0:02 [Music]
0:05 Al Jazer podcasts.
0:08 >> Today in the US, the killing of a
0:10 controversial political influencer.
0:12 >> US right-wing activist and commentator
0:14 Charlie Kirk has died after being shot
0:17 in the neck at an event at Utah Valley University.
0:18 University.
0:20 >> Could the assassination of a right-wing
0:22 activist and a close ally of President
0:26 Trump push US political violence into a
0:29 new phase? I'm Malika Bilal and this is
0:31 the take. [Music]
0:35 [Music]
0:36 >> My name is Matthew Bod and I'm a
0:38 professor at the University of North
0:39 Georgia and I study religious rhetoric
0:42 and I've been writing about Charlie Kirk
0:43 and Turning Point USA for several years now.
0:44 now.
0:46 >> Well, Professor Matthew, welcome to the
0:47 take. It's good to have you here,
0:49 though, of course, the circumstances are
0:52 not good. We are speaking on Thursday
0:54 morning, a day after the shooting death
0:56 of right-wing political activist Charlie Kirk.
0:57 Kirk.
0:59 >> This morning, the hunt is underway for
1:02 Charlie Kirk's killer. The charismatic
1:04 conservative activist shot at Utah
1:06 Valley University. Kirk was discussing
1:08 mass shootings in America when a shot
1:10 rang out.
1:12 >> You had written a book on him. So, where
1:14 were you when you heard the news and
1:16 what were your first thoughts?
1:18 >> You know, my wife called me about him
1:19 getting shot when I was in my office. uh
1:21 meeting the students and then on the way
1:24 home I um got the notification of his
1:27 death. Uh so I was in the car and and I
1:30 got choked up. I I I cried.
1:33 >> Um if you feel comfortable elaborating
1:35 what was going through your mind, what
1:38 was behind that choking up moment?
1:40 >> I cried for his family, uh for his
1:42 widowed wife and and two children. I
1:44 have two small children around the same
1:46 age. and and being an advocate against
1:49 gun violence, I know the lifelong impact
1:53 that that can have. But I also knew that
1:55 I I was I was uh choked up crying for
1:58 our nation. Uh to have this type of assassination
2:00 assassination
2:03 um in our country just um is is is a
2:05 flashing red light to our democracy. To
2:08 shoot a private citizen who merely is uh
2:11 trying to influence our democracy um is
2:13 a line we crossed yesterday. and and I
2:16 don't know how we come back from that.
2:18 >> So, this is a story that will likely
2:20 have many updates as the days and the
2:24 weeks continue, but a lot of people in
2:25 our audience, especially
2:28 internationally, might be wondering who
2:30 Charlie Kirk was.
2:32 >> That's a lot of people
2:34 >> Charlie Kirk drew an enthusiastic crowd
2:37 as he typically did for a debate at Utah
2:38 Valley University.
2:40 >> Bring the best libs that Utah has to offer.
2:43 offer.
2:44 tell us what we need to know about him
2:45 in a few words.
2:47 >> So, I mean, he was a political
2:49 commentator. He appeared on Fox News and
2:50 the other conservative networks. He had
2:52 a three-hour radio program on one of the
2:54 largest radio networks in America. But
2:56 his his claim to fame, of course, is is
2:58 starting Turning Point USA. And most
3:01 people in America see that as a college
3:02 uh student, conservative student
3:05 organization, but it has grown in the
3:06 last few years well beyond that. They
3:08 have more high school chapters now than
3:10 they have college chapters. But he has
3:11 also put millions of dollars and the and
3:13 the turning point budget is upwards of
3:16 hundred million uh into seven different
3:19 cultural arenas uh avenues in which he
3:20 has made turning point into the
3:22 indispensable organization for
3:24 conservative causes and and this is an
3:25 international story. There is a turning
3:28 point UK, there's a turning point
3:30 Australia and Charlie Kirk was in South
3:32 Korea and Japan last week uh exporting
3:34 turning point ideals uh to those two countries.
3:35 countries.
3:37 >> Can you explain why he was considered so
3:39 controversial? Charlie Kirk was
3:41 controversial because he often promoted
3:44 far-right um views about immigration
3:46 which obviously has an international
3:48 link uh different racial groups talked
3:50 about gender he talked about a lot of
3:54 issues that would be on the far right. H
3:56 we are talking about someone who went
4:00 from suburban Chicago teenager to
4:04 someone who at this point had millions
4:07 of followers online and is getting an
4:09 Oval Office eulogy. So US President
4:12 Donald Trump described Charlie as a
4:14 patriot and a martyr for truth and
4:17 freedom. Charlie was a patriot who
4:20 devoted his life to the cause of open
4:22 debate and the country that he loved so
4:25 much, the United States of America.
4:27 >> The president also ordered flags at half
4:30 staff for him. So, you mentioned he's
4:32 influential and that is now being
4:35 exported abroad. How did he become so influential?
4:36 influential?
4:38 >> You know, I think that one of the things
4:42 that got him to where he was was his
4:45 charisma. I mean he these campus events
4:46 were his bread and butter and he would
4:50 engage with people of all um liberal
4:51 progressive politics and bring them up
4:53 to the microphone. But I think early on
4:58 in Turning Point um he uh saw this kind
5:01 of uh man against the world um mantra
5:02 that that he was going to college
5:04 campuses where he saw that where there
5:06 were in liberal indoctrination camps and
5:07 he was going to make conservative
5:09 students speak out more and he was very
5:10 successful at that and donors wanted to
5:12 donate to that. But really what made him
5:14 was uh or gave Turning Point the the
5:17 edge was he became very uh friendly and
5:18 a and a very tight relationship with
5:20 Donald Trump Jr. in 2016 as his father
5:23 ran for president. And so since then uh
5:25 President Trump has appeared at Turning
5:27 Point Events over the years. Um and then
5:30 he has his own platforms that he uh uses
5:31 every single day. He drives
5:32 conversations as you mentioned has a
5:34 large social media following. I think
5:36 what what Charlie Kirk was good at was
5:39 public engagement speaking to uh people
5:41 in ways they understood. He translated
5:43 political topics into millennial speak
5:44 if you want to say that. And I think
5:47 that uh he did that all um without a
5:48 college degree.
5:51 >> He was also often quoted as saying that
5:54 the idea behind Turning Point USA was to
5:57 save Western civilization. What does
5:58 that mean?
6:01 >> That's a tough question. Um because he
6:02 it's so broad. I mean Western
6:05 civilization to him includes democracy,
6:06 includes that we're a republic. It
6:08 includes free speech, but it it it does
6:10 have a racial element to it. Uh he
6:12 suggested there is a war on white people
6:14 happening in America.
6:15 >> The spiritual battle is coming to the
6:18 west and the enemies are wokeism or
6:21 Marxism combining with Islamism to go
6:23 after what we call the American way of life.
6:23 life.
6:25 >> I think western civilization to him is
6:28 about liberty and freedom. Um and it but
6:30 it is about a particular culture, a
6:32 particular Christian culture that he
6:34 wanted to see America embraced that he
6:36 thought America embraced in its origins
6:38 that he he suggested wrongly that
6:40 America started as a Christian nation.
6:42 Um and I think that western civilization
6:44 was a standin for that. He wanted to
6:45 return to that. So I guess if you want
6:48 to say that his call to western
6:49 civilization is kind of like MAGA and
6:53 making America great again. H well,
6:55 Professor Kirk, as you mentioned, was
6:58 known for traveling the country, hosting
7:01 debates, giving these Q&As's at college
7:03 campuses, and this latest one was at
7:05 Utah Valley University.
7:06 >> Do you know how many mass shooters there
7:09 have been in America over the last 10 years,
7:10 years,
7:11 >> counting or not counting gang violence? Great.
7:12 Great.
7:14 >> And he was shot while answering a
7:17 question about mass shootings. He was
7:20 known to be an outspoken supporter of
7:21 gun rights.
7:25 And video of this moment has been
7:29 circulating online with people making um
7:31 that remark or pointing that out. It's
7:34 reverberated around the world.
7:37 >> You've attended some of his events, so
7:39 you know what they're typically like.
7:42 What reactions to this event have you
7:45 seen that have stood out to you, good or bad?
7:46 bad?
7:48 >> Um I mean these events are very
7:49 intimate. It's him sitting in a chair
7:51 underneath the tent. There are there are
7:52 some barriers, but it it's people 10 ft
7:54 away yelling and screaming perhaps at
7:56 him or debating him in a way. There's
7:58 just a massive amount of people and it
8:00 is joyous at times. He starts by
8:02 throwing out red MAGA hats and and most
8:04 of the people I would say they are there
8:06 to see him because they want to be a
8:09 part of his movement. You know, it's
8:10 kind of hard to say that he was shot
8:12 because of what he said at that moment.
8:14 I it it seems and we don't know who did
8:16 this, but it seems it was a a a sniper
8:18 from 200 yards away. So, I don't know if
8:19 he was just, but yes, he has talked
8:22 about shootings. Uh, he has talked about
8:24 uh the different uh mental illnesses
8:25 that he thinks people commit or have
8:27 when they commit shootings. He's
8:29 advocate of the Second Amendment. I
8:31 heard him at one event at the University
8:32 of Georgia say that he owned many guns.
8:34 I never see him carry one. Uh certainly,
8:37 but I think that uh the reactions that
8:40 I've seen um online, sadly, some of them
8:45 are um very negative um about we should
8:46 not honor his life, we should not honor
8:50 his legacy. Um, and you know, I as a
8:51 person who's targeted by Turning Point
8:54 USA, for advocating against gun
8:56 violence, who wrote an op-ed against a
8:58 law in our state that allow concealed
9:00 weapons on college campuses, it it is
9:03 just the deepest of irony that Charlie
9:12 >> You hinted at your connection to this
9:13 story, your personal connection to the
9:16 story. So, let's dive in to that. The
9:18 book that you've written looks into
9:20 Kirk's conservative youth movement that
9:23 he co-founded, Turning Point USA,
9:27 >> but your connection begins before that.
9:29 >> I know that they put you on their
9:33 professor watch list in 2016, one of 100
9:35 names, and he blocked you on Twitter.
9:36 What happened? What's the story?
9:38 >> Um, you know, I I wrote an op-ed uh when
9:40 they were debating a bill here in our
9:41 state about allowing concealed weapons
9:43 on college campuses. that bill became a
9:46 law and they found that oped when they
9:48 were looking for a list of things that
9:50 they didn't like in 2016 to make this
9:52 kind of first viral moment for Turning
9:54 Point, this professor watch list. It was
9:55 certainly not the first list of
9:57 professors being targeted. Um, and then
9:59 to be honest with you, I didn't think
10:00 much of it when it happened, but I
10:04 quickly learned who they were. Um, and
10:05 so I started writing about them. And and
10:07 to be honest with you, I kept I kept
10:09 posting my writings underneath his his
10:11 uh tweets and I'm sure that's why they
10:13 they blocked me as one does.
10:16 >> Yes. Yes. Um so, you know, I I think
10:18 that I've written different things about
10:20 them over the years. Um and they're
10:22 they're well aware of me. They've been
10:24 adding um um things about me to my
10:26 professor watchless listing. Uh they
10:28 claimed on that that I made my career
10:30 out of Charlie Kirk, which is an
10:32 exaggeration, but I will say that I I've
10:34 written a lot about him. And so I I have
10:36 some idea I think of what Turning Point
10:39 is. And and the book lays out this plan
10:40 to take over the the seven cultural
10:43 institutions uh that Charlie Kirk has
10:45 has targeted these uh media, business,
10:48 government, education, and on down the
10:50 line. And uh to be honest with you, I I
10:52 I don't know where Turning Point goes
10:54 from here. Uh do they continue this
10:55 plan? Do they see that as Charlie Kirk's
10:58 legacy and they double down on it? Um
10:59 you know, you can't replace Charlie
11:01 Kirk. uh he was the face of turning
11:03 point, the energy u the founder
11:05 obviously uh so I don't know where they
11:08 go from here.
11:12 >> Professor, you are the epitome I would
11:15 venture to say of the idea that two
11:17 things can be true at the same time. So,
11:19 we started this conversation
11:21 with you saying that you were choked up
11:23 to hear of this, you know, just this
11:24 tragic killing,
11:27 >> but also Turning Point USA targeted you,
11:29 put you on a watch list, and has
11:31 continued to target you.
11:34 >> How do you hold those two things? I I do
11:38 admit it is difficult um to to know what
11:40 Turning Point is and to know that I'm
11:42 I'm one on that watch list uh to
11:45 continue to follow me as I follow them
11:47 on Twitter because of who Charlie Kirk
11:49 was and his shooting on a college
11:53 campus. Um I I think that my emotions
11:57 were directed to um that impact. um as
11:59 as a professor, as a person who talks to
12:01 students, um and many of them who knew
12:03 Charlie Kirk or wanted, you know, to
12:06 know him, uh I I see that um that I
12:07 think that's why I had the reaction that
12:09 I did.
12:11 >> More with Professor Matthew after the break.
12:17 >> Well, Professor Matthew, as we said,
12:19 details are still emerging and an
12:22 investigation is underway. We don't know
12:25 all that took place just yet. We knew
12:28 perhaps even less on Wednesday just
12:30 after the shooting when President Trump
12:33 gave his Oval Office remarks. And yet in
12:36 those remarks he blamed quote radical
12:37 left political violence.
12:40 >> Those on the radical left have compared
12:43 wonderful Americans like Charlie to
12:46 Nazis and the world's worst mass
12:49 murderers and criminals. This kind of
12:52 rhetoric is directly responsible for the
12:54 terrorism that we're seeing in our
12:58 country today and it must stop right now.
12:58 now.
13:02 >> Kirk has created this force of young
13:05 conservatives led by the president. But
13:06 what do you think it means for the
13:11 leadership of that movement? Um, I I do
13:14 think that the movement of mainly young
13:17 white males u who are conservative, some
13:19 in college, some not, I I I I do think
13:22 that they will double down on their
13:25 support of President Trump. His death
13:28 will only spur more not just political
13:30 involvement or political advocacy, but
13:33 will spur more anger uh more distrust of
13:34 the other side, more distrust of the
13:37 media. I think also that um you know
13:39 with President Trump's statement, he he
13:41 did mention the the radical left, but he
13:42 also mentioned vague organizations that
13:45 may have to be blamed for this. Um and
13:49 and so am I to be included in that group
13:51 because I write a critical book. Who
13:53 knows? We have seen some terrible things from
13:54 from
13:56 >> uh the White House in the last 6 months
13:58 since he took office. Um, and I think
14:01 that him using vague language like that
14:04 really sends a message that he wants to
14:06 do something in response to this. Uh, he
14:08 wants to act in a way that he's acted in
14:11 Los Angeles or Chicago or Washington DC.
14:13 I don't know what it would be, but I
14:15 think that uh the MAGA movement,
14:17 especially the young, uh, conservative
14:20 males that he has um, uh, attracted to
14:24 himself want that as well. Mhm.
14:27 >> Well, earlier you said you don't
14:29 necessarily fear yourself being
14:30 targeted. Um,
14:32 >> that could change, but not right now,
14:34 >> of course, for for any of us.
14:37 >> But this did happen on a college campus.
14:39 The school year just started. You work
14:42 at a college campus. What does it feel
14:44 like right now?
14:46 >> My particular campus had a gun incident
14:50 in April. Um, and that that event has uh
14:53 really changed our campus, our school. I
14:54 think the death of Charlie Kirk uh from
15:00 a gun on college campus will be the um
15:04 start of of more uh violence uh perhaps
15:06 uh not necessarily on college campuses,
15:08 but I I think that you know what what
15:09 Charlie Kirk tried to do was to get
15:11 conservative students to speak out more.
15:14 I find in my classes that students don't
15:16 want to speak and they don't want to um
15:18 get people riled up or they don't want
15:21 to seem negative. His death now seems to
15:24 push people even further back into not
15:25 having class discussions or not having
15:28 what college should be about.
15:31 >> Well, you are a professor of uh
15:33 religious rhetoric. So, I want to talk
15:34 about rhetoric. >> Sure.
15:34 >> Sure.
15:37 >> Over the course of the past 24 hours,
15:39 we've been seeing many people mourning
15:41 Charlie Kirk's death. former Fox News
15:44 hosts broke down on air talking about it.
15:44 it.
15:52 that he's dead
16:00 An MSNBC analyst was reportedly fired
16:02 for comments about this, calling Kirk a
16:05 quote divisive figure who promoted quote
16:07 hate speech. But let's look at some of
16:10 the things that Kirk said. He said,
16:13 quote, "Black women do not have brain
16:15 processing power to be taken seriously.
16:17 You have to go steal a white person's slot."
16:17 slot."
16:20 >> Joy Reed and Michelle Obama and Sheila
16:23 Jackson Lee and Katangi Brown Jackson
16:24 were affirmative action picks. We would
16:27 have been called the racist.
16:30 >> He said that Palestine quote doesn't
16:32 exist. He has said, "I can't stand
16:37 empathy. I think empathy is made up.
16:40 Professor Matthew, how do you square
16:44 Kirk the martyr with Kirk the provocore?
16:46 >> I think that the two things are related.
16:49 He's he's being framed as a martyr for
16:52 speaking out for quote free speech. I
16:53 don't necessarily think he was
16:54 interested in everybody having free
16:56 speech. I think he's being framed as
16:58 >> You were blocked on Twitter for your
16:59 speech. Right.
17:03 >> Exactly. Um I I think that his being
17:05 framed as a martyr is for conservative
17:07 causes. It's not necessarily for
17:09 anything else. Uh his provocative
17:11 statements, his statements uh that he
17:13 would call truth or that he would call
17:16 truth seeeking uh are what he is being
17:18 uh framed as a martyr for. Uh and that
17:20 that that should tell you all you need
17:21 to know about the political divisions in
17:24 our country. The I don't say
17:26 independents and middle people and
17:28 progressives are not framing him as as a
17:30 martyr. Um it's the people who who liked
17:32 what he had to say that are framing him
17:34 as a martyr and all the things that you
17:35 list. There are several more we could
17:38 talk about uh from calling the Supreme
17:41 Court justice uh DEI hire uh or talk
17:45 about black pilots. Um and I think that
17:47 um it was a provocative tour, but we
17:49 need to be very specific about what he
17:51 was uh being provocative about. Uh he
17:54 pushed a anti-immigration message. Um,
17:57 he pushed a a a pro-white message much
17:59 like Turk and Carlson. Uh, he pushed
18:02 conspiracy theories. U, he said a lot
18:05 that was wrong. Uh, both morally and and
18:08 factually. Uh, but at the same time, he
18:11 was a really personable person uh, and
18:13 really engaged with people. Uh, so yes,
18:14 as you said, two things can be true at
18:17 the same time.
18:20 >> Also, as we said, Kirk was very prun. I
18:22 don't want this conversation to pass,
18:24 professor, without talking about the
18:26 fact that this shooting came on the same
18:28 day as another school shooting, this
18:30 time at a high school campus in
18:32 Colorado. It also came just a few months
18:35 after a man targeted, shot, and killed a
18:36 Minnesota Democratic state
18:39 representative. And the list could go
18:42 on. What keeps you up at night more? Is
18:44 it the guns or is it the rise of
18:46 political violence? And
18:47 >> I hate to choose between the two,
18:49 honestly. Uh the rise of political
18:51 violence comes from the guns. It comes
18:54 from a rise of rhetoric that we seem to
18:57 not have a a a level of stopping.
19:00 Charlie Kirk raised the level of
19:02 rhetoric about spiritual warfare in this
19:04 country. Good versus evil. Uh he was
19:08 part of that. Um he also though was
19:10 asked at at an event in Idaho, when do
19:12 we get to use the guns? It came from a
19:14 faright person and he said directly yes.
19:15 No, that would be a trap. That's what
19:17 the Democrats want you to do. that would
19:19 be a bad idea. So, I I credit him for
19:21 that. But at the same time, he talked
19:24 about again owning guns and using guns
19:26 as a way to defend yourself from the
19:28 government. He at times towed the line.
19:31 Um I think that he knew the rise in
19:32 political violence was happening. He
19:35 talked about a cold civil war, but I
19:36 also think that that he didn't really
19:40 know how to um tone it down because he
19:43 was successful at it.
19:48 How do you see the US changing after not
19:51 just the fact that it's his death, but
19:55 it is the the killing of a prominent
19:59 politically active person with this mass
20:01 appeal caught on video, circulated
20:04 around the world on social media.
20:07 >> Uh yeah, I we already have conspiracies
20:09 theories spreading because we don't know
20:14 who the shooter was. I think this is um
20:17 crossing a line and that line being that
20:20 we now are solving our political
20:22 differences through violence. Um so I do
20:24 worry about the future of our democracy
20:26 about the future of our ability to
20:29 compromise uh the future of our ability
20:32 to have religious pluralism. Um he
20:33 talked about Charlie Kirk talked about a
20:35 Christian country and I think that many
20:36 people were against that. I being a
20:39 Christian advocated against that. Um, I
20:42 think that this is a moment where we
20:44 certainly can put it into a political
20:46 football and put it into martyrdom. Um,
20:49 but I think it will have um
20:52 reverberations beyond the politics. I
20:54 want to compare it to uh the shooting of
20:56 Ronald Reagan uh in the 80s because of
20:58 what happened with the Brady Bill.
20:59 Obviously, I think that the opposite of
21:01 that will happen. There will be more gun
21:03 freedom, more gun usage, more use of the
21:05 military. I think that President Trump
21:08 wants to do that. So if we think about a
21:10 parallel, you know, what happened after
21:12 um Reagan was shot just in the opposite way.
21:14 way.
21:16 >> Professor Matthew Bod, thank you so much
21:18 for walking us through this. >> Yeah,
21:18 >> Yeah,
21:19 >> thank you for this conversation.
21:26 >> And that's the take. Now, we want to
21:29 hear from you. What stories do you want
21:31 to see next on the show? Let us know in
21:33 the comments below what you'd like us to
21:36 cover. Your feedback helps shape future
21:39 episodes, so don't be shy. I'll see you tomorrow.
