get and save a h 100red bucks by going to the link in the description below or
to the link in the description below or heading to
