0:03 You are the single most requested guest.
0:05 And let me tell you, this has not been
0:07 easy cuz we went to some hard places,
0:09 but I don't think we'll ever talk about
0:11 anything more important than this cuz
0:13 it's not fear that gets in the way of us
0:15 being brave with our lives and our work.
0:17 [music] It's the armor that we reach for
0:19 to self-protect when we're afraid and
0:21 how [music] that armor moves us away
0:24 from love, connection, and our values.
0:26 And [music] the hardest work is being
0:28 aware of what is my armor when I'm
0:31 afraid. Is that automatic? Oh, no, it's
0:32 a training. So, let's start with that,
0:34 then. Brené Brown is an icon whose
0:36 world-leading research in shame,
0:38 vulnerability, and connection
0:39 >> has inspired [music] companies like
0:41 Pixar, Google, and the US Special Forces
0:43 >> to build stronger leaders and help the
0:45 everyday person unlock their full potential.
0:46 potential.
0:49 Ready? Is vulnerability important?
0:50 >> It is if we want to be brave with our
0:52 lives, but we were raised to believe
0:53 that vulnerability is weakness.
0:53 >> [music]
0:55 >> Like in my family, we were allowed
0:57 anger, but sad was not an option. You
0:59 needed to be tough. So, when I get
1:01 scared, when I [music] feel anxious,
1:03 disappointed, I'm just angry. And so,
1:04 when you're raised without
1:05 vulnerability, it'll put you in
1:07 jeopardy. Like you want to know what
1:10 vulnerability is? Joy. Joy is so
1:12 vulnerable [music] that people choose to
1:14 live disappointed rather than to get
1:16 excited about something and risk getting
1:18 sucker punched by disappointment. Like
1:19 there is no courage without
1:21 vulnerability because courage is the
1:23 willingness to show up and be all in
1:25 when you cannot predict the outcome.
1:26 Wow, I've never thought about that
1:29 before. But you can develop skills. Like
1:30 it's skills, that's courage?
1:33 >> Yes. We've taken 165,000
1:35 people through this work. That included
1:36 how to build trust.
1:38 >> And I've heard about your marble jar
1:40 theory. Could you explain to me what
1:41 your marble jar You look at how excited
1:43 you are. I know.
1:45 So, this is how we teach trust to the
1:47 most senior leaders in Fortune [music]
1:50 100 companies. It's awesome.
1:52 I see messages all the time in the
1:54 comment section that some of you didn't
1:55 realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you
1:57 could do me a favor and double-check if
1:58 you're a subscriber to this channel,
2:00 that would be tremendously appreciated.
2:02 It is the simple, it's the free thing
2:03 that anybody that watches this show
2:05 frequently can do to help us here to
2:06 keep everything going in this show in
2:08 the trajectory it's on. So, please do
2:10 double-check if you subscribed and uh
2:12 thank you so much because in a strange
2:14 way you are you're part of our history
2:15 and you're on this journey with us and I
2:17 appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you.
2:18 you. >> [music]
2:20 >> [music] [singing]
2:21 [singing] >> Brené.
2:25 In order to um understand all the work
2:27 that you have done and the perspective
2:28 that you have on the world and also who
2:31 you are as a anomaly in many respects, I
2:32 think it's probably important that I
2:34 understand your earliest context.
2:36 Where you've come from, what shaped you.
2:37 I'm stuck on a
2:40 Am I a Am I an anomaly? I think of
2:41 course you're an anomaly.
2:43 Of course you're an anomaly. It that
2:45 that should be of no surprise to you.
2:46 I mean, if you look at your outcomes,
2:48 your outcomes are anomalous.
2:49 So, one would assume that there's some form
2:50 form >> [snorts]
2:51 >> [snorts]
2:54 >> something that made you an anomaly.
2:58 I would say that
3:01 I'm a fifth-generation Texan. Mhm. I
3:03 I
3:06 came from a fair amount of dysfunction.
3:08 dysfunction.
3:11 Parents doing the best they could
3:13 with what they knew.
3:16 Both coming from really, really, really
3:19 tough upbringings that included, you know,
3:20 know, poverty,
3:21 poverty,
3:24 addiction. And so, probably a lot of the
3:25 stereotypes you would think about
3:28 fifth-generation Texan, tough, don't
3:31 cry, we were allowed a very small
3:34 continuum of emotions were approval, you
3:36 know, were approved, which were pissed off
3:37 off
3:40 or okay. Like anger was okay, but no,
3:42 you know, couldn't be sad, really. Or
3:44 vulnerability was not a thing.
3:46 Vulnerability was weakness and scary and
3:48 put you in jeopardy.
3:51 I felt like a real outsider at home and
3:52 in school.
3:55 But I was really good at reading people,
3:58 reading situations. I think my I I think
4:00 a therapist somewhere along the way said
4:02 Yes, that's hypervigilance. Mhm. You're hypervigilant.
4:04 hypervigilant.
4:05 You know, I can see everything around me
4:06 and everything that's going on. I can
4:08 connect things very quickly that other
4:10 people don't see.
4:11 And there was laughter
4:16 but there was a
4:19 ton of unpredictability.
4:21 I was going to say, isn't that typically
4:22 what creates hypervigilance is some kind of
4:24 of
4:27 need to be that aware when you're young? Yeah.
4:28 Yeah.
4:30 Yeah, I mean, I think yes.
4:32 Being fun-loving
4:34 was very valued in my family and being
4:37 tough. These were the values. These are
4:40 These are on the parental scorecard.
4:42 Mhm. This is what got you an A. If
4:44 you're fun, easy,
4:45 easy,
4:47 you can, you know, shoot straight, spit
4:49 far, fish well,
4:52 like really, drive fast. And so, those
4:54 things were very valued.
4:57 Athleticism was very valued. Um
5:09 But those fun things could turn really
5:11 hard very quickly.
5:13 There was a big pause there. 4-second
5:13 pause as you
5:15 >> Yeah, I could just picture it. Like it's
5:17 fun until
5:19 it's fun until you've got a parent
5:21 ejected from a game
5:23 for being so hard.
5:24 And that was your father?
5:26 >> Yeah. How he is really hard, then, if he
5:28 was ejected from a game. Oh, yeah.
5:30 Yeah, yeah.
5:31 There's a photo I saw of you and your
5:33 siblings where you're clutching your siblings.
5:34 siblings.
5:36 And I think you referred to it as you
5:37 could see there was a certain fear in
5:38 your eyes. Do you Do you know the photo
5:41 I'm referring to? Am I on a couch?
5:41 You're on a couch, is that
5:44 >> Like a yellow velour couch like from the '70s?
5:44 '70s?
5:46 >> Yes. Yeah.
5:48 I think about that picture. I like that
5:50 picture, but there is definitely I
5:52 definitely had a protector role as the
5:54 oldest. I mean, code name Sister
5:56 Superior. It was jokingly, but it wasn't
5:59 joking. Like if things got hard between
6:00 my parents and they would get involved
6:03 till fights, I would go get all my
6:05 siblings, put them in my room.
6:06 I'd go downstairs and handle it, you
6:07 know, like I was definitely the
6:10 protector. Physically volatile fights?
6:13 Um on occasion, but more emotionally
6:15 volatile. Screaming and shouting?
6:18 >> yeah. Same with my parents. Yeah, just
6:20 loud. As a background in my whole house
6:21 for my whole childhood was just screaming.
6:23 screaming.
6:24 There was a Yeah, we had a lot of
6:26 screaming and there's a certain Like if
6:28 you grew up with screaming, hearing
6:30 screaming through a wall, Mhm.
6:31 Mhm.
6:32 you [clears throat] know that sound.
6:33 >> Mhm. Do you know that sound?
6:34 >> Mhm, of course, yeah. Oh my god, it's my
6:36 whole childhood. Yeah.
6:37 >> Seven nights a week of screaming. Yeah.
6:40 And so, yeah, I'm sorry because I don't
6:42 like to hear that about your childhood
6:43 and I don't like to know that about my
6:44 childhood, but there was a lot of
6:48 screaming. And so, I think hypervigilant,
6:54 protective, responsible,
6:56 responsible,
7:00 with a dose of
7:03 be very [ __ ] careful because
7:05 because
7:11 And and how did that change your model
7:13 of love as a young person? It must have
7:15 been cuz I mean, I obviously feel the
7:17 same way about about my situation and um
7:19 I think the lesson I learned was that
7:20 love was like a prison cuz it was my mom
7:22 doing the shouting and my dad was the
7:24 prisoner and he wouldn't respond.
7:26 So, this you got a woman shouting at him
7:28 for 6, 7 hours a day and him sat there
7:29 like he's a like
7:32 inanimate object looking at the screen.
7:33 And I remember thinking, "Oh, okay. So,
7:35 if I get in a relationship when I'm
7:37 older, then I'm going to be a prisoner
7:39 to a woman. Okay."
7:41 Doesn't sound Doesn't sound appealing.
7:42 And if he moved to a different room,
7:45 she'd follow him. So,
7:46 I avoided relationships like the [ __ ] plague.
7:49 plague.
7:50 I did well until about 27. >> [clears throat]
7:51 >> [clears throat]
7:53 >> And then what?
7:55 And then someone got over the wall and
7:57 corrected to some of the evidence.
7:59 They got over the wall?
8:00 >> over the wall somehow.
8:03 Yeah, Steve got over the wall. Damn it.
8:04 Well, that's your part of not me, just
8:05 for context.
8:06 >> No, not Yeah, NOT YOU. >> [laughter]
8:07 >> [laughter]
8:09 >> ALTHOUGH YOU'RE DOING A HELL OF A JOB
8:11 RIGHT NOW. Um you're like you've crossed
8:14 the piranha-filled moat that I like. Um
8:16 but the drawbridge is like I'm see I'm
8:18 just see I'm going to see. My Steve My
8:21 Steve definitely
8:24 definitely got over the wall.
8:26 Um but it was like game game recognizes
8:28 game. He had a wall. Oh, okay.
8:30 >> Yeah. And so, we had long conversations
8:32 about our walls and and slowly through
8:35 those conversations, we just
8:37 those walls crumbled with each other and
8:39 we've been together now for 38 years.
8:40 >> Wow. Yeah.
8:42 Um hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
8:44 life.
8:48 Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder.
8:50 When I started dating Steve,
8:53 well, when we got married, 6 months
8:54 after we got married. This is, you know,
8:57 you you said for you love was going to
8:59 be being a prisoner. Mhm.
9:02 And having to just shut down
9:02 to survive.
9:04 >> Mhm. Right?
9:05 >> Run away. Don't confront it. No
9:06 conversations, no fights.
9:08 >> No. No.
9:10 Um for me, 6 months after we were
9:12 married, I went to go see a therapist
9:14 and I said, "I cannot do this. I've got
9:16 to get out of this marriage." And we had
9:17 dated off and on for 7 years before we
9:19 got married. And I said, "I got to get out."
9:20 out."
9:24 And she said, "I could The This is hard.
9:26 I I could see how this is not working."
9:28 And I was like
9:30 I had a twinge of defensiveness about
9:32 Steve and I said, "What do you mean?"
9:35 And she said,
9:38 "He likes you so much more
9:42 than you like you. It must be terrible."
9:43 I was like, "Fuck you, MAN. YOU'RE FIRED."
9:44 FIRED." >> [laughter]
9:49 >> I WAS I WAS SO
9:51 I I thought, "What?"
9:53 That's what I do. So, if you I'm going
9:54 to give you one of my tells.
9:57 If I do a really high-pitched "What?"
9:59 That means
10:01 I'm That means I'm looking for my purse
10:04 and I'm get I know where the door is. Um
10:06 I I I I just kept thinking, "What do
10:07 What do you mean?" He said, "It's got
10:09 It's got to be very comf- uncomfortable
10:11 to be with someone who sees you and
10:15 really knows you and loves you so much
10:17 when you have not found a way to see you
10:19 and love you so much.
10:22 It's got to be disconcerting."
10:25 What an [ __ ] man. Like, wow. And it
10:26 was true. I had to get to this point
10:28 where I was like, I Maybe I should like
10:31 me as much as he likes me and then make
10:32 a better decision about whether this is
10:34 going to work or not.
10:37 When you grow up
10:39 and pissed off or shut down are your two
10:42 emotional opportunities. Like, that you
10:44 know, in Atlas of the Heart, I write
10:47 about 87 emotions that I think are
10:50 important to understand because the
10:52 limits of our language are the limits of
10:54 our world.
10:58 When you have two buckets,
11:00 then everything must go in those. And in
11:02 fact, in our research over the last 15
11:05 years, we found the average person
11:08 can accurately identify and name three
11:12 emotions: happy, sad, pissed off. Mhm. >> [clears throat]
11:13 >> [clears throat]
11:17 >> And so, in my family, sad was not
11:19 an option. That was weakness.
11:23 So, you could be pissed or okay.
11:26 So, when I get scared,
11:28 when I feel grief,
11:30 when I'm anxious, when I feel
11:34 disappointment, when I feel anguish,
11:36 I'm just angry.
11:38 There's two sort of outstanding question
11:39 marks in my head, and they might be the
11:41 same answer, but it's You said earlier
11:43 on that you didn't fit in at school or
11:45 at home, and I didn't understand why you
11:47 didn't fit in at school or at at home.
11:48 And then the other thing that's sort of
11:49 a question mark in my head is the
11:51 therapist said to you that you well,
11:52 asserted that you didn't like yourself
11:54 as much as he liked you, and I wasn't
11:55 clear on what made you not like yourself.
11:57 yourself.
12:00 I wanted out of where I was raised. I
12:03 wanted to leave everything I knew.
12:06 And so, I always felt like an outsider.
12:09 I didn't
12:11 I didn't want to do I mean, I wasn't popular.
12:13 popular.
12:15 I wasn't dating a quarterback. That was
12:18 a dream that my my parents and their
12:21 parents and their parents, you know, you
12:23 were you were a Bear Cadet and you dated
12:24 a quarterback.
12:27 And you got a farm. So, at
12:31 I felt not cute, not popular,
12:34 not understood.
12:45 I was ang- I was anxious
12:48 and and always ready.
12:50 And the point about self-esteem, which
12:51 the therapist would have highlighted
12:53 about not liking oneself as much as
12:55 Steve liked you, where did that come
12:57 from? Or is that related in some way?
12:59 Oh, cuz my parents parented with a very
13:02 big a heaping dose of shame.
13:04 Oh, okay. So, if you accomplish
13:06 something or you don't accomplish
13:07 something, you're made to feel bad about it.
13:08 it. >> Yeah.
13:09 >> Yeah.
13:14 And a ton of it was about appearance,
13:17 being fun, appearance? Yeah.
13:19 Yeah, like, you know,
13:21 big blonde hair with hot rollers, the
13:24 higher the hair, the closer to God. You
13:27 needed to be tough and strong and throw
13:29 on a baseball cap and get somewhere
13:32 really quick, low maintenance,
13:34 and you needed to be a beauty pageant queen.
13:35 queen.
13:37 Do you remember them ever
13:38 being critical of your appearance in a
13:41 way that has stayed with you?
13:46 I mean, I think not just them. I mean,
13:49 like, I think
13:53 having young girls and young women
13:55 keeping them
13:57 from developing threats to their self-esteem
14:00 self-esteem
14:01 is not just a parental thing. It's like
14:02 it's It's like asking them not to
14:04 breathe because the air is poison. Like,
14:07 it's like every message from everywhere,
14:09 you know, the fashion magazines, you'd
14:10 read them and you'd think, "Wow,
14:12 "Wow,
14:15 I don't I don't look like this. How am I
14:17 going to look like this?" You know, and
14:19 you'd lather yourself up with baby oil
14:21 and you put lemon juice in your hair,
14:23 you put tin foil under your chin, get as
14:24 much skin cancer as you could cuz we
14:27 didn't know, you know, like, you you'd
14:30 We all wore jeans that you had to put on
14:32 with pliers with for the zipper cuz they
14:36 were so tight. Appearance mattered. This
14:38 is Texas, baby.
14:40 You go off to university eventually, and
14:41 not a straight line, but eventually you
14:42 get into university. Not a straight
14:45 line. Mhm. That's the sweetest thing
14:46 you've said to me. Um
14:47 Um
14:50 I graduated from college when I was 29.
14:53 Well, so you become a research professor
14:55 in 2001. >> [clears throat]
14:55 >> [clears throat]
14:58 >> And you've been a research professor and
15:00 many more things um ever since then. You
15:02 get your PhD in social work at the
15:04 University of Houston, Texas
15:08 between '96 and 2002. And really for the
15:10 last couple of decades, you've focused
15:12 on research, understanding people.
15:14 Obviously, there's so many more strings
15:15 to your bow in terms of like media and
15:18 podcasting and authorship. But over
15:21 those since 2001, we're in 2025 now,
15:23 just over two decades.
15:25 My first question is um
15:28 how has your perspective on How has the
15:29 world changed in those last two decades
15:31 in your view?
15:35 Unions would say before any
15:37 great progression,
15:40 there is a regression.
15:42 And I think that
15:44 that
15:46 when you look at various admin- I know
15:47 you have a very global audience. When
15:49 you look at administrations,
15:50 political administrations across the
15:54 world, and you look at
15:59 how power is being used right now,
16:01 it will tell you a lot about what
16:02 they're afraid of. Mhm.
16:08 What What is that face? We're going to
16:09 have to pause it.
16:10 >> I was thinking about a conversation I
16:11 had recently with my my best friends. It
16:13 must have been this weekend. Yeah, it
16:14 was this weekend cuz it was my friend's
16:16 birthday in Manchester, the UK, so we
16:17 flew in.
16:20 Um and we had a conversation about how
16:21 the leading political narrative at the
16:23 moment, this might be adjacent to what
16:23 you were saying, but it's the way I
16:25 interpreted it. The leading political
16:26 narrative at the moment that seems to be
16:30 getting people elected is if you say
16:32 those people with that skin color are
16:33 the reason for the pain and anguish in
16:35 your life, it's actually the people
16:37 below you that are coming over the
16:39 border or crossing the the English
16:41 Channel on dinghies that are ruining
16:43 your life, and it seems to be like a
16:46 really effective narrative to 100%.
16:48 empower both in the US and the UK. Like,
16:50 the central narrative that is swaying
16:51 elections it seems at the moment in the
16:52 UK and the US is
16:54 those brown people on that boat or
16:56 coming over the border are the reason
16:57 for the pain in your life,
16:59 and it seems to work, and that seems to
17:00 be the thing getting power. So, that's
17:01 kind of what ran through my head when I
17:03 heard this idea of like power and what
17:05 you're scared of. I actually think I
17:07 inverted it to if I can tell you what to
17:09 be scared of or find the thing you might
17:10 be scared of or whatever, then I get
17:12 power. But maybe it goes the other way, too.
17:13 too.
17:15 I don't think we'll ever talk about
17:16 anything more important than this, to be
17:18 honest with you. That's why I thought
17:22 your response was so interesting cuz you
17:24 you you may if I was going to like do
17:27 the text box above your face, Mhm.
17:29 it would have said, "Well, holy [ __ ]
17:32 That's interesting." Because
17:34 we when you use power, especially power
17:35 over, cuz there's multiple kinds of
17:38 power. There's power with and to
17:40 and power within.
17:42 So, people that use power with and to
17:44 and power within work from a belief
17:47 system that's completely different.
17:49 We believe that power is infinite and
17:51 can grow when shared.
17:53 People who use power over
17:55 work from a belief system that power is
17:58 finite, like pizza, and if I give you
18:00 any, I have a deficit.
18:02 So, it's got to be hoarded and protected
18:03 and not shared.
18:05 Power over
18:07 is really important to understand
18:09 because when people are using power
18:10 over, they're definitely letting you
18:12 know what they're afraid of because
18:14 that's what they're focused on.
18:16 And they're tapping into, and I think
18:19 this is absolutely true,
18:22 if you give people
18:25 someone to dislike
18:28 and blame for their pain,
18:29 and they look different than the people
18:31 who are voting, you [clears throat] will
18:34 win 100 times out of 100.
18:37 If you say, "I see your pain. I can tell
18:39 you exactly the source of it, and I can
18:41 fix this for you.
18:42 And [clears throat] the source of it is
18:44 going to be easy to see. You're not
18:46 going to see yourself in them." Mhm.
18:48 Mhm.
18:49 So, that narrative that you were talking
18:52 about, it is a full circle. People in power
18:54 power
18:56 use power to address issues that they're
18:57 afraid of.
19:00 They gain power by leveraging fear and
19:02 giving people an enemy.
19:04 That's how this works.
19:06 It works like this I mean, I spend 95%
19:09 of my time in organizations
19:11 working with C-suite leaders and senior
19:13 leaders. This This is how it works in
19:15 organizations, how it works in
19:17 political, you know, how it works in
19:18 faith communities. This is how power
19:21 works in general. So, power over is a
19:23 very specific kind of power,
19:25 and it's especially dangerous because in
19:28 order to maintain it,
19:31 you have to engage in periodic bouts of
19:34 cruelty towards vulnerable populations.
19:36 You have to remind people what you're
19:38 capable of.
19:40 So, there's four types of power you you
19:42 you speak about in um Damn, you
19:43 [clears throat] have that in your notes?
19:49 Why are you surprised? I don't know.
19:50 It's It's four types of power and
19:51 leadership you speak about. There's the
19:52 power over, which is controlling or
19:53 exploiting and there's power with
19:55 finding common ground and building
19:57 collective strength, power to which is
19:58 giving others agency and recognizing
20:00 their potential, and power within which
20:05 is honoring differences and self-worth.
20:06 So, as a leader of a business, if I were
20:08 to be successful,
20:10 are you telling me that I need to stay
20:13 away from power over and adopt another
20:16 power within this list of four?
20:18 Yeah, I think
20:21 what we've seen be very successful over
20:24 time is power with, power to, and power within.
20:25 within. So,
20:27 So,
20:31 collaborative power, co-creation power, self-awareness,
20:33 self-awareness,
20:35 metacognition, knowing yourself, knowing
20:37 how you think and learn. So, power with
20:41 and power to. Power over is
20:45 excruciatingly difficult to maintain.
20:47 We're not neurobiologically hardwired
20:49 hardwired
20:52 to stay in fear for very long. So,
20:54 So,
20:58 if I work for you if I work for you,
21:01 and you're using power over to lead me,
21:03 you're threatening me with my job,
21:04 you're threatening me with consequences,
21:07 you're threatening me with demotion,
21:08 one of two things is going to happen for
21:12 me neurobiologically. I am either going to
21:14 to
21:17 just become numb to it. It's not It's
21:18 not going to be able to You're not going
21:20 to maintain I can't maintain that
21:22 constant level of fear. It's just too demanding.
21:23 demanding. >> [snorts]
21:23 >> [snorts]
21:26 >> Just physically demanding.
21:29 Or I might get hyper
21:31 normalized. I might just like this is
21:32 This is what I work in. This is like
21:34 crazy. This is it, you know? But every
21:36 now and then you're going to have to do
21:40 something that demonstrates to me how
21:42 chaotic and cruel you can actually be.
21:44 Like you're going to have to engage in
21:47 periodic acts of cruelty to remind me
21:49 that the fear is real and to put me back
21:50 in it.
21:52 And so, one of the things you're seeing
21:56 right now, I mean like we in in the US,
22:00 the deportation and immigration issues.
22:03 This is not a president that has, you
22:06 know, tightened his belt on immigration
22:08 more than other previous presidents. But
22:11 we've never seen masked people
22:13 grabbing people off the street while
22:15 children hold on to their legs
22:17 screaming, "Mom, mom, mom." We've We've
22:19 never seen that before, right? But we've
22:22 had other presidents
22:26 the deportation numbers that we're seeing.
22:27 seeing.
22:29 But we've never seen that level of
22:31 cruelty in display.
22:35 That is a real display of cruelty as a
22:38 reminder of who who holds power and who
22:40 does not.
22:41 It also makes me think of relationships
22:43 when you're talking about
22:45 you know, how people are controlled with
22:47 power over. A lot of people talk about
22:48 like sort of narcissistic relationships
22:51 or abusive relationships where
22:53 they don't feel like they can leave or
22:55 you know, they don't leave and they end
22:57 up becoming acclimatized to the treatment.
22:58 treatment.
23:00 I'm a big systems theory I'm a systems
23:02 theory person. I think in systems theory
23:04 I was trained in systems theory. I think
23:06 if you don't understand systems systems
23:08 theory, at least if you're leading an
23:09 organization right now, you're going to
23:15 the complexity inside and outside of
23:17 organizations is such that we need a
23:21 framework to understand how all these
23:22 individual systems are bumping up
23:24 against each other. Like you you
23:27 probably bump up against
23:28 a hundred systems a day, right?
23:32 >> Yeah. And so, what I would imagine, the
23:33 story I would make up about your success,
23:36 success,
23:37 cuz this is true of any systems theory,
23:39 is in order for systems to thrive and grow,
23:41 grow,
23:44 they have to keep permeable boundaries.
23:47 Meaning they have to allow feedback to
23:50 flow in and out from other systems. Mhm. >> [clears throat]
23:50 >> [clears throat]
23:53 >> To be aware. So, I'm just going to give
23:54 you a very good example. I'm very
23:56 excited about the female
23:59 the experts you had on Mhm.
24:02 around menopause,
24:03 women's life. I mean, I'm so excited
24:05 about that. Mhm. Like just to be honest
24:07 with you, like Mary Claire is my doctor.
24:09 Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Haver. So,
24:10 So, um
24:15 what is interesting is the systems that
24:22 You know, and the systems that would be
24:24 sending feedback that hey, this is not
24:26 for me. I'm not clicking on this.
24:28 I I've shared that first one with a
24:29 hundred people. >> [laughter]
24:30 >> [laughter]
24:33 >> You know, because there's a reality to
24:35 our lives that is uncomfortable for people.
24:36 people.
24:37 But those are your partners and your
24:41 moms and your, you know, and your bosses
24:43 and it's real. And I can guarantee you
24:46 this was happening with the dudes.
24:50 Yeah. Like it'd be a gazillion dollar
24:52 whatever is over a trillion, gazillion.
24:54 I don't know. Um but just thinking about
24:56 that one podcast and the systems that
25:00 you're touching. Health, women's issues,
25:03 um family systems are affected. Like
25:05 that podcast hits 20 systems that I can
25:06 think of in my head right now. >> Mhm.
25:07 >> Mhm. >> [clears throat]
25:07 >> [clears throat]
25:09 >> The divorce rates of people of women in
25:11 their 50s and 60s. Mhm. I mean, right?
25:12 Yes or no?
25:15 >> Yeah, 100% yeah. Right. So, a healthy
25:17 system has permeable boundaries, meaning
25:19 feedback is flowing in and out all the time.
25:20 time.
25:24 What happens when the world gets complex
25:26 is we start not wanting the feedback.
25:29 The complexity is too big. So, we start
25:30 shutting down those permeable
25:32 boundaries. Well, what happens to a
25:34 system where the boundaries are no
25:37 longer permeable? It atrophies.
25:40 And in the in the process of atrophying,
25:42 the system becomes self-referencing. Are
25:44 we good? We're great.
25:46 Are we right? We're right. Are we on
25:49 target? We're on target. Because the
25:51 boundaries of the system is are no
25:53 longer craving outside feedback even
25:55 when it's tough. And in businesses today,
25:57 today,
25:59 the geopolitical realities,
26:04 the market changes, AI, I mean, it's
26:07 crazy. Mhm. And so, our
26:09 our predisposition
26:11 predisposition
26:14 to shut down uncertainty and complexity
26:16 is the biggest threat to the systems in
26:19 which we work and live.
26:22 The self-protect, close the wall, put up
26:24 the drawbridge, fill the moat with piranhas.
26:26 piranhas.
26:28 We just don't have that luxury. We've
26:29 got to keep the the boundaries
26:31 permeable. We've got to keep learning,
26:34 guessing, unlearning, relearning. One of
26:37 the added complexities is the rise of
26:38 algorithms. And And actually, when I
26:41 think about algorithms that are powered
26:42 by AI, they're going to be even better
26:44 at knowing what you want to see so that
26:46 you spend time so that you consume more
26:48 adverts, which means
26:49 probably the best thing to show me is
26:51 either something really fearful or to to
26:53 confirm what I already believe.
26:54 >> 100%. An algorithm that was doing the
26:55 opposite probably wouldn't be an
26:57 enjoyable experience for the average
26:58 human brain. It would cause too much
26:59 dissonance, too much discomfort.
27:01 >> But great for democracy. Great. Yeah,
27:04 fantastic. But terrible for for running
27:06 a business and selling ads. So, any
27:07 company that takes that approach will go
27:09 bankrupt. This is why TikTok I think
27:11 have been so successful is the algorithm
27:13 is I don't use TikTok. It's I have a
27:15 TikTok account. I don't have the app on
27:18 my phone. But um from what I hear is
27:19 it's so unbelievably addictive. People
27:21 describe it to me and they're like, "Oh
27:22 my god, it's so addictive." But this
27:26 [ __ ] is the devil. Yeah. Yeah.
27:28 Yeah.
27:29 But it's
27:31 people are driven by incentives, right?
27:32 And you know, your
27:33 your share price is going to tumble and
27:35 you're going to be fired.
27:36 You're going to lose your your status
27:41 I'm playing devil's advocate. Obviously,
27:42 I'm not saying >> No,
27:43 >> No,
27:45 I No, I agree.
27:48 What do you think the solution is?
27:51 And what responsibility do
27:55 the bros who run these tech platforms have?
27:56 have?
27:58 It's complicated.
27:59 Well, I agree. I'm not looking for an
28:01 easy answer. Go ahead. Hit me. Well, and
28:04 I just think it's complicated because
28:06 what what an objective party would say,
28:08 who's just looking at the incentives of
28:10 these groups of people, is if they don't
28:11 do it,
28:15 then China will. So, even with AI now,
28:16 you know what I mean? I'm like I've sat
28:18 with all these experts and I keep
28:19 hitting up against this wall, which is
28:21 okay, if we just banned people in the
28:22 United States from pursuing this super
28:25 intelligence strategy, then Russia and
28:27 China get there first, then the United
28:28 States, unfortunately, are going to end
28:30 up being
28:32 China's French bulldog.
28:34 And actually, I can't refute that. I go,
28:35 "No, you're right." Cuz we would you'd
28:37 have to literally lease the technology
28:39 off them. It will be so powerful and
28:41 give such an economic advantage that you
28:42 will have to lease it off China. So,
28:44 you're like, "Okay, I guess Sam Altman
28:46 does need to crack on."
28:48 Or else
28:50 So, it's complicated.
28:52 >> I mean, this is where I end up every time.
28:53 time.
28:54 I mean, look what happened with TikTok.
28:56 China made an algorithm. It was
28:57 unbelievably addictive. The United
29:00 States have just had to buy it off them.
29:01 Because they were scared that the data
29:02 was going to be used against the United
29:03 States. It's a prime example. Like China
29:05 were like, "Fuck it, we don't care."
29:05 Yeah, right. >> Yeah.
29:06 >> Yeah.
29:08 And they made an unbelievable algorithm
29:09 called TikTok, which just captivated,
29:11 you know, the youth are all just like
29:12 losing their brains. So,
29:13 I don't know. I don't know. It's tough.
29:14 It's rough.
29:17 Spiritual crisis.
29:19 Yeah, I mean, you just laid it out.
29:22 You just laid it out.
29:24 We're emotionally dysregulated. We're
29:26 distrustful of each other. We don't
29:27 trust ourselves very much and we're
29:30 disconnected. I can't give up on people,
29:33 though. I'm not built that way.
29:36 Like I just believe that we are more
29:39 good than greedy.
29:41 You know, I I was in conversation with
29:43 Trevor Noah at an event.
29:45 And I mentioned this term that I I was
29:47 really excited about
29:50 And he challenged me on it.
29:51 And I said, I think what we need is
29:54 cognitive sovereignty. We need to
29:57 wrestle control
29:59 away from the algorithms
30:02 and decide what we consume, what we
30:06 read, how we think, think critically.
30:08 We need
30:09 to think about our attention and our focus
30:11 focus
30:15 as commodities that people are after.
30:16 >> Because they're after them, right? >> Mhm.
30:18 >> Mhm.
30:19 He had an interesting point though. He
30:21 always has interesting points, don't you think?
30:21 think?
30:23 >> tough to to talk to Trevor because he's
30:25 so he's always got an interesting point.
30:27 >> He's always got an interesting point.
30:28 Damn it.
30:30 Um and he's funny. But he said, "No, we
30:32 need less cognitive sovereignty, Brené."
30:33 And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He
30:35 goes, "Everything's about the for you
30:37 page. Everything's for you. We need
30:39 communal sovereignty." He's like, "You
30:42 know, the whole problem is that your for
30:45 you page is completely sovereign. You
30:47 intellectually and spiritually" I'm I'm
30:49 I'm paraphrasing what he said. I'm sure
30:51 it was like
30:53 funnier and better looking, but um
30:55 um but
30:56 but
30:58 he he and then then I was trying to
31:00 think about like I guess maybe that's
31:02 not the right term. But let me let me
31:04 tell you what scares me the most.
31:06 I'm in I'm in some weird rooms because
31:08 of the nature of my job. I'm in rooms
31:11 where the people who run these platforms
31:13 and own and you know, that own the CEOs
31:14 of these business and the founders are
31:17 in these rooms. And I hear them talking
31:23 and I hear things that are so misaligned
31:25 that it panics me. So I hear someone
31:28 say, "Hey, you know, tech billionaire,
31:30 what what should my kids study? I'm
31:32 worried for my kids." Well, they should
31:34 study coding, physics, you know, and
31:37 then 5 minutes later as if that answer
31:39 didn't happen, someone will say,
31:41 "To what do you attribute your success?
31:43 I mean, deeply when you think about it."
31:45 And the same person will say,
31:49 "My deep philosophy and the Stoics."
31:50 And so then I'm thinking to myself,
31:53 well, which is it, dude?
31:55 And then I then I start to extrapolate
31:57 from there and wonder
32:00 if there is a thinking class that's emerging
32:02 emerging
32:03 where they're like, "We're going to read philosophy
32:05 philosophy
32:07 and we're going to read
32:08 the liberal arts and we're going to
32:10 study history.
32:12 And the rest of you, just keep
32:14 scrolling. Don't worry about the big words.
32:15 words.
32:16 Well, we'll handle all the big words for
32:19 you." Like it's like when they asked
32:22 Steve Jobs, "Well, your kids must love
32:24 the iPad."
32:26 Steve Jobs said,
32:28 "My kids don't have an iPad."
32:30 And then his biographer who spent time
32:32 with his family said, "He wasn't
32:34 kidding. There's no technology. At
32:37 dinner, they're talking about art and history."
32:38 history."
32:40 Mhm. The hardest chapter I've ever
32:42 written in my life of any book was the
32:43 chapter on grounded confidence in Strong Ground.
32:44 Ground.
32:46 What is the set of skill sets and
32:48 mindsets that I think we're going to
32:50 need to future ready and future proof
32:53 ourselves to be leaders moving forward?
32:55 And I think what was hard about it was
32:57 the complexity of it was probably a
32:58 combination of 30 different mindsets and
33:01 skill sets.
33:03 And when I was done,
33:05 you know, for commercial reasons,
33:06 someone on my team immediately said,
33:08 "Jeez, this is like a if you can train
33:11 people in these things, this is really
33:13 this is like really important."
33:15 And the first thing I thought was [ __ ]
33:18 that, my kids.
33:20 Train train schmain. I get it. It's
33:22 important. Like we'll we'll we'll we'll
33:23 develop some instrumentation, measure
33:25 it. We'll train folks in it. I think
33:26 it's trainable, it's teachable, it's measurable.
33:27 measurable.
33:32 But really, I want this for my kids.
33:33 I want my kids to know systems thinking.
33:36 I want my kids to know anticipatory
33:38 thinking, situational awareness,
33:40 temporal awareness.
33:44 I want my kids to have this complex set
33:46 of skills.
33:48 Do I want them to have jobs one day
33:49 where all they're worried about a
33:51 shareholder value? Really, no.
33:54 I want them to own their mind, own their
33:57 intellect, own their attention, and own
33:59 their focus.
34:02 I want them to read.
34:04 I want them to understand history.
34:06 history.
34:07 I want them to develop pattern
34:09 recognition skills cuz these are the
34:11 skills of the future. I want them to be
34:15 able to hold the tension of nuance and paradox
34:16 paradox
34:18 when everything in their brain is
34:20 saying, "Pick one, pick one, reconcile.
34:22 I'm uncomfortable. Pick one, reconcile.
34:26 I'm uncomfortable." That's neurobiology.
34:28 In those 20 in those 20 years of your 20
34:30 plus years of your career, what have you
34:32 been exposed to from a 30,000 foot
34:34 perspective? Like what
34:36 what are the the wide range of reference
34:38 points that you draw upon
34:42 to be the person that you are today? And
34:43 you know, cuz you've had you it feels
34:44 like you've got a very wide range of
34:46 references. Clearly, you know, you're
34:46 you're someone that cares a lot about
34:48 history. That comes through in your
34:49 answers, but I'm wondering in your
34:51 career like what are what are the
34:53 experiences that you've had? Have you
34:55 been working directly with patients? Is
34:57 it aca- academic reference points you're
34:59 drawing upon?
35:01 Yeah, um
35:03 no one's ever asked me this, which I've
35:07 been grateful that no one's asked me. Um
35:10 so what a pain in the ass, but um
35:11 because no one's going to like the
35:13 answer. I'm excited about the answer now.
35:15 now.
35:19 Everything. Like every single thing.
35:23 Um yes, I you know, I love history. Yes, I
35:25 I
35:29 read academic papers all the time. Yes,
35:31 I wake up in the morning and I read
35:32 because of the nature of my work, I read
35:33 The Wall Street Journal, The New York
35:36 Times, Bloomberg, The Financial Times.
35:38 Like I yeah, I mean I I I read and a
35:42 lot, but there's a chapter in the book
35:44 that was one of my favorite to write on
35:47 the transitions home from work.
35:50 Mhm. And how how how tough they are.
35:52 And how if you're like me, you've had a
35:55 very frustrated partner look at you more
35:58 than once in your life and say, "Hey,
35:59 I know it was stressful. I don't work
36:00 for you.
36:02 Change gears." Yeah.
36:03 Have you ever had that?
36:05 >> No comment. No comment. >> [laughter]
36:06 >> [laughter] >> Yeah.
36:07 >> Yeah.
36:09 I use a metaphor
36:12 in that book in this chapter
36:14 of a lock.
36:16 And how did that come to me?
36:17 Because I was reading the book series
36:19 The Rivers of London.
36:22 And in that book series,
36:25 there are two gods of the Thames.
36:28 And the Teddington Lock is where out
36:30 right outside of London in Teddington is
36:33 where custody changes for them. So I
36:35 went to the Teddington Lock cuz I was
36:39 interested. I met the lockmaster
36:41 that runs the lock.
36:43 She gave me a 3-hour lesson that day. We
36:46 let narrowboats through the Thames.
36:48 I learned how lock works and that's the
36:51 metaphor that I use to talk about the
36:54 research on what do we do when we spend
36:56 all day locking in,
36:59 hyperfocused, compartmentalizing,
37:01 getting [ __ ] done.
37:03 And then instead of going home to our
37:05 partner, when we get home, we spend 30
37:07 minutes in the garage on TikTok cuz we
37:10 can't bear to go in.
37:13 So why do we do that? Because we need a
37:17 lock through period. We need time to go
37:20 into a chamber metaphorically,
37:22 change levels,
37:24 let go of where we were, lower ourselves
37:26 to the rhythm of what we're doing now.
37:28 Cognitively we'd call it cognitive and
37:30 domain shifting.
37:32 And we need time. So I looked at the
37:36 lockmaster at uh Teddington and said,
37:38 "This should just take you a long time.
37:39 Can we get this chamber filled up a
37:40 little bit quicker?"
37:42 And she said, "Locking through takes
37:44 what locking through takes. If you rush
37:48 it, you risk capsizing."
37:50 We get home and then we walk in the back
37:51 door and it's like, "I can't find my
37:53 shin guards. I think I left them on the
37:55 pitch. Where are my goggles, Mom? Oh my
37:57 god, you didn't sign the permission
37:59 slip. I had to sneak into the zoo." You
38:02 know, and you're like,
38:03 "Take me back to work where I'm the boss
38:06 of everything." You [laughter] know. So
38:08 where do I learn those things? Well,
38:10 cognitive and domain shifting come out
38:12 of psychology.
38:14 Gemma, the lockmaster at Teddington,
38:17 there's wisdom everywhere.
38:18 I put it together as your stories and
38:20 metaphors. I mean, another thing in the
38:23 book. I mean, I'm standing on the
38:27 sideline at DKR, the University of Texas
38:29 Longhorn football stadium. Um and I'm
38:31 standing with Emmanuel Acho.
38:32 Do you know Emmanuel? No. Yeah, he's
38:34 great. He played for the Longhorns. He
38:36 played for the NFL. Now he's a writer.
38:39 So I'm standing there and we're watching
38:41 the game and I look at him and I go,
38:44 "How would you define pocket presence?"
38:45 And pocket presence is an American
38:48 football term. So do you know American
38:51 football? Okay. So I'm a quarterback.
38:52 I'm going to get the ball and I have to
38:54 throw the ball or run the ball or hand
38:55 off the ball to get the ball down the
38:57 pitch, down the field, right? >> Mhm.
38:57 >> Mhm. >> [clears throat]
38:57 >> [clears throat]
39:00 >> And when when the ball is snapped and
39:02 the ball is put into motion,
39:06 there's about 1,200 lb of really angry
39:09 people trying to drive me into the ground.
39:10 ground.
39:12 The people that are protecting me from
39:15 those defensive guys are called my
39:17 offensive line. Mhm. And the way they
39:18 [clears throat] do it is they form a
39:21 pocket around the quarterback.
39:24 And the quarterback uses that time to
39:25 decide where am I going to throw the
39:27 ball? Am I going to run the ball? And
39:30 pocket presence is the ability of a
39:34 quarterback to use the on average 2.8 to
39:38 3 seconds he has to read the field,
39:39 understand where the defenders are, and
39:41 make a decision.
39:43 And so when I asked Emmanuel Acho, "How
39:45 would you define pocket presence?" He said,
39:47 said,
39:48 and I want you to think about this in
39:50 terms of your business.
39:53 The ability to read the field without
39:55 seeing all of it.
39:58 And trusting your team well enough
40:00 to make a move
40:03 even though you can't see everything. Mhm.
40:04 Mhm.
40:06 What are the skill sets you need right
40:08 there? One, temporal awareness.
40:09 You got to know how much time you have
40:10 to get rid of that ball and get it down
40:13 the field. They they say Tom Brady, who
40:14 played for the Patriots, is any of this
40:15 ringing a bell?
40:16 >> Yeah, I know who you mean. Great. Tom Brady.
40:17 Brady.
40:19 They said his pocket presence was so
40:21 good, he could tell where his offensive
40:24 linemen were by the vibrations through
40:27 his his cleats on the field.
40:30 So, temporal awareness, situational
40:32 awareness, what's going on, anticipatory awareness.
40:34 awareness.
40:37 Think about a great football player.
40:39 Right? Think about Masala.
40:41 You don't kick the ball to where the
40:43 striker is. You kick the ball to where
40:45 the striker's going to be. Mhm. So,
40:47 anticipatory and situational awareness, right?
40:47 right? >> Mhm.
40:48 >> Mhm.
40:50 Pattern recognition.
40:51 Have I been in this situation before? Do
40:53 I know how to, you know,
40:54 where is the goalie in the cage? Where
40:57 are they standing right now? Like and so
40:59 I'll take my inspiration from sports all
41:00 the time, which is why there's so many
41:03 sports metaphors.
41:04 Right? Mhm. >> [clears throat]
41:04 >> [clears throat]
41:06 >> I think there's not a better sports a
41:07 better metaphor to describe work right
41:09 now than
41:12 American League Football.
41:14 One of the things that um perhaps is is
41:15 throughout your work is this idea of
41:19 connection. I did a mushroom
41:20 I did magic mushrooms with my girlfriend
41:21 a couple of years ago, the first time
41:24 I've ever done it. And um
41:26 the message that came through for me was
41:28 it was about connection. And that word
41:30 has had a fond place in my heart ever
41:30 since. It's been really, really
41:32 important. And we live in a society
41:33 that's more lonely than ever before,
41:35 more disconnected in many ways, as you
41:36 described when you're referencing the
41:39 spiritual crisis that we're living in.
41:40 This word connection, what does that
41:42 mean? Does it mean on an individual
41:44 basis? Does it mean me having friends
41:47 and relationships? Is that connection?
41:48 Is that the type of connection I should
41:49 be looking for? Or does it need Do I
41:51 need to like Do you think people need to
41:53 ladder up further to
41:56 their city, their town, their world,
41:59 to the community, to something bigger? God.
42:01 God.
42:02 What What does connection mean in this context?
42:02 context? >> Yes.
42:07 I think the answer to that question is
42:10 yes. We're neuro- neurobiologically
42:11 hardwired to be in connection with other
42:13 people. And in the absence of
42:16 connection, there's always suffering.
42:18 Always suffering in the absence of
42:21 connection. So, I think
42:22 I mean, just how we're built, mirror
42:25 neurons, you know, our ability to sync
42:27 up neurobiologically when we feel
42:29 connected and are hearing each other.
42:31 So, to me, connection is the ability to
42:33 be in a relationship where we can both
42:36 give and receive, where we feel seen,
42:39 heard, believed, valued.
42:42 That is that human connection is really
42:44 important on a micro level, one-on-one
42:46 with other human beings.
42:49 I think a sense of belonging and a sense
42:50 of place,
42:52 and I don't know that that necessarily
42:56 needs to be a location, but
43:01 a sense of being a part of something
43:02 bigger than you,
43:04 I think is also important. So, love and belonging,
43:06 belonging,
43:15 I I think spirituality I define
43:18 spirituality is being inextricably
43:19 connected to other people by something
43:21 bigger than us. Maybe that's love, maybe
43:23 that's God,
43:25 maybe that's fishing. Like I I you know,
43:27 it's different for other people. For me,
43:29 I'm faith is one of my values and I'm a
43:32 a pretty serious God person.
43:35 Um I'm a pretty deep person of faith. I
43:37 guess I would ask somebody,
43:40 "What is that thing
43:43 that transcends difference?
43:45 difference?
43:46 Political difference, ideological
43:49 difference, race, gender, you know,
43:53 belief systems, class, what is it
43:55 that brings you to a common humanity place?"
44:00 Like for me, it's God. That's it's a big challenge.
44:01 challenge.
44:03 Cuz like I I try to work from an ethos
44:04 where I try to find God in the face of
44:06 everybody that I meet, even if I want to
44:10 punch you in the throat. I try to like
44:12 Like like that's my thing. In some way,
44:15 I'm connected to you. Mhm. Whether I
44:16 like it or not and whether I like you or not.
44:21 And when you talk about belonging, it's
44:22 interesting in your book Braving the
44:25 Wilderness, which I think the question's
44:26 kind of summed up by the subtitle here.
44:28 The quest for true belonging and the
44:30 courage to stand alone. This appears to
44:33 be a dichotomy or a contradiction. Mhm.
44:34 To belong, but also to stand alone. >> Mhm.
44:39 Why are both of these important? Why is
44:40 it important to belong? What does that
44:42 mean? And And why is it also important to
44:43 to
44:45 stand alone?
44:48 Cuz I don't think you can truly belong
44:51 to anything or any or or any group if
44:54 you don't belong to yourself first.
44:57 True belonging
45:01 requires us to be who we are,
45:04 not to change who we are. That's fitting
45:05 in. Fitting in is the greatest threat to belonging.
45:07 belonging. Mhm.
45:08 Mhm.
45:10 Which takes us both back to our
45:11 childhoods, right?
45:15 >> Mhm. Yeah. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in.
45:16 in.
45:20 The problem is that that chameleon
45:28 means that in order to fit in, the first
45:30 person you betray is yourself. We've got
45:32 to be able to stand alone.
45:33 And that's what's happening right now in
45:35 the world. I mean, if I if I look back
45:36 at Braving the Wilderness,
45:39 that was maybe the only prophetic book
45:41 that I think I've ever written. Like
45:42 that Like Like that I don't think I'm
45:44 profit like, but man, did I call what
45:47 was happening in terms of the big sort
45:50 into ideological bunkers, where we are
45:53 going to get to a place where
45:55 I don't even know you, but I'm going to
45:57 call you friend because we hate the same people.
46:02 And you over there,
46:04 I actually do love you.
46:08 You're a family member of mine.
46:09 But I'm not, you know, because we don't
46:11 believe in the same things,
46:12 you have no meaning in my life. Like
46:14 it's like we have gotten to the place where
46:16 where
46:19 ideological bunkers,
46:21 and those are so dangerous cuz here you
46:23 and I like let's say let's say that we
46:26 have the same belief around immigration.
46:28 Um so we're going to flip this table
46:29 over and we're going to get behind it in
46:31 our ideological bunker and we're going
46:34 to be like, "Yeah, we're right and these
46:36 guys are [ __ ] crazy and [ __ ] y'all."
46:38 You know, and then one day I'm going to
46:40 turn to you and say, "You know, one
46:43 thing I'm wondering about
46:47 is how are we going to solve the problem >> [clears throat]
46:47 >> [clears throat]
46:50 >> with the folks coming over
46:52 in the dinghies
46:54 from France? Cuz I don't think we're
46:56 going to be able to go without solving it
46:57 it
46:58 because we do have an employment issue
47:02 and a housing crisis." And then you go,
47:05 "You're out."
47:07 My My care for you, my connection with
47:10 you, completely dependent
47:12 on you not questioning anything we
47:21 What's real connection? Like I got to
47:23 know what's going on in your mind cuz
47:25 your face is like We got to play poker.
47:26 We got to put that on our agenda. >> [laughter]
47:28 >> [laughter]
47:29 >> What are you thinking? I was just
47:31 thinking about being a podcaster and I
47:32 sit here with all types of people. So, I
47:34 had Kamala Harris sat here
47:36 >> Mhm. uh
47:39 3 or 4 days ago and I'll have someone on
47:41 the right sat here. You know, and then
47:43 I'll have maybe Michelle Obama, then
47:45 I'll have Jordan Peterson, then I'll
47:46 have the opposite of whatever Jordan
47:48 Peterson is. And I was just thinking
47:50 about how um
47:51 how that's also kind of made me feel
47:53 like I don't belong
47:56 because that is quite rare.
47:57 There's probably not a podcaster on
47:58 Earth that has had both Michelle Obama
48:00 and Jordan Peterson.
48:03 No. Yeah. And then Kamala Harris after
48:04 that. Like I didn't manage to scare
48:07 Michelle off. I didn't scare Jordan off.
48:09 And so
48:10 you get you kind of get attacked from
48:13 both sides. Oh, I mean, look,
48:16 if you're not if you're not
48:19 getting threatening [ __ ]
48:21 from the far
48:23 here, the far left or the far right, if
48:24 you're not getting both, you're not
48:25 doing your job.
48:27 >> Amen. Yeah.
48:30 >> Period. But it's tough. Oh God, it is heartbreaking.
48:31 heartbreaking. >> Yeah.
48:32 >> Yeah.
48:35 It will break your heart and it will
48:39 remind you of why standing alone
48:41 is on the front of that book. Mhm.
48:44 Because what it will do it is it is
48:47 Winnow the right word? It will narrow
48:50 your belonging, your true belonging,
48:52 down to
48:54 a very few people.
48:56 >> I mean, I completely understand how it
48:59 happens that a podcaster like me will
49:01 end up picking a side because there is
49:03 safety in numbers. Well, cuz there's an
49:04 ideological bunker cuz we flipped the
49:07 table over. 100% At any point, you know,
49:08 when the left attacks you, I'm like,
49:09 "Wow, the right looks pretty." When the
49:11 right attacks you, you go, "Oh, the left
49:12 looks pretty."
49:14 Because standing in the in no man's land is
49:16 is
49:18 is not the place you want to be.
49:20 I know I'm never going to succeed in
49:22 this. Like I know I'm never going to
49:24 succeed in converting people converting
49:26 people to be nuanced and to not get
49:28 viscerally angry when I have someone on
49:30 the show who's on the right or
49:31 viscerally angry when I have someone on
49:32 the show who's on the left. I'm already
49:34 aware that when the Kamala episode comes
49:34 out, it's just going to be a bunch of
49:35 people that didn't listen and within the
49:37 first 3 minutes, the comment section's
49:38 just going to be [ __ ] you.
49:41 >> Yeah. And I'm like part of me is trying
49:44 to win that war with my audience, where
49:46 they too will just listen.
49:48 And I know that you don't agree with the
49:50 person, but can you just listen?
49:51 Cuz that's what I do, and it's not some
49:52 act I'm putting on. It's not like I walk
49:54 out there and I start but I I'm
49:55 right-wing in my kitchen or left-wing in
49:57 my kitchen. Genuinely, the brain where
49:59 my brain works is oh, I see this this
50:01 good in this individual.
50:02 And then I meet someone else who's on
50:03 the other side and I say oh, there's a
50:04 couple of points of good that I agree
50:06 upon I agree with them on this.
50:09 That's how I am, and it feels so weird.
50:10 Because when you go on the internet, you
50:12 don't find yourself
50:15 being compelled by either side entirely. No.
50:16 No.
50:17 No, and I think it's really confusing,
50:20 and the only limit I have really is I am
50:21 not probably going to have a
50:30 If your beliefs question my humanity.
50:33 Okay. That that's going to be my line.
50:34 That that's going to be that's going to
50:39 be the line for me is going to be
50:41 if you're cruel
50:43 or name-calling Yeah.
50:47 or if your core beliefs about who I am Mhm.
50:47 Mhm. >> [clears throat]
50:48 >> [clears throat]
50:49 >> or who other people are are dehumanizing.
50:51 dehumanizing.
50:54 I I I can't I can't that I can't do
50:56 because now I've betrayed myself in
50:58 order to make a political point about
51:00 nuance. Yeah. Because that because you know
51:01 know
51:04 dehumanization is a really interesting
51:06 and hard thing.
51:07 When you study when you look at the
51:08 research of people who study dehumanization
51:10 dehumanization
51:12 and you we talked about earlier with the
51:19 There is a circle of moral inclusion.
51:22 We are not built
51:24 we are not hardwired to hurt each other,
51:26 to kill each other
51:32 It's not we're not wired for it
51:35 actually. So, in order
51:37 to do that
51:39 you you've got a person here inside your
51:41 moral inclusion.
51:43 In order to be okay with that, you've
51:45 got to push them outside of moral
51:48 inclusion to be morally excluded from
51:51 somebody you see as human and worthy of
51:54 moral inclusion. And the first step to
51:56 moral exclusion
51:59 moving people out of a safety zone where
52:01 you don't do horrible things to them
52:04 the first way to move people out is
52:06 language. throughout history
52:12 you hear people in this administration
52:15 calling a a community of immigrants an infestation.
52:18 infestation.
52:19 The same way we would talk about animals
52:21 or rats.
52:24 You know, and so my only limit
52:27 to hard conversation is
52:28 is
52:32 if you're operating from an ideology
52:34 where women are dogs
52:37 immigrants are illegals. You know, if
52:39 you're operating from that place of
52:46 you are too dangerous for me.
52:48 But other than that, I'd probably be
52:49 willing to have a conversation with
52:51 anyone. But I can understand why people
52:54 pick sides. I tell you what, it is
52:57 lonely. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
52:58 It's nice to hear that. It's really nice
53:04 Yeah.
53:05 We've talked about it quite a lot, me
53:08 and Jack um who's been producing the
53:10 show since the very beginning. Uh we've
53:12 we've talked a lot about how
53:13 we understand the temptation to pick a
53:14 side. And actually, one of the greatest
53:16 compliments a journalist has ever given me
53:16 me
53:18 is they wrote in the article, and this
53:20 wasn't a journalist that liked me, they
53:21 just said um
53:24 we're unable to
53:25 ascertain which political party he is
53:27 part of.
53:28 I thought that was a great compliment because
53:29 because
53:30 I mean
53:32 >> it means that
53:33 That's that's a journal that's a
53:35 journalistic ethos. I think they would
53:36 want to pin me down and say he's [ __ ]
53:38 they'd love to say I'm right-wing or
53:40 Yeah. something else.
53:42 But they said um in a not very nice
53:43 piece they'd written about me whatever,
53:44 they said that he
53:46 we're unable to figure out what side
53:47 he's part of. And I think that's a
53:49 compliment because it's it's true and it
53:50 I think it allows me to do my job better
53:51 that I don't have too many
53:53 preconceptions when I meet people. I try
53:55 to meet people for the first time.
53:56 Which I enjoy. I think you're pretty
53:58 good at that cuz you are insatiably
54:01 curious. Mhm. It's it's lovely and terrible.
54:02 terrible.
54:03 Why terrible? It's terrible for an avoidant.
54:05 avoidant.
54:07 I found this out recently. I've known it
54:08 my whole life, but I found it out
54:09 recently cuz I had a conversation with
54:10 someone. If someone's I think if
54:11 someone's uncomfortable with
54:13 vulnerability, then I'm like their
54:13 [ __ ] worst nightmare.
54:14 >> YOU ARE. >> [laughter]
54:16 >> [laughter]
54:18 >> WHICH IS INTERESTING CUZ I DON'T EXPECT
54:21 YOU as super vulnerable. Really? Uh
54:23 Uh
54:24 Maybe not.
54:26 >> Carefully optimistic vulnerable. Yeah,
54:29 that's probably Like like you're you're
54:31 cognitively a believer Yeah.
54:33 >> and trying to move the rest of you to it.
54:39 You've got the journalistic ethos of
54:45 equal opportunity
54:46 insatiable curious guy, right? >> Mhm.
54:48 >> Mhm.
54:51 What do you think the responsibility is
55:02 to vet or understand the credibility
55:03 especially when it comes to science or
55:05 those kind of things of what their guest
55:06 is saying.
55:09 I think that we
55:12 the school of podcasters haven't really
55:15 we don't have the um
55:18 the ex the training that journalists do.
55:20 So, we're almost catching up in that
55:21 regard, especially if you become a big
55:23 podcaster because you're kind of held
55:24 you're held at a in a different level.
55:26 So, more recently, one of the things we
55:28 do is we we've hired a I mean this
55:29 recently was a year and a half ago. We
55:32 hired a PhD who does exactly that, who
55:33 after this comes out will go through
55:35 everything that you said and then put on
55:41 not within scientific consensus. But
55:48 is a decision. Yeah. Yeah.
55:49 Yeah.
55:54 It's not a choice without consequence
56:02 What led you to that choice?
56:05 When your podcast reaches lots of people
56:06 you're forced It's kind of going goes
56:07 what I said earlier about the political
56:10 stuff. You're forced to really get clear
56:11 on what you believe and like what
56:12 matters to you. And one of the things
56:15 that matters to me is that the stuff we
56:17 put into the world, we feel like it's
56:20 helping people even if it's not nice.
56:21 And it kind of goes to something that I
56:22 read in your work, which is like our
56:24 objective isn't to be
56:26 nice, it's to be kind. Oh, yeah. And so,
56:27 for example, my convers- the
56:29 conversations we have about AI, like I'm
56:30 well aware that that's not going to
56:33 necessarily make you feel great. But
56:34 But
56:36 I think the avoidance of discomfort in
56:38 in through history Oh god. hasn't led to
56:40 great places. So, like if you think
56:42 there's a bus coming, I can you know, it's
56:43 it's
56:45 I can pretend there isn't, but if I
56:46 think that there might be a bus coming
56:48 and if if experts in are telling me
56:49 there's a bus coming, I think we should
56:50 have a conversation about the bus
56:51 coming. And actually, me having that
56:53 conversation, I get messages all the
56:54 time which is like please stop talking
56:55 about this subject. It doesn't make me
56:57 feel good.
56:59 I'm very anchored to like what my my my
57:01 job is here, and I think it's we can
57:02 push people further
57:04 towards uh
57:11 honest conversations.
57:14 So, when the podcast got bigger and you
57:16 get more and more you get attacked more
57:17 for any any of your guests that you have
57:19 on, you have to get clear on what
57:20 matters to you and what your job is. And
57:21 so, one of the things I thought is
57:21 actually when we have these
57:23 conversations, I want them to be as
57:25 accurate as they possibly can be.
57:27 For the listener who might be confused
57:28 cuz it's a confusing world in this new
57:31 world of democratized media. So
57:32 So
57:33 we do that.
57:34 >> I really respect that. I just want to
57:37 say um I don't think
57:39 that that choice
57:42 is the easy choice.
57:44 What is the easy choice do you think?
57:47 The easy choice is
57:49 I'm going to let you
57:52 say whatever you want
57:53 and I'll let my listeners sort out if
57:55 it's real or not. Mhm.
57:56 Mhm. >> [clears throat]
57:58 >> [clears throat]
58:00 >> And I'll take no responsibility for the credibility
58:02 credibility
58:06 or the facts that are being presented.
58:08 Mhm. Um
58:10 what I think is interesting about what
58:12 you're doing is
58:21 it just seems like a very solid approach where
58:26 I'm a big believer in science. You know,
58:28 I'm married to a physician. I'm a social
58:31 scientist. Like I'm I'm I'm not going to
58:32 be the golden child of this
58:34 administration when it comes to science
58:37 for sure. Like I have a I love science Mhm.
58:38 Mhm.
58:40 shirt that I wear with a DNA scarf. So,
58:43 like I'm I'm like I'm very real about that.
58:45 that.
58:48 I also don't think
58:50 that everything that we see
58:54 that is projected as peer-reviewed
58:57 clinical trial, you know, I think
58:59 challenges to that system are also
59:02 important. I think science cannot be a
59:04 self-referencing system anymore than any
59:06 other system can be. So, to have people
59:08 that have different opinions or new
59:11 opinions Mhm. on
59:14 but to let your listeners or your
59:17 viewers know that this is not an opinion
59:19 where there's a lot of a data collected
59:21 or that this is a controversial opinion
59:23 is respecting people's cognitive self-determination.
59:26 self-determination.
59:28 I I just think it's a it's it's an
59:30 interesting way to do it. I just I I think
59:31 think
59:33 I launched the podcast and it became
59:35 very big during COVID.
59:37 I got you. Yeah.
59:38 Yeah.
59:40 And so
59:41 Houston is home to the biggest medical
59:43 center in the world.
59:45 Like in the world.
59:48 And I live in the medical center area.
59:50 In the beginning there were just, you
59:52 know, it just there never stopped being
59:53 funerals for physicians and people
59:56 working on COVID. And so to hear on
59:59 podcast that it doesn't exist. Yeah. Or that you can use, you know,
60:02 Yeah. Or that you can use, you know, Windex or you know, like some [ __ ]
60:04 Windex or you know, like some [ __ ] like that.
60:05 like that. I I just started to and then I got into
60:07 I I just started to and then I got into a little dust-up around it in my own
60:09 a little dust-up around it in my own situation. And so
60:11 situation. And so I'm always interested as we enter this
60:13 I'm always interested as we enter this world in
60:16 world in platform and podcast responsibility.
60:21 platform and podcast responsibility. It is a it's a slippery slope and it's
60:24 It is a it's a slippery slope and it's um
60:24 um >> Berry. And there's no
60:27 >> Berry. And there's no there's no perfect outcome. Like you
60:29 there's no perfect outcome. Like you don't want to go too far either way,
60:30 don't want to go too far either way, right? You don't want to like have the
60:32 right? You don't want to like have the government get involved and tell you
60:33 government get involved and tell you what truth is or
60:33 what truth is or >> Right. But you also don't want to stray
60:35 >> Right. But you also don't want to stray into um conspiracy land and um Right.
60:39 into um conspiracy land and um Right. >> away from science because
60:41 >> away from science because you know.
60:45 There are things that are knowable. Yeah, there are things that are
60:46 Yeah, there are things that are knowable. But
60:47 knowable. But >> Yeah. But
60:50 >> Yeah. But I don't know. I I I just think it's an
60:52 I don't know. I I I just think it's an interesting question for this time and I
60:54 interesting question for this time and I think it's an interesting question when
60:56 think it's an interesting question when you have a platform that's powerful.
60:58 you have a platform that's powerful. And I think if you're doing the best you
61:00 And I think if you're doing the best you can to make decisions based What What is
61:03 can to make decisions based What What is the question
61:05 the question >> [clears throat]
61:06 >> [clears throat] >> that drives your decision-making? For
61:08 >> that drives your decision-making? For me? No, like just in general. Yeah,
61:11 me? No, like just in general. Yeah, I got yours. You want you want to you
61:13 I got yours. You want you want to you want to help your listeners and you want
61:15 want to help your listeners and you want to do good. Yeah. Um that's a different
61:18 to do good. Yeah. Um that's a different thing than downloads.
61:20 thing than downloads. You can do both. You can do both. But if
61:23 You can do both. You can do both. But if your only filter Well, oh you you'd go
61:25 your only filter Well, oh you you'd go for [ __ ] total conspiracy. Yeah.
61:27 for [ __ ] total conspiracy. Yeah. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I
61:29 >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I just think it's I just think it's an
61:31 just think it's I just think it's an interesting question. I don't have an
61:32 interesting question. I don't have an answer. I just know that it's an
61:33 answer. I just know that it's an important question. Yeah, and you know
61:35 important question. Yeah, and you know what? I'll be honest so as um
61:37 what? I'll be honest so as um I mean we're not journalists we're not
61:39 I mean we're not journalists we're not journalists here. So we don't really
61:40 journalists here. So we don't really understand the rigor and I've got a lot
61:41 understand the rigor and I've got a lot of respect for journalists and the the
61:42 of respect for journalists and the the effort they've put in to understand the
61:43 effort they've put in to understand the journalistic method and all those
61:45 journalistic method and all those things. I feel like we're somewhat
61:46 things. I feel like we're somewhat catching up. We didn't this podcast went
61:47 catching up. We didn't this podcast went from zero to 70 million people a month
61:49 from zero to 70 million people a month in
61:50 in 4 and 1/2 years or something. Hard. So
61:53 4 and 1/2 years or something. Hard. So and we're just [ __ ] holding on. Like
61:54 and we're just [ __ ] holding on. Like me and Jack didn't run a podcast before.
61:55 me and Jack didn't run a podcast before. So I didn't run one before and so
61:58 So I didn't run one before and so we're now catching up and part of the
61:59 we're now catching up and part of the part of the way that we're shaped is
62:01 part of the way that we're shaped is with feedback and you get lots of
62:03 with feedback and you get lots of feedback. Don't have this person. I'll
62:04 feedback. Don't have this person. I'll never speak to this person again. Don't
62:05 never speak to this person again. Don't know. And you kind of get back that
62:07 know. And you kind of get back that stuff off but if there's any ever
62:08 stuff off but if there's any ever anything that actually feedback that
62:10 anything that actually feedback that actually isn't contra- contradiction
62:12 actually isn't contra- contradiction that does test your own mission or your
62:15 that does test your own mission or your own values, then you listen and you will
62:16 own values, then you listen and you will you know
62:17 you know you can start to innovate and one of the
62:19 you can start to innovate and one of the things that we thought was smart was to
62:20 things that we thought was smart was to have the pop-ups on screen which
62:22 have the pop-ups on screen which everybody is probably familiar with by
62:24 everybody is probably familiar with by now. And it's a balancing act. We don't
62:25 now. And it's a balancing act. We don't want to completely discredit everything
62:28 want to completely discredit everything that a guest has to say but we also just
62:29 that a guest has to say but we also just want to give context. And that's kind of
62:32 want to give context. And that's kind of context what they're saying. If
62:33 context what they're saying. If something's ridiculous we'll just remove
62:34 something's ridiculous we'll just remove it. Like if something's absolutely we
62:36 it. Like if something's absolutely we will not publish the episode is probably
62:37 will not publish the episode is probably a better way of saying it. We had a
62:38 a better way of saying it. We had a couple of episodes where people said
62:40 couple of episodes where people said some guest said some things which were
62:41 some guest said some things which were just
62:42 just absolutely [ __ ] crazy. You don't need
62:44 absolutely [ __ ] crazy. You don't need a PhD to know that
62:46 a PhD to know that you can't exercise by lying on the
62:47 you can't exercise by lying on the ground. Like I think this one guest had
62:48 ground. Like I think this one guest had said to me
62:50 said to me that you can build your muscles just by
62:51 that you can build your muscles just by laying on your back or whatever and
62:53 laying on your back or whatever and not doing anything. We just didn't
62:54 not doing anything. We just didn't publish the episode.
62:55 publish the episode. >> I can just say as a PhD that I have
62:58 >> I can just say as a PhD that I have attempted that.
63:00 attempted that. Yeah, it doesn't work. And it was FOR
63:01 Yeah, it doesn't work. And it was FOR JACK [ __ ]
63:02 JACK [ __ ] >> [laughter]
63:03 >> [laughter] >> I THINK JACK MADE A GOOD POINT. I GIVE
63:05 >> I THINK JACK MADE A GOOD POINT. I GIVE YOU A PHD on the just laying still.
63:07 YOU A PHD on the just laying still. Yeah.
63:08 Yeah. No, I think that I respect the approach.
63:11 No, I think that I respect the approach. And it's
63:11 And it's >> one of the reasons I decided to come on.
63:13 >> one of the reasons I decided to come on. Cuz I respect the approach. We're not
63:15 Cuz I respect the approach. We're not perfect but we're trying.
63:17 perfect but we're trying. And it's tough, you know.
63:18 And it's tough, you know. >> That's the thing that you're walking a
63:20 >> That's the thing that you're walking a path.
63:22 path. The world of business looks entirely
63:23 The world of business looks entirely different today than it did 15 years
63:25 different today than it did 15 years ago. Back then building a brand meant
63:27 ago. Back then building a brand meant having huge budgets, warehouses, office
63:28 having huge budgets, warehouses, office space and lots of lots of staff. But now
63:31 space and lots of lots of staff. But now you can start a business with your
63:32 you can start a business with your laptop, an idea and the right tools and
63:34 laptop, an idea and the right tools and I would know more so than anybody else
63:36 I would know more so than anybody else because that's exactly what I did.
63:37 because that's exactly what I did. Shopify is one of our long-standing
63:39 Shopify is one of our long-standing sponsors on the show and they're a brand
63:40 sponsors on the show and they're a brand I often refer people to when they're
63:42 I often refer people to when they're starting their businesses because it's a
63:44 starting their businesses because it's a tool that contains many more tools
63:45 tool that contains many more tools within itself. And when you're starting
63:47 within itself. And when you're starting out everything is everywhere. It's messy
63:50 out everything is everywhere. It's messy and it's confusing so having everything
63:51 and it's confusing so having everything in the same place is incredibly useful.
63:54 in the same place is incredibly useful. Shopify puts store design, payments,
63:55 Shopify puts store design, payments, inventory, shipping and even AI tools
63:58 inventory, shipping and even AI tools all in one place and you can sell
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64:11 shopify.com/bartlett and sign up for your $1 per month trial
64:14 and sign up for your $1 per month trial period. That's shopify.com/bartlett.
64:17 period. That's shopify.com/bartlett. On that point about me and vulnerability
64:20 On that point about me and vulnerability is vulnerability important? Cuz there's
64:22 is vulnerability important? Cuz there's a lot of performative vulnerability
64:23 a lot of performative vulnerability taking place in the
64:25 taking place in the Is is it an important thing for my
64:26 Is is it an important thing for my health, happiness
64:28 health, happiness my future to be a vulnerable person?
64:30 my future to be a vulnerable person? Well, let's define it. Um vulnerability
64:33 Well, let's define it. Um vulnerability is the emotion we experience when we
64:35 is the emotion we experience when we have when we are up against uncertainty
64:39 have when we are up against uncertainty risk and emotional exposure.
64:42 risk and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is what I feel.
64:44 So vulnerability is what I feel. It's the cringe.
64:46 It's the cringe. The awkward, the thing that I the
64:48 The awkward, the thing that I the emotion I feel in times of uncertainty,
64:51 emotion I feel in times of uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. So it was
64:54 risk or emotional exposure. So it was really interesting because I had a hard
64:56 really interesting because I had a hard time helping people understand because
64:59 time helping people understand because there's we are so raised to believe that
65:01 there's we are so raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness
65:03 vulnerability is weakness that it took a trip to Fort Bragg
65:05 that it took a trip to Fort Bragg working with special forces to ask
65:07 working with special forces to ask soldiers a question. Give me a single
65:10 soldiers a question. Give me a single example of courage in your life. One
65:13 example of courage in your life. One example that you've witnessed or you you
65:15 example that you've witnessed or you you yourself have done. One example of
65:17 yourself have done. One example of courage that did not require
65:19 courage that did not require uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure.
65:23 uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. No one could answer it. Finally a young
65:25 No one could answer it. Finally a young soldier stood up and said three tours.
65:27 soldier stood up and said three tours. There is no courage without
65:28 There is no courage without vulnerability. So is vulnerability
65:31 vulnerability. So is vulnerability important? It is if we want to be brave
65:33 important? It is if we want to be brave with our lives.
65:34 with our lives. If we if we want to be able to manage
65:37 If we if we want to be able to manage ourselves in a way
65:39 ourselves in a way that's values-aligned
65:41 that's values-aligned and courageous, we have to be able to
65:44 and courageous, we have to be able to reconcile how we feel when we're
65:48 reconcile how we feel when we're uncertain, at risk or exposed. I mean
65:51 uncertain, at risk or exposed. I mean and really weirdly
65:53 and really weirdly the next week after the trip to Fort
65:54 the next week after the trip to Fort Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks,
65:56 Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks, the football team, NFL team. Asked the
65:58 the football team, NFL team. Asked the players
66:00 players give me an example of courage on the
66:02 give me an example of courage on the field or off
66:03 field or off that did not require vulnerability.
66:05 that did not require vulnerability. They said that it's not possible. There
66:07 They said that it's not possible. There is no courage. Like if you're doing
66:10 is no courage. Like if you're doing things in your life in your work
66:13 things in your life in your work and there's no risk, no uncertainty
66:17 and there's no risk, no uncertainty and no exposure, then they're not brave.
66:20 and no exposure, then they're not brave. If you know how it's going to end
66:23 If you know how it's going to end that is not courage.
66:26 that is not courage. Courage is the willingness to show up
66:28 Courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict
66:30 and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome.
66:32 the outcome. Courage is saying I love you first.
66:36 Courage is saying I love you first. >> [snorts]
66:37 >> [snorts] >> That's you you want to know what
66:38 >> That's you you want to know what vulnerability is? I love you first. Have
66:40 vulnerability is? I love you first. Have you ever said I love you first?
66:51 Uh I'm not sure. Yeah. It's been a while.
66:51 while. >> But it's hard. It's you know.
66:53 >> But it's hard. It's you know. >> So I need to give context. It's been a
66:55 >> So I need to give context. It's been a while since I've been in that situation.
66:57 while since I've been in that situation. Well, you had to go first. Yeah, we're
66:59 Well, you had to go first. Yeah, we're not going to go first here. Yeah. I mean
67:00 not going to go first here. Yeah. I mean there's this great story that I tell
67:02 there's this great story that I tell about
67:04 about I I gave a talk here. It was actually in
67:06 I I gave a talk here. It was actually in LA and afterwards a kid came up to me.
67:08 LA and afterwards a kid came up to me. He's probably 22 or 23 and he said, "Can
67:10 He's probably 22 or 23 and he said, "Can I tell you a story about your work and
67:11 I tell you a story about your work and how it's really changed my life?" And I
67:13 how it's really changed my life?" And I was like, "Sure." And a kind of crowd
67:15 was like, "Sure." And a kind of crowd grew around and this is like the last
67:18 grew around and this is like the last time I ever got penned like not being
67:20 time I ever got penned like not being able to exit a stage
67:22 able to exit a stage because it was such a traumatic It
67:23 because it was such a traumatic It wasn't traumatic but it was like he
67:24 wasn't traumatic but it was like he said, "Well, I was dating this woman
67:28 said, "Well, I was dating this woman and I was so crazy about her. So I took
67:31 and I was so crazy about her. So I took her to eat to our favorite restaurant
67:33 her to eat to our favorite restaurant and I waited until the dessert came
67:35 and I waited until the dessert came because we love this chocolate volcano
67:37 because we love this chocolate volcano and I ordered it and I said,
67:40 and I ordered it and I said, "I love you."
67:42 "I love you." And she looked at me and she said, "I
67:44 And she looked at me and she said, "I think you're awesome.
67:51 And I think we should date other people."
67:59 And so I was like, "God damn, this is the worst story I've ever
68:00 the worst story I've ever >> [laughter]
68:01 >> [laughter] >> This is not a good story." And he said,
68:05 >> This is not a good story." And he said, "So I got in my car and I drove home and
68:08 "So I got in my car and I drove home and the whole way home
68:09 the whole way home I just kept saying to myself over and
68:11 I just kept saying to myself over and over, [ __ ] Brené Brown. [ __ ] Brené
68:14 over, [ __ ] Brené Brown. [ __ ] Brené Brown."
68:15 Brown." I'm like,
68:17 I'm like, "When does this When When's the turn on
68:18 "When does this When When's the turn on the story, you know?" And he said, "I
68:20 the story, you know?" And he said, "I got home and I walked into my apartment
68:23 got home and I walked into my apartment and I pushed the door open
68:25 and I pushed the door open and both my roommates were wired in and
68:27 and both my roommates were wired in and they were on their computers and they
68:28 they were on their computers and they looked up and said, 'Dude, what's going
68:30 looked up and said, 'Dude, what's going on?'"
68:31 on?'" And he said,
68:32 And he said, "I told her I loved her
68:34 "I told her I loved her and she told me I was awesome."
68:36 and she told me I was awesome." And one of my roommates looked at me and
68:38 And one of my roommates looked at me and said, "What the [ __ ] were you thinking?
68:40 said, "What the [ __ ] were you thinking? That's not how it works. When you are
68:43 That's not how it works. When you are going toward them, they go away. So
68:46 going toward them, they go away. So you're always kind of going away so they
68:49 you're always kind of going away so they come toward you." And he goes, "Oh. Oh,
68:52 come toward you." And he goes, "Oh. Oh, no.
68:54 no. No.
68:55 No. I don't want to I don't want to be that
68:56 I don't want to I don't want to be that dude.
68:58 dude. I was daring greatly."
69:01 I was daring greatly." And he said both of his roommates just
69:02 And he said both of his roommates just got teary-eyed and went, "Right on, man.
69:06 got teary-eyed and went, "Right on, man. Right on." Like
69:09 Right on." Like there is no courage without
69:10 there is no courage without vulnerability.
69:12 vulnerability. How can you say you're brave
69:14 How can you say you're brave if you're not putting yourself out
69:15 if you're not putting yourself out there?
69:17 there? So many people have been through things
69:18 So many people have been through things which have made it very, very difficult
69:20 which have made it very, very difficult for them to be
69:22 for them to be vulnerable.
69:23 vulnerable. I was speaking to someone yesterday who
69:25 I was speaking to someone yesterday who was cheated on
69:27 was cheated on bunch of attachment issues in their
69:29 bunch of attachment issues in their early childhood. And funnily enough,
69:31 early childhood. And funnily enough, when I was talking to her about I was
69:33 when I was talking to her about I was asking her questions about cuz I'm very
69:35 asking her questions about cuz I'm very deep personal I just carries over into
69:37 deep personal I just carries over into my personal life. I was asking her
69:38 my personal life. I was asking her questions about the things you know
69:40 questions about the things you know she'd been through and whatever else.
69:41 she'd been through and whatever else. She just shuts down. And she told me
69:43 She just shuts down. And she told me that she she um
69:44 that she she um >> [clears throat]
69:45 >> [clears throat] >> What were the exact words? She said that
69:47 >> What were the exact words? She said that she finds vulnerability
69:50 she finds vulnerability to be a form of intimacy that she tries
69:54 to be a form of intimacy that she tries to stay away from because
69:57 to stay away from because she needs to really really really trust
69:59 she needs to really really really trust the person before she opens up. And I
70:01 the person before she opens up. And I think this is a trend you see across a
70:02 think this is a trend you see across a lot of people they
70:03 lot of people they they won't open up enough to form a
70:05 they won't open up enough to form a connection
70:06 connection because they've been hurt before by
70:08 because they've been hurt before by opening up.
70:09 opening up. And it feels too scary to do that. And
70:11 And it feels too scary to do that. And that results in them being single,
70:14 that results in them being single, alone, unhappy,
70:17 alone, unhappy, so on and so on.
70:19 so on and so on. Yeah, I mean I think there's there what
70:21 Yeah, I mean I think there's there what you said was so loaded
70:24 you said was so loaded with so many things. So first of all,
70:25 with so many things. So first of all, there's there there there's this very
70:27 there's there there there's this very interesting relationship between
70:28 interesting relationship between vulnerability and trust.
70:30 vulnerability and trust. And how does that work? And
70:32 And how does that work? And people always ask me what comes first,
70:34 people always ask me what comes first, trust or vulnerability? Do I trust you
70:36 trust or vulnerability? Do I trust you first then I'm vulnerable or am I
70:37 first then I'm vulnerable or am I vulnerable first and then I trust you?
70:39 vulnerable first and then I trust you? And I think it's a very slow stacking.
70:41 And I think it's a very slow stacking. We get to know each other. I share a
70:43 We get to know each other. I share a little bit. I don't I don't share Hey,
70:45 little bit. I don't I don't share Hey, nice to meet you Steven. Here's my
70:46 nice to meet you Steven. Here's my darkest horrible most painful trauma,
70:50 darkest horrible most painful trauma, you know, cuz that that is actually
70:52 you know, cuz that that is actually that kind of litmus testing is actually
70:55 that kind of litmus testing is actually a form of armor. I'm going to throw
70:57 a form of armor. I'm going to throw something at you
70:59 something at you that our relationship in no way has been
71:01 that our relationship in no way has been built long enough to hold. You're going
71:03 built long enough to hold. You're going to go away and I'm going to use that as
71:06 to go away and I'm going to use that as verification that vulnerability is
71:07 verification that vulnerability is dangerous. Like That's litmus testing.
71:10 dangerous. Like That's litmus testing. Mhm. Let me prove to you
71:12 Mhm. Let me prove to you that you're not trustworthy. Na na na na
71:14 that you're not trustworthy. Na na na na na na na Oh, I see you're backing away.
71:17 na na na Oh, I see you're backing away. That's what I thought.
71:18 That's what I thought. I'm backing away because we haven't
71:19 I'm backing away because we haven't built a relationship that can bear the
71:21 built a relationship that can bear the weight of this story.
71:23 weight of this story. Can we start Can we start small? Okay.
71:26 Can we start Can we start small? Okay. Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability,
71:28 Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust.
71:30 trust, vulnerability, trust. Mhm.
71:31 Mhm. >> [clears throat]
71:31 >> [clears throat] >> I think
71:33 >> I think I get in that in my work we call that
71:34 I get in that in my work we call that like the smash and grab. Like I'm going
71:37 like the smash and grab. Like I'm going to I'm going to hit you with something
71:38 to I'm going to hit you with something really big and then watch you go away
71:40 really big and then watch you go away and use it as evidence.
71:43 and use it as evidence. Mhm. Yeah.
71:44 Mhm. Yeah. And it takes a really skilled person to
71:46 And it takes a really skilled person to say
71:47 say yeah, I'm really
71:50 yeah, I'm really I'm taking in what you told me. I want
71:51 I'm taking in what you told me. I want to be respectful and honor that.
71:53 to be respectful and honor that. And
71:55 And I don't have a way to file it right now
71:56 I don't have a way to file it right now cuz I don't know you well enough.
71:59 cuz I don't know you well enough. So I appreciate the share I mean we also
72:01 So I appreciate the share I mean we also call it spotlighting. So like if I had a
72:03 call it spotlighting. So like if I had a military grade spotlight that they use
72:05 military grade spotlight that they use in the wilderness. I work with the
72:06 in the wilderness. I work with the military a lot. And I I picked it up and
72:10 military a lot. And I I picked it up and put it in your face right here. What
72:12 put it in your face right here. What would you do physically? Uh
72:14 would you do physically? Uh That's what that's our reaction to too
72:15 That's what that's our reaction to too much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like
72:18 much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like yeah, I don't know I don't know you.
72:20 yeah, I don't know I don't know you. Yeah. Um
72:21 Yeah. Um So you're talking about the slow
72:23 So you're talking about the slow stacking of courage and of vulnerability
72:25 stacking of courage and of vulnerability and trust. And then you're also talking
72:26 and trust. And then you're also talking about that when
72:29 about that when >> [clears throat]
72:30 >> [clears throat] >> when we've had a lot of hard things
72:32 >> when we've had a lot of hard things happen to us,
72:33 happen to us, I think this is where I really believe
72:35 I think this is where I really believe in the democratization of coaching and
72:37 in the democratization of coaching and therapy that a lot of times we have to
72:40 therapy that a lot of times we have to work with people. Like we have to get
72:42 work with people. Like we have to get help
72:43 help to be able to open up and take off some
72:45 to be able to open up and take off some of the armor that we put on because
72:47 of the armor that we put on because sometimes that armor
72:49 sometimes that armor that we put on is freaking survival.
72:53 that we put on is freaking survival. I mean and you want to start adding you
72:55 I mean and you want to start adding you want to start adding variables like
72:56 want to start adding variables like race,
72:58 race, gender,
72:59 gender, like you know,
73:01 like you know, any anything where there's social
73:04 any anything where there's social systems also at play. That's survival.
73:06 systems also at play. That's survival. Like telling me right now at my career
73:10 Like telling me right now at my career like hey, you should be vulnerable with
73:12 like hey, you should be vulnerable with your new team. And and talk about your
73:14 your new team. And and talk about your previous failures, you know. Well, of
73:16 previous failures, you know. Well, of course I could do that and I would do it
73:18 course I could do that and I would do it and everybody would clap and they'd
73:19 and everybody would clap and they'd think man, she's so brave. And take the
73:21 think man, she's so brave. And take the new person who's a young black woman or
73:24 new person who's a young black woman or the new first LGBTQ person on a team and
73:26 the new first LGBTQ person on a team and say hey, tell tell every Don't tell
73:28 say hey, tell tell every Don't tell anybody [ __ ]
73:31 anybody [ __ ] Develop trust first.
73:34 Develop trust first. Develop uh see how how trust your own
73:37 Develop uh see how how trust your own instincts about the accountability of
73:39 instincts about the accountability of this group to hold themselves
73:40 this group to hold themselves accountable for their behavior. Like
73:43 accountable for their behavior. Like vulnerability
73:44 vulnerability is not more necessary for any of us than
73:47 is not more necessary for any of us than anybody else, but certainly more
73:49 anybody else, but certainly more difficult for other for for some people
73:51 difficult for other for for some people for sure.
73:52 for sure. And I think
73:54 And I think what's hard about that, what's so
73:56 what's hard about that, what's so painful, probably the most painful part
73:58 painful, probably the most painful part of my career
73:59 of my career is that
74:01 is that regardless of why the armor is on,
74:04 regardless of why the armor is on, without vulnerability you cannot access
74:09 without vulnerability you cannot access the experiences that are the most
74:11 the experiences that are the most meaningful in life.
74:12 meaningful in life. Love.
74:14 Love. To love someone is to be vulnerable from
74:16 To love someone is to be vulnerable from the time you wake up to the time you go
74:17 the time you wake up to the time you go to bed. You know that, you're in a
74:18 to bed. You know that, you're in a relationship. To love is to be
74:20 relationship. To love is to be vulnerable, right?
74:21 vulnerable, right? >> Mhm.
74:21 >> Mhm. >> [clears throat]
74:22 >> [clears throat] >> And have you ever buried someone you
74:23 >> And have you ever buried someone you loved?
74:25 loved? Like I lost my mom 2 years ago. Like
74:27 Like I lost my mom 2 years ago. Like my kids it's like having your heart live
74:29 my kids it's like having your heart live outside of your body. Like to love is to
74:32 outside of your body. Like to love is to be vulnerable cuz it's to risk grief and
74:34 be vulnerable cuz it's to risk grief and losing.
74:35 losing. Belonging is vulnerable. The most The
74:38 Belonging is vulnerable. The most The most vulnerable human emotion?
74:41 most vulnerable human emotion? Joy.
74:43 Joy. Joy is so vulnerable
74:45 Joy is so vulnerable that when some of us get close to it, we
74:48 that when some of us get close to it, we dress rehearse tragedy
74:51 dress rehearse tragedy to prepare for disappointment.
74:54 to prepare for disappointment. Like it's so vulnerable that we don't
74:56 Like it's so vulnerable that we don't even let ourselves feel joy because
74:59 even let ourselves feel joy because we're so afraid someone's going to rip
75:00 we're so afraid someone's going to rip it away and we're going to get sucker
75:01 it away and we're going to get sucker punched by disappointment.
75:04 punched by disappointment. Yes or no? Like people choose to live
75:07 Yes or no? Like people choose to live disappointed
75:09 disappointed rather than to feel disappoint risk
75:11 rather than to feel disappoint risk feeling disappointed and get excited
75:12 feeling disappointed and get excited about something.
75:14 about something. You know, it's like the first time my
75:15 You know, it's like the first time my kids shared with me when they were
75:17 kids shared with me when they were young,
75:18 young, certainly not the way I was raised, but
75:20 certainly not the way I was raised, but you know, I I really really want to make
75:22 you know, I I really really want to make this team, Mom.
75:24 this team, Mom. And I said
75:25 And I said I want to pause you for a second
75:27 I want to pause you for a second and tell you how brave it is
75:30 and tell you how brave it is to talk openly about something you want
75:32 to talk openly about something you want so much when you don't have control over
75:34 so much when you don't have control over whether you get it or not.
75:36 whether you get it or not. I want I want it for you because you
75:38 I want I want it for you because you want it, but regardless of what happens,
75:40 want it, but regardless of what happens, I admire your courage for wanting
75:42 I admire your courage for wanting something and sharing out loud that you
75:45 something and sharing out loud that you want it.
75:46 want it. Because if you don't get it, I'll know
75:48 Because if you don't get it, I'll know that it was a crushing blow.
75:51 that it was a crushing blow. But that's so great because I'll be here
75:53 But that's so great because I'll be here for you when that happens either way.
75:56 for you when that happens either way. So we And I And I'm really I'm a really
76:00 So we And I And I'm really I'm a really I'm I we call it foreboding joy.
76:02 I'm I we call it foreboding joy. That joy is so good
76:04 That joy is so good we're just waiting for the other shoe to
76:05 we're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And people who have trauma
76:07 drop. And people who have trauma histories are really like that. Like for
76:09 histories are really like that. Like for me
76:11 me cuz of the way I was raised,
76:14 cuz of the way I was raised, when something good happens, I'm like oh
76:15 when something good happens, I'm like oh god, now what's going to happen?
76:17 god, now what's going to happen? Statistically, bad shit's going to roll
76:19 Statistically, bad shit's going to roll around any second now.
76:21 around any second now. And it's interesting cuz the group of
76:23 And it's interesting cuz the group of people that we researched, the only
76:25 people that we researched, the only group of people
76:26 group of people that could take that You know, there's a
76:28 that could take that You know, there's a bodily quiver, right? Of vulnerability.
76:30 bodily quiver, right? Of vulnerability. Do you have you felt it?
76:31 Do you have you felt it? >> Yeah. Yeah.
76:32 >> Yeah. Yeah. The only people that can really lean
76:35 The only people that can really lean into joy consistently are people who use
76:38 into joy consistently are people who use that vulnerability quiver
76:41 that vulnerability quiver as a reminder to be grateful.
76:44 as a reminder to be grateful. To be able to practice gratitude in that
76:46 To be able to practice gratitude in that second. So gratitude is a huge
76:50 second. So gratitude is a huge enabler of joy. Is that automatic or can
76:53 enabler of joy. Is that automatic or can one train that?
76:54 one train that? >> No, it's a training. Oh [ __ ] no I had
76:55 >> No, it's a training. Oh [ __ ] no I had to
76:56 to I mean
76:58 I mean standing at my front door
77:00 standing at my front door watching
77:02 watching my 16-year-old daughter walk down the
77:05 my 16-year-old daughter walk down the sidewalk with her boyfriend in high
77:06 sidewalk with her boyfriend in high school and get in his truck for for
77:08 school and get in his truck for for prom, right?
77:10 prom, right? And I'm standing there and I'm like
77:13 And I'm standing there and I'm like oh god.
77:15 oh god. And you know, what am I worried about?
77:16 And you know, what am I worried about? You know, prom night.
77:18 You know, prom night. Like car wreck, right?
77:20 Like car wreck, right? Of course like I when I tell the story
77:21 Of course like I when I tell the story the military's always like pregnancy.
77:22 the military's always like pregnancy. I'm like no no no no no, car wreck. And
77:25 I'm like no no no no no, car wreck. And so I just remember staying there and she
77:26 so I just remember staying there and she gets in and and I'm staying next to
77:29 gets in and and I'm staying next to Steve and Charlie
77:31 Steve and Charlie my my son's, you know, at this time he's
77:33 my my son's, you know, at this time he's 10. And I'm like I'm so grateful. I'm so
77:36 10. And I'm like I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for this moment.
77:37 grateful. I'm grateful for this moment. I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm
77:39 I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm grateful that they did the corsage and
77:41 grateful that they did the corsage and the boutonniere over here. I'm grateful
77:43 the boutonniere over here. I'm grateful that I got to help pick out the dress.
77:44 that I got to help pick out the dress. I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes
77:48 I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom?
77:50 looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom? Um and Steve goes, she's she's
77:52 Um and Steve goes, she's she's practicing gratitude. Let her do it
77:54 practicing gratitude. Let her do it otherwise she's going to be on a crazy
77:55 otherwise she's going to be on a crazy train. It's going to be all hell and you
77:57 train. It's going to be all hell and you know, like cuz part of me wants to say
77:59 know, like cuz part of me wants to say oh god.
78:00 oh god. Oh god.
78:02 Oh god. Like so beautiful and so joyful.
78:04 Like so beautiful and so joyful. And get in your truck and follow them
78:06 And get in your truck and follow them right now. If he's speeding, I want to
78:08 right now. If he's speeding, I want to know about it. If he's not stopping
78:09 know about it. If he's not stopping fully to stop sign, follow them until
78:11 fully to stop sign, follow them until this date is over. You know, that's
78:13 this date is over. You know, that's that's what I want to do.
78:15 that's what I want to do. Cuz I'm afraid.
78:17 Cuz I'm afraid. Cuz that that joy of that moment was
78:19 Cuz that that joy of that moment was just too much for me.
78:24 Too vulnerable. It appears you've overcome
78:26 overcome various traits of old
78:28 various traits of old Rene Brown.
78:30 Rene Brown. No, I'm overcoming. Overcoming? No, I'm
78:32 No, I'm overcoming. Overcoming? No, I'm not over I I not overcome. Have you
78:33 not over I I not overcome. Have you overcome anything?
78:36 overcome anything? Yes, a belief that I will overcome
78:37 Yes, a belief that I will overcome anything. I've overcome the belief that
78:41 anything. I've overcome the belief that I have overcome the belief that
78:49 I will ever arrive. I am grateful for the skills that I have
78:52 I am grateful for the skills that I have that are new skills that keep me more
78:55 that are new skills that keep me more aligned with the person, the mom, the
78:56 aligned with the person, the mom, the partner, the leader that I want to be.
78:59 partner, the leader that I want to be. But I
79:00 But I I
79:02 I am
79:03 am mindful of all the I try to stay very
79:05 mindful of all the I try to stay very mindful that I am scary when I'm scared.
79:09 mindful that I am scary when I'm scared. That I catastrophize very very easily
79:12 That I catastrophize very very easily and that's painful for everybody around
79:13 and that's painful for everybody around me.
79:14 me. And I don't need to be liked. I just
79:16 And I don't need to be liked. I just need to be myself. Like But those are
79:18 need to be myself. Like But those are things
79:20 things cuz I will I will sit down like 2 days
79:22 cuz I will I will sit down like 2 days ago and like, "Oh my god, it'd be so
79:23 ago and like, "Oh my god, it'd be so freaking easy to be liked here."
79:26 freaking easy to be liked here." I was like, "This will be This would be
79:27 I was like, "This will be This would be a piece of cake." And I'm like, "Shit, I
79:29 a piece of cake." And I'm like, "Shit, I don't do that anymore. Bummer."
79:31 don't do that anymore. Bummer." 2 days ago? Yeah. Out of what?
79:34 2 days ago? Yeah. Out of what? Just with a group of people that I knew
79:35 Just with a group of people that I knew what it would take to be liked.
79:37 what it would take to be liked. And you made the choice to
79:39 And you made the choice to >> Just to be myself.
79:40 >> Just to be myself. >> Yeah.
79:41 >> Yeah. Why?
79:43 Why? Because now the person I'm going to
79:44 Because now the person I'm going to betray
79:46 betray last is me.
79:52 Yeah, I hope I see you again, but not that important.
79:54 not that important. Some people might find that somewhat
79:56 Some people might find that somewhat demoralizing to know that they they too
79:58 demoralizing to know that they they too might never cure
80:01 might never cure parts of themselves that they're
80:02 parts of themselves that they're desperate to change. I think people, you
80:04 desperate to change. I think people, you know, they often come to podcasts like
80:05 know, they often come to podcasts like this or read books like yours looking
80:07 this or read books like yours looking for solutions fixes
80:10 for solutions fixes to not liking myself, to the way that I
80:12 to not liking myself, to the way that I react to my emotions. They want to fix
80:14 react to my emotions. They want to fix it.
80:15 it. Cuz if they can fix it, then they can be
80:17 Cuz if they can fix it, then they can be happy. I don't think that's in the
80:18 happy. I don't think that's in the consideration set.
80:20 consideration set. For a very
80:23 For a very beautiful reason.
80:25 beautiful reason. >> [clears throat]
80:27 >> [clears throat] >> That if we could fix it
80:30 >> That if we could fix it and never have to wrestle with it again
80:34 and never have to wrestle with it again we would be so short on grace
80:37 we would be so short on grace for other people.
80:39 for other people. That we would be
80:42 That we would be tyrants.
80:46 So, you think it it creates a form of empathy for others? Yeah. I mean, like
80:49 empathy for others? Yeah. I mean, like I'm not going to I have like really
80:51 I'm not going to I have like really serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary
80:52 serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary person. But when I see someone behaving
80:55 person. But when I see someone behaving a certain way, I was like, "Uh, my
80:57 a certain way, I was like, "Uh, my [ __ ] sees
80:59 [ __ ] sees your inner [ __ ] right here. I get I
81:00 your inner [ __ ] right here. I get I get it I get what you're doing. I'm not
81:01 get it I get what you're doing. I'm not going to tolerate it. I'm going to set a
81:03 going to tolerate it. I'm going to set a boundary around it.
81:05 boundary around it. But I'm not really judging you for it.
81:06 But I'm not really judging you for it. It's just that behavior's not okay right
81:08 It's just that behavior's not okay right here." But you like yourself now?
81:17 Yeah. Yeah.
81:18 Yeah. I do.
81:19 I do. I I
81:29 I do. I can I can
81:31 I can I can I can I think I can say that pretty
81:34 I can I think I can say that pretty I like what I'm becoming.
81:36 I like what I'm becoming. And for anyone that doesn't like
81:37 And for anyone that doesn't like themselves, what what work has had to go
81:39 themselves, what what work has had to go into getting to the point where you like
81:40 into getting to the point where you like what you you're becoming?
81:56 maybe one of the biggest findings of my research over the last 25 years is it's
82:00 research over the last 25 years is it's not
82:01 not fear that gets in the way of us being
82:03 fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work.
82:06 brave with our lives and our work. It's armor.
82:08 It's armor. Everybody's afraid.
82:09 Everybody's afraid. It's okay to be afraid.
82:11 It's okay to be afraid. What's dangerous is the armor that we
82:13 What's dangerous is the armor that we reach for to self-protect when we're
82:15 reach for to self-protect when we're afraid.
82:16 afraid. And how that armor moves us
82:19 And how that armor moves us away from
82:21 away from love, connection
82:23 love, connection and our values. And so,
82:26 and our values. And so, I think the hardest work is
82:30 I think the hardest work is for me
82:31 for me constantly being aware of what is my
82:34 constantly being aware of what is my armor. What am I What am I grabbing for
82:36 armor. What am I What am I grabbing for when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for
82:39 when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for when I want to protect my sense of
82:40 when I want to protect my sense of self-worth, my ego? Like and and how
82:44 self-worth, my ego? Like and and how heavy that [ __ ] is.
82:47 heavy that [ __ ] is. You know, at some point I had to wear
82:49 You know, at some point I had to wear it.
82:50 it. Because that was survival for me growing
82:53 Because that was survival for me growing up.
82:54 up. But this is the big This is the big
83:03 developmental milestone of middle age, which you are squarely in
83:05 of middle age, which you are squarely in train.
83:06 train. Which is kind of when the universe grabs
83:09 Which is kind of when the universe grabs you by the shoulders and pulls you
83:11 you by the shoulders and pulls you really close
83:13 really close and says
83:14 and says "I'm not [ __ ] around anymore.
83:17 "I'm not [ __ ] around anymore. I gave you gifts.
83:19 I gave you gifts. Choosing not to grow into them is not
83:22 Choosing not to grow into them is not benign.
83:27 There's a consequence for that. And your armor is getting in the way.
83:30 armor is getting in the way. You're grown-ass person now.
83:33 You're grown-ass person now. You have different choices.
83:35 You have different choices. Let go of what doesn't serve."
83:42 And that is the big milestone, I think, that we have to wrestle with in midlife.
83:46 that we have to wrestle with in midlife. What no longer serves that's preventing
83:49 What no longer serves that's preventing us from growing into who we want to be.
83:52 us from growing into who we want to be. And is that where vulnerability comes
83:53 And is that where vulnerability comes into the picture? Oh, for sure. Cuz all
83:55 into the picture? Oh, for sure. Cuz all the armor
83:56 the armor all the armor
83:58 all the armor is about vulnerability.
84:01 is about vulnerability. It requires a huge amount of um I was
84:03 It requires a huge amount of um I was going to say self-awareness.
84:05 going to say self-awareness. Yes.
84:06 Yes. >> That some people just don't could
84:07 >> That some people just don't could probably never accomplish. I mean
84:17 I mean most of us can understand
84:19 most of us can understand if you back me into an emotional corner
84:23 if you back me into an emotional corner what are you going to get?
84:25 what are you going to get? Like as a leader, I know my armor,
84:27 Like as a leader, I know my armor, perfectionism, micromanagement. I get
84:29 perfectionism, micromanagement. I get super intensive. I get recklessly
84:31 super intensive. I get recklessly decisive.
84:34 decisive. I know my armor.
84:35 I know my armor. And my team knows my armor.
84:41 I think my armor in my personal life, especially
84:43 my armor in my personal life, especially when it comes to my kids, when I get
84:46 when it comes to my kids, when I get when I feel vulnerable
84:48 when I feel vulnerable is control, control, control.
84:52 is control, control, control. Take over all the chess pieces.
84:55 Take over all the chess pieces. But that's
84:57 But that's not a good idea.
84:58 not a good idea. It's not possible. Hm. It's just It's
85:01 It's not possible. Hm. It's just It's just pretend. That's called anxiety.
85:04 just pretend. That's called anxiety. Like pretending that you can control the
85:05 Like pretending that you can control the chessboard of other people's lives, let
85:07 chessboard of other people's lives, let alone your own, much less other people's
85:09 alone your own, much less other people's lives. But I think I do it out of
85:21 Is fear the opposite of courage? Or is it?
85:22 courage? Or is it? No, I think the opposite of courage is
85:24 No, I think the opposite of courage is armor.
85:25 armor. Armor, okay. I think the opposite of
85:27 Armor, okay. I think the opposite of courage is self-protection.
85:30 courage is self-protection. To be courageous in this context,
85:31 To be courageous in this context, whether it's as a leader or in another
85:33 whether it's as a leader or in another environment, you talk about these four
85:35 environment, you talk about these four steps to courage. You talk about it in
85:36 steps to courage. You talk about it in Strong Ground.
85:38 Strong Ground. Yeah.
85:39 Yeah. This was research that emerged like 15
85:40 This was research that emerged like 15 years ago, and I was really really
85:43 years ago, and I was really really nervous cuz I'm a grounded theory
85:44 nervous cuz I'm a grounded theory researcher. I'm a qualitative
85:45 researcher. I'm a qualitative researcher. So, a grounded theory is
85:48 researcher. So, a grounded theory is only as good as its ability to work new
85:50 only as good as its ability to work new data. So, you develop a hypothesis or a
85:52 data. So, you develop a hypothesis or a theory based on data. And then as you
85:55 theory based on data. And then as you collect more data, does the hypothesis
85:58 collect more data, does the hypothesis hold? And, you know, this we collected
86:01 hold? And, you know, this we collected that data pre-pandemic.
86:03 that data pre-pandemic. You know,
86:05 You know, pre pre a lot of things. And so, I was
86:09 pre pre a lot of things. And so, I was really worried about the four skill sets
86:10 really worried about the four skill sets of courage, which are
86:13 of courage, which are identifying and understanding your core
86:15 identifying and understanding your core values.
86:17 values. I would love to do this exercise with
86:18 I would love to do this exercise with you sometime.
86:19 you sometime. Um two,
86:21 Um two, understanding what gets in the way of
86:23 understanding what gets in the way of you wrestling with vulnerability, kind
86:25 you wrestling with vulnerability, kind of owning it and moving through it
86:27 of owning it and moving through it constructively.
86:28 constructively. Three, how to build trust and how to
86:30 Three, how to build trust and how to become super important trustworthy to
86:33 become super important trustworthy to yourself. Self-trust.
86:36 yourself. Self-trust. Because one of the first casualties of
86:38 Because one of the first casualties of failure or disappointment or setback is
86:42 failure or disappointment or setback is we lose
86:43 we lose our our ability to trust ourselves.
86:46 our our ability to trust ourselves. Our ability to make good decisions. Our
86:48 Our ability to make good decisions. Our ability to take care of ourselves. And
86:49 ability to take care of ourselves. And the last one, which is my favorite
86:52 the last one, which is my favorite because [snorts]
86:53 because [snorts] it can really I've seen it really change
86:54 it can really I've seen it really change an organization is
86:56 an organization is how to get back up after failure and
86:58 how to get back up after failure and disappointment. How to reset. How to be
87:02 disappointment. How to reset. How to be how to manage your own bounce when hard
87:04 how to manage your own bounce when hard [ __ ] happens.
87:07 [ __ ] happens. So, those are the four skill sets of
87:08 So, those are the four skill sets of courage. Again,
87:10 courage. Again, evidence-based
87:12 evidence-based observable, measurable, and teachable.
87:14 observable, measurable, and teachable. We've taken 165,000
87:17 We've taken 165,000 people through this work across 45
87:19 people through this work across 45 countries.
87:21 countries. Collected data on all of it. It's so
87:23 Collected data on all of it. It's so exciting. And it withstood all of the
87:26 exciting. And it withstood all of the complex changes over the last 5 years,
87:30 complex changes over the last 5 years, including AI.
87:32 including AI. Organizational because this is where we
87:33 Organizational because this is where we do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist
87:34 do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist or clinician. I don't work with like
87:36 or clinician. I don't work with like families or individuals. I mean, I have
87:37 families or individuals. I mean, I have a therapist, but I'm not one.
87:39 a therapist, but I'm not one. Um so, I think
87:46 you can develop skirt courage skills. The the third point is braving trust.
87:48 The the third point is braving trust. Yeah. And I've heard about your marble
87:50 Yeah. And I've heard about your marble jar theory. So, I've got a jar of
87:51 jar theory. So, I've got a jar of marbles.
87:52 marbles. >> that. Um could you explain to me what
87:54 >> that. Um could you explain to me what your marble jar You look at how excited
87:56 your marble jar You look at how excited you are. I know.
87:58 you are. I know. Um so, this comes You know, where where
88:00 Um so, this comes You know, where where is where where do I get my information?
88:02 is where where do I get my information? Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She
88:04 Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She comes home from school. Mhm. The front
88:06 comes home from school. Mhm. The front [clears throat] door closes. She slides
88:08 [clears throat] door closes. She slides down the door into a heap sobbing.
88:11 down the door into a heap sobbing. I'm like, "God, Ellen, are you okay? Are
88:12 I'm like, "God, Ellen, are you okay? Are you hurt? What's going on?" She says
88:15 you hurt? What's going on?" She says that
88:17 that something hard happened.
88:19 something hard happened. She shared it like very confidentially
88:21 She shared it like very confidentially with one or two of her friends during
88:22 with one or two of her friends during recess.
88:23 recess. When she got back to the classroom
88:26 When she got back to the classroom they had told everybody in her class,
88:27 they had told everybody in her class, all 30 kids.
88:29 all 30 kids. Everybody was laughing and pointing and
88:31 Everybody was laughing and pointing and making fun of her.
88:33 making fun of her. And she said, "I will never trust anyone
88:35 And she said, "I will never trust anyone again."
88:37 again." And my response immediately to my in my
88:39 And my response immediately to my in my mind was, "Damn straight. Not [ __ ]
88:42 mind was, "Damn straight. Not [ __ ] person. You trust your mama, and that's
88:44 person. You trust your mama, and that's it." Like that was my response. But
88:46 it." Like that was my response. But again,
88:47 again, that's not the right thing to do, right?
88:50 that's not the right thing to do, right? You want a kid who can develop trust
88:51 You want a kid who can develop trust with others. So, I said, "Trust is
88:54 with others. So, I said, "Trust is really hard." She said, "I don't
88:55 really hard." She said, "I don't understand it."
88:57 understand it." And her teacher at the time, Mrs.
88:58 And her teacher at the time, Mrs. Bockum, had a mar- a marble jar.
89:01 Bockum, had a mar- a marble jar. And when the team when the when the
89:04 And when the team when the when the class would collectively make good
89:05 class would collectively make good decisions, she would put marbles in this
89:07 decisions, she would put marbles in this empty jar. And when it got full, they'd
89:09 empty jar. And when it got full, they'd have an extra recess and party. Mhm.
89:12 have an extra recess and party. Mhm. And [clears throat] so, immediately what
89:13 And [clears throat] so, immediately what came to me, cuz I'm describing trust,
89:15 came to me, cuz I'm describing trust, which is a hard concept to a fourth
89:17 which is a hard concept to a fourth grader. I said, "Trust is the marble
89:19 grader. I said, "Trust is the marble jar."
89:20 jar." She's like, "What do you mean?" And I
89:21 She's like, "What do you mean?" And I said,
89:23 said, "Every time you share somebody something
89:24 "Every time you share somebody something with someone that's confidential and
89:26 with someone that's confidential and they don't share it, they get a marble.
89:28 they don't share it, they get a marble. Every time you build trust,
89:30 Every time you build trust, when you want to share something really
89:32 when you want to share something really private and personal, you look for a
89:34 private and personal, you look for a friend whose jar is full of marbles."
89:37 friend whose jar is full of marbles." "Do you have any marble jar friends?"
89:39 "Do you have any marble jar friends?" She's like, "Not the ones I shared with
89:41 She's like, "Not the ones I shared with today." And I said, "Who are your marble
89:42 today." And I said, "Who are your marble jar friends?" And she said, "Hannah and
89:44 jar friends?" And she said, "Hannah and Lorna." And I said, "Tell me something
89:46 Lorna." And I said, "Tell me something they do to earn marbles." "Oh, well,
89:48 they do to earn marbles." "Oh, well, like if I get to my tray late at lunch
89:51 like if I get to my tray late at lunch and there's no place to sit, Lorna will
89:53 and there's no place to sit, Lorna will scoot over and give me half her seat and
89:54 scoot over and give me half her seat and then we just share one seat and I can
89:56 then we just share one seat and I can sit at the table. And then the other day
89:59 sit at the table. And then the other day when I had strep throat, Hannah was
90:01 when I had strep throat, Hannah was worried about me. So remember her mom
90:03 worried about me. So remember her mom called and said, 'Hannah's worried about
90:04 called and said, 'Hannah's worried about Ellen, why wasn't she at school?' But
90:06 Ellen, why wasn't she at school?' But then the biggest thing that Hannah did
90:07 then the biggest thing that Hannah did was the other day,
90:09 was the other day, Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her
90:11 Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her her husband, came to my soccer game and
90:13 her husband, came to my soccer game and Hannah looked over and goes, 'Oh my god,
90:16 Hannah looked over and goes, 'Oh my god, your Oma and Opa are here.' And I said,
90:20 your Oma and Opa are here.' And I said, 'Why was that a big deal?' And she goes,
90:21 'Why was that a big deal?' And she goes, 'Because everybody's divorced and
90:22 'Because everybody's divorced and remarried and I've got eight
90:24 remarried and I've got eight Yeah, four sets of people and she
90:26 Yeah, four sets of people and she remembered their names.'
90:27 remembered their names.' And what was shocking to me is that
90:29 And what was shocking to me is that Ellen was conveying
90:32 Ellen was conveying that these marbles
90:34 that these marbles were being earned on these very small
90:37 were being earned on these very small She knew my grandparents' name. She gave
90:40 She knew my grandparents' name. She gave me a seat to sit at. She checked on me
90:42 me a seat to sit at. She checked on me when I was missing school.
90:44 when I was missing school. And so
90:46 And so it made me start thinking about the
90:47 it made me start thinking about the literature on trust. So I immediately go
90:49 literature on trust. So I immediately go to the Gottmans. Have you had the
90:51 to the Gottmans. Have you had the Gottmans on here?
90:51 Gottmans on here? >> Oh, twice, yeah. Yeah, I mean just like
90:53 >> Oh, twice, yeah. Yeah, I mean just like yeah. So I go to the Gottmans' research
90:56 yeah. So I go to the Gottmans' research on trust and I read right off the bat
90:59 on trust and I read right off the bat where Gottmans say, "Trust is earned in
91:02 where Gottmans say, "Trust is earned in small moments every day." He tells a
91:05 small moments every day." He tells a story. It's my favorite story that he
91:07 story. It's my favorite story that he tells and I've had them on my podcast
91:08 tells and I've had them on my podcast and I've
91:09 and I've done blurbs for their books and written
91:11 done blurbs for their books and written forwards. They're just great. So he
91:12 forwards. They're just great. So he tells a story about how he's also a
91:14 tells a story about how he's also a mystery lover like me. He's on the
91:16 mystery lover like me. He's on the second to last page of his mystery.
91:18 second to last page of his mystery. He's like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Who
91:20 He's like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Who did it?" And he jumps up to go brush his
91:22 did it?" And he jumps up to go brush his teeth and he gets gets walks to the
91:24 teeth and he gets gets walks to the bathroom and he sees his wife crying and
91:28 bathroom and he sees his wife crying and brushing her hair. He's like, "Shit.
91:30 brushing her hair. He's like, "Shit. Don't look. Everything's good. Just go
91:32 Don't look. Everything's good. Just go to the bathroom and get back in your get
91:34 to the bathroom and get back in your get get back to your book." And he's like,
91:36 get back to your book." And he's like, "That's a sliding door moment.
91:39 "That's a sliding door moment. I can I have a choice in that moment
91:42 I can I have a choice in that moment to build trust and stop and say, 'What's
91:44 to build trust and stop and say, 'What's going on?'
91:45 going on?' or to build betrayal and pretend like I
91:47 or to build betrayal and pretend like I don't see her hurting."
91:49 don't see her hurting." "So I stop. I take the brush out of her
91:51 "So I stop. I take the brush out of her hand.
91:52 hand. I start brushing her hair and say,
91:54 I start brushing her hair and say, 'What's going on?'"
91:57 'What's going on?'" That's a sliding door moment that we
91:58 That's a sliding door moment that we have all the time, right? And so to me,
92:02 have all the time, right? And so to me, trust is built slowly over time, a
92:05 trust is built slowly over time, a marble at a time.
92:07 marble at a time. And that's how That's how we teach trust
92:10 And that's how That's how we teach trust to the most senior leaders in Fortune
92:12 to the most senior leaders in Fortune 100 companies.
92:14 100 companies. The trust is the marble jar. It's
92:15 The trust is the marble jar. It's earned.
92:17 earned. Leaders believe
92:18 Leaders believe and you're a leader, so you know you
92:20 and you're a leader, so you know you know the temptation.
92:21 know the temptation. Leaders believe that in the middle of a
92:24 Leaders believe that in the middle of a crisis,
92:26 crisis, you know,
92:27 you know, you put the numbers together and there's
92:29 you put the numbers together and there's a fever dream in the United States and
92:30 a fever dream in the United States and there's new tariffs and you wake up and
92:32 there's new tariffs and you wake up and you know, you're you're you've got a
92:33 you know, you're you're you've got a revenue line that's in crisis and then
92:35 revenue line that's in crisis and then you can just look at your people and
92:37 you can just look at your people and say,
92:38 say, "Hello everyone." This is like back to
92:39 "Hello everyone." This is like back to the the uh executive presence. "Trust
92:42 the the uh executive presence. "Trust me. Here's what we're going to do." And
92:44 me. Here's what we're going to do." And it means nothing to people. What matters
92:47 it means nothing to people. What matters is a leader that walks past you in the
92:48 is a leader that walks past you in the morning and says, "Hey, good to see
92:50 morning and says, "Hey, good to see Steven. How's your mom's chemo going?"
92:56 Marbles. Marbles. Then when the crisis happens,
92:58 Marbles. Then when the crisis happens, you don't need to say, "Trust me."
93:00 you don't need to say, "Trust me." You just need to say what's on your
93:01 You just need to say what's on your mind. They trust you.
93:04 mind. They trust you. The other thing I think uh
93:06 The other thing I think uh is often plagued my mind is as a leader,
93:08 is often plagued my mind is as a leader, sometimes you say things and those
93:09 sometimes you say things and those things can't happen for whatever reason,
93:10 things can't happen for whatever reason, things change.
93:11 things change. >> Right. And um
93:16 And I think leaders sometimes think that trust is always being correct, always
93:18 trust is always being correct, always predicting everything correctly, always
93:20 predicting everything correctly, always being right.
93:22 being right. No.
93:23 No. Trust is
93:25 Trust is Man, I think we had nailed this.
93:28 Man, I think we had nailed this. I thought
93:30 I thought this was how this was going to happen.
93:32 this was how this was going to happen. We were wrong. You've been
93:34 We were wrong. You've been [clears throat] working your asses off
93:35 [clears throat] working your asses off for 6 months on this
93:37 for 6 months on this and I've got to deprioritize it today
93:38 and I've got to deprioritize it today standing right here in front of you.
93:40 standing right here in front of you. But I'm not going to [ __ ] you.
93:42 But I'm not going to [ __ ] you. You've been working your ass off on a
93:43 You've been working your ass off on a priority
93:44 priority that literally does not exist today.
93:47 that literally does not exist today. Hm.
93:48 Hm. I want to stop and say thank you.
93:50 I want to stop and say thank you. I saw what you were doing.
93:53 I saw what you were doing. I want to be completely transparent
93:54 I want to be completely transparent about why the priority has shifted.
93:56 about why the priority has shifted. And then I'm going to ask you for the
93:58 And then I'm going to ask you for the same level of work on the new priority.
94:03 Yes or no? Yeah, and then the blame and
94:05 Yeah, and then the blame and responsibility often rear their heads.
94:07 responsibility often rear their heads. That's right.
94:07 That's right. >> For for better or for worse.
94:08 >> For for better or for worse. >> Go like this. My eyelash or something. I
94:10 >> Go like this. My eyelash or something. I know. One marble. There you go. Oh.
94:13 know. One marble. There you go. Oh. Yeah, [laughter] is that a marble? Yeah,
94:14 Yeah, [laughter] is that a marble? Yeah, that is. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you didn't have
94:16 that is. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you didn't have to say that, you know.
94:17 to say that, you know. I think that sometimes people say you've
94:19 I think that sometimes people say you've got some [ __ ] on your shirt. I'm like,
94:20 got some [ __ ] on your shirt. I'm like, that's thank you so much because it
94:21 that's thank you so much because it would have been much
94:23 would have been much easier for you not to point out the
94:25 easier for you not to point out the boogie on my face or whatever, you know
94:26 boogie on my face or whatever, you know what I mean? I don't trust somebody that
94:27 what I mean? I don't trust somebody that doesn't do that. So I guess it is
94:29 doesn't do that. So I guess it is [clears throat] a marble.
94:31 [clears throat] a marble. Hm.
94:33 Hm. Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago
94:34 Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago on the podcast, they said, "I trust
94:35 on the podcast, they said, "I trust people who say things in public that is
94:37 people who say things in public that is against their near-term interests." And
94:38 against their near-term interests." And I thought, "Hm." Oh.
94:40 I thought, "Hm." Oh. Oh, I That's [laughter] good.
94:44 Oh, I That's [laughter] good. That's That's like a That's like a
94:47 That's That's like a That's like a That's a
94:53 Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good metaphor though, right? Mhm. Mhm. The trust in
94:55 though, right? Mhm. Mhm. The trust in the [clears throat] marble jar has been
94:56 the [clears throat] marble jar has been very helpful for us. Mhm. And let me
94:58 very helpful for us. Mhm. And let me tell you, there are behaviors
95:00 tell you, there are behaviors This is plastic.
95:02 This is plastic. There are behaviors in relationships
95:04 There are behaviors in relationships where you take this whole thing and just
95:06 where you take this whole thing and just slam it on the ground. Cheating.
95:08 slam it on the ground. Cheating. I think that's an obvious one.
95:20 There's one that's more has a more ragged edge of grief and distress than
95:22 ragged edge of grief and distress than even cheating,
95:24 even cheating, which is just slowly disengaging.
95:33 Emotionally disengaging. >> Yeah. Mhm.
95:40 Yeah, gosh. That's a ragged That's a ragged-edged break on that marble jar
95:42 ragged-edged break on that marble jar and it just happens over time and every
95:45 and it just happens over time and every Yeah, the the other people think that
95:46 Yeah, the the other people think that they're nuts and it makes them question
95:48 they're nuts and it makes them question their own judgment.
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96:55 now. I did something at 24 years old that has
96:58 I did something at 24 years old that has had a profound impact on my life. I set
97:00 had a profound impact on my life. I set myself the challenge of posting every
97:01 myself the challenge of posting every single day on my social media channels.
97:03 single day on my social media channels. And at the time, I was doing it to grow
97:05 And at the time, I was doing it to grow my following, but it had this profound
97:07 my following, but it had this profound impact on my life and two remarkable
97:09 impact on my life and two remarkable things happened when I did that. I
97:10 things happened when I did that. I managed to learn faster because every
97:12 managed to learn faster because every single day I'm capturing what is
97:13 single day I'm capturing what is happening to me and trying to distill it
97:15 happening to me and trying to distill it down into something that I can share
97:17 down into something that I can share with the world. But more remarkably, it
97:19 with the world. But more remarkably, it led me to building a following of many
97:21 led me to building a following of many millions of people and that's the basis
97:23 millions of people and that's the basis that I used to launch the Diary of a
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97:56 That's adobe.ly / Steven.
97:58 / Steven. You have been in a relationship much
97:59 You have been in a relationship much longer than me, but we share a lot of
98:01 longer than me, but we share a lot of similarities in many ways. I was
98:02 similarities in many ways. I was wondering if um
98:03 wondering if um if you were to give me
98:05 if you were to give me any relationship advice that might hold
98:07 any relationship advice that might hold my [ __ ] together Mhm. over the next 30
98:10 my [ __ ] together Mhm. over the next 30 years.
98:12 years. I mean, you could give me so much, I
98:13 I mean, you could give me so much, I know, cuz I've seen I've seen so much of
98:15 know, cuz I've seen I've seen so much of your incredible I've actually stolen so
98:16 your incredible I've actually stolen so much advice. One of the things I stole
98:18 much advice. One of the things I stole recently, which me and my girlfriend
98:19 recently, which me and my girlfriend talked about, was
98:20 talked about, was sometimes I'd come home and I'm on like
98:22 sometimes I'd come home and I'm on like 10% and I heard you say this.
98:23 10% and I heard you say this. >> Oh, yeah. And I just I don't communicate
98:25 >> Oh, yeah. And I just I don't communicate to my girlfriend that I'm on I've got
98:26 to my girlfriend that I'm on I've got like 10% left.
98:28 like 10% left. >> Yeah. And then she you know, she might
98:29 >> Yeah. And then she you know, she might want to try and work through some [ __ ]
98:30 want to try and work through some [ __ ] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
98:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
98:32 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to go bad. Yeah, it's going
98:33 It's going to go bad. Yeah, it's going to go bad. Yeah, let's not do this at
98:35 to go bad. Yeah, let's not do this at 1:00 a.m. No.
98:36 1:00 a.m. No. >> [clears throat]
98:37 >> [clears throat] >> And I saw you talk about how you
98:38 >> And I saw you talk about how you communicate, you vocalize what you have
98:40 communicate, you vocalize what you have left in the tank to give context to the
98:42 left in the tank to give context to the person. I guess it's to create some
98:43 person. I guess it's to create some empathy for both of you, but I've stolen
98:45 empathy for both of you, but I've stolen that. But is there anything else that um
98:47 that. But is there anything else that um you think might help me over the next 30
98:48 you think might help me over the next 30 years to have a good relationship with
98:51 years to have a good relationship with my girlfriend with all the risks that
98:53 my girlfriend with all the risks that you see? I'll just start by saying I
98:54 you see? I'll just start by saying I think therapy,
98:57 think therapy, couples work, is like so incredibly
99:00 couples work, is like so incredibly powerful and helpful. I think the
99:02 powerful and helpful. I think the Gottmans' work
99:04 Gottmans' work is really like we read the Gottmans'
99:06 is really like we read the Gottmans' work together sometimes. I think I think
99:08 work together sometimes. I think I think that's helpful. I'm surprised you were
99:11 that's helpful. I'm surprised you were willing
99:12 willing as someone that struggles with
99:13 as someone that struggles with vulnerability. Oh, yeah. No, for sure.
99:16 vulnerability. Oh, yeah. No, for sure. Well, you you weren't No, I was willing.
99:18 Well, you you weren't No, I was willing. Oh, really? Okay.
99:18 Oh, really? Okay. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I struggle with
99:21 >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I struggle with vulnerability, but I really respect
99:24 vulnerability, but I really respect humility in people so much that even if
99:26 humility in people so much that even if I'm not feeling humility, I will fake
99:29 I'm not feeling humility, I will fake humility and be like, I need help. And
99:32 humility and be like, I need help. And then I'll say, [ __ ] this is real. This
99:34 then I'll say, [ __ ] this is real. This is hard. This is They say, got my
99:35 is hard. This is They say, got my number? Like, how
99:36 number? Like, how >> [laughter]
99:37 >> [laughter] >> I damn. Hey, they just call the thing a
99:39 >> I damn. Hey, they just call the thing a thing. They hurt my feelers. Um but I I
99:43 thing. They hurt my feelers. Um but I I guess the biggest thing is that not
99:45 guess the biggest thing is that not neither Stephen I nor I had
99:48 neither Stephen I nor I had any modeling of what a healthy
99:50 any modeling of what a healthy relationship looked like
99:52 relationship looked like at all.
99:57 And I think one commitment we made is to
100:00 I think one commitment we made is to just
100:01 just keep showing up. I think these are the
100:03 keep showing up. I think these are the three commitments. Keep showing up.
100:06 three commitments. Keep showing up. Don't buy into the [ __ ] that it's
100:08 Don't buy into the [ __ ] that it's supposed to be easy. It'll be the
100:09 supposed to be easy. It'll be the hardest thing you'll ever do. And ask
100:11 hardest thing you'll ever do. And ask for help.
100:13 for help. And that's not There's no
100:15 And that's not There's no I wish I could give you like a Here's
100:17 I wish I could give you like a Here's the secret to it. But the secret to us
100:19 the secret to it. But the secret to us is we keep showing up.
100:22 is we keep showing up. We know it's not supposed to be easy.
100:25 We know it's not supposed to be easy. And we get help.
100:26 And we get help. And the help being
100:28 And the help being you turn to him and ask for help or
100:30 you turn to him and ask for help or external
100:30 external >> Well, we Well, we get external help, but
100:32 >> Well, we Well, we get external help, but we read. We try new things.
100:35 we read. We try new things. Um
100:38 Um we try new tools.
100:39 we try new tools. We just
100:40 We just we don't ever want to be done learning
100:42 we don't ever want to be done learning and trying to be better for ourselves
100:44 and trying to be better for ourselves and for each other.
100:49 And that's a lot. I mean, 38 years together
100:51 together is
100:58 not just like the slow roll movie of a life and a family,
101:01 of a life and a family, but we've
101:02 but we've buried parents.
101:04 buried parents. You know, we've gone through illnesses.
101:08 You know, we've gone through illnesses. We've
101:10 We've raised, you know, kids. We've
101:14 raised, you know, kids. We've We've gone through different seasons in
101:16 We've gone through different seasons in our own lives where we were not synced
101:18 our own lives where we were not synced at all.
101:19 at all. It's really, really hard.
101:21 It's really, really hard. But it's I'm more proud of it than
101:24 But it's I'm more proud of it than anything I've ever done.
101:26 anything I've ever done. Cuz my setup for success was zero.
101:29 Cuz my setup for success was zero. You've buried parents.
101:31 You've buried parents. Yeah. Christmas day?
101:33 Yeah. Christmas day? My mom died on Christmas day after my
101:34 My mom died on Christmas day after my sisters and I were there at her primary
101:36 sisters and I were there at her primary caregiver for 4 years with dementia. 4
101:38 caregiver for 4 years with dementia. 4 years.
101:47 I wouldn't wish that [ __ ] on the people I hate the most.
101:49 I hate the most. I know I try not to hate people, but I
101:52 I know I try not to hate people, but I God gives me grace for it on occasion.
101:54 God gives me grace for it on occasion. But um
101:56 But um I would not wish that on anybody.
102:01 You know, there's the reality of it, you know, she gets there, there's an
102:02 know, she gets there, there's an accident. You're showering your mom.
102:03 accident. You're showering your mom. You're bathing your mom. Mhm. You know,
102:05 You're bathing your mom. Mhm. You know, and
102:08 and she knows just enough
102:10 she knows just enough to be humiliated by it.
102:13 to be humiliated by it. Mhm.
102:14 Mhm. But this is life. Like this is This is
102:17 But this is life. Like this is This is caregiving.
102:18 caregiving. You know?
102:19 You know? And it's a
102:21 And it's a tremendous emotional, physical, mental
102:26 tremendous emotional, physical, mental weight that falls primarily on women who
102:29 weight that falls primarily on women who are also in the workforce.
102:32 are also in the workforce. You know, thank God I had two sisters,
102:33 You know, thank God I had two sisters, so there's three of us.
102:35 so there's three of us. Um but
102:37 Um but and many people have very Many people
102:39 and many people have very Many people have zero. It's like you and your PhD
102:42 have zero. It's like you and your PhD research PhD researcher. I have
102:45 research PhD researcher. I have resources.
102:47 resources. A lot of resources.
102:49 A lot of resources. And I think it almost killed me. You
102:51 And I think it almost killed me. You know, and so
102:53 know, and so It almost killed you. I mean, yeah, it
102:55 It almost killed you. I mean, yeah, it it
103:00 to lose someone that you love like I love my mom in bits and pieces
103:04 love my mom in bits and pieces in chips and bones in, you know, like
103:07 in chips and bones in, you know, like that is
103:09 that is you know, and then
103:11 you know, and then there was a day when she just got
103:12 there was a day when she just got incredibly, incredibly cruel. Like my
103:16 incredibly, incredibly cruel. Like my mom was the fulcrum.
103:20 mom was the fulcrum. Our family changed on her back. Like she
103:23 Our family changed on her back. Like she was the first person to go to therapy.
103:25 was the first person to go to therapy. She left my dad.
103:27 She left my dad. She got us into therapy. She worked
103:29 She got us into therapy. She worked three jobs. She She changed everything.
103:33 three jobs. She She changed everything. She talked about the long history of
103:34 She talked about the long history of addiction in our family, you know, on
103:37 addiction in our family, you know, on both sides, everywhere. She changed our
103:39 both sides, everywhere. She changed our family. And so to say she was like, you
103:42 family. And so to say she was like, you know, somebody who I respected and
103:45 know, somebody who I respected and revered like was is an understatement.
103:48 revered like was is an understatement. And you know,
103:51 And you know, and we did so much healing work
103:53 and we did so much healing work around
103:55 around kind of how she showed up as a parent in
103:58 kind of how she showed up as a parent in her marriage with my dad. And so then
104:01 her marriage with my dad. And so then the one day I went to go take care of
104:02 the one day I went to go take care of her and I saw that thing that hadn't
104:04 her and I saw that thing that hadn't seen since I was 14, you know, and I'm
104:06 seen since I was 14, you know, and I'm 54.
104:08 54. You know, and it literally like I
104:10 You know, and it literally like I couldn't drive. Like it brought me
104:12 couldn't drive. Like it brought me physically to my knees.
104:14 physically to my knees. Like Like my husband had to come and get
104:16 Like Like my husband had to come and get me.
104:18 me. And I don't like
104:22 And I don't like I can't I can't talk about it without
104:23 I can't I can't talk about it without getting emotional cuz it's not like I
104:24 getting emotional cuz it's not like I blamed my mom cuz she's in the middle of
104:26 blamed my mom cuz she's in the middle of this disease, you know? But it was like
104:29 this disease, you know? But it was like I
104:30 I I didn't see her for 2 months after
104:32 I didn't see her for 2 months after that.
104:34 that. And Steve kept saying, I I said, I
104:35 And Steve kept saying, I I said, I can't. And he's like, you got to you got
104:37 can't. And he's like, you got to you got to heal from that. I mean, just imagine
104:40 to heal from that. I mean, just imagine being dropped back in
104:42 being dropped back in a worst-case scenario situation when you
104:43 a worst-case scenario situation when you were 13 or 14.
104:45 were 13 or 14. And then, you know, you're just like,
104:47 And then, you know, you're just like, I can't I can't.
104:49 I can't I can't. And, you know, my sisters were like,
104:51 And, you know, my sisters were like, I got We got We got this.
104:53 I got We got We got this. And then they'd go through a period
104:54 And then they'd go through a period where they were like, I can't right now.
104:57 where they were like, I can't right now. And then I Okay, I got it. But Steve
104:59 And then I Okay, I got it. But Steve always had it.
105:06 Steve was like, I got the diaper. I'll take him to dinner.
105:08 I'll take him to dinner. I'll meet with the doctors. Like, that's
105:10 I'll meet with the doctors. Like, that's partnership.
105:12 partnership. You know what I mean? That's
105:12 You know what I mean? That's partnership.
105:14 partnership. How did you How did you deal with the
105:15 How did you How did you deal with the grief?
105:17 grief? Well,
105:19 Well, don't send me your hate mail, [ __ ]
105:21 don't send me your hate mail, [ __ ] but you know, when she died, it was
105:23 but you know, when she died, it was nothing but relief.
105:25 nothing but relief. I've heard this I've never not heard
105:26 I've heard this I've never not heard that from someone that had a parent with
105:29 that from someone that had a parent with struggling with dementia. Absolutely.
105:30 struggling with dementia. Absolutely. >> It was complete relief. I mean, the day
105:32 >> It was complete relief. I mean, the day before she died, I think we had a really
105:33 before she died, I think we had a really important time with her.
105:35 important time with her. And
105:37 And I'm sure she is, you know,
105:39 I'm sure she is, you know, playing dominoes with Ann Richards and
105:41 playing dominoes with Ann Richards and Molly Ivins and great other female Texas
105:43 Molly Ivins and great other female Texas politicians. Um
105:46 politicians. Um Democrats. But um cuz my mom was very
105:48 Democrats. But um cuz my mom was very radically political, but
105:50 radically political, but uh
106:02 the window of grief was just years of There There was, you know,
106:03 There There was, you know, very early on there was no calling her
106:05 very early on there was no calling her to say, oh, Charlie got a really cute
106:07 to say, oh, Charlie got a really cute date. Let me show you the homecoming
106:08 date. Let me show you the homecoming pictures. Or hey, Ellen, you know, got
106:10 pictures. Or hey, Ellen, you know, got into her master's program. That that all
106:12 into her master's program. That that all just went away. Just every
106:15 just went away. Just every week.
106:18 week. And so
106:20 And so that's why, you know, the whole the
106:23 that's why, you know, the whole the whole Strong Ground book, there's a
106:25 whole Strong Ground book, there's a there's a sentence in the in the first
106:26 there's a sentence in the in the first chapter that said, I have a sticky note
106:29 chapter that said, I have a sticky note on my window on my mirror in the
106:31 on my window on my mirror in the bathroom that says, I'd rather be the
106:33 bathroom that says, I'd rather be the oldest woman in the gym than the
106:35 oldest woman in the gym than the youngest woman in assisted living. Mhm.
106:37 youngest woman in assisted living. Mhm. Because
106:39 Because I do believe in the connection around
106:41 I do believe in the connection around exercise, you know, dementia. And I I
106:44 exercise, you know, dementia. And I I took care of my grandmother with
106:46 took care of my grandmother with dementia with my mom.
106:52 And my mom and my grandmother made a lot of different lifestyle choices than I've
106:54 of different lifestyle choices than I've made, but
106:56 made, but the whole Strong Ground metaphor is that
106:59 the whole Strong Ground metaphor is that I went to go see a trainer.
107:02 I went to go see a trainer. And one day he looked at me and he said,
107:05 And one day he looked at me and he said, he called me Brown. He said, find the
107:08 he called me Brown. He said, find the ground, Brown.
107:09 ground, Brown. And I looked down and I said, okay. And
107:10 And I looked down and I said, okay. And he goes, not the floor, the ground. Take
107:12 he goes, not the floor, the ground. Take your feet,
107:14 your feet, push in to the ground. Use your mind to
107:16 push in to the ground. Use your mind to connect with your body. Push into the
107:19 connect with your body. Push into the ground and then tell your mind you're
107:21 ground and then tell your mind you're going to be using [ __ ] lats.
107:23 going to be using [ __ ] lats. And I was like, okay. So I did it
107:27 And I was like, okay. So I did it and I felt them.
107:29 and I felt them. And I started whispering every time I
107:31 And I started whispering every time I would do a weightlifting thing, strong
107:33 would do a weightlifting thing, strong ground, strong ground.
107:36 ground, strong ground. Strong ground. An unbelievable
107:38 Strong ground. An unbelievable unbelievable book. So if we we didn't
107:40 unbelievable book. So if we we didn't cover everything in this book today,
107:42 cover everything in this book today, which is a great shame, but hopefully
107:44 which is a great shame, but hopefully we'll speak again in the future. But
107:45 we'll speak again in the future. But it's the lessons of daring leadership,
107:46 it's the lessons of daring leadership, the tenacity of of paradox, which is
107:48 the tenacity of of paradox, which is something I was keen to talk about, and
107:49 something I was keen to talk about, and the wisdom of the human spirit. All of
107:52 the wisdom of the human spirit. All of your books are amazing. You said it
107:53 your books are amazing. You said it earlier on that someone called you a
107:54 earlier on that someone called you a wizard when you were younger. That's
107:55 wizard when you were younger. That's exactly what I think you are.
107:57 exactly what I think you are. I think you're a wizard.
107:59 I think you're a wizard. Why? I think you're a wizard. You have a
108:00 Why? I think you're a wizard. You have a unbelievable pattern recognition,
108:02 unbelievable pattern recognition, understanding of humans. You have so
108:04 understanding of humans. You have so many wide reference points that it
108:05 many wide reference points that it appears to be magic to a muggle like me.
108:08 appears to be magic to a muggle like me. We're out I had a time in the team and
108:10 We're out I had a time in the team and we're going to run through the door if
108:10 we're going to run through the door if I'm not careful.
108:12 I'm not careful. But we have a closing tradition on this
108:13 But we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a
108:14 podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing
108:15 question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. You actually
108:16 who they're leaving it for. You actually know this person. Is you? I know the
108:18 know this person. Is you? I know the next guest? No, you know the one that
108:19 next guest? No, you know the one that left the question for you. Oh, got it.
108:20 left the question for you. Oh, got it. But they didn't know it was for you.
108:22 But they didn't know it was for you. Dear beautiful and highly intelligent
108:25 Dear beautiful and highly intelligent next guest,
108:26 next guest, what are you optimizing for right now?
108:38 Strength and longevity. Mentally, physically, spiritually, and
108:40 Mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally.
108:45 Strong ground. The lesson The lessons of daring
108:46 The lesson The lessons of daring leadership, the tenacity of paradox, and
108:48 leadership, the tenacity of paradox, and the wisdom of the human spirit. You are
108:52 the wisdom of the human spirit. You are You are
108:53 You are I was trying to think if there was any
108:54 I was trying to think if there was any others. You are the single most
108:56 others. You are the single most requested guest um and you have been on
108:58 requested guest um and you have been on the show for for a long, long time, for
109:00 the show for for a long, long time, for three or four years. When we ask people
109:01 three or four years. When we ask people who they want me to speak to, they say
109:02 who they want me to speak to, they say your name. And they say your name
109:03 your name. And they say your name because of these the incredible work
109:05 because of these the incredible work you've done through your own podcast,
109:06 you've done through your own podcast, which I'm going to link on the screen
109:07 which I'm going to link on the screen and below right now, but also through
109:09 and below right now, but also through some of these incredible books which
109:10 some of these incredible books which have changed people's lives. If you're
109:12 have changed people's lives. If you're unfamiliar with Brené's work, um
109:15 unfamiliar with Brené's work, um I think people will understand after
109:17 I think people will understand after listening today how much they're missing
109:19 listening today how much they're missing out on. I'd highly recommend you go and
109:21 out on. I'd highly recommend you go and listen to Brené's podcasts, um but also
109:23 listen to Brené's podcasts, um but also to
109:24 to check out this book Strong Ground, which
109:26 check out this book Strong Ground, which I'm going to I'm going to link below. Um
109:28 I'm going to I'm going to link below. Um also Dare to Lead. I think all of um
109:30 also Dare to Lead. I think all of um all of the leadership team in my office
109:31 all of the leadership team in my office reference Dare to Lead so often, which
109:34 reference Dare to Lead so often, which is an incredible book about Brave Work,
109:35 is an incredible book about Brave Work, Tough Decisions, and Whole Hearts. You
109:37 Tough Decisions, and Whole Hearts. You make the most beautiful artwork. I
109:39 make the most beautiful artwork. I consider these books to be artwork again
109:41 consider these books to be artwork again because they pull on so many different
109:42 because they pull on so many different reference points to make something that
109:44 reference points to make something that feels so original. And you've helped so
109:46 feels so original. And you've helped so many people. The fact that my audience
109:47 many people. The fact that my audience have demanded I speak to you for so long
109:49 have demanded I speak to you for so long I think is testament to that. And um
109:51 I think is testament to that. And um you're a wonderful human being. And
109:52 you're a wonderful human being. And actually one of the things you've
109:53 actually one of the things you've inspired me to be
109:55 inspired me to be is myself.
109:56 is myself. Because that's exactly what I find you
109:58 Because that's exactly what I find you to be. So, thank you so much, Brené, for
109:59 to be. So, thank you so much, Brené, for your time today. It's deeply, deeply
110:01 your time today. It's deeply, deeply appreciated, more so than I could say.
110:02 appreciated, more so than I could say. And I think you're a wonderful human
110:03 And I think you're a wonderful human being. Please come back again soon. I
110:05 being. Please come back again soon. I will. I have enjoyed every minute of
110:07 will. I have enjoyed every minute of this. I would say it has not been easy
110:10 this. I would say it has not been easy cuz we went to some hard places
110:12 cuz we went to some hard places together,
110:13 together, but [clears throat] it's been
110:14 but [clears throat] it's been meaningful.
110:15 meaningful. Thank you. Thank you.
110:17 Thank you. Thank you. >> [music]