This content is an in-depth discussion with a sleep doctor about the science of sleep, common sleep issues, and practical strategies for improving sleep quality and overall health. It emphasizes the importance of understanding individual chronotypes and making lifestyle adjustments to optimize sleep and well-being.
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What are the most popular questions
people come to you with as a sleep doctor?
doctor?
>> There's three biggies. Number one is,
"What do I do if I fall asleep, okay,
and I wake up in the middle of the night
and I can't fall back asleep?"
>> And you can help people with that.
>> Absolutely. The second question is,
"What pillow should I buy?" And I'm
going to walk you through which pillows
make sense for which people. And then
another one that people ask me all the
time is, "What's the best time to have sex?"
sex?"
>> That's a strange thing for somebody of
your profession to be
>> about. Well, let me explain why. So,
I've been an actively practicing sleep
specialist for 26 years. I take care of
people's sleep problems like apnea,
insomnia, and I'm really interested in
the things that you might be doing right
now that are messing up your sleep that
are easy to fix. So, for example, most
people don't know that they have a
genetic sleep code inside them called
their chronoype, which decides when your
brain releases things like melatonin,
cortisol, adrenaline, and dopamine. And
so I can show you based on your
chronotype when it's bedtime, but also
the perfect time of day to do almost any
activity, including the perfect time to
have coffee and alcohol. Crazy. There's
even data to show that your ability to
understand complicated concepts improves
when you're more in line with your
chronoype. Now, there are three known
chronotypes, but what I'm famous for is
discovering a fourth one, which I think
might be you. So, we're going to talk a
lot about that. We're also going to talk
about dreams because dreams can tell you
things about yourself that you may not
want to know. And then there's how to
fix jet lag, whether you should sleep
with a TV on, the truth about melatonin
supplementation, and my favorite way to
get magnesium.
>> Before we get into all of that, shall we
go and look at the best possible sleep position?
position?
>> Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you.
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>> Dr. Bruce, yes. What is it you do? Why
does it matter so much now? And what
perspective do you take on what you do
that is atypical versus other people I
might have spoken to about this subject?
>> I'm a sleep doctor. Um I take care of
people's sleep problems like apnea,
narcolepsy, insomnia, things like that.
I've dedicated a good portion of my
career not just to understanding how to
treat those disorders which are sleep
disorders, but what I also I call
disordered sleep. I'm really interested
in behavioral habits. What's going on?
what are the things that you might be
doing right now that are kind of messing
up your sleep that are easy to fix um
and be able to maybe change how things
are going forward? You know, I I didn't
start out thinking I was going to become
a sleep doctor if I'm going to be honest
with you. Like that that was not on the
on the path. Um I was actually going in
a completely different direction. And
one of the things I really discovered
was when you change someone's sleep,
dude, you change their life. Like it is
fundamental to who they are. And it's
important for me to be a sleep educator
in a way, shape, and form that's
practical so that people can actually
get something from what I'm talking
about and apply it right then and there.
>> And there's probably a couple of million
people that have clicked onto this
conversation to listen. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Who is this conversation for?
>> I think it's for anybody out there who's
either curious about sleep or wants to
try to improve their sleep or maybe
suspicious that they could have a
problem with their sleep. I think any
one of those three types of people would
find tremendous value here. And what are
we going to be able to do for those
people today specifically?
>> So, I'm going to give people um several
different like plans, if you will, uh
maybe even a five-step plan of things
that they can absolutely learn how to
do. They're also going to learn about a
genetic sleep code that they have inside
them called their chronoype. A lot of
people don't even know that they have a
chronoype or maybe they've heard of the
of the idea, but they haven't ever heard
of the term. We're going to learn a lot
about that. We're also going to talk
about dreams a little bit. Um I'm
excited to have the opportunity to do
that. I've spent the last year and a
half learning more about how to use
dreams in my clinical work as a
psychologist, which is very interesting
stuff. So, I'm excited to share some of
that. So, I think people are going to
learn a whole bunch.
>> And dreams matter.
>> Oh, yeah. They absolutely matter. I'm I
call dreams emotional metabolism, right?
And so, when you're dreaming, what is
you what is the function? What is the
purpose? What are you doing? You're
actually working through your emotional
states that you had during the daytime.
Um this is why we have nightmares,
right? And so in a nightmare, it's a
scary scene and all a sudden it gets so
emotional, you wake up. That is
officially called a nightmare. That
awakening, but you stop processing. And
when you go back to sleep, you go back
to the dream and you get to that scary
point, you wake up again and you get
caught in this loop, right? And so
dreams matter because they can be
incredibly disruptive. Also, they can
tell you things about yourself that you
may not want to know or may not have in
the front of your mind at all times.
Right? Sometimes people have very
interesting dreams like dreams of being
chased or dreams of their teeth falling
out or all these different things and
they can mean a whole host of different
things. But I want to be super clear.
There's no guide book that says, "Hey,
you know, if you're if you're dreaming
of that you're in water, you hate your
mother." Like, it doesn't really work
that way. Dreams mean something to the
dreamer. And so the goal is to
understand the context within that. So
who is the dreamer? What is the dream?
And then how do those two work together?
And what is the experience that you're
drawing from academically but also
professionally? Give me a view of how
many people you've worked with and
the range of things people come to you with.
with.
>> Yeah. So I've been an actively
practicing sleep specialist for 26
years. So I work in offices with medical
doctors cuz I'm not a medical doctor. I
have a PhD and I work with them on their
patients. lot of insomnia patients but
also the apneas, the restless legs, the
narcolepsies of the world because I have
kind of a unique distinction in that I'm
one of 168 people in the world who took
the medical boards without going to
medical school and passed. So I can work
within that framework and really
understand a lot of what's going on. I
don't prescribe medication, but if I'm
honest with you, most people don't need
sleep medication as far as I'm
concerned. I can get them to sleep
usually without any medication at all.
>> And you're a psychologist as well?
>> I am. I'm a clinical psychologist. And
how does those two worlds make 1 plus 1
equal three?
>> Sure. So when you talk about sleep,
psychology is all over the place. I
would argue 75% of the reason people
don't sleep is anxiety or fear. That
really falls well within the range of
psychology for sure. Um, and it's
different kinds of fears. It's fears
that you know about that are right in
your face, like something that's going
on in your daytime, but it could be
other fears. It could be fears of your
relationship. It could be financial
fears. It could be a whole host of
different things. So, I think there's a
lot of psychology that gets to be played
in all of this kind of thing.
>> I got two more questions before we
really get into the details and
specifics and start really helping the
audience with whatever they're dealing with.
with.
>> The first is we have lots of props here. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Give me a a topline view of the types of
things you're going to show me and why
you've brought all of these wonderful props.
props.
>> Absolutely. So, I get asked a lot of
questions as you might imagine and um
one of the big questions that I get
asked is what bed and pillow should I
buy? So, sitting next to you is a large
stack of pillows, all different types,
actually. And I want to be able to show
some of your viewers how you look at
pillows and which pillows make sense for
which people. Believe it or not, there's
like a fitting process. We're going to
go through that. This device right here
is a sleep test, believe it or not. So,
it used to be we'd have to send you to
the hospital. Yeah, you can unwind it.
Uh, you have to send you to the
hospital. We'd put 27 electrodes all
over your body, respiratory belts across
your chest. We'd have cameras zoomed in
on you. And then, by the way, you're
supposed to be able to go to sleep,
right? And we're supposed to be able to
monitor you. Now, historically, we were
able to do that pretty well. But once
COVID hit, nobody wanted to sleep in the
same bed that somebody else had been
sleeping in the day before. So, now we
have what are called HSTS or home sleep tests.
tests. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. We'll talk about how to use it and
and what it can tell you.
>> My last question before we get into the
details is what are the most popular
questions that people come to you with
as a sleep doctor?
>> Yeah. So, I'd say there's probably three
biggies, right? Number one is, "Hey, Dr.
Bruce, I fall asleep just fine, but I
wake up somewhere between 1 and 3:00 in
the morning, and it either takes me 20
minutes or 3 hours to fall back asleep.
What the heck is going on there?"
>> And you can help people with that.
>> Absolutely. I'm going to give everybody
a exactly what I do in clinic. Like, I'm
going to explain to everybody exactly
what I say to my patients and how to go
about getting through that particular
problem because it's it's so flagrant.
Everybody needs to know how to how to
work with that. The second question
would be um what bed should I buy or
what pillow should I buy? I think we're
going to address that over here. Um and
then another one that people ask me all
the time is, you know,
is there some kind of timing? Is there
some like I feel like my body is off.
They say this all the time. They're
like, if I just lived in a different
time zone, I feel like everything would
work out well. So the very basics of sleep.
sleep. >> Uhhuh.
>> Uhhuh.
>> What do I need to know about what sleep
is, the role it solves for us to even
understand the context of the things
we're going to talk about today?
>> Yep. There's only a few things that are
truly important to understand about
sleep. One is how does sleep work in the
brain. It turns out that there's two
separate systems in the brain. One is
called your sleep drive. The other is
called your sleep rhythm. And they both
work uh in an interesting way. They're
both a little bit like hunger, right? So
sleep drive is like hunger because right
I'm hungry. I'm hungry. I'm hungry. I
eat something. that hunger begins to
dissipate. Same holds true with sleep.
The longer you stay awake, the more the
more sleepy that you get. When you look
at it from a biology standpoint, it's
kind of interesting. So, when a cell
eats a piece of glucose, something comes
out the back end. One of those things is
called a denisonin. It works its way
through your system and goes to a very
specific receptor area, as a denisonin
accumulates, you get sleepier and
sleepier and sleepier. Now, why am I
going into so much detail? Turns out
when you look at a denisonin and you
look at caffeine, they're off by one
molecule. So, here's a little tip or
trick early in the pod for everyone. I
call it the nappa latte. So, what you do
is you take a cup of drip black coffee,
just throw in a couple of ice cubes,
right? Merely to cool it down, drink it
as fast as you can, and immediately take
a 25minute nap. The adenosin that's
built up in your brain will burn through
while you're napping. Caffeine, since
it's so close in molecular structure,
can fit into that receptor site. It
blocks any new adenosin. You're good for
four hours, guaranteed. I use it with
every CEO that I work with. So, let's
say you only got three hours of sleep
the other night and you've got a big
presentation to do or an awards ceremony
or something like that. You can do a
nappa latte for about 25 minutes or so
and you will feel much better. That's
sleep drive.
>> Let me just >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> I want to make sure I really understand
this. Can you explain this to me again
as if I'm a 16-year-old? by having a
coffee and then taking a nap would make
me feel energetic because one would
think that having a coffee and taking a
nap are like
>> would be almost impossible, right? So,
number one, the caffeine doesn't kick in
before the end of the nap. So, a lot of
people think when I drink coffee, boom,
it just kind of spins up and all a
sudden I'm able to, you know, I get a
lot of energy from it. That's really not
actually how caffeine works. It has to
go down, has to get absorbed, has to be
digested. And so while all that's going
on, which takes approximately 25 to 30
minutes, you're actually taking a nap to
lower the amount of adenosin that has
built up in your brain. Let's say it's 2
o'clock in the afternoon and you only
slept for 4 hours and you are dragging,
right? All that adenosine that's built
up when you take that 25minute nap,
you'll burn through a lot of it and then
caffeine fits in and blocks any
additional adenosin from coming in. So
that way you're actually adding caffeine
to the situation and boom, your energy
goes straight. Okay. So adenosine is
makes me tired when it's docked in my brain.
brain. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> So I have 4 hours sleep which means
there's lots of adenosine and sleep get
clears the adenosine.
>> Correct. And then caffeine comes in
because it fits so perfectly into that
receptor site
>> and off you go. That's sleep drive.
Sleep rhythm has to do with your
circadian rhythm. Right. And so lots of
lots of information about that. But
basically your circadian rhythm is also
a lot like hunger. Right? You ever
notice you're hungry around breakfast
time, around lunchtime, around dinner
time, right? That's your circadian
rhythm for hunger. For sleep, most
people, at least here in North America,
have a tendency to fall asleep somewhere
between 10:30 and 11:00, 11:30 at night.
So, that's kind of the circadian rhythm
there. So, when your circadian rhythm is
high and your drive is high, you sleep.
But if either one of them is off, that's
when you have a sleep disorder or
disordered sleep.
>> My circadian rhythm is high.
>> When your circadian rhythm is on point,
high is probably not the right word. On
point. So meaning you are abiding by
your circadian rhythm. Now another
question you might say to me is well how
do I know what my circadian rhythm is?
And we're going to talk a lot about
chronotypes cuz that's what your
circadian rhythm is.
>> Okay. So let's do chronotypes then.
You've got some cards in front of you.
>> I do. I kind of like these cards. So
when we talk about chronotypes, a lot of
people may have heard of the idea but
not actually heard the term chronoype
before. So if anybody out there has ever
been called an early bird or a night
owl, those are chronoypes. So, we've got
early birds. These are people who, by
the way, this is genetic. You don't you
don't actually get to choose this.
There's a special area on your genome
called the PER3 area. And when you have
something called a single nucleotide
polymorphism or a snip. If it's flipped
one way, you're an early bird. If it's
flipped another way, you're a night owl.
If it's not flipped, you're in the
middle. Okay? So, so far, I haven't told
anybody anything new. Like, this is this
is all stuff that we've already learned.
The new part is this irregularity that
seems to happen for people during for
their sleep schedule. Specifically, an
irregularity in their melatonin and
cortisol production. So, all of this is
predicated on when does your body make
melatonin. So, if you're an early bird,
your body makes melatonin earlier in the
night starting at around 8:00 in the
evening. Makes you want to go to bed
around 9:30. You have a question.
>> So, melatonin is a hormone
>> it is >> that
>> that
>> you produce inside of your body that
actually helps you sleep. It guides, it
tells your body when it's bedtime, which
is a little bit different than the
adenosine, which makes you feel sleepy.
>> I guess people listening now would be
asking themselves, why does it matter to
know my chronotype? Like, as it relates
to my productivity, the way I live my
life, my relationships, whatever matters
to me, why does it matter?
>> Because I can show you based on your
chronoype the perfect time of day to do
almost any activity. So if you f if you
know when your body is doing certain
things, when it has melatonin or when it
has cortisol or adrenaline or all these
other things, if you know the schedule,
you can actually just change your
activity to when your body is naturally
producing the hormone and then you do
the hormone better. >> Okay,
>> Okay,
>> so let's talk about the easy one, which
is sex, right? So a lot of people want
to know, "Hey, Michael, what's the best
time to have sex?" By the way, I think
that might be the third question that I
get asked most um often other than uh
the insomnia one and the mattress one I
think is what's the best time for sex
might be the the other question that I
get asked more than anything.
>> Must be tricky if you the time you want
to have sex and the time your partner
wants to have sex are off.
>> Well, think about it like this. What if
your partner's an early bird and you're
a night owl?
>> Yeah, I think that's me.
>> Don't worry, we're we're going to be
able to fix you. So, first of all,
there's a couple of different answers to
this question. So, number one is you
want to have a time. So, first of all,
most people are intimate between 10:30
and 11:30 at night. That's just a survey
that we did. So, it makes kind of a lot
of sense. But here's what's interesting
is your hormone profile doesn't look too
good at 11:30 at night for having sex.
In order to have successful sex, you
want to have estrogen, testosterone,
progesterone, adrenaline, and cortisol
all to be high and melatonin to be low.
What do you think your hormone profile
looks like at 10:30 at night?
>> It's literally the opposite, right?
Melatonin is high and all those other
things are low. That's hint number one
as to when would probably be the best
time to have sex. Hint number two, if
you happen to be having sex with
somebody who was born biologically male,
what do most men wake up with in the
morning? An erection. If that's not
mother nature telling you when to use
that thing, I don't know what is. Right?
So, when you start to look at it, and we
actually did the surveys, we discovered
that people actually have greater
connection and greater performance in
their sex when they have sex in the
morning time. Now, do you have to brush
your teeth and throw in a little
mouthwash first? Yes, of course you do.
Like, let's be fair to your partner
here. But you end up learning quite a
bit. Again, your body is telling you
this is actually the perfect time to do
something like this. Did you know
there's like a perfect time to have coffee?
coffee?
>> I didn't.
>> Yeah, there's absolutely a perfect time
based on your chronoype, too. One of the
first things that I ask people all the
time, I'll ask you, um, is the first
liquid that crosses over your lips in
the morning caffeinated?
>> Yes. So, let's talk about why that's
probably not the best idea. So, most
people don't know, sorry, most people
don't know, but uh sleep in and of
itself is a dehydrative event. You lose
almost a full liter of water just from
the humidity in your breath by by
breathing all night long. Caffeine is a
diuretic, which mean it makes you have
to go pee. So, when you're already lost
a liter, now you add a couple of cups of
caffeine, which makes you have to pee,
you're going to turn into a raisin
before this whole thing is through.
Okay? So, we need to get some water
inside of you. And so, one of the big
recommendations that I give all of my
patients is don't have caffeine for the
first 90 minutes you're awake. Now,
you're going to sit here and say, "9
minutes? That's a Michael? That's a long
time not to have any caffeine." Like,
how am I going to do that? Like, I've
got my morning routine. I can smell the
coffee in the morning. It smells so
good. Everything's going. How's how's
this going to work? Let me explain the
biology. In order to exit a state of
unconsciousness, you need two hormones,
and you need a lot of them. You need
adrenaline and cortisol and they both
wake you up. When you have a brain
that's full of adrenaline and cortisol
and you add caffeine to it, it's like
it's like adding weak tea to somebody
who's taking cocaine. Okay? It's not a
very powerful stimulant compared to the
hormones that are in your brain that are
a powerful stimulant. But if you just
wait 90 minutes, cortisol and adrenaline
naturally drop. If you have your
caffeine, then it actually boosts the
cortisol and gives you a bigger bang for
your buck. M
>> so you hydrate before you caffeinate and
about the amount somewhere between 15
and 20 ounces of water if you can get
that down in the first hour and a half
that you're awake.
>> What's that in English terms?
>> Oh, I don't know what that we'll have to
look it up.
>> Is it one cup? Is it two cups?
>> Oh, I would say it's probably 3 to four
cups of water.
>> Okay. Well, that's a lot.
>> Well, don't forget you've lost a lot of
water while you're sleeping and you
might have lost it the previous day
because let's say you worked out or
things like that.
>> So, let's get into these chronotypes then.
then.
>> Yeah. So, let's start off with the lion.
So, lions are my early birds. Um, you
know you've got a lion in your midst
when you get an email at 6:00 a.m.,
right? That's somebody who's been up for
a while and who's got their brain kind
of cooking. Um, lions like to make a
list and go from step one to step two to
step three every single day. They get a
lot of confidence and they get a lot of
pleasure following uh this list. But, if
I'm honest with you, being a lion isn't
all it's cracked up to be because dinner
and a movie is out for a line. They've
been up since like 4:30, 5 o'clock in
the morning, right? They don't want to
go see a concert late at night. They
want to go to bed at like 8:30, nine
o'clock. So, when you're looking at
lions or what I early birds, what I call
lions, they've got some very interesting
characteristics. They make up between 10
and 15% of the population from a
biological characteristic standpoint,
their melatonin stops early and their
cortisol starts early. So, their
melatonin stops at about 4:30, 5:00 in
the morning, and that's when cortisol
starts. And that's the reason why they
wake up so early.
>> What sort of window do the lions wake up in?
in?
>> So, it's interesting because I've got
some lions who are kind of extreme, like
they're getting up at 4:30 in the
morning, which is not really probably
the best idea. But generally speaking,
my lions get up right around 5 5:15 up
until about 6:00 6:30, but they are
definitely my early risers. They have a
small breakfast. They don't like to eat
a lot of food early in the in the
morning time because a lot of these
people like to go work out fairly
quickly after they've uh after they've
woken up. um which is very different
than some of my other chronotypes. My
night owls don't like to work out in the
morning. They don't like to do anything
in the morning. So, my lions like to
work out early in the morning. A light
breakfast. And also, their best work
window is usually somewhere between like
9:30 and 11:30. Like, that's when all
the good stuff gets done. Like when they
have if they have to get details or if
they have to do brainstorming or things
like that, that's really kind of where a
lot of the magic happens for them. By
about two o'clock in the afternoon,
there's not a lot of stuff left inside
the lion to be able to do do a lot of
good things. That's when I have lions do
more physical activities that don't
require a lot of cognition. So maybe you
go for an afternoon walk or maybe you
have uh you know you're you're meeting
with your folks that may not be really
detail oriented but more processoriented
in the afternoon
>> admin and stuff.
>> Yeah, absolutely. I actually had one uh
fellow chronotype his entire company and
then move meetings based on who was
going to be in the meeting. Like it like
he had all the early birds and he had
meeting at 8:00 in the morning and then
all the night owls he had a meeting at
4:00 in the afternoon. He said it was
amazing. He said it worked out really
really well.
>> Wow. What's the next one?
>> So the next one is the bear. So bears
are representative of people that are in
between early birds and night owls,
right? So bears are the best. Honestly,
dude, I wish I was a bear because the
whole schedule of life works on a bear
schedule. 9 to5 is perfect for a bear.
And they make up between 50 and 55% of
the population. So, literally one out of
two people is a bear.
>> And when's their peak work time?
>> So, their peak work time has a tendency
to be sort of in the noon to 2:00 range.
Um, they're a little bit later than what
you would see the line. Some of them, I
think, can actually be better at 11.
It's kind of interesting. And we've had
almost 3 million people take the quiz
and we've discovered that inside of
bears, there appear to be early bears
and later bears. So there are people who
fall into that category but like to get
up a little bit early. So for them their
productivity window is probably 10:30,
11. But for the later bears, it's more
like 11:30, 12, and then it's about a
2hour window after that.
>> For the people listening, um on screen
at the moment is a grid showing you the
different chronotypes, the weight times,
the peak work window, and the sort of
afternoon slump time. What's the next chronotype?
chronotype?
>> So, the next chronotype is me, the wolf.
>> I think I'm a wolf.
>> You might be a wolf.
>> I love lions. I get it. I get a wolf.
>> Well, you might be. Hey, look, join me.
It'd be great. So, wolves represent the
night owls, right? And so, wolves are my
artists, my actors, my creatives. If you
know a creative, when do they get their
biggest idea? It's not 2 o'clock in the
afternoon, it's 2 o'clock in the
morning. Wolves are my highest
risktakers. I know that that probably
you fall into that category as well.
Wolves are the folks that show up at the
party at 11 o'clock at night, but they
stay till 2 o'clock in the morning and
they help you clean up and they hate
mornings more than anything.
>> So, should we talk about dolphins?
>> What's the next one? Yeah,
>> dolphins. This is the category that you
fell into. So, let's talk about who are
the dolphins and and what does this
actually represent? So, dolphins are
usually highly intelligent. They're
usually people who are fast-talking,
well- read. These are people who are a
lot like a lion in terms of they like to
get up. They crave longer bouts of
sleep, but unfortunately their body just
doesn't have a long sleep drive and so
they get really frustrated a lot of
times. Um, also I think they have just a
teeny bit of anxiety behind them. So a
lot of them, for example, the details
really matter to a dolphin, right?
Versus other people where details might
not matter nearly as much. I think a lot
of my dolphins have got just a little
bit of obsessivecompulsive disorder. So
they're kind of focused in on the on the
different things. Like if I ask a
dolphin to do a project, generally
speaking, they're never finished with it
until I say, "Can you just give me the
project back now because they're always
working on a little detail here or
working on a detail there." Um, but
dolphins are my favorite. They're the
people that I actually wrote the book
for. Um, they're the ones that I I enjoy
working with the most. Um, because
they're actually the easiest to work
with because we can once I explain to
them how their hormones can be up and
down and sideways, it can it starts to
make a lot more sense for them. And for
anyone trying to figure out which one of
these they are, where do they go to do
the test and how long does it take?
>> Yeah, you can go to my website. It's
called chronoquiz.com.
Uh, and uh, it takes about 3 4 minutes.
It's not very long at all. It's going to
ask you a bunch of questions about your
sleep, about timing, things like that.
>> Okay, I'll put that in the description.
So, after you finish listening, you can
all go take it and let me know your
thoughts in the comments section as
well. So, once you figure out what your
chronosype is, come back to the episode
and and let me know below, >> please.
>> please.
>> And does my sleep change with age,
Michael? It does. Absolutely.
>> So, do my do my chronotypes change with age?
age?
>> They do, actually. So, believe it or
not, you've gone through all the
chronotypes already. When you're an itty
bitty baby, you're a lion. You go to bed
really early. You wake up really early,
right? Then you're a toddler, right? And
in in like grammar school, you're a
bear. You're going to bed around 7:30.
You're waking up around 7:30. Then
adolescence hits, right? What do you
want to do? Stay up until midnight and
sleep until 2, right? You become a wolf.
Then at about 23 24 your chronotype has
a tendency to set into one of those
three or four things and then you stay
there for an extended period of time
like 25 30 years until you hit my age.
So I'm going to be 58 soon and right
when you hit in the mid-50s what we see
is melatonin production can either slow
down or get earlier. So as an example if
your parents are still alive and you
said hey mom dad I want to go for
dinner. What time would they want to go
for dinner? >> Early.
>> Early.
>> Right? four o'clock in the afternoon,
4:30 in the afternoon, you're like,
"What is wrong with you, mom? What's
going on?" That's her chronoype is going
backwards and your sleep changes over
the course of time. To be clear, at once
you hit like age probably 50, 45 or 50,
we start to see a slowdown in production
of melatonin. We also see an increase in
what are called EEG arousals. So things
that break up your sleep and make it so
it's not so continuous. That can be
problematic as well. So there's a lot of
things that can happen as you age.
>> So do I start sleeping less as I get
older? You start sleeping poorer
quality. I'm not convinced that it's
always less.
>> And is that going to make me grumpy?
>> Yes, it is. >> Really?
>> Really?
>> Absolutely. Poor quality sleep is, I
would argue, is much worse than poor
quantity sleep. I I would rather I've
got somebody who got 5 hours of really
great sleep versus seven hours of really
light crappy sleep every time.
>> Does that mean that as I get older, I'm
going to be more grumpy?
>> It depends on the quality of your sleep.
So, what I can teach you is how to not
get poor quality sleep as you age.
Perfect example, a lot of folks who are
a little bit on the older side are used
to drinking coffee late in the day.
Well, if you change that habit, then you
don't have as many sleep problems.
>> And I shouldn't I shouldn't be having
coffee late in the day at all.
>> Probably you want to stop by about 2
p.m., right? So, if you stop around 2
p.m., the halfife of caffeine is between
6 and 8 hours. So, 8 hours later is
roughly 10, which is roughly when people
are kind of wanting to go to sleep. So,
I would say that that would probably be
the the time to do it. I think about my
siblings and us all being woken up for
school and I think about my performance
in school
>> and of all my siblings, there's four of us.
us.
>> I was the one that always struggled with
being woken up in the morning in part
because I'd gone to bed later.
>> But then I was also the one that
struggled with school the most.
>> Yeah. That characteristic of a wolf
characteristic of this night person. If
I'm honest with you, dude, like most
kids should not be waking up at the time
they're waking up to go to school,
right? I mean so many kids are waking up
at real like you know 5:30 6:00 in the
morning they have an hourong bus ride
then they get there and if you're an
adolescent I don't think anything could
be worse >> right
>> right
>> so we have to really start to try to be
a little bit more thoughtful and look at
like what are some of the activities
that kids are doing how can we get them
to maybe take naps during the day if
they need them um athletic performance
can depend on sleep academic performance
can depend on sleep it's it's
unbelievable all the different things yes
yes
>> has there ever been any research done
>> there has on different chronotypes
academic performance.
>> There has been actually they haven't
they labeled it directly as chronotypes
but they've looked at it based on age
range and we know that for example here
in the United States there's a big push
for to change school start times so that
way high schoolers aren't starting at
7:00 in the morning because high schools
shouldn't be starting at 7 o'clock in
the morning. Preschoolers should be
starting at 7 o'clock in the morning
because their body naturally wakes up at
that time. So, we've actually seen there
was a great study um that was done at
the University of Minnesota that
discovered that um when they just had
people come in 1 hour later from their
first period, they improved by one full
letter grade, meaning they went from
being C students to being B students or
from B students to A students merely by
changing the timing of their first
class. So that should give you pretty
good insight as to sort of these big
area like and and all children are
vulnerable to this. Like this is not
like I'm not telling you anything that's
new. This is these are studies that have
been going on for quite a while. And
there's actually a whole movement trying
to get school start times to to slow
down now.
>> Looking at some of the research here, it
says research consistently shows that
morning types, which is the >> lion,
>> lion,
>> the lion, earn higher grades not due to
higher IQ, but because exams are
scheduled during their peak alertness
windows. You got it.
>> That's crazy.
>> Sometimes wolves turn out to be much
smarter, but because they're they can't
perform at those early times, nobody
knows. Remember, wolves are my
creatives. Like, where do you think some
of these create great creative
innovations and ideas come from in the
tech world, right? Like, these are the
wolves that are out there that are up
late at night coding and trying to
figure out what's going on.
>> It's pretty cool when you think about
it. And I just there's this thing called
the synchronous synchrony effect from a
study in 2020 where nearly 800 students
found a clear synchrony effect. Students
performed significantly better when
their class schedule matched their chronotype.
chronotype. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> Those morning people dominated in
morning classes and and the owls um or
the wolves often caught up and
outperformed the morning people when
tested in the afternoon or evening. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> It's pretty fascinating. Now think about
it like this. Could you imagine a school
system where if we identified children's
chronotypes during their particular age
range and then we changed the testing so
that they got tested when they're at
their peak hours? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> They'd actually do better.
>> People don't know this, but I never do p
podcasts in the morning.
>> I don't blame you ever.
>> You shouldn't. Yeah.
>> It's it's not your time. Yeah.
>> Right. Like you have a very specific
subscribed time that I think works well
for you. So I think you should abide by that.
that.
>> Duration of sleep. There's lots of
conversation around how long you're
supposed to sleep for. What what's the
truth? Yeah.
>> 8 hours is a myth. Let's be fair. Like
we came up with that from like the 30s.
There was a great study at Stanford that
came up with 8 hours and 13 minutes plus
or minus. And that's kind of where we
came up with that as an idea. The truth
of the matter is somewhere between 7 and
9 hours really is kind of the amount
that people should be looking for. But
some people don't have that luxury. Some
people don't have that much time that
they can put towards sleep and so they
get a little bit less sleep. But for the
lower level limit, I don't like anybody
getting less than 6 hours. When somebody
gets less than 6 hours sleep, their
driving is off. And so you can't operate
machinery. So if you're driving to work
or god forbid, carpooling your kids to
school and you're only you only got, you
know, less than 6 hours of sleep on on
board, it's probably not going to go well.
well.
>> We we do have to stop here and talk
about parents because listen, you're
either a parent now, you might be
someday. Absolutely.
>> Maybe you won't be. But for those I've
just got a huge amount of respect for
parents because you know I've gone I'm
not a parent yet. I hope I will become
one. But when I see what my brother who
has three kids under the age of what
seven now um
>> how much sleep has he lost?
>> A lot and and and his wife as well. But
um you must get parents coming to you
all the time being like what the hell do
I do? Like I've got the I've got to wake
up when the kids wake up and but I'm
it's destroying my my relationship, my
marriage, my sex, whatever it might be.
>> Yeah. So parenting children and sleep
are difficult to coexist, but they're
not impossible. It really has to do with
discipline and kind of thinking through
some ideas for yourself. When my So I
have a 23-year-old son and a 22-year-old
daughter, so I'm a little bit out of the
the realm of having to deal with them
every day. Um, but I was, like I said
before, I was in charge of mornings uh
at our house waking them up. And it's a
lot, right? And so the very first thing
that I try to explain to parents,
especially if they have a child who has
an irregular sleep pattern and is really
causing chaos for the rest, like one
child who won't go to sleep and it's
keeping every the whole house up. First
thing you want to do, educate the kid,
right? A lot of kids don't know what
they're doing is causing a lot of
problems. They they're just kids.
They're just hanging out having fun. You
know, they're they've got energy. They
want to be awake. So that you want to
educate them and say, "Hey, now is a
particular time to wind down. This is
where your body recovers. this is how
you get to do sports the next day or
theater the next day or ac whatever your
computers whatever your thing is you can
tie it to sleep and performance pretty
easily and so getting them to understand
that becomes very very critical number
two is have some guidelines right have
bedtimes have wake up times and follow
them as quick as closely as you can for
parents oftentimes what I try to tell
them to do is like look after your child
goes to bed if you've got a child that
has problems for sleeping
take turns. Do what I call the on call
method. So, as a doctor, sometimes, you
know, you get a call in the middle of
the night because you you're covering
patients at the hospital for your buddy
or something like that. You're on call.
So, when you've got two people who are
managing one child, one person handles
Monday night, Wednesday night, Friday
night, the other one handles Tuesday,
Thursday, Saturday. You flip a coin for
Sunday. So, if the kid wakes up at 2
o'clock in the morning, both parents
aren't awake. One parent has that
responsibility. the other one can keep
their eyes closed and go to sleep.
Interesting study was done looking at
men and women in bed when a child cries.
So women take care of the child whereas
men lie there and fake sleeping in order
to be able to stay asleep, right? That's
problematic. Um in a lot of
>> they know in the study that they were
fake sleeping
>> because they asked the men afterwards
what were you doing and they all said
they woke up and they were faking it.
It's pretty crazy when you think about
it. But this is a big this is a big deal
for parents, right? A lot of parents
turn to me and they're like, "This is
killing our marriage." Like, "We haven't
had sex in, you know, three years
because we've got a child who maybe the
child has special needs or maybe the
child doesn't have special needs, but
has other things going on or maybe it's
just normal development and and you
know, they're worried about it." And so,
what I like to sit down with parents and
do is number one, let's figure out when
your kid needs to sleep and let's set
some guidelines and rules. But number
two, let's do the same for you.
>> Right? A lot of parents when they're
super stressed out, one of the first
things they do, grab a glass of wine,
right? Wine's about the worst thing you
could possibly do for sleep to be fair.
Now, I'm going to teach people how you
can still have a glass or two of alcohol
and not completely destroy your sleep.
But I want to be very clear about
something. If you're using alcohol as a
stress relief tool at night before bed,
it's messing up your sleep probably
pretty bad.
>> You might be asleep, but the quality of
your sleep is
>> is [ __ ] It's awful, right? And
interestingly enough, during the one
stage of sleep that alcohol knocks out,
which is stage three and four sleep,
what's the most interesting is that dur
during that particular stage of sleep,
there's something called the
glimpmphatic system that comes in and
scoops out these proteins that have a
tendency to accumulate in your brain.
And when proteins accumulate in your
brain, they wrap around the nerves and
that's called Alzheimer's disease.
>> So stage four sleep is imperative to
avoid Alzheimer's disease. And when you
drink alcohol, you destroy stage four
sleep. H.
>> So, it would be great if nobody drank
alcohol, but I'm not so stupid as to
think that. Plus, I like bourbon. I like
whiskey. I enjoy a glass of champagne
every once in a while. So, how can you
successfully still drink alcohol and
still get a decent night's sleep? I'm
going to give you a quick one, right?
Let's say you're having dinner at 6:30,
have your first glass of wine, then have
a glass of water, right? Then your
second glass of wine starts at, let's
say, almost 7:00, right? Then you have
your second glass of water. Then you
stop everything by 7:30. You wait 3
hours, which would be 10:30, and then
you can go to bed.
>> Why the water? Why the weight?
>> So, the water helps wash it through the
system. Also fills your stomach up so
you don't have too much. So, you you've
got more fluid in there so that way you
don't drink extra wine. Um, and it makes
you have to pee, which flushes the
system out as well. The 3 hours.
>> And it hydrates you.
>> It does. Okay.
>> Absolutely. Because remember, wine pulls
uh both magnesium and uh most water out
of your system because it makes you have
to go pee.
>> Helps with the hangover. So, there's a
couple of different things that I would
say. Number one, this definitely helps
with the hangover because you've got
water going in. For a lot of my
patients, what I tell them is the very
last thing that you could do is have a
little bit of coconut water. So, coconut
water is loaded with zinc, magnesium,
and vitamin B. And those are some of the
things that get pulled out of your
system uh when you're drinking. By the
way, did you know that there are happy
hours specific to your chronoype?
>> Didn't know that. No.
>> Yeah. So, it's kind of interesting. So
here's what's cool about it is your body
produces something called alcohol
dehydrogenase which is how you
metabolize alcohol but it does it at a
particular time and the time is
different for each chronotype.
>> So your body is most efficient at
drinking between basically the hours of
4 and 8 happy hour as a lot of people
know it.
>> And how do you think about what time you
eat at night time?
>> Such a great question. So 3 hours before
bed, you want to stop fluids including
alcohol um and food. You want to just
stop it all 3 hours before bed. So it
takes your body about that level of time
to number one digest, clear all the
food, and then have all the mechanisms
that are working towards digestion now
be able to be refocused onto the
recovery process of sleep. However, I I
will tell you that there's this uh I've
seen a couple people and there are
people out there that are claiming that
if they stop eating at 11:00 in the
morning that it helps their sleep
dramatically at night. And it turns out
it has to do with your heart rate. So,
one of the big metrics that is very
important that all of our viewers and
listeners want to know is you need a
heart rate of 60 or below in order to
enter into a state of unconsciousness.
And when you've got food in your stomach,
stomach,
>> your heart rate is up.
>> That's right.
>> So, right. So if the longer you can
wait, the lower your heart rate is, the
easier it gets into sleep. And so when
we're talking about So a great example,
let's get back to parents for a second,
right? You feed your kids at an earlier
time and then what do you do? Oh, then
you go back and have dinner with your
spouse, right? Maybe that's not the best
idea because you're having dinner so
late. Maybe you should have dinner with
your kids, right? And and enjoy that
time with them and eat earlier because
that gives you more space later on to be
able to relax and go to bed. I said that
tracks because I remember I've told this
story once or twice before. I remember
when I was doing some podcasts over here
in LA, we had Seth Rogan on. >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> And the day before in the hotel before I
lived here, I had a cookie from the mini
bar. I'm going to admit it. I had the
cookie and
>> they're so good.
>> It was And then I went to bed pretty quickly.
quickly.
>> Oh god,
>> we were just terrible. And I was looking
at my whoop the next day ad
>> and it my heart rate
>> was like 75 or 80 for the first 2 to 3
hours after I got into bed.
>> Isn't that crazy?
>> And I woke up feeling like hell. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> Terrible day the next day. I was
terrible during the conversation
>> and I looked at my go, "Oh my god, it
was that cookie. It put my heart rate high."
high."
>> So also on top of that is sugar.
>> Yeah. I mean, [ __ ] me. Yeah.
>> Right. So sugar turn so sugar actually
slows production of melatonin. Remember
melatonin is kind of the key that starts
the Yeah. The key that starts the engine
for sleep.
>> So is there anything else that I can do
to make sure my heart rate is low as I
get into bed?
>> Absolutely. Meditate. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Breath work. All kinds of brings my
heart rate down.
>> Yeah. Absolutely. So what a lot of
people don't realize is just because
we're breathing doesn't mean we're
actually breathing in a way, shape, and
form that can be helpful for us for
sleep. So, in my most recent book,
Sleep, Drink, Breathe, I talk a lot
about breath work and what is it and how
does it work for you. But I'd love to
teach you my favorite form of breath
work and meditation. Um, that I think
you'll you'll get a lot out of. So,
>> and I do this before bed. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> And you can, by the way, you can do it
in the middle of the night if you wake
up as well. Right. So, let's talk about
how to get how to fall asleep and do
some relaxation exercises for that. And
then I'm gonna give you some different
ones for in the middle of the night. So,
let's talk beginning of the night. So,
number one, you need runway to land the
plane. Okay? So many people think
they're just waiting for their head to
be bobbing in front of the TV and then
they go brush their teeth and they get
in bed and then all of a sudden they're
wide awake and they don't know what's
going on, right? So, you need time for
your system to shut down. It's not an
onoff switch. It's more like slowly
pulling your foot off the gas and slowly
putting your foot on the brake. There's
a process. It should take you about 12
to 15 minutes to actually fall asleep.
Okay? So number one, what I ask people
to do is take the last hour before bed
and chop it up into three 20 minute
segments, right? So let's say you're
going to bed at 11, starting at 10:00.
And by the way, set an alarm on your
phone to to tell you that it's 10:00
because it's really easy to slide by
your bedtime and then all of a sudden
it's like all bets are off. So set the
alarm 20 minutes for [ __ ] you just got
to do. So, in our house, it used to be
getting backpacks together for school
for our kids, finding sports equipment,
maybe laying out my stuff for work the
next day or getting last emails sent,
something like that. 20 minutes for
hygiene, right? Brush your teeth, wash
your face, maybe take a shower,
something along those lines. And then 20
minutes for some form of meditation,
relaxation, prayer. I don't care what
you do, but it has to be something
that's calming to get you there. Okay?
So, my one of my favorite techniques to
do is meditation. Now, I'm going to be
honest with you. I'm a terrible
meditator. I have never been able to do
it. I've actually gotten kicked out of
meditation retreats because I'm the guy
that's like, "What's going on?" Like, am
I doing it right? You know, I'm kind of
that that person. And so, I was I was
told about this tool called a Muse
headband. We have one right here. So,
this is my personal Muse. I actually
brought it from home. And um you'll
notice on the inside there are sensors
here. And there are sensors along the
earpiece here. And so what happens is is
you wear it on your head, right? And
it's measuring your brain waves. And so
when we're Yeah. Check it out. And so
when we're when we're doing it and we're
measuring brain waves. Yep. Exactly. And
that goes on the back part. Yeah. There
you go. So what's cool about this is
it's attached to an app. And then while
it's measuring your brain waves, you're
listening to a particular music. It
could be a guided meditation. It could
be any of those things. And while you're
doing this, the volume gets lower. And
then you know you're getting closer to a
meditative state.
>> The volume comes down when
>> on the app when your brain wave starts
to relax.
>> Oh, okay.
>> So, you're immediately getting feedback.
We can try it if you want. Um, but it's
pretty interesting. And then when you
get to the alpha state, little birds
start chirping.
>> The alpha state.
>> Yeah. The alpha state is when your eyes
are closed and you're at the most
relaxed state of your brain waves. It's
called the alpha state. And that's
really what people are trying to get to
for meditation.
>> And are you affiliated with this company
in any way?
>> I am not.
>> And how much does it cost? I think it's
around $275
I think is the headband.
>> Okay. Interesting.
>> It's pretty fascinating. Um I I've been
pretty impressed with them.
>> So that's meditation.
>> You talked about breath work as well before.
before.
>> Yeah. Let's talk about it. So one of the
other things that I do is I do something
Well, this isn't breath work. This is
called progressive muscle relaxation. So
this is where you tense and relax
muscles starting from your feet and
going all the way up your body. And as
you tense and relax the muscles, you
feel that relaxation from releasing that
tension and it helps you fall asleep.
Um, actually, you know what I can do is
I can send you a an audio file that has
me walking through progressive muscle
relaxation that we can make available
for everybody if you want. We for free.
It's no big deal.
>> Amazing. I'll put that in the
description below as well.
>> Yeah. Yeah. People will really dig it. I
think they'll really enjoy it. So,
that's another thing that we do. But
now, let's talk about the middle of the
night, right? So, by the way, do you
have this as an issue? Have this has
this happened to you before? It it
happens sometimes and it's typically
when like my sleep is somewhat
disordered or disruptive or when there's
really something on my mind.
>> Yes. So that that precipitatory anxiety
like before a flight like if I have an
8:00 in the morning flight like I sleep
like [ __ ] the night before because I'm
constantly worried about that. Right.
But a lot of times what people do
normally is they just wake up in the
middle of the night and they can't
return to sleep and they're really not
sure why. So number one there's biology
involved. So your core body temperature
rises rises rises and when it hits a
peak it drops. That drop is then a
signal to your brain to release
melatonin. Right? Again, the key that
starts the engine for sleep. However,
your core body temperature continues to
drop, drop, drop. By the way, this is
the reason why we tell people you want
to sleep in the cool, not the warm
environment. Because again, your core
body temperature is dropping. If it's
too hot, your core body temperature
can't go down and you can't get to sleep,
sleep,
>> which tracks with evolution.
>> Exactly. So, here's where it gets
interesting is it keeps going, going,
going, and then at some point in time,
your body has to heat up. And if it
doesn't heat up, you go hypothermic.
Guess what time that is? Between 1 and 3
o'clock in the morning.
>> Oh, your body starts heating up at 1 1
and 3.
>> Every single person's body on Earth does
this. Everybody on Earth wakes up
between 1 and 3:00 in the morning.
However, most people burp, roll over,
get comfortable, and fall back asleep in
30 seconds. However, there's a select
group of people who end up being my
patients who don't have that. And there
here in lies the problem. So, here are
the steps you want to take in the middle
of the night to be able to solve this
issue. So number one, don't go pee. I
know, I know, I know people like, "What?
What are you talking about, Michael?" So
here's what ends up happening is when
people wake up in the middle of the
night, they say to themselves, "Well,
I'm up. I might as well go pee." Right?
Here's the problem. Remember I told you
the big metric was in order to enter
into a state of unconsciousness, you
need a heart rate of 60 or below. Right?
What do you think happens to your heart
rate when you go from a lying position
to a seated position to a standing
position? You walk across the room, your
heart rate goes straight up. So what we
want to do is keep your heart rate down.
So, if you don't really have to go to
the bathroom, don't go to the bathroom.
75% of people sleep on their sides and
they kind of squunch up, which means
they're putting pressure on their
bladder. So, my guess is is that most of
those people, if all you did was when
you woke up is lie and get on your back
for about 25 seconds and see if you
still need to pee. If you don't need to
pee, stay in bed and keep your heart
rate down. If you need to pee, please go
pee. Right? If you're going to go to the
bathroom, have a strategically placed
nightlight along the way so you don't
have to flip on the light in the water
closet because if you do that, you just
told your brain it's morning and it
stops producing melatonin. But let's say
you don't have to pee. The second thing,
don't look at your phone. Now, this
turns out to be very difficult for 99%
of the people out there because the
first thing they do is they grab their
phone and they head to the bathroom,
right? and they're either checking
emails, looking at Facebook or Twitter
or whatever social media they're on,
>> or we're just trying to figure out what
time it is
>> or and that's where the problem is is as
soon as you see the time, you instantly
do the mental math and now you're pissed
off, right? It's 3:30 in the morning. I
got to get up at 6:00. Sleep, sleep,
sleep. And you try to force your brain
to sleep. Dude, in the history of time,
nobody has been able to force their
brain to sleep, okay? Because your heart
rate's going in the wrong way, right? It
needs to be coming down. So, if you can,
don't look at the clock. All right, so
you haven't peed, you haven't looked at
the clock, but you're still awake and
nothing's going on. Here's where the
breathing technique comes in. It's
called 478
breathing. I did not develop this
technique. It was developed by Dr.
Andrew Wild, Harvard trained natural
doctor, super smart dude. Um, and uh, he
did it for the military to teach them
how to lower their heart rate during
stressful situations. We use it because
it helps lower our heart rate past 60.
And it's super simple. I'm going to get
you to try it. So, go ahead and sit up
straight. Okay. And so all you're going
to do is breathe in for a count of four.
You're going to hold for a count of
seven. And you're going to breathe out
for a count of eight. And I'm going to
walk you through it. I want you to have
your eyes closed. And what I also want
you to do, you're going to go in through
the nose, out through the mouth. And
then what I also want you to do is
picture the number in your head. So when
I say breathe in two, three, four, you
should picture the two, the three, the
four in your mind's eye. Okay?
>> With my eyes closed.
>> With your eyes closed. You ready?
>> Yep. Breathe in. 2 3 4. Hold. 2 3 4 5 6
7. Push. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8. Good. You want
to get through about 20 cycles of that.
It's incredibly relaxing. I actually did
it before I came out here to do the pod
because it helps lower my heart rate and
gets me centered.
H. It's pretty remarkable. Now, there's
some problems with the technique. Number
one, sometimes it's hard to hold for
seven, and sometimes it's really hard to
push for eight. So, I tell people you
can do this four, five, six, 4, 6, 7, or
478. So, just work your way up to it,
right? If if it's too hard to hold your
breath for 7 seconds or it's too too
hard to push your breath for eight, you
can do a little bit less just while
you're getting used to it. And then the
other big thing is it's hard to figure
out where the 20 cycles is because you
need to get to 20 cycles of this. So,
what I have people do is take their
hands and make light fists while they're
doing this. And when they do one cycle,
they put out a finger. Another cycle,
put out a finger. And before you know
it, you got 10. And when you bring it
back, you've done 20 cycles.
>> It's funny. I just did two and I start yawning.
yawning.
>> I know. I just saw that. I'm telling
you, dude, this thing works, right? And
so, I have people do this technique.
Here's the best part is it avoids monkey
mind, right? So, what is monkey mind?
Monkey mind is I'm thinking about stuff
that I have no business thinking about
in the middle of the night for
absolutely no reason. Like what's on the
grocery list or what did I say to my
spouse or did that podcast go okay or
any of the things that might be floating
through your head? You cannot count and
worry at the same time.
>> And why does it work? What's going on in
my physiology? Uh-huh. You're
distracting the brain from the thing
that's stressing you out and it's
lowering your heart rate and then the
natural sleep process comes in after it.
So, all these are are distraction
techniques to be clear. Now, there's
there's several of them out there. One
of the other ones I use for some of my
patients is I tell them, "Hey, count
backwards from 300 by threes. It's
mathematically so complicated you can't
think of anything else and it's so damn
boring. You're out like a light." On
that point of distractions, a lot of
people go to bed listening to podcasts
or movies. Jack was just saying that,
you know, he he needs to listen to
something to fall asleep. I'm the same.
I listen to like serial killer stuff,
>> which is, you know,
>> that's interesting.
>> Don't don't judge me.
>> Wait till we get to the dreams part of
the podcast. I can't wait to hear what
you dream about. I
>> I don't I think I always try and figure
out why it is. And I My sister's the
same, my sister Amanda, and she
>> she listens to serial killer stuff to
fall asleep. I think it's because this
is just hypothesis. My mom would always
ask me to put on forensic files, which
was this like serial murder documentary
thing when we were younger cuz she
couldn't use the remote. So my mom would
say she'd pass me the remote, say, "Put
on forensic files." And I'd like put on
the number for her, right?
>> And so that was always playing in our
house at night time. And we all had TVs
in our bedroom that just mirrored what
was ever what was playing downstairs, course.
course.
>> So when I got into bed,
>> I'd watch
fall asleep.
>> This explains a lot about you.
>> I know, right? You say that to people,
they think you're yours. Yeah.
>> So, let me tell you what it's like in my
house. And actually, you and I have a
commonality. So, in my house, we have a
big screen TV. It's on all night long.
>> Where? In which room?
>> In my bedroom. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. When I met my wife, she said to
me, "Michael, if you ever happen to
spend the night, I want to let you know
that I sleep with the television on." I
said, "Don't worry about that, Lauren.
I'm gonna be a sleep doctor. I'm gonna
fix that." We we met when I was uh 30,
so uh known her for quite a while. And
uh you ever tried to change something in
your bed partner? Yeah, good luck.
>> Yeah, good luck. So I took the TV out.
She said, "If you ever want to come back
in here again, I suggest you put the I
put the TV back in." And then I studied
her to learn what was going on. And it
turns out that she's listening to it out
of what I call the corner of her ear.
Her eyes aren't even open. And half the
time it's a episode of Seinfeld or
something like that. My wife actually
likes murder mysteries and so it's
usually forensic files or something
along those lines that's going on. But
for her, it's a perfect distraction
technique. Now, there's a second thing
that's important uh in our bedroom that
happens uh is we have two dogs. They
sleep in the bed with us. I'm the
freaking sleep doctor, dude. Like, it's
insane. But the point here is sleep is
flexible. Okay? Just because it works
for you doesn't mean it works for your
bed partner. And and vice versa is also
true, right? Like just because some
people can't sleep with the TV on
doesn't mean that it's going to mess up
your sleep forever to have the
television on cuz it's not. And by the
way, 99% of TVs have timers built into
them. Like if you don't know what it is,
ask your kid. I had to ask my son. He
showed me how to use it. We turned it
off. It wasn't a problem, right? So
creating a sleep environment that is
conducive to sleep for you and your bed
partner can have a lot of variation to
it. And I don't think people there's no
hard and fast rule that says, "Hey,
nobody should ever sleep with the TV
on." I mean, there are people out there
who say that, but quite frankly,
everybody sleeps with the TV on.
>> Well, a lot of people do. I I I wouldn't
put the TV on in our bedroom. I mean,
we've done it once or twice or whatever,
cuz we're watching something and we slip
off to sleep and I wake up and I realize
it's on and I turn it off.
>> But I I also really think it's an
important point to say that people will
listen to podcasts like this. They'll
listen to the like biohackers of the
world and then they'll get so militant
about how they fall asleep that it will
cause friction because one partner is different.
different.
>> Don't do that. And I had this problem in
my relationship which was
>> my girlfriend sleeps in silence and is
has like just such a glorious routine to
everything she does.
>> And I am
>> completely the opposite
>> and the opposite like I need to like I
want to listen to a murder. I could be
on my phone. It's like when I look at my
Whoop scores
>> works for me. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> It's like I am getting I have I get
great sleep even if I'm listening to a
serial killer documentary. >> So
>> So
>> but not if you eat a cookie before bed.
>> Not if I eat a cookie. That's that's
gone. But I so what I do is I put one
AirPod in in my right ear. So whichever
ear is not going to be on the pillow
>> and it means I can listen to her if she
says something.
>> But when it's silence, all I hear is the
thing that I'm listening to.
>> So I've got a trick for you.
>> And I wake up in the morning and dig the
AirPod out of the bed where it ended up.
>> Right. So now I'm going to help you with
the digging of the AirPod. So first of
all, they now make these things called
pillow speakers.
>> Oh, interesting.
>> Right. So it's a it's a it's a Bluetooth
speaker that will attach to your phone
that you can just slide and it's just
under your pillow so only you can hear
it. So, that's number one. You might
want to consider that. And they're
pretty inexpensive. Number two, they now
make specifically earbuds designed to be
slept in.
>> Oh, nice.
>> So, there's a a new company out called
Next Sense. Um, and they have developed
an earbud that actually measures your
brain waves while you are sleeping. And
when you move into a lighter stage of
sleep, it sends in a frequency signal to
help you go back to sleep or to stay in
that depth of sleep. Brand new company.
Next sense. I have nothing to do with
them. I mean, it's a friend of mine who
owns the company, but I'm not on their own.
own.
>> I would like something to do with them
>> if we'll figure that out.
>> So, does it allow you to play your music
as well or your or your podcast or whatever?
whatever?
>> I can listen to Diary of a CEO every
single night while I fall asleep and it
will make sure that I don't wake up from
any dreams.
>> And you can still like and subscribe and stuff.
stuff.
>> Even through the earbuds, of course. I
think everybody should like and subscribe.
subscribe.
>> That's a good feature like an AI agent
that helps you subscribe. Okay, so
that's that's you woke up in the middle
of the night. You don't pee. You don't
check your phone. You're doing these
breathing exercises. You don't give
yourself a hard time.
>> And then what happens? It doesn't work.
What do you do? Yeah. Right. So, there's
the new research on something called
non-sleep deep rest. We call it yoga
nidra. Okay? It's been around for
thousands of years. When you lie relaxed
in like a corpse pose like this, you're
actually doing something that's valuable
for your sleep. Now, I want to be clear.
It's not the same as sleep, but if you
lie there for an hour, it's like 20
minutes worth of sleep. So everybody
should know that even lying relaxed and
calm is very very helpful right but if
you start to get anxious and your heart
rate starts to tick up you need to get
yourself out of bed because that's when
because all you're doing then is
thinking hey this bed is this place
where I get anxious and pissed off. This
is not a place to sleep. So as long as
you stay nice and quiet the non-sleep
deep rest absolutely the thing to do.
The other big thing that I do and by the
way this happens to me on occasion too
like I'm not immune to it just because
I'm a sleep doctor. You have to stay
positive. And what I what do I mean by
that is everybody when they wake up in
the middle of the night, your brain is
set to negativity. There's no reason you
should be up at 3:00 in the morning that
something good is going on, right?
Nobody's coming in wishing you happy
birthday at 3:00 in the morning.
Something terrible has happened. And
your brain has gotten accustomed to
that. So when it wakes up, it
immediately goes to the negative and you
start thinking about bad things. You
can't stop your first thought, but you
can stop your second thought, right?
Right? And so when you wake up and you
think negative, what I want you to
replace that with is, "Okay, Michael,
for some reason, your body has decided
to wake up at 3:00 in the morning, it's
not the game that I wanted to be playing
tonight. However, I think I'm going to
be okay. I'm just going to lie here and
relax and let the natural sleep process
take over. If I feel my heart rate
increasing, I'm going to go to another
room in the house where I've already got
a book and a light set up so I can do a
little bit of light reading and then
come back to sleep." And I just tell
myself that I give myself permission to
just chill, just relax. And then you
know what happens? The natural sleep
process comes over. As soon as your
heart rate starts to go down, your body
wants to get back to sleep. And so it
really has a lot to do with heart rate.
>> I love having these conversations on the
diio because I have a huge amount of
sympathy and concern for people that
don't get sufficient sleep. And I know
there's a lot of people that don't. And
I actually think it's to some degree
it's somewhat increasing because of the
way we live our lives. I was looking at
some of the stats around the increase
and there's a study done in 2025 and
early 2026 that revealed we're in a
global sleep crisis.
>> Oh yes, we are.
>> Both the CDC and Stanford Medicine
report said that one in three adults and
nearly 80% of teenagers are now
chronically sleepdeprived.
>> Correct. A 2026 survey by the American
Academy of Sleep Medicine found that 93%
of Gen Z admit to regularly losing sleep
due to social media usage. And 71% of
employed respondents globally have said
>> that they sometimes call in sick at
least once or twice due to poor sleep.
>> Just to sleep. Yeah. When I was down in
Australia doing some work down there, a
lot of Australians they take holiday and
they just sleep. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Just to catch up. Like it's it's pretty
remarkable. We're in a very sleep-d
deprived society and I think there's a
couple of different reasons why that is.
Number one,
>> have you seen what's going on outside in
the world today? It's pretty crazy out
there. Well, I can understand why people
are getting a little anxious.
>> I think one could argue it's been
crazier through history, but we never
knew about it,
>> right? Well, I mean, the media getting
it to getting us this information so
quickly, I think, is definitely what I
would agree with you. It was much
crazier during like World War II, you
know, and stuff like that. Now we're
getting information so quickly and
people are getting so ratcheted up about
it. I think that has something to do
with it. But if I I think the bigger
culprit is people being overweight. You
know, when you look here in the United
States and you look at the obesity
epidemic and you look at people being
overweight, it's something close to like
70s something percent of people in
America are overweight. When you're
overweight, that puts you in line for
potentially having something called
sleep apnea. Now, I want to be clear,
not everybody with sleep apnea is
overweight, but a a large percentage of
the people with sleep apnnea are bigger
people. And so, when you look at a
society that's getting bigger and all
the unhealthy food that we've got going
on, like all this highly processed food,
things of that nature, that isn't
helping anybody, it's adding the pounds.
And specifically, like for men, we gain
weight through our necks. Like I I don't
know if you've ever noticed it, but like
if you ever were heavy and you lose
weight, the first thing somebody says
is, "Oh, it looks like you lost weight
cuz I can tell from your face, right?"
and they're like, "Oh, your neck looks,
you know, different now." And so, we see
a lot of what's going on in the world
from a weight perspective and a food
perspective could be driving some of the
sleep problems. Then there's the anxiety
perspective that I spoke of earlier that
I think comes in. And again, I I agree
with you. I don't think we have more
crazy stuff going on. I think we know
about more crazy stuff that's going on, >> but also work is now largely digital.
>> but also work is now largely digital. And I imagine for my great-grandfather,
And I imagine for my great-grandfather, he would go to, I don't know, the
he would go to, I don't know, the factory or wherever he works. His work
factory or wherever he works. His work would finish at 6.
would finish at 6. >> Yes. Your work doesn't finish at 6 now.
>> Yes. Your work doesn't finish at 6 now. It finishes when you're awake.
It finishes when you're awake. >> Yeah. Absolutely. It finishes when you
>> Yeah. Absolutely. It finishes when you go to sleep.
go to sleep. >> Yeah. Exactly.
>> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. And and that becomes problematic,
>> Yeah. And and that becomes problematic, right? Because a lot of times also, by
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studio apartment and your bed is your couch is your kitchen, right? You have
couch is your kitchen, right? You have no designated spot for sleep. Your body
no designated spot for sleep. Your body needs to know, hey, this is the spot
needs to know, hey, this is the spot where I can chill out and finally get
where I can chill out and finally get some rest. And I think a lot of times
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Terms and conditions apply. >> Which sleep disorder should we start
>> Which sleep disorder should we start with?
with? >> Sleep apnea and insomnia. Sleep apnea,
>> Sleep apnea and insomnia. Sleep apnea, for folks out there who may not know
for folks out there who may not know what it is, is when you are snoring at
what it is, is when you are snoring at night. Almost everybody who has sleep
night. Almost everybody who has sleep apnea snores. Not everybody, but almost
apnea snores. Not everybody, but almost everybody. And when you're sucking air
everybody. And when you're sucking air in, you pull your tongue to the back of
in, you pull your tongue to the back of your throat and you cut off your air.
your throat and you cut off your air. And you literally stop breathing, right,
And you literally stop breathing, right, for a few seconds. And then all a sudden
for a few seconds. And then all a sudden you and you make all this kind of
you and you make all this kind of grunting, groaning noises. and then you
grunting, groaning noises. and then you wake up. This can happen hundreds of
wake up. This can happen hundreds of times a night and it can be very
times a night and it can be very problematic because of course it wakes
problematic because of course it wakes you up every single time that you have
you up every single time that you have one of these events, right? And so as an
one of these events, right? And so as an example, we measure the events per hour.
example, we measure the events per hour. So as an example, somebody with sleep
So as an example, somebody with sleep apnnea could have between five and 15
apnnea could have between five and 15 times per hour that they stop breathing
times per hour that they stop breathing and that's mild.
and that's mild. >> So how are they going to get into the
>> So how are they going to get into the deep sleep that clears out their brain?
deep sleep that clears out their brain? >> That's the problem, right? And so apnea
>> That's the problem, right? And so apnea prevents them from getting into a lot of
prevents them from getting into a lot of that deep sleep. And so their brain
that deep sleep. And so their brain doesn't clear out and then they got
doesn't clear out and then they got they're they're kind of screwed. So at
they're they're kind of screwed. So at the end of the day, the the goal here is
the end of the day, the the goal here is to get as many people to number one
to get as many people to number one identify if they have a sleep disorder
identify if they have a sleep disorder and then be able to try to figure out
and then be able to try to figure out what to do about it. And the percentage
what to do about it. And the percentage of people in the US that have
of people in the US that have undiagnosed sleep apnea is pretty big.
undiagnosed sleep apnea is pretty big. It's like somewhere between I think like
It's like somewhere between I think like 18 to 20%.
18 to 20%. >> This is crazy. I was just looking at the
>> This is crazy. I was just looking at the stats. It says according to 2026 data
stats. It says according to 2026 data approximately
approximately 936
936 million people to 1 billion adults
million people to 1 billion adults worldwide have obstructive sleep apnnea
worldwide have obstructive sleep apnnea which is what one in seven
which is what one in seven >> yeah that's about right
>> yeah that's about right >> making it as common as diabetes. One in
>> making it as common as diabetes. One in seven people listening have sleep
seven people listening have sleep apnnea.
apnnea. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> As popular as diabetes. Let that sink in
>> As popular as diabetes. Let that sink in for like half a second. Everybody knows
for like half a second. Everybody knows what diabetes is. Almost nobody knows
what diabetes is. Almost nobody knows what sleep disorders are. Specifically
what sleep disorders are. Specifically sleep apnnea. And it says 80 to 90% of
sleep apnnea. And it says 80 to 90% of those people remain undiagnosed. That is
those people remain undiagnosed. That is correct.
correct. >> So there's people listening right
>> So there's people listening right there's actually a huge percentage of
there's actually a huge percentage of people listening right now
people listening right now >> that have sleep apnea and have no idea
>> that have sleep apnea and have no idea that they have it.
that they have it. >> Exactly. Right.
>> Exactly. Right. >> How would they know?
>> How would they know? >> Do the sleep test.
>> Do the sleep test. >> This thing here.
>> This thing here. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And what would this show?
>> And what would this show? >> So this would this actually collects
>> So this would this actually collects what is your oxygen levels throughout
what is your oxygen levels throughout the night? What is your heart rate
the night? What is your heart rate throughout the night? How many times do
throughout the night? How many times do you actually stop breathing? And also
you actually stop breathing? And also the depth of your sleep, which stages of
the depth of your sleep, which stages of sleep you get when you fall asleep,
sleep you get when you fall asleep, things like that. And what would this
things like that. And what would this So, you know, because people are going
So, you know, because people are going to be like, "How do I know if I need to
to be like, "How do I know if I need to do the test?"
do the test?" >> So, great question. So, you want to
>> So, great question. So, you want to think about the symptoms that you might
think about the symptoms that you might have. So, do you snore? Do you wake up
have. So, do you snore? Do you wake up gasping for air? Has anybody told you
gasping for air? Has anybody told you that your snoring stops for brief
that your snoring stops for brief periods of time or that they've heard
periods of time or that they've heard you gasping for air? Do you wake up with
you gasping for air? Do you wake up with a headache in the morning? Do you find
a headache in the morning? Do you find your moods are up and down? All of those
your moods are up and down? All of those are signs and symptoms of sleep apnnea.
are signs and symptoms of sleep apnnea. >> And this test, are you affiliated with
>> And this test, are you affiliated with this company at all? I am not. But um we
this company at all? I am not. But um we do have that test on my website. We sell
do have that test on my website. We sell it to people so that way we can test
it to people so that way we can test them.
them. >> And how much does it cost?
>> And how much does it cost? >> $189.
>> $189. >> Okay. So it's not
>> Okay. So it's not >> it's not exorbitantly expensive. And it
>> it's not exorbitantly expensive. And it also is covered by insurance.
also is covered by insurance. >> And it connects to an app.
>> And it connects to an app. >> Uh-huh. Absolutely. So you'd put it
>> Uh-huh. Absolutely. So you'd put it through your sleeve.
through your sleeve. >> So I' I'd put that there and like this.
>> So I' I'd put that there and like this. >> Yeah. Exactly. And that's it. You go to
>> Yeah. Exactly. And that's it. You go to bed, wake up, then the information ports
bed, wake up, then the information ports over to your phone and then tells us
over to your phone and then tells us exactly what's going on. Now, here's
exactly what's going on. Now, here's where it gets even better. I know,
where it gets even better. I know, right?
right? >> Can you imagine me getting in bed with
>> Can you imagine me getting in bed with my fiance and being like, "Come on,
my fiance and being like, "Come on, babe. Let's
babe. Let's >> We're recording all kinds of good stuff.
>> We're recording all kinds of good stuff. Who knows what she might like?
Who knows what she might like? >> Is this going to help my sex life?"
>> Is this going to help my sex life?" >> It's absolutely it will because getting
>> It's absolutely it will because getting into bed and knowing how well you sleep
into bed and knowing how well you sleep and knowing if you have sleep apnea or
and knowing if you have sleep apnea or not will definitely affect your sex
not will definitely affect your sex life. Also, by the way, I've saved more
life. Also, by the way, I've saved more marriages as a sleep doctor than I ever
marriages as a sleep doctor than I ever would have as a marital therapist
would have as a marital therapist dealing with snoring in the middle of
dealing with snoring in the middle of the night and things like that. So,
the night and things like that. So, you'd be you'd be surprised. But what's
you'd be you'd be surprised. But what's nice about this is it's one night. You
nice about this is it's one night. You don't have to do it multiple nights.
don't have to do it multiple nights. It's super easy. Um, and again, believe
It's super easy. Um, and again, believe it or not, that's disposable. You can
it or not, that's disposable. You can actually throw that whole thing away
actually throw that whole thing away after it's all said and done.
after it's all said and done. >> And on that point, before we just go a
>> And on that point, before we just go a little bit further into sleep apnnea,
little bit further into sleep apnnea, should should we be sleeping in bed with
should should we be sleeping in bed with our partners? And I know that's an
our partners? And I know that's an interesting thing.
interesting thing. >> Great question. Great question. The
>> Great question. Great question. The strength of your relationship has
strength of your relationship has nothing to do with where you sleep.
nothing to do with where you sleep. Okay? So, lots of people are like, "I
Okay? So, lots of people are like, "I got to sleep with my partner otherwise
got to sleep with my partner otherwise my relationship's going to go to [ __ ]
my relationship's going to go to [ __ ] and everything's going to go terrible
and everything's going to go terrible and we're never going to have sex and
and we're never going to have sex and we're not true." Okay. So, a lot of
we're not true." Okay. So, a lot of times for people that I have, so for
times for people that I have, so for example, I've got people who um have
example, I've got people who um have sleep apnnea and they use a a machine to
sleep apnnea and they use a a machine to help them sleep called a CPAP machine,
help them sleep called a CPAP machine, right? And um that noise for some people
right? And um that noise for some people can be disruptive and so they sleep,
can be disruptive and so they sleep, let's say, in a different room, right?
let's say, in a different room, right? So, is that is that detrimental to your
So, is that is that detrimental to your marriage? No, it's not. Because here's
marriage? No, it's not. Because here's what you do is you vacation on the
what you do is you vacation on the weekends in your bedroom, right? I can't
weekends in your bedroom, right? I can't count the number of people who sleep
count the number of people who sleep separately during the week and then
separately during the week and then together on the weekends. And it turns
together on the weekends. And it turns out that they get much better sleep
out that they get much better sleep during the week. And then guess what?
during the week. And then guess what? Intimacy shows up much faster on the
Intimacy shows up much faster on the weekends because they're not so tired.
weekends because they're not so tired. Used to be, you know, not tonight I have
Used to be, you know, not tonight I have a headache. It was really not tonight
a headache. It was really not tonight I'm exhausted. When you allow your
I'm exhausted. When you allow your partner to get good sleep during the
partner to get good sleep during the week, there's a reasonably good shot
week, there's a reasonably good shot that you're going to be able to be
that you're going to be able to be intimate over the weekend if they got
intimate over the weekend if they got good sleep. So, wearing that to bed
good sleep. So, wearing that to bed might not be the sexiest thing in the
might not be the sexiest thing in the universe, but it's better than having
universe, but it's better than having sleep apnnea and eventually ending up
sleep apnnea and eventually ending up dead.
dead. >> Are the symptoms of sleep apnnea
>> Are the symptoms of sleep apnnea different for men and women?
different for men and women? >> They are. Great question. So, it turns
>> They are. Great question. So, it turns out that men and women are quite
out that men and women are quite different, but we've historically been
different, but we've historically been scoring them the same. So women don't
scoring them the same. So women don't have a tendency to have as much snoring
have a tendency to have as much snoring as men do. Um women have a tendency to
as men do. Um women have a tendency to have more arousals where they wake up
have more arousals where they wake up constantly. Women have a tendency to
constantly. Women have a tendency to report headaches in the morning more so
report headaches in the morning more so than men do. So it's actually different
than men do. So it's actually different types of symptoms for women versus men
types of symptoms for women versus men when it comes to sleep apnea to the
when it comes to sleep apnea to the point where we're now considering using
point where we're now considering using different testing devices. So this
different testing devices. So this testing device um would not necessarily
testing device um would not necessarily measure EEG and in women EEG might be
measure EEG and in women EEG might be important. That's what we're learning.
important. That's what we're learning. So, as an example, our company is
So, as an example, our company is finding a device specifically to send to
finding a device specifically to send to women so that way we can more accurately
women so that way we can more accurately measure sleep apnea in women. Now,
measure sleep apnea in women. Now, there's a lot of questions about
there's a lot of questions about treatment for sleep apnea. And the
treatment for sleep apnea. And the biggest reason why nobody gets sleep
biggest reason why nobody gets sleep tested is because they're afraid that
tested is because they're afraid that they're going to end up sleeping with a
they're going to end up sleeping with a CPAP machine on their face at night. And
CPAP machine on their face at night. And so, let me describe to your audience
so, let me describe to your audience what that is. Also, full disclosure, I
what that is. Also, full disclosure, I have sleep apnea. I don't look like
have sleep apnea. I don't look like somebody who has sleep apnea. I stop
somebody who has sleep apnea. I stop breathing in my sleep. I think it's 26
breathing in my sleep. I think it's 26 times an hour. I know, right? Kind of
times an hour. I know, right? Kind of crazy. And I wear a CPAT machine and it
crazy. And I wear a CPAT machine and it helps me sleep every single night. Let
helps me sleep every single night. Let me explain what it is. So, when your
me explain what it is. So, when your throat closes here, CPAT machine is a
throat closes here, CPAT machine is a little air compressor with a tube and a
little air compressor with a tube and a mask that sits on your nose, pushes a
mask that sits on your nose, pushes a just thin stream of just air, and when
just thin stream of just air, and when it hits that blockage, it ever so
it hits that blockage, it ever so slightly opens it up, shoots air
slightly opens it up, shoots air straight down to your lungs. Now, you
straight down to your lungs. Now, you might be saying to yourself, "That
might be saying to yourself, "That sounds barbaric. That is insane. That's
sounds barbaric. That is insane. That's a haird dryer blowing up my nose all
a haird dryer blowing up my nose all night long. Here's what I can tell you
night long. Here's what I can tell you is when you have a severe case of sleep
is when you have a severe case of sleep apnea, this can be a lifesaver. This can
apnea, this can be a lifesaver. This can be one of the biggest, most important
be one of the biggest, most important things that you possibly do. Now, a lot
things that you possibly do. Now, a lot of people say, "Oh, I don't think I
of people say, "Oh, I don't think I could sleep with a mask on my face."
could sleep with a mask on my face." Well, that's not the only treatment.
Well, that's not the only treatment. There are other treatments called oral
There are other treatments called oral appliances. This is like a a mouthguard
appliances. This is like a a mouthguard like you see the footballers wear, but
like you see the footballers wear, but it's an upper and a lower. and the lower
it's an upper and a lower. and the lower slowly brings your jaw forward which
slowly brings your jaw forward which opens up your posterior airway space.
opens up your posterior airway space. The same way that air pushes things
The same way that air pushes things aside, the oral appliance structurally
aside, the oral appliance structurally moves your jaw slightly forward thereby
moves your jaw slightly forward thereby opening up your airway. So that works
opening up your airway. So that works well and there's no mask on your face.
well and there's no mask on your face. There's a third device that you can wear
There's a third device that you can wear on your tongue that vibrates that
on your tongue that vibrates that shrinks your tongue by a couple of
shrinks your tongue by a couple of millimeters which opens up this
millimeters which opens up this posterior airway space and allows you to
posterior airway space and allows you to breathe better.
breathe better. >> Have you tried all of them?
>> Have you tried all of them? >> I have as a matter of fact. And why did
>> I have as a matter of fact. And why did you choose the apnea machine?
you choose the apnea machine? >> So for me, the apnea machine worked the
>> So for me, the apnea machine worked the best and made the most sense for me
best and made the most sense for me right now. But I'll be honest with you,
right now. But I'll be honest with you, I will probably get the uh mouthguard
I will probably get the uh mouthguard for when I travel. There's a lot that
for when I travel. There's a lot that can be done out there. And by the way,
can be done out there. And by the way, there's also surgeries and surgeries are
there's also surgeries and surgeries are a little bit more permanent fix. Um, but
a little bit more permanent fix. Um, but in many cases, those surgeries can be
in many cases, those surgeries can be quite effective. Also, by the way,
quite effective. Also, by the way, they're working on a pill
they're working on a pill >> for sleep apnnea now. And that's just
>> for sleep apnnea now. And that's just apnea. We haven't even talked about
apnea. We haven't even talked about insomnia yet.
insomnia yet. >> I was just reading about the FDA
>> I was just reading about the FDA approving a drug. Yeah, it's it's quite
approving a drug. Yeah, it's it's quite remarkable. And there's actually two I
remarkable. And there's actually two I think there's actually three different
think there's actually three different companies that are working on different
companies that are working on different drugs right now for sleep apnea. And I
drugs right now for sleep apnea. And I mean to be clear, when that happens, I
mean to be clear, when that happens, I think it's pretty much game over for
think it's pretty much game over for sleep apnea, right? I mean once we can
sleep apnea, right? I mean once we can get it in a pill form, which means
get it in a pill form, which means compliance increases dramatically, we
compliance increases dramatically, we can help a lot of people with sleep
can help a lot of people with sleep apnea, which I think would be pretty
apnea, which I think would be pretty amazing.
amazing. >> And women are heavily undiagnosed,
>> And women are heavily undiagnosed, right? Because we heavily
right? Because we heavily >> we think of it as I mean I've heard it
>> we think of it as I mean I've heard it being referred to as a sort of an old
being referred to as a sort of an old man's disease.
man's disease. >> Yeah. And oh, absolutely. And here's the
>> Yeah. And oh, absolutely. And here's the thing. Many women have a tendency to
thing. Many women have a tendency to report insomnia types of symptoms over
report insomnia types of symptoms over sleep apnea types of symptoms when in
sleep apnea types of symptoms when in fact they actually have under
fact they actually have under undiagnosed sleep apnnea, which we can
undiagnosed sleep apnnea, which we can catch.
catch. >> We talked a little bit earlier, but um
>> We talked a little bit earlier, but um from many of the conversations I've had
from many of the conversations I've had on the show about Alzheimer's,
on the show about Alzheimer's, >> yes,
>> yes, >> your chance of um getting Alzheimer's, I
>> your chance of um getting Alzheimer's, I imagine, is going to increase, right?
imagine, is going to increase, right? Because absolutely you have sleep
Because absolutely you have sleep apnnea.
apnnea. >> Yeah. Well, because when you have sleep
>> Yeah. Well, because when you have sleep apnnea, it keeps you out of the deeper
apnnea, it keeps you out of the deeper stages of sleep. the deeper stages of
stages of sleep. the deeper stages of sleep is where that lymphatic system
sleep is where that lymphatic system comes in and scoops out those proteins
comes in and scoops out those proteins and that's really probably one of those
and that's really probably one of those big causes for it. So that's one of the
big causes for it. So that's one of the things that we always want people to
things that we always want people to understand. But there's also something
understand. But there's also something else that I think is important to maybe
else that I think is important to maybe talk about which is on the other side
talk about which is on the other side not sleep apnnea side but on the
not sleep apnnea side but on the insomnia side which is there's a lot of
insomnia side which is there's a lot of people who go and they go to the
people who go and they go to the drugstore and they buy an
drugstore and they buy an over-the-counter sleep aid. Right now
over-the-counter sleep aid. Right now I'm not talking about supplementation
I'm not talking about supplementation yet. We can get into supplements in a
yet. We can get into supplements in a minute if you want to, but I'm talking
minute if you want to, but I'm talking about things like the PM medications,
about things like the PM medications, right? You know, they so here in
right? You know, they so here in America, we have them where there's like
America, we have them where there's like there's like an analesic plus a PM. So
there's like an analesic plus a PM. So there's Tylenol PM, Advil PM, and what
there's Tylenol PM, Advil PM, and what it is is it's a pain reliever, but they
it is is it's a pain reliever, but they add something called dyenhydramine and
add something called dyenhydramine and it makes you feel sleepy and it makes
it makes you feel sleepy and it makes you fall asleep. Dyenhydramine is
you fall asleep. Dyenhydramine is actually an antihistamine, right? So
actually an antihistamine, right? So it's used for congestion and things like
it's used for congestion and things like that. But there's now data to suggest
that. But there's now data to suggest that daily use of the PM part of this,
that daily use of the PM part of this, not the pain relieving part, but the PM
not the pain relieving part, but the PM part can lead almost directly to
part can lead almost directly to Alzheimer's.
Alzheimer's. >> Oh, wow.
>> Oh, wow. >> Right. So, if people can just go to bed
>> Right. So, if people can just go to bed and follow a couple simple rules and go
and follow a couple simple rules and go to bed naturally, you'd be shocked at
to bed naturally, you'd be shocked at how much better your world is going to
how much better your world is going to be. The Queensland Brain Institute um at
be. The Queensland Brain Institute um at the University of Queensland found that
the University of Queensland found that people with untreated apnea have a 45%
people with untreated apnea have a 45% higher risk of developing Alzheimer's
higher risk of developing Alzheimer's disease.
disease. >> Like I said,
>> Like I said, >> which is crazy.
>> which is crazy. >> Soant here's the thing is we've got all
>> Soant here's the thing is we've got all these people who are watching your show
these people who are watching your show right now. They need to start thinking
right now. They need to start thinking in their head like maybe I have sleep
in their head like maybe I have sleep apnea, maybe I don't, but maybe I should
apnea, maybe I don't, but maybe I should take a look at what are some of the
take a look at what are some of the symptoms and see if that's something
symptoms and see if that's something that could be going on for me. Because
that could be going on for me. Because again, testing is available. And to be
again, testing is available. And to be clear, it's not like I'm the only guy
clear, it's not like I'm the only guy out there testing people. I mean, there
out there testing people. I mean, there are sleep doctors all over the world
are sleep doctors all over the world that are testing people. My
that are testing people. My encouragement to people is, hey, figure
encouragement to people is, hey, figure it out. If if you can't figure it out,
it out. If if you can't figure it out, you know, shoot us an email. We'll find
you know, shoot us an email. We'll find a sleep center for you to go to. But if
a sleep center for you to go to. But if you think there's something going on,
you think there's something going on, it's definitely worth checking out
it's definitely worth checking out because, by the way, you can stay with
because, by the way, you can stay with undiagnosed sleep apnnea for your entire
undiagnosed sleep apnnea for your entire life. And it all it does is basically
life. And it all it does is basically break down everything that's going on
break down everything that's going on inside. And that's not what you want.
inside. And that's not what you want. Like remember sleep is recovery, right?
Like remember sleep is recovery, right? This is how your body still functions.
This is how your body still functions. Like if you want to lead a nice
Like if you want to lead a nice prosperous life, you want to sleep.
prosperous life, you want to sleep. >> Insomnia has become a bit of a word that
>> Insomnia has become a bit of a word that people throw around
people throw around >> for sure,
>> for sure, >> right? They they kind of self diagnose
>> right? They they kind of self diagnose themselves. We kind of think of it as
themselves. We kind of think of it as this one specific thing. I think people
this one specific thing. I think people say, "I have insomnia when they just
say, "I have insomnia when they just don't sleep well."
don't sleep well." >> Right.
>> Right. >> What is insomnia and what's the big myth
>> What is insomnia and what's the big myth around it?
around it? >> Yeah. So, number one, there's a couple
>> Yeah. So, number one, there's a couple of different flavors of insomnia.
of different flavors of insomnia. There's the I can't fall asleep. There's
There's the I can't fall asleep. There's the I can't stay asleep, which we talked
the I can't stay asleep, which we talked about quite a bit. There's the I wake up
about quite a bit. There's the I wake up too early, and then there's just the I
too early, and then there's just the I wake up from unrefreshing sleep. So, we
wake up from unrefreshing sleep. So, we really think that there are four sort of
really think that there are four sort of types of insomnia, right? And um when
types of insomnia, right? And um when people I would say some of the biggest
people I would say some of the biggest myths that a lot of people have
myths that a lot of people have surrounding insomnia is or like the
surrounding insomnia is or like the biggest problem that they do is when
biggest problem that they do is when somebody has a really crappy night then
somebody has a really crappy night then what they try to do is the next evening
what they try to do is the next evening go to bed early and try to catch up on
go to bed early and try to catch up on some of that sleep that they missed. So
some of that sleep that they missed. So to be clear this is a terrible idea
to be clear this is a terrible idea because your circadian rhythm isn't
because your circadian rhythm isn't ready to go to bed early. So you lie in
ready to go to bed early. So you lie in bed and you're exhausted but you can't
bed and you're exhausted but you can't fall asleep. you're what I call wired
fall asleep. you're what I call wired and tired, right? And so what we want
and tired, right? And so what we want people to do is if you do have a bout of
people to do is if you do have a bout of insomnia where you have difficulty
insomnia where you have difficulty falling asleep or difficulty staying
falling asleep or difficulty staying asleep, number one, don't overcaffeinate
asleep, number one, don't overcaffeinate during the daytime. So many people are
during the daytime. So many people are like, "Oh, I'm dragging. I got to get a
like, "Oh, I'm dragging. I got to get a coffee," you know, and and they and they
coffee," you know, and and they and they caffeinate, caffeinate, caffeinate, and
caffeinate, caffeinate, caffeinate, and then they caffeinate so late into the
then they caffeinate so late into the day that they have shitty sleep that
day that they have shitty sleep that night, and now we're in the washing
night, and now we're in the washing machine cycle going over and over and
machine cycle going over and over and over. It sounds like you might be
over. It sounds like you might be relating to this uh a little bit maybe
relating to this uh a little bit maybe yourself. And then so we want to avoid
yourself. And then so we want to avoid that. The other thing we want to avoid
that. The other thing we want to avoid is over stimulation at night, right? So
is over stimulation at night, right? So a lot of pimps people get that nervous
a lot of pimps people get that nervous energy and so they're just doing doing.
energy and so they're just doing doing. Again, you need runway to land the
Again, you need runway to land the plane. So give yourself some kind of
plane. So give yourself some kind of that space. Um and then just make sure
that space. Um and then just make sure that you've got some level of
that you've got some level of regularity. I would argue for my
regularity. I would argue for my insomnia patients, but quite honestly
insomnia patients, but quite honestly for anybody who's watching this, the
for anybody who's watching this, the number one sleep tip that I can give
number one sleep tip that I can give people is to wake up at the same time
people is to wake up at the same time seven days a week. Not go to bed. I
seven days a week. Not go to bed. I don't actually care when you go to bed
don't actually care when you go to bed that much. I know there's a lot of sleep
that much. I know there's a lot of sleep specialists out there who are like, you
specialists out there who are like, you got to go to bed at the same time and
got to go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time. I'm not of
wake up at the same time. I'm not of that ilk. I don't really care that much
that ilk. I don't really care that much about the going to bed time. I really
about the going to bed time. I really only care about the wake up time. Let me
only care about the wake up time. Let me explain why. When you wake up in the
explain why. When you wake up in the morning, sunlight hits your eye and you
morning, sunlight hits your eye and you have a special cell in your eye called
have a special cell in your eye called the melanopsin cell which sends a signal
the melanopsin cell which sends a signal to your brain to turn off the melatonin
to your brain to turn off the melatonin faucet in your head. But it sets a timer
faucet in your head. But it sets a timer for exactly 14 hours later. It's called
for exactly 14 hours later. It's called the melatonin phase response curve. So
the melatonin phase response curve. So if you're waking up at 6, melatonin
if you're waking up at 6, melatonin turns off until about 8:00 p.m. Then it
turns off until about 8:00 p.m. Then it takes about a couple hours for it to get
takes about a couple hours for it to get up and in. So then you start to get
up and in. So then you start to get sleep around 9:30 and you go to bed. But
sleep around 9:30 and you go to bed. But if you did that and now it's Saturday
if you did that and now it's Saturday and you sleep in until 8, melatonin
and you sleep in until 8, melatonin doesn't kick off until 10:00 Saturday
doesn't kick off until 10:00 Saturday night. So what I'm saying is the time
night. So what I'm saying is the time that you wake up directly determines
that you wake up directly determines when your internal melatonin kicks into
when your internal melatonin kicks into gear. So if everybody woke up at the
gear. So if everybody woke up at the exact same time every single day, seven
exact same time every single day, seven days a week, automatically you would get
days a week, automatically you would get tired at the right time and you would
tired at the right time and you would start going to sleep.
start going to sleep. >> And is there two different types of
>> And is there two different types of insomnia? Sometimes I hear primary,
insomnia? Sometimes I hear primary, secondary insomnia. I think you have
secondary insomnia. I think you have that on your YouTube channel.
that on your YouTube channel. >> So when you look at primary insomnia
>> So when you look at primary insomnia versus secondary insomnia, the way we
versus secondary insomnia, the way we categorize that, secondary insomnia is
categorize that, secondary insomnia is usually due to something else that's
usually due to something else that's going on in your life. So
going on in your life. So >> psychology,
>> psychology, >> so maybe caffeine abuse.
>> so maybe caffeine abuse. >> Okay?
>> Okay? >> Right? Um maybe something along those
>> Right? Um maybe something along those lines. Whereas primary insomnia is
lines. Whereas primary insomnia is there's nothing else. You the only thing
there's nothing else. You the only thing you've got going on is sleep disorder.
you've got going on is sleep disorder. Another example of of something where
Another example of of something where insomnia might be secondary would be
insomnia might be secondary would be pain.
pain. >> Right? So if you have a pain syndrome,
>> Right? So if you have a pain syndrome, if you have fibromyalgia or low back
if you have fibromyalgia or low back pain, that could prevent you from
pain, that could prevent you from sleeping. That would be secondary
sleeping. That would be secondary insomnia, secondary to pain.
insomnia, secondary to pain. >> And I hear that the most common
>> And I hear that the most common treatment for insomnia is CBT therapy.
treatment for insomnia is CBT therapy. >> So yes and no.
>> So yes and no. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> So I would say that the most common
>> So I would say that the most common therapy for insomnia is alcohol.
therapy for insomnia is alcohol. >> More people drink themselves to sleep
>> More people drink themselves to sleep >> than any other single thing out there.
>> than any other single thing out there. Um and then you start to get into the
Um and then you start to get into the pharmacy of it all. And there's a lot of
pharmacy of it all. And there's a lot of pharmaceutical drugs out there that
pharmaceutical drugs out there that people utilize for for sleep. And I want
people utilize for for sleep. And I want to make a point if I can is there's
to make a point if I can is there's nothing wrong with needing a pill to
nothing wrong with needing a pill to sleep. Okay? I want to be very clear
sleep. Okay? I want to be very clear about this. There are people out there
about this. There are people out there who need pills, right? All kinds of
who need pills, right? All kinds of different ones. Thank you. There's a
different ones. Thank you. There's a whole host of reasons why you and your
whole host of reasons why you and your doctor may have come to the conclusion
doctor may have come to the conclusion that a sleeping tablet is good for you.
that a sleeping tablet is good for you. The problem comes when those sleeping
The problem comes when those sleeping tablets are overprescribed. So insomnia
tablets are overprescribed. So insomnia is in the in the sleep world, we call it
is in the in the sleep world, we call it a door handle diagnosis because when the
a door handle diagnosis because when the doctor has their hand on the door and
doctor has their hand on the door and they're just about to leave, that's when
they're just about to leave, that's when the patient says, "Oh, and by the way,
the patient says, "Oh, and by the way, I'm not sleeping."
I'm not sleeping." >> And then the doctor usually pulls out
>> And then the doctor usually pulls out the prescription pad and says, you know,
the prescription pad and says, you know, ambient or trazadone or something like
ambient or trazadone or something like that, writes it up, says, "Here, come
that, writes it up, says, "Here, come back in 30 days." Well, you haven't
back in 30 days." Well, you haven't really done anything for this person.
really done anything for this person. You've handed them a pill. And by the
You've handed them a pill. And by the way, now they're probably either
way, now they're probably either psychologically or physiologically
psychologically or physiologically addicted to said pill right now. Once
addicted to said pill right now. Once again, if you've got a major mental
again, if you've got a major mental health issue, I don't think I care. I
health issue, I don't think I care. I think it's okay for you to have your
think it's okay for you to have your AMVN and be fine. And
AMVN and be fine. And >> and a lot of people that do have
>> and a lot of people that do have insomnia have depression.
insomnia have depression. >> Oh, I think it's one of the biggest
>> Oh, I think it's one of the biggest things that we see. But I would argue
things that we see. But I would argue anxiety might be a little bit more than
anxiety might be a little bit more than depression. But yes, anxiety and
depression. But yes, anxiety and depression, I would argue, make up 75%
depression, I would argue, make up 75% of insomnia at any given time. Right? I
of insomnia at any given time. Right? I work with people and I do something
work with people and I do something called cognitive behavioral therapy for
called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia which you correctly identified
insomnia which you correctly identified as CBTI, right? And so I work with
as CBTI, right? And so I work with patients all the time. Um, and that's
patients all the time. Um, and that's exactly what we do is we reschedule
exactly what we do is we reschedule them. So that's the behavioral part. And
them. So that's the behavioral part. And then the cognitive part is we talk to
then the cognitive part is we talk to them about how do you think about sleep?
them about how do you think about sleep? Because a lot of people think about
Because a lot of people think about sleep in disastrous ways. They're like,
sleep in disastrous ways. They're like, if I don't get eight hours, my old day
if I don't get eight hours, my old day is screwed and everything's going to
is screwed and everything's going to happen. It rarely happens that way. Like
happen. It rarely happens that way. Like it's called catastrophizing. You just
it's called catastrophizing. You just make it worse and worse and worse. And
make it worse and worse and worse. And so we look at those cognitive
so we look at those cognitive distortions and we help fix them in
distortions and we help fix them in therapy by really kind of what I call
therapy by really kind of what I call doing the math. And so I say, "Well,
doing the math. And so I say, "Well, have you ever had four hours of sleep?"
have you ever had four hours of sleep?" "Yes." "Did you do something terrible
"Yes." "Did you do something terrible the next day?" "No." "So where's your
the next day?" "No." "So where's your evidence?" Right? And you start to get
evidence?" Right? And you start to get people to challenge themselves and all
people to challenge themselves and all of a sudden they kind of they can kind
of a sudden they kind of they can kind of get there. There's also another area
of get there. There's also another area of that a lot of people go to somewhere
of that a lot of people go to somewhere in between the pills and therapy, and
in between the pills and therapy, and that's supplementation. So there's a lot
that's supplementation. So there's a lot of people out there who like to use
of people out there who like to use supplements and try to understand how to
supplements and try to understand how to fix quote their insomnia with
fix quote their insomnia with supplementation. So if we can let's talk
supplementation. So if we can let's talk a little bit about supplements and sort
a little bit about supplements and sort of what's good and what's bad.
of what's good and what's bad. >> What is the difference between a
>> What is the difference between a supplement and a pill or is it you
supplement and a pill or is it you talking about the same thing here? So
talking about the same thing here? So under the context of this conversation,
under the context of this conversation, a supplement is a non FDA regulated
a supplement is a non FDA regulated thing that you can purchase at any
thing that you can purchase at any drugstore and a pill is a by
drugstore and a pill is a by prescription only from a doctor.
prescription only from a doctor. >> Okay,
>> Okay, >> that's how we're going to make the
>> that's how we're going to make the distinction for this particular
distinction for this particular conversation.
conversation. >> Okay, so those pills that are in front
>> Okay, so those pills that are in front of you there,
of you there, >> so right in front of me, these are most
>> so right in front of me, these are most these are actually all supplements. So
these are actually all supplements. So these are different. So these are not
these are different. So these are not pharmaceuticals. These are different
pharmaceuticals. These are different things. So, we've got
things. So, we've got >> I mean, in different countries, it's
>> I mean, in different countries, it's different, right?
different, right? >> Great point. So, let's talk about
>> Great point. So, let's talk about melatonin since that's kind of the
melatonin since that's kind of the biggie that a lot of people like to know
biggie that a lot of people like to know about. So, number one, melatonin is by
about. So, number one, melatonin is by prescription only almost everywhere
prescription only almost everywhere other than the United States,
other than the United States, >> right? So, in England, in Australia, in
>> right? So, in England, in Australia, in Europe, you can't just walk into the
Europe, you can't just walk into the drugstore and buy melatonin. And there's
drugstore and buy melatonin. And there's a reason. A lot of people don't realize
a reason. A lot of people don't realize it, but melatonin is a hormone. There's
it, but melatonin is a hormone. There's a reason you can't go to the CVS and get
a reason you can't go to the CVS and get testosterone and estrogen, right?
testosterone and estrogen, right? Because hormones affect the entire
Because hormones affect the entire system. They affect all three almost 300
system. They affect all three almost 300 different things in your body. So what
different things in your body. So what you don't want to do is have somebody
you don't want to do is have somebody just willy-nilly grabbing a hormone and
just willy-nilly grabbing a hormone and starting to pop it without somebody
starting to pop it without somebody understanding what's going on with them.
understanding what's going on with them. More importantly, melatonin in
More importantly, melatonin in particular, and the point I wanted to
particular, and the point I wanted to make earlier about depression, melatonin
make earlier about depression, melatonin interacts with all SSRI medication. An
interacts with all SSRI medication. An SSRI is a serotonin specific reuptake
SSRI is a serotonin specific reuptake inhibitor, an anti-depressant. So things
inhibitor, an anti-depressant. So things like Prozac, Zoloft, um, Selelexa, all
like Prozac, Zoloft, um, Selelexa, all of those are medications that will be
of those are medications that will be affected by melatonin ingestion and
affected by melatonin ingestion and nobody knows that it is. In addition,
nobody knows that it is. In addition, melatonin affects birth control. Yes,
melatonin affects birth control. Yes, you heard it here, birth control. It
you heard it here, birth control. It affects blood pressure medication and it
affects blood pressure medication and it affects diabetes medication. So, one of
affects diabetes medication. So, one of the problems is that people go into the
the problems is that people go into the local drugstore and they're like, "Oh,
local drugstore and they're like, "Oh, I'm going to grab some melatonin and I'm
I'm going to grab some melatonin and I'm going to make my sleep better because
going to make my sleep better because I'm sleeping poorly." So, first of all,
I'm sleeping poorly." So, first of all, that's not what melatonin does.
that's not what melatonin does. Melatonin is a sleep regulator, not a
Melatonin is a sleep regulator, not a sleep initiator. Melatonin doesn't
