This content explores the multifaceted nature of social engineering, highlighting its psychological manipulation tactics, diverse attack vectors (both online and offline), and the critical importance of human awareness and vigilance in cybersecurity.
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In late 2024, a CEO of a prominent cloud security startup valued at $12 million was targeted in a
sophisticated deep fake voice scam. Attackers used artificial intelligence to clone the CEO's voice,
creating a convincing imitation. They sent voice messages to several employees posing
as the CEO and urged them to disclose their login credentials. The deception was nearly
flawless. However, the attackers overlooked one detail. The CEO's public speaking voice differs
from his conversational everyday tone. This discrepancy raised suspicions across
the employees ultimately preventing the breach. And how lucky was that
to talk more about social engineering today. Welcome back to Unlocked 403, your favorite cyber
security podcast. I'm Becks, your host. And today with me I have a software senior. I have a senior
software engineer from ESET. Alena welcome. Can I call you Alinka or Yeah, that's perfect. Or you
can do Alli. Alli. Okay, let's do that. That works best in English. Okay, cool. Let's do that. How
long have you been an engineer and what brought you to cyber security? Well, specifically in in
ESET, I have been for 5 years now almost. Okay. Uh but I have been a coder ever since I was like
a teen. I started in a different company and so on. I studied this. So cool. Yeah. And why cyber
security in specific? So I grew up around someone who is very into uh cyber security. Okay. Uh so uh
even like when I was younger, I was fascinated by like hearing about malware and things like that,
but I was never into reverse engineering. Mhm. when I went to work and so on, I decided to just
go normally, you know, normal software houses and stuff like that. But then when I decided to change
jobs and I found out that by sheer miracle and and luck, uh was at a time looking for someone
with my specialty. Mhm. So I was like, I can tell that I'm probably overqualified for it,
but let me try. Why not? So I did. I got in and then I got much more into it when I started to do
uh volunteering. And what kind of volunteering do you do? Uh I do uh teaching of of future teachers
or current teachers, children etc. in terms of how to be safe online. So that kind of got me into
majority of the topics. Mhm. Of course I am not uh a researcher or something like that. Never will
be, never want to be. Frankly, I'm more I I would be more tempted to be a pentester. Oh, that's
cool. Although it I think it takes a very specific set of skills to do that. I have a special set of
skills. It's from the movie. Okay. Which movie? Liam Niss. The the one where the is going to
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have a very particular set of skills. Anyways, with a special set of skills.
You mentioned that you do volunteering and that got you into multiple different topics,
but one of them and that's what we're going to focus on today is social engineering and you
previously mentioned that you're fairly interested in that. Um why? Well, social engineering for me
uh is interesting from the point of view that it targets psychology and I have been always
interested in psychology and how people behave in certain situations, how they act, how they make
choices, right? And that's the bread and butter of social engineering. They want to know what you
will do and force you to do what they want. So it's manipulation at its core. Whether it is you
know our compassion, our loneliness, our need to connect with people, our ego frankly uh all these
things can be misused in social engineering. major part of what you can do with social engineering
is that you can gather information and get extra information that you otherwise wouldn't get. So
that in itself provides a very good base for other attacks even the technical ones. Mhm. Because if
I know that you use you are the type of person who would use a specific software for instance, I
might want to use that against you. If I know that you seem to be a type of person who doesn't really
do messenger or like chat applications, but you do email a lot, then maybe emailing you something
would work better, right? And of course, there's the aspect that people are doing what they want
to do. We can tell them what they should be doing and they might not. Which what do you mean exactly
like in in terms of prevention or Yes. So uh with social engineering no one can fix it for you.
We can we can educate you. We can give you tools that might help you but in the end if you decide
to click on something you clicked on it not it's not your fault in the sense of of of oh you wanted
this no but it but we cannot prevent you from doing your behavior. No one can. Yes. But having a
good security solution. Of course there there are things in which technology can help you but there
is the aspect of Yeah. They can't correct your behavior. Exactly. Like if if you do not want to
do the preventive measures and things like that, no one can force you to. You also mentioned once
when we talked before this that there is offline and online social engineering. Can you tell me the
difference? Well, the most most clear difference would be one is online, one is offline in the
sense that one happens in the digital world and one happens in our normal world we walk in. So,
as an example of what could offline social engineering pertain is if I'm trying to get
to a building to which I do not have access, I can use social engineering such as tailgating to try
to get in. You know, I just look like I belong. I behave like I belong. I strike up a conversation
with someone who does have the badge to get in. Yeah. And then just get in with them. Or you carry
something. I heard that's also a good Yes. Yes. Carrying things or pretending to be a repairman or
uh carrying flowers for someone, deliveries, that also works. A lot of social engineering is to a
degree also acting whether it is digitally acting or in person. Yeah. Right. So yes,
getting to getting to a place it's very easy to find a lie that would get you in. One time we uh
we had one of our researchers Rigard here and we talked about uh an attack on a power plant and I
was like but how does one get inside such a power plant? It's like through the front door. Yeah. Uh
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there's also the aspect of you sometimes don't need to get in to get
something in. Okay. Elaborate. Very popular very popular things like you know there is a a disc
uh a USB or something on the parking lot. You just make sure it has very interesting title on it.
Okay. I've heard of one where people came into a smoking area outside of a office. Okay. M and they
were giving out vapes, free vapes to like try try them out. Except these vapes were not charged. So,
but you know, you just go charge it, you can try it and it's fine. Mhm. And where
do you think people normally charge devices that tends to be charged through USB at work? Well,
there are computers of course. Of course, they plugged it in and there we go. Because people
usually don't think of the devices that are just charging that are not even used for a computer.
Mhm. In any way, but they're just charging. Yeah. But while they still have access to the software,
don't they? Absolutely. Wow. Which is why it's so good to have those like extension cords or such
that have USB ports directly. You can just plug it in there instead of your laptop. I think a lot
of the new ones now have those actually. Yeah. Yeah. Compared to that digitally,
while it can be very similar in terms of that I strike up a conversation with you, whether
it is through email or some chat applications, through social media, etc., Mhm. It also could
be uh that I send you content that is targeted at you and I'm trying to trick you to click on
something for instance. So you send me a private message with something and I send you email,
I send you a private message. I if I if I get your phone number, I can send you SMS and that's where
you get all the like fishing, wishing, smishing, all the ishings. Yeah. Yeah. Mom, I'm in trouble.
I need help. Oh yes. That's a very common one. Oh yes. And uh especially when you press towards the
compassion and fear especially with parents that is a powerful tool. Speaking of that,
what are the most common tactics? Well, you can do like it depends on what you are trying to achieve,
right? Mhm. As with most malware and and attacks and cyber security issues, usually the goal is
money, but it can be direct or indirect, right? Sometimes you want to get money by obtaining more
information in which case you can then sell them or use them for further attacks that can get you
the money or you can directly try to obtain money. Fishing usually is to get either your credentials
to something or to get the money directly, right? But you can also do things like impersonation and
you're trying to use information about Yeah. for instance, but also I can basically if I'm trying
to get to a company, if I do social engineering on one of their employees first, I can then use
that information that I got and anything I managed to get from that to then seem much more believable
in my actual attack at the company. Right. So, you would use those details and your email or whatever
it is. Yes. Exactly. And and make it sound very very believable that way, right? even if it
contains things that normally I would not have access to on in public right um in in terms of
that people usually do a lot of a lot of scraping of publicly available information social media of
uh anything you might have done because as we all know the internet is forever whatever you did when
you were five who knows maybe it's there if your parents were very active boy yeah and that's why
I always tell parents please stop and this is one of the reasons Yeah. But there is also the aspects
that kind of prey on on other information. So instead of trying to scrape as much about you as
they can, they try they instead try to contact you. Mhm. And get the information that way.
Whether it is trying to befriend you or trying to romance you. Can we talk about romance scams for a
second? Absolutely. I wouldn't say that it was as popular as it is now. Mhm. I feel like part of it
might be also the effect of pandemic because a lot of people experienced a lot of loneliness. True.
And a lot of separation. So a lot of the getting to know people moved online and that usually meant
that a lot of people were not as skilled with doing so safely online. M so romance scams in
general uh work on the principle that I pretend to be someone who is interested in you and and I
pretend to be someone who you would like. So often times the the people who do romance scams go for
some of the very popular tropes. Let's say I am a soldier who is uh who needs to get home but I
need some money because I am going prematurely and there is issues with getting the money fast enough
through the military right or my favorite one I am an astronaut but to get home I need money actually
yes that was on someone I believe so yes wow um then there's also the standard ones that pray on
on compassion. So I have a a family member, a child, a friend, a dog, a cat who is very
sick and I do not have money for the procedures that are needed. So after you kind of establish
some sort of relationship already, you can start asking these favors that are monetary. Yeah. And
you start getting money. You pray on vulnerability and loneliness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. which is rather
rather devious and just evil. There's another one that involves the sort of vulnerability of people
like the deep vulnerability and that is extortion. Yes, it it's a vulnerability and it's also the
fact that still in many places talking openly about pornography, about sex is sort of a taboo.
Yeah. Right. And and that feeds into this scam. Mhm. Extortion in itself is usually mostly the
the term is mostly used in context of emails that you get. One could say spam that you get and that
claims that they have uh gotten access to your computer and to your webcam and they have created
videos of you while you were watching pornographic content. Mhm. And of course while also having
access to the content. Mhm. Now for a lot of people they might look at this im immediately
like that's just frankly not possible. Yeah. But especially with younger people who are who still
do not know enough. They don't talk about it much. Especially not with parents or or people
who could help them in the situation because they do not want to admit that they went on a page that
might be legal only past 18 years old. Right. Um so those tend to more believe the fact that oh
no someone got into my thing and oh no they they will send it to all my friends and my teachers and
my parents I will be in trouble. And the reason why this uh can work is that they do not ask for
extortion amount of money. It's not insignificant. So what are we talking a couple hundred or it can
be it can be anything from from couple hundreds to like thousand from what I've seen like random
ones but it's not crazy amount is amount that a p person might be able to put together and pay
of course they do not have your videos they do not have anything recently uh I personally got
one that was claiming that they put Pegasus on my computer you know the thing that's for mobile
devices. Yeah. But it's on my computer. Oh, nice. Yay. Just to um explain to our viewers, Pegasus is
a very famous spyware. Yes. It's very it's very famous spyware that is in in its technicality,
it can be zero click. Yeah. So, it can get to a device without interaction from a user, but
it's also its usage tends to be very pricey and certainly not a random bop from the neighborhood.
probably won't have access to it. Yeah. Um and as I said with like the the the extortion,
they pray on the fact that you will rather pay than risk it. And because they can send this to
just millions of people in one go. Absolutely. They don't need everyone to do that. They need
what 1%.1% of people to do it and they are rich. The thing is though with these they don't have it.
you can just ignore it. Different thing is which sometimes happens these days what can be related
to again the same topic of of of intimacy deep fakes. Yeah. But also people who misuse the fact
that again more often young people but not only can be you know on dating apps or in internet
conversation persuaded to send uh perhaps less than pictures. Yeah. Right. And of course once
they do have those they can try to blackmail you with them. So and deep fakes come into it as well
because even though you never created them if they are believable enough technically they could try
to blackmail you with them. Yeah. And then is then there is the point of like would would the people
around me believe me that I didn't do it. Mhm. You know um that is a little bit different thing but
uh praise on very same aspect which is often times people will not go to get help from
authorities or other people when it pertains to topics of intimacy of sex of pornography of you
know because often times they feel that they are doing something bad or something they even though
they are absolutely not but there is there is that underlying feeling for a lot of people And usually
those are the victims in the end. It's a lot of shame, I think. Yes. Exactly. It's shame. It's
guilt. Like, oh, I wasn't careful enough while doing this. Exactly. It's the same is the same
prison. Kids don't go to their parents saying I was contacted by a predator. Yes. Exactly.
It's the same is the same feeling. Yeah. Exactly. Have you ever been targeted by anything like this?
Uh targeted in the sense of of someone actually trying to like blackmail you with something? No.
I did get a couple couple extortion emails. What I usually do is I take a screenshot of them and put
them into the presentation when I that I then show people. Ah is there anything that technology can
do to prevent such attacks? Of course with things like fishing for instance there are AVs that that
gather information about already known fishing websites and can try to stop you from going to
one. Yes. Um same applies to you know there can be potentially filtering of calls from again known
fishing or wishing in this case numbers. Mhm. Um so technology can help you in the terms that
uh that they take the knowledge of already known problematic things so websites numbers uh
applications etc and prevent you from interacting with them or at least you know tell you to that
you might not want to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and they can point out red some of the red flags.
So for instance, good good example of this is that in some emails or in some companies they have the
little information that this email came from out of the network that is very like popping out for
you. So you are automatically more aware of the fact oh this could even if this is pretending to
be from my company it's not. Mhm. Right. So, so there are unless they're unless they're
your own pen testers. I mean, they try to trick you. I mean, that's fine because your behavior
that in for pentesters should be the same as for attackers. But in the end, you are the one doing
the final decision with whom or what you interact. Yeah. If you even against all best advice decide
to I really want to go to this particular site and put my username and password into it,
we can't stop you. Lovely. I would love to but we can't. What exactly are the techniques to get to
know a person without them knowing? Well, there is quite few of things you can do. Mhm. Googling
um going to to social media especially if they are public going to social media of their closed ones.
Uh then also for instance uh you know information about uh ownership of buildings or apartments is
very yes is very helpful. Um and a lot of that is public information as well. Yes. Uh same goes
with uh any sort of uh information about owners of companies or you know uh having any sort of uh
own business. Usually these informations are to a degree as well public as well. Yeah, true. Well,
it's funny you asked that though. Why? Maybe, just maybe, I took the little libert liberty
of looking you up. Oh Jesus. So, first I will I will put out a little disclaimer, right? So,
before working in this company, we have never met, right? No. And actually before this filming,
we only had a a short call and I think maybe one interaction before that. Yes. And can
you confirm that you didn't share with me any sort of personal information during those? No,
I'm getting nervous. I'm surprised. Did you? So, so there is no way that for instance I could
have gone to same university as you. You could have or shared the same class with you at some
point. Possibly not because you say what that you studied something. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So So no. So
it's rather interesting that I have this this little note here from you. Oh. From from 2020
that says that you owe me uh hot chocolate and it there's your signature and all. Ah that is
my signature. Hey. So, can you confirm that it's indeed your signature? At that time, it was still
my signature. Yes. Well, I guess then you owe me hot chocolate. But of course, that's not You
can arrange that. That's of course not the only thing I found. But I decided that that's that's
the extent I will go to misuse the information I found. Thank you. Here we go. Okay. There is a uh
some information that I did and while you read I will I will tell the audience uh what limitations
I put on myself while doing so. First of all doing this is not my day job in any shape or form. Sure.
Yes. It looks like anything. I didn't try to infiltrate any of your private social media.
So I didn't make any fake accounts. I had the public view of things in the sense that I have
an account but that's it. I didn't try to message any of your friends, your close ones. I messaged
no one to get additional information. So all this was gathered from two social media accounts. Two
two sorry two social media platforms. Platforms. Yes. Um this is this is definitely not on on my
Yes. Google. Okay. Just googling a lot. Yeah. and Katastaster. So, of course, information
about uh about locations and who owns what. I can tell you a lot of this information is correct,
but I do see some that is not. Ooh, you got quite a lot of information on my um on my husband. Yes.
And including his hobbies. His hobbies are spot on actually. It's awesome. I know, actually. Um,
yeah, this is funny. Oh, you got my cousins. Yes. You didn't get all of them, though. I, as I said,
prior to this, I decided to just not go over one A4. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, at some point,
I was like, I feel like to demonstrate the point is enough if I do some cousins on one side and
some of the on the other, but then I was like, I know there are more cousins. Mhm. I just don't
want to spend more time on this. I am curious because there is one section. So I used to um
one of my previous things that I did before cyber security and ESET and this whole communications
thing is I used to be a translator. Yes. And I see that you found the books that I've translated.
Yes. Um how would one misuse that? So let's say that I want to use it to establish contact with
you and perhaps get your phone number. Mhm. or your uh email address that is not a company one of
course because then if I have your email address I or phone number I can use that to search for
more information even without directly using it right yes so let's say that I would pretend to
be a high school student who is planning to go into translation who is uh you know perhaps on
a on a high school that is focused on languages um I would write the publisher or the publisher
of the translation rather. And I would say that uh I decided to use this book because it's one of
my favorite ones. Of course, I would read it before um to use it as my uh Please don't as
that bad. Yeah. Uh I would use it as my uh you know project, my end of the school project to
analyze the translation. But for that I would re I could really use uh you know consultation with
the original translator. Would it be possible to maybe get the uh maybe get some phone that
I can cater on or or email please? Then we can go to did any of your passwords leak? Did did
anything tie to your phone number that I didn't find before? Once I have even more information
then I can very easily actually contact you. I can try to agree on a meeting with you,
which means get you to a specific location if I need to. Uh then I can, you know, as a thank you,
I can give you a nice little thing that goes into a USB board and so on and so forth. So
there there's of course I can also given the other information I know I could use your email
address to send you a very well aimed invite or anything else you might want to click on or you
know a a charity thing for a cause you might be interested in and you might want to give me
money. Okay. I have a question. You have the start of a relationship between me and and my partner my
husband. It is based on speculation. Yes. of interaction. Yes. Um can you elaborate out of
curiosity? Is it correct? Uh yes it is with it is within that time frame. Yes. So this one because
again not only you have not that much information online but also a lot of people around you don't
have that much information that's also online. That's very good. Yes. Uh, but of course if one
were to look at your husband's Instagram and kind of go back and look at the pictures between us,
it's Jesus. Okay. So, I I went backwards on on his pictures and I checked which ones you liked
and like hearted and because there was absolutely no interaction from you with his pictures before a
certain point and there was interaction on I think every picture from that point on. Yeah, that kind
of track. Mhm. Okay. Okay. This is interesting. Where does one find the date of birth of one's
parents? I found a lot of people from your family very fast. There is a lot of them. Not all of
them might be my family. It's it's it pretty common um I know surname that but let's just
say because they all kind of friend each other and all. Yeah, they do. There is a lot of there,
right? Yeah. So originally I because I I first thing I found was that the fact that you have
a brother. I do. Yes. I knew that from the one of the hobby things. My hobby. Yes. Cuz you mentioned
it in a certain article that a conversation that you had with someone else. Article. Mhm.
When you were around 15year-old. Why? I will tell you often. Okay. Please do. Yes. What? Uh,
you mentioned that you have a brother there. Hold on. What kind of conversation? Tell me. We'll Oh,
we'll bleep it out. Okay, fine. Uh, in your in in your um as one of the of the
quite a long time ago. Quite a long time ago. Still still online. Yep. Anyways, I found out
that you you're a brother and originally actually thought one of your cousins is your brother.
Okay. At the same time, I went kind of backwards from who I thought is your brother, but I found
I got to address for his parents, but that was different. I was like, "Okay." And then I looked
up that address of who lives there, looked for correct surname, and I found your parents. Mhm.
So, I was like, "Okay, so these are that parents, these are these." And in the meantime, I already
had these like groups of of cousins. I was like, "Okay, these are siblings for sure. These are
siblings for sure. These might be Oh, these are cousins with these but not with these. Cool. So,
I built a dated I built a whole family tree. Yeah. Wow. Date and place of Well, place of birth is not
correct. Ooh. Uh date is correct. Yeah. The the place was speculation. Yeah. Yeah. Made a name you
got correct. Also, the the nickname that I used to use when I was younger. Okay. Uh marital status,
yes. Religion, yes. interests. Some of them are still um accurate and some some not anymore. Uh
high school uh one of the other possibilities is correct. Uh university. Yeah. Preceded by a
bachelor's. So I guess masters and bachelors from the same university. Yeah. Uh the books
translated. Yes. Both of them correct. Uh family. Yes. Wedding place is interesting. Mhm. H how does
one get that? So I found a picture from your wedding. This city or village was tagged the
exact location not. But then I Googled possible locations for them even that I figured out it's
church. Mhm. And from there I compared pictures like the background. Yeah. Yeah. Most of the
information you have a husband and relatives thing here. Most of the info on my husband is correct.
occupation, interests, it's all in there. And then uh the relatives part is for me quite uh uh yeah,
that's the scary part for me cuz you know when it comes to one's own protection, I mean you you you
kind of take that into your own hands, but then yeah, who writes what about you and who posts
what about you and and and vice versa. That's that's and the thing is they don't even have to
tag you in any way. No, but to be fair, I had to scroll through a lot and a lot and a lot of posts
from your mother. Oh, I'm sorry. I mean, I went through also other of your relatives, so you know,
and also your your husband's relatives. I went through so many profiles. Oh, boy. To history. Who
was what was the most shocking thing that you that you found? Oh, and we can we can be put out as
well. I mean, I was shocked by the by the thing. Not in a bad way. Just 11 years ago. Just by the
way, 11 years ago. Yeah. That was just like, huh? Okay. That wasn't expected, was it? Yeah. Also,
the other language you studied. Mhm. That was kind of like, huh? Out of left field a little bit. And
there's one more that I can speak. I believe that. And I think you have it on LinkedIn actually.
LinkedIn is a great three social networks then because I started on LinkedIn. I only use the
information that you your name and you're doing this podcast. That was all I started with. Even if
I knew something other than that, I didn't put it in unless I found the proof of that. But I tried
to mark the ones where I was like, okay, I didn't find any definitive source for that. Mhm. So it's
just a guesstimate. Okay. Can I move on, please? Yes. Yeah. Um, let's get back to my questions.
Sure. Uh, yeah. I think I broke her a little bit. A little bit. What are some of the red flags that
I should look out for? Apart from handing me an A4 for looking for a face. Yes, this might be a red
flag. Um, one of the big things is if someone is claiming repeatedly in every other sentence that,
"Oh, I'm not a scam artist. I'm not trying to scam you." Oh, so obvious. It's It probably is.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Also, if a person you don't know keeps claiming that you have to trust them, that
might be a red flag cuz trust is earned. Yeah. Um, another ones in terms of the profiles is if
they have absolutely nothing in common with you. People sometimes add people who they don't know in
your life and it's a good policy to not do that. Yeah. Like if you haven't had the contact with
this person enough before to know who they are, you are risking. Mhm. There is also the aspect of
uh if it feels weird that this person now suddenly has social media and you do actually know them,
contact them through other means. Mhm. This also applies to when they write you, when they call you
in a panic situation, if they are reaching out through messenger, you call them. Uh basically
something that requires ideally a different mode of operation. Mhm. Because usually you can assume
that they did not steal the phone, they are faking it. Okay. So if you reach that same device other
in other means, chances are you can reach the actual person. Yeah, also another thing is in
terms of like email communication and so on. It used to be that check for like grammar and
stuff but with AI that's getting better and better sophisticated. Uh so can't be really trusted that
much. One thing is that even if the translation seems okay you can often times see the fact that
it is a translation. Oh yeah absolutely because of the phrases that are common in English for
instance but not in another language. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. And and vice versa. Yeah. Exactly. Um,
if it is that it's trying to get you to give your money to certain charity or whatever, you
can check that charity. Mind you, that page can be faked. So, checking up also like history of it,
googling up whatever they're trying to offer you. Like doing these things for research is a good
good thing to do. But also keep in mind that if it is really well done scam, they might have faked
that as well. You could see that in in Omani. They made fake apps but also made a fake thing.
Evaluating these apps is perfectly fine. Yeah, there's so much more that we could cover here.
Like there's millions and millions of things, but if you had to like pull it into just a couple of
things that you wish people knew about social engineering so that they are better prepared
to to tackle these attacks, what would be like the top let's say five things that people should know?
So first thing I would say is if it sounds too good it's probably fake. Whether it is ehops
or offers or uh the person who is writing you on LinkedIn that they have a this absolutely perfect
job offer. Yeah. You know uh when it comes to people if you can double check. Mhm. So
contact them other ways. Um don't really trust strangers assume in general like in general.
Yeah. Don't we teach that to kids? I mean yes don't trust strangers but also in the sense that
um assume that there might be a scam by default and only if proven otherwise assume there is not.
Then I would say um in terms of emails and things like that, if someone is telling you that they
have access to your computer, it's usually safe to safe to assume they don't because if they did,
why wouldn't they instead instead do ransomware or something else that they can get money from
immediately or just get your credentials? They wouldn't go blackmailing you into into giving
them 200. Yeah. Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. The last one is do not feel like you
have to be in it alone. It's not a shame to be scammed. Like it's bad people doing it. Exactly.
Exactly. It's not your fault in the sense that that you are in you should be ashamed of it. No,
it it can happen. It can happen to the best of us. Clearly, it absolutely can. Yeah. And and the best
thing is to to try to be open with it and try to get help of people who might know what to do and
also like keep some at least some AB please have a good security solution is a good is a is a is a
good way to stay safe. As I said, there's so much more we could talk about, but unfortunately I'm
going to have to cut it off right here. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for for
talking to me and thank you for educating us and for almost scamming me and hopefully not
scamming me in the future. I will get you that hot chocolate. I promise. Thank you again for
being here. Thank you for for talking to me and and yeah, see you next time. Well, until we talk
again. Until we talk. Thank you. And to everyone, I thank you for watching or listening depending
on on which platform you have interacted with us. Um, we'll see you next time and stay safe.
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