0:11 do they at this point do they know that
0:17 they're twins some do some don't
0:18 so that's another that's another issue
0:21 of course
0:25 I don't know how to handle it myself
0:28 how you know how many twins are there
0:30 and how many are are aware that they're
0:34 twins and how many are not
0:35 I mean what's the scope of the problem
0:37 in that sense [Music]
0:39 [Music]
0:42 I want to talk about that [Music]
0:54 happy birday happy birthday to you
0:57 happy birthday to you
0:59 happy birthday [Music]
1:02 [Music]
1:10 [Applause] [Music]
1:28 [Music]
1:30 my name is Howard buck
1:33 born in New York City I guess I found
1:34 out later on when I was smart enough to
1:38 know any better that uh I was adopted
1:41 two loving parents that were my mom and
1:44 dad for sure I mean there could be no other
1:50 shock again yes I grew up in Westbury
1:51 Long Island New York and then we moved
1:54 up to brookly Massachusetts and my
1:56 parents always used to tell me that I
1:58 was more special because they chose me
2:01 as opposed to just had me seemed like
2:02 something special to be adopted I don't know
2:04 know [Music]
2:10 it's a little bit more involved than
2:11 just he you know our mother gave us up
2:13 for for adoption cuz she couldn't handle
2:14 us and and you know they ended up
2:17 separating us I'm sure that happens but
2:50 some scientists in 1960s were deciding
2:52 to study nature versus nurture evidently
2:55 they found a way through the adoption
2:58 agency to place twins with different
3:00 families my father and mother were never
3:09 Howard and I were put in strangely
3:11 similar family backgrounds our fathers
3:13 were both business Executives mothers
3:15 were Housewives we both had sisters 3
3:24 sent the paperwork I got a call from
3:27 someone from the Louise wise agency and
3:29 she proceeded to tell me that I have a
3:32 an iCal twin brother which uh pretty
3:34 much out of the blue floored me I mean
3:45 that was tough cuz I every day I just
3:47 had that on my mind every day who is
3:49 this guy where does he live how do I
3:57 [Music]
3:59 she said I had a twin brother who' been
4:00 looking for me for a couple years and
4:02 said I almost drove off the road when uh
4:04 when I heard that cuz that was the last
4:07 thing I was ever expecting to hear [Music]
4:25 looking out in our pool where we like to
4:27 spend a lot of our time when the weather
4:30 is real nice it's not being very good to
4:32 us today these are pictures of the
4:34 children when they were quite small
4:39 Debbie's and Doug's children
4:42 well we were married a couple of years
4:45 and we figed try and make have a baby
4:48 and nothing happened and we said let's
4:50 try adoption and that's how we got to
4:53 Louise wise
4:56 they gave us stlas and said we we'll let
4:58 you have this child but we're going to
5:01 monitor it so it was a question of if I
5:04 say no they won't give me the child I
5:05 think there was a certain amount of
5:08 coercion to our permitting them to
5:10 conduct the study
5:13 they made it sound like uh this was to
5:16 everybody's benefit to see how smart
5:18 this kid is cuz I don't know him here
5:20 we're adopting a child we don't know him
5:22 we don't know his background but in
5:24 never dawnn on me why they coming back
5:29 [Music] Oh
5:40 I thought you had it I want I want Sali
5:49 the kids had a playroom downstairs
5:52 the tomb would play but all of a sudden
5:54 I don't want to play anymore and you
5:56 just slam everything away from him and
5:59 Debbie would come upstairs she says he's
6:00 playing realiz she doesn't want to play
6:03 with me I went down I said what's wrong
6:06 Douglas nothing something was missing in
6:08 this kid's life [Music]
6:09 [Music]
6:12 as happy as we thought he was he was not
6:15 happy he'd fight with kids in school
6:19 he'd have uh uh he'd interrupt his
6:24 playing and suddenly erupt in Anger
6:26 there's very little question in my mind
6:29 thg's original anger revolved around the fact
6:30 fact
6:31 that he knew there was something missing
6:33 in his life but he didn't know what it was
6:48 [Music]
6:50 so the Louise wise agency was an
6:52 adoption agency placed children from
6:55 unwed mothers but it also advised
6:57 mothers primarily Jewish ones who were
6:59 pregnant how they could manage their
7:00 infants who they were relinquishing for
7:03 adoption I guess they sought outside
7:04 assistance to do this in the best way
7:06 possible and one of their contacts was
7:09 Dr Bola Bernard a psychiatrist from
7:12 Columbia University [Music]
7:24 Twins were purposefully being separated
7:26 because of a misguided unproven notion
7:29 on the part of Viola Bernard that twins
7:31 are better off being in separate
7:34 families there is nothing no basis to
8:27 Albert the effeminate boy arrives late
8:30 the therapist welcomes him Albert is
8:32 cautious though seemingly not too frightened
8:44 note how Albert delicately Pats his hair
8:46 and adjusts his color
8:48 his movements are not characteristic of
8:53 a real boy jbg Jewish board Guardians
8:55 had a number of floors and some of them
8:58 were clinical operations uh it was all
9:04 Albert's feminine characteristics are
9:06 even more in evidence when he addresses
9:08 another boy
9:10 so there were some clinics going on
9:12 there were other research projects that
9:13 were happening there the Child
9:16 Development Center was run by newbower
9:19 who was a a very prominent child psychoanalyst
9:21 psychoanalyst
9:23 so he was my ultimate boss but I didn't
9:26 see him very much he didn't come in that
9:30 often and I was only part-time
9:33 so when when I was hired on in 1968 as a
9:36 research assistant I was mainly supposed
9:38 to help with the organization and
9:41 Analysis of the data we wanted to see if
9:43 we could tease out some of the
9:46 subtleties of these uh child rearing
9:49 processes and family Dynamics and how
9:51 that might affect the development of
9:53 these two individuals who were
9:55 genetically identical but are being
10:00 raised in in totally different families [Music]
10:27 it was amazing how disorganized the
10:29 project was
10:32 when I realized that see I went into
10:33 this with the idea that I was going to
10:36 get a dissertation out of it and that I
10:38 would carve out some piece that would be
10:41 my dissertation and then I discovered
10:56 come on that's not even funny flying out
10:58 there and I I remember being more
11:00 nervous about that one event than
11:02 anything I was out of my mind on that
11:04 whole plane ridee
11:13 you man wow a little bigger
11:16 good eating good living I mean same luck
11:18 same lucking
11:20 in the mirror
11:41 I have champagne at home
11:47 right off the bat we we pretty much hit
11:50 it off and um I felt like I knew this
11:53 person my whole life it's like I knew my
11:55 whole life I think we lived a parallel
11:59 life we lived similar parallel lives We
12:01 Got Married the same year we got married
12:08 just get right in the middle watch where
12:24 they both keep their wallets in their
12:26 front pocket they both don't use any
12:28 condiments at all it's not just ketchup
12:30 and mustard it's condiments in general
12:33 it was the first question Diane asked
12:35 does Doug use condiments and I'm like he
12:37 has no use for them if Doug had a salad
12:39 there'd be no dressing on it you really
12:42 don't meet a lot of people that would
12:44 never even have salad dressing or try ketchup
12:46 ketchup
12:48 and Howard's the same way I mean that
12:50 that's not usual I mean that's that's
12:53 really very very different I know that
12:55 I've said this on numerous occasion when
12:57 I was growing up and I don't think I
12:59 really understood it but I really felt
13:01 like I was missing something in my life
13:02 I didn't know what it was I couldn't
13:06 touch it I couldn't feel it it's amazing
13:09 that I had a twin brother and maybe that
13:31 we have love relationshipss we have
13:33 sibling relationships we have kinship
13:35 relationships but of all of those
13:38 relationships the most unusual and rare
13:41 is the identical twin relationship it's
13:46 a clone it's it's a replicant of you
13:49 it's it's precious in a way uh people
13:52 who are twins talk about how there's
14:00 well if it's true that the twin
14:02 relationship is perhaps the closest
14:05 relationship in nature that you are
14:09 closer emotionally to your twin than
14:13 anyone else you will ever meet
14:16 then that has been taken away from you
14:19 you have lost that relationship
14:33 [Music]
14:35 there's nothing I can think of in
14:37 science that is more political than twin studies
14:39 studies
14:41 these Studies have been used to justify
14:46 racism classism and Nazism you know many
14:54 [Music]
14:56 uh and so they're potent and explosive
15:00 politically and yet they're also really
15:02 useful and very helpful if you look at
15:05 them soberly because what the studies
15:08 don't say is that our genes are
15:10 responsible for everything no they don't
15:12 say that what they say is that we're
15:23 Sir Francis gon in England is considered
15:25 the father of the twin method he wrote
15:28 about this in the 1870s he didn't know
15:30 about the biological differences between
15:32 identicals and fraternal no what he did
15:35 but he correctly surmised that lookalike
15:38 twins shared 100% of their genes and non
15:41 lookalike twins shared some portion of
15:43 their genes and by comparing the two
15:45 then you could get some information
15:49 about nature and nurture
15:51 the new Bower study was unique in a
15:52 number of ways first it was because
15:55 Twins were purposely being separated
15:58 secondly you never study people without
16:00 their full knowledge families in the New
16:03 York area had no knowledge of a twin
16:05 study they were told they were
16:06 misinformed that it was a child
16:09 development study and that is hiding
16:13 basic facts when these children grew up
16:15 some of them met and that's really how
16:25 [Music]
16:26 now one of the most remarkable stories
16:27 I've seen in some time a story about
16:29 triplets they were born 19 years ago and
16:32 then given up at Birth for adoption each
16:34 one growing up in a different family
16:36 totally unaware that he even had a
16:39 brother let alone too two weeks ago this
16:41 man Robert chaffron checked into a
16:43 college in Upstate New York I got up
16:46 there and
16:48 everybody seemed to know me
16:50 Eddie how are you what's going on I
16:52 didn't know you were coming back this
16:55 was Bobby yes this was Bobby I was being
16:57 questioned and Bobby said my name isn't
17:00 Eddie it's Bubby girls were kissing me
17:03 on the mouth and guys were slapping me
17:06 on the back and people were greeting me
17:08 like I was just an old friend and I just
17:10 didn't know what was going on and this
17:13 is really Eddie Eddie Gallen he went to
17:15 the same College last year
17:17 coincidentally friends discovered the
17:19 connection and Eddie and Robert were
17:23 reunited it was like a choreograph thing
17:25 although it was unrehearsed
17:30 we both went oh my god oh my God oh my
17:34 God holy crap and it was it truly was a
17:37 mirror image somehow through the grap
17:40 Vine news day got involved The Daily
17:45 News the New York Post AP or UPI
17:47 it was everywhere they thought they were
17:51 twins but then David kelman saw their
17:53 picture in the paper they looked just
17:55 like him friend of mine came up to me
17:56 with a newspaper that had a picture of
17:59 two of me it didn't have birthdays it
18:01 didn't have any Hospital information but
18:03 it was painfully obvious at least and
18:04 but again it was so surreal that I
18:06 almost didn't believe it I saw him
18:09 coming to the door and I opened it and I
18:12 looked at him and then I closed it and
18:13 then I opened it and I looked at him and
18:15 I closed it again and he's doing what I
18:16 would be doing he's opening up the door
18:18 looking saying holy closing the
18:19 door and then he opens the door again he
18:22 goes oh my God he closes the door and by
18:25 the time I got to the door he had he was
18:27 opening the door I said and then he says
18:28 to me you haven't seen me in night 18
18:30 years and you slam the door on my face
18:32 and I walked in and we kissed and we
18:36 hugged they really were almost identical
18:40 their hairstyle they had giant afro but
18:42 if anybody had an afro they had a bigger
18:44 one you all smoke the same brand of
18:46 cigarettes yes you were all wrestlers at
18:48 one time yes you all feel like you've
18:49 known each other for 19 years even
18:51 though you've definitely yeah totally
18:55 how feeling we feel it we all the same
18:57 as soon as we started discussing our
19:00 personalties the same we always talk at
19:02 the same time we can't
19:04 we start I'll start a sentence and he'll
19:05 finish it it was not an energy it was a
19:08 Synergy and Synergy is when a
19:10 combination of particles creates
19:12 something much better than each
19:14 individual could possibly help for
19:15 that's what Synergy means and that's
19:17 what it was [Music]
19:23 they went to Louise wise to confront
19:26 them about the fact that there were not
19:29 only two which they had acknowledged
19:31 after only being forced to acknowledge
19:33 but actually three which they had not
19:37 even mentioned and obviously set up the
19:39 study and then started to test them to
19:42 see the effect of nurture and nature and
19:45 Louise y Stonewall them said that no
19:48 none of that was true and mor they said
19:51 if it was a study where was it published
19:54 I'd like to read the study
19:58 and they was never published [Music]
20:28 um all right here are my notes
20:33 interviews
20:36 and one of my very last interviews was
20:38 Dr Viola Bernard
20:41 okay I've got it on now so say again the
20:44 emphasis of the twin whoever
20:47 occasionally there were some identical
20:50 twins uh if it was good for them to be
20:53 placed separately and the existing
20:55 literature at the time and this I have
20:59 to emphasize the CH child's C the
21:01 literature at the time that we were
21:08 talking about was uh of the opinion that
21:11 the placement of TS
21:12 TS
21:16 who were identical
21:19 in separate homes had advantages for the children
21:21 children
21:25 I couldn't find such literature uh I
21:27 wanted to cite such studies but I never
21:30 in my research came across anything
21:33 really substantial that made the case
21:35 that Dr Bernard was making to me Viola
21:37 Bernard has talked about literature that
21:39 says that twins are better off being
21:42 raised apart I know of No Such studies I
21:44 I've never seen anything nothing in the
21:46 literature and I've read pretty widely
21:48 I've never seen anything that argues for
21:50 the separation of twins as being better
21:53 for them
21:56 here's another interview with Dr newow
22:04 tell me a little bit about the scope of
22:06 the study and how many people were
22:09 involved in it
22:12 the the for
22:14 special reasons which if if I were to go
22:17 into it you would understand the study
22:20 was only based on on a small number of
22:23 identical twins separated the bir yeah
22:25 I'm sure there aren't that many that one
22:28 could work with in that yeah on the many
22:30 many reasons of which go into this I
22:33 don't want to talk about that now
22:37 true it was a true Pro prospective study
22:39 one of the only ones really unusual yeah yeah
22:41 yeah
22:42 I don't think he ever really acknowledged
22:44 acknowledged
22:47 the damage that they might have done uh
22:52 to the twins themselves and um and the
22:55 trauma that they were preparing these
22:57 children to have when they grew into
23:00 adulthood in one day discovered that
23:01 they were Twins and that they had been
23:03 deprived of that relationship their
23:06 entire lives by
23:09 scientists who wanted to study them has
23:11 have there been ethical questions raised
23:13 about this study yeah there have been
23:15 questions raised by a number of people
23:18 when we looked for these kind of twins I
23:21 spoke once to the New York founding home
23:25 and uh she said you want us to for
23:29 adoption to give one baby this and one
23:31 another baby to another uh mother how
23:35 can we separate what God has United and
23:37 put together how can we do that and I
23:39 said to her but you are in the field of
23:42 adoption you separate mother and child
23:44 all time huh
24:04 I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant so I was in
24:08 about my fourth month I was 19
24:10 and I told my mother and she was not
24:13 happy about it
24:14 you were the worst when you were
24:17 pregnant and unwed
24:20 then I went to Louise why services and
24:22 they sent me to their home in Staten
24:26 Island for unwed mothers I was there and
24:27 I'd say from about my fifth or sixth
24:35 they were beautiful
24:36 a friend of mine picked me up at the
24:40 home and took me to my father's house
24:41 and I know I would stay in the bathroom
24:44 crying for hours on end
24:47 cuz it broke my heart to give them up
24:49 but then I thought it would be better
24:56 [Music]
24:59 I felt incredibly incredibly loved
25:02 incredibly loved my parents were the
25:07 most nurturing people ever
25:09 my mother would say things like if I
25:12 took a lie detective test I would pass a
25:14 lie detective test saying that I gave
25:20 birth to you like she really was just so
25:24 thrilled to have both of us I would say
25:27 that I had a great childhood I would say
25:31 that I also had a lot of sadness I have
25:33 thousand pictures of me pouting I would
25:35 pout and my mother would take a picture
25:38 and how cute I am pouting
25:43 I think I ran away like 20 times
25:45 I threw more tempet Tantrums it's it's
25:48 only now as a parent thinking back about
25:52 my children that I can see that maybe
25:54 raising me was not the easiest thing in
26:02 I was able to hire a private investigator
26:03 investigator
26:07 and she said I found your sister but um
26:15 well the only thing I can say is
26:18 professionally the less public I am the
26:22 more appropriate it is in my field I
26:24 don't want to be seen now I got a phone
26:27 call from a woman who asked who said to
26:30 me is margerie here and this was 11
26:32 years after she died and I thought GE
26:34 somebody must be going through some old
26:37 records and she said who are you I said
26:39 well I'm her mother
26:41 what's it about and she said well her
26:44 twin sister is looking for her and I I
26:47 fell to the floor and I was so angry because
26:49 because
26:52 when we were with the first child at the
26:53 agency and the second child at the
26:57 agency my husband said we love twins if
27:01 you have a pair of twins will take them
27:03 this is the day we brought her home and
27:06 here she is meeting her brother for the
27:10 first time her brother meeting her um
27:15 yeah March 1961 meeting Marge
27:19 she was very glum didn't smile a lot I
27:22 just thought okay our son was a happy
27:24 kid she was a glum kid there are serious
27:25 people and cheerful people and
27:32 she didn't have many friends she was
27:35 much of a loner we always had animals
27:42 she had her music
27:44 her first suicide attempt was when she
27:46 was 17
27:48 even when she was on medication she was
27:50 still depressed
27:53 she also had a guns from time to time
27:55 and would go target practice and that's
27:58 how she finally killed herself I called
28:00 the police in the neighborhood and I
28:02 told them that I think something
28:04 happened I think my daughter might have
28:36 and here they go and separate them of
28:38 all the Terrible Things terrible
28:41 terrible thing you know because I often
28:42 think what would it have been like if
28:44 they'd been raised together might it
28:48 have been better you see
28:52 was the Gloom caused because of the way
28:54 they were separated and Marge was alone
28:57 a month well by herself after never
28:59 being alone for that little brief lifetime
29:01 lifetime
29:05 I went to the cemetery
29:09 um because now I knew where she was
29:12 and I I can't
29:16 tell you the feeling to look at a stone
29:20 and see your birth date on a stone I had
29:22 this overwhelming
29:27 um desire to lie down on this
29:30 spot but I immediately went home and um
29:32 called my sister's mother and asked if I
29:37 could plant a UB Bush on there because
29:40 I needed something on there so that's me
29:51 how did this study come about
29:54 I tell you I would rather not want to
29:57 speak about it oh really why until we
30:00 have published it oh uh-huh when do you
30:02 plan to publish it I think we probably
30:05 want to come out with the data in about
30:30 even if the study had provided some serious
30:32 serious
30:35 um intelligence
30:37 about behavior and so forth even then it
30:40 would be bad but here nothing came of it
30:43 there's no study no anything
30:46 bunch of locked files
30:48 it's ridiculous I mean there there's
30:52 absolutely no justification for keeping
30:56 this data uh out of the hands of of
31:05 Robert hey it's Barry oh listen please
31:07 don't give it a second thought I'm good
31:09 I just wanted to give you a call just to
31:10 touch base about some of the issues we
31:12 were discussing earlier in the day about
31:19 no not on speaker just me we're seeing
31:21 to what extent we can get them access to
31:24 documents that were generated documents
31:27 and pictures and various other things
31:29 that relate directly to them but that
31:31 apparently they've never seen Viola
31:34 Bernard Foundation hereby gives any
31:36 interest which it may have in the papers
31:40 to Colombia so per this document she
31:41 kind of transferred any interest that
31:43 they did have to Colombia however she
31:45 did so in such a way that no one else should
31:47 should
31:49 would seem to have the ability to get
31:53 access to their own materials until 2021
31:54 well I think you're Ed of the term their
31:56 own materials is key you know I mean
31:59 really who owns this material I mean you
32:01 know how is it that you know her estate
32:04 or um or any educational institution
32:06 should be able to Trump the individual's
32:10 own interests in documents documenting
32:12 them the conduct that we're talking
32:16 about here had the most dramatic effect
32:21 on their lives it's one thing if
32:23 something like that is consensual and
32:25 everybody's well informed and agrees and
32:29 so on it's another thing if somebody
32:31 who's a health professional just sort of
32:37 according to the information we have
32:40 there are documents that were generated
32:41 as a result of the study that are
32:43 currently in the possession of Columbia
33:08 the study is long over these people are
33:10 a lot of them are deceased they're not
33:14 practicing any longer um and I think um
33:17 it's incumbent on all of us to take a
33:21 good hard honest look at what happened
33:24 and to the extent possible try to make
33:25 it right [Music]
33:27 [Music]
33:30 I'm aggravated that people are
33:34 continuing to deny and Stonewall and and
33:37 and not uh accept the responsibility for
33:38 what they did I'm not looking for
33:40 anything I'm just looking for someone to
33:42 say yeah that wasn't right here's your
33:44 stuff sorry about that you know we're
33:46 going to let those other twins know
33:53 hi hi how you doing Howard P hi Larry
33:56 Pearlman you nice to meet you too dou okay
34:11 okay it's been a while huh uh yeah 44 years
34:13 years
34:15 exactly yeah uh is that we were six when
34:19 when you uh yes yes I I actually pulled
34:21 out the testing I did on you guys uh
34:24 when you were exactly six
34:27 the way the study was set up is uh the
34:29 during the first year of life I think
34:32 that they had visits four times a year
34:33 and then it went down to twice a year
34:35 and then once a year so they had all
34:38 this material that they didn't really
34:40 know how to analyze it it wasn't a
34:42 sophisticated research operation by any
34:45 means uh in fact they didn't really know
34:47 what they were doing from a research
34:49 standpoint but they had this terrific
34:51 source of data because they had these
34:56 twins who were being separated and so so
34:58 I note that the there were 10 twins at
35:01 that time 10 sets or 10 10 Al together
35:03 five sets
35:06 you guys researching it is a job but for
35:09 the people that were in it that's it
35:10 it's you know it's people making
35:12 decisions about your life where you have
35:13 no control where they some of them
35:16 actively just lied to you outright lied
35:18 to my parents anyway so all this
35:20 information that they gathered and what
35:23 is locked up in these archives but what
35:24 what do you think is in there that
35:27 they're trying to keep from no there's
35:29 going there's going to be a lot of stuff
35:30 there there would have been home visits
35:33 and films and there'll be psychological testing
35:35 testing
35:37 I appreciate you acknowledging that we
35:39 were part of this study because people
35:42 said we weren't so oh that's see that's
35:44 just stupid well that's what it annoys
35:48 you no you see that's that I just don't
35:49 understand that I mean why would they
35:51 why Li
35:55 it got me thinking about
35:58 the damage that was done to the families
36:02 to the parents um who were kept in the
36:03 dark about the fact that they had
36:06 adopted Twins
36:08 and that was a piece that I had never
36:11 really thought through very much you
36:13 know that that made me sad it really
36:15 made me think how much of an injustice
36:18 has been done to to all of these twins
36:36 nice out
36:38 I always thought there was something
36:42 missing always and when I met my
36:45 brothers I felt that there was a piece
36:48 of me that had been completed and I
36:51 can't say that what I thought I was
36:53 missing my whole life was my brothers
36:54 cuz how do you come up with something
36:56 like that that's so far-fetched
36:59 but I can tell you that I felt complete
37:02 we were babies we were babies and they
37:04 had these psychologists they were going
37:07 from house to house looking at a baby
37:09 knowing that this Baby's being deprived
37:33 Eddie was the the um the most gregarious
37:35 the three of us
37:37 uh probably the best looking when if all
37:38 our weight was the same he was the best
37:41 looking I just remember his hand he had
37:43 this large hand they all they all have
37:45 these large hands you know and had this
37:48 soft large hand and he put his hand out
37:50 and he shook my hand and I just knew in
37:52 that moment it was just there was
37:54 something very very special about him
37:57 and we had a wedding at um the the swan
37:59 club we did very traditional and I got
38:02 pregnant literally I think right away
38:07 and we had Jamie and um you know she was
38:16 I I I loved him very deeply it was a
38:19 very rich relationship we had so much to
38:21 live for
38:25 and I think that as much as he loved his
38:28 brothers he had a hard time letting go
38:31 of those uh stolen 18 years of their
38:36 lives I think he
38:39 was devastated by it
38:42 I think that he
38:46 was traumatized and I don't think that
39:02 I I lost him through suicide um tragic
39:05 suicide he shot himself
39:07 um I found it hard to believe that he
39:10 did it I had to run a party the morning
39:14 after my brother died
39:16 I had staff walking around crying their
39:19 eyes out
39:26 that was the toughest thing I ever did
39:35 if not the greatest loss of my life one
39:38 of them but probably the greatest loss
39:40 of my life
39:42 what these people did were were not just
39:44 to those children it they it was to
39:47 those children most importantly it was
39:49 to those children but it was to every
39:51 single human being involved in that
39:54 child's life [Music]
40:40 break the disc before I even do anything
40:43 there we go
40:46 it says film sequence me date of visit 11068
40:48 11068
40:50 most of this film sequence is a power
40:54 being tested there Mrs David
40:56 the most prominent feature of projective
40:58 material was a pervasive sense of
41:00 sadness fears of deprivation and loss in
41:03 his immediate environment his sense of
41:06 the instability of his environment
41:08 unmodulated angry outbursts which began
41:10 toward the end of the first year with
41:12 headbanging and pounding on the floor
41:14 and continue in various forms throughout
41:16 the stady years
41:19 and expressed sense of loneliness
41:22 my strongest friend is me it kind of
41:24 bothers me that they did this and
41:27 nothing ever came of it or they never
41:30 used the data or did all this effort and
41:33 did all this stuff to people and
41:35 you know what did it do to help anyone's
41:54 oh no trucker is the puppy that's Sandy
41:57 right yes yes yes [Music]
42:04 [Music] okay
42:06 okay
42:10 so here's where we told the world that
42:17 there there must be a reason that I'm
42:19 finding this out now like why didn't I
42:22 find out 20 years ago you know does she
42:24 need my help or do I need her help you
42:26 know is there a reason for this cuz it
42:28 kind of seems odd that within 6 months
42:30 you know of having diagnosed with cancer
42:33 that here you have a twin like it's just
42:35 something seems like I don't even how to
42:37 put it something seems like we need each
42:40 other Anya
42:47 You' bring the spatula
42:50 no so we went to Louise wise because it
42:52 was when you got a Jewish baby if you
42:55 want to do it the right way go through
43:03 we went in and they said all right now
43:06 she's in a study if you don't want to to
43:09 be in the study let us know well at that
43:11 point if they had said if you could
43:20 yeah uh we when we uh brought you home
43:24 she were very small very tiny and very
43:28 clingy and for the for the longest time
43:31 you were extremely clingy you would let
43:35 go of Mom at all I about that one guys
43:38 never liked being alone and never will
43:41 like being alone so I I I think it'll be
43:43 very interesting to find out if your
43:46 sister was had the same personality the
43:50 same cling type I'm really very anxious
43:52 for her sister to know
43:55 exactly what's going on because she may
43:59 have have the same breast cancer and not
44:01 know it
44:02 if you're going to do a study at least
44:05 show people what the study proved you
44:08 know nature versus nurture okay so what happened
44:09 happened
44:11 that's what I wrote Of course is this
44:14 true do I have a twin an identical twin
44:16 oh my God I don't even remember writing
44:20 this too much to process felt shocked my
44:22 I had a stomach ache my head was
44:25 spinning it was surreal so it's so
44:28 strange it's real this was the day I
44:29 knew it was real that I have an
44:33 identical twin seeing that book I held
44:34 that book and I couldn't let go of that
44:38 book again I needed to find her that is
45:21 [Music] right
45:36 I love that movie roller ball
45:38 that's a great movie he asking me about
45:39 movies I must have just seen it I love
45:43 that movie 8277 63 so we were still
45:45 together at the end of a this is
45:48 probably two weeks before I was adopted
45:51 placement dates there you go when were
45:55 you 924 there it is they were a little
45:56 bit after me
46:10 that's pretty disturbing
46:12 said after adoption both boys show
46:14 Decline and something and then they
46:25 I was um graduated college in 85
46:27 this is stuff they reviewed and revised
46:29 in ' 86
46:31 so they're still messing around with the stuff
46:34 stuff
46:35 people sitting around dissecting your life
46:40 we felt that interaction between the
46:42 Twins was taking place by at least four
46:44 to 4 and 1/2 months there was some
46:47 interplay when they were together
46:48 increased personal interaction between
46:51 the Twins during the past month we see
46:53 the twins pending adoption into separate
46:55 homes as additional potential comp
46:57 applications for separation individuation
46:59 individuation
47:01 you know go back to how twins are bonded
47:03 and whatever you know I would assume it
47:05 somehow if you tear them apart it has to
47:07 have some effect it's just it's just
47:09 wrong what they did was really really
47:13 wrong um and the more you know stuff I
47:16 read the more wrong it kind of seems and
47:20 the more uh more upsetting it gets
47:22 for Douglas and Howard who were shifted
47:25 from hospital to one foster home then to
47:26 another then back to the first foster
47:29 home in the first half year prior to
47:31 their separate adoption the cwen may
47:33 have been the most stable human object
47:36 in their environment
47:39 usually Howard initiated contact with
47:41 his twin with Douglas then responding
47:43 this would involve them both in the
47:46 twinning interaction It's upsetting to
47:50 know that these people were able to um
47:52 affect our lives in a way that I didn't
47:56 even understand and uh
47:57 I don't know I don't know why I'm get
47:59 emotional about it but it's just it's
48:04 not really my nature but it's just uh um
48:05 it's just hard to I'm not really
48:06 introspective and when you start looking
48:08 you start going wow maybe if that didn't
48:11 happen you know maybe some of the the
48:14 hard spots wouldn't have been hard I
48:49 if this was early enough in the very early
48:50 early
48:53 uh birth right after birth
48:56 then it was advantageous for them to
49:00 have their own family uhhuh if however
49:03 what was known as the twinning reaction
49:05 an attachment
49:09 between the two twins the two children
49:11 uhhuh had had time to develop in the
49:15 early months then we were opposed to it
49:17 because then we would be traumatically
49:21 separating those who had a opportunity
49:34 my reaction to that is that's a bunch of
49:43 now I understand we're talking about an
49:46 eminent psychologist
49:49 um but we also may be talking about a
49:52 liar I thought it was a Nazi experiment
49:54 that they had done I thought it was
49:56 Dreadful the most awful thing I had ever
49:57 heard they didn't give a damn for
50:00 anybody only what they were doing their
50:03 work these are unconscionable people
50:08 they separated us after 3 months
50:10 so if they really truly believe this
50:13 then why Place us together in one Crib
50:18 in foster care I think it was uh not
50:20 only a crime but a sin who do you think
50:22 you are that you could play God like
50:24 that if they're twins they're meant to
50:26 be together they knew the effect had
50:28 happen they knew we' been together for
50:30 for long enough for it to happen and
50:32 they didn't know about anyway
50:36 it's to me I'm Ill by that I'm made ill
50:39 by that she's
50:42 it's to me it's fraud
50:44 he stole
50:48 uh a childhood on some levels
50:51 not that uh I wouldn't trade my life for
50:53 anything but
50:56 he can't uh give back you can't get that back
