0:11 Well, the Biz News tribe was treated to
0:14 a fabulous piece. David Shapiro is well
0:17 known as a broadcaster. And I I say
0:18 that, Dave, because you and I worked
0:21 together, sure, for 15 years on national
0:24 radio. every night Monday to Friday.
0:27 There you were coming into the studio uh
0:30 chatting away in giving us your insights
0:33 into what's been going on in the markets
0:37 on that day and well the wisdom appears
0:39 to have just grown and grown but I think
0:40 a lot of people don't know the other
0:43 side to you. You're a you're a wonderful
0:45 artist cartoonist. I suppose if you had
0:47 your life over, you might well have been
0:49 Zapiro, who's also got a surname of
0:51 Shapiro, so it seems to work in the
0:54 family. Um, but the other thing is that
0:56 you write beautifully. Your piece that
0:58 you wrote for business news this week,
1:00 man, it was out of the top drawer. And I
1:02 think that if you hadn't been a stock
1:04 broker, South Africa's favorite stock
1:05 broker, you would have been South
1:07 Africa's favorite columnist. That's for
1:09 sure. So, we look forward to those who
1:11 haven't read it to reading it and to
1:13 many more of that. But I thought, here's
1:16 a great way to start the year. Let's tap
1:18 into David's wisdom. Let's find out a
1:21 little bit more about why he was
1:24 bemoning the departure of South Africa's
1:27 business titans. And really, is it just
1:30 nostalgia or is there something deeper
1:32 at foot here that we need to uncover?
1:34 And I think by the end of this
1:37 conversation, I've got no doubt that our
1:40 uh community will be well pretty sure
1:42 that you have got a very very strong
1:44 argument. I don't know how we fix it and
1:45 maybe you've got some thoughts of that
1:47 too. But let's start at the beginning.
1:50 Uh it's the titans versus the
1:53 spreadsheet managers. Those who are
1:56 entrepreneurs and those who are
1:57 professional managers.
1:59 >> You know, you know how it started. The
2:02 last conversation we had, you asked me
2:04 that question. You said to me, "Who are
2:06 the people we look up to? Who are the
2:09 businessmen we look up to?" And I
2:11 thought about it. I had no quick answer.
2:14 And I said, "Alec, there aren't any." In
2:17 other words, we don't have the kind of
2:20 businessmen or women that we used to
2:22 have in the past. Nowhere near those
2:26 kind of people anymore. And it bothered
2:28 me. And I had a lot of time over. I I
2:29 didn't go away. I went to the game
2:31 reserve for a few days and I came back
2:34 and I started to mle over what you had
2:38 asked me and go back in my past uh about
2:39 the time that I'd spent on the market
2:42 and the people that uh you know who used
2:45 to influence um the direction of the
2:49 economy and I think that's important and
2:52 there is no answer I you know I I I'm
2:55 not a a great academic in that way and I
2:57 had to try think through it and I came
3:00 with three paths I The first was um obviously
3:02 obviously
3:05 overreach. We had some great leaders but
3:09 we soon as um exchange controls opened a
3:11 lot of companies just went overseas
3:13 without really thinking about it caused
3:16 a lot of damage. The other without doubt
3:20 is uh the transformation 1994 onwards be
3:23 and so on what that's done to uh to
3:27 business people and the third is because
3:30 of that as a result of all of that we're
3:32 not developing anything we've got no
3:35 technology and and so you know I try to
3:37 think about it Alec believe me when I
3:40 write an article I go through every word
3:43 I go through constructing I can't sit
3:45 down like you. I've got a son Jonathan
3:47 who's with a financial review. He's here
3:50 at the moment. He can just sit down and
3:52 you know I've read your pieces. They
3:54 just flow beautifully. Now with me it's
3:57 a labor. It's like I have to construct
3:59 these. But it does give you the chance
4:03 to to think very very deeply about where
4:06 we are. So I think I have no doubt that
4:09 if we had the kind of business people
4:12 that we had in the past uh we'd have a
4:14 different economy if we had that energy
4:17 if we had those foresights the courage
4:19 to do what they did and you know we can
4:22 go through some of them because I I can
4:24 go back a lot further than the ones that
4:26 I mentioned in the article just how they
4:31 shaped it and Alec you if you have a a
4:34 um a seminar and then you think about uh
4:36 those seminars that we used to have the
4:38 financial male whoever they were they
4:41 were packed with some really strong
4:45 voices um and and I think we miss those
4:47 people you know they gave us direction
4:51 they gave us confidence so yeah it's um
4:53 we need to build those people up we need
4:55 to build up business people who are
4:58 prepared to take risk who are prepared
5:00 to forge this economy you know find gaps
5:02 here forge it to go further you know instead
5:03 instead
5:05 who the kind of managers we have now
5:07 they're confident very very competent
5:10 but uh not willing to take big risks not
5:12 willing to move out of their comfort zones
5:13 zones
5:15 >> you mentioned Brian Joffy we both know
5:19 him well you uh you recall those annual
5:22 uh gettogethers that he would have uh
5:25 where they just grew and grew and grew
5:28 as the bidvest empire got bigger and
5:32 bigger uh soul kernner where's the soul
5:35 kernner today. Uh, Raymond, where's the
5:37 Raymanakman? Sure, the guys at at
5:40 Shopright are efficient, but you don't
5:41 get a feeling. You don't get a sense
5:43 when you walk into a checker store that
5:45 the people who work there are committed.
5:47 Boy, they're champions.
5:49 I don't I don't know if anybody loves
5:51 Checkers. They go to Checkers because,
5:54 well, it's cheap. Whereas Akaman was
5:55 fighting a good fight. He was fighting
5:58 the Apartate government. He was fighting
6:00 for the consumer, bringing on cheaper
6:03 petrol and all the time good business
6:06 because people really love that brand.
6:08 Of course, Sean Summers got a hell of a
6:10 job to to get it right. But maybe that's
6:12 the that's where we start. David, where
6:15 is where's the Yani Muton? Where's the
6:19 GT Ferrer? Where's the Brian Joffy? And
6:21 and and why have they why have why have
6:24 they gone off perhaps overseas like Elon
6:27 Musk and some others? I think one of the
6:30 big problems are our industrial
6:34 policies. Um we if you want to do
6:36 anything in this country, they and I
6:38 said it last time when we spoke, I said
6:40 they give you a rule book, you know,
6:42 they don't they don't open the doors for
6:45 you. They don't roll out the red carpet.
6:48 And uh and and and I think people misunderstand
6:50 misunderstand
6:54 what a new business can do, you know. Uh
6:56 and and I might have said this before,
7:00 when you sank a shaft, you created a
7:02 whole economic ecosystem. There was a
7:05 whole ecosystem around that shaft. The
7:06 people who worked there got money spent
7:08 and so on. And that's the same with any
7:11 kind of business that we start today. A
7:15 new business uh brings in uh energy but
7:17 it also creates an ecosystem around it.
7:20 A factory, you put a factory there, you
7:21 know, everybody wants to work in it.
7:23 Those who get worked in it get more
7:25 money. They start to spend it and so you
7:27 get this multiplier effect. We don't do
7:29 that anymore because we can't build
7:31 factories. Why? Because when you want to
7:33 build a factory, you go to government
7:35 and government tells you how you're
7:36 going to build it, where you're going to
7:38 build it, who you're going to employ,
7:39 who your shareholders. You can't do that
7:43 anymore. And when you study the success
7:48 of our former business leaders, um it
7:50 was the energy of a single person I
7:52 think that really created these
7:54 businesses or a single group of people.
7:58 You know, I go back, Alec, to uh Tiger
8:00 Oats. I used to do the audit audit at
8:03 Tiger Oats, you know, the um the Frankle
8:05 family, Jacob Frankle, then Rudy
8:09 Frankle, you know. Um you go to these
8:11 big opposition, the Blooms of Premier
8:14 Milling. This was a bunfight, literally,
8:16 figuratively and literally a bunfight,
8:21 you know. um of uh who dominated uh uh
8:23 those industries, the maze meal industry
8:27 and uh and and they were they were huge
8:30 huge people that when they went to a
8:32 seminar, you know, or if you went to an
8:34 event, when they were there, they had a
8:36 presence around them that you wanted to
8:40 rub off onto you. And I think um if I
8:42 can trans if I could fast forward it to
8:43 where America is to try to give people
8:45 an example of it. You know, I was
8:47 listening to Jensen Wang yesterday
8:50 talking with the Seaman's boss. And
8:53 here's a man that's he's forging where
8:56 America's going. He's building trips
9:00 that are going to decide the future and
9:03 passage of the American economy.
9:06 Followed with um well from Gates, you
9:07 know, you've got Sachin Adella today.
9:10 You've got all those leaders Zuckerberg
9:13 whether you like him or not they're all
9:16 big big names Jeff Bezos and so they've
9:19 created the American economy you know
9:21 and the environment has allowed them to
9:22 do that
9:24 >> Elon Musk hate him whether you like he's
9:27 a in his own way he's a genius but
9:29 everybody knows who he is and what he
9:31 does and he doesn't stop and I think
9:34 that's the difference we can there's
9:37 there's no reason why small economies
9:41 can't produce something very similar and
9:42 look at the number of people that we
9:45 have that we have built up who have
9:47 immigrated to the US and have become
9:50 including must ruda you know people like
9:53 that who who really have made big big
9:55 names for themselves here
9:58 >> even in the middle you remember the guys
10:00 who started Monster which is one of the
10:03 big energy drinks companies that
10:06 >> I I remember um
10:08 >> yeah here in they were here in Joberg.
10:10 They were operating in Jober. Well, Ivan
10:13 Glazenberg from Glenor and so on. Dave,
10:16 has the JS lost its soul though. Let's
10:19 let's look within the JS and is this the
10:22 reason that it kind of had a had a
10:25 different vibe uh years ago because you
10:28 had these giants when Tony Bloom had his
10:30 annual results. He would take people to
10:32 a restaurant that had been undiscovered.
10:34 be something completely new in the south
10:38 of Joberg or uh in a I remember he he he
10:40 has it he had it in a in an old mole
10:42 factory or something like that. It was
10:44 different. It was it was creative
10:46 thinking. It's almost like our guys
10:49 today well a they don't have those
10:50 gettogethers for their financial
10:52 results. It's all kind of just
10:54 distributed online. But secondly, it's
10:56 it's almost like they're shrinking
10:58 violets, these CEOs with the ex
11:00 exception of a Neil Froman and a few like
11:01 like
11:03 >> that's yeah there are those exceptions
11:06 but that's I just mentioned in the
11:08 article and I thought about it um the
11:10 former business leaders would take on
11:13 government. Uh they took on the apartate
11:16 government. They weren't scared to share
11:20 their views. Um sometimes maybe they
11:22 they restrained it their criticism a
11:24 little bit. uh today we don't do that.
11:27 We tiptoe around as I said we tiptoe
11:29 around government you know we don't we
11:31 don't challenge them we don't say
11:34 anything just in case you know the banks
11:37 have you ever heard any of the banks
11:39 moan about government no they don't say
11:41 anything why because uh there's a threat
11:43 that they might lose government accounts
11:45 and so on so everybody nobody nobody
11:49 challenges anybody and we just allow uh
11:51 the rules and regulations to continue
11:53 there no big voices who are going to go
11:55 out there and say, you know, Mr.
11:58 Ramiposa, we can't continue like this.
12:00 We can't if you if you want to build a
12:02 nation, uh, we've got to change
12:04 direction. We can't we've got to
12:06 encourage people to come here and not
12:08 throw rule books at and, uh, we've got
12:10 to create an environment that allows
12:14 them to flourish. I don't believe, you
12:16 know, I South Africa is an incredible
12:18 country. It's an incredible country of
12:20 opportunity. Alec, where you are in
12:22 Hermanis when you travel around the
12:25 coast when you see and and you would go
12:27 to Cape Town today and just see flurry,
12:29 you know, it's it's a flourishing with
12:31 tourists and that. So, it's it's a
12:34 country people want to succeed. Uh come
12:37 up to and it's just one big pothole
12:39 because we've allowed that to happen.
12:41 But there's there's certainly
12:43 opportunity here. You know, I don't
12:45 dismiss it. And that's why when I
12:48 criticize an attack, it's not that I'm
12:50 I'm I'm saying if we don't recognize
12:51 what's wrong, we're not going to be able
12:52 to fix it. You know,
12:56 >> Dave, you got to you describe
12:59 >> you describe the JSC as being having
13:01 moved from being a stage for champions
13:05 to a battleground for fighters. That's a
13:08 I love that analogy. Uh it's What did
13:11 you though mean by that? And and maybe
13:12 give us some examples. Well, it's
13:14 companies that are just fighting for
13:17 survival. That's what they're doing.
13:20 They're just managing the situation. We
13:22 got no electricity. Okay, we'll put up
13:26 uh we'll put up solar. We don't complain
13:28 and moan and kick out government. We'll
13:30 just get along with it. And that's so
13:32 you survive under the circum no water.
13:35 Okay, we'll put tanks in. and we carry
13:38 on along that kind of way just uh
13:41 adjusting to the circumstances rather
13:43 than saying you know starting a
13:44 revolution and saying listen we've got
13:47 to change this we can't do this I mean
13:49 uh you know I run every day here and
13:52 each day I find a a new dam in job you
13:54 know which is a big pothole or crater
13:57 that is just sunk there full of rain
13:59 water and what do we do we just I run
14:01 around it you know I don't I don't go
14:05 and say hold on a sec our roads need uh
14:07 u rebuilding. You know, we've got to do
14:09 this or we've got to create an
14:10 environment that allows us to have it.
14:14 You can't let the infrastructure just
14:16 evaporate or just just be destroyed.
14:22 Alec, I started in 2007 2008 and I
14:25 remember and this is this is I I I'd
14:27 come back from Australia and I was doing
14:29 my normal runs around the country and I
14:32 started to see the institutions that
14:34 make a company deteriorate. the law
14:35 courts in Joberg which were beautiful
14:38 law courts were just being neglected. Uh
14:41 the schools that you know the primary
14:42 schools around here that were always
14:45 beautifully kept just being neglected.
14:47 You started to see you know the um
14:49 street lights robots all of those kind
14:51 of things and when that starts to
14:54 deteriorate and decay then you haven't
14:56 got the infrastructure. You need that
14:57 infrastructure in order to build an
15:00 economy. And I started to write
15:02 articles, you know, drawing attention
15:04 and my own community, you know, and I'm
15:05 talking about the Northern Suburbs
15:07 community. They used to attack me. They
15:10 used to go at me all the time saying,
15:11 "Don't write negative articles, you
15:14 know, we need clients." I said, "Hold on
15:16 a sec. I'm not I said I'm doing this
15:18 because it needs to be addressed, not
15:21 because I want to attack government. I'm
15:23 saying you've got to recognize what's
15:26 needed to be done to to to improve the
15:28 economy and create the environment or
15:31 platform that that on which we can grow.
15:35 And I promise you, I I I went through a
15:36 lot of issues and I've got a lot of
15:39 stories about presentations that I made
15:40 where, you know, they throw rotten
15:43 apples at me and bananas and get out of
15:45 here, you know, like and and I was just
15:49 trying to say, hold on a sec, you know,
15:51 know what
15:54 know how economies grow. Know what you
15:57 need. And if we if we just create that
15:59 environment and I'm saying fix the
16:00 roads, fix the conditions, make schools
16:04 safe, make everything, people will start
16:06 to spend, they'll start to invest in
16:08 this economy rather than taking their
16:10 money out.
16:11 >> I'm watching with a lot of interest
16:14 what's going on in Venezuela right now
16:15 because there are some parallels with
16:18 South Africa on the basis that Venezuela
16:20 was a flourishing country, the richest
16:23 country in South America. They were were
16:24 delivering three and a half million
16:26 barrels of oil a day. That's down to
16:29 800,000. The infrastructure was
16:32 pristine, lots of reinvestment. It's now
16:35 collapsing and needs 100 billion. I'm
16:38 just on the oil side uh to get it back
16:42 to just normality. And Donald Trump,
16:44 bless him, has decided that the way to
16:46 change all of this is to go into
16:49 Venezuela, whip out the president, and
16:52 to basically do what the socialists hate
16:55 and are so petrified about this thing
16:57 called regime change. But the question
16:59 has to be why about the what about the
17:02 Venezuelan people? And you think, well,
17:04 if the Venezuelan people could see this
17:06 and 8 million of them decided, ah, we're
17:07 just buggering off. We're just leaving.
17:10 and leave leave the leave the rest of
17:12 them to carry on with it. And I those
17:13 are the parallels that I'm seeing in
17:15 South Africa. We've got we've got an
17:18 economy which is just on the slide.
17:21 You've been writing about it for 15 18
17:24 nearly 20 years uh highlighting these
17:26 things very politely, very
17:29 diplomatically, very kindly. But when
17:31 you look around your social group, you
17:33 look around people who could make a
17:35 difference. Well, most of them have
17:37 said, "What the heck? let's just pack
17:39 our bags and and go and fight and uh go
17:41 and fight a battle somewhere else where
17:43 it's just so much easier. What is it
17:46 going to take for the South African, the
17:47 average South African to say, "Hang on a
17:50 minute. This is not what we signed up
17:52 for. This is not what we deserve. We
17:54 didn't put these guys in power to make
17:57 us poorer, to give us a Nicholas Maduro
18:02 experience. We want to un un uh unleash
18:05 the potential of this incredible place
18:07 that we were privileged enough to be
18:07 living in.
18:10 >> I think you literally start block by
18:13 block. You know, you fix a block and
18:15 keep going on. You fix a school, you fix
18:19 a hospital. Those are the issues that
18:22 keep people in a country. When they feel
18:25 safe and when they feel safe in their
18:27 little houses with gardens that they can
18:29 walk out into the road and not be
18:31 attacked, you know, when they can go
18:34 down to the shops and uh again, you
18:36 know, not face crime or not uh those
18:39 kind of issues will keep people here and
18:42 it's we that those are the simple
18:44 issues. People do want to live in South
18:49 Africa. I mean um I I bumped into a very
18:51 successful business person. Now I'm not
18:53 it's not fair for me to mention his name
18:54 and he said this is the greatest country
18:57 on the earth. There's nothing well he's
18:58 very rich you know and he lives in a
19:00 very nice house. He can travel. He can
19:02 send his kids to whatever schools about
19:04 it. But he sees a country like he wants
19:07 it to be not like it really is. We've
19:08 got to see it how it really is at the
19:12 moment in that. And and my I I don't
19:14 think it's all that difficult. It's not
19:17 about having white papers and green
19:19 papers and all these things. It's just
19:21 about fixing what we already have, you
19:24 know, fixing the roads. You you said we
19:27 had the most incredible roads, highways,
19:29 we had the best hospitals in the world.
19:32 Every doctor will tell you how
19:34 foreigners wanted to come to Baraguana
19:37 because it was such a an incredible way
19:39 to train yourself, to get training, to
19:41 understand. Today, it's nowhere near
19:43 like, you know, like that. all our
19:48 doctors go and um it's it's so to come
19:51 down to the bottom line look at the life
19:55 that you're leading down in in her manus
19:57 that's you're you're happy there you're
20:00 wonderful you will invest in her manus
20:01 we've got to replicate that around the
20:04 country people are going to these habits
20:06 where they feel comfortable we've got to
20:09 make Jober I love Jober I'm not a
20:11 Kontonian you know I'm never going to be
20:14 a Capeonian And I loved what Joberg
20:16 represented, you know. I loved the gold
20:19 mines. I loved to fly over the the the
20:22 dumps, you know. That was Joberg. I had
20:24 been brought up in the history of crown
20:26 mines and I knew every mine that had
20:27 ever been developed here. That was my
20:30 jobber. And I love the stock exchange
20:32 because it it it pumped. You know, we
20:35 had gold mines, we had platinum mines,
20:37 coal mines, you name it. This was a
20:40 vibrant, energetic economy. As a result
20:42 of that, we had all the other businesses
20:44 that came, you know, the industrial side
20:46 that had to service all of these. And
20:48 that's the economy, the South African
20:51 economy that I grew up with and knew.
20:53 And I look at it today and we're nowhere
20:55 near that. And that's where my sadness
20:57 comes. But it doesn't mean you can't get
20:59 there. It and and I'm not saying that
21:02 because just using false words or easy
21:05 words, you know, I knew what created
21:07 that that's not difficult to create. So
21:10 let's let's go back to what caused all
21:13 of this maybe the hubris era because
21:17 post 1994 South African companies those
21:19 executives that we've been applauding
21:20 they thought they're going to go and
21:22 take on the world and they're going to
21:24 conquer the world. Maybe maybe some of
21:26 them thought oh there's a dangerous
21:28 place it's it's going to change. We got
21:31 a liberation organization coming in. Uh
21:32 the the future's not going to be that
21:35 great. Oh we need to diversify rapidly
21:37 outside of South Africa. Now we can.
21:39 Anyway, whatever caused it, we've had
21:42 disasters. Discovery going to the US,
21:44 they drop a billion rand back in those
21:47 days. Wworth goes to Australia. I don't
21:49 know what they dropped, but David Jones
21:53 was an unmititigated disaster. Uh Sassel
21:55 goes into the United States, biggest
21:57 foreign investor in the United States,
22:00 builds a plant in Louisiana, eventually
22:02 has to sell half of it just to keep the
22:03 thing going. And it's still now it's
22:06 lumbered with huge amounts of debt.
22:09 Another disaster. Old mutual SAB Miller
22:12 offshoring themselves. Dimension data.
22:15 It's just a litany of disasters of South
22:17 African businesses. So on the one hand
22:19 we're saying where are these
22:22 entrepreneurs? Where are these titans?
22:24 But on the other hand post 1994 they did
22:26 not exactly do us proud.
22:28 >> No. And I think there was a lot of
22:30 hudris. There was a lot of arrogance and
22:34 self-belief and the things that they had
22:35 it it's like running a marathon you know
22:37 if you run five marathons or six
22:39 marathons you say by the sick n I don't
22:41 have to train and I promise you you run
22:43 that six marathon without doing the same
22:46 training you feel it you fall over and
22:49 you know finished and I think they drop
22:51 the ball you know where the blame also
22:54 lies and I every time there's a deal a
22:57 company does a deal I ask the question
22:59 did you initiate the deal. You, Mr.
23:03 Manager, Mr. CEO, ordered some fancy
23:06 investment banker come from London in
23:08 his pinstriped suit with his Oxford
23:12 accent and uh kind of overwhelm you and
23:14 you feel humiliate, not humiliated, you
23:15 know, you feel a little insecure about
23:18 around him because he's got this snotty
23:19 accent and so on and you think that he's
23:22 from the aristocracy and you go and do
23:25 deals and and that's the biggest beware
23:28 of investment bankers. Mhm. They're
23:31 after making money. That's it. You know,
23:33 when you've when you've gone and done
23:36 your research there and you as a very
23:38 good operator here have identified
23:40 something in some foreign market that
23:42 you've believe that you could run
23:44 properly, doing the same kind of
23:46 investigations that you knew, you know,
23:49 that instinct that you had, go and do
23:51 the deal, then go and investigate. Alec,
23:53 I go to America often. I've got a
23:55 daughter in Boston. and I've been going
23:58 there for over 20 years and I spend a
24:01 lot of time there. I would never
24:03 think of opening a business in the
24:05 United States. You getting into the ring
24:08 with rock violence, not with those
24:10 poodles, you know, not with a cocker spaniel.
24:11 spaniel.
24:15 You you've got to be really really tough
24:18 to take on the US. They work. I said to
24:21 my son-in-law once cuz uh he was working
24:23 for an investment bank. I said, "Brett,
24:25 for God's sake, you know, you're working
24:27 so hard. It was holidays." He says, "I
24:29 don't work hard." He says, "My clients
24:31 work hard." In other words, I've got to
24:35 work at that pace. He can't help it. And
24:40 believe me, Alec, they that's a that's
24:41 an environment that you don't want to
24:43 take on, you know. And so, if you're
24:45 going to go offshore, if you're going to
24:47 do these things, just use the same kind
24:50 of instincts that you did here to build
24:52 up your businesses. Don't don't just sit
24:53 at a boardroom and say, "Well, it's not
24:55 my money. It's shareholders money. So
24:57 what? I'll lose reputation. They'll lose
25:01 money." So I I think I I still very very
25:03 weary of a lot of deals that are being
25:05 done. You know, we've got the Mr. Price
25:07 deal now at the moment. You want to
25:08 know, listen,
25:11 who initiated this? Did you pick out
25:13 that company or or did you have some
25:17 fancy, you know, US bank, I mean, and a
25:19 global banker coming out and say, "We've
25:21 got a big deal for you." very important.
25:23 >> The problem Yeah. The problem with those
25:26 those uh helpers and super helpers as
25:29 Warren Buffett called them is that when
25:31 you put them on the spot
25:35 uh they they seem to be expert in
25:38 somehow weedling out of it. I I went
25:40 through a billion rand deal that I was
25:42 quite involved in. I wasn't involved in
25:44 doing it. I was involved in it when it
25:46 happened afterwards. And I remember
25:49 these investment bankers from Dubai and
25:52 I really gave them a gave them gears.
25:56 They they brazenly lied about the
25:59 projections and the actual numbers that
26:02 they put on the table were David. They
26:05 were pure fiction, but they' got their
26:06 they'd got their money. They put their
26:09 their fees in the bank. Their client had
26:13 been paid and the buyer was ended ended
26:15 up with with the baby. uh it was a South
26:18 African deal. So it's not a it's not a
26:20 uh can just imagine how much worse it
26:22 would be in an international deal. But
26:25 that one that you're talking about now
26:31 in Mr. Price's case in Germany, it looks
26:34 crazy. The the the the market has given
26:38 them such a big thumbs down. What would
26:39 turn that around for you? What would
26:43 make it a something that you'd even give
26:46 a cautious uh vote of confidence to to
26:48 the Mr. Price team?
26:51 >> Not at all. I I I just don't know enough
26:55 about it to uh to endorse it. I I
26:58 understand that um they're running out
26:59 of room in South Africa. It's becoming
27:02 very competitive. As I say, we're going
27:04 down and down. you know, looking at the
27:06 low end of the market, everybody's going
27:10 down uh simply because the at the top
27:11 end of the market, there's no growth.
27:13 So, they've decided to go overseas
27:18 again. And I'm very very dubious
27:20 um you know about whether this is
27:22 successful. You've got to know those
27:25 businesses well. You've got to have
27:28 followed them for years. You know, it's
27:30 one of the problems and I say this to a
27:32 lot of young people as well that even,
27:34 you know, work for us, especially with
27:37 AI, especially with the with with the
27:38 technology that we're seeing at the
27:40 moment. Everybody every day there's a
27:42 new company coming up. And I say, "Hold
27:44 on a sec." You know, it's like it's like
27:46 going on a date. You go on a date and
27:49 you have a lovely time with a a very
27:51 attractive lady or partner, whatever it
27:54 is, and you don't go the next morning
27:57 and and uh propose. you know, you got to
27:58 learn about this person. You got to
28:00 learn the good times, the bad times. You
28:02 got to follow that. You know, you've got
28:04 to allow the relationship develop.
28:06 That's why I'm saying when you buy
28:08 companies, when you start to invest
28:10 other people's money, just and I say
28:12 other people's money, Mr. Price, if they
28:14 want to invest their own money, they can
28:15 do what they like. When they've got
28:19 shareholders money, pensioners money um
28:21 under their control or responsible for,
28:24 they got to be very very careful. So
28:26 they've got to know that company not
28:29 just what they've seen on fact or
28:31 Bloomberg's you know tracing earnings
28:33 going up and so on. You must have
28:36 followed that company month by month day
28:38 by day or whatever it is quarter by
28:40 quarter and only when you understand
28:42 that then you can make those kind of
28:44 decisions say look I like this business.
28:46 We don't do that, Alec. We're so fast.
28:48 We've got so much technology at our
28:50 disposal that we think that we know
28:52 everything. You know, we construct
28:55 charts and spreadsheets and
28:57 there's a lot more to a business. Le
29:00 let's move on to another area now that
29:03 you did tap into in your piece and
29:05 that's about the compliance officer trap,
29:07 trap,
29:10 policy versus prosperity. You know the
29:12 days of Harry Oppenheimer standing up
29:14 fighting with government saying I'm
29:17 going to invest in this mine even though
29:20 I know it's a 30 to 50y year venture
29:23 because I do believe that eventually
29:26 common sense will prevail and then the
29:30 this idiotic government will have to
29:32 comply with what happens in the rest of
29:34 the world. We don't seem to be having
29:36 that today. There's no there's no Harry
29:39 Oppenheimer um who's saying I know the
29:42 ANC are on the wrong track but common
29:45 sense will prevail. Why is that? And why
29:48 is it that businesses or executives have
29:52 just succumbed to this whole compliance
29:55 uh tragedy which which they they just
29:57 have to be have to be subservient to.
30:00 >> They've given up. Yeah, they've given
30:03 up. I think the the regulation has just
30:05 uh just overwhelmed them that they just
30:08 haven't got the energy to go through it.
30:11 Alec, start a bank,
30:14 you know, just or even a broking firm or
30:16 an investment, anything that just
30:18 understand what you have to go through
30:22 on a dayto-day basis, you know, uh it's
30:25 it's it's it just wears you down that
30:27 people eventually say, you know what,
30:31 I'm out of here. And I think in the, you
30:33 know, even if I, if you came to me and
30:36 say, David, you've known me for a long
30:41 time. I want to open up an account at uh
30:44 some Swiss bank or something like this.
30:45 In the old days, if you phone me up on
30:48 the floor, I'd say, you say, David, I
30:51 want to buy a 100 home. I say, okay, I
30:53 I'll quickly fill out a form. We get
30:55 account open for you, and boom, I'd buy
30:57 the 100 because I know you. I know you
30:58 and I know that you're going to honor
31:01 your obligation today. By the time we've
31:03 got that account open, it could be two,
31:05 three weeks by which time you say, "Nah,
31:06 I don't really want to buy them
31:08 anymore." And and and I'm just giving
31:12 you a very small example of of what we
31:14 go through. I can't tell you how many
31:17 compliance offices a business like ours
31:22 has as opposed to um where we are, you
31:24 know, as opposed to those front-end
31:26 people who are developing the business.
31:29 And uh so uh we've been worn out and
31:32 then add the complexity of be to South
31:35 African companies you know constantly
31:37 looking at what the what the level of
31:40 your staff is who's your who's your head
31:42 of research who's head of the trading
31:44 you know are they the right color or the
31:46 right denominator blah blah. So
31:49 eventually there's so many hoops that
31:51 you have to go through. You actually
31:54 lose that desire to to uh you know to
31:56 make things work. America is not like
31:58 that. You know, other countries are not
32:01 like that. It's it's it's far far easier
32:03 to get through. And I think people like
32:05 Trump are actually trying to, you know,
32:08 break it down and uh do away with this
32:10 excess regulation. But Alec, it's it's
32:14 it's it's South Africa.
32:16 Just if you go back, I know that China
32:19 is now the manufacturing or it's going
32:21 to Vietnam or it's going to Asia and
32:23 just think of the factories that we used
32:25 to have going back to when you first
32:27 started writing when you first started
32:30 on the market. There were phenomenal our
32:33 clothing factories. We supplied Harrods.
32:37 We supplied all the best um retailers in
32:39 the world. Yes. You know, we we had an
32:42 incred Rex true form companies like
32:44 that. House of Manatic so and so. Just
32:47 think of what we used to have here and
32:48 where that's all gone. You know, whether
32:51 it's placed by Shyen or whatever, Teu,
32:54 it doesn't matter. We had those skills
32:56 and we still can develop those skills in
32:59 in in our own way and and other
33:01 manufacturing, industrial manufacturing,
33:03 you know, that anyway,
33:04 >> it would need
33:06 >> I'm getting a bit nostalgic.
33:08 >> No, but but it would clearly need a
33:12 rethink of regulations. It's like uh
33:14 those regulations did not stop the
33:16 criminals from taking over South
33:18 Africa's criminal justice system. They
33:21 did not stop the Guptas from raping this
33:24 country. So what are they doing there?
33:28 Why are we wanting to have regulations
33:30 in South Africa which are not working
33:34 for the real crooks but are making those
33:38 who would like to uh invest their energy
33:41 in growing the economy uh it it makes
33:43 them stuck in trial.
33:45 >> Yes. I you know that's the answer. I
33:47 mean you you how do how do they get away
33:50 with this you know um
33:52 >> they just manage they just ignore it.
33:55 Yeah. They just we've got no bite. Our
33:57 government's got no bite,
33:59 >> you know. We we don't have a we don't
34:01 have strong leadership,
34:05 >> you know. It's it's it's very very weak
34:06 and we're not the kind of leadership
34:09 that can actually change this country or
34:10 turn it around. I don't know whether the
34:13 DA has got it either. I don't know. But
34:16 we need a younger generation of of young
34:18 of of leaders to start emerging and
34:20 saying, "Listen, we want to build this
34:22 country. We really want to take it to
34:26 where it is. Africa has not reached the
34:28 potential and I don't like the word
34:31 potential but it hasn't reached the
34:33 levels that we thought it would back in
34:36 1994. We were so pumped up there and we
34:39 had such good young leadership that was
34:42 emerging and I include the Ramaposes at
34:44 that stage. You know if you look at the
34:47 class of 94 there were some ve very very
34:49 good people there who wanted to make
34:51 South Africa work. What happened? They
34:53 said, "Hold on a sec, you know, we can
34:55 actually make money for ourselves." And
34:58 one by one, they started emer they
35:00 started their own businesses and and it
35:02 became the elite that enriched
35:04 themselves to levels that are quite
35:07 remarkable without doing anything. And
35:08 they went to the white companies, you
35:10 know, if I can use it that way. They
35:11 went to the companies and say, "You need
35:14 us, you know, you want me to be on your
35:16 board? It's going to cost you 2 million
35:20 rand something in fees. I want 25,000
35:21 shares and I'm going to tell you
35:22 something else. I'm not coming to a
35:24 board meeting. Okay? And that's how they
35:26 got into seven or eight boards and so
35:29 on. And we paid out price. We felt guilt
35:32 and that was the that was the beginning
35:35 the genesis of the destruction of this
35:37 economy. You trace it from from 94.
35:41 Well, uh, when you look back now at a at
35:44 a business titan, I guess exactly what
35:47 you've articulated a moment ago is that
35:50 they are often worn down, worn out.
35:52 Where do you have the time to think, to
35:56 reflect, to to sacrifice, to make the
35:59 investment when you've got all these
36:01 regulations that you have to first of
36:03 all take care of? And it's it's almost
36:07 like well your major job now as a CEO is
36:10 just make sure you don't break the law
36:11 because there's so many of those laws
36:13 even but the crooks are breaking the
36:15 laws all the time. We know many many
36:17 businesses in South Africa don't pay
36:19 VAT. They don't they couldn't be
36:21 bothered to to pay VAT and we know that
36:24 from personal experience. a company will
36:27 a guy will often say to you, do you want
36:31 uh do you want to pay me in cash or an
36:34 extra 14% and I invoice you or 15%
36:36 rather and I invoice you. So I guess you
36:40 you get that um and you need a really
36:42 you need really special person to emerge
36:44 from that and I I suppose they say well
36:46 let me rather go somewhere where I don't
36:48 have those issues. David, what about
36:51 your final point that you made in your
36:54 column? Clearance sales versus moonshots.
36:55 moonshots.
36:57 What did you mean by that?
36:59 >> I mean, [laughter]
37:02 moonshots, I'm talking technology. In
37:04 other words, getting to the mood, moving
37:07 forward, you know, moving uh I mean,
37:10 when I look at AI now, I'm I I I'm
37:13 absolutely taken away by what this can
37:15 do and where it's going and how it's
37:18 going to improve productivity. Um, we
37:20 need it here, you know, we need it in a
37:22 big way. We need the data centers. We
37:25 need the young people to design or to
37:28 help businesses now start to use AI and
37:30 uh uh to to move forward. I'm sure that
37:32 there are a lot of kids like that who
37:35 are well. What's happening now is that
37:39 when I say clearance sales, where's this
37:40 economy going? Just look at the
37:43 companies that that we like. They're all
37:45 going down to the bottom end of the
37:48 market. You know, I uh for example, and
37:51 I love the company Pepco that and it's
37:54 doing incredibly well servicing the
37:56 informal sector, but that's that's where
37:59 our focus is. It's down at the bottom.
38:01 how can we make money out of these poor
38:04 people who have never been banked or
38:05 haven't got the money and that and
38:08 that's where the the rushes how many
38:10 bankers are going to try and get into
38:13 that area. um look at who's who's the
38:15 most successful retailer boxer, you
38:18 know, Shopright or at at those levels.
38:20 And I said, "Hold on a sec. Let's let's
38:23 get the bar up. Let's become a tech for
38:26 Africa or or do things like that. Let's
38:30 start thinking that way rather than uh
38:32 you know, rather than trying to service
38:34 the under um you know, the
38:36 povertystricken people or those who
38:37 haven't got the money. That's what I
38:40 want. you know, let's develop, let's try
38:42 and there's going to be room. There's
38:46 going to be plenty of room for us to to
38:47 build our own apps, to build our own
38:50 data centers, to to use those kind, you
38:52 know, the these new applications to help
38:54 to build factories here. I know that
38:55 you're not going to employ people, but
39:00 but to become an area of expertise,
39:03 you know, and that's that that's where,
39:05 you know, that's where we kind of fallen
39:07 behind. There's no you go look at the
39:10 JSC other than 10 cent through nice
39:13 person process. There's not much. It's a
39:16 very old economy JSE.
39:20 >> David, what what's your advice then to a
39:21 young entrepreneur and they're still
39:23 being born. They're still coming
39:25 through. 10% of the population wants to
39:27 work for themselves. They want to change
39:28 the world. They want to provide a
39:30 service to others that will be an
39:32 improvement on what currently exists.
39:34 And my goodness, it's not difficult in
39:36 in in the place we find ourselves in.
39:38 What's your advice to them?
39:40 >> Yes, there's another problem. Sorry, I I
39:42 should have mentioned it. You go to our
39:45 bank. You go to a bank and say, "I want
39:47 money to start this business." They'll
39:50 look at you and say, "Mm- no, first of
39:53 all, you got to give me collateral here.
39:55 You know, you got to give me your wife,
39:57 your children, your home, everything
39:59 before I lend you money." We don't do
40:01 that. There's no VC money. There's no
40:03 venture capital money here to allow
40:05 these poor people, you know, when I say
40:07 poor, I meant to people to to advance
40:11 businesses. We haven't got that mindset
40:13 that is available in America or other
40:15 countries. America, there's an abundance
40:18 of investment capital to allow these
40:21 entrepreneurs to to develop. We don't
40:23 have it. So don't tell me Standard Bank,
40:25 First Rand, Invest, none of it. You will
40:29 not get a dollar, a rand out of them to
40:30 start a venture like that. They just
40:33 have not got the mentality. And that's a
40:35 massive problem. And and I say it's a
40:38 massive problem because uh our banks
40:41 don't lend money. Even even if you've
40:43 got a nice balance sheet, they they it's
40:45 it's almost impossible to get anything
40:49 done and we've got to find access to the
40:50 funds. There's always stories about
40:53 those funds, but uh it's very very
40:55 difficult. Nobody wants to take that
40:58 kind of risk inside. And that's another
41:00 big big problem to allow young people to
41:03 develop businesses. That's why they end
41:05 up offshore or wherever they do they
41:07 take their you know they got a great
41:08 idea. They're not going to develop it in
41:10 South Africa. They'll take what is a
41:12 what's a great idea? It's a it's it's
41:15 it's some you know you you you take the
41:16 idea and you get on a plane and you're
41:20 off to somewhere else. So it's
41:21 understand that as well. I think it's
41:24 it's also a very important point. Um,
41:26 our banks are also got to loosen up a bit.
41:27 bit.
41:29 >> But we do have a world that is
41:32 interconnected. We do have access to all
41:34 of the tools now that anybody anywhere
41:38 else on this planet has got it. The fact
41:42 that somebody's sitting in San Diego uh
41:44 doesn't mean that they can access Gemini
41:48 and I can't. We can both access at
41:49 exactly the same time and for the same
41:52 resources. the same with Grock and other
41:55 incredible tools which are transforming
41:57 the way that you can serve the
41:59 population or the the community that
42:02 that you've chosen to do. So, putting
42:05 that on the one side, putting our great
42:07 people cuz we got great people. I mean,
42:10 despite all our issues, everybody smiles
42:11 here. I mean, that's just the reality of
42:13 South Africa. I suppose our weather's
42:15 got something to do with it. So you got
42:16 the weather, you got the people, you got
42:20 lots of skills, um lots of smarts, uh
42:24 here what is your advice to a young
42:27 entrepreneur, a a 20s something guy like
42:31 you and I once were who saying, "Okay, I
42:32 want to live here. I want to swim in the
42:35 sea or I want to go to the Joberg clubs
42:38 or whatever it is that motivates them.
42:41 I'm I'm committing to to this country.
42:42 What is it that I need to do as an
42:45 entrepreneur? How can David Shapiro help
42:48 me, mentor me, suggest to me that that I
42:50 can do that and be successful?
42:52 >> I think don't give up and go hammer on
42:54 the door of those banks and let them
42:56 know what you think about them. You
42:58 know, I think you've got to have that
43:01 perseverance and energy to get somebody
43:04 to listen to your story. And as you
43:06 correctly say, you can live very
43:09 comfortably here and still do it. um you
43:12 can still do it with the technology but
43:14 uh don't give up and start you know
43:16 formulate your ideas. There's no reason
43:19 why you can't have the same kind of
43:22 ideas as a kid in New York or in Kansas
43:24 City or whatever it is. You did right
43:27 and tailor it for businesses around here
43:29 or or even take product that you've got
43:32 offshore come to businesses here and try
43:35 to get them you know try and help them.
43:37 But I think you've got to you've got to
43:39 have that we've got to create that
43:42 energy, you know, and take away entitlement.
43:44 entitlement.
43:46 Take away that that that
43:48 entitlement attitude that we do have
43:52 here in South Africa, you know, and uh I
43:55 think that that to me is a big problem.
43:58 You've got to you meaning that don't
44:00 don't use the rules that are in place to
44:03 your advantage. You know, become genuine
44:06 entrepreneurs. I might be talking in [laughter]
44:06 [laughter]
44:11 obscurely but um I'm talking at you know
44:13 certain other population people just do
44:15 it just go out and do it and try
44:18 overcome all those kind of obstacles and
44:21 that but Alec we need some of the banks
44:23 as well there is there's a lot of money
44:26 in this country believe me there is
44:28 there are fortunes of money in this
44:30 country which we which are hit which are
44:34 are available to be let loose in the
44:38 right kind of environment that so um I
44:41 haven't got the exact answer but I mean
44:43 if you've got an idea you want to stay
44:46 here you've got the skills just don't
44:48 give up just do it you know do it
44:51 >> now that's I remember that was a uh the
44:55 motto not just of Nike but of Bill Lynch
44:58 who was South Africa's entrepreneur of
45:00 the year in 2006 and was the world the
45:02 only time that South Africa South
45:05 Africans won it World Entrepreneur of
45:07 the Year and Pan Joffy and uh Chris
45:10 Becka were got came close but Bill Lynch
45:13 actually won it and he used I asked him
45:16 uh at I was around I was covering the
45:19 the event in Monaco when he was given
45:22 that award and I said to him Bill what
45:23 do you tell young people what do you
45:25 tell other entrepreneurs said just do it
45:28 just do it this whole idea we find out
45:30 reasons why we can't our background is
45:32 tough or you know we haven't had rich
45:36 parents or um the the the opposition is
45:38 just too powerful and these big
45:40 corporations. He says, "Bugger that just
45:42 do it." And I think you you you're
45:43 confirming it.
45:46 >> Can I just give you my own example?
45:49 Um where is it about 15 years ago or
45:52 even a little when I started handling
45:57 client business? Um I had two slides and
46:00 the one was you know well I I really one
46:04 slide I said why buy in a spaza when you
46:06 can buy in a supermarket meaning
46:09 exchange col open up let's go overseas
46:11 and everyone came to me says what do you
46:14 know about overseas I said nothing I
46:16 said absolutely nothing I said but
46:19 anyway I built a whole business around
46:22 offshore and I started to take clients
46:23 not simply because they were They had
46:25 their businesses. There were some great
46:28 companies that we started to invest. And
46:30 all I'm saying, what I'm getting at is
46:33 that I could compete because of the
46:34 technology. And it comes back to the
46:37 example. I could compete with the best
46:40 in New York, wherever it is, because I
46:43 had access to the same information that
46:45 they did that they had. And we started
46:47 off by themes and say, "Okay, which
46:49 companies fit into these themes, you
46:51 know, and if it was four, we'd buy the
46:54 share." So and as things went so you
46:57 started to develop a knowledge of these
47:00 businesses to a point where my entire
47:03 business now or or you know I have a
47:06 very nice little business there um with
47:09 most of it 80% offshore which we've been
47:11 doing for 15 years and you know the
47:13 whole point was everybody said what do
47:15 you know you know what do you know you
47:18 know and I and I promise you there were
47:20 times when we stood in the market and
47:22 stayed in in the market. I said, "This
47:23 doesn't seem right." When people wanted
47:26 to go out, when all the big names would
47:28 say, "Get out of tech, get out of this,
47:30 get out of this." I said, "No, it
47:32 doesn't seem right." And I just stay the
47:35 course. Stay the course. So I use it in
47:37 my even in my old age you know saying
47:40 listen you can learn new tricks and you
47:43 not I was never at a disadvantage
47:46 uh in fact in sometimes advantage to
47:49 some of the big names u you know that we
47:52 know about so you can do it and you have
47:54 all the access in the world to actually
47:58 do that. Dave, just a final point here.
48:00 Uh, while the US has produced companies
48:04 like Amazon, Tesla with the South
48:07 African, uh, Apple and Asia has produced
48:11 10 cent with South African uh, funding
48:13 from the early days. Here we seem to be
48:16 stuck in the old economy. It seems to be
48:20 almost like uh we've we've got a mindset
48:22 which says let's build factories and
48:25 employ lots of people which kind of the
48:27 robots have taken that game if not the
48:32 robots then the Chinese. So, so I guess
48:36 my question is how does one start? You
48:37 you spoke about fixing South Africa
48:40 block by block physically, but how does
48:43 one start fixing the South African mindset
48:44 mindset
48:49 block by block intellectually that hey
48:51 that doesn't work anymore. You can't
48:52 build factories that are going to make
48:54 things because the robots and the
48:56 Chinese have got that. uh you need to
48:58 now look at things differently and
49:00 you've got huge advantages including
49:03 that we have the same access to the
49:05 technology that anybody in the world has
49:06 got. How do you how do you do that
49:08 blockby-block story?
49:10 >> You need you need the voices, you need
49:14 the powerful uh people, you know, you
49:16 need people to start giving that message
49:19 and you start to know you need examples.
49:20 You know, I'm building this kind of
49:22 factory. This is what it does and and
49:25 from that other people will follow. You
49:28 need those pathfinders, those
49:31 trailblazers to to start doing it and to
49:32 create that environment that this
49:35 happens. And we don't do it, you know.
49:37 And also government's to blame because
49:41 government still wants uh has an old
49:43 mindset of how an economy should
49:46 operate. Uh it's not moving forward.
49:48 It's it's uh you know its whole attitude
49:51 towards what a factory should be and uh
49:52 you know what an economy should be
49:55 benefitication of metals or benefit you
49:57 know of minerals and so on. We still
50:00 have that uh we still have that mindset
50:02 and they're pretty good people. They're
50:04 pretty good people here in South Africa
50:07 at our universities who have got those
50:09 attitudes who can start it. But we've
50:11 got to have an example, you know, where
50:14 everybody comes and stares in awe, you
50:16 know, at this new factory that's uh
50:18 robotic and and some of the modern
50:21 factories are just phenomenal. And you
50:23 know, when I listen to Seammens and when
50:25 you see what you know what they look at
50:28 Caterpillar, you know, I mean
50:31 Caterpillar, what what is Caterpillar?
50:33 You'd think of it as a yellow metal, you
50:36 know, but that's becoming an AI company
50:40 because not only are they applying AI in
50:41 the factories, in other words, to
50:43 produce the caterpillars, but the
50:45 caterpillar machines themselves are AI
50:47 machines where you don't need people to
50:50 operate and everything. They will be run
50:52 uh autonomously, you know, or is that
50:56 the right word here? So, you know, those
50:57 are the kind of things that we've got to
51:00 start seeing now and doing. I know it
51:02 might cost labor but when an economy
51:04 thrives regardless everybody benefits
51:06 from it because it grows out its
51:08 technicals in other ways
51:11 >> and we uh I remember visiting India and
51:14 being reminded when looking around in
51:16 India and at the enormous levels of
51:18 poverty I mean the reality there is that
51:20 people literally sleep on the streets
51:21 every night you go to Mumbai there's
51:24 just like millions of people who
51:26 literally take their little little
51:27 blankets and they sleep on the streets
51:31 and and to understand the the
51:34 philosophy, the mentality in India which
51:36 was all about we've got to get this
51:38 right. We've got to turn this around.
51:40 We've got to promote enterprise. We've
51:43 got to get an economy that is thriving
51:44 because that's the only way we're going
51:45 to get these people off the streets and
51:48 give them some kind of a future. And you
51:50 can see that the Indian economy is
51:53 thriving and growing despite the
51:55 enormous uh challenge of taking a
51:57 billion people. Now we in South Africa
52:00 have got 60 million people. We're a
52:02 fraction of India. We're small by
52:05 comparison. It's a much easier fix. And
52:08 yet the mindsets of the Indians are just
52:11 light years ahead of us. It appears. Who
52:13 knows David maybe with with your wisdom
52:17 and your continued banging on the drum
52:20 or banging on the door one day that door
52:23 will finally open. And I I remember
52:25 listening to someone talking about uh in
52:27 fact it was Peter Major yesterday in the
52:29 conversation we had in Mining Weekly. He
52:31 said Alexander the Great when he
52:35 attacked the Persian cities, he would
52:39 put up his uh uh
52:43 siege uh warfare and bang and bang and
52:45 bang and bang against the walls of these
52:47 Persian cities and you couldn't see
52:50 anything. But eventually eventually the
52:52 cracks came through and eventually the
52:54 walls fell down. Now that is how
52:56 Alexander the Great conquered an empire
52:59 many times his size. perhaps with your
53:03 banging away one day um those cracks
53:04 well I guess I think the cracks have
53:08 appeared already and that the reality of
53:10 what we faced with a country with one of
53:12 the highest unemployment rates in the
53:13 world a company where the criminal
53:16 justice system your rule of law has been
53:18 infiltrated at the very least
53:20 infiltrated by criminals and we know
53:22 that from the Mlanga commission and what
53:25 Muanazi had to say a country that has
53:28 got everything going for it excepting
53:32 the wrong mindset. Bring on those those
53:34 uh people who will change and look at
53:35 things differently. And we don't have to
53:42 go the way of Argentina pre uh Malay or
53:46 Venezuela during the the Chavea eras. We
53:48 can actually make this into a very very
53:50 successful country for all people in
53:52 South Africa. And I think people like
53:53 you David have have played a big role
53:55 and will continue to do so. We hope.
54:00 >> Thank you. Hope I look I think we all
54:03 love being here. We we don't want it to
54:05 change. But you've got to recognize that
54:09 uh uh change is you and and also don't
54:10 don't keep your mouth shut, you know,
54:12 don't if you've got something to say as
54:14 long as it's not insulting, you know,
54:15 when it's constructive. And I think
54:17 that's the big difference. Be constructive.
54:18 constructive. So
54:19 So
54:21 >> keep banging away on those walls and
54:24 eventually the reality will dawn. David
54:27 Shapiro, South Africa's favorite stock
54:30 broker. He is the man at Sassin
54:32 Securities. We look forward to seeing
54:35 more of David in 2026. I'm Alec Hog from biz.com.
