0:05 hello and welcome to the Childs podcast
0:08 my name is Tammy Shimon and today I have
0:12 Julie King and Joanna with us to talk
0:15 about some of their work and how to get
0:17 our kids listening we need our kids
0:18 listening every parent needs their kids
0:20 listening so thank you so much we're g
0:23 to dive into some great creative
0:25 strategies when our kids give us push
0:27 back and how we still stay connected
0:30 during these really hard moments I got
0:31 three kids and there is fighting in our
0:35 house and it's always always in need of
0:38 some tips and tricks and I think all all
0:42 parents are um so welcome just so
0:44 honored to have both of you agreed to
0:46 come on the podcast today thank you
0:48 thank you for having us and it's good to
0:49 hear there's fighting in your house
0:50 because that's how you know your kids
0:53 are alive oh yeah I was like there you
0:55 know you can't have Ying without Ying I
0:57 was like they love each other but of
0:58 course you know I've got the
1:00 six-year-old the 8-year-old and the
1:02 15-year-old and it's usually conflicts
1:04 around the six and 8year old because
1:08 they're so close in age um but you know
1:10 I always think of conflict as
1:13 opportunity for growth and how to
1:16 reconnect and how to make repairs and I
1:17 think that's what I really love about
1:19 your books it's very much a focus moving
1:22 away from punishment and how how to
1:24 really look at how to teach your kids
1:26 problem solving and how to stay
1:28 connected during hard moments and not
1:30 how to use fear and
1:32 coercion um during difficult parenting
1:36 moments which unfortunately often is
1:38 kind of what happens our families are
1:40 taught that we use fear and control in
1:43 order to get what we need done as
1:45 parents but that comes at a cost to kids
1:47 psychology into their mental health and
1:48 the parents mental
1:51 health so we just love your book well
1:53 there's two of your books I have one of
1:56 them with me right now uh the F now the
1:58 in let's go in order here so the first
2:01 one is that you wrote was how to talk so
2:03 little kids will listen right that was
2:06 the first one and your second book is
2:09 how to talk when kids won't listen
2:12 correct I got it right y beautiful so
2:14 what I love it's very anyone listening
2:16 their books are very practical like if
2:18 parents are like what do I do when this
2:20 happens like they've got an illustration
2:22 for that they've got dialogue for how to
2:24 navigate that and I think parents with
2:26 how crazy the world is right now and how
2:29 stressed parents are they need practical
2:31 right don't want a little bit of the
2:33 psychology is great but your books are
2:36 just very Hands-On and I found that you
2:39 know these were probably one of I don't
2:42 know this might be the most practical
2:44 parenting book next to no drama
2:46 discipline that I've seen with such like
2:48 though your book and no drama discipline
2:51 are just so concrete and so easy and
2:53 actionable you very actionable it's a
2:56 very actionable books because it can be
2:58 hard to take Theory and figure out how
3:00 to put it into practice okay so we have
3:01 some Theory but what do you actually say
3:03 in the moment that's what we're that's
3:05 what we're trying to do in our books so
3:08 I'm glad that it worked for you yeah so
3:10 you know whether it's about sibling
3:12 disputes or homework it could be really
3:14 frustrating where kids aren't listening
3:16 and then we use you know parents I mean
3:18 I'm guilty of that using threats like
3:20 when the kids won't listen I'm pretty
3:22 sure we just came back for our honeymoon
3:23 and I'm pretty sure one of my threats
3:25 was if you don't clean your room then
3:27 we're not going to Mexico that did not
3:28 go over well
3:30 well
3:32 let me tell you that did not go over
3:34 well with my highly sensitive
3:38 eight-year-old so I know better yet here
3:39 I was using this threat because we're
3:42 all stressed to get on the plane on time
3:44 um when parents have this they they're
3:47 like resorting to punishing or yelling
3:50 or you know coercion where do you even
3:53 start getting out of that pattern with
3:54 kids like where would you guys tell
3:56 parents to start if they're using that
3:59 all the time threats and screaming oh okay
4:02 okay
4:05 um that's a broad question so I'll try
4:08 to start with a broad answer which is
4:11 that I think we want to start with
4:13 focusing on the behavior and how to get
4:16 the behavior we want right you know how
4:19 do we get the kid to clean that room and
4:22 and that leads to you know coming up
4:23 with a punishment coming up with a
4:26 threat you know and and it's very
4:28 understandable because we need that
4:31 behavior um so that's what we're focused
4:35 on but it's going to help if instead of
4:37 focusing on the
4:41 behavior we think about what is going on
4:43 for the kid at that moment you know why
4:47 aren't they cleaning their room um is it
4:49 just too overwhelming and they don't
4:52 know where to start are they you know in
4:54 the middle of a video game and it's very
4:57 engaging and they can't quite stop did
4:58 they just have a fight with their older
5:03 sister and they're in a bad mood um so
5:05 you know there may have be some problem
5:07 having nothing to do with cleaning the
5:09 room and if we don't know where that
5:12 what that problem is our threats are
5:13 only going to upset the kid and you know
5:15 frankly you're not going to cancel those
5:17 plane tickets um you're probably just
5:19 going to have a kid with a
5:22 meltdown um you know so if it turns out
5:24 that that the the cleanup is
5:26 overwhelming and the kid doesn't know
5:30 where to start then we might
5:33 help them with that you know well let's
5:35 you know let's make a game of it let's
5:37 turn on some music and see if we can
5:39 pick up all the laundry and throw it in
5:42 a hamper by the end of the first song
5:44 now you have a good feeling you have a
5:47 Cooperative kid um you know you've
5:49 solved a problem instead of threatening
5:52 a punishment making your kid cry you
5:53 probably can't follow through on it
5:56 because it's non-refundable tickets but
6:00 but that's our basic rule is we try just
6:02 we try to back up a few steps and start
6:04 with how is the kid feeling what's going
6:07 on in their head instead of starting
6:10 with trying to get the behavior so what
6:13 I'm hearing is be curious about what
6:15 might be going on here it's it's kind of
6:17 like when you do I'm a in a past
6:20 lifetime I was a couples therapist and I
6:21 always would tell couples you're not
6:24 fighting about the dishwasher like
6:27 chances are you know something happened
6:29 that day or there was a rupture in your
6:31 Rel relationship and we have to stay
6:34 curious as to what might be going on for
6:37 that person what's going on for you and
6:38 that's what I'm hearing I'm hearing you
6:41 say be curious about what might this be
6:46 about yeah yeah and uh I think of it as
6:48 there's a connection between how people
6:50 feel and how people behave and we tend
6:52 to focus on the behavior when we're
6:56 looking at our kids but if we think for
6:58 ourselves when do we when are we not our
7:01 best selves as parents right I mean you
7:03 just told us I yelled at them and
7:06 threatened them about going to Mexico
7:09 when I knew we're going to go right like
7:10 what was going on for you I'm just gonna
7:12 guess even though I wasn't there in your
7:15 body in your house that you were feeling
7:17 really anxious about making the plane
7:20 and about getting everything done before
7:22 you had to go and H leaving the house in
7:24 some sort of semblance of order so when
7:26 you came back it wasn't in chaos you
7:28 know and probably there were details
7:31 about the and the and the you know all
7:32 the things that were going on in your
7:36 head about the planning and uh oh
7:38 there's this there's this obstacle in
7:39 our way to getting to the airport my
7:41 kids's not doing what I need them to do
7:44 but you felt stressed about it right
7:47 probably and on another day when things
7:49 were calm and there was no time pressure
7:51 and there wasn't a wedding to try to get
7:53 to you would have handled it differently
7:56 right oh yeah I I was a mess for three
7:58 days until the wedding happened and of
8:00 course and my kids are perfect angels
8:03 once the wedding happened but they kids
8:05 pick up on our stuff too so what I'm
8:07 hearing is just that reflection parents
8:10 need to pause and say you know is my
8:12 reaction coming from my own stress and
8:16 my own life circumstances and you know
8:18 sometimes really small things cast a
8:20 really big Shadow when we have things
8:23 going on for us yeah we we like to say
8:25 that you know kids can't act right when
8:29 they don't feel right and people can't
8:31 act right when they don't feel right you
8:35 know such as ourselves even grownups so
8:38 so we we start with the feeling and we
8:40 move from there and it kind of seems
8:43 like the long way around you know it
8:45 seems more direct to just say you know
8:47 get this the next time I walk down this
8:49 Hall the room better be clean or else
8:52 but you know sometimes the longer way
8:54 actually turns out to be the shorter way
8:56 because when everybody feels better they
8:59 feel cooperative and things get done and
9:01 then the stress goes
9:03 down Okay so let's just roll with this
9:06 let's let's let's let's dissect that
9:08 interaction with my daughter that's fun
9:10 let's do that I'm sure she'll look back
9:11 on this one Dan said mom why did you do
9:15 that um so obviously my reaction about
9:18 my daughter not her room is a disaster
9:19 and like there's clothes everywhere and
9:22 I'm like we need to like we got to go
9:24 got to go in this you know this trip and
9:27 um I'm coercing her like basically
9:28 threatening her and that obviously is
9:30 not a good idea I know better it's not
9:32 my proudest parenting moment but let's
9:34 just air this all out to everybody who
9:37 listens what would you say based on your
9:40 your books your work what could I have
9:42 done differently in that moment let's
9:45 just make a guinea pig out of
9:48 me well I'm torn R could go in two
9:50 directions I can give you some ideas but
9:52 it really would help me to know why you
9:55 wanted her to clean it up so tell me can
9:57 you you tell me that first oh yeah I
10:00 would say it was we knew we had house
10:02 sitters coming and I didn't want the
10:04 house a mess cuz they're taking care of
10:06 it I had asked her several times to
10:07 clean her room before that and she
10:10 didn't obviously follow through with
10:13 that and we knew we had other things to
10:16 get done and we couldn't move on until
10:18 we had had this thing done because
10:20 somewhere in that heaping pile of mess
10:21 were her clothes she was taking to
10:29 had okay okay and she's eight right
10:33 yes so that gives me a little bit of a
10:35 better understanding of where she might
10:37 be coming from and why yet you you care
10:38 so much because when you told me the
10:41 story I I was making up my own reasons
10:42 why it needed to be cleaned up but they
10:44 weren't the same as your reasons and I'm
10:47 not sure she would know either um so
10:49 let's think about what's going on for
10:51 her well actually let me just ask you
10:54 why do you think she didn't clean up
10:57 like she's she was excited like there's
11:00 overwhelm there's you know a little
11:02 angst she's a little angsty she's highly
11:03 sensitive if you guys are familiar with
11:05 the term highly sensitive so she's
11:08 picking up on my feelings my H now
11:12 husband's feelings just everything and
11:13 she's kind of a messy kid anyway for
11:17 being honest like it is what it is um so
11:19 that's not her default setting to keep a
11:21 clean room in the first place but yeah
11:23 and of course I'm the parent who's like
11:25 it's your room normally I give them
11:27 space to keep their room like as is and
11:29 all of a sudden I'm asking like you need
11:31 to do this now and normally I'm pretty
11:33 much like it's your room it's fine keep
11:35 it somewhat manageable so I think maybe
11:37 the the expectations all the sudden
11:39 slapped her in the face and she's like
11:40 why do I need to do this now normally
11:42 you don't like you're not on me about my
11:43 room and all of a sudden I was on her
11:47 about the room yeah yeah okay so that's
11:49 where I would start is to acknowledge
11:51 what was going on for her this seems
11:53 kind of odd doesn't it that I'm asking
11:55 you to clean up your room normally I
11:58 don't right and let her I would let her
12:00 say yeah yeah Mom like what's the big
12:03 deal why can't I just close the door
12:05 right it just would be our Norm I I'm a
12:07 big fan of sunone listening I'm a big
12:09 fan of kids being able to keep their
12:11 rooms like it's their room it's their
12:14 clothes it's their things so no I don't
12:16 usually I'm not super huge on that I
12:18 mean common spaces are one thing but the
12:21 rooms are another so yeah but yeah this
12:24 so so but if you said that to her if you
12:26 actually said this might this might seem
12:28 kind of odd that I'm asking you to clean
12:29 it up and maybe you don't really like
12:31 that idea because usually it's supposed
12:34 to be your your room you decide then and
12:36 then here's the hard part as the parent
12:38 you pause and let her you know listen to
12:40 what she has to say and sounds like
12:42 she's gonna say yeah I you always say
12:44 it's my room I get to decide why do I
12:45 have to clean up now why are you making
12:47 such a big deal about it why you know
12:48 why can't I just leave I'll just close
12:51 the door why do I have to clean it
12:53 up absolutely and she would have done
12:55 really well with that hindsight she's
12:57 very a very communicative little little
13:01 girl yeah um but and normally we don't
13:02 resort to punishments because that we
13:04 know that does not work for highly
13:05 especially highly sensitive children
13:06 like they pick up on emotions too
13:08 quickly and they get flooded very very
13:13 easily yeah um uh yeah you did have some
13:14 reason that you gave me that because I
13:15 was actually listening like why are you
13:17 making your because I did the same thing
13:18 it's your room you know we'll cut this
13:20 we'll shut the door but you said
13:22 something about the house sitters and I
13:23 was like is that a real reason or is
13:25 that just like you're a little bit
13:26 uncomfortable that they're going to see
13:29 this like yeah oh yeah the perfectionist
13:31 to me is like we have company coming
13:32 over essentially and they're going to
13:36 see this mess and yeah I think I I you
13:38 know as a parent we're just being I've
13:39 never done this in a podcast I've never
13:41 like aired this out being like here's my
13:45 parenting issues guys yeah I I knew and
13:48 uh then of course I reacted and she
13:50 didn't listen because she was crying and
13:53 it would did not get done until what we
13:54 would have done which is what you should
13:55 done is
13:58 connect and sit with her and let the big
14:01 feelings happen and then well you also
14:04 have a plane to catch though so I'm I'm
14:06 like move it forward so so once you give
14:08 that pause and let your kid say whatever
14:11 she says then you can acknowledge that
14:13 say like oh so it doesn't even seem fair
14:15 to you because it's like I'm changing
14:16 the rules all of a sudden she's like
14:19 yeah it doesn't seem fair and then and
14:22 then you can now that you've listened to
14:25 her feelings and restated them and
14:29 acknowledged them now her mind is open
14:32 to hearing your feelings and then you
14:35 can say you know how it is for me I'm
14:38 you know and and she probably say how
14:40 and you can say you know I'm anxious
14:44 about getting to the plane on time I'm
14:46 you know worried about you know being
14:48 able you being able to see what you need
14:50 to pack which is under some of this
14:53 stuff and and not missing something and
14:55 ending up in Mexico you know with things
14:58 missing and and I also want to leave a
15:01 neat house for the house sitters because
15:02 it I just
15:06 do um so what should we do you know how
15:08 do you want to do this you know should
15:10 we put a put out a box that you can
15:12 throw your toys into should we put on
15:16 music I'm all about um you know come up
15:19 you know see what she wants to do see if
15:21 she comes up with an idea you know do
15:23 you want to put on a favorite song do
15:24 you want to to do you think we should
15:27 toss the laundry first or or the toys
15:31 first and you can start once you've
15:34 heard her and she's heard you you can
15:36 start moving towards Solutions you don't
15:38 have to say well my kid wants a messy
15:42 room so I guess that's what she gets um
15:45 you can still prefer to leave a clean
15:47 house for the house sitters and prefer
15:49 to have some kind of
15:52 organization um and it's going to take a
15:56 little more time out of your precious
15:57 you know window where you're trying to
15:59 get ready for the plane but then you're
16:02 going to have a Cooperative kid because
16:04 you listen to her you acknowledge her
16:06 feelings you told her your feelings
16:08 instead of threatening to punish her and
16:10 then you help her move on with some
16:13 choices tossing things is good music is
16:16 good um you know clean up all the green
16:17 things first you know how do you want to
16:21 do it uh yeah you guys got have wrote a
16:22 book on couples therapy this is the
16:24 strategies I would say I'm gonna take
16:26 that home and when I want me get my
16:27 husband to do something I'm gonna be
16:29 like we're gonna do that I'm going to
16:30 tell him my feelings he can share his
16:33 feelings and then we collaborate and say
16:34 here are some ways maybe do you have
16:37 ideas I have some ideas this sounds like
16:40 it it's practical across oh and I have
16:41 to say one more thing about cleaning up
16:44 because you know this is this is a big
16:46 thing for me I was also a person who let
16:48 the kids keep the room however they
16:51 wanted but when we had people coming you
16:52 know a bunch of people like oh it's
16:54 going to be Thanksgiving or you have a
16:57 uh for whatever reason I like the house
16:59 to be a little bit neat you know people
17:00 are going to come with their own stuff
17:03 put it on the counters people kids want
17:06 to come play in your room it's just
17:10 nicer um so I would you know Institute
17:13 these anxiety fueled cleanups and one of
17:17 my pitfalls was I would come in and the
17:18 kid would have
17:20 done something you know like they picked
17:21 up their dirty clothes and put away the
17:25 books but there's still tools and
17:27 crumpled papers all over the floor and
17:29 dirt and and I would say like whatat are
17:30 you doing sitting in your bed reading a
17:32 book you know the room is still a mess
17:34 look you know you can't walk through
17:38 here without slicing your foot open
17:41 uh and that was never helpful because
17:43 then a kid feels like well I made effort
17:46 and then I got yelled at so you know one
17:48 of the things we say in our book is
17:53 describe progress so if I was mindful
17:55 enough to think a little bit before I
17:58 open my mouth and frustration I would
18:02 say oh I see you got all the books away
18:04 and all the laundry and the laundry bin
18:07 now all that needs to be done is for the
18:10 tools to go in the tool chest and a
18:13 little bit of sweeping and this room
18:16 will be ready for home beautiful so if
18:18 you can describe with pleasure and
18:21 appreciation what the kid has
18:23 accomplished instead of attacking them
18:26 for not finishing the do job it will
18:28 give them the oomph to go on and finish
18:30 the job because who Among Us would
18:32 appreciate that you know if we did a
18:34 bunch of pots and pans and then and then
18:36 your partner comes in and says this
18:37 kitchen's still a filthy
18:39 mess you know you haven't cleared the
18:42 table you know that would really I would
18:45 I would stomp out yeah I think you get
18:48 like when you focus on catching them
18:49 being good I like my favorite thing with
18:51 my kids is you catch them being
18:53 cooperative catch them putting an effort
18:55 it puts them in that mode to follow your
18:57 lead because they're saying oh like Mom
18:59 or Dad notices these things they
19:01 appreciate it and then you're you're
19:03 cultivating like those positive habits
19:05 and kids too when you're and they're
19:07 just more likely to say yes they're when
19:10 they're being praised and they're and
19:12 you're noticing effort and they feel
19:14 visible and when kids feel visible
19:16 instead of shamed I think that puts them
19:18 in a receptive mode to follow our lead
19:20 is what I'm hearing when you're giving
19:21 that kind of
19:24 feedback yeah now let's talk about a
19:26 really specific issue that's you know
19:29 very relevant to to today's day and age
19:31 which are technology
19:34 disputes um I'm guessing like we're when
19:35 we're talking our kids it's you know
19:37 turning off the video games or putting
19:40 away the cell phone or they've had
19:43 enough iPad time um and it's time to to
19:45 shut that off and of course we know
19:48 attack kids escalate very quickly and oh
19:50 just five more minutes or I don't want
19:53 to turn it off or why can't I be on it
19:55 for you know teenagers want to connect
19:57 with their friends what Guidance Do you
19:58 have to parents who are really
20:00 struggling with that like getting their
20:03 kids you know to turn them off or to get
20:06 some space away from it I I believe you
20:08 guys a lot of people praised your book
20:09 for talking about
20:13 that it's a huge challenge for parents
20:16 we actually have a chapter in our new
20:18 book is it one chapter or two because
20:21 two chapters two chapters um because we
20:22 realize it's different depending on the
20:25 age of the kid but you know we always
20:26 like to start to think about okay what
20:30 is this issue like kids now think about
20:32 especially your little kids who they
20:35 have Play-Doh and they have soccer balls
20:38 and then they have the iPad and the the
20:43 the screens are the only toy the only
20:45 object thing that we give to them and
20:47 then we say but don't play it for too
20:49 long it's not good for you we never say
20:50 now this Play-Doh is really fun but
20:53 don't play it for too long don't play
20:55 soccer you're right you're right that's
20:57 a really good perspective cuz no I don't
20:59 ever tell my kids you can't keep making
21:01 art you can't I mean unless it's dinner
21:03 time but I don't put those kind of
21:06 guidelines on it will rot your
21:09 brains yeah like and it's it's really
21:12 cool but don't do too much of it yeah so
21:14 that's really confusing to a kid right
21:16 they think well I always explore
21:19 everything else why why not this and it
21:21 seems really cool you can sit there and
21:24 it has lights and colors and so many
21:26 different kinds of games and it's
21:27 challenging and it's just the right
21:29 challenge because if it isn't you change
21:34 it right um so I think that is I think
21:37 it's it's helpful to remember that
21:39 that's how a child experiences our our
21:41 attempts to limit their screen time like
21:43 it just doesn't seem to make sense to
21:48 them right um for younger kids we can
21:51 actually control their access and just
21:53 as the the other thing that we probably
21:55 don't give them unlimited access to is
21:57 like sweet so I just think it's really
22:00 helpful to think to compare what we do
22:02 with sweets that we don't want them to
22:06 have too much of and screens we don't we
22:09 you know we we limit their access like
22:11 we don't put a big bowl of chocolates on
22:14 at least I didn't but put a big bowl of
22:16 chocolates on the counter and say okay
22:18 but don't eat these you can have one
22:20 that's it you know even I would have a
22:23 hard time if you said you know here's
22:25 the chocolates don't eat them cuz then
22:26 you're like what are you thinking about
22:28 all day long like okay there's a
22:29 chocolate okay I'm not eating it I'm
22:32 need really like a lot of effort to not
22:36 eat it it's just very tempting right so
22:38 we have a lot of examples in our book
22:40 about what parents have done in terms of
22:43 rules around screen time and how they
22:45 can get their kids on board with those
22:47 instead of just making them feeling
22:50 resentful and like deprived because I want
22:52 want
22:54 it uh and one of the things I suggest
22:57 for for parents of younger kids is to
23:00 talk talk about what they can do not in
23:02 terms of minutes because a child doesn't
23:04 have a strong sense of what's five
23:06 minutes or 10 minutes and besides if
23:07 they're playing a game or they're
23:08 watching a video they want to get to the
23:10 end they don't want to play for five
23:12 minutes they want to play till it's over
23:15 now of course with a video it's a little
23:16 bit easier because there is an end point
23:18 and if you can get in there before the
23:20 next video comes up which is you know we
23:23 could discuss about that problem right
23:24 they've intentionally created these
23:25 programs where they immediately see
23:27 another one well if we can say we're
23:29 going to stop at the end and we stop it
23:30 that's a lot easier for a kid than
23:32 saying well you have you you have 20
23:33 minutes and then that's it and then
23:35 you've got a 23 minute video and like
23:38 who likes that
23:42 um the the challenge comes with games
23:44 which some of which are designed to
23:46 never end you know you get to the to one
23:47 level and then you want to get to the
23:49 next level and I remember when my kids
23:51 were little they'd say but I'll lose my
23:54 points if I stop in the middle right so
23:57 we can help them find a stopping point
23:58 rather than just giving them a number of
24:00 minutes because then they really are
24:01 stopping you know right in the middle of
24:04 the level or whatever you know um but
24:05 the other thing that could also help
24:07 especially for younger children is to
24:09 let them know what's going to come next
24:11 because if you think about the
24:14 experience of a child on an iPad doing
24:16 something really stimulating and
24:19 interesting when they turn it off now
24:22 you've got a black screen now you've got
24:25 a a world that's just immobile and plain
24:27 and boring right and they're like I want
24:28 to go back on the iPad that was
24:31 interesting so if we say hey it's time
24:34 to go go outside and blow bubbles and
24:35 see if you can pop them with your nose
24:38 right or something something for them to
24:40 you know know like look forward to to
24:41 know what's coming next that's a lot
24:43 easier because the
24:47 transition from playing on the screen to
24:48 be coming back into you know real life
24:51 as we say that can be a tough one we can
24:53 help them with that transition so they
24:54 have something to look forward to it's
24:57 not just a stopping of something fun but
24:58 it's a moving on to something else
25:01 that's fun beautiful yeah I think with
25:04 my kids they want it's like oh I just
25:06 need to I don't know Minecraft I need to
25:08 get the sheep or I need to build this
25:10 and it's like okay well it's because I
25:12 know if I let them play all day they
25:16 would um but giving them us a little bit
25:17 of autonomy like you said picking an
25:21 endpoint I also have my kids set timers
25:22 and I know that's still time but they
25:24 like that where they set it and then
25:25 there's it teaches them a little bit of
25:27 accountability like you set the timer it
25:29 goes off and yeah like it might take a
25:30 minute or two to finish something up but
25:33 they essentially they know that this is
25:36 this is their time um so essentially
25:37 what you're doing is you're saying when
25:38 the timer goes off you have to find a
25:40 stopping point and it sounds like
25:41 they're able to do that without within a
25:44 minute or two well after some training
25:46 it didn't work right it didn't but also
25:48 what you're doing is something more
25:51 profound I think which is you're putting
25:54 the child in charge and you're teaching
25:56 them an important skill which is how do
26:00 you man manage this like frankly
26:03 addictive you know technology how how
26:05 you know without an adult hanging over
26:07 you and saying you have to stop now you
26:10 know how do you how do you regulate
26:11 yourself how do you take responsibility
26:13 for it and when they're setting their
26:17 own timer and keeping an eye on it and
26:18 you know then maybe going a few minutes
26:21 over to finish their level they're in
26:23 charge and that's so much them telling
26:26 themselves what to do is so much better
26:28 than us telling them what to do on on
26:31 two levels one is it's you know now it's
26:34 not a fight for us and the other is
26:36 you're really teaching
26:39 them how to behave in the world because
26:42 we adults have to Grapple with the same
26:45 problem I think what the and I know you
26:48 talk about this in in your books is
26:50 giving kids autonomy and giving them a
26:53 chance to express their feelings as big
26:54 and when kids understand our reasoning
26:55 because when we're thinking about like
26:58 the technology fight when I was able
26:59 like I literally have pictures of brain
27:02 scans of like what radiation looks like
27:04 when kids are on a screen so my kids
27:07 know I was able to get those from um
27:09 from a doctor a matter a number of years
27:12 ago and my kids understand why technolog
27:13 is addictive they understand what
27:15 cortisol is it's a stress hormone that
27:17 we get lots of it when we're on a screen
27:20 they understand what dopamine is so for
27:22 my kids it's just like sugar they
27:24 understand that the little bugs in their
27:25 stomach and their microbiome in their
27:26 stomach if they eat too much sugar it
27:28 makes those like little bugs really
27:30 unhappy and then their brains aren't
27:32 healthy so I spend time and I really
27:34 recommend this to parents as a child
27:37 psychologist is explain to kids why you
27:39 have these rules and not be something
27:40 completely mundane that kids can't
27:43 relate to it's like for sugar it's like
27:44 you want your body healthy this is what
27:46 happens in your gut and this is why we
27:48 don't put too much sugar in it because
27:50 then your brain's not healthy like my
27:52 kids even at six can understand that and
27:54 the same with the tech they understand
27:57 like we know this shrinks the brain it
27:59 it decreases the mass in your brain it
28:02 creates stress hormones it's addictive
28:04 it's similar to why adults get addicted
28:07 to cigarettes like we talk about that
28:09 and I have found as a parent that is
28:12 profoundly effective when you can give
28:15 kids reasons for your rules that they
28:17 can be like and we we talk about it and
28:19 it's it's like because I want to protect
28:21 your brain buddy like this is not trying
28:24 to be the mean mom I want you to have a
28:26 healthy brain and and you're giving them
28:27 the information you're not just giving
28:28 them reasons you're giving them
28:30 information you're giving them the power
28:33 to understand it for themselves yeah
28:36 yeah and I think that's important is
28:39 your books talk about just it's not just
28:40 how to order your kids around that's not
28:42 what you're implying you're talking
28:44 about how to have conversations with our
28:48 kids and getting them involved in
28:51 disputes going on um and I know when we
28:54 talk like in your book how to talk so
28:56 little kids will listen you have these
29:00 like five concrete steps for um for when
29:02 there's disputes and we were talking
29:04 earlier about like when my son and
29:06 daughter get into an argument and I was
29:09 thinking like how I would Implement some
29:11 of these um you do you have these five
29:13 steps so why don't we like really
29:15 quickly like in five minutes go through
29:16 this particular one because I think it
29:19 wraps into the how we talk to kids and
29:22 how to walk them through conflict um I
29:24 better look at the steps yeah I've got
29:26 the book here
29:29 too um so we'll say we and we'll walk so
29:31 just so I'll do a quick summary for all
29:33 our listeners the steps are express your
29:36 feelings strongly show your child how to
29:38 make amends offer a choice take action
29:40 without insult and then you can move on
29:41 to problem solving and there's five
29:43 steps to your problem solving as well so
29:45 I don't know if these are steps so much
29:47 as like tools so there's five tools and
29:49 there's five steps to your last tool
29:51 which is problem solving um so an
29:54 example of like my son and daughter uh
29:58 maybe they were playing Lego and my son
30:00 because he is a bulldozer like knocks
30:02 over my daughter's Lego Tower and now
30:04 she is all upset because she works so
30:07 hard on it and there's big tears and she
30:09 yells at him you're the worst brother in
30:11 the world I hate you we have literally
30:12 had this conversation in our house so
30:15 let's let's go with that so when we look
30:17 at page 132 of your book and we look at
30:19 some of these tools why don't you walk
30:21 through a couple of these or all of them
30:23 if we have the time we'll try to keep it
30:26 under five minutes um how you would talk
30:28 to how I should maybe talk to my kids
30:30 when that would happen big fight worst
30:33 brother in the world Lego tower is
30:35 destroyed oh and and how is and how is
30:37 your son responding to being called the
30:40 worst is he upset or is yeah he loves
30:42 his sister and he didn't you know like
30:44 he would just be like she's mad at me
30:47 and you know he would be he would not
30:49 yeah he would feel really bad like he
30:52 would not know yeah what to do he would
30:53 probably be
30:56 like he's not the kid who's going to hit
30:57 like he's not going to be aggressive
30:59 that way way I mean I I think I would
31:01 want to start by
31:06 um reframing your daughter's insults
31:09 towards your son as as her strong
31:11 feelings and I think those are the
31:12 biggest feelings going on so you're
31:16 going to start with that and and I'll
31:19 make up a name you know I like Rachel
31:23 Rachel is really upset she worked for a
31:25 half an hour building this Tower and
31:28 youed so many
31:31 tiny little bricks and put them together
31:34 in careful ways and with one swipe it's
31:37 all over the floor that was a lot of
31:39 work that's so
31:42 frustrating so now you're speaking for
31:46 her and she's going to appreciate that
31:49 and then your son gets to hear how she
31:51 feels without the insults you know
31:53 you're the worst brother
31:55 ever yeah and not and not without you're
31:57 not shaming him you're just saying this
31:59 happened this happened you're describing
32:02 the scene and you're also validating her
32:04 and and your daughter might chime in and
32:06 she might say yeah and I you know and it
32:08 wasn't easy to get this and this
32:10 together and I was trying to make a that
32:12 and and you can just keep acknowledging
32:14 that oh so you were trying to make that
32:16 and you were putting this together and
32:18 that was not easy
32:20 easy
32:24 um and then you can say you know and Leo
32:26 you know wanted to touch it because it
32:29 was a beautiful building and it he you
32:31 know didn't mean for it to fall apart
32:33 that was not in his
32:35 plan and he can and then maybe your son
32:38 will say you know what would he say he'd
32:40 say yeah I just wanted to see what it
32:42 felt like I didn't know it was gonna
32:44 fall over I just wanted to fly the
32:48 spaceship that's why I threw it yeah or
32:51 it was it was an accident and yeah he
32:53 would yeah he's a little guy who
32:56 wouldn't knock it over on purpose but
33:01 and so so here now instead of instead of
33:04 you know have in you're you're basically
33:07 modeling for them how they can talk
33:09 about their feelings to each other
33:11 without attacking each other with fists
33:15 or with words so that would be the first
33:20 step and then boy Leo's feeling bad and
33:22 Rachel's feeling I'm making up names
33:25 here angry so how can we you know is
33:27 there any way to fix it you know Leo can
33:29 you find the little pieces where did
33:31 this go
33:34 um instead of thinking about punishing
33:37 the child who did wrong we always want
33:39 to think
33:42 about how can we help this child fix
33:45 what he did wrong that's the making am
33:47 men's step that's the making a men's
33:50 part so instead of feeling bad about
33:51 himself or
33:54 resentful he can start to feel good
33:57 about himself and reconnect right so
33:59 would you say when you're using this
34:01 strategy would you leave it up to them
34:03 to come up with a few ideas or would you
34:07 coach them through and give them the
34:09 choices does that make sense like
34:13 where yeah I think it depends on whether
34:15 you know whether they have the you know
34:17 the capacity to come up with an idea
34:19 some little kids need some ideas of you
34:21 know I think I think what would help
34:23 right now is see if you can bring all
34:25 those blocks to all those Lego pieces
34:28 together so she can you know and ask her
34:30 if she she wants you to help her rebuild
34:32 it you know if what if he what if she
34:36 had gotten knocked over and she got hurt
34:37 you might say I think you know do what
34:38 do you think will help do you think she
34:40 she would like a Band-Aid would it help
34:41 to get her a glass of water my kids
34:45 always got ice when somebody got hurt um
34:47 so I think it very much depends on
34:50 whether they have the ability to come up
34:53 with an idea or not if they can in that
34:54 moment think of something sometimes when
34:56 kids are you know especially when kids
34:58 do something that they didn't really
35:00 anticipate it was going to cause the
35:02 disruption or the pain that it is
35:05 they're sort of Frozen in Time like I
35:06 don't know what to do I didn't mean to
35:07 do that I don't know what to do and if
35:08 you say I think I think she would really
35:10 like to have a piece of ice they're like
35:13 oh okay ice I'll go get it I'm like K
35:16 get my favorite thing to do is because
35:18 I'll say I can see it was an accident
35:21 but your sister's really hurt um is to
35:23 say how are you going to make this right
35:25 because she's really hurt right now and
35:27 I I love that strategy isn't and
35:28 sometimes they don't know and they and
35:29 then they you could just see them
35:30 they're like I don't know what to do
35:33 like would you like some ideas of how
35:34 maybe we could make this right and and
35:35 what I love is you guys are big on
35:38 choices in your book so it's giving that
35:40 autonomy back to them and having them
35:42 take ownership over the conflict instead
35:45 of just like apologize to your sister
35:46 right now like blah blah blah how dare
35:49 you do that you know um which just shuts
35:51 kids down and kids don't like forced
35:53 apologies like that like it's it's not
35:55 the research would say that's not super
35:57 effective it's not satisfying to the
35:59 person you're apologizing to either to
36:02 hear a forced apology right that can
36:04 that can be irritating so it's not
36:07 really helping anybody but if if we can
36:09 find something as you said what can we
36:11 do to make this right what can we do to
36:13 make it better if you can find something
36:16 that will actually make it better that's
36:19 that's a great first step to making
36:22 amends and we notice from talking to a
36:24 lot of families and in our own families
36:26 that not only sometimes will kids freeze
36:29 up but sometimes they'll run away or
36:34 even laugh and you know which which you
36:36 know makes tends to make parents and the
36:39 injured sibling even more angry because
36:41 like wow you really don't care but
36:43 they'll be doing that out of nervousness
36:46 and fear that everyone's angry at me and
36:48 when you give them something to do to
36:51 make it right and to help you'll you'll
36:53 see a very different side of your
36:56 child yeah these conflicts this conflict
36:58 resolution U with with my kids anyway
37:00 often takes time like it's cuz one does
37:02 often runs away and they're in the room
37:04 crying and they won't let their sibling
37:05 in so we can't even do a repair right
37:07 away we have to let the dust settle a
37:10 little bit and then we do you know I'm
37:12 with say in this case it would be my son
37:14 and I would say you know her feelings
37:15 really hurt she's in her room crying I
37:17 wonder how we can make this right and
37:19 then he'll because we've Co done enough
37:21 coaching he has like a menu of things he
37:23 can do to make this right his favorite
37:25 is to write an apology note to her and
37:28 slide it under her door and again lots
37:30 of coaching over the years of what we
37:31 can do like when we hurt someone's
37:34 feelings or you know they do something
37:37 that we don't mean to do and that always
37:39 is better than on the moment being like
37:41 say sorry like it's it feels inauthentic
37:44 and it's not received well like because
37:46 it's course that's like coursing a child
37:47 to say that and it's not that we don't
37:49 encourage in our home apologies but it
37:51 should be meaningful and until you
37:54 really teach kids how their actions have
37:55 impacted the other one and sometimes I
37:57 would add to that would be can you think
37:59 of a time you felt that way like you
38:01 worked really hard on something and
38:03 someone it got wrecked how did that feel
38:06 oh I felt really sad and then when you
38:08 can put them somewhat proverbially in
38:10 the other child's shoes then that can
38:13 help as well can you think of a time and
38:16 I would just add that if you find that
38:18 your child isn't ready to do that if
38:21 your child isn't ready to say I think
38:23 this is how she felt when that happened
38:27 it's often because in this case your son
38:29 needs some time to process how he feels
38:32 and needs you to get how he feels first
38:33 you know and if he feels like that
38:35 wasn't fair I didn't mean to do that
38:37 that was an accident and then I got
38:39 yelled at and now I feel bad about
38:41 myself or shame or whatever it
38:44 is that feel it can be helpful to start
38:47 there you didn't want that to happen you
38:49 were just trying to see how it worked
38:50 you didn't know it was going to fall
38:52 apart when you threw it you know
38:54 anything like that so that he feels
38:57 understood first and then it'll be
38:59 easier for him to see it yeah and in
39:01 this case both kids would have been hurt
39:03 because he she said some hurtful things
39:05 to him like you're the worst brother in
39:07 the world I hate you she's feeling like
39:10 her space wasn't respected and her
39:12 things are damaged and so we've got two
39:14 kids who are hurt now so there's you
39:15 know a little bit of dance you've got to
39:18 do with both kids is and that's usually
39:20 the case with sibling conflict I find
39:22 there's two kids usually and there's a
39:24 dance that happens everybody everybody's
39:28 hurting and if we want our kids to put
39:30 themselves in the other person's shoes
39:32 the first thing we have to do is put
39:35 ourselves in their shoes because that
39:38 models it for them and allows them to do
39:41 that otherwise they'll be stuck in their
39:43 you know in their own distress and when
39:45 you're stuck in your own distress it's
39:47 virtually impossible to take the other
39:50 person's perspective yeah you can't be
39:52 empathic in that moment just because
39:53 we're we're so
39:55 disregulated so we're at the end of our
39:57 podcast I just wanted to to make sure um
39:59 people know your work I have you're
40:01 going to have to the I'll have your one
40:04 book with me not the other so their
40:06 books are the first again hope I get it
40:08 right the first was how to talk so
40:10 little kids will listen what age would
40:13 you say this is the best for what it's
40:15 for ages two to s in fact our subtitle
40:19 is a survival guide to children ages two
40:21 to seven I my glasses
40:25 on yeah so our second book is how to
40:28 talk so sorry how to talk when kids
40:30 won't listen and the subtitle of that
40:33 book is whining fighting meltdowns
40:35 Defiance and other challenges of
40:37 childhood and that one covers a wider
40:39 age range it goes from preschool all the
40:43 way through you know early teens awesome
40:45 and like I said anybody listening their
40:47 work is really concrete they have these
40:50 cool illustrations with like cartoony
40:52 things and you can think I don't know to
40:54 me it's like actionable steps which I
40:55 always so appreciate because when you're
40:57 in the middle of parenting and you're
40:58 all stressed out like you're like I
41:00 don't want to read 20 pages to get to
41:02 one strategy you're like I need a tool
41:05 right now to use so thank you for
41:07 writing a book that is so practical for
41:10 parents yes thank book let me also
41:13 mention for people who want to get want
41:15 the summary the real summary version if
41:16 you've read our books and you still want
41:18 to be able to carry the tools around we
41:20 have an app that you can put on your
41:25 phone it's called how to talk parenting
41:27 tips in your pocket and it's available
41:30 for both IOS and Android and you can
41:32 take a look at it for free I think it's
41:35 like $3.99 to buy it um but it it takes
41:37 all of the tools and it asks you some
41:39 questions to quickly get you to the
41:41 relevant tools that will be helpful very
41:44 cool like are your kids fighting is your
41:46 kid crying and then you you click on
41:48 that and it's sort of a 20 questions and
41:50 then it will pop up with with what tool
41:52 you can use all right I'm downloading
41:54 that that sounds amazing we'll put that
41:56 as a resource on our website uh thank
41:59 you ladies so much um just we're really
42:02 excited because Julie I believe is
42:05 speaking at our conference uh April 21st
42:08 to 22nd so you'll go more in depth like
42:10 than our time today which is only about
42:12 third well I guess we've gone 40 minutes
42:14 now Tanya is gonna be like 30 minutes
42:17 and I never can keep it to 30 minutes
42:19 just way too long
42:22 when so we'll get to hear more Julie
42:24 from you then on are we talk are you
42:26 talking about which Booker are you going
42:28 to be talking speaking well I'm gon I'm
42:30 going to be talking about the whole
42:31 concept how to talk so kids will listen
42:33 so I'm going to cover slightly wider age
42:35 range but it's going to be the same
42:37 tools but we'll yeah we'll go into depth
42:39 and I'll do some practice exercises with
42:42 people beautiful I love that okay ladies
42:46 thank you again so much for today um it
42:48 was just just wonderful you guys have
42:50 got a great sense of humor thank you for
42:53 dissecting my children for me I hope
42:55 that it's always you doesn't matter you
42:57 know I've been working with kids for
42:59 over a decade in therapy and it's
43:02 different when it's your kids and kids
43:03 are melting down they're fighting and
43:05 you're I'm in the middle of planning a
43:08 wedding and I'm stressed out and these
43:10 things happen and even the most
43:12 conscientious self-aware parents are
43:13 going to screw up and I always want to
43:15 give lots of space for that that no one
43:18 does this perfectly absolutely we're all
43:21 growing Dr Gat Ed my mother's Mentor Dr
43:25 G Gat used to say we aim for 70%
43:28 sometimes 50% % is all we can manage and
43:31 even 10% can make a real difference in a
43:34 relationship so you know you're not
43:36 expected to be
43:41 perfect beautiful all right so I well I
43:42 hope everyone gets a chance to look at
43:44 their app and their two books and again
43:46 ladies thank you so much for joining me
43:48 today thank you for having
