This content explores how to live a more meaningful life by reframing common pursuits like "impact" and "fulfillment" through the lens of design thinking, emphasizing "aliveness" and embracing the inherent imperfections of reality.
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You're the co-founder of Stamford's Life
Design Lab. >> True.
>> True.
>> What's that?
>> It's a little tiny operation inside the
design program that applies the
innovation principles of design thinking
to the wicked problem of designing your
life at and after university. So, oh,
Bill and Dave realized we made all these
products and all these different
experiences using design thinking.
Started at Stanford back in 1963, you
know, and we used it at Apple in the
early days and everybody's it's kind of
the thing that built Silicon Valley.
Hey, we could apply it to ourselves. we
could design ourselves as well, you
know, and that's a real problem people
have. And we gave it a try and it seems
to have worked out.
>> Do people not already try to design
their life? Is that not what you do when
you set a to-do list or have a calendar?
>> So the [clears throat] word design in
the field of design really means there's
two categories. There's what I would
call craft design or engineering design
and then there's design thinking. And so
the the older school, you know, so I'm
an ergonomist, you know, I'm a I'm a car
designer, I'm a graphic designer, you
know, I'm an illustrator. So designing
things precisely figuring out exactly
what this particular shape and look of
something is going to be has been around
for a long long long long time. You can
get a master's in design at Stanford and
still not be very good at drawing. And
there are many design schools who think
that's a moral wrong. Then there's this
design thinking idea been around only
for the past 50 years um which is an
innovation methodology. It's an approach
to coming up with new ideas. And so when
we talk when people I want to I want to
design my life, what they're really
saying is I want to engineer my life. I
want to I want to figure it out. I want
to solve it. I want to answer it. I want
to craft it. And that's a perfectly good
thing to do. Uh we're not saying that's
the wrong thing to do. Um so people have
been trying to do that for a long long
time. What they've not been necessarily
doing very well and they're getting
stuck on is is finding their way. So
like I walk into the career center when
I'm 19 years old back in the 70s and I
kind of and they go, "Can you help me?"
And they go, "Well, sure. We got a whole
building full of people. We love helping
young people like you, you know. So,
what do you want to do? I kind of go,
"Yep, that's the question." I kind of
go, "Okay, so what's the answer?" I kind
of, "No, that's the question." And they
go, "What?" I said, "What do I want to
do?" And they go, "Right, what do you
want to do?" I said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa.
This conversation's going nowhere." And
they said, "We have to Here's how this
works. You tell us what you want, then
we'll help you go get it." And I go,
"That's easy. Getting stuff is easy. The
hard part is figuring out what you
want." They kind of go, "Well,
>> that's just on that point.
>> You're supposed to know.
>> Getting stuff is easy. Figuring out what
you want to get is the difficult part.
>> Yeah. So that's that's what we help
people do. So the the the objective of
the life design lab, you asked that
question, is we assist people in the
formation of a conscious competency in
life and vocational wayfinding.
>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like
>> how do you find your way? >> Uhhuh.
>> Uhhuh.
>> We give you tools to do that. Life is an
improv skit. We're improv trainers.
>> Orientientering for your life direction. >> Bingo.
>> Bingo.
>> Yeah. There's maps and compasses when
there we make the big distinction
between navigation and wayfinding
technical terms in design. So navigation
I know where I am. I know where I'm
going. I have the data about the space
in between. It's what your GPS does
really well. I can optimize the path
preferably as straight as possible. [gasps]
[gasps]
In wicked problems where I don't know
what I'm looking for until I find it and
I'm going to this very important place
called the future about which we have no
data because it doesn't exist yet. I
can't do that because I barely know
where I am and I sure don't know where
I'm going
>> and I don't have any data about the
space in between. So, what am I going to
do? Well, I'm going to do an empirical
thing called try it. We call it
prototyping. So, I'm going to make this
move. I'm going to go I'm going to go
talk to Chris and see how that goes. You
know, then what did I learn that day?
Um, [clears throat]
and then, you know, I'll go here and
then I'll go over here. A very jagged
pathway. Might go backward. I might have
to start over again. Seems terribly
inefficient except I'm learning my way
forward till finally like, oh, that's
it. And then the destination I'm looking
for finally appears and I land there.
But that boing boing boing boing boing
boing boing thing very not a straight
line in a wayfinding task. That bouncy
line is literally the shortest distance
between these two points because that's
what mortals have to do. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> You know it's interesting but it's
inefficient. My friend George has this
idea of GPS brain. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> And what he means by GPS brain is uh
forgiveness with yourself when you don't
take the right turn. that if you miss
it, at no point does the GPS say, "You
[ __ ] idiot, right? Why didn't you
take that? You should have you should
have turned right and you've missed it
and now it's going to take another five
minutes, right?" At no point does the
GPS do that. It just continually updates
the directions. And I think that's a lovely
lovely
>> uh it makes me think about releasing. It
makes me think about David Hawings
letting go type.
>> I totally agree. In fact, no, having
been in the valley for a long long time,
I know that now and then, you know,
coders put tricks and and uh jokes in
code all the time. And so I wonder if in
the GPS code, you know, if I do the
wrong thing on purpose, like it'll go
straight and turn left on on you, you
know, Alpine Street, and I make a
U-turn, you know, and then it says,
"Okay, so go down the street and make
another U-turn." And and I do it nine
times. On the 10th time, it's kind of
go, "Come on, Dave. What the heck?
You're wasting my time here.
>> You unlocked this special feature."
>> Yeah, I unlock I tried like 15 mistakes
and it is totally
>> the angry co-pilot feature.
>> And it's not even, by the way, it's not
even when you did the wrong thing, you
did the wrong thing.
For it to have been wrong, you had to
have had access to information that
would have told you it would have been
right up front. You didn't make a
mistake. You made a move. You learned
something that said, "Oh, continuing on
the same collinear pathway would be
sub-optimal. I'm going to actually make
an adjustment now." That's not a
mistake. It's an it's just a move.
>> What do people mean when they're talking
about meaning, do you think?
>> That's a big one. Um well
[clears throat] the reason we wrote this
book I'm to you know get fairly direct
is that what overwhelmingly people mean
when they talk to us about the meaning
they're not getting enough of is they're
talking about one of two things.
Primarily they're talking about having
an impact and I'm just I'm just am I
making a difference? Am I changing the
world? Do I matter? Is it working? You
know did I make the impact that would
make my life worthwhile? M and so the
the for I'd say 90% of the people we've
been talking to recently that motivated
us to write this book uh the one and
only valid form of meaning making
they've named is impact and right behind
that would be fulfillment I'm just not
feeling fulfilled and for most people
fulfillment means am I getting to
manifest the fullness of who I really am
because that's what Maslo told them
fulfillment was in the original 1943
paper that invented the hierarchy of
needs according to Abraham Maslo the
apex was um self-actualization and you
attain self-actualization by literally
becoming all that one can be and if you
become all that one can be according to
Maslo you will experience fulfillment.
Um and we think that's dead wrong
because we've known for a long time in
the life design lab that all of us
contain far more aliveness than one
lifetime permits us to live out. There's
more than one of you in there. That's
the good news. So if you've decided you
have to be all that you are and all that
you are won't even fit in one lifetime.
And if I haven't fully manifested
everything that I could possibly be,
then my life is unfulfilling. I just
have decided to have a policy that I
have to be despondent for the rest of my
life, that's a bad choice. So both the
people who are stuck on impact is the
only way meaning really deserves to work
or I have to be entirely manifested to
be fulfilled. Both of those people are
set up on dead ends and we'd like to
give them a better idea.
>> What's the better idea?
>> But our idea is, you know, to the So the
reframe on impact is, you know, if you
put all your meaning eggs in the impact
basket, impact is a good thing. I've
worked hard at making an impact. You're
working on an impact. It's not worthless
by any means, but it's also largely out
of our control because some of the other
eight billion people might go off script
when you're not looking. You know, if
you do everything right, it may not
work. Doing it right is not anywhere
near enough to pull it off. So, impact
is is a bet. And frankly, after you make
the impact, even successfully, three,
two, one. Well, what have you done for
us lately? The halfife on impact is
short. Have you ever seen uh Scotty Sheffller's
Sheffller's
interview when he won the PGA Masters
Tour? It was from last year.
>> No, but what what do you have to say?
>> So, he basically sits down and has this
room of press and he's just won the thing,
thing,
>> the big thing that he's been working
towards. He's the special jacket or the the
the
>> Yeah, the green jacket,
>> whatever it is.
>> And uh he basically spends seven minutes
talking about how fleeting and hollow
this experience is.
>> Yeah. And it's it's just phenomenal.
It's one of the best things that that
I've seen in a very long time. And I'm
kind of obsessed with the price that
high performers pay to be somebody that
everyone else admires.
>> Oh yeah.
>> And to see someone using the opportunity
to the apex.
>> Yeah. To filate himself. He could have
done that quite happily for 5 minutes
and no one would have thought otherwise.
He could have called out I mean I
remember that um Michael Jordan he got
inducted into the Hall of Fame 1993 and
he uses the entire speech just to call
out all of the people that have insulted
him. There's no gratitude at all. And
then Scotty does something similar.
There's a degree of gratitude but it's
very sanguin. It's very self-deprecating
and you would you I'll send you it once
we're finished. Absolutely love it. But
he basically says the same thing. He
says you know you
>> very quickly after this you are going to
ask me a question. So, what's next? You
are going to ask me the question, and I
need to go home tonight, and there's
going to be diapers to be changed and
trash to take out, and what are we
having for dinner? And life just comes
back around again.
>> Oh, man. So, the a couple years ago, the
US Olympic Committee calls and says,
"Can you help us?" They go, "Help you what?
what?
>> We're successful in the Olympics and
everyone's got gold medalist syndrome."
>> So, there's a training for after the
games. There's nothing quite as
thrilling as ascending the Olympic, you
know, platform where terrifying is
coming. The distance from the top of the
Olympic platform to dumpster diving is
terrifyingly short
>> and much shorter than the other side.
It's long to get up there and it's very
>> very short on the back side. Yeah. So,
they called up and we and I did a
training with them, you know. Um,
there's a group called Elite Meet, which
is a volunteer organization of recently
former top gun pilots, Rangers, Green
Berets, special forces, okay? People who
are the absolute best in their business.
Can kill you 75 ways. Do not piss these
people off. But most of them are lovely
human beings, by the way. I am very fond
of professional military. That's a whole
another conversation. Um, but they
retire out at 42 mostly. They start at
22, do their 20 years at 42. They're
incredibly good at what they do. The
world doesn't need them anymore. Now
what? So there's a whole group of their
peers kind of going, "This is going to
be hard on you. We're here to catch you."
you."
>> Um, and I've worked with them a little
bit. So yeah, absolutely. You know,
killing the impact thing, you know, can
be a double-edged sword. So So thing one
about impact is you got to get eggs in
some other baskets and and the reframe
there is um there's because that's all
done in what we call the transactional
world, the get stuff done world. There's
another world we call the flow world,
which is really the present moment. This
thing called reality that's happening
right now that you could be experiencing
in a different way. is rich with
meaning-making experiences. So we'll
come back to that for the fulfillment
person who's stuck on that like okay the
reframe is no you can't be fulfilled but
you can be fully alive you can be
entirely here in this present moment um
and one thing that will help you accept
that that may be true the last big
reframe is because now we can celebrate
the scandal of particularity
which usually brings the question what
the hell is that
>> I'll let you inter yourself just keep going
going
>> it's okay stop me anytime it is it's
it's it's your show um the scandal of
particularity is originally a
theological then a philosophical
concept. And what it is that um turns
out the ultimate of anything, truth,
beauty, justice, purity is never
actually experienced in reality. Only
partial reflections temporarily
encountered in a very specific and
constrained moment in time. A
particularity are what we actually get.
We're longing for perfection, but all we
get is the particular. M
>> that's actually just the nature of
reality. So rather than like oh you see
the amazing sunset and what actually if
you really really attend to that amazing
sunset just as it's over and the sun
hits the horizon and you see the green
flash and you and whoa what do you want more?
more?
I want more. It wasn't quite enough. [gasps]
[gasps]
That isn't it fell short.
That is the fundamental nature of
reality. Reality is only expressed in
these particularities, all of which are partial.
partial.
>> And [clears throat] it's the fundamental
nature of the human person, which is
that thing you long for is how you're
made. So if you can befriend the longing,
longing,
it no longer is the problem of
everything's not enough. It's that oh, I
have a chance to participate in a
sincere reflection of that perfection
briefly. celebrate the heck out of it
because this is as good as it gets and
I'm going to come back tomorrow and try again.
again.
>> Befriending the longing. I want to come
back to that. One thing that's stuck in
my mind, the challenge of people who
have focused on impact for a long time. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> But also the route to which they
achieved their impact was also the
vehicle that delivered them their flow.
So if you are both, right? If you are a
gymnast, a very flowy sort of tennis
player, very flowy sort of thing.
>> You're a neurosurgeon.
>> You're you're now out of that. You're no
longer getting the impact that you had
and you've lost the flow
>> at the same time. I imagine that double
whammy must be very difficult.
>> It can be. Yeah. So I I I actually
stopped teaching undergrads at Stanford
back in 2018. I now mostly teach in the
DCI program, the Distinguished Careers
Institute. very fancy name for a gap
year for grown-ups. Anywhere from 45 to
90, mostly 55 to 75 years old, kind of
the old folks who used to think about
transitioning to what you used to call
retirement. And now what do I do? So,
it's a second half of life transition
for people. And the way I characterize
the big challenge of that, and these are
all not all necessarily rich hedge fund
people from New York, but we got plenty
of those. um could be a nonprofit
leader, you know, but they're all
distinguished people who had impact and
enjoyed doing that impactful thing well
and got into it and were in the flow and
now they don't necessarily want to be
that person anymore. So, it's the shift
from role to soul. So, the shift from
I'm a role-based person. I'm really good
at this, you know, gymnast thing. I'm
really good at the surgery thing
and I still value that, but it's not
first and foremost where my identity
wants to come from now. And as I move
away from that, you know, it's it's
sticky. Um, and um, boy, I'm really good
at making that version of me work. And
that's where kind of the shift into a to
a greater maturity is a very elective
move. And it starts anywhere from 30 to never.
Not much before 30 because you don't get
a neocortex till you're 27 or 28. A
little later in men. Big surprise, you
know. But look, you don't get you don't
get a Buddha. You don't get a Moses. you
don't get a a Jesus until um until 30 40
in Moses's case. It takes a while to
make a person. Um but once you get past
making a person, you know, then then you
you've got to you've got to build an ego
before you can transcend it.
>> You've got to have a life container
before you can empty it. So, so that
that task of turning yourself into a
person in your 30s, you know, your 20s,
30s, and 40s is a really important task.
But then once you've got one, once
you've got a person you trust enough
that you believe you deserve to exist,
Now it's time to start emptying out and
having a more transcendent experience.
And it's it is a real it's a real tough
transition for most people.
>> That manopause that happens to guys
toward the end of their 20s. I first saw
it in the way that me and my friends
trained fitness. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh and then it became everything. The
way that we thought about our
contribution to our friend group and the
way that we thought about money or goals
or family life or whatever. Um something
that has struck me there is the fact
that getting beyond 40 ancestrally would
have been increasingly rare. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And
>> And
>> death was more popular.
>> Well, more frequent.
>> What that what that suggests we can say popular.
popular.
>> Yeah. Uh what that suggests is that this
these challenges that we're facing we're
not only mismatched evolutionarily >> right
>> right
>> for the modern environment
>> even durationally yeah
>> we are mismatched for our current
environment and you can talk about an
aging population and birth rate decline
and you can go into that stuff but I
think what's more interesting is that
>> the uh adaptive systems that we have
even culturally myth
archetype like what does it mean if if
it's such a rarified strata to get into
50 60 70 years old >> right
>> right
>> where there's just not been a big enough
sample size of people from history to be
able to explain what that transition
actually looks like does that make sense
but I think what it really means is I
mean people made those transitions in
their mid late 30s to early 40s before
because they were going to die at 50 um
and now just the window of time during
which that transition can occur has stretched.
stretched.
>> Yeah. And shifted.
>> And shifted. And so what's happening is
people are doubling down.
You know, so William Bridges wrote the
book transitions making life making
sense of life's big changes. So he
posits years ago is an 80s self-help
classic. It's a good book um based on
Erikson's work that um uh changes are
outside in realities that happen to you.
Transitions are the internal experience
of managing them. And his observation
was that transitions are three steps,
not two. It's not an ending followed by
a new beginning. It's an ending followed
by the neutral zone followed by so you
know it's over then you're lost and then
you get refound. But you go you don't go
from found to found.
>> Such a good point. That's so good. if
you're really comfortable and and oh
I've extended and had a longer career
and I'm I started my fourth company at I
mean I started the left design lab at 54
>> you know and so and my my fourth startup
you know into my 70s you know it's kind
of like hey I like this the feedback
loop of doing stuff I'm good at and it
works is really gratifying
and then life kind of says yeah let's go
let's go off and be confused for let's
go learn how to be emotional and and and
feel like an incompetent income boot for
a while like that's really attractive so
I see people all the time get to the end
of something and then kind of go, "Oh,
I'm going to go into the darkness for a
while." Uh, I think I'll go back to the
clarity. So, we just reup. Buddy of mine
age just started his 12th company.
>> I'll call him John. And I'm going, John, really
really
>> this game again?
>> I mean, what do you not know? He said,
"Well, I'm good at it." Kind of go like,
"You knew that four times ago?" I mean,
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wisdom and modern wisdom a checkout. Uh,
another idea that me and George, my
friend, talk about is the anorexic
hermit crab. So,
>> explain to me the anorexic hermit crab.
That's great. So it basically that crabs
need to shed their shell in order to be
able to grow.
>> And what you could imagine,
>> I'm not going to say that John is doing this.
this. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> But you could imagine a world in which a
hermit crab refused to eat in order for
it to not outgrow it shell. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> And that would stay right here.
>> That would be the anorexic hermit crab.
>> Yeah. Okay. No, I think and and
>> because it doesn't want to go through
the middle section. It doesn't want to
go through the middle transition, >> right?
>> right?
>> Wants to go from found
[ __ ] it. I'll just stay in found.
>> Yeah, I'll stay in found. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Well, we just had the conversation
with Chip Connley, you know, Mr. Modern
Elder Academy guy, you know, and he's
pushing the midlife crystallis, not the
midlife crisis. Crisis is doing it badly
as opposed to this transformational
thing, which is I mean, it's a nice
pitch. He's a lovely guy doing really
good work. Um, but no, life is change.
You know, if I really believe that being
a person is being a becoming,
>> then it's going to change. And some of
those changes are are are real seasonal
stage-elike transitions that are that
are pretty interesting. Um and I you
know you have to decide if it's worth it.
it.
>> That's impact. What about the reframe on fulfillment?
fulfillment?
>> Okay. So fulfillment I can be fully
alive which is again back to be fully
alive in the present moment even with
its apparent insufficiency of
particularity and it's just I mean this
is my is actually my first can of new tonic.
tonic. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> I think it's the best one I've ever had.
>> Fantastic. you know, and is it the best,
you know, caffeinated drink on the
surface of the earth? >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Um, so far good.
>> So far. So, am I willing am I willing to
say, you know, not quite or am I willing
to say, I'm really enjoying this
>> and let it be what it is and not not
blame it for what it's not yet.
>> So, that that's what we're fully alive
comes back in. And there are practices
that allow us to do that. And so, most
of what the book is really about is
positing. Look, there's the
transactional world where all this
performance is occurring and there's a
flow world which is happening right now.
Do you have access to the kinds of
behaviors, the kind of awareness, the
kind of attention in this present
moment? What I call the flow world that
will allow you to experience life more
deeply because more aliveness feels more
meaningful. It feels more human. I think
what we're ultimately called to be is
more human. Joseph Campbell said in an
interview years ago on PBS, you know, on
the meaning question, like is it really
meaning or is what we're really after
just the true rapture of being alive?
At the end of the day, you have to
decide is the human person fundamentally
just a production engine. I equal what I
did or a living being and what I equaled
was the life I lived. [clears throat]
[clears throat] >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Your your decision about what it means
to be a person is a pretty big decision. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> Can you put meaning into an evolutionary
lens for me, please? How is meaning
adaptive? What is it ancestrally? Give
me that lens if you can. [sighs and gasps]
[sighs and gasps]
>> Um, I'm winging it because that's not
first and foremost where I go. You know,
I'm I'm a realist. I live in reality. I
notice people think the meaning thing is
pretty important. So, I'm just going to
start there. Why might meaning have been
important? Well, that's actually going
to depend a little bit on your cosmology,
cosmology,
right? I happen to be the the theist on
the team. My partner Bill is the nichi
appreciating existential atheist. So
you're going to get a different answer.
But I think even evolutionarily um if in
fact that which is energizing evolution
at all,
there's some trajectory here. Um
Um
and that collaboration and
and
community and persistence sustain that
then let's keep it interesting
not just keep it veriral
so I can move along and so if I can lean
if there's something in me that wants to
lean more deeply into my own life and le
lean more deeply into our collective life
life
then that's going to keep the community
going the is going to keep the genome going.
going.
>> Yeah. Good. It's a alignment of a bunch
of different pro-social macronutrients. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> That are both internal and sort of
kinbasedy just around you. Dunbar number stuff.
stuff.
>> So, is it your perspective to try and
summarize where we've got to so far? Yeah.
Yeah.
>> The problem that people are trying to
actually solve when they say they want
more meaning Yes.
>> is they want more aliveness. They want
to feel more alive [gasps and sighs]
[gasps and sighs]
>> almost. So I'm suggesting that if we
added more aliveness to the definition
of meaning and then gave tools to
acquire that then their access to
meaning is going to go up >> right
>> right
>> that right now people you know select
your food groups I mean if you got I've
got I've got one food group called
impact and we're suggesting how about
five impact wonder flow coherence and
community so if I've got more food
groups I might get more calories
>> what about fulfillment in that
fulfillment being broken out into some
of those other component parts Right.
>> Right. Okay. And
>> yeah, it's it's ways different aspects
of my humanity are being both
experienced, grown, and expressed.
>> Okay. Contributing elements of meaning. Yep.
Yep.
>> In your conception.
>> Yeah. Which is not comprehensive, by the
way. This is kind of a lowhanging fruit
book. You know, we're we're the
>> zero to one is the way to go.
>> Well, you know, you know, you have a lot
of people on here who are about
maximizing, about high performance,
about getting the most out of
>> We're the set the bar low and clear it
guys. I mean, we're we're trying to
provide doable, accessible tools that
regular people can use on a regular
basis. Life is long. It's an incremental
evolutionary process. Let's all get
there. Um, so when Bill and I looked at
what people were struggling and what we
might have to say through the lens of
design thinking, that's the platform we
sort of are allowed to speak from. Um,
we said, well, we're not going to
completely boil the ocean of the meaning
question here. We're not. However, what
might be helpful? And so these reframes
we think might be helpful that we just
discussed a couple of mindsets are
helpful. We got a chapter on that. And
then these four areas um wonder, flow,
coherency, and formative community. We
are that's not the totality of meaning
by any means. Meaning is a big topic,
but we think those four are readily
available to almost everybody and
they're accessible pretty quickly. So
here's a design tool or a practice or an
idea suggestion where you might go get
some of that stuff and if that works for
a lot of people that's a good thing.
>> Good starting point. Is there anything
else to say about reframe before we get
into the engines and the component parts?
parts?
>> Yeah. Just the point of reframe
you know um it has been said I would
agree that you know life is largely a
story our experience of life is largely
a story we tell ourselves
and we know neurohysiologically now that
we don't see what we're looking at we
see what we're looking for.
So our lens and how we anticipate what
the world's going to be really matters.
So the point of reframing like no I'm
not trying to be fulfilled. I'm trying
to be fully alive. That's a reframe. You
know when we reframe things it really
changes everything.
>> Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
mind.
>> How much of this is top down versus
bottom up? Because can we dictate to
ourselves you will do this thing? Uh the
community piece is going to be exciting
obviously gets to feed into it. The flow
piece is kind of halfway between the two
>> but much of this
>> is thinking problem. Uh someone might
interpret it as I need to think my way
out of this thinking problem. >> Um
>> Um
well we're you know I teach at Stanford.
We wrote a book that's pretty explicit
articulate stuff. So it's kind of in the
idea realm and yeah pretty heady. You
know, I I've got closed captioning on
all the time. I really like knowing
things and describing I I'd almost
rather describe something than do it.
You know, that's that's a bit of a
temptation for me. Um but um so I think
the re the rethinking
this is where our consciousness, you
know, directs our agency, you know, can
can be the thing that gives us some
power over our lives. So it may start
with thinking differently. Um, however,
we're going to go into, you know,
hopefully embodied experiences in a
pretty quick way. I mean, we want to get
people the chance to grow their actual
faculties of attending to and noticing
and having these other experiences which
are embodied. I mean, flow is a flow is
a not a thought-based experience. Um, so
we want to move toward embodiment. Um,
and I think over time as you get better
at these kind of things, sometimes the
starting place will be those experiences
where you actually are noticing
something in the experience of the
moment or coming out of your body rather
than coming out of your brain or coming
out of your ideas.
>> What's the difference between that
problemolving world and the meaning
making world?
>> Okay, well there's still meaning in the
problem solving world which just it's
just a narrow a narrow form of it. So we
came up [clears throat] with this model
of the transactional world and the flow
world and that there's a bunch of
meaning to be had in the flow world
simply because
look there's only one real world there
are two worlds but your brain can't
handle the whole thing at one time and
we now know neurologically you know Lisa
Miller's work at Colombia there's your
achieving brain and there's your
awakened brain you the much more
sophisticated version of the left brain
right brain model you know as Jill Bolt
Taylor's here your stroke of insight
what happened when this neurologist
actually lost her left brain for a
while. So, what's going on is we're
trying to integrate these things and
give people access to it. And so, if I
if I can move more into a a fuller
implementation of my entire
consciousness, then my chance at living
a richer life goes up. And so the
[clears throat] the flow world simply
means I want to start making sure that
the part of my consciousness that can
experience other aspects of reality is
getting airtime because when that part
of my awareness gets more airtime, there
are experiences available to me right in
front of me for free that currently are
going wasted. So we're saying it's not
about more is to get we are trying to
invite people to get more out of the
life they're in. not cram more into it
to change it.
>> Now, we wrote two books about how to
make big changes. We're in favor of
changing things and making them better.
But along the way, don't forget to live
the life you're in.
>> So, with that perspective, does optim
optimization or overoptimization drain
life of meaning in some ways?
>> I think it can. I think if we if we're
always simply trying to get to the
most people's degree of happiness is
described by the delta, the gap between
the way things are and what they had in mind.
mind.
When that gap is small, it's working.
When that gap is broad, it's not. So
that means I've just decided the quality
of my life is based on an imaginal idea
that I have.
>> You can either bring your expectations
down or increase your performance.
>> Yeah. I mean people land, you know,
um there's two phrases. Good enough is
and good enough isn't.
Most people have a bias. They tend to be
one of those kinds of persons.
>> The truth is they're both true. Just
pick carefully when you apply them. So,
I'm all about high performance, you
know, get better, learn how to do
things, listen to Hubberman, listen to
Chris Williamson, you um but if I fall
all the way into that thing, then my
awaren my experience in my own life is
always simply trying to narrow the gap.
>> And then as soon as I get it close, it's
time to up my game and push that
asmmptote further out again so that I
have more gap and push myself forward. I
mean, you can never ultimately maximize
your productivity.
>> There's a beautiful line from Alan
Watts. He says, "If we are altogether
unduly absorbed with improving our
lives, we may forget to live them."
>> You missed the whole thing.
>> Yeah. Yeah. This provisional life. Uh >> yeah.
>> yeah.
>> The um arrival fallacy.
>> Yeah. There there is no done, there is
no right, and there is no it. Have I
found it? There's no it. I think about
the the most modern example of this that
keeps me this is my momento mori but for
the okay Tik Tok generation. Yeah. Um
one day you'll die in your inbox will
still accumulate emails
>> like that will never be done. There will
be people emailing you
>> asking why you're not replying or
secretly saying to a friend
>> that you were really rude because you
hadn't replied
>> who don't know that you're dead.
>> You're and the emails will continue to
come. So, I have a small group of guys
that have been in my support group for
51 years. I formed them in 1974. You
know, I'm the eldest. I'm about turned
73. Um, but we're all within a year or
two of each other. And so, we started
moving into our 70s. And at the 50th
anniversary about 18 months ago, you
know, we started a conversation been
going on for about two years now, but
how are we going to become elders? I
mean, literally, I tell people because
it's true, my next major milestone is
death. How do I get there? >> [laughter]
>> Now, part of that is, you know, I I, you
know, I've had a lot of people. My
father died of suicide when I was nine. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> So, dealing with dead people has became
important early on. I lost my beloved
wife, Claudia, to cancer five years ago.
Um, though, oddly enough, another
compassment woman has decided to sign up
for the program. So, I'm about to get
married again. >> Congratulations.
>> Congratulations.
>> Thank you. Yes. But it, you know, it's a
very steep learning curve. You know, um
John Odonu, the old Celtic mystic would
say that marrying another person is
moving to a foreign country. Whole new
culture, whole new language. Or my
friend, um Jerry's sister would say
philosophy prof there are no second
marriages. There only first marriages
the second time around. So I'm doing a
first marriage the third time around.
And the learning curve is steep, which
by the way is terrific. [snorts]
Um but this death thing once you get it,
but it's going around. It's becoming
extremely popular, you know. Um it was
popular earlier and now it's popular
later but still very popular almost
everybody can do it and once you really
get your hands around your finitude and
burying a couple of people will help you
do that
>> um get you more intimate um with it. So,
um, it's very freeing. Um,
Um,
what have I got, you know, 12 years, 15
years? Um, and it's very clear to me
that my productivity
is going to plummet after my death. I
mean, it's just going to fall. It's just
going to drop off like a stone. And so,
this trajectory on the way to the grave,
I mean, like, you know, how hard how
hard am I, you know, you know, is is the
is the area under the curve of the last
six months of my life really going to
net matter?
which doesn't mean mailing it in is
okay. What it means is look, you're a
Now, get something done. You know, I'm
an old boy scout. Let's leave the
campground better than we found it. But
is that the only thing we're doing?
>> What's the gift you have to give? Chris,
your job. I'll christing that's your
job. Now it expresses itself in
establishing better you know self-help
growth awareness particularly in young
men in this current era. That's a nice
contribution but at the end of the day
your job is to be Chris.
I think each of us is a gift that God or
the universe depending on your cosmology
has given to the world and your job is
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wisdom. You know, my favorite example of
this, Salvador Dolly, don't know. Have
you do you know much about Darali?
>> I like his I like his work and I've I've
been to his home and you Yeah.
>> Okay. So his personal life so his he was
the reincarnation of his dead brother
according to his parents. So Dolli's 20
months old, >> right?
>> right?
>> And his parents take him to a graveyard
and show him a grave site and he had a
brother that was born 20 months before
him and Dali is named after him.
>> Okay. and his parents say, "This is Salvador.
Salvador.
This is who you are.
>> This is who that was how it started.
That was how Dar's life started."
>> It was interesting from the get-go.
>> Uh 10 10 years old, he's throwing
himself down sets of stairs because he
realizes that pain is interesting and
that people come and he can manipulate
them in this sort of very Machavelian
sort of way. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Uh he walked an anteater through the
streets of Paris. When he was asked why,
he said, "It's because anteers are never
in fashion." He took a pistol, yeah, to
a live talk that he gave in France and
he just fired it intermittently to keep
people's attention. He also gave another
talk where he was in a deep sea diving
suit and suffocated in it and had to be
wrenched out of it mid talk. He refused
to walk through doorways forwards. He
would only ever go sideways or backward
because he said that uh habit destroys
the patterns of creativity. He once sued
a guy for dreaming about him and said
the subconscious belongs to me. He is
buried as you know underneath his own
people walk over his body when observing
his work. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh he used to he was very poor during
his life. He used to sign checks that
couldn't be cashed because he had no
money in his bank account but he would
doodle on the back of them and the check
illustration would be worth more than
the actual check itself. >> He
>> He
>> again so what what's he doing there?
What he's saying is he's noticing
>> the fullness of him. He's noticing that
people fall into patterns and and act as
though those patterns are what life is
as opposed to they're a container that's
supposed to hold them. So he's going to
transcend the pattern and force you to
realize, oh, doors aren't for walking
through a for. So he ends up with a
policy that he can't abide by the
pattern, you know. So his his moral
commitment is to constantly press that
edge lest I'm less than it could be,
>> which is which is a really sort of
monastic commitment. Well, the fullness
thing on that is as brilliant as he was,
Da Vinci didn't do Dari and Michelangelo
didn't do Dolly, right? So, if he had
been anything short of the fullness of
himself, the world would be
fundamentally less. So, I agree. I think
that we have this sort of cosmic karmic
>> duty. Yeah.
>> To existence
>> to do what only we can do because you
can't do Dari and neither can I and
neither can Michelangelo and neither
could Da Vinci, right? So it's his job
to walk the anter and to go through the
doorway sideways. Yeah.
>> Uh so okay okay okay component parts
wonder. What do we need to know about wonder?
wonder?
>> Okay so wonder [clears throat] and we
have a little equation for that. So when
you take curiosity
curiosity is a very good thing. It's a
mindset we're in favor of you know and
you upgrade it by [clears throat]
applying you direct curiosity toward mystery.
mystery.
Those things that are beyond our
understanding or since transcended at
the moment of time. Curiosity plus
mystery. So I'm now going to lean with a
high availability into a mystery allows
wonder to occur and one the reason
wonder is important. So wonder, awe,
even positive overwhelm. So Dr. Kelner,
a prophet UC Berkeley, has written the
book on awe and then eight different
forms of human experience that allow awe
or wonder to occur. So he's quadrupled
down on this thing and that it works
across all cultures and all different
spiritual traditions. Um, it's a
fundamentally human experience that
people report as making themselves feel
more alive and making themselves
themselves feel more like themselves and
making themselves feel more like a part
of this great wonderful thing. So very
often in an intense experience of wonder
whether it's a communal thing at a
concert, whether it's a sunset, whether
it's noticing the sleeping baby at 3:00
in the morning, you know, suddenly like,
oh, and we are all and it's all one
fabric and we're all in this thing
together and the universality of it all
suddenly breaks through. So wonder
enables that to occur. It's profoundly
humanm experience, you know. So, and we
think that's available all the time. You
know, you gave a quote just a minute
ago. Um, I love this particular quote
from Henry Miller. So, the American
author and playwright Henry Miller once
said, quote, I have a theory that the
moment one gives close attention to
anything, even a blade of grass, it
becomes a mysterious, awesome,
indescribably magnificent world in
itself. I have tried this experiment a
thousand times and I have never been disappointed.
disappointed.
So you know that's the that's the habit
of wonder. So so wonder [clears throat]
is the place where we can move beyond
ourselves which by the way goes back to
Maslo. So late in his life Maslo most
people still think that the apex of the
hierarchy of needs according to Maslo is self-actualization.
self-actualization.
It's not. The highest level is actually self-trcendency
self-trcendency
which he came up with very late in his
life. He never published it. It's in his
personal journal notes. Others published
it behind them. But interestingly
enough, still, you know, eight out of 10
people think it stops at
self-actualization. And self-trcendency,
if attained,
>> creates meaning. So there's a
difference. And he's still wrong because
he made it hierarchical. And it turns
out self-trcendency isn't hierarchical.
You don't have to be self-actualized
together. Self-trcendency can work for
anyone, anywhere, anytime. Just get
beyond yourself. Whether it's loving
other people, whether it's being
selfless, whether it's compassion,
whether it's noticing beauty and
allowing it to overwhelm you. All those
things get you beyond yourself. And
wonder is a place where you go beyond yourself.
yourself.
>> Or else, if that wasn't true, looking up
at the night sky wouldn't be impressive
unless you'd maximize your potential first.
first. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> Doing something for somebody else that
makes you feel good and makes the world
a better place wouldn't be pro-social.
And yeah,
>> well, you know, you not yet earned the
right to notice. As of yet, you haven't
maximized your 401k. And that means that
you don't get
>> you're not Scott Barry Scott Barry
Kauman did a good a good job on that.
His book transcend was was real nice and
he's he's big into into masalist stuff. Okay.
Okay.
>> Okay. That's wonder.
>> Engineer me some wonder. What what are
some practices for how I can bring more
of it into my life. I'm paying attention
to things in a manner to look at them
with a fresh set of eyes.
>> Yeah. So, we have a little exercise
called put on your wonder glasses. So,
put on your wonder glasses. First of
all, you you know, if you can't beat it,
join it. So, we recognize that we're
transactionally minded. And so, we take
a situation and, you know, might be a
little challenging here. The student,
you know, you you take a moment and you
just take a look around the take a look
around your situation. Take a look
around your room, whether what you're
outside, you're inside, you're walking
the dog, you you take a quick look with
your normal glasses on. And the first
thing you'll notice is what the
transactional brain is going to be
looking for. Like, oh, okay. This is
what they're using a certain kind of
soundproofing and it's the blue lights.
That's kind of interesting, you know,
and I see what's going on, you know, and
probably what'll happen is you'll
immediately come up with a to-do list,
>> like, you know, oh, I got to get one of
those blue lights, you know, that's a
better that's a better micer than I've
got, you know, and I wonder if that
plant deserves to be watered, you know.
So, your brain just comes up with the
to-do list. So, the first thing you scan
around the room, scan around the scene
and let your brain do what it naturally
does, and then you say, "Thank you.
Thank you for sharing. I'll make that
list. I'll get back to you another
time." Then you take another look and
say, "Is there anything here that is
interesting?" Right? that allows me to
be curious,
you know, you know, [clears throat] and
and I'll know, well, he's got a plant there.
there.
He was got a, you know, why is the why
do we need a plant, you know? Um, and
then [clears throat] and and I might
know something something else might be
interesting like, you know, the fact
that we all these different cameras and
why are these angles important and that
might be curious to me, you know, and
then I'll say, okay, now it's time for
wonder glasses. Which of those curious
things do I want to really lean into and
let the mystery reveal itself? And I'm
going to go with a plant. Now, is it
real or plastic, by the way?
>> Plastic. It's plastic. Okay. So, it's a
plastic plant. It's a good plastic
plant. So, I'm noticing that is so Chris
is having these conversations with
people and there is a little organic
something in the room.
>> And so, what that's this is maybe an
homage to maybe it's maybe it's um
evoking the fact that, you know, it's
not just digital, it's not just
electronic, it's not just black. Um
there's some life in here, too. And that
that reminder of life is so how do
reminders of life occur in my so I allow
myself to fall to to in any moment in
time there's a way I can in a minute or two
two
>> reopen my availability to the fact that
there's something like Henry Miller was
saying that's indescribably mysterious
and wonderful right in front of me if I
let it be. If you were to
>> takes practice,
>> if you were to try and turn up the turn
down the difficulty and turn up the
external uh supply of wonder. Yeah.
>> What are some reliable ways to do that?
You mentioned sunsets earlier on. I
imagine that that's one
>> the natural world is going to be your
friend. You know, identify the things
that are naturally working for you. The
other thing is way when is is just allow
yourself to notice the existence of the
flow world. You know, because that's
where wonder is going to be available to
you, which means dropping into the
present moment. So having so we have an
exercise called flip the switch, you
know, so you're sitting, you know, in a
staff meeting, you know, and you listen
to the budget be hacked apart again and
you're bored, you know, and then
literally you say to yourself, flip
boom, flip the switch. What's happening
in the flow world around us? So I'm in
this room. I'm with these people. How is
Chris actually feeling right now? You
know, um what I look out Oh, oh, there's
a tree out the window and that tree is
turning colors. You know, now this all
costs maybe three or four seconds.
>> So, I can get the habit of calling
myself back to the present moment and
just noticing what's going on around me
and the fact that I'm I'm a living
person in this present situation. I mean,
mean,
if I let myself while I'm thinking about
answering your question, I can be aware
of how the cushion feels on my >> buttocks
>> buttocks
>> because I'm actually sitting I'm I'm not
just talking to you. I'm sitting in this chair.
chair.
>> Am I actually in this room? So those
awarenesses allow the mental faculties,
the part of your right brain that knows
how to be attentive to the present
moment, catch those things. So just
constantly have these little games you
can play with yourself, which is keeping
yourself in the game.
>> Okay. Coherence. >> Coherence.
>> Coherence.
It turns out the meaning making
researchers uh will tell us that if you
can align consciously who you are, what
you're doing, and [clears throat] what
you believe in,
>> which we call coherence, So, you know, I
understand who, at least presently, I've
got a story about who I am. These are
things I really care about. Here's what
I'm doing in the world. Do they align?
And when they align, usually with some
degree of compromise because life is
never perfect, but is a calculated
compromise that I've accepted. Um, I'm
having an experience of coherency. I'm
being an an integrated, you know,
coherent, thoughtful, authentic person
in the world, which means I'm living purposefully.
purposefully.
Frankly, if the book takes a risk, it's
that we don't talk an awful lot about
finding purpose and mission and what
have you. In part because people are so
overmissioned right now that they're
stuck in the transactional world.
>> We're really deferring almost all of
that hopefulness to this coherency thing.
thing.
>> If people are aware of their value set
and they're aware of what they're doing
in the world and they're trying to move
those things into alignment called
coherency, you know, then we're pretty
sure they're going to end up doing good
things. Um, so I don't need to preach at
you about trying to make the world a
better place. The overwhelming majority
of people we work with, they've got
great values. And if their values
actually get to be the lead horse on the
directing of their lives, we're all
going to be in a better place. So I
don't need to tell you what to do.
You've already got what you need. So the
experience of coherency, we call it
coherency sightings. Catch yourself in
the act of being an integrated, coherent
person. That's really gratifying. Oh,
I'm I'm sitting here in your studio and
we're talking about how people can live
more meaningfully. That is a really
coherent thing for me to do.
>> Am I aware of the fact that oh yeah,
this is exactly what I want to be doing.
This is really working for me.
>> Inverted. What would somebody being out
of coherence look like? [sighs]
>> Oh, um I was just talking to a guy the
other day. So, I'm um so one of the DCI
fellows, you know, a very successful
Hong Kong finance earier, you know, uh
calls me and says, "My 26-year-old son
is about to quit his fabulous job.
Please help me stop him." You [laughter]
know, so I said, "No, I'm not going to
help stop him." And I'm not going to
call him because you said call him, but
if he wants to call me, we can chat. And
by the way, I'll probably tell him he's
doing the right thing. So, watch what
you wish for. So, I'm on the phone
[clears throat] on a Zoom call talking
to this 26-y old young man um who is a
Stanford grad in economics with a
masters in computer science because
everybody should know digital stuff. Um
and he drops right into investment
banking and he's killing it. He's
absolutely killing it and he's having a
great time killing it until suddenly he
wakes up one day and he's bored to tears
and so I think I'm gonna quit um and you
know ruin my career and and travel for a
while and go try to find myself [snorts]
you know because what he noticed was
right and I think what's happening for
him is his neoortex is forming about 27
he's a little ahead of himself manipul
and just like wait a minute
the motivation I had to do this which
was growing and winning which is fine
you're getting A's. He was getting A's
at the bank like he got at Stanford. Um,
suddenly it doesn't work for me anymore.
He's he he he awakened an incoherent person.
person.
>> And he tried to talk himself into
success as its own reward and he just
couldn't do it. So for him to become
coherent, he's going to have to go
recalibrate his values and reccalibrate
his priorities. So he's in his
transitions. That's the right thing to do.
do.
Now, there are other people who keep
re-uping that incoherence because
they're getting the money or they're
fearful of the change or their wife will
think they're stupid. You know, there's
lots of reasons people get stuck in an
incoherent place, but it's soul sucking,
so be careful.
>> How does coherence outperform balance as
a life goal?
>> Oh, well, I've never had balance as a
goal. Um, I've never seen a balanced person.
person.
I mean, if balance means, you know, um
all of my allocation of time and energy
precisely reflects my value
prioritization set, you know, the the
perfect layering of the layer cake of my
life looks just like my values at all
times. I've never live I've never had
that moment.
>> So, we don't we we don't we talk about
uh you know, not balance as much as just
the dashboard of what is your current
portfolio? What's what's the mix of your
life? So um balance is a resource
allocation question
and some you know um so you have to
decide what your priorities are going to
be. Um one of my examples is one of my
older sisters uh ran a graduate school
of um u in education at a small private
college and she'd been doing a PhD's job
for 15 years and finally decided it was
time to get the PhD and actually be the
person she was supposed to be. So, she's
working full-time running a graduate
school while going full-time to school
and getting a PhD. And she called her
friends and said, "I'm a little over
booked. Um, I've calculated I have six
unscheduled hours in the next five
years. I have very little, true story, I
have very little time to talk to
anybody. You're not making the cut." I
didn't make the cut. Um, and um, and
that was a radically imbalanced
lifestyle. And it was exactly the right
coherent thing for her to do.
>> Highly coherent.
>> Highly coherent. So, balance is lovely.
And if a coherent life and circumstances
permit it, great. Um, but what you
really want to be is alive and and
accepting the compromises that come with it.
it.
>> Flow. What about flow? So flow.
So first of all, we are introducing the
concept of the flow world along with the
flow state. So we all know the flow
state from Mihi Czech semih high the the
positive psychologist who invented the
term flow the psychology of optimal
experience published back in 90
something. Um and that's lovely as an
idea in the zone what have you most
people know what flow is and have had
moments of experiencing it. Uh and so
one of the first things we come up with
is okay so that's the flow state
the experience of being fully engaged in
the moment where time stands still and I
feel fully present all that stuff which
is great. [snorts]
um where does that happen? So first of
all we're saying it happens in this
place called the flow world. So flow
occurs when I'm fully in the present
moment and that's really where the flow
world is existing. So let's go where
flow can be found thing once we posit
the flow world is the place where you
might enter the flow state
and then on the flow state that we
originally defined there's this thing
called the flow channel which is where
the task at hand and my skill set are
close. So my my capacity and what the
the task demands of me are really close.
So I'm neither overskilled and then I
get bored or I'm neither underkilled and
then I get anxious.
>> This sort of approximate zone of
development type stuff.
>> Yeah, I'm I'm I'm right at my skill
level. So the situation is demanding the
most of me. So and what we notice about
then that's fine. We call that apex flow
which is where you know I'm really right
on the ragged edge of my capability. And
the reason I can drop into flow in that
situation is
the circumstance I the task
>> I need to wrangle all of my capacity
>> it takes all of me so literally the way
I put that is I have now delegated
responsibility for my degree of
engagement in life to the quality of the
task I need to find some task that will
so demand of me my attention that I
finally become fully present
>> yep y
>> which means it's the task's job for me
to be present not my job
>> it's the flow equivalent of putting your
meaning and impact
>> bingo so what I really wanted to learn
how to do we called simple flow is I can
choose to be fully attended. I got to
chop these damn onions to make the soup
and then what I really really get on to
is is the dinner when the people come
over at 7:00. So it's 5:30 now I got to
get the soup going. You know multitask
put on a Chris Williamson you know
YouTube while I'm listening do four
things to make the most of it as opposed
to like whoa whoa whoa
let's go all the way in on the onion
chopping. Oh, I thought you meant forget
the onions and just watch the Oh, Chris
Williams. It's like that's fine. That'd
be a higher level flow, but you know, I
gota I got to get the onions done. I'm
so sorry. So, um, so if I can fall all
the way in like look, it's going to be
10 minutes. You know, I'm going to do
this in, you know, a nice zen kind of
way. I'm going to really appreciate the
knife. I'm going to actually feel the
experience of I I can choose
to go allin even if my skill set far
exceeds it. I can just choose to be
fully present to what I'm doing. And
that allows me to have this fully
engaged, calmly detached experience
which is more alive. I can even try
something that's hard for me. And if I
really can accept that I might make a
mistake and that's okay, then the
anxiety can be dropped. Anxiety is still
an elective pain. So I can drop the
anxiety or I can drop the boredom by
having the mental discipline of choosing
my way into the moment. Now suddenly the
flow channel quadruples in size. [gasps]
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wisdom.
Sounds lovely. Uh I think the first
thing it makes me think of is whether or
not multitasking
and the
yeah the I am going to listen to a
podcast at one and a half times speed
while I get my walk in while I check my
notes for the upcoming email I've got to do.
do. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Is that a particularly
uh kryptonite
additive to try and put into achieving
flow? Is that going to contribute to the
degradation of flow across the world?
>> I think so.
>> I in short, I'm not saying never do it.
And we do know the truth is human
neither humans nor computers actually multitask.
multitask.
>> No, they're parallel.
>> We task switch.
>> Yeah. What people think they mean is
parallel processing. What they're
actually doing is
>> test switching.
>> Yeah. Right.
>> So getting good at task switching quickly
quickly
>> is a performance optimization
capability. And in the in the high
productivity world, that's not a bad
skill to have. And I get the feedback
loop of I got more done or I got more
for my time or I got paid higher or my
PowerPoints were cooler than yours,
whatever it is. Um and or I got done
what I needed to get done more quickly
so that I could some time back. Yeah.
>> So, but again,
>> if I only do that
>> again, the flow requires full
participation in the reason time stands
still and becomes eternal. time
elongates, you know, and disappears all
at once because I'm so fully present to
it. Is this full availability and full
concentration? If I'm switching
constantly, I'm never going to have that
full presence. So, I do think multitask,
what we call multitasking and flow are
simply different states. Now, you might
somebody might argue I can flow by how
well I'm multitasking.
>> Yep. Yep. [snorts]
>> I'm not sure that's actual flow. I think
what it is, it's it's gratifying that
I'm being high performant. That's okay.
>> Yeah. But if it's it's the only game
you're playing, then you you've left a
lot behind.
>> Yeah, I think
>> What do you think? I mean, you're a multitasker.
multitasker.
>> That's true. Chronically, um the meta
thinking thing, I'm very rarely in flow
when I'm thinking about the thinking.
You have to when you're juggling a bunch
of different balls at the same time.
>> Now, uh I was trying to think of an
example where this wouldn't be true. I I
used to run nightclubs. is to be stood
in the front door of a nightclub for a
very very long time.
>> And in that it's kind of multi. I'm
usually getting my phone out messaging
the guy. Okay, where are the flyers out?
They're doing that thing. Denu's
starting to build out. So, we actually
need to push that back in. So, you can't
let the queue get too wide cuz then it
becomes unruly. And then is the doors
Oh, the tills out of change. So, I need
to get the person to do the tilt thing.
So, that is a kind of multitasking,
>> but it's still relatively linear. It's
sort of moving in the same direction.
The phone is about the thing. The till
is about the thing. the cues about the
thing. I can hear the music coming from
inside. What's the DJ doing? And that is that is quite a nice dance. It's a very
that is quite a nice dance. It's a very wide. It's sort of very peripheral
wide. It's sort of very peripheral peripheral sort of when it comes to what
peripheral sort of when it comes to what I'm taking in. Um but if I was to think
I'm taking in. Um but if I was to think about kind of the opposite, it would be
about kind of the opposite, it would be preparing for a podcast while I've got
preparing for a podcast while I've got Slack open. Uh and I'm also thinking
Slack open. Uh and I'm also thinking about something else as well. Like that
about something else as well. Like that it's too desperate. Adam Lane Smith, my
it's too desperate. Adam Lane Smith, my my friend the attachment expert, has got
my friend the attachment expert, has got this wonderful idea and he says um your
this wonderful idea and he says um your life doesn't need to be easier. It needs
life doesn't need to be easier. It needs to be simpler. that humans are built to
to be simpler. that humans are built to handle intensity but not complexity and
handle intensity but not complexity and I found that to be completely true that
I found that to be completely true that there is not really an intensity of work
there is not really an intensity of work >> that makes me feel overwhelmed
>> that makes me feel overwhelmed >> not complication correct maybe complex
>> not complication correct maybe complex not that's exactly the terminology he
not that's exactly the terminology he uses well he uses complicated
uses well he uses complicated >> complicated
>> complicated >> yes correct um there is not an intensity
>> yes correct um there is not an intensity of work that has really ever crushed me
of work that has really ever crushed me in terms of its overwhelm but there is a
in terms of its overwhelm but there is a level of complication that has crushed
level of complication that has crushed me at a relatively low dose
me at a relatively low dose >> yeah so you're so you're um front of the
>> yeah so you're so you're um front of the room guy
room guy >> is um technically multitasking but
>> is um technically multitasking but multitasking like all the colors on the
multitasking like all the colors on the palette when I'm painting as opposed to
palette when I'm painting as opposed to like I'm I'm I'm painting and jogging
like I'm I'm I'm painting and jogging and I was just having a conversation
and I was just having a conversation with my friend Steve. So Steve ran
with my friend Steve. So Steve ran [clears throat] the one of the largest
[clears throat] the one of the largest and most successful high-end catering
and most successful high-end catering programs uh catering companies in
programs uh catering companies in Southern California. caters to
Southern California. caters to presidents to, you know, does Beyonce's
presidents to, you know, does Beyonce's birthday party, you know, the thousand
birthday party, you know, the thousand plate guy and he's completely reinvented
plate guy and he's completely reinvented his life and come up to live in the
his life and come up to live in the redwood forest in Bonnie Dune up near
redwood forest in Bonnie Dune up near Santa Cruz where I am. Um, and we're
Santa Cruz where I am. Um, and we're talking about this stuff
talking about this stuff >> and at one point he drops he says,
>> and at one point he drops he says, "Look, you got to understand I'm a
"Look, you got to understand I'm a really good waiter. I'm an incredibly
really good waiter. I'm an incredibly good waiter as a host." He says, "I can
good waiter as a host." He says, "I can stand in that room
stand in that room >> and instantly I I'm looking at my seven
>> and instantly I I'm looking at my seven tables and I know they need water.
tables and I know they need water. They're having a conversation that's
They're having a conversation that's going south. I could put some soothe on
going south. I could put some soothe on there. You know, that guy's hungry. He's
there. You know, that guy's hungry. He's I mean, literally, he just knows
I mean, literally, he just knows everything that has to be done across
everything that has to be done across the room and then he can move
the room and then he can move effortlessly. He's hardly even aware of
effortlessly. He's hardly even aware of how his body is routing to the right
how his body is routing to the right table and do the right thing because
table and do the right thing because he's is he's a different person at each
he's is he's a different person at each one of those seven tables.
one of those seven tables. >> So, that's a multitasking on like your
>> So, that's a multitasking on like your front of the room. Um, but it's all in
front of the room. Um, but it's all in this cohesive context where what's
this cohesive context where what's really happening is you're actually
really happening is you're actually becoming pretty selfless.
becoming pretty selfless. >> It's a very high level of a um of a
>> It's a very high level of a um of a multiaceted competency, but it's still
multiaceted competency, but it's still one cohesive thing that allows flow to
one cohesive thing that allows flow to occur. So when he's doing that, and I
occur. So when he's doing that, and I think when you're doing that, that is
think when you're doing that, that is flow.
flow. >> Yeah. High complexity, high intensity,
>> Yeah. High complexity, high intensity, low complication.
low complication. >> Low complication. Therefore, high
>> Low complication. Therefore, high cohesion, one fabric.
cohesion, one fabric. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's lovely.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's lovely. >> That's a nice conception. Okay. What
>> That's a nice conception. Okay. What design choices make flow more likely in
design choices make flow more likely in daily life
daily life [sighs and gasps]
[sighs and gasps] >> pay attention.
>> pay attention. >> I mean just paying attention. So the um
>> I mean just paying attention. So the um we talk about mindset a lot. So the
we talk about mindset a lot. So the design choice of choosing into the way
design choice of choosing into the way I'm going to be in a particular
I'm going to be in a particular situation, you know. So if I'm only if
situation, you know. So if I'm only if I'm in that staff meeting and I'm only
I'm in that staff meeting and I'm only thinking about the next thing, then I've
thinking about the next thing, then I've designed my mindset to never be present
designed my mindset to never be present to the present moment. So So the the
to the present moment. So So the the critical design choice is how do I live
critical design choice is how do I live in this day? How do I live in this
in this day? How do I live in this moment? My my partner Bill has a morning
moment? My my partner Bill has a morning practice. Despite being an atheist, he
practice. Despite being an atheist, he has spiritual practices. Um one of them
has spiritual practices. Um one of them is he says two things to himself out
is he says two things to himself out loud every single day uh while shaving.
loud every single day uh while shaving. And he says it's very important that
And he says it's very important that they're out loud. Mhm.
they're out loud. Mhm. >> I don't shave every day, so I can't do
>> I don't shave every day, so I can't do it.
it. >> It's a good justification to shave every
>> It's a good justification to shave every day.
day. >> There you go. Um, one is I live in the
>> There you go. Um, one is I live in the best of all possible worlds.
best of all possible worlds. >> Now, as an as an existential atheist, he
>> Now, as an as an existential atheist, he says, "Look, I I can also say I live in
says, "Look, I I can also say I live in the world. I live in the worst world. I
the world. I live in the worst world. I live in the only world I notice." But
live in the only world I notice." But actually, it turns out because bias
actually, it turns out because bias matters, I want to bias things in my
matters, I want to bias things in my favor. If I live in the best of all
favor. If I live in the best of all possible worlds, my chance of catching
possible worlds, my chance of catching good things goes way up because I've
good things goes way up because I've pre-biased my attention to positive
pre-biased my attention to positive outcomes.
outcomes. >> Thing one. thing too. Everything I do
>> Thing one. thing too. Everything I do today, I choose to do. So I announce my
today, I choose to do. So I announce my agency to myself like why am I going to
agency to myself like why am I going to this darn meeting? Oh, because I
this darn meeting? Oh, because I scheduled it. You know, why am I going
scheduled it. You know, why am I going to the DMV? Because because I I chose
to the DMV? Because because I I chose not to file on time. And so now I'm
not to file on time. And so now I'm doing this thing. So I just own my life.
doing this thing. So I just own my life. So those
So those >> it's me. It's me. It's me. It's me.
>> it's me. It's me. It's me. It's me. >> Yeah. I'm just I own it. I own it. I own
>> Yeah. I'm just I own it. I own it. I own it, you know. So you know, outing the
it, you know. So you know, outing the victim. Um so that's mindset choice. So
victim. Um so that's mindset choice. So the most important I think the most
the most important I think the most important aspect of designing a life
important aspect of designing a life that includes these flow experiences is
that includes these flow experiences is choosing the mindset of the way you live
choosing the mindset of the way you live which is a practice you do every day.
which is a practice you do every day. >> Both me and my housemate have one day
>> Both me and my housemate have one day where we stack all of our calls. Mine's
where we stack all of our calls. Mine's a Wednesday, his is a Thursday.
a Wednesday, his is a Thursday. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> And uh
>> And uh >> we kind of get it done day. Yeah.
>> we kind of get it done day. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. And it you you sort of
>> Yeah. Exactly. And it you you sort of stare at it and you go, "Okay, today is
stare at it and you go, "Okay, today is not going to be deep work, but it's
not going to be deep work, but it's going to be necessary work." And that's
going to be necessary work." And that's fine. And and that is a kind of cohesion
fine. And and that is a kind of cohesion all of its own, right?
all of its own, right? >> Um,
>> Um, >> somebody's got to pick up the doctrine.
>> somebody's got to pick up the doctrine. >> I call mine big wedded.
>> I call mine big wedded. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> He used to call his [ __ ] Thursday.
>> He used to call his [ __ ] Thursday. >> Oh,
>> Oh, >> he realized two weeks ago he's like,
>> he realized two weeks ago he's like, "Why? I I've I've labeled it on my
"Why? I I've I've labeled it on my calendar. It says [ __ ] day. Every
calendar. It says [ __ ] day. Every single week this thing comes around."
single week this thing comes around." And he said,
And he said, >> "Right,
>> "Right, >> stupid."
>> stupid." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Two weeks ago called it Uber Mench day.
>> Two weeks ago called it Uber Mench day. >> Day was immediately turned inside out.
>> Day was immediately turned inside out. This is I'm crushing it. I've got to get
This is I'm crushing it. I've got to get this stuff done. and I don't really want
this stuff done. and I don't really want to and I'm doing it. He's like just one
to and I'm doing it. He's like just one reframe like that and I thought it was
reframe like that and I thought it was so cute. So if if yeah you have a a
so cute. So if if yeah you have a a series of tasks you and your partner
series of tasks you and your partner need to do you for some reason the trash
need to do you for some reason the trash in your apartment block is forever away
in your apartment block is forever away from where you're just what we're going
from where you're just what we're going on a mission. It's it's the trash
on a mission. It's it's the trash mission. We're doing the trash mission
mission. We're doing the trash mission together as opposed to got to take the
together as opposed to got to take the bloody trash out again or whatever it
bloody trash out again or whatever it might be.
might be. >> So I will argue that this is a mindset
>> So I will argue that this is a mindset issue. So you know there are three big
issue. So you know there are three big chunks to our book. there's the front
chunks to our book. there's the front end about hey think about meaning a
end about hey think about meaning a different way here's a couple of
different way here's a couple of reframes that might change the game for
reframes that might change the game for you then oh by the way the way you walk
you then oh by the way the way you walk through the world matters we call that
through the world matters we call that mindset so it's called think like a
mindset so it's called think like a designer the designer's way five
designer the designer's way five mindsets and then these four areas we
mindsets and then these four areas we just discussed and then the mindset
just discussed and then the mindset thing um there are five mindsets but the
thing um there are five mindsets but the two for the twofur killer of the
two for the twofur killer of the mindsets are radical acceptance and
mindsets are radical acceptance and availability so radical acceptance is
availability so radical acceptance is about look I the only place design
about look I the only place design works. In fact, I would argue the only
works. In fact, I would argue the only place anything works is reality. So, you
place anything works is reality. So, you know, must be present to win. So, oh, I
know, must be present to win. So, oh, I should have done this instead. You're
should have done this instead. You're back into your head, not reality. Like,
back into your head, not reality. Like, no, you're here. So, if you start with
no, you're here. So, if you start with radically accepting that things are the
radically accepting that things are the way they are, and your opportunity is to
way they are, and your opportunity is to make the most of the situation that
make the most of the situation that happens to actually be.
happens to actually be. And so, that's okay. I accept it is the
And so, that's okay. I accept it is the way it is. you know, it there was an ice
way it is. you know, it there was an ice storm and maybe I wasn't gonna get to be
storm and maybe I wasn't gonna get to be here today. You know, the power might go
here today. You know, the power might go out again. You know, it's just true.
out again. You know, it's just true. It's not it's not good or bad. It's just
It's not it's not good or bad. It's just true.
true. >> So then availability says, not only am I
>> So then availability says, not only am I willing to accept the way things are,
willing to accept the way things are, but I'm going to lean into like, hm, and
but I'm going to lean into like, hm, and what might be here for me. I wonder what
what might be here for me. I wonder what wonderful wonderfulness is latently
wonderful wonderfulness is latently lurking that I might discover.
lurking that I might discover. >> So to go from [ __ ] Thursday to Uber
>> So to go from [ __ ] Thursday to Uber Mench Thursday. See, [ __ ] Thursday,
Mench Thursday. See, [ __ ] Thursday, I think, deserved to be labeled that
I think, deserved to be labeled that because I really didn't think it
because I really didn't think it deserved to exist. [clears throat]
deserved to exist. [clears throat] >> I am unhappy with the fact that I have
>> I am unhappy with the fact that I have to spend time doing this crap.
to spend time doing this crap. >> So, this crap is like an evil force in
>> So, this crap is like an evil force in my life and it doesn't deserve to be
my life and it doesn't deserve to be there. And that's just not true. I mean,
there. And that's just not true. I mean, the trash has to get taken out, the dog
the trash has to get taken out, the dog poop has to get picked up, you know, the
poop has to get picked up, you know, the baby's butts got to get wiped. I mean,
baby's butts got to get wiped. I mean, you know, the taxes have to be paid.
you know, the taxes have to be paid. It's just true. So if I accept that and
It's just true. So if I accept that and then say, "Oh, and I'm responsible for
then say, "Oh, and I'm responsible for attending to that in as in as efficient
attending to that in as in as efficient a way as I possibly can." Now it's
a way as I possibly can." Now it's actually okay. So
actually okay. So when your roommate accepts Thursdays and
when your roommate accepts Thursdays and then even says, "And I'm going to be
then even says, "And I'm going to be available to noticing that I can do that
available to noticing that I can do that really well." And after I've done that,
really well." And after I've done that, well, pat myself on the back for being
well, pat myself on the back for being an Uber MCH.
an Uber MCH. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I changed my experience of my life. Your
>> I changed my experience of my life. Your mindset really matters.
mindset really matters. >> Give me the other elements of mindset.
>> Give me the other elements of mindset. um [clears throat] we actually double
um [clears throat] we actually double down on one. So having a wondrous
down on one. So having a wondrous mindset, a high availability to wonder
mindset, a high availability to wonder at all times. So wonder, radical
at all times. So wonder, radical acceptance, availability, which I've
acceptance, availability, which I've just described. The next one is fully
just described. The next one is fully engaged, calmly detached.
engaged, calmly detached. And the last one is create your world,
And the last one is create your world, which really means create your story. So
which really means create your story. So fully engaged, calmly detached um is all
fully engaged, calmly detached um is all about again it's a flow it's a flow
about again it's a flow it's a flow orientation that would say you know I
orientation that would say you know I want to be entirely present to what I'm
want to be entirely present to what I'm doing. I want to both bring the best I
doing. I want to both bring the best I can to it and I want to have the most
can to it and I want to have the most alive making experience of what I'm
alive making experience of what I'm doing by being fully engaged.
doing by being fully engaged. However, I'm also going to recognize
However, I'm also going to recognize that while I'm fully engaged, I don't
that while I'm fully engaged, I don't control outcomes. So as soon as I get
control outcomes. So as soon as I get fully engaged, I really care. I really
fully engaged, I really care. I really want it to work. And now suddenly I get
want it to work. And now suddenly I get expectations and I'm getting all wrapped
expectations and I'm getting all wrapped up and I'm getting anxious. So what I
up and I'm getting anxious. So what I want to be, which I think is a very
want to be, which I think is a very aspirational place, I want to be fully
aspirational place, I want to be fully engaged. I want to care really deeply
engaged. I want to care really deeply and bring my best self and recognize
and bring my best self and recognize that I have very little control over
that I have very little control over whether or not the outcome works. And so
whether or not the outcome works. And so I can be both those things at the same
I can be both those things at the same time. Um so which is really freeing by
time. Um so which is really freeing by the way if I can detach from the outcome
the way if I can detach from the outcome while being fully engaged in the
while being fully engaged in the participation. The the big distinction
participation. The the big distinction in the mindset between the
in the mindset between the transactionalist and the flowist, the
transactionalist and the flowist, the flow oriented person um is the
flow oriented person um is the transactionalist is all about outcomes.
transactionalist is all about outcomes. Uh they're primarily the agent of an
Uh they're primarily the agent of an outcome and the and the flow person is a
outcome and the and the flow person is a participant.
participant. Now that participant may be
Now that participant may be participating in a way that hopefully it
participating in a way that hopefully it creates an outcome, but my energy isn't
creates an outcome, but my energy isn't worrying about that future outcome. my
worrying about that future outcome. my energy is in participating fully in this
energy is in participating fully in this moment, which is by the way the single
moment, which is by the way the single best way to improve the probability of
best way to improve the probability of the outcome. So getting really good at
the outcome. So getting really good at this present moment thing has huge side
this present moment thing has huge side effects
effects >> that work both ways. It's you're not
>> that work both ways. It's you're not giving up transaction success by
giving up transaction success by becoming more flow oriented. What you're
becoming more flow oriented. What you're giving up is wasting energy that's not
giving up is wasting energy that's not contributing.
contributing. >> Yeah. I think one of the areas I really
>> Yeah. I think one of the areas I really want to get into is the mistakes that
want to get into is the mistakes that high achievers make when it comes to
high achievers make when it comes to tying meaning to outcomes and the sort
tying meaning to outcomes and the sort of endless rabbit holes of pursuit.
of endless rabbit holes of pursuit. Yeah.
Yeah. >> And progress.
>> And progress. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> What are the big mistakes that you see
>> What are the big mistakes that you see hard charging high achievers making in
hard charging high achievers making in your world?
your world? >> Well, the first one is that we correlate
>> Well, the first one is that we correlate um our decision- making with the
um our decision- making with the outcome. So, you know, okay, try it this
outcome. So, you know, okay, try it this way. Um, you work hard on on something
way. Um, you work hard on on something you really care about and it doesn't
you really care about and it doesn't work out.
work out. Shoot. What's the first question most
Shoot. What's the first question most people ask themselves as soon as
people ask themselves as soon as something doesn't work out?
something doesn't work out? >> What did I do wrong?
>> What did I do wrong? >> Bingo. Which makes and that and by the
>> Bingo. Which makes and that and by the way, questions matter. Particular the
way, questions matter. Particular the questions you empower to judge or direct
questions you empower to judge or direct your life.
your life. Be very careful because all questions
Be very careful because all questions have belief systems. If it turns out the
have belief systems. If it turns out the lifedirecting question you're currently
lifedirecting question you're currently suffering
suffering has a belief system you don't agree
has a belief system you don't agree with, you're in trouble. So if the first
with, you're in trouble. So if the first thing I think after something goes ary
thing I think after something goes ary is what did I do wrong? There are two
is what did I do wrong? There are two assumptions built into that question
assumptions built into that question both of which I think are dead wrong and
both of which I think are dead wrong and are very dangerous. So if the first
are very dangerous. So if the first question after a mistake or a failure is
question after a mistake or a failure is what did I do wrong? What does that
what did I do wrong? What does that question already believe is true?
question already believe is true? >> You could have done something
>> You could have done something differently and you are wrong. Bingo. It
differently and you are wrong. Bingo. It does believe that if I done everything
does believe that if I done everything right, it would have worked.
right, it would have worked. >> And that the thing that didn't get done
>> And that the thing that didn't get done right, which would have caused it to
right, which would have caused it to work, was mine,
work, was mine, >> which are both, frankly, incredibly
>> which are both, frankly, incredibly egotistical things. I mean, it's not
egotistical things. I mean, it's not true if you do it all right that it'll
true if you do it all right that it'll work. And it's not necessarily your
work. And it's not necessarily your mistake. So, a better question than what
mistake. So, a better question than what did I do wrong, which goes right to and
did I do wrong, which goes right to and if I done it right, it would have
if I done it right, it would have worked, which is wrong. It's false.
worked, which is wrong. It's false. What's a better first question? after a
What's a better first question? after a mistake, after a failure,
mistake, after a failure, >> why did this happen?
>> why did this happen? >> Just what happened?
>> Just what happened? >> Let's just start with back to reality.
>> Let's just start with back to reality. >> Radical acceptance. What happened? Now,
>> Radical acceptance. What happened? Now, if it turns out that analysis says, "Oh,
if it turns out that analysis says, "Oh, yeah. In retrospect, I did. I mailed it
yeah. In retrospect, I did. I mailed it in. I didn't do the prep properly. You
in. I didn't do the prep properly. You know, I didn't call ahead. I didn't get
know, I didn't call ahead. I didn't get the information. You know, you know,
the information. You know, you know, spend no time whatsoever talking to
spend no time whatsoever talking to people about what they think about
people about what they think about Christian Williamson. I show up here.
Christian Williamson. I show up here. I'm unprepared and I shaked it.
I'm unprepared and I shaked it. >> Shame on me." Okay. But that's almost
>> Shame on me." Okay. But that's almost never the case when I have debriefed the
never the case when I have debriefed the oh what did I do wrong um with people
oh what did I do wrong um with people over and over again or the it seemed
over and over again or the it seemed like a good idea at the time but
like a good idea at the time but apparently it wasn't. You know it turns
apparently it wasn't. You know it turns out your prior self did the best they
out your prior self did the best they could. You're just not responsible for
could. You're just not responsible for the future. So the back to your
the future. So the back to your originating question what do high
originating question what do high performers do? High performers believe
performers do? High performers believe in
in they can create they can cause outcomes
they can create they can cause outcomes every single time.
every single time. >> Does this not
>> Does this not >> and they get stuck with it. Does is this
>> and they get stuck with it. Does is this not a byproduct of radical
not a byproduct of radical responsibility, high agency?
responsibility, high agency? >> Sure.
>> Sure. >> Right. Because these are very difficult
>> Right. Because these are very difficult to blend together.
to blend together. >> Oh, no. It it's a slippery slope.
>> Oh, no. It it's a slippery slope. >> I want to own the world. I want to
>> I want to own the world. I want to believe that I can make anything happen.
believe that I can make anything happen. I want to believe that I can make things
I want to believe that I can make things happen that I don't even believe that I
happen that I don't even believe that I can make things happen.
can make things happen. >> And when you lean into that with a high
>> And when you lean into that with a high degree of authenticity and agency and
degree of authenticity and agency and commitment, stuff happens. There is no
commitment, stuff happens. There is no question that um
question that um >> the the choice to believe you can has an
>> the the choice to believe you can has an impact
impact >> and this is a pattern that people have
>> and this is a pattern that people have been rewarded for professionally that
been rewarded for professionally that often hurts them personally and if
often hurts them personally and if you're if you're trying to work out okay
you're if you're trying to work out okay >> so I I Dave says I I I I I should be
>> so I I Dave says I I I I I should be more kind of rational
more kind of rational >> about what happened whatever that means
>> about what happened whatever that means whatever rationally looking at me means
whatever rationally looking at me means which is essentially impossible for me
which is essentially impossible for me to do in any case. I'll try my best.
to do in any case. I'll try my best. >> But then that kind of feels a little bit
>> But then that kind of feels a little bit disempowering in some ways because how
disempowering in some ways because how do I not allow the temptation of the
do I not allow the temptation of the victimhood narrative to just sneak in
victimhood narrative to just sneak in here? And this doesn't sound
here? And this doesn't sound particularly embodied because it's the
particularly embodied because it's the most top down of top downs, right?
most top down of top downs, right? Sterile equation. Look,
Sterile equation. Look, >> right?
>> right? Untie this Gordian knot for me. [sighs]
This is a big question. This is a very big question.
big question. >> I Okay.
>> I Okay. I think what we're talking about
I think what we're talking about is taking full responsibility for our
is taking full responsibility for our affinitude
affinitude all along the way.
all along the way. You're finite
You're finite and you're growing. I mean, you're
and you're growing. I mean, you're you're getting better at Chrising than
you're getting better at Chrising than you used to be. Which means, by the way,
you used to be. Which means, by the way, if I'm going to get better, I was worse.
if I'm going to get better, I was worse. People ask me all the time, you know,
People ask me all the time, you know, I'm out backpacking with these four
I'm out backpacking with these four guys. I've been been taking backpacking
guys. I've been been taking backpacking since for 20 years and they were all 15
since for 20 years and they were all 15 with kids and too busy. Um, but I was
with kids and too busy. Um, but I was the old guy that took them out, you
the old guy that took them out, you know, 20 years my junior and we're all
know, 20 years my junior and we're all sitting around naked jumping into an
sitting around naked jumping into an alpine lake at 10,000 ft. And Rich says,
alpine lake at 10,000 ft. And Rich says, "So Dave, you're the old guy.
"So Dave, you're the old guy. You know, do you have any regrets? Is
You know, do you have any regrets? Is there anything you do differently?" I
there anything you do differently?" I said, "Well, those are two radically
said, "Well, those are two radically different questions. I have no regrets."
different questions. I have no regrets." And I was doing everything differently.
And I was doing everything differently. And he goes, "Whoa, reconcile that for
And he goes, "Whoa, reconcile that for me." I said regret means that I choose
me." I said regret means that I choose to not accept my life and my policy is I
to not accept my life and my policy is I don't not accept my life. I accept my
don't not accept my life. I accept my life and of course I would do it
life and of course I would do it differently because I'm supposed to be
differently because I'm supposed to be smarter now. I mean if there's almost
smarter now. I mean if there's almost anything that I would look in my past
anything that I would look in my past back on and not say if I had to do over
back on and not say if I had to do over I would do it differently. That means
I would do it differently. That means I'm just not paying freaking attention.
I'm just not paying freaking attention. >> Yeah. That's like saying I would not
>> Yeah. That's like saying I would not have picked different lottery numbers
have picked different lottery numbers last week knowing what I know now. So
last week knowing what I know now. So back to this this trade-off um and
back to this this trade-off um and because yeah if I if I do further
because yeah if I if I do further optimize this one thing particularly in
optimize this one thing particularly in career and and capability and
career and and capability and performance you know I might get more
performance you know I might get more but at what expense?
but at what expense? So I really do have to decide
So I really do have to decide how to allocate this finite resource,
how to allocate this finite resource, this growingly more capable over time,
this growingly more capable over time, but still always finite resource called
but still always finite resource called myself
myself >> decliningly available, right?
>> decliningly available, right? >> Decliningly available across what
>> Decliningly available across what different aspects of being a human
different aspects of being a human person, you know, and do I believe I'm
person, you know, and do I believe I'm supposed to make myself, you know,
supposed to make myself, you know, unhappy and suffering the whole way
unhappy and suffering the whole way along or some joy on route, okay? you
along or some joy on route, okay? you know, um there's an old line, it's
know, um there's an old line, it's heaven all the way to heaven and hell
heaven all the way to heaven and hell all the way to hell. Which path am I on?
all the way to hell. Which path am I on? Um
Um >> Oh, that's lovely.
>> Oh, that's lovely. >> So, there's a there's a a real wake up
>> So, there's a there's a a real wake up moment that that I hit this. Um so, in
moment that that I hit this. Um so, in my 30s, again, being a dad was terribly
my 30s, again, being a dad was terribly important to me because I didn't have
important to me because I didn't have one. I lost my dad at nine. Turns out to
one. I lost my dad at nine. Turns out to suicide. Um and then I sort of fall into
suicide. Um and then I sort of fall into high-tech. That's a long story. And I
high-tech. That's a long story. And I fall into startups and that's a long
fall into startups and that's a long story. And I didn't ever think I wanted
story. And I didn't ever think I wanted to be doing that. I sort of fell into
to be doing that. I sort of fell into it. And I didn't know I was a
it. And I didn't know I was a workaholic. It turns out that I am. Um,
workaholic. It turns out that I am. Um, and I'm working, you know, 70, 80 hours
and I'm working, you know, 70, 80 hours a week, sleeping three or four hours a
a week, sleeping three or four hours a night. Been doing that for a couple
night. Been doing that for a couple years. And I'm sitting in the in the
years. And I'm sitting in the in the family room with a cup of coffee on a
family room with a cup of coffee on a Saturday morning. And my now 42year-old,
Saturday morning. And my now 42year-old, then three-year-old son, Robbie, is in
then three-year-old son, Robbie, is in the kitchen and asks his mother, "Mom,
the kitchen and asks his mother, "Mom, can we play with dad today or he's just
can we play with dad today or he's just going to fall asleep in the chair
going to fall asleep in the chair again?"
again?" And my heart sank. And I went, "Shit,
And my heart sank. And I went, "Shit, I didn't have a dad cuz he was dead.
I didn't have a dad cuz he was dead. Robbie doesn't have a dad because he's
Robbie doesn't have a dad because he's asleep.
asleep. This is not okay. This is not okay. So,
This is not okay. This is not okay. So, I'm optimizing for the wrong thing. I'm
I'm optimizing for the wrong thing. I'm I'm killing it at work, but it's killing
I'm killing it at work, but it's killing me, you know. And then it took me six
me, you know. And then it took me six years to fix that, by the way. Um, and I
years to fix that, by the way. Um, and I finally did
finally did >> learn how to decelerate.
>> learn how to decelerate. >> Yeah. I mean, and it ended up I I I had
>> Yeah. I mean, and it ended up I I I had to do more radical change than I
to do more radical change than I realized at the time. I was trying to
realized at the time. I was trying to make minor changes and keep it all going
make minor changes and keep it all going just fine at no cost to anyone. And that
just fine at no cost to anyone. And that just flat failed. Um, but the point
just flat failed. Um, but the point being,
being, you have to decide what you're going to
you have to decide what you're going to do with the allocation of the resource
do with the allocation of the resource called you all along the way. And there
called you all along the way. And there are going to be tradeoffs. There are no
are going to be tradeoffs. There are no solutions. There are no there's you
solutions. There are no there's you could always do everything better.
could always do everything better. There's no best. There's no right.
There's no best. There's no right. There's no done. There's no it. There's
There's no done. There's no it. There's no max.
no max. There's just what you're choosing.
It's your call. >> There's a line from Van Gogh. He says,
>> There's a line from Van Gogh. He says, "If I'm worth anything later, I am worth
"If I'm worth anything later, I am worth something now. For wheat is wheat, even
something now. For wheat is wheat, even if people think it is grass in the
if people think it is grass in the beginning." I think that's so lovely. So
beginning." I think that's so lovely. So lovely.
lovely. >> Yeah. I mean, um, Bill likes to, my
>> Yeah. I mean, um, Bill likes to, my partner likes to quote, um, you know,
partner likes to quote, um, you know, aentism that if you can't find
aentism that if you can't find enlightenment here, where are you going
enlightenment here, where are you going to find it?
to find it? >> Yeah. If you can't be happy with a
>> Yeah. If you can't be happy with a coffee, you won't be happy on a yacht.
coffee, you won't be happy on a yacht. So, okay. Yeah. Uh, in other news, this
So, okay. Yeah. Uh, in other news, this episode is brought to you by RP
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wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. >> Another
>> Another wing, another sure malignant tumor to
wing, another sure malignant tumor to this same [laughter] this same thread
this same [laughter] this same thread that we're on.
that we're on. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> Lots of people become objectively
>> Lots of people become objectively successful and subjectively miserable.
successful and subjectively miserable. They have objectively done the thing.
They have objectively done the thing. They have achieved success.
They have achieved success. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Subjectively, it's not there. It doesn't
>> Subjectively, it's not there. It doesn't feel like they're there.
feel like they're there. >> They know that they've done it, but it
>> They know that they've done it, but it doesn't feel like they've touched it.
doesn't feel like they've touched it. >> Right. What do you lay that at the feet
>> Right. What do you lay that at the feet of?
I wonder if they lost their why on their way.
way. You know, Simon Synynic. Um
because if you got there and you look and it's not just that it's
and you look and it's not just that it's temporary and now what, but you look
temporary and now what, but you look back and it feels like dust in your
back and it feels like dust in your mouth.
mouth. then
were you winning for winning's sake? Um,
and that's not very gratifying. So somewhere along the way, why I care
somewhere along the way, why I care about this, the substance of it, the the
about this, the substance of it, the the the relationship of it, the culture
the relationship of it, the culture creation of it, the whatever, you know,
creation of it, the whatever, you know, if I lost that, then when I get there,
if I lost that, then when I get there, I I literally won't even know what the
I I literally won't even know what the heck I'm doing here.
heck I'm doing here. >> It's a very disorienting experience.
>> It's a very disorienting experience. >> You talk about postachchievement
>> You talk about postachchievement depression being really common among
depression being really common among elites, right?
elites, right? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I think sometimes we are we have so
I think sometimes we are we have so committed to that achievement
committed to that achievement that we put all of ourselves into that
that we put all of ourselves into that performance
performance and we lose the why
and we lose the why you know um
you know um it's understandable but it's
it's understandable but it's heartbreaking.
heartbreaking. Okay. People love to accomplish and
Okay. People love to accomplish and achieve though. How how do you think
achieve though. How how do you think about striving while not missing your
about striving while not missing your life? going after it whilst actually
life? going after it whilst actually being present at the same time because
being present at the same time because >> as far as I can see striving and
>> as far as I can see striving and improving requires a degree of delayed
improving requires a degree of delayed gratification.
gratification. >> Sure.
>> Sure. >> It it it it needs future planning which
>> It it it it needs future planning which by design takes you out of the moment.
by design takes you out of the moment. It's very difficult to be thinking about
It's very difficult to be thinking about the big picture goals in flow, paying
the big picture goals in flow, paying attention to the onions that I'm
attention to the onions that I'm chopping right now. has to be a good
chopping right now. has to be a good portion of time spent putting off what I
portion of time spent putting off what I want to do now, planning for the future,
want to do now, planning for the future, thinking about tasks, being
thinking about tasks, being hypervigilant.
hypervigilant. And this is the sort of perennial
And this is the sort of perennial challenge of the the the personal
challenge of the the the personal growth.
growth. >> Sure.
>> Sure. >> That they want to achieve a lot but not
>> That they want to achieve a lot but not miss their life at the same time. And
miss their life at the same time. And sometimes
sometimes >> I think those two things do not they are
>> I think those two things do not they are oil and water. Not always and maybe less
oil and water. Not always and maybe less than we might think they are,
than we might think they are, >> but there are sacrifices that need to be
>> but there are sacrifices that need to be made, right? In order to be able to get
made, right? In order to be able to get that and many of them take you out of
that and many of them take you out of the present moment,
the present moment, >> but they put you back into another one.
>> but they put you back into another one. So, let's say I'm talking about physical
So, let's say I'm talking about physical work at PRs, you know, and and wanting
work at PRs, you know, and and wanting to add five reps at this bench press
to add five reps at this bench press weight or whatever it might be. Um, so
weight or whatever it might be. Um, so the time I'm spending optimizing my
the time I'm spending optimizing my personal training plan with my trainer,
personal training plan with my trainer, right? That's thinking about the future
right? That's thinking about the future and optimizing what the plan is going to
and optimizing what the plan is going to be, that in and of itself is a skill.
be, that in and of itself is a skill. That's an activity. Oh, I'm doing this
That's an activity. Oh, I'm doing this thing called imagining the future and
thing called imagining the future and conceptualizing, you know, while I'm
conceptualizing, you know, while I'm actually doing that. We all have the
actually doing that. We all have the observer, right? There's there's there's
observer, right? There's there's there's Dave sitting here talking to Chris and
Dave sitting here talking to Chris and then there's Dave noticing what's going
then there's Dave noticing what's going on in the room. We all have the obs
on in the room. We all have the obs what's the observer observing? Is the is
what's the observer observing? Is the is the observer observing me in this moment
the observer observing me in this moment or is the observer observing the
or is the observer observing the likelihood of this getting to the
likelihood of this getting to the outcome?
outcome? So while I'm planning, I'm doing
So while I'm planning, I'm doing something. Planning is an activity. Am I
something. Planning is an activity. Am I enjoying the planning?
enjoying the planning? >> While I'm making the sacrificial effort
>> While I'm making the sacrificial effort to say no, I'm going to actually get up
to say no, I'm going to actually get up a half hour earlier, you know, because
a half hour earlier, you know, because I'm going to go to the gym for 20 more
I'm going to go to the gym for 20 more minutes because I'm going to work on
minutes because I'm going to work on these reps.
these reps. When I'm on the bench and I'm now doing
When I'm on the bench and I'm now doing the second of more reps than I've ever
the second of more reps than I've ever done on that particular exercise before,
done on that particular exercise before, am I enjoying the experience of what my
am I enjoying the experience of what my body is showing me that I've not known
body is showing me that I've not known before or am I saying, "God, three more
before or am I saying, "God, three more and then I hit it."
and then I hit it." >> So, it's it's I mean, even
>> So, it's it's I mean, even in any given moment, are you here or are
in any given moment, are you here or are you somewhere else?
you somewhere else? It's a framework. You can give yourself
It's a framework. You can give yourself permission to I've decided to do this
permission to I've decided to do this new routine in the gym. Now go do it for
new routine in the gym. Now go do it for God's sake and be fully present to it.
Is there a risk of people especially the ones who resonate with the insecure
ones who resonate with the insecure overachiever turning everything into a
overachiever turning everything into a po performance including meaning?
po performance including meaning? >> Oh yeah. So there's a lit there's a
>> Oh yeah. So there's a lit there's a little section in the book called beware
little section in the book called beware the practice to performance trap or the
the practice to performance trap or the practice to production trap. So you know
practice to production trap. So you know you know everybody thinks mindfulness is
you know everybody thinks mindfulness is great as do I you know I go talk to
great as do I you know I go talk to monks all the time. Um and your your
monks all the time. Um and your your achieving brain
achieving brain can transactionalize
can transactionalize anything.
anything. >> Yep. That's why you have streaks on
>> Yep. That's why you have streaks on meditation apps.
meditation apps. >> I mean so you know so like you know this
>> I mean so you know so like you know this morning hey I really killed it this
morning hey I really killed it this morning. You know, I think, in fact, I
morning. You know, I think, in fact, I think I think I'm getting my 20 minute
think I think I'm getting my 20 minute sit I'm down to I can get my 20 minute
sit I'm down to I can get my 20 minute sit done in 50. Um,
sit done in 50. Um, that part of your brain, which by the
that part of your brain, which by the way is pretty stimulated these days, is
way is pretty stimulated these days, is ready to go. It loves being in charge.
ready to go. It loves being in charge. Like, hey, just just give me the wheel.
Like, hey, just just give me the wheel. Give me the wheel. Give me the wheel.
Give me the wheel. Give me the wheel. [laughter] You know, so you you
[laughter] You know, so you you >> pick me, pick me,
>> pick me, pick me, >> pick me. Yeah. That hand is always up.
>> pick me. Yeah. That hand is always up. I'll I'll redescribe this in a
I'll I'll redescribe this in a meaningful way. Um and um uh and that's
meaningful way. Um and um uh and that's not entirely wrong, but this is where if
not entirely wrong, but this is where if you start developing your and by the
you start developing your and by the way, the invitation at the end of book
way, the invitation at the end of book is now we've given you a bunch of ideas.
is now we've given you a bunch of ideas. >> It's not do them all. That's a new
>> It's not do them all. That's a new burden. That's crammore in. Start
burden. That's crammore in. Start figuring out what your practice is for
figuring out what your practice is for your way, your Chris way that allows you
your way, your Chris way that allows you to access more meaning in these other
to access more meaning in these other forms. So you have a slowly but surely
forms. So you have a slowly but surely richer life. And so once you make those
richer life. And so once you make those decisions,
decisions, you start giving yourself permission,
you start giving yourself permission, you know, to to actually permission to
you know, to to actually permission to be happy is what it boils down to at the
be happy is what it boils down to at the end of the day.
end of the day. >> We didn't talk about communities.
>> We didn't talk about communities. >> So community big deal, you know, in
>> So community big deal, you know, in fact, um
fact, um Bob and I, Bill and I just got to spend
Bob and I, Bill and I just got to spend a morning with Bob Waldinger, the you
a morning with Bob Waldinger, the you know,
know, >> he's great from the Harvard study. Yeah,
>> he's great from the Harvard study. Yeah, he's been on the show. He's great
he's been on the show. He's great >> and a Zen man, a lovely guy. So the home
>> and a Zen man, a lovely guy. So the home run all sat around agreeing with each
run all sat around agreeing with each other a lot. It was really a lot of fun.
other a lot. It was really a lot of fun. um you know and that study makes it very
um you know and that study makes it very clear community is everything um the
clear community is everything um the reason there's a thing called formative
reason there's a thing called formative community it's a technical term that we
community it's a technical term that we invented is in the book um is that um
invented is in the book um is that um through this DCI program this
through this DCI program this distinguished career institute program
distinguished career institute program that I teach in at Stanford I'm on my
that I teach in at Stanford I'm on my 10th cohort um these really thoughtful
10th cohort um these really thoughtful people you know 35 to 45 of them a year
people you know 35 to 45 of them a year get thrown together in a room and then
get thrown together in a room and then in no time at all say not only is the
in no time at all say not only is the community the best part of the program
community the best part of the program but I'm having relationships with these
but I'm having relationships with these people like I've never had before in my
people like I've never had before in my life
life >> and I debrief with them collectively and
>> and I debrief with them collectively and I kind of and I'll go justify your
I kind of and I'll go justify your answer. I I don't I'm not buying it. I
answer. I I don't I'm not buying it. I mean these these people have formed
mean these these people have formed corporate cultures and have huge
corporate cultures and have huge professional networks. Most of them are
professional networks. Most of them are married with happy families and how many
married with happy families and how many of you while you're here you're getting
of you while you're here you're getting calls constantly from these huge
calls constantly from these huge networks of relationships like oh we
networks of relationships like oh we miss you please come home because
miss you please come home because they're gone for a whole year at
they're gone for a whole year at Stanford. Uh and they go oh yeah it's
Stanford. Uh and they go oh yeah it's it's a den. And I kind of go, "And
it's a den. And I kind of go, "And you're telling me that some admissions
you're telling me that some admissions officer on this program throws you in a
officer on this program throws you in a room with 35 Yahoos you never met before
room with 35 Yahoos you never met before and suddenly they're the best friends
and suddenly they're the best friends you ever had?" Uh-huh. Justify your
you ever had?" Uh-huh. Justify your answer. And what and what that
answer. And what and what that conversation has revealed is what I
conversation has revealed is what I ended up naming as formative community,
ended up naming as formative community, which is there are three reasons to
which is there are three reasons to gather. One is a social gathering. A
gather. One is a social gathering. A social community get together to have a
social community get together to have a good time, which is lovely. Have, you
good time, which is lovely. Have, you know, enjoy being people together. a
know, enjoy being people together. a collaborative community. Let's get
collaborative community. Let's get together and get something done. And
together and get something done. And getting something done together with
getting something done together with another person, you know, is is is
another person, you know, is is is really wonderful. I mean, go to a
really wonderful. I mean, go to a startup, go have military experience.
startup, go have military experience. That's a profound experience of being a
That's a profound experience of being a human being. But there's another kind of
human being. But there's another kind of gathering which is we call formative.
gathering which is we call formative. Not just get together to have a good
Not just get together to have a good time, get together to get something
time, get together to get something done, get together to become better
done, get together to become better together. So if a person is a becoming,
together. So if a person is a becoming, is there a place in a conversation I can
is there a place in a conversation I can enter into where what we're doing here
enter into where what we're doing here together is we are assisting one another
together is we are assisting one another in our becoming, which isn't getting a
in our becoming, which isn't getting a transaction done, isn't solving a
transaction done, isn't solving a problem. It's allowing one another into
problem. It's allowing one another into the conversation that's growing into the
the conversation that's growing into the next person I want to become. So that is
next person I want to become. So that is a gathering of intent, not content. Most
a gathering of intent, not content. Most of the time we get together socially
of the time we get together socially around the content of we all like
around the content of we all like theater, we all like jazz, you know, so
theater, we all like jazz, you know, so there's this commonality of of the
there's this commonality of of the content of what we're doing. We're
content of what we're doing. We're getting together to go, you know, work
getting together to go, you know, work on this food problem or start this
on this food problem or start this company or whatever it might be. So
company or whatever it might be. So there's the content of our our
there's the content of our our collaboration in a formative community
collaboration in a formative community like, well, you're into climate change
like, well, you're into climate change and I'm into Beanie Babies and and she's
and I'm into Beanie Babies and and she's into modern art. Oh, you can't help me
into modern art. Oh, you can't help me because you don't my know my thing. No,
because you don't my know my thing. No, no, no. I don't need you to know my
no, no. I don't need you to know my thing. What I need is for you to be the
thing. What I need is for you to be the person who's becoming them, their better
person who's becoming them, their better selves. I want you to get more in
selves. I want you to get more in alignment with who you're on the way to
alignment with who you're on the way to becoming. And when that occurs, your
becoming. And when that occurs, your psyche, your soul, your consciousness
psyche, your soul, your consciousness resonates in a way that the content of
resonates in a way that the content of what you're doing doesn't matter to me,
what you're doing doesn't matter to me, but the intent does. And when I'm with
but the intent does. And when I'm with other people who are moving toward that
other people who are moving toward that resonance with themselves,
resonance with themselves, >> it's harmonic to my own. So you're
>> it's harmonic to my own. So you're talking about climate change and I'm
talking about climate change and I'm having an idea about oil redistribution.
having an idea about oil redistribution. You know, it turns out you being you
You know, it turns out you being you enables me to be me. So that's what a
enables me to be me. So that's what a formative community does. And there's a
formative community does. And there's a certain kind of conversation they can
certain kind of conversation they can have.
have. And so we'll say it's almost impossible
And so we'll say it's almost impossible to hear yourself by yourself because
to hear yourself by yourself because we're fundamentally social animals. So
we're fundamentally social animals. So if there is a place where I can be heard
if there is a place where I can be heard that I might even tap into hearing my
that I might even tap into hearing my own story well enough that I can grow
own story well enough that I can grow further into it. So, a formative
further into it. So, a formative community is a particularly
community is a particularly meaning-making experience because it
meaning-making experience because it moves me along that becoming pathway
moves me along that becoming pathway more regularly, more reliably, and if
more regularly, more reliably, and if we're lucky, more quickly. I think this
we're lucky, more quickly. I think this is a important push back against the
is a important push back against the soloreneur degenerate sigma lonewolf
soloreneur degenerate sigma lonewolf kind of atmosphere that's going on a lot
kind of atmosphere that's going on a lot at the moment. I understand why. I
at the moment. I understand why. I understand why it's seductive to go monk
understand why it's seductive to go monk mode and recant reliance on anybody and
mode and recant reliance on anybody and everybody around you. Yeah. Uh, as I've
everybody around you. Yeah. Uh, as I've got older, it it's just in increasingly
got older, it it's just in increasingly difficult to tap into that fuel source.
difficult to tap into that fuel source. Maybe I've just spent that particular
Maybe I've just spent that particular thing. I I basically extended working
thing. I I basically extended working from home 10 years before CO and 5 years
from home 10 years before CO and 5 years after electively
after electively >> and where the pandemic came along, I
>> and where the pandemic came along, I brilliant. There's just more of me,
brilliant. There's just more of me, right? you know, put me in coach. And um
right? you know, put me in coach. And um >> it's not a bad thing because again, back
>> it's not a bad thing because again, back to particularly in the first half of
to particularly in the first half of life, those early adult years, what's
life, those early adult years, what's really going on is you're building an
really going on is you're building an ego.
>> The first person who really needs to believe that you're okay is you. So if
believe that you're okay is you. So if my decision to rely entirely on myself
my decision to rely entirely on myself is a a stringent approach to saying I
is a a stringent approach to saying I need to get to a place of selfrust
need to get to a place of selfrust >> and it turns out I can't afford to let
>> and it turns out I can't afford to let that leak off where oh it was really it
that leak off where oh it was really it was really an she really saved my butt.
was really an she really saved my butt. So you know but that should be
So you know but that should be temporary.
temporary. I should get over it and now I'm
I should get over it and now I'm actually free to be part of something
actually free to be part of something bigger than myself.
bigger than myself. >> Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. manopause. Um, I I
>> Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. manopause. Um, I I realized a good example, I did this live
realized a good example, I did this live show. I did the first work in progress
show. I did the first work in progress here in Austin last night and I'm about
here in Austin last night and I'm about to go back on tour around Australia, New
to go back on tour around Australia, New Zealand, and Bali for basically a full
Zealand, and Bali for basically a full month. Um,
month. Um, >> that's going to be rough.
>> that's going to be rough. >> I It's horrible.
>> I It's horrible. >> Somebody's got to do it.
>> Somebody's got to do it. >> Yeah. I mean, I did strategically put
>> Yeah. I mean, I did strategically put the Bali show at the very end. Okay.
the Bali show at the very end. Okay. >> Uh, so there's nothing to do after that.
>> Uh, so there's nothing to do after that. Um, and I could go out there, get a
Um, and I could go out there, get a local photographer at each of the
local photographer at each of the different cities, have one tour manager
different cities, have one tour manager to make sure that everything's set up,
to make sure that everything's set up, and that would be it.
and that would be it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> There's
>> There's maybe six guys flying out with me, two
maybe six guys flying out with me, two from the UK, one or two from America,
from the UK, one or two from America, one is already in Australia. Actually,
one is already in Australia. Actually, another one from the UK, and two
another one from the UK, and two manager. And because what's the point?
manager. And because what's the point? What is the point of going and doing a
