0:03 so guys when melinda calls I answer and
0:05 here we are Melinda's like I think it's
0:07 time for another meeting but the switch
0:09 up today is that she's brought in
0:11 another person that you are familiar
0:12 with too if you're familiar with the
0:14 channel none other than Fabian Geralt
0:16 our he's here and I think we're gonna be
0:18 talking about something that started to
0:20 get under the skin of a lot of creative
0:22 people Donald Miller put out this video
0:24 about the importance of marketing over
0:26 branding and he gave branding a short
0:29 shrift for sure in this video branding
0:30 though is a luxury I think you need to
0:32 be making about 500 million dollars
0:33 before you even start thinking a whole
0:35 lot about branding and get your colors
0:36 right your logo and that sort of stuff
0:39 but branding people have to be familiar
0:41 with your brand in order to be trained
0:43 to feel a certain way about your brand
0:45 until then you need to do marketing
0:47 because marketing is really where you
0:49 make your money marketing is when you
0:51 tell somebody to buy your product and
0:53 you explain why they should buy your
0:55 product mostly because I think he's a
0:57 marketing guy of course he's going to
1:00 talk about marketing so I think that
1:01 sets the stage for the conversation
1:02 let's see where this goes
1:03 so Melinda what are we talking about
1:05 today we're talking about the difference
1:07 between branding and marketing okay so
1:10 you have a perspective on this not yet I
1:18 know that's why I wanted to to bring the
1:21 cat yeah our cat here okay I'm sure I
1:23 have an opinion on it that I am unable
1:27 to yet articulate yeah but I would like
1:28 to hear from both of you and your
1:31 perspectives because as a brand identity
1:33 designer term brand strategist there's a
1:36 lot of overlap and marketing and from
1:37 hearing that Donald Miller video about
1:39 like we shouldn't even worry about it
1:41 until the company was that what did he
1:44 say 50 50 million he changed his mind
1:45 throughout the video but 50 million yeah
1:47 50 million yeah you shouldn't even worry
1:50 about branding unless you're a 50
1:53 million dollar how okay he started
1:55 out with 500 I know it changed yeah 500
1:57 million and then it went down and then
2:02 he corrected himself 250 okay and baby
2:04 and you work with a lot of startups too
2:07 yes we're not at that point with
2:10 companies of all sizes and Melinda sent
2:13 me the video and my head exploded
2:15 and I'm like wait a minute Don Miller is
2:18 a good guy he's talking about story
2:20 branding like that's his friend right
2:21 yeah that's it
2:22 that's a name literally the name of his
2:24 book ran right um
2:26 and I read it and I you know I I liked
2:27 it quite a bit and then I see this video
2:30 and I see the statement and I was like
2:31 yeah Melinda I'm ready to talk about
2:34 that okay well I gotta ask you because I
2:36 watched it and I think there was a lot
2:38 of fire in theory before I watched a
2:41 video so I'm like chill just watch it
2:43 objectively try to remain neutral and
2:45 watch this thing and see what's getting
2:47 people all prickly about it so you said
2:49 your your head exploded so one of the
2:51 things that he said that really made you
2:52 think I don't agree with this point of
2:55 view so I think that we did he position
2:57 it it was one of those quick videos I I
2:59 think he the way he framed that was a
3:01 little bit misleading and that's what
3:02 gets everyone fired up including myself
3:05 but rightfully so right because you
3:07 shouldn't frame something in that way in
3:10 my eyes right the way that he talked
3:11 about it needs to be a 50-million
3:14 company dollar company before you even
3:17 start branding it makes absolutely no
3:19 sense so to me this is very much the
3:22 cart before the horse right because you
3:25 this is a very like antiquated analogy
3:28 here but you cannot you cannot talk
3:32 about something you cannot market if you
3:33 haven't branded it yet like if you don't
3:34 know what you're talking about
3:37 right and in the video he also talked
3:40 about simon psionics famous why and he
3:42 says there's no need to ask why you just
3:45 need to send emails at that point you
3:47 just email email email and don't ask the
3:50 question why behind the company and to
3:51 me that is completely against my
3:53 fundamental ideas right and like you
3:55 first have to create a platform you have
3:57 to create a brand platform to really
4:01 derive why the company exists you know
4:02 you have to create obviously the company
4:04 name I mean it's basic branding pieces
4:06 that need to be in place the reason why
4:07 he said it is because he talked about
4:10 this 50 million dollar company that said
4:12 we need to do branding and he's like no
4:15 you don't so what doesn't work in this
4:17 video is that of course the company
4:18 already had to spend a lot of money on
4:20 branding otherwise it would have never
4:23 gotten to 50 million dollars hmm okay
4:28 anything else Todd for now okay
4:32 being so accommodating okay I think
4:34 let's first understand the structure of
4:35 these kinds of videos because I make
4:37 these kinds of videos too they're
4:40 designed to push buttons and to incite
4:42 your emotions because nobody cares if
4:44 he's like I love branding a lot
4:45 marketing let's talk about marketing
4:48 today nobody from the design side nobody
4:50 on the brand space would would even care
4:51 nobody would share this video look what
4:54 do you think so he's doing I think what
4:56 many people that are really smart about
4:58 positioning says I'm for this and right
5:01 now I'm not for that so it gets all the
5:03 people that are yes we're marketers and
5:05 I also want us to kind of be aware of
5:07 our own bias or biases
5:09 right or biases however you say that
5:12 word which is your branding guy so of
5:13 course you think branding is really
5:15 important I think I didn't fully realize
5:17 this before but he's really a marketing
5:19 guy he's teaching people how to market
5:21 their products and services so he's a
5:23 marketing guy and I think and this is
5:25 our own kind of we want to shape reality
5:28 the way we see it so I'm just trying to
5:31 look at like as robotically as I can
5:34 what is being said and what is more
5:36 important or whatever so let's get into
5:39 that okay let's just say you have a
5:42 product and you have a hundred thousand
5:44 dollars do you spend that on branding
5:46 would you spend that on marketing I
5:49 think you have to divide it in a very
5:52 smart way okay right I mean you should
5:55 in his thirty seventy rule is is not a
5:57 bad rule right I mean out of that budget
6:00 you should must probably take 30 you
6:01 know percent or so on branding because
6:03 you have to establish everything right
6:05 you have to create the word before you
6:08 spread the gospel right and so marketing
6:09 is advertising it's basically putting
6:12 the word out there you need to do a ton
6:13 lot of that right but you first need to
6:15 define what in the business for so I
6:17 think it does make sense that you split
6:19 less for branding and more for marketing
6:21 because if people don't hear about it
6:22 they're not gonna buy your stuff and if
6:24 they don't buy your stuff you're out of
6:28 business right yeah mm-hmm I think I can
6:30 also imagine why I put out this video
6:34 because he consults for firms probably
6:36 50 million and up and they're like we're
6:38 gonna spend all the money on branding is
6:40 that well you have no business so after
6:42 hearing that for a while a piece like
6:44 this comes up that's why I like some
6:45 people like Chris you're really salty
6:47 it's like well I've heard this question
6:49 and in people beating their head against
6:51 the wall so many times that eventually I
6:53 come to the conclusion like this is what
6:55 you guys need to hear and let's cut out
6:57 the BS let's get started because you're
6:58 here because you don't have enough
6:59 runway there's not enough revenue to
7:01 talk about you're gonna be out of
7:04 business in six months we got to fix
7:06 that and stop spending money on branding
7:08 okay so let's take a step back for
7:10 people who are like branding marketing
7:12 these are like terms I use all the time
7:14 interchangeably let's start with the
7:16 definition of branding okay the way that
7:19 you see it what is branding you know I
7:21 have different ways but but I'll just
7:22 you know off the cuff now you know what
7:24 what is branding I mean branding really
7:27 is that it establishes the why behind
7:29 the brand it establishes a look and feel
7:33 it establishes a positioning and an a
7:35 differentiator in the marketplace and
7:39 all of that combined is the beginning of
7:40 branding and so I think it gets
7:42 complicated right because in one of your
7:44 posts recently Chris you're not about
7:46 branding being something that gets
7:48 people to come back marketing is
7:49 something to get people to go to in the
7:50 first place
7:53 that - I think is a fine line right
7:56 because without the brand being created
7:58 you know you can't eat market so it's
8:00 like branding marketing branding
8:02 marketing it kind of goes in it goes in
8:05 this flow yeah so branding on the one
8:07 hand is establishing that emotional
8:08 connection and then on the other hand is
8:10 to keep it up right and go back to our
8:11 values and make sure that we keep
8:14 evolving our brands but marketing is
8:17 obviously key to getting the message out
8:21 right so when I hear this it's like okay
8:23 I'm a graphic designer
8:26 I've been calling my logo branding what
8:27 you're saying sounds a little bit
8:29 different than what I've been doing and
8:31 so I think it's healthy for us to have
8:33 this conversation and and do like a
8:35 public service announcement that if you
8:37 make a logo if you make a mark you're an
8:39 identity designer your logo maker a lot
8:41 of foreign person you're not a branding
8:44 person yet it's one facet but it's just
8:48 one very small facet actually right so
8:50 when you say it's the why behind the
8:52 company establishing the look and feel diff
8:53 diff
8:55 and shading through positioning what
8:57 does that look like what are what are
8:58 the things that you make when you help
9:01 somebody brand their company their
9:03 product or service so in the beginning
9:05 it's a brand platform as the industry
9:07 calls it right so it's really
9:10 identifying how do it's kind of like a
9:12 business plan but a brand plan right
9:15 what do we stand for why do we exist how
9:17 do we differentiate how do we need to
9:20 position our company to stand out what
9:22 is the big why I call it a because
9:24 statement right you know this is why we exist
9:25 exist
9:27 you know what connects with customers
9:29 and understanding the customers before
9:30 you even launch understanding who will
9:33 these people be what channels are they
9:35 on right how can we connect with them
9:36 read the comments in social media and
9:39 start becoming part of top psyche all of
9:40 that even though it could be seen as
9:43 marketing that should be established as
9:45 part of branding before you even create
9:47 a name for the company before you even
9:49 create the logo and the visual aspects
9:52 and then all of that needs to be derived
9:54 in some sort of verbal aura to write
9:56 like a toolbox of what are the right
9:57 words that we use how do we want to
9:59 speak how do we want to be seen as a
10:01 company are we you know I would a friend
10:03 you know I would a leader right how do
10:05 we want to come across all of that needs
10:07 to be established and like you said the
10:10 logo is one little component of it but
10:11 people think it's a huge component
10:13 because that's what they see but the
10:16 rest they feel and I think that is so
10:18 crucial and that's why Donald Miller's
10:20 video the way that he positioned it was
10:23 just like because it was just positioned
10:27 not in the correct way mmm is branding
10:30 eccentric or client centric in your
10:32 opinion how do you mean it by eccentric
10:34 well you say well why do we exist what
10:36 what is it we're doing what's the look
10:39 and feel do we design that based on our
10:41 values and beliefs and our purpose and
10:44 mission or do we look at what customers
10:47 want and design our identity around
10:49 serving a community there's a trap wash
10:51 anyway no absolutely both in a way it's
10:53 in the end it comes to shared values
10:55 right but the values need to come from
10:57 it from within all right so I interview
10:59 a ton of entrepreneurs every two weeks
11:02 from my podcast and every time it's the
11:05 same story of this is why I start this
11:07 company I have a strong belief
11:08 I'm really driven to this discos it
11:10 totally against the grain but I need to
11:11 do this and I need to do this this way
11:13 and you know what there are people out
11:15 there who think like me and those are
11:17 the ones that I want to come aboard
11:19 soon the entrepreneur knows it's not
11:21 self centric because in the end it's
11:23 still all about the customer when they
11:24 create a product or service but there
11:27 needs to be this strong stigma attached
11:29 kind of like this diss soul attached to
11:31 it and there's nothing more natural then
11:33 when the soul comes from from the
11:35 entrepreneur right because then they can
11:36 actually really lead the company and
11:37 talk the talk
11:39 right so what you're talking about is if
11:41 we were to draw two circles there's an
11:43 overlap between our beliefs and values
11:45 and our customers beliefs and values and
11:47 where that alignment that crossover
11:49 starts to become part of our
11:51 differentiator what we stand for who we
11:53 champion and so we have to study the
11:55 customers a bit too right perfect
11:58 exactly now the reason why I think a lot
11:59 of people are upset over this video I
12:01 think it's a little misguided now I'm
12:02 gonna share some of my opinion because
12:04 marketing and branding depending on your
12:07 definition are almost the same thing
12:09 there's a lot of overlap seriously like
12:11 we're we're like blood cousins we might
12:14 even be twins and one just focuses on
12:17 something else and where this really
12:19 gets I think a little tricky for us is
12:22 the traditional definition of marketing
12:24 we're not the same creature but as
12:27 marketing is evolving an understanding
12:29 of marketing as is branding we're
12:30 starting to see a lot of overlap between
12:32 those two worlds and that's why I'm like
12:34 if you just take the word branding and
12:36 switch it out for the win he says
12:38 marketing you'll be okay again right
12:40 right it's because we need to do
12:42 something that moves the needle for our
12:43 clients if our clients are not in
12:45 business if they're not getting the word
12:48 out if they're nonprofit NGO if we can't
12:50 get awareness about what it is we're
12:52 doing then we don't exist we're just
12:54 talking to ourselves and that's I think
12:56 called insanity so we need to understand
12:58 who the customers are see so we're I
13:00 don't like get all crazy about this is I
13:03 have a newer appreciation for the word
13:07 marketing depending on who talking about
13:09 it so we talked to Seth Godin when we
13:10 read his book about this as marketing
13:13 it's like yeah the old idea of marketing
13:15 was just advertising it's just
13:17 repetition of message over all media and
13:19 controlling the dialogue well today you
13:20 know you can't do that
13:22 Moritz push-push verse it is right so
13:25 now he's like marketing is the generous
13:27 act of helping other people achieve
13:29 their goals now you might say wait wait
13:31 wait just let's use the word branding in
13:33 their branding is the generous act of
13:34 helping or let's use the word sales
13:37 sales is you know set so it's all kind
13:38 of like we're starting to come up with a
13:41 much more healthy definition of the role
13:43 and purpose of companies as they relate
13:45 to their customers and you know the best
13:48 brand strategists or even visual brands
13:50 people right the best ones are the ones
13:52 that keep up with marketing and the
13:53 understand marketing and they're
13:54 actually interested in marketing the
13:56 interesting and selling right because Oh
13:59 sparks fly in the intersection of
14:01 marketing and branding of course now
14:03 you're successful and you wouldn't be if
14:05 all you cared about was like meeh meeh
14:07 meeh let's do the look and feel and you
14:09 don't actually help your customers get
14:11 awareness get customers get traction
14:13 improve in the marketplace they're gonna
14:15 be out of business all right so you have
14:18 to solve a real business problem and one
14:20 of the biggest functions in business is
14:23 sales and in doing a little research for
14:25 that Instagram post I came upon this
14:28 thing about marketing and I can't
14:29 remember but it was the CEO of a very
14:31 large multi-billion dollar company he
14:32 said marketing is the most important
14:34 thing that our company does that's why
14:35 we don't trust the marketing people to
14:38 do it and there are different
14:40 definitions about what marketing is and
14:42 marketing can include and should
14:45 probably include product design user
14:47 experience journey mapping everything so
14:49 from top to bottom because now we know
14:52 if one part of your story is out of
14:54 alignment then it's all out of alignment
14:56 and it's not true this is why
14:58 traditional marketing doesn't work
15:01 anymore today because you cannot say
15:02 something that isn't backed up by actual
15:05 experience you and I are more likely to
15:07 go on Amazon read the 300 reviews and
15:09 see what people say then to see any
15:12 piece of advertising and print in social
15:13 or any other place because we just don't
15:16 trust people anymore but we trust people
15:19 who we have some kind of connection to
15:21 that's why influencer marketing is quite
15:24 popular and integrated branding is
15:26 really popular it's because now we trust
15:28 these people and we rely on them to vet
15:30 what is good not good for us right and
15:31 it's interesting to think about how
15:33 these reviews actually ended up there
15:36 right so I'm an author so I wrote two
15:38 books I know your your your writing -
15:39 yes in the middle of it almost done
15:42 what's the status done there we go
15:46 pre-order link it was somewhere in those
15:49 it is not easy to get reviews it is
15:50 really really difficult
15:51 English people rave about your book yeah
15:53 it's really hard to get them to do it
15:55 right so that process of actually
15:57 getting people to review your book so
15:59 that then others can read the reviews
16:00 and feel like oh there's not even
16:02 branding and marketing involved there's
16:03 still behind the scenes right I think
16:05 that's that's an interesting yeah you
16:08 know angle to look at and something else
16:09 that I was thinking about while you were
16:11 talking if you think about you know
16:14 universities universities branding if it
16:16 ever is being taught in universities in
16:19 some I know it is it falls on the
16:20 marketing I am 100% certain of that
16:22 right so this is kind of like this
16:24 curveball right of like how does
16:26 marketing and branding really relate I'm
16:28 sure that there's a hierarchy that
16:30 branding actually is part of marketing
16:34 it wasn't in my education they were two
16:37 completely separate things and they and
16:41 both looked at each other as oh that's
16:42 horrible you don't want to be in the
16:43 marketing department marketing we'll
16:46 look at us oh I still look this is still
16:47 kind of like the stigma right but I'm
16:49 wondering you went to art school right
16:51 you went to design school right so I
16:53 think it's different than if you go to
16:56 you know a regular dish but Chris drop
16:58 it because I'm interested to hear about
17:00 that you know that was just a thought
17:01 that it's kind of like bubbles up to
17:02 marketing what do you want me to drop
17:04 you're looking for a fight this is maybe
17:06 I'm looking for a fight so let's give it
17:08 to I came in with this weird attitude
17:10 this morning you have to be prepared
17:12 okay so what do you want me to drop it
17:14 which I drop no I'm interested in how
17:16 you see do you see because we're talking
17:17 about branding versus marketing right
17:19 and on my drive here I thought about
17:21 wait a minute if Mark if branding is
17:22 taught in a regular University it might
17:24 be taught under the marketing umbrella
17:26 do you see it that way too because
17:28 obviously we feel that the two of them
17:29 are very related but yet they can be put
17:32 into their own little you know area okay
17:34 I see you're setting you up to say
17:35 something that's gonna be controversial
17:37 so I will deliver
17:42 I honestly think from the few exposures
17:44 that I've had to how branding or
17:47 marketing is taught it's vastly outdated it
17:47 it
17:49 very textbook it's a very analytical and
17:52 not much creativity is introduced in
17:55 there and I think I think it becomes
17:57 dangerous when we start to apply labels
17:59 and get into tribalism where it's like
18:00 the marketing people look down on the
18:02 branding people and the branding people
18:04 look down on the marketing people if all
18:06 of us had said what is the end goal of
18:07 what we're trying to do which is to
18:09 improve our clients business to make an
18:12 impact on their bottom line period all
18:14 the other stuff to me is tactics like
18:16 how do we get there and what you call it
18:18 I don't really care it starts to me it
18:21 starts with understanding who the
18:24 customers are and seeing how that would
18:25 align with what we want to do in the
18:27 world so that we can find that overlap
18:29 so maybe there's a major called overlap
18:31 and we sit down and we study what users
18:34 want and who we are and then we teach
18:36 people the different facets but they
18:39 don't have to go eight semesters into
18:40 like making one mark
18:42 well you're not talking about now which
18:43 was really the question you're talking
18:49 about the future maybe I should have
18:50 Fabian on every show because just how
18:52 promote every course book and initiative
18:54 we have just like the sound
18:59 yeah yeah I think that's the problem
19:00 Sarah who's off camera right now it was
19:03 controlling the audio she just gave me
19:06 basically part one of two parts of what
19:08 she's learned in school and marketing I
19:10 had lots of questions for her but one of
19:11 the things that we kind of concluded was
19:14 they teach you kind of the theory of it
19:18 the idea but not so much like now what
19:19 now what do you do with this information
19:21 is that fair Sarah okay so that's kind
19:23 of like where we're stuck and you and I
19:25 know there are classes that design
19:27 schools I call it they call it branding
19:29 but it's not branding at all right it's
19:31 really identity design systems that's
19:33 really all it is because if you're not
19:34 thinking about the name if you don't
19:36 understand positioning and marketing and
19:38 messaging and copywriting and shaping
19:40 the voice not just to look you're really
19:42 not getting into that so it turns out
19:44 this is actually very difficult stuff
19:47 mm-hmm you you have to be masters of
19:51 multiple disciplines and this is this is
19:52 a tall order
19:54 I think in his book the brand flip Marty
19:57 was talking about the skills required to
19:59 be a really great brand strategist and
20:01 he says what five
20:04 people can really do this so it's a very
20:05 small group of people you have to think
20:06 visually you have to be able to
20:08 communicate articulate with words you
20:10 have to think high level the 30,000 foot
20:13 view so now we've pretty much chopped
20:14 the whole field down right and you have
20:16 to co-create right then I think that was
20:18 important when you talked about things
20:19 Hill aberration yeah when you talked
20:22 about branding and marketing they cannot
20:24 be separated but guess what happens with
20:27 client work marketing and sales is
20:29 separated right so it keeps all of these
20:31 Silas and that's why all these companies
20:33 have these issues right so when we
20:35 create a brand with with an entrepreneur
20:38 and you know in his team most of them
20:40 are marketers some of them is just found
20:42 a co-founder when these people go back
20:44 to the rest of the company they were not
20:45 included right
20:47 dear-dear sales it's like oh you just
20:50 push you just push but that's not how it
20:51 works right
20:55 mm-hmm okay I have a question about all this
20:55 this
20:58 so if labels aren't that important but
21:00 potential clients and entrepreneurs are
21:02 listening to people like Donald Miller
21:03 so in their head they're thinking
21:04 marketing marketing marketing that's
21:07 what I need but then all of us who work
21:09 on branding or calling ourselves brand
21:11 strategist or we do branding and it's
21:13 there's a disconnect then between
21:16 entrepreneurs looking for an answer in
21:18 marketing but then we're all calling it
21:21 branding would it boohoo some of us to
21:24 actually say we're a marketing firm to
21:26 then connect with and attract those
21:28 clients that are potentially looking at
21:30 and listening to people like don't yeah
21:32 I mean you can call yourself whatever
21:33 you want the proof is in the pudding
21:36 what is it that you really do what are
21:39 the functions of the company and what
21:42 are your goals so this is a question
21:44 that comes up quite a bit there if
21:46 there's this invisible pressure that
21:48 people feel in the creative space that
21:51 do more and offer more and yet we're
21:53 known we know less about the stuff that
21:55 we're doing and so calling yourself a
21:58 brand strategist a branding person a
22:00 marketer of integrated marketing
22:01 branding company you can call yourself
22:03 whatever you want but here's the problem
22:06 what is it that you really do I like to
22:09 look at it to function and then you can
22:10 design whatever label you want around it
22:13 right so if Donald Miller if Donald
22:15 Miller is out there and
22:16 he's saying these things he's just one
22:19 voice and I think we're over amplifying
22:21 the weight and influence that this one
22:24 person has because for every one Donald
22:25 Miller talked about marketing there's
22:27 probably thirty five branding people
22:29 talking about branding when you go to
22:31 design conference a very few of them are
22:33 titled like what to do with marketing
22:35 it's almost like ID any design and
22:38 branding is I know this because I go to
22:41 conferences all the time so again I just
22:44 think we're conflating like his presence
22:46 and his influence and that he has a
22:48 magical ability to reach out to all
22:50 these companies or hiring people and
22:52 then to diminish what it is that you do
22:54 at the end of day if your focus is not
22:56 to make a big impact on your clients
22:58 business you will be eventually out of
23:00 business that's it
23:03 so it's about priorities for you and I
23:05 think I mean if you call yourself a
23:09 marketing firm this implies to the
23:11 actual client that you will do social
23:13 media whatever ends with marketing right
23:14 social media marketing advertising
23:17 content marketing content marketing all
23:18 these things did you actually might not
23:20 do right so I think it would go the
23:21 wrong the wrong way they're they're
23:24 still there are all of these stickers on
23:26 the things that we do right and the
23:27 problem is like we can unpeeled and we
23:29 know what's behind but but clients don't
23:31 right so it's really difficult to to
23:34 discuss what do you do and who you are
23:36 with one label I think that's and that's
23:38 what Chris was heading to you have to
23:40 start coming up with creative ways of
23:43 describing your practice of how you help
23:46 clients you know so for us it's clarity
23:47 and focus right because that's really
23:49 why people come to me I realized they
23:50 don't come for a logo that might be an
23:52 end result right but they come for
23:54 clarity and focus yeah I speak that way
23:55 now because that resonates with them
23:58 yeah when you're speaking more towards
23:59 their problem - so you're selling the
24:01 problem you're not selling a service
24:05 yeah I learned it from Donald Mill yes
24:09 yeah I think in in his book the one-page
24:11 marketing plan written by Alan did he
24:13 describes his actually really kind of
24:15 interesting scenario he says so like the
24:17 circus is coming to town and this is
24:18 your business and you have an elephant
24:22 and you you paint or a sign on elephant
24:25 he's oh that's called promotion okay and
24:27 then you bring the elephant and March
24:28 them into town
24:31 and it happens to trample flowers that's
24:35 called publicity and then the mayor is
24:37 upset that you've trampled his flowers
24:40 but you talk it over and he's okay with it
24:40 it
24:42 that's called public relations and if
24:44 you hand out a bunch of Flyers saying
24:46 the circus is coming to town
24:50 that's called advertising and if you
24:53 have people come up to the booth near
24:56 the tent and ask questions about the
24:59 circus I think he calls that sales and
25:01 he's a if you designed the whole thing
25:04 that's called marketing so it's kind of
25:06 interesting his old definition and so I
25:08 probably messed up some parts of that
25:09 story but I remember it was like it was
25:11 a good way to look at this right and so
25:15 we're all like very inclined to like
25:17 define silos like this is my job does
25:19 what I do I only do sales and that's
25:21 probably a short-sighted thing because
25:23 this integration collaboration
25:25 co-creation is actually very important
25:27 because we're starting to realize people
25:28 buy and behave in very different ways
25:31 than they used to and so we need to work
25:34 to build more versatile units of people
25:36 collaborating and and being cross
25:38 discipline with somebody who's looking
25:40 at the bigger picture now
25:42 let's pretend I told that story
25:43 correctly and I put the labels on it
25:45 correctly what do you guys think about
25:48 that story and would you change any of
25:52 the definitions I would ask then what
25:54 how could branding be incorporated in
25:57 that no no this is a book on marketing
26:02 it wasn't you were to add to it like
26:04 what do you think where is branding in
26:06 that I asked you first
26:08 no you didn't you asked me second I
26:09 asked you guys what do you think of that
26:16 story now stop this whole conversation
26:18 is about branding and marketing yeah so
26:20 but you're part of the conversation
26:22 right so I'm asking you what do you
26:24 think about that little story okay
26:26 here's here's how we should have
26:27 compartmentalize it to make it a little
26:29 easier did any of the scenarios and the
26:31 descriptions feel like they're out of
26:36 alignment just replay it you know paint
26:38 it trample through the flowers publicity
26:40 its featured the newspaper right it's
26:41 publicity then the
26:43 Mayers not upset it's called public
26:46 relations and then you go to the tent
26:48 and that's called sales but the design
26:51 of the whole thing is called marketing
26:54 it's the high level strategic planning
26:56 of these things the execution is tactics
26:58 any of those scenarios sound like
27:01 they're off to you handing out flyers
27:04 doesn't sound like advertising it does
27:06 right it's like a reputation of a
27:09 message it's a one-way one-to-many form
27:15 of communication and I go off I like I
27:17 like your question right like how
27:19 weirdest branding fit into this right
27:20 it's always like Marsha Marsha Marsha
27:22 it's like what about me
27:24 where am I in a story can we get back to
27:26 what's important didn't she ask the
27:29 question yeah yeah no you're right yeah
27:31 the question that's all
27:34 okay yeah because because it is it is it
27:36 is you know now we compartmentalize
27:37 again right the different the different
27:40 aspects of it but but where does
27:41 branding fit into I think it's a super
27:43 interesting question and I wonder myself
27:45 right because we as branders would look
27:47 at it and like well the entire thing is
27:49 branding right I hated that right yes so
27:52 are we the ones and I believe that's how
27:54 it would be who are behind the scenes
27:58 that that the tell the elephant to start
28:01 going push right and say okay now the
28:02 elephant is ready now the elephant
28:04 represents what we wanted - elephant to
28:06 represent now the elephant looks the way
28:08 that it should look and you know it you
28:11 know pick the right elephant - yeah not
28:14 the gray one you know just make it yours
28:15 right so but but I think that that's
28:17 kind of how it fits in what do you think
28:19 it's a nice are it's just boosts our
28:22 conversation about that no no I don't I
28:24 don't know Fabian because the way I
28:25 would look at is where does the branding
28:26 person fit in
28:28 I think the branding person fits in
28:31 where you talked to the person who owns
28:34 the circus the Ringling Brothers and you
28:36 say you guys are entertainers this is
28:37 what you do this is part of your family
28:39 and you like putting on big shows like I
28:41 wonder what people like the same kinds
28:42 of things
28:44 Oh small towns they they're like looking
28:46 for a little magic and mystery I wonder
28:48 what their needs are and then you start
28:50 to align those two things and say look
28:52 there's this thing what's call it the
28:55 circus right and we can bring in something
28:55 something
28:57 like animals or maybe we can do
29:00 something like performers doing
29:02 acrobatics and tricks and lion taming
29:04 does that sound so we start to design
29:06 and craft experience and we think how
29:08 will we get the word out why don't we
29:09 bring an elephant and why don't we paint
29:11 it well what color should we use and how
29:12 should that look what kind of elephant
29:15 should we bring in and then so on and so
29:18 forth and this is if I'm listening to
29:20 you and I'm just going through your
29:22 words there it's the why like why do we
29:23 want to do this what are we trying to do
29:24 we're we're an entertainment company
29:26 well what's the look and feel it should
29:30 be a kind of very mmm it should feel
29:32 accessible it should feel friendly and
29:34 fun and joyful or maybe you should feel
29:37 European like this let's call it do
29:39 Soleil and that's what we'll do right
29:41 and we'll get rid of the animals because
29:43 people don't like animals being treated
29:46 unwell okay so that's that's what we'll
29:48 do instead of animals we'll do this and
29:50 we'll we'll use theatrics and lighting
29:53 and and pyrotechnics and hydraulics to
29:55 create the show nobody's ever seen before
29:56 before
29:58 what should we call it how should we
30:03 talk about this circus of the Sun that
30:06 sounds pretty cool let's do that let's
30:08 come up with 15 iterations of a name so
30:11 that's what branding fits in so if we
30:13 use that okay I mean I'm just using
30:16 Fabian's story here yes I think there's
30:19 a couple alternatives to that that's an
30:21 intentional one that's actually sitting
30:23 down and saying this is what we're
30:27 setting out to do and in planning all of
30:28 that and then moving forward there's the
30:32 others that do and I would say somes do
30:34 start with just the marketing they pick
30:35 a random elephant they walk them through
30:39 town and they just go for it but even in
30:40 that they're still branding that's
30:43 happening it's just not intentional
30:46 that's how I'm seeing it okay do you I
30:49 don't know look at this I do have an
30:52 opinion I'm just processing your
30:54 thoughts there let's take the same
30:56 circus thing no we know that there's
30:58 been a big shift away from the
31:00 traditional circus that we see in cinema
31:02 and the ones that are successful now
31:05 like Cirque du Soleil so let's pretend
31:07 this circus thing and and they did a
31:09 little bit the promotions that publicist
31:12 advertising all that kind of stuff and
31:14 they expected a thousand people to show
31:18 up but 400 people showed up and they
31:20 keep doing this over and over again and
31:22 so their business is dwindling doc do we
31:23 need a new logo it's like what are we
31:26 doing so they approached Fabian Design
31:28 Consulting Group right or Melinda
31:30 livesey Consulting Group and they asked
31:32 you what should we do so the Brander
31:35 says we need to rebrand let's call it
31:37 something else like how much do we
31:40 change of the clients core business to
31:42 help them the marketer would probably
31:44 say I know how to market this we gotta
31:46 get on social media there's this new
31:49 thing so each person falls back on their
31:51 discipline and what they think works but
31:53 the true person this overlap person says
31:56 I don't know people want this anymore
31:59 if you're if your joy is to entertain
32:01 people it's not through animals per se
32:03 and if this is the problem in terms of
32:07 how society is moving look what can we
32:09 do with what's core to who you are and
32:12 what people want let's get rid of
32:15 animals let's get into this business of
32:17 performing humans doing extra Norden
32:21 extraordinary feats let's do that let's
32:23 change your whole business so to me that
32:25 whether you call that branding or
32:28 marketing it doesn't really matter it's
32:30 this is what's gonna move the needle and
32:32 to me that clearly falls into the
32:34 branding aspect right when you said
32:36 let's give it a new name let's give it a
32:38 new logo I think that's how a lot of
32:40 people think about branding but really
32:40 it is
32:42 let's ask first why like why do you
32:43 exist does this make sense it's just the
32:45 right audience should we even be doing
32:46 this should we bring in right so I think
32:49 it is it is a it is not even agreement
32:51 what you're saying I understand but I
32:53 don't necessarily have the same point of view
32:54 view
32:57 I'm just saying okay let me ask you this
32:59 question if we talk about positioning as
33:02 a discipline and for our audience who
33:02 doesn't know what that might mean
33:05 positioning is the art or the strategy
33:08 of occupying a space a position in a
33:10 person's mind okay and you say that's a
33:15 vital function of branding is it is it
33:17 exclusive to branding or do people who
33:20 do marketing also do positioning mmm
33:22 true that right yeah okay
33:24 so if we were to pull our audience right
33:26 now those people who are watching this
33:28 let us know down below if you call
33:30 yourself a branding person how many of
33:33 you guys actually do positioning for
33:34 your clients and even know what the heck
33:39 that is I'm going to suspect it's gonna
33:40 drop like okay people who call
33:42 themselves branding people actually just
33:44 did logo design so that drops off most
33:45 of the people and the people who truly
33:48 do branding how many of you guys
33:50 actually think about positioning and
33:52 being strategic about that that numbers
33:53 gonna drop so now we have four people
33:56 left watching but if we were to ask
33:59 marketing people how many of you guys do
34:01 positioning I would say it's a pretty
34:02 high percentage would you agree or
34:05 disagree yeah no I totally okay yeah so
34:07 this is my own bubble with issue are
34:11 yeah so you are yourself some hybrid
34:14 graphic designer brand er brand
34:16 strategist incorporating certain facets
34:18 of marketing traditionally definitions
34:20 and so then your definition of branding
34:23 might be exclusive to you right now
34:25 because you're a unique person right
34:28 maybe a lot of unique yes not only the
34:31 glass majority right everyone who calls
34:33 themselves a brand strategist they would
34:35 they would come from the same place of
34:37 solutioning isn't an role for us to do
34:39 and the people that do brand strategy
34:41 are they're more likely to have a
34:42 background in graphic design or
34:46 marketing or sales that's an exquisite
34:48 question and I can't answer it but I
34:49 have a feeling it tends more to how its
34:51 marketing and I might think I'll tell I
34:52 don't think I don't think you're off of
34:56 that see so now we're like okay so where
34:58 we disagree and why we got all fired up
35:00 over this maybe it's like misguided in
35:02 my opinion because maybe there's some
35:04 truth to what he's saying if we just
35:07 base it on the law of averages and what
35:09 we're seeing out there today not where
35:11 it's going but where it is today in
35:13 terms like the traditional role and
35:15 responsibilities of marketing versus
35:17 branding let's just say so we still
35:18 upset at Donald Miller for saying what
35:21 he's saying oh absolutely
35:24 okay let's talk about it no no no the
35:27 things it I don't like when little you
35:30 know little YouTube clips yeah are
35:32 overly self-serve video sometimes a
35:34 little bit a little bit you know like
35:36 miss misleading
35:37 right especially in today's climate
35:40 right into saying that you should not
35:43 brand until you have 50 million five
35:44 hundred million whatever guy that just
35:46 is not correct right when it comes out
35:48 of context and it was out of context you
35:51 know and not asking the question why and
35:52 instead sending email of the email of a
35:54 email that does not make a lot of sense
35:56 to because the email needs to come from
35:59 from from a space of why right so but
36:02 other than that he is fantastic I love
36:03 his stuff but this was something good to
36:05 pick on you know because of course it
36:07 was it was getting us interested in okay
36:09 so how does this really work right Melinda
36:10 Melinda
36:15 have we put this issue to bed yes it
36:19 might wake up with a nightmare just
36:22 breathe okay well I think that's it
36:24 thank you everybody and thank you all so
36:26 Melinda and Fabian for joining me here
36:27 in the studio and having this very
36:29 thought-provoking conversation about the
36:31 differences between marketing and
36:33 branding and perhaps our instincts is to
36:35 go really kind of tribal and say this is
36:38 us this is them and it's war when we
36:39 actually step back we're all the same
36:42 family it's cousins and we're all better
36:44 off by having broader more open-minded
36:46 discussions about different disciplines
36:48 so that we can learn what to integrate
36:51 into what it is that we do for the
36:53 purpose of improving and impacting our
36:57 clients business the end with that you
