Brené Brown: The Algorithms Have Forced Us In...

You are the single most requested guest.

And let me tell you, this has not been

easy cuz we went to some hard places,

but I don't think we'll ever talk about

anything more important than this cuz

it's not fear that gets in the way of us

being brave with our lives and our work.

[music] It's the armor that we reach for

to self-protect when we're afraid and

how [music] that armor moves us away

from love, connection, and our values.

And [music] the hardest work is being

aware of what is my armor when I'm

afraid. Is that automatic? Oh, no, it's

a training. So, let's start with that,

then. Brené Brown is an icon whose

world-leading research in shame,

vulnerability, and connection

>> has inspired [music] companies like

Pixar, Google, and the US Special Forces

>> to build stronger leaders and help the

everyday person unlock their full potential.

potential.

Ready? Is vulnerability important?

>> It is if we want to be brave with our

lives, but we were raised to believe

that vulnerability is weakness.

>> [music]

>> Like in my family, we were allowed

anger, but sad was not an option. You

needed to be tough. So, when I get

scared, when I [music] feel anxious,

disappointed, I'm just angry. And so,

when you're raised without

vulnerability, it'll put you in

jeopardy. Like you want to know what

vulnerability is? Joy. Joy is so

vulnerable [music] that people choose to

live disappointed rather than to get

excited about something and risk getting

sucker punched by disappointment. Like

there is no courage without

vulnerability because courage is the

willingness to show up and be all in

when you cannot predict the outcome.

Wow, I've never thought about that

before. But you can develop skills. Like

it's skills, that's courage?

>> Yes. We've taken 165,000

people through this work. That included

how to build trust.

>> And I've heard about your marble jar

theory. Could you explain to me what

your marble jar You look at how excited

you are. I know.

So, this is how we teach trust to the

most senior leaders in Fortune [music]

100 companies. It's awesome.

I see messages all the time in the

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It is the simple, it's the free thing

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double-check if you subscribed and uh

thank you so much because in a strange

way you are you're part of our history

and you're on this journey with us and I

appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you.

you. >> [music]

>> [music] [singing]

[singing] >> Brené.

In order to um understand all the work

that you have done and the perspective

that you have on the world and also who

you are as a anomaly in many respects, I

think it's probably important that I

understand your earliest context.

Where you've come from, what shaped you.

I'm stuck on a

Am I a Am I an anomaly? I think of

course you're an anomaly.

Of course you're an anomaly. It that

that should be of no surprise to you.

I mean, if you look at your outcomes,

your outcomes are anomalous.

So, one would assume that there's some form

form >> [snorts]

>> [snorts]

>> something that made you an anomaly.

I would say that

I'm a fifth-generation Texan. Mhm. I

I

came from a fair amount of dysfunction.

dysfunction.

Parents doing the best they could

with what they knew.

Both coming from really, really, really

tough upbringings that included, you know,

know, poverty,

poverty,

addiction. And so, probably a lot of the

stereotypes you would think about

fifth-generation Texan, tough, don't

cry, we were allowed a very small

continuum of emotions were approval, you

know, were approved, which were pissed off

off

or okay. Like anger was okay, but no,

you know, couldn't be sad, really. Or

vulnerability was not a thing.

Vulnerability was weakness and scary and

put you in jeopardy.

I felt like a real outsider at home and

in school.

But I was really good at reading people,

reading situations. I think my I I think

a therapist somewhere along the way said

Yes, that's hypervigilance. Mhm. You're hypervigilant.

hypervigilant.

You know, I can see everything around me

and everything that's going on. I can

connect things very quickly that other

people don't see.

And there was laughter

but there was a

ton of unpredictability.

I was going to say, isn't that typically

what creates hypervigilance is some kind of

of

need to be that aware when you're young? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think yes.

Being fun-loving

was very valued in my family and being

tough. These were the values. These are

These are on the parental scorecard.

Mhm. This is what got you an A. If

you're fun, easy,

easy,

you can, you know, shoot straight, spit

far, fish well,

like really, drive fast. And so, those

things were very valued.

Athleticism was very valued. Um

But those fun things could turn really

hard very quickly.

There was a big pause there. 4-second

pause as you

>> Yeah, I could just picture it. Like it's

fun until

it's fun until you've got a parent

ejected from a game

for being so hard.

And that was your father?

>> Yeah. How he is really hard, then, if he

was ejected from a game. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a photo I saw of you and your

siblings where you're clutching your siblings.

siblings.

And I think you referred to it as you

could see there was a certain fear in

your eyes. Do you Do you know the photo

I'm referring to? Am I on a couch?

You're on a couch, is that

>> Like a yellow velour couch like from the '70s?

'70s?

>> Yes. Yeah.

I think about that picture. I like that

picture, but there is definitely I

definitely had a protector role as the

oldest. I mean, code name Sister

Superior. It was jokingly, but it wasn't

joking. Like if things got hard between

my parents and they would get involved

till fights, I would go get all my

siblings, put them in my room.

I'd go downstairs and handle it, you

know, like I was definitely the

protector. Physically volatile fights?

Um on occasion, but more emotionally

volatile. Screaming and shouting?

>> yeah. Same with my parents. Yeah, just

loud. As a background in my whole house

for my whole childhood was just screaming.

screaming.

There was a Yeah, we had a lot of

screaming and there's a certain Like if

you grew up with screaming, hearing

screaming through a wall, Mhm.

Mhm.

you [clears throat] know that sound.

>> Mhm. Do you know that sound?

>> Mhm, of course, yeah. Oh my god, it's my

whole childhood. Yeah.

>> Seven nights a week of screaming. Yeah.

And so, yeah, I'm sorry because I don't

like to hear that about your childhood

and I don't like to know that about my

childhood, but there was a lot of

screaming. And so, I think hypervigilant,

protective, responsible,

responsible,

with a dose of

be very [ __ ] careful because

because

And and how did that change your model

of love as a young person? It must have

been cuz I mean, I obviously feel the

same way about about my situation and um

I think the lesson I learned was that

love was like a prison cuz it was my mom

doing the shouting and my dad was the

prisoner and he wouldn't respond.

So, this you got a woman shouting at him

for 6, 7 hours a day and him sat there

like he's a like

inanimate object looking at the screen.

And I remember thinking, "Oh, okay. So,

if I get in a relationship when I'm

older, then I'm going to be a prisoner

to a woman. Okay."

Doesn't sound Doesn't sound appealing.

And if he moved to a different room,

she'd follow him. So,

I avoided relationships like the [ __ ] plague.

plague.

I did well until about 27. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat]

>> And then what?

And then someone got over the wall and

corrected to some of the evidence.

They got over the wall?

>> over the wall somehow.

Yeah, Steve got over the wall. Damn it.

Well, that's your part of not me, just

for context.

>> No, not Yeah, NOT YOU. >> [laughter]

>> [laughter]

>> ALTHOUGH YOU'RE DOING A HELL OF A JOB

RIGHT NOW. Um you're like you've crossed

the piranha-filled moat that I like. Um

but the drawbridge is like I'm see I'm

just see I'm going to see. My Steve My

Steve definitely

definitely got over the wall.

Um but it was like game game recognizes

game. He had a wall. Oh, okay.

>> Yeah. And so, we had long conversations

about our walls and and slowly through

those conversations, we just

those walls crumbled with each other and

we've been together now for 38 years.

>> Wow. Yeah.

Um hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

life.

Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder.

When I started dating Steve,

well, when we got married, 6 months

after we got married. This is, you know,

you you said for you love was going to

be being a prisoner. Mhm.

And having to just shut down

to survive.

>> Mhm. Right?

>> Run away. Don't confront it. No

conversations, no fights.

>> No. No.

Um for me, 6 months after we were

married, I went to go see a therapist

and I said, "I cannot do this. I've got

to get out of this marriage." And we had

dated off and on for 7 years before we

got married. And I said, "I got to get out."

out."

And she said, "I could The This is hard.

I I could see how this is not working."

And I was like

I had a twinge of defensiveness about

Steve and I said, "What do you mean?"

And she said,

"He likes you so much more

than you like you. It must be terrible."

I was like, "Fuck you, MAN. YOU'RE FIRED."

FIRED." >> [laughter]

>> I WAS I WAS SO

I I thought, "What?"

That's what I do. So, if you I'm going

to give you one of my tells.

If I do a really high-pitched "What?"

That means

I'm That means I'm looking for my purse

and I'm get I know where the door is. Um

I I I I just kept thinking, "What do

What do you mean?" He said, "It's got

It's got to be very comf- uncomfortable

to be with someone who sees you and

really knows you and loves you so much

when you have not found a way to see you

and love you so much.

It's got to be disconcerting."

What an [ __ ] man. Like, wow. And it

was true. I had to get to this point

where I was like, I Maybe I should like

me as much as he likes me and then make

a better decision about whether this is

going to work or not.

When you grow up

and pissed off or shut down are your two

emotional opportunities. Like, that you

know, in Atlas of the Heart, I write

about 87 emotions that I think are

important to understand because the

limits of our language are the limits of

our world.

When you have two buckets,

then everything must go in those. And in

fact, in our research over the last 15

years, we found the average person

can accurately identify and name three

emotions: happy, sad, pissed off. Mhm. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat]

>> And so, in my family, sad was not

an option. That was weakness.

So, you could be pissed or okay.

So, when I get scared,

when I feel grief,

when I'm anxious, when I feel

disappointment, when I feel anguish,

I'm just angry.

There's two sort of outstanding question

marks in my head, and they might be the

same answer, but it's You said earlier

on that you didn't fit in at school or

at home, and I didn't understand why you

didn't fit in at school or at at home.

And then the other thing that's sort of

a question mark in my head is the

therapist said to you that you well,

asserted that you didn't like yourself

as much as he liked you, and I wasn't

clear on what made you not like yourself.

yourself.

I wanted out of where I was raised. I

wanted to leave everything I knew.

And so, I always felt like an outsider.

I didn't

I didn't want to do I mean, I wasn't popular.

popular.

I wasn't dating a quarterback. That was

a dream that my my parents and their

parents and their parents, you know, you

were you were a Bear Cadet and you dated

a quarterback.

And you got a farm. So, at

I felt not cute, not popular,

not understood.

I was ang- I was anxious

and and always ready.

And the point about self-esteem, which

the therapist would have highlighted

about not liking oneself as much as

Steve liked you, where did that come

from? Or is that related in some way?

Oh, cuz my parents parented with a very

big a heaping dose of shame.

Oh, okay. So, if you accomplish

something or you don't accomplish

something, you're made to feel bad about it.

it. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

And a ton of it was about appearance,

being fun, appearance? Yeah.

Yeah, like, you know,

big blonde hair with hot rollers, the

higher the hair, the closer to God. You

needed to be tough and strong and throw

on a baseball cap and get somewhere

really quick, low maintenance,

and you needed to be a beauty pageant queen.

queen.

Do you remember them ever

being critical of your appearance in a

way that has stayed with you?

I mean, I think not just them. I mean,

like, I think

having young girls and young women

keeping them

from developing threats to their self-esteem

self-esteem

is not just a parental thing. It's like

it's It's like asking them not to

breathe because the air is poison. Like,

it's like every message from everywhere,

you know, the fashion magazines, you'd

read them and you'd think, "Wow,

"Wow,

I don't I don't look like this. How am I

going to look like this?" You know, and

you'd lather yourself up with baby oil

and you put lemon juice in your hair,

you put tin foil under your chin, get as

much skin cancer as you could cuz we

didn't know, you know, like, you you'd

We all wore jeans that you had to put on

with pliers with for the zipper cuz they

were so tight. Appearance mattered. This

is Texas, baby.

You go off to university eventually, and

not a straight line, but eventually you

get into university. Not a straight

line. Mhm. That's the sweetest thing

you've said to me. Um

Um

I graduated from college when I was 29.

Well, so you become a research professor

in 2001. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat]

>> And you've been a research professor and

many more things um ever since then. You

get your PhD in social work at the

University of Houston, Texas

between '96 and 2002. And really for the

last couple of decades, you've focused

on research, understanding people.

Obviously, there's so many more strings

to your bow in terms of like media and

podcasting and authorship. But over

those since 2001, we're in 2025 now,

just over two decades.

My first question is um

how has your perspective on How has the

world changed in those last two decades

in your view?

Unions would say before any

great progression,

there is a regression.

And I think that

that

when you look at various admin- I know

you have a very global audience. When

you look at administrations,

political administrations across the

world, and you look at

how power is being used right now,

it will tell you a lot about what

they're afraid of. Mhm.

What What is that face? We're going to

have to pause it.

>> I was thinking about a conversation I

had recently with my my best friends. It

must have been this weekend. Yeah, it

was this weekend cuz it was my friend's

birthday in Manchester, the UK, so we

flew in.

Um and we had a conversation about how

the leading political narrative at the

moment, this might be adjacent to what

you were saying, but it's the way I

interpreted it. The leading political

narrative at the moment that seems to be

getting people elected is if you say

those people with that skin color are

the reason for the pain and anguish in

your life, it's actually the people

below you that are coming over the

border or crossing the the English

Channel on dinghies that are ruining

your life, and it seems to be like a

really effective narrative to 100%.

empower both in the US and the UK. Like,

the central narrative that is swaying

elections it seems at the moment in the

UK and the US is

those brown people on that boat or

coming over the border are the reason

for the pain in your life,

and it seems to work, and that seems to

be the thing getting power. So, that's

kind of what ran through my head when I

heard this idea of like power and what

you're scared of. I actually think I

inverted it to if I can tell you what to

be scared of or find the thing you might

be scared of or whatever, then I get

power. But maybe it goes the other way, too.

too.

I don't think we'll ever talk about

anything more important than this, to be

honest with you. That's why I thought

your response was so interesting cuz you

you you may if I was going to like do

the text box above your face, Mhm.

it would have said, "Well, holy [ __ ]

That's interesting." Because

we when you use power, especially power

over, cuz there's multiple kinds of

power. There's power with and to

and power within.

So, people that use power with and to

and power within work from a belief

system that's completely different.

We believe that power is infinite and

can grow when shared.

People who use power over

work from a belief system that power is

finite, like pizza, and if I give you

any, I have a deficit.

So, it's got to be hoarded and protected

and not shared.

Power over

is really important to understand

because when people are using power

over, they're definitely letting you

know what they're afraid of because

that's what they're focused on.

And they're tapping into, and I think

this is absolutely true,

if you give people

someone to dislike

and blame for their pain,

and they look different than the people

who are voting, you [clears throat] will

win 100 times out of 100.

If you say, "I see your pain. I can tell

you exactly the source of it, and I can

fix this for you.

And [clears throat] the source of it is

going to be easy to see. You're not

going to see yourself in them." Mhm.

Mhm.

So, that narrative that you were talking

about, it is a full circle. People in power

power

use power to address issues that they're

afraid of.

They gain power by leveraging fear and

giving people an enemy.

That's how this works.

It works like this I mean, I spend 95%

of my time in organizations

working with C-suite leaders and senior

leaders. This This is how it works in

organizations, how it works in

political, you know, how it works in

faith communities. This is how power

works in general. So, power over is a

very specific kind of power,

and it's especially dangerous because in

order to maintain it,

you have to engage in periodic bouts of

cruelty towards vulnerable populations.

You have to remind people what you're

capable of.

So, there's four types of power you you

you speak about in um Damn, you

[clears throat] have that in your notes?

Why are you surprised? I don't know.

It's It's four types of power and

leadership you speak about. There's the

power over, which is controlling or

exploiting and there's power with

finding common ground and building

collective strength, power to which is

giving others agency and recognizing

their potential, and power within which

is honoring differences and self-worth.

So, as a leader of a business, if I were

to be successful,

are you telling me that I need to stay

away from power over and adopt another

power within this list of four?

Yeah, I think

what we've seen be very successful over

time is power with, power to, and power within.

within. So,

So,

collaborative power, co-creation power, self-awareness,

self-awareness,

metacognition, knowing yourself, knowing

how you think and learn. So, power with

and power to. Power over is

excruciatingly difficult to maintain.

We're not neurobiologically hardwired

hardwired

to stay in fear for very long. So,

So,

if I work for you if I work for you,

and you're using power over to lead me,

you're threatening me with my job,

you're threatening me with consequences,

you're threatening me with demotion,

one of two things is going to happen for

me neurobiologically. I am either going to

to

just become numb to it. It's not It's

not going to be able to You're not going

to maintain I can't maintain that

constant level of fear. It's just too demanding.

demanding. >> [snorts]

>> [snorts]

>> Just physically demanding.

Or I might get hyper

normalized. I might just like this is

This is what I work in. This is like

crazy. This is it, you know? But every

now and then you're going to have to do

something that demonstrates to me how

chaotic and cruel you can actually be.

Like you're going to have to engage in

periodic acts of cruelty to remind me

that the fear is real and to put me back

in it.

And so, one of the things you're seeing

right now, I mean like we in in the US,

the deportation and immigration issues.

This is not a president that has, you

know, tightened his belt on immigration

more than other previous presidents. But

we've never seen masked people

grabbing people off the street while

children hold on to their legs

screaming, "Mom, mom, mom." We've We've

never seen that before, right? But we've

had other presidents

the deportation numbers that we're seeing.

seeing.

But we've never seen that level of

cruelty in display.

That is a real display of cruelty as a

reminder of who who holds power and who

does not.

It also makes me think of relationships

when you're talking about

you know, how people are controlled with

power over. A lot of people talk about

like sort of narcissistic relationships

or abusive relationships where

they don't feel like they can leave or

you know, they don't leave and they end

up becoming acclimatized to the treatment.

treatment.

I'm a big systems theory I'm a systems

theory person. I think in systems theory

I was trained in systems theory. I think

if you don't understand systems systems

theory, at least if you're leading an

organization right now, you're going to

the complexity inside and outside of

organizations is such that we need a

framework to understand how all these

individual systems are bumping up

against each other. Like you you

probably bump up against

a hundred systems a day, right?

>> Yeah. And so, what I would imagine, the

story I would make up about your success,

success,

cuz this is true of any systems theory,

is in order for systems to thrive and grow,

grow,

they have to keep permeable boundaries.

Meaning they have to allow feedback to

flow in and out from other systems. Mhm. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat]

>> To be aware. So, I'm just going to give

you a very good example. I'm very

excited about the female

the experts you had on Mhm.

around menopause,

women's life. I mean, I'm so excited

about that. Mhm. Like just to be honest

with you, like Mary Claire is my doctor.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Haver. So,

So, um

what is interesting is the systems that

You know, and the systems that would be

sending feedback that hey, this is not

for me. I'm not clicking on this.

I I've shared that first one with a

hundred people. >> [laughter]

>> [laughter]

>> You know, because there's a reality to

our lives that is uncomfortable for people.

people.

But those are your partners and your

moms and your, you know, and your bosses

and it's real. And I can guarantee you

this was happening with the dudes.

Yeah. Like it'd be a gazillion dollar

whatever is over a trillion, gazillion.

I don't know. Um but just thinking about

that one podcast and the systems that

you're touching. Health, women's issues,

um family systems are affected. Like

that podcast hits 20 systems that I can

think of in my head right now. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat]

>> The divorce rates of people of women in

their 50s and 60s. Mhm. I mean, right?

Yes or no?

>> Yeah, 100% yeah. Right. So, a healthy

system has permeable boundaries, meaning

feedback is flowing in and out all the time.

time.

What happens when the world gets complex

is we start not wanting the feedback.

The complexity is too big. So, we start

shutting down those permeable

boundaries. Well, what happens to a

system where the boundaries are no

longer permeable? It atrophies.

And in the in the process of atrophying,

the system becomes self-referencing. Are

we good? We're great.

Are we right? We're right. Are we on

target? We're on target. Because the

boundaries of the system is are no

longer craving outside feedback even

when it's tough. And in businesses today,

today,

the geopolitical realities,

the market changes, AI, I mean, it's

crazy. Mhm. And so, our

our predisposition

predisposition

to shut down uncertainty and complexity

is the biggest threat to the systems in

which we work and live.

The self-protect, close the wall, put up

the drawbridge, fill the moat with piranhas.

piranhas.

We just don't have that luxury. We've

got to keep the the boundaries

permeable. We've got to keep learning,

guessing, unlearning, relearning. One of

the added complexities is the rise of

algorithms. And And actually, when I

think about algorithms that are powered

by AI, they're going to be even better

at knowing what you want to see so that

you spend time so that you consume more

adverts, which means

probably the best thing to show me is

either something really fearful or to to

confirm what I already believe.

>> 100%. An algorithm that was doing the

opposite probably wouldn't be an

enjoyable experience for the average

human brain. It would cause too much

dissonance, too much discomfort.

>> But great for democracy. Great. Yeah,

fantastic. But terrible for for running

a business and selling ads. So, any

company that takes that approach will go

bankrupt. This is why TikTok I think

have been so successful is the algorithm

is I don't use TikTok. It's I have a

TikTok account. I don't have the app on

my phone. But um from what I hear is

it's so unbelievably addictive. People

describe it to me and they're like, "Oh

my god, it's so addictive." But this

[ __ ] is the devil. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's

people are driven by incentives, right?

And you know, your

your share price is going to tumble and

you're going to be fired.

You're going to lose your your status

I'm playing devil's advocate. Obviously,

I'm not saying >> No,

>> No,

I No, I agree.

What do you think the solution is?

And what responsibility do

the bros who run these tech platforms have?

have?

It's complicated.

Well, I agree. I'm not looking for an

easy answer. Go ahead. Hit me. Well, and

I just think it's complicated because

what what an objective party would say,

who's just looking at the incentives of

these groups of people, is if they don't

do it,

then China will. So, even with AI now,

you know what I mean? I'm like I've sat

with all these experts and I keep

hitting up against this wall, which is

okay, if we just banned people in the

United States from pursuing this super

intelligence strategy, then Russia and

China get there first, then the United

States, unfortunately, are going to end

up being

China's French bulldog.

And actually, I can't refute that. I go,

"No, you're right." Cuz we would you'd

have to literally lease the technology

off them. It will be so powerful and

give such an economic advantage that you

will have to lease it off China. So,

you're like, "Okay, I guess Sam Altman

does need to crack on."

Or else

So, it's complicated.

>> I mean, this is where I end up every time.

time.

I mean, look what happened with TikTok.

China made an algorithm. It was

unbelievably addictive. The United

States have just had to buy it off them.

Because they were scared that the data

was going to be used against the United

States. It's a prime example. Like China

were like, "Fuck it, we don't care."

Yeah, right. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

And they made an unbelievable algorithm

called TikTok, which just captivated,

you know, the youth are all just like

losing their brains. So,

I don't know. I don't know. It's tough.

It's rough.

Spiritual crisis.

Yeah, I mean, you just laid it out.

You just laid it out.

We're emotionally dysregulated. We're

distrustful of each other. We don't

trust ourselves very much and we're

disconnected. I can't give up on people,

though. I'm not built that way.

Like I just believe that we are more

good than greedy.

You know, I I was in conversation with

Trevor Noah at an event.

And I mentioned this term that I I was

really excited about

And he challenged me on it.

And I said, I think what we need is

cognitive sovereignty. We need to

wrestle control

away from the algorithms

and decide what we consume, what we

read, how we think, think critically.

We need

to think about our attention and our focus

focus

as commodities that people are after.

>> Because they're after them, right? >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

He had an interesting point though. He

always has interesting points, don't you think?

think?

>> tough to to talk to Trevor because he's

so he's always got an interesting point.

>> He's always got an interesting point.

Damn it.

Um and he's funny. But he said, "No, we

need less cognitive sovereignty, Brené."

And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He

goes, "Everything's about the for you

page. Everything's for you. We need

communal sovereignty." He's like, "You

know, the whole problem is that your for

you page is completely sovereign. You

intellectually and spiritually" I'm I'm

I'm paraphrasing what he said. I'm sure

it was like

funnier and better looking, but um

um but

but

he he and then then I was trying to

think about like I guess maybe that's

not the right term. But let me let me

tell you what scares me the most.

I'm in I'm in some weird rooms because

of the nature of my job. I'm in rooms

where the people who run these platforms

and own and you know, that own the CEOs

of these business and the founders are

in these rooms. And I hear them talking

and I hear things that are so misaligned

that it panics me. So I hear someone

say, "Hey, you know, tech billionaire,

what what should my kids study? I'm

worried for my kids." Well, they should

study coding, physics, you know, and

then 5 minutes later as if that answer

didn't happen, someone will say,

"To what do you attribute your success?

I mean, deeply when you think about it."

And the same person will say,

"My deep philosophy and the Stoics."

And so then I'm thinking to myself,

well, which is it, dude?

And then I then I start to extrapolate

from there and wonder

if there is a thinking class that's emerging

emerging

where they're like, "We're going to read philosophy

philosophy

and we're going to read

the liberal arts and we're going to

study history.

And the rest of you, just keep

scrolling. Don't worry about the big words.

words.

Well, we'll handle all the big words for

you." Like it's like when they asked

Steve Jobs, "Well, your kids must love

the iPad."

Steve Jobs said,

"My kids don't have an iPad."

And then his biographer who spent time

with his family said, "He wasn't

kidding. There's no technology. At

dinner, they're talking about art and history."

history."

Mhm. The hardest chapter I've ever

written in my life of any book was the

chapter on grounded confidence in Strong Ground.

Ground.

What is the set of skill sets and

mindsets that I think we're going to

need to future ready and future proof

ourselves to be leaders moving forward?

And I think what was hard about it was

the complexity of it was probably a

combination of 30 different mindsets and

skill sets.

And when I was done,

you know, for commercial reasons,

someone on my team immediately said,

"Jeez, this is like a if you can train

people in these things, this is really

this is like really important."

And the first thing I thought was [ __ ]

that, my kids.

Train train schmain. I get it. It's

important. Like we'll we'll we'll we'll

develop some instrumentation, measure

it. We'll train folks in it. I think

it's trainable, it's teachable, it's measurable.

measurable.

But really, I want this for my kids.

I want my kids to know systems thinking.

I want my kids to know anticipatory

thinking, situational awareness,

temporal awareness.

I want my kids to have this complex set

of skills.

Do I want them to have jobs one day

where all they're worried about a

shareholder value? Really, no.

I want them to own their mind, own their

intellect, own their attention, and own

their focus.

I want them to read.

I want them to understand history.

history.

I want them to develop pattern

recognition skills cuz these are the

skills of the future. I want them to be

able to hold the tension of nuance and paradox

paradox

when everything in their brain is

saying, "Pick one, pick one, reconcile.

I'm uncomfortable. Pick one, reconcile.

I'm uncomfortable." That's neurobiology.

In those 20 in those 20 years of your 20

plus years of your career, what have you

been exposed to from a 30,000 foot

perspective? Like what

what are the the wide range of reference

points that you draw upon

to be the person that you are today? And

you know, cuz you've had you it feels

like you've got a very wide range of

references. Clearly, you know, you're

you're someone that cares a lot about

history. That comes through in your

answers, but I'm wondering in your

career like what are what are the

experiences that you've had? Have you

been working directly with patients? Is

it aca- academic reference points you're

drawing upon?

Yeah, um

no one's ever asked me this, which I've

been grateful that no one's asked me. Um

so what a pain in the ass, but um

because no one's going to like the

answer. I'm excited about the answer now.

now.

Everything. Like every single thing.

Um yes, I you know, I love history. Yes, I

I

read academic papers all the time. Yes,

I wake up in the morning and I read

because of the nature of my work, I read

The Wall Street Journal, The New York

Times, Bloomberg, The Financial Times.

Like I yeah, I mean I I I read and a

lot, but there's a chapter in the book

that was one of my favorite to write on

the transitions home from work.

Mhm. And how how how tough they are.

And how if you're like me, you've had a

very frustrated partner look at you more

than once in your life and say, "Hey,

I know it was stressful. I don't work

for you.

Change gears." Yeah.

Have you ever had that?

>> No comment. No comment. >> [laughter]

>> [laughter] >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

I use a metaphor

in that book in this chapter

of a lock.

And how did that come to me?

Because I was reading the book series

The Rivers of London.

And in that book series,

there are two gods of the Thames.

And the Teddington Lock is where out

right outside of London in Teddington is

where custody changes for them. So I

went to the Teddington Lock cuz I was

interested. I met the lockmaster

that runs the lock.

She gave me a 3-hour lesson that day. We

let narrowboats through the Thames.

I learned how lock works and that's the

metaphor that I use to talk about the

research on what do we do when we spend

all day locking in,

hyperfocused, compartmentalizing,

getting [ __ ] done.

And then instead of going home to our

partner, when we get home, we spend 30

minutes in the garage on TikTok cuz we

can't bear to go in.

So why do we do that? Because we need a

lock through period. We need time to go

into a chamber metaphorically,

change levels,

let go of where we were, lower ourselves

to the rhythm of what we're doing now.

Cognitively we'd call it cognitive and

domain shifting.

And we need time. So I looked at the

lockmaster at uh Teddington and said,

"This should just take you a long time.

Can we get this chamber filled up a

little bit quicker?"

And she said, "Locking through takes

what locking through takes. If you rush

it, you risk capsizing."

We get home and then we walk in the back

door and it's like, "I can't find my

shin guards. I think I left them on the

pitch. Where are my goggles, Mom? Oh my

god, you didn't sign the permission

slip. I had to sneak into the zoo." You

know, and you're like,

"Take me back to work where I'm the boss

of everything." You [laughter] know. So

where do I learn those things? Well,

cognitive and domain shifting come out

of psychology.

Gemma, the lockmaster at Teddington,

there's wisdom everywhere.

I put it together as your stories and

metaphors. I mean, another thing in the

book. I mean, I'm standing on the

sideline at DKR, the University of Texas

Longhorn football stadium. Um and I'm

standing with Emmanuel Acho.

Do you know Emmanuel? No. Yeah, he's

great. He played for the Longhorns. He

played for the NFL. Now he's a writer.

So I'm standing there and we're watching

the game and I look at him and I go,

"How would you define pocket presence?"

And pocket presence is an American

football term. So do you know American

football? Okay. So I'm a quarterback.

I'm going to get the ball and I have to

throw the ball or run the ball or hand

off the ball to get the ball down the

pitch, down the field, right? >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat]

>> And when when the ball is snapped and

the ball is put into motion,

there's about 1,200 lb of really angry

people trying to drive me into the ground.

ground.

The people that are protecting me from

those defensive guys are called my

offensive line. Mhm. And the way they

[clears throat] do it is they form a

pocket around the quarterback.

And the quarterback uses that time to

decide where am I going to throw the

ball? Am I going to run the ball? And

pocket presence is the ability of a

quarterback to use the on average 2.8 to

3 seconds he has to read the field,

understand where the defenders are, and

make a decision.

And so when I asked Emmanuel Acho, "How

would you define pocket presence?" He said,

said,

and I want you to think about this in

terms of your business.

The ability to read the field without

seeing all of it.

And trusting your team well enough

to make a move

even though you can't see everything. Mhm.

Mhm.

What are the skill sets you need right

there? One, temporal awareness.

You got to know how much time you have

to get rid of that ball and get it down

the field. They they say Tom Brady, who

played for the Patriots, is any of this

ringing a bell?

>> Yeah, I know who you mean. Great. Tom Brady.

Brady.

They said his pocket presence was so

good, he could tell where his offensive

linemen were by the vibrations through

his his cleats on the field.

So, temporal awareness, situational

awareness, what's going on, anticipatory awareness.

awareness.

Think about a great football player.

Right? Think about Masala.

You don't kick the ball to where the

striker is. You kick the ball to where

the striker's going to be. Mhm. So,

anticipatory and situational awareness, right?

right? >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

Pattern recognition.

Have I been in this situation before? Do

I know how to, you know,

where is the goalie in the cage? Where

are they standing right now? Like and so

I'll take my inspiration from sports all

the time, which is why there's so many

sports metaphors.

Right? Mhm. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat]

>> I think there's not a better sports a

better metaphor to describe work right

now than

American League Football.

One of the things that um perhaps is is

throughout your work is this idea of

connection. I did a mushroom

I did magic mushrooms with my girlfriend

a couple of years ago, the first time

I've ever done it. And um

the message that came through for me was

it was about connection. And that word

has had a fond place in my heart ever

since. It's been really, really

important. And we live in a society

that's more lonely than ever before,

more disconnected in many ways, as you

described when you're referencing the

spiritual crisis that we're living in.

This word connection, what does that

mean? Does it mean on an individual

basis? Does it mean me having friends

and relationships? Is that connection?

Is that the type of connection I should

be looking for? Or does it need Do I

need to like Do you think people need to

ladder up further to

their city, their town, their world,

to the community, to something bigger? God.

God.

What What does connection mean in this context?

context? >> Yes.

I think the answer to that question is

yes. We're neuro- neurobiologically

hardwired to be in connection with other

people. And in the absence of

connection, there's always suffering.

Always suffering in the absence of

connection. So, I think

I mean, just how we're built, mirror

neurons, you know, our ability to sync

up neurobiologically when we feel

connected and are hearing each other.

So, to me, connection is the ability to

be in a relationship where we can both

give and receive, where we feel seen,

heard, believed, valued.

That is that human connection is really

important on a micro level, one-on-one

with other human beings.

I think a sense of belonging and a sense

of place,

and I don't know that that necessarily

needs to be a location, but

a sense of being a part of something

bigger than you,

I think is also important. So, love and belonging,

belonging,

I I think spirituality I define

spirituality is being inextricably

connected to other people by something

bigger than us. Maybe that's love, maybe

that's God,

maybe that's fishing. Like I I you know,

it's different for other people. For me,

I'm faith is one of my values and I'm a

a pretty serious God person.

Um I'm a pretty deep person of faith. I

guess I would ask somebody,

"What is that thing

that transcends difference?

difference?

Political difference, ideological

difference, race, gender, you know,

belief systems, class, what is it

that brings you to a common humanity place?"

Like for me, it's God. That's it's a big challenge.

challenge.

Cuz like I I try to work from an ethos

where I try to find God in the face of

everybody that I meet, even if I want to

punch you in the throat. I try to like

Like like that's my thing. In some way,

I'm connected to you. Mhm. Whether I

like it or not and whether I like you or not.

And when you talk about belonging, it's

interesting in your book Braving the

Wilderness, which I think the question's

kind of summed up by the subtitle here.

The quest for true belonging and the

courage to stand alone. This appears to

be a dichotomy or a contradiction. Mhm.

To belong, but also to stand alone. >> Mhm.

Why are both of these important? Why is

it important to belong? What does that

mean? And And why is it also important to

to

stand alone?

Cuz I don't think you can truly belong

to anything or any or or any group if

you don't belong to yourself first.

True belonging

requires us to be who we are,

not to change who we are. That's fitting

in. Fitting in is the greatest threat to belonging.

belonging. Mhm.

Mhm.

Which takes us both back to our

childhoods, right?

>> Mhm. Yeah. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in.

in.

The problem is that that chameleon

means that in order to fit in, the first

person you betray is yourself. We've got

to be able to stand alone.

And that's what's happening right now in

the world. I mean, if I if I look back

at Braving the Wilderness,

that was maybe the only prophetic book

that I think I've ever written. Like

that Like Like that I don't think I'm

profit like, but man, did I call what

was happening in terms of the big sort

into ideological bunkers, where we are

going to get to a place where

I don't even know you, but I'm going to

call you friend because we hate the same people.

And you over there,

I actually do love you.

You're a family member of mine.

But I'm not, you know, because we don't

believe in the same things,

you have no meaning in my life. Like

it's like we have gotten to the place where

where

ideological bunkers,

and those are so dangerous cuz here you

and I like let's say let's say that we

have the same belief around immigration.

Um so we're going to flip this table

over and we're going to get behind it in

our ideological bunker and we're going

to be like, "Yeah, we're right and these

guys are [ __ ] crazy and [ __ ] y'all."

You know, and then one day I'm going to

turn to you and say, "You know, one

thing I'm wondering about

is how are we going to solve the problem >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat]

>> with the folks coming over

in the dinghies

from France? Cuz I don't think we're

going to be able to go without solving it

it

because we do have an employment issue

and a housing crisis." And then you go,

"You're out."

My My care for you, my connection with

you, completely dependent

on you not questioning anything we

What's real connection? Like I got to

know what's going on in your mind cuz

your face is like We got to play poker.

We got to put that on our agenda. >> [laughter]

>> [laughter]

>> What are you thinking? I was just

thinking about being a podcaster and I

sit here with all types of people. So, I

had Kamala Harris sat here

>> Mhm. uh

3 or 4 days ago and I'll have someone on

the right sat here. You know, and then

I'll have maybe Michelle Obama, then

I'll have Jordan Peterson, then I'll

have the opposite of whatever Jordan

Peterson is. And I was just thinking

about how um

how that's also kind of made me feel

like I don't belong

because that is quite rare.

There's probably not a podcaster on

Earth that has had both Michelle Obama

and Jordan Peterson.

No. Yeah. And then Kamala Harris after

that. Like I didn't manage to scare

Michelle off. I didn't scare Jordan off.

And so

you get you kind of get attacked from

both sides. Oh, I mean, look,

if you're not if you're not

getting threatening [ __ ]

from the far

here, the far left or the far right, if

you're not getting both, you're not

doing your job.

>> Amen. Yeah.

>> Period. But it's tough. Oh God, it is heartbreaking.

heartbreaking. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

It will break your heart and it will

remind you of why standing alone

is on the front of that book. Mhm.

Because what it will do it is it is

Winnow the right word? It will narrow

your belonging, your true belonging,

down to

a very few people.

>> I mean, I completely understand how it

happens that a podcaster like me will

end up picking a side because there is

safety in numbers. Well, cuz there's an

ideological bunker cuz we flipped the

table over. 100% At any point, you know,

when the left attacks you, I'm like,

"Wow, the right looks pretty." When the

right attacks you, you go, "Oh, the left

looks pretty."

Because standing in the in no man's land is

is

is not the place you want to be.

I know I'm never going to succeed in

this. Like I know I'm never going to

succeed in converting people converting

people to be nuanced and to not get

viscerally angry when I have someone on

the show who's on the right or

viscerally angry when I have someone on

the show who's on the left. I'm already

aware that when the Kamala episode comes

out, it's just going to be a bunch of

people that didn't listen and within the

first 3 minutes, the comment section's

just going to be [ __ ] you.

>> Yeah. And I'm like part of me is trying

to win that war with my audience, where

they too will just listen.

And I know that you don't agree with the

person, but can you just listen?

Cuz that's what I do, and it's not some

act I'm putting on. It's not like I walk

out there and I start but I I'm

right-wing in my kitchen or left-wing in

my kitchen. Genuinely, the brain where

my brain works is oh, I see this this

good in this individual.

And then I meet someone else who's on

the other side and I say oh, there's a

couple of points of good that I agree

upon I agree with them on this.

That's how I am, and it feels so weird.

Because when you go on the internet, you

don't find yourself

being compelled by either side entirely. No.

No.

No, and I think it's really confusing,

and the only limit I have really is I am

not probably going to have a

If your beliefs question my humanity.

Okay. That that's going to be my line.

That that's going to be that's going to

be the line for me is going to be

if you're cruel

or name-calling Yeah.

or if your core beliefs about who I am Mhm.

Mhm. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat]

>> or who other people are are dehumanizing.

dehumanizing.

I I I can't I can't that I can't do

because now I've betrayed myself in

order to make a political point about

nuance. Yeah. Because that because you know

know

dehumanization is a really interesting

and hard thing.

When you study when you look at the

research of people who study dehumanization

dehumanization

and you we talked about earlier with the

There is a circle of moral inclusion.

We are not built

we are not hardwired to hurt each other,

to kill each other

It's not we're not wired for it

actually. So, in order

to do that

you you've got a person here inside your

moral inclusion.

In order to be okay with that, you've

got to push them outside of moral

inclusion to be morally excluded from

somebody you see as human and worthy of

moral inclusion. And the first step to

moral exclusion

moving people out of a safety zone where

you don't do horrible things to them

the first way to move people out is

language. throughout history

you hear people in this administration

calling a a community of immigrants an infestation.

infestation.

The same way we would talk about animals

or rats.

You know, and so my only limit

to hard conversation is

is

if you're operating from an ideology

where women are dogs

immigrants are illegals. You know, if

you're operating from that place of

you are too dangerous for me.

But other than that, I'd probably be

willing to have a conversation with

anyone. But I can understand why people

pick sides. I tell you what, it is

lonely. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

It's nice to hear that. It's really nice

Yeah.

We've talked about it quite a lot, me

and Jack um who's been producing the

show since the very beginning. Uh we've

we've talked a lot about how

we understand the temptation to pick a

side. And actually, one of the greatest

compliments a journalist has ever given me

me

is they wrote in the article, and this

wasn't a journalist that liked me, they

just said um

we're unable to

ascertain which political party he is

part of.

I thought that was a great compliment because

because

I mean

>> it means that

That's that's a journal that's a

journalistic ethos. I think they would

want to pin me down and say he's [ __ ]

they'd love to say I'm right-wing or

Yeah. something else.

But they said um in a not very nice

piece they'd written about me whatever,

they said that he

we're unable to figure out what side

he's part of. And I think that's a

compliment because it's it's true and it

I think it allows me to do my job better

that I don't have too many

preconceptions when I meet people. I try

to meet people for the first time.

Which I enjoy. I think you're pretty

good at that cuz you are insatiably

curious. Mhm. It's it's lovely and terrible.

terrible.

Why terrible? It's terrible for an avoidant.

avoidant.

I found this out recently. I've known it

my whole life, but I found it out

recently cuz I had a conversation with

someone. If someone's I think if

someone's uncomfortable with

vulnerability, then I'm like their

[ __ ] worst nightmare.

>> YOU ARE. >> [laughter]

>> [laughter]

>> WHICH IS INTERESTING CUZ I DON'T EXPECT

YOU as super vulnerable. Really? Uh

Uh

Maybe not.

>> Carefully optimistic vulnerable. Yeah,

that's probably Like like you're you're

cognitively a believer Yeah.

>> and trying to move the rest of you to it.

You've got the journalistic ethos of

equal opportunity

insatiable curious guy, right? >> Mhm.

>> Mhm.

What do you think the responsibility is

to vet or understand the credibility

especially when it comes to science or

those kind of things of what their guest

is saying.

I think that we

the school of podcasters haven't really

we don't have the um

the ex the training that journalists do.

So, we're almost catching up in that

regard, especially if you become a big

podcaster because you're kind of held

you're held at a in a different level.

So, more recently, one of the things we

do is we we've hired a I mean this

recently was a year and a half ago. We

hired a PhD who does exactly that, who

after this comes out will go through

everything that you said and then put on

not within scientific consensus. But

is a decision. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not a choice without consequence

What led you to that choice?

When your podcast reaches lots of people

you're forced It's kind of going goes

what I said earlier about the political

stuff. You're forced to really get clear

on what you believe and like what

matters to you. And one of the things

that matters to me is that the stuff we

put into the world, we feel like it's

helping people even if it's not nice.

And it kind of goes to something that I

read in your work, which is like our

objective isn't to be

nice, it's to be kind. Oh, yeah. And so,

for example, my convers- the

conversations we have about AI, like I'm

well aware that that's not going to

necessarily make you feel great. But

But

I think the avoidance of discomfort in

in through history Oh god. hasn't led to

great places. So, like if you think

there's a bus coming, I can you know, it's

it's

I can pretend there isn't, but if I

think that there might be a bus coming

and if if experts in are telling me

there's a bus coming, I think we should

have a conversation about the bus

coming. And actually, me having that

conversation, I get messages all the

time which is like please stop talking

about this subject. It doesn't make me

feel good.

I'm very anchored to like what my my my

job is here, and I think it's we can

push people further

towards uh

honest conversations.

So, when the podcast got bigger and you

get more and more you get attacked more

for any any of your guests that you have

on, you have to get clear on what

matters to you and what your job is. And

so, one of the things I thought is

actually when we have these

conversations, I want them to be as

accurate as they possibly can be.

For the listener who might be confused

cuz it's a confusing world in this new

world of democratized media. So

So

we do that.

>> I really respect that. I just want to

say um I don't think

that that choice

is the easy choice.

What is the easy choice do you think?

The easy choice is

I'm going to let you

say whatever you want

and I'll let my listeners sort out if

it's real or not. Mhm.

Mhm. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat]

>> And I'll take no responsibility for the credibility

credibility

or the facts that are being presented.

Mhm. Um

what I think is interesting about what

you're doing is

it just seems like a very solid approach where

I'm a big believer in science. You know,

I'm married to a physician. I'm a social

scientist. Like I'm I'm I'm not going to

be the golden child of this

administration when it comes to science

for sure. Like I have a I love science Mhm.

Mhm.

shirt that I wear with a DNA scarf. So,

like I'm I'm like I'm very real about that.

that.

I also don't think

that everything that we see

that is projected as peer-reviewed

clinical trial, you know, I think

challenges to that system are also

important. I think science cannot be a

self-referencing system anymore than any

other system can be. So, to have people

that have different opinions or new

opinions Mhm. on

but to let your listeners or your

viewers know that this is not an opinion

where there's a lot of a data collected

or that this is a controversial opinion

is respecting people's cognitive self-determination.

self-determination.

I I just think it's a it's it's an

interesting way to do it. I just I I think

think

I launched the podcast and it became

very big during COVID.

I got you. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so

Houston is home to the biggest medical

center in the world.

Like in the world.

And I live in the medical center area.

In the beginning there were just, you

know, it just there never stopped being

funerals for physicians and people

working on COVID. And so to hear on

podcast that it doesn't exist. Yeah. Or that you can use, you know,

Yeah. Or that you can use, you know, Windex or you know, like some [ __ ]

Windex or you know, like some [ __ ] like that.

like that. I I just started to and then I got into

I I just started to and then I got into a little dust-up around it in my own

a little dust-up around it in my own situation. And so

situation. And so I'm always interested as we enter this

I'm always interested as we enter this world in

world in platform and podcast responsibility.

platform and podcast responsibility. It is a it's a slippery slope and it's

It is a it's a slippery slope and it's um

um >> Berry. And there's no

>> Berry. And there's no there's no perfect outcome. Like you

there's no perfect outcome. Like you don't want to go too far either way,

don't want to go too far either way, right? You don't want to like have the

right? You don't want to like have the government get involved and tell you

government get involved and tell you what truth is or

what truth is or >> Right. But you also don't want to stray

>> Right. But you also don't want to stray into um conspiracy land and um Right.

into um conspiracy land and um Right. >> away from science because

>> away from science because you know.

There are things that are knowable. Yeah, there are things that are

Yeah, there are things that are knowable. But

knowable. But >> Yeah. But

>> Yeah. But I don't know. I I I just think it's an

I don't know. I I I just think it's an interesting question for this time and I

interesting question for this time and I think it's an interesting question when

think it's an interesting question when you have a platform that's powerful.

you have a platform that's powerful. And I think if you're doing the best you

And I think if you're doing the best you can to make decisions based What What is

can to make decisions based What What is the question

the question >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat] >> that drives your decision-making? For

>> that drives your decision-making? For me? No, like just in general. Yeah,

me? No, like just in general. Yeah, I got yours. You want you want to you

I got yours. You want you want to you want to help your listeners and you want

want to help your listeners and you want to do good. Yeah. Um that's a different

to do good. Yeah. Um that's a different thing than downloads.

thing than downloads. You can do both. You can do both. But if

You can do both. You can do both. But if your only filter Well, oh you you'd go

your only filter Well, oh you you'd go for [ __ ] total conspiracy. Yeah.

for [ __ ] total conspiracy. Yeah. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I

>> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I just think it's I just think it's an

just think it's I just think it's an interesting question. I don't have an

interesting question. I don't have an answer. I just know that it's an

answer. I just know that it's an important question. Yeah, and you know

important question. Yeah, and you know what? I'll be honest so as um

what? I'll be honest so as um I mean we're not journalists we're not

I mean we're not journalists we're not journalists here. So we don't really

journalists here. So we don't really understand the rigor and I've got a lot

understand the rigor and I've got a lot of respect for journalists and the the

of respect for journalists and the the effort they've put in to understand the

effort they've put in to understand the journalistic method and all those

journalistic method and all those things. I feel like we're somewhat

things. I feel like we're somewhat catching up. We didn't this podcast went

catching up. We didn't this podcast went from zero to 70 million people a month

from zero to 70 million people a month in

in 4 and 1/2 years or something. Hard. So

4 and 1/2 years or something. Hard. So and we're just [ __ ] holding on. Like

and we're just [ __ ] holding on. Like me and Jack didn't run a podcast before.

me and Jack didn't run a podcast before. So I didn't run one before and so

So I didn't run one before and so we're now catching up and part of the

we're now catching up and part of the part of the way that we're shaped is

part of the way that we're shaped is with feedback and you get lots of

with feedback and you get lots of feedback. Don't have this person. I'll

feedback. Don't have this person. I'll never speak to this person again. Don't

never speak to this person again. Don't know. And you kind of get back that

know. And you kind of get back that stuff off but if there's any ever

stuff off but if there's any ever anything that actually feedback that

anything that actually feedback that actually isn't contra- contradiction

actually isn't contra- contradiction that does test your own mission or your

that does test your own mission or your own values, then you listen and you will

own values, then you listen and you will you know

you know you can start to innovate and one of the

you can start to innovate and one of the things that we thought was smart was to

things that we thought was smart was to have the pop-ups on screen which

have the pop-ups on screen which everybody is probably familiar with by

everybody is probably familiar with by now. And it's a balancing act. We don't

now. And it's a balancing act. We don't want to completely discredit everything

want to completely discredit everything that a guest has to say but we also just

that a guest has to say but we also just want to give context. And that's kind of

want to give context. And that's kind of context what they're saying. If

context what they're saying. If something's ridiculous we'll just remove

something's ridiculous we'll just remove it. Like if something's absolutely we

it. Like if something's absolutely we will not publish the episode is probably

will not publish the episode is probably a better way of saying it. We had a

a better way of saying it. We had a couple of episodes where people said

couple of episodes where people said some guest said some things which were

some guest said some things which were just

just absolutely [ __ ] crazy. You don't need

absolutely [ __ ] crazy. You don't need a PhD to know that

a PhD to know that you can't exercise by lying on the

you can't exercise by lying on the ground. Like I think this one guest had

ground. Like I think this one guest had said to me

said to me that you can build your muscles just by

that you can build your muscles just by laying on your back or whatever and

laying on your back or whatever and not doing anything. We just didn't

not doing anything. We just didn't publish the episode.

publish the episode. >> I can just say as a PhD that I have

>> I can just say as a PhD that I have attempted that.

attempted that. Yeah, it doesn't work. And it was FOR

Yeah, it doesn't work. And it was FOR JACK [ __ ]

JACK [ __ ] >> [laughter]

>> [laughter] >> I THINK JACK MADE A GOOD POINT. I GIVE

>> I THINK JACK MADE A GOOD POINT. I GIVE YOU A PHD on the just laying still.

YOU A PHD on the just laying still. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I think that I respect the approach.

No, I think that I respect the approach. And it's

And it's >> one of the reasons I decided to come on.

>> one of the reasons I decided to come on. Cuz I respect the approach. We're not

Cuz I respect the approach. We're not perfect but we're trying.

perfect but we're trying. And it's tough, you know.

And it's tough, you know. >> That's the thing that you're walking a

>> That's the thing that you're walking a path.

path. The world of business looks entirely

The world of business looks entirely different today than it did 15 years

different today than it did 15 years ago. Back then building a brand meant

ago. Back then building a brand meant having huge budgets, warehouses, office

having huge budgets, warehouses, office space and lots of lots of staff. But now

space and lots of lots of staff. But now you can start a business with your

you can start a business with your laptop, an idea and the right tools and

laptop, an idea and the right tools and I would know more so than anybody else

I would know more so than anybody else because that's exactly what I did.

because that's exactly what I did. Shopify is one of our long-standing

Shopify is one of our long-standing sponsors on the show and they're a brand

sponsors on the show and they're a brand I often refer people to when they're

I often refer people to when they're starting their businesses because it's a

starting their businesses because it's a tool that contains many more tools

tool that contains many more tools within itself. And when you're starting

within itself. And when you're starting out everything is everywhere. It's messy

out everything is everywhere. It's messy and it's confusing so having everything

and it's confusing so having everything in the same place is incredibly useful.

in the same place is incredibly useful. Shopify puts store design, payments,

Shopify puts store design, payments, inventory, shipping and even AI tools

inventory, shipping and even AI tools all in one place and you can sell

all in one place and you can sell directly from your website or on social

directly from your website or on social media, essentially wherever your

media, essentially wherever your customers spend their time. It's truly a

customers spend their time. It's truly a brilliant business tool. So if you want

brilliant business tool. So if you want to give it a go, head to

to give it a go, head to shopify.com/bartlett

shopify.com/bartlett and sign up for your $1 per month trial

and sign up for your $1 per month trial period. That's shopify.com/bartlett.

period. That's shopify.com/bartlett. On that point about me and vulnerability

On that point about me and vulnerability is vulnerability important? Cuz there's

is vulnerability important? Cuz there's a lot of performative vulnerability

a lot of performative vulnerability taking place in the

taking place in the Is is it an important thing for my

Is is it an important thing for my health, happiness

health, happiness my future to be a vulnerable person?

my future to be a vulnerable person? Well, let's define it. Um vulnerability

Well, let's define it. Um vulnerability is the emotion we experience when we

is the emotion we experience when we have when we are up against uncertainty

have when we are up against uncertainty risk and emotional exposure.

risk and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is what I feel.

So vulnerability is what I feel. It's the cringe.

It's the cringe. The awkward, the thing that I the

The awkward, the thing that I the emotion I feel in times of uncertainty,

emotion I feel in times of uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. So it was

risk or emotional exposure. So it was really interesting because I had a hard

really interesting because I had a hard time helping people understand because

time helping people understand because there's we are so raised to believe that

there's we are so raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness

vulnerability is weakness that it took a trip to Fort Bragg

that it took a trip to Fort Bragg working with special forces to ask

working with special forces to ask soldiers a question. Give me a single

soldiers a question. Give me a single example of courage in your life. One

example of courage in your life. One example that you've witnessed or you you

example that you've witnessed or you you yourself have done. One example of

yourself have done. One example of courage that did not require

courage that did not require uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure.

uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. No one could answer it. Finally a young

No one could answer it. Finally a young soldier stood up and said three tours.

soldier stood up and said three tours. There is no courage without

There is no courage without vulnerability. So is vulnerability

vulnerability. So is vulnerability important? It is if we want to be brave

important? It is if we want to be brave with our lives.

with our lives. If we if we want to be able to manage

If we if we want to be able to manage ourselves in a way

ourselves in a way that's values-aligned

that's values-aligned and courageous, we have to be able to

and courageous, we have to be able to reconcile how we feel when we're

reconcile how we feel when we're uncertain, at risk or exposed. I mean

uncertain, at risk or exposed. I mean and really weirdly

and really weirdly the next week after the trip to Fort

the next week after the trip to Fort Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks,

Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks, the football team, NFL team. Asked the

the football team, NFL team. Asked the players

players give me an example of courage on the

give me an example of courage on the field or off

field or off that did not require vulnerability.

that did not require vulnerability. They said that it's not possible. There

They said that it's not possible. There is no courage. Like if you're doing

is no courage. Like if you're doing things in your life in your work

things in your life in your work and there's no risk, no uncertainty

and there's no risk, no uncertainty and no exposure, then they're not brave.

and no exposure, then they're not brave. If you know how it's going to end

If you know how it's going to end that is not courage.

that is not courage. Courage is the willingness to show up

Courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict

and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome.

the outcome. Courage is saying I love you first.

Courage is saying I love you first. >> [snorts]

>> [snorts] >> That's you you want to know what

>> That's you you want to know what vulnerability is? I love you first. Have

vulnerability is? I love you first. Have you ever said I love you first?

Uh I'm not sure. Yeah. It's been a while.

while. >> But it's hard. It's you know.

>> But it's hard. It's you know. >> So I need to give context. It's been a

>> So I need to give context. It's been a while since I've been in that situation.

while since I've been in that situation. Well, you had to go first. Yeah, we're

Well, you had to go first. Yeah, we're not going to go first here. Yeah. I mean

not going to go first here. Yeah. I mean there's this great story that I tell

there's this great story that I tell about

about I I gave a talk here. It was actually in

I I gave a talk here. It was actually in LA and afterwards a kid came up to me.

LA and afterwards a kid came up to me. He's probably 22 or 23 and he said, "Can

He's probably 22 or 23 and he said, "Can I tell you a story about your work and

I tell you a story about your work and how it's really changed my life?" And I

how it's really changed my life?" And I was like, "Sure." And a kind of crowd

was like, "Sure." And a kind of crowd grew around and this is like the last

grew around and this is like the last time I ever got penned like not being

time I ever got penned like not being able to exit a stage

able to exit a stage because it was such a traumatic It

because it was such a traumatic It wasn't traumatic but it was like he

wasn't traumatic but it was like he said, "Well, I was dating this woman

said, "Well, I was dating this woman and I was so crazy about her. So I took

and I was so crazy about her. So I took her to eat to our favorite restaurant

her to eat to our favorite restaurant and I waited until the dessert came

and I waited until the dessert came because we love this chocolate volcano

because we love this chocolate volcano and I ordered it and I said,

and I ordered it and I said, "I love you."

"I love you." And she looked at me and she said, "I

And she looked at me and she said, "I think you're awesome.

And I think we should date other people."

And so I was like, "God damn, this is the worst story I've ever

the worst story I've ever >> [laughter]

>> [laughter] >> This is not a good story." And he said,

>> This is not a good story." And he said, "So I got in my car and I drove home and

"So I got in my car and I drove home and the whole way home

the whole way home I just kept saying to myself over and

I just kept saying to myself over and over, [ __ ] Brené Brown. [ __ ] Brené

over, [ __ ] Brené Brown. [ __ ] Brené Brown."

Brown." I'm like,

I'm like, "When does this When When's the turn on

"When does this When When's the turn on the story, you know?" And he said, "I

the story, you know?" And he said, "I got home and I walked into my apartment

got home and I walked into my apartment and I pushed the door open

and I pushed the door open and both my roommates were wired in and

and both my roommates were wired in and they were on their computers and they

they were on their computers and they looked up and said, 'Dude, what's going

looked up and said, 'Dude, what's going on?'"

on?'" And he said,

And he said, "I told her I loved her

"I told her I loved her and she told me I was awesome."

and she told me I was awesome." And one of my roommates looked at me and

And one of my roommates looked at me and said, "What the [ __ ] were you thinking?

said, "What the [ __ ] were you thinking? That's not how it works. When you are

That's not how it works. When you are going toward them, they go away. So

going toward them, they go away. So you're always kind of going away so they

you're always kind of going away so they come toward you." And he goes, "Oh. Oh,

come toward you." And he goes, "Oh. Oh, no.

no. No.

No. I don't want to I don't want to be that

I don't want to I don't want to be that dude.

dude. I was daring greatly."

I was daring greatly." And he said both of his roommates just

And he said both of his roommates just got teary-eyed and went, "Right on, man.

got teary-eyed and went, "Right on, man. Right on." Like

Right on." Like there is no courage without

there is no courage without vulnerability.

vulnerability. How can you say you're brave

How can you say you're brave if you're not putting yourself out

if you're not putting yourself out there?

there? So many people have been through things

So many people have been through things which have made it very, very difficult

which have made it very, very difficult for them to be

for them to be vulnerable.

vulnerable. I was speaking to someone yesterday who

I was speaking to someone yesterday who was cheated on

was cheated on bunch of attachment issues in their

bunch of attachment issues in their early childhood. And funnily enough,

early childhood. And funnily enough, when I was talking to her about I was

when I was talking to her about I was asking her questions about cuz I'm very

asking her questions about cuz I'm very deep personal I just carries over into

deep personal I just carries over into my personal life. I was asking her

my personal life. I was asking her questions about the things you know

questions about the things you know she'd been through and whatever else.

she'd been through and whatever else. She just shuts down. And she told me

She just shuts down. And she told me that she she um

that she she um >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat] >> What were the exact words? She said that

>> What were the exact words? She said that she finds vulnerability

she finds vulnerability to be a form of intimacy that she tries

to be a form of intimacy that she tries to stay away from because

to stay away from because she needs to really really really trust

she needs to really really really trust the person before she opens up. And I

the person before she opens up. And I think this is a trend you see across a

think this is a trend you see across a lot of people they

lot of people they they won't open up enough to form a

they won't open up enough to form a connection

connection because they've been hurt before by

because they've been hurt before by opening up.

opening up. And it feels too scary to do that. And

And it feels too scary to do that. And that results in them being single,

that results in them being single, alone, unhappy,

alone, unhappy, so on and so on.

so on and so on. Yeah, I mean I think there's there what

Yeah, I mean I think there's there what you said was so loaded

you said was so loaded with so many things. So first of all,

with so many things. So first of all, there's there there there's this very

there's there there there's this very interesting relationship between

interesting relationship between vulnerability and trust.

vulnerability and trust. And how does that work? And

And how does that work? And people always ask me what comes first,

people always ask me what comes first, trust or vulnerability? Do I trust you

trust or vulnerability? Do I trust you first then I'm vulnerable or am I

first then I'm vulnerable or am I vulnerable first and then I trust you?

vulnerable first and then I trust you? And I think it's a very slow stacking.

And I think it's a very slow stacking. We get to know each other. I share a

We get to know each other. I share a little bit. I don't I don't share Hey,

little bit. I don't I don't share Hey, nice to meet you Steven. Here's my

nice to meet you Steven. Here's my darkest horrible most painful trauma,

darkest horrible most painful trauma, you know, cuz that that is actually

you know, cuz that that is actually that kind of litmus testing is actually

that kind of litmus testing is actually a form of armor. I'm going to throw

a form of armor. I'm going to throw something at you

something at you that our relationship in no way has been

that our relationship in no way has been built long enough to hold. You're going

built long enough to hold. You're going to go away and I'm going to use that as

to go away and I'm going to use that as verification that vulnerability is

verification that vulnerability is dangerous. Like That's litmus testing.

dangerous. Like That's litmus testing. Mhm. Let me prove to you

Mhm. Let me prove to you that you're not trustworthy. Na na na na

that you're not trustworthy. Na na na na na na na Oh, I see you're backing away.

na na na Oh, I see you're backing away. That's what I thought.

That's what I thought. I'm backing away because we haven't

I'm backing away because we haven't built a relationship that can bear the

built a relationship that can bear the weight of this story.

weight of this story. Can we start Can we start small? Okay.

Can we start Can we start small? Okay. Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability,

Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust.

trust, vulnerability, trust. Mhm.

Mhm. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat] >> I think

>> I think I get in that in my work we call that

I get in that in my work we call that like the smash and grab. Like I'm going

like the smash and grab. Like I'm going to I'm going to hit you with something

to I'm going to hit you with something really big and then watch you go away

really big and then watch you go away and use it as evidence.

and use it as evidence. Mhm. Yeah.

Mhm. Yeah. And it takes a really skilled person to

And it takes a really skilled person to say

say yeah, I'm really

yeah, I'm really I'm taking in what you told me. I want

I'm taking in what you told me. I want to be respectful and honor that.

to be respectful and honor that. And

And I don't have a way to file it right now

I don't have a way to file it right now cuz I don't know you well enough.

cuz I don't know you well enough. So I appreciate the share I mean we also

So I appreciate the share I mean we also call it spotlighting. So like if I had a

call it spotlighting. So like if I had a military grade spotlight that they use

military grade spotlight that they use in the wilderness. I work with the

in the wilderness. I work with the military a lot. And I I picked it up and

military a lot. And I I picked it up and put it in your face right here. What

put it in your face right here. What would you do physically? Uh

would you do physically? Uh That's what that's our reaction to too

That's what that's our reaction to too much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like

much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like yeah, I don't know I don't know you.

yeah, I don't know I don't know you. Yeah. Um

Yeah. Um So you're talking about the slow

So you're talking about the slow stacking of courage and of vulnerability

stacking of courage and of vulnerability and trust. And then you're also talking

and trust. And then you're also talking about that when

about that when >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat] >> when we've had a lot of hard things

>> when we've had a lot of hard things happen to us,

happen to us, I think this is where I really believe

I think this is where I really believe in the democratization of coaching and

in the democratization of coaching and therapy that a lot of times we have to

therapy that a lot of times we have to work with people. Like we have to get

work with people. Like we have to get help

help to be able to open up and take off some

to be able to open up and take off some of the armor that we put on because

of the armor that we put on because sometimes that armor

sometimes that armor that we put on is freaking survival.

that we put on is freaking survival. I mean and you want to start adding you

I mean and you want to start adding you want to start adding variables like

want to start adding variables like race,

race, gender,

gender, like you know,

like you know, any anything where there's social

any anything where there's social systems also at play. That's survival.

systems also at play. That's survival. Like telling me right now at my career

Like telling me right now at my career like hey, you should be vulnerable with

like hey, you should be vulnerable with your new team. And and talk about your

your new team. And and talk about your previous failures, you know. Well, of

previous failures, you know. Well, of course I could do that and I would do it

course I could do that and I would do it and everybody would clap and they'd

and everybody would clap and they'd think man, she's so brave. And take the

think man, she's so brave. And take the new person who's a young black woman or

new person who's a young black woman or the new first LGBTQ person on a team and

the new first LGBTQ person on a team and say hey, tell tell every Don't tell

say hey, tell tell every Don't tell anybody [ __ ]

anybody [ __ ] Develop trust first.

Develop trust first. Develop uh see how how trust your own

Develop uh see how how trust your own instincts about the accountability of

instincts about the accountability of this group to hold themselves

this group to hold themselves accountable for their behavior. Like

accountable for their behavior. Like vulnerability

vulnerability is not more necessary for any of us than

is not more necessary for any of us than anybody else, but certainly more

anybody else, but certainly more difficult for other for for some people

difficult for other for for some people for sure.

for sure. And I think

And I think what's hard about that, what's so

what's hard about that, what's so painful, probably the most painful part

painful, probably the most painful part of my career

of my career is that

is that regardless of why the armor is on,

regardless of why the armor is on, without vulnerability you cannot access

without vulnerability you cannot access the experiences that are the most

the experiences that are the most meaningful in life.

meaningful in life. Love.

Love. To love someone is to be vulnerable from

To love someone is to be vulnerable from the time you wake up to the time you go

the time you wake up to the time you go to bed. You know that, you're in a

to bed. You know that, you're in a relationship. To love is to be

relationship. To love is to be vulnerable, right?

vulnerable, right? >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat] >> And have you ever buried someone you

>> And have you ever buried someone you loved?

loved? Like I lost my mom 2 years ago. Like

Like I lost my mom 2 years ago. Like my kids it's like having your heart live

my kids it's like having your heart live outside of your body. Like to love is to

outside of your body. Like to love is to be vulnerable cuz it's to risk grief and

be vulnerable cuz it's to risk grief and losing.

losing. Belonging is vulnerable. The most The

Belonging is vulnerable. The most The most vulnerable human emotion?

most vulnerable human emotion? Joy.

Joy. Joy is so vulnerable

Joy is so vulnerable that when some of us get close to it, we

that when some of us get close to it, we dress rehearse tragedy

dress rehearse tragedy to prepare for disappointment.

to prepare for disappointment. Like it's so vulnerable that we don't

Like it's so vulnerable that we don't even let ourselves feel joy because

even let ourselves feel joy because we're so afraid someone's going to rip

we're so afraid someone's going to rip it away and we're going to get sucker

it away and we're going to get sucker punched by disappointment.

punched by disappointment. Yes or no? Like people choose to live

Yes or no? Like people choose to live disappointed

disappointed rather than to feel disappoint risk

rather than to feel disappoint risk feeling disappointed and get excited

feeling disappointed and get excited about something.

about something. You know, it's like the first time my

You know, it's like the first time my kids shared with me when they were

kids shared with me when they were young,

young, certainly not the way I was raised, but

certainly not the way I was raised, but you know, I I really really want to make

you know, I I really really want to make this team, Mom.

this team, Mom. And I said

And I said I want to pause you for a second

I want to pause you for a second and tell you how brave it is

and tell you how brave it is to talk openly about something you want

to talk openly about something you want so much when you don't have control over

so much when you don't have control over whether you get it or not.

whether you get it or not. I want I want it for you because you

I want I want it for you because you want it, but regardless of what happens,

want it, but regardless of what happens, I admire your courage for wanting

I admire your courage for wanting something and sharing out loud that you

something and sharing out loud that you want it.

want it. Because if you don't get it, I'll know

Because if you don't get it, I'll know that it was a crushing blow.

that it was a crushing blow. But that's so great because I'll be here

But that's so great because I'll be here for you when that happens either way.

for you when that happens either way. So we And I And I'm really I'm a really

So we And I And I'm really I'm a really I'm I we call it foreboding joy.

I'm I we call it foreboding joy. That joy is so good

That joy is so good we're just waiting for the other shoe to

we're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. And people who have trauma

drop. And people who have trauma histories are really like that. Like for

histories are really like that. Like for me

me cuz of the way I was raised,

cuz of the way I was raised, when something good happens, I'm like oh

when something good happens, I'm like oh god, now what's going to happen?

god, now what's going to happen? Statistically, bad shit's going to roll

Statistically, bad shit's going to roll around any second now.

around any second now. And it's interesting cuz the group of

And it's interesting cuz the group of people that we researched, the only

people that we researched, the only group of people

group of people that could take that You know, there's a

that could take that You know, there's a bodily quiver, right? Of vulnerability.

bodily quiver, right? Of vulnerability. Do you have you felt it?

Do you have you felt it? >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. The only people that can really lean

The only people that can really lean into joy consistently are people who use

into joy consistently are people who use that vulnerability quiver

that vulnerability quiver as a reminder to be grateful.

as a reminder to be grateful. To be able to practice gratitude in that

To be able to practice gratitude in that second. So gratitude is a huge

second. So gratitude is a huge enabler of joy. Is that automatic or can

enabler of joy. Is that automatic or can one train that?

one train that? >> No, it's a training. Oh [ __ ] no I had

>> No, it's a training. Oh [ __ ] no I had to

to I mean

I mean standing at my front door

standing at my front door watching

watching my 16-year-old daughter walk down the

my 16-year-old daughter walk down the sidewalk with her boyfriend in high

sidewalk with her boyfriend in high school and get in his truck for for

school and get in his truck for for prom, right?

prom, right? And I'm standing there and I'm like

And I'm standing there and I'm like oh god.

oh god. And you know, what am I worried about?

And you know, what am I worried about? You know, prom night.

You know, prom night. Like car wreck, right?

Like car wreck, right? Of course like I when I tell the story

Of course like I when I tell the story the military's always like pregnancy.

the military's always like pregnancy. I'm like no no no no no, car wreck. And

I'm like no no no no no, car wreck. And so I just remember staying there and she

so I just remember staying there and she gets in and and I'm staying next to

gets in and and I'm staying next to Steve and Charlie

Steve and Charlie my my son's, you know, at this time he's

my my son's, you know, at this time he's 10. And I'm like I'm so grateful. I'm so

10. And I'm like I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for this moment.

grateful. I'm grateful for this moment. I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm

I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm grateful that they did the corsage and

grateful that they did the corsage and the boutonniere over here. I'm grateful

the boutonniere over here. I'm grateful that I got to help pick out the dress.

that I got to help pick out the dress. I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes

I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom?

looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom? Um and Steve goes, she's she's

Um and Steve goes, she's she's practicing gratitude. Let her do it

practicing gratitude. Let her do it otherwise she's going to be on a crazy

otherwise she's going to be on a crazy train. It's going to be all hell and you

train. It's going to be all hell and you know, like cuz part of me wants to say

know, like cuz part of me wants to say oh god.

oh god. Oh god.

Oh god. Like so beautiful and so joyful.

Like so beautiful and so joyful. And get in your truck and follow them

And get in your truck and follow them right now. If he's speeding, I want to

right now. If he's speeding, I want to know about it. If he's not stopping

know about it. If he's not stopping fully to stop sign, follow them until

fully to stop sign, follow them until this date is over. You know, that's

this date is over. You know, that's that's what I want to do.

that's what I want to do. Cuz I'm afraid.

Cuz I'm afraid. Cuz that that joy of that moment was

Cuz that that joy of that moment was just too much for me.

Too vulnerable. It appears you've overcome

overcome various traits of old

various traits of old Rene Brown.

Rene Brown. No, I'm overcoming. Overcoming? No, I'm

No, I'm overcoming. Overcoming? No, I'm not over I I not overcome. Have you

not over I I not overcome. Have you overcome anything?

overcome anything? Yes, a belief that I will overcome

Yes, a belief that I will overcome anything. I've overcome the belief that

anything. I've overcome the belief that I have overcome the belief that

I will ever arrive. I am grateful for the skills that I have

I am grateful for the skills that I have that are new skills that keep me more

that are new skills that keep me more aligned with the person, the mom, the

aligned with the person, the mom, the partner, the leader that I want to be.

partner, the leader that I want to be. But I

But I I

I am

am mindful of all the I try to stay very

mindful of all the I try to stay very mindful that I am scary when I'm scared.

mindful that I am scary when I'm scared. That I catastrophize very very easily

That I catastrophize very very easily and that's painful for everybody around

and that's painful for everybody around me.

me. And I don't need to be liked. I just

And I don't need to be liked. I just need to be myself. Like But those are

need to be myself. Like But those are things

things cuz I will I will sit down like 2 days

cuz I will I will sit down like 2 days ago and like, "Oh my god, it'd be so

ago and like, "Oh my god, it'd be so freaking easy to be liked here."

freaking easy to be liked here." I was like, "This will be This would be

I was like, "This will be This would be a piece of cake." And I'm like, "Shit, I

a piece of cake." And I'm like, "Shit, I don't do that anymore. Bummer."

don't do that anymore. Bummer." 2 days ago? Yeah. Out of what?

2 days ago? Yeah. Out of what? Just with a group of people that I knew

Just with a group of people that I knew what it would take to be liked.

what it would take to be liked. And you made the choice to

And you made the choice to >> Just to be myself.

>> Just to be myself. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Why?

Why? Because now the person I'm going to

Because now the person I'm going to betray

betray last is me.

Yeah, I hope I see you again, but not that important.

not that important. Some people might find that somewhat

Some people might find that somewhat demoralizing to know that they they too

demoralizing to know that they they too might never cure

might never cure parts of themselves that they're

parts of themselves that they're desperate to change. I think people, you

desperate to change. I think people, you know, they often come to podcasts like

know, they often come to podcasts like this or read books like yours looking

this or read books like yours looking for solutions fixes

for solutions fixes to not liking myself, to the way that I

to not liking myself, to the way that I react to my emotions. They want to fix

react to my emotions. They want to fix it.

it. Cuz if they can fix it, then they can be

Cuz if they can fix it, then they can be happy. I don't think that's in the

happy. I don't think that's in the consideration set.

consideration set. For a very

For a very beautiful reason.

beautiful reason. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat] >> That if we could fix it

>> That if we could fix it and never have to wrestle with it again

and never have to wrestle with it again we would be so short on grace

we would be so short on grace for other people.

for other people. That we would be

That we would be tyrants.

So, you think it it creates a form of empathy for others? Yeah. I mean, like

empathy for others? Yeah. I mean, like I'm not going to I have like really

I'm not going to I have like really serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary

serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary person. But when I see someone behaving

person. But when I see someone behaving a certain way, I was like, "Uh, my

a certain way, I was like, "Uh, my [ __ ] sees

[ __ ] sees your inner [ __ ] right here. I get I

your inner [ __ ] right here. I get I get it I get what you're doing. I'm not

get it I get what you're doing. I'm not going to tolerate it. I'm going to set a

going to tolerate it. I'm going to set a boundary around it.

boundary around it. But I'm not really judging you for it.

But I'm not really judging you for it. It's just that behavior's not okay right

It's just that behavior's not okay right here." But you like yourself now?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I do.

I do. I I

I do. I can I can

I can I can I can I think I can say that pretty

I can I think I can say that pretty I like what I'm becoming.

I like what I'm becoming. And for anyone that doesn't like

And for anyone that doesn't like themselves, what what work has had to go

themselves, what what work has had to go into getting to the point where you like

into getting to the point where you like what you you're becoming?

maybe one of the biggest findings of my research over the last 25 years is it's

research over the last 25 years is it's not

not fear that gets in the way of us being

fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work.

brave with our lives and our work. It's armor.

It's armor. Everybody's afraid.

Everybody's afraid. It's okay to be afraid.

It's okay to be afraid. What's dangerous is the armor that we

What's dangerous is the armor that we reach for to self-protect when we're

reach for to self-protect when we're afraid.

afraid. And how that armor moves us

And how that armor moves us away from

away from love, connection

love, connection and our values. And so,

and our values. And so, I think the hardest work is

I think the hardest work is for me

for me constantly being aware of what is my

constantly being aware of what is my armor. What am I What am I grabbing for

armor. What am I What am I grabbing for when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for

when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for when I want to protect my sense of

when I want to protect my sense of self-worth, my ego? Like and and how

self-worth, my ego? Like and and how heavy that [ __ ] is.

heavy that [ __ ] is. You know, at some point I had to wear

You know, at some point I had to wear it.

it. Because that was survival for me growing

Because that was survival for me growing up.

up. But this is the big This is the big

developmental milestone of middle age, which you are squarely in

of middle age, which you are squarely in train.

train. Which is kind of when the universe grabs

Which is kind of when the universe grabs you by the shoulders and pulls you

you by the shoulders and pulls you really close

really close and says

and says "I'm not [ __ ] around anymore.

"I'm not [ __ ] around anymore. I gave you gifts.

I gave you gifts. Choosing not to grow into them is not

Choosing not to grow into them is not benign.

There's a consequence for that. And your armor is getting in the way.

armor is getting in the way. You're grown-ass person now.

You're grown-ass person now. You have different choices.

You have different choices. Let go of what doesn't serve."

And that is the big milestone, I think, that we have to wrestle with in midlife.

that we have to wrestle with in midlife. What no longer serves that's preventing

What no longer serves that's preventing us from growing into who we want to be.

us from growing into who we want to be. And is that where vulnerability comes

And is that where vulnerability comes into the picture? Oh, for sure. Cuz all

into the picture? Oh, for sure. Cuz all the armor

the armor all the armor

all the armor is about vulnerability.

is about vulnerability. It requires a huge amount of um I was

It requires a huge amount of um I was going to say self-awareness.

going to say self-awareness. Yes.

Yes. >> That some people just don't could

>> That some people just don't could probably never accomplish. I mean

I mean most of us can understand

most of us can understand if you back me into an emotional corner

if you back me into an emotional corner what are you going to get?

what are you going to get? Like as a leader, I know my armor,

Like as a leader, I know my armor, perfectionism, micromanagement. I get

perfectionism, micromanagement. I get super intensive. I get recklessly

super intensive. I get recklessly decisive.

decisive. I know my armor.

I know my armor. And my team knows my armor.

I think my armor in my personal life, especially

my armor in my personal life, especially when it comes to my kids, when I get

when it comes to my kids, when I get when I feel vulnerable

when I feel vulnerable is control, control, control.

is control, control, control. Take over all the chess pieces.

Take over all the chess pieces. But that's

But that's not a good idea.

not a good idea. It's not possible. Hm. It's just It's

It's not possible. Hm. It's just It's just pretend. That's called anxiety.

just pretend. That's called anxiety. Like pretending that you can control the

Like pretending that you can control the chessboard of other people's lives, let

chessboard of other people's lives, let alone your own, much less other people's

alone your own, much less other people's lives. But I think I do it out of

Is fear the opposite of courage? Or is it?

courage? Or is it? No, I think the opposite of courage is

No, I think the opposite of courage is armor.

armor. Armor, okay. I think the opposite of

Armor, okay. I think the opposite of courage is self-protection.

courage is self-protection. To be courageous in this context,

To be courageous in this context, whether it's as a leader or in another

whether it's as a leader or in another environment, you talk about these four

environment, you talk about these four steps to courage. You talk about it in

steps to courage. You talk about it in Strong Ground.

Strong Ground. Yeah.

Yeah. This was research that emerged like 15

This was research that emerged like 15 years ago, and I was really really

years ago, and I was really really nervous cuz I'm a grounded theory

nervous cuz I'm a grounded theory researcher. I'm a qualitative

researcher. I'm a qualitative researcher. So, a grounded theory is

researcher. So, a grounded theory is only as good as its ability to work new

only as good as its ability to work new data. So, you develop a hypothesis or a

data. So, you develop a hypothesis or a theory based on data. And then as you

theory based on data. And then as you collect more data, does the hypothesis

collect more data, does the hypothesis hold? And, you know, this we collected

hold? And, you know, this we collected that data pre-pandemic.

that data pre-pandemic. You know,

You know, pre pre a lot of things. And so, I was

pre pre a lot of things. And so, I was really worried about the four skill sets

really worried about the four skill sets of courage, which are

of courage, which are identifying and understanding your core

identifying and understanding your core values.

values. I would love to do this exercise with

I would love to do this exercise with you sometime.

you sometime. Um two,

Um two, understanding what gets in the way of

understanding what gets in the way of you wrestling with vulnerability, kind

you wrestling with vulnerability, kind of owning it and moving through it

of owning it and moving through it constructively.

constructively. Three, how to build trust and how to

Three, how to build trust and how to become super important trustworthy to

become super important trustworthy to yourself. Self-trust.

yourself. Self-trust. Because one of the first casualties of

Because one of the first casualties of failure or disappointment or setback is

failure or disappointment or setback is we lose

we lose our our ability to trust ourselves.

our our ability to trust ourselves. Our ability to make good decisions. Our

Our ability to make good decisions. Our ability to take care of ourselves. And

ability to take care of ourselves. And the last one, which is my favorite

the last one, which is my favorite because [snorts]

because [snorts] it can really I've seen it really change

it can really I've seen it really change an organization is

an organization is how to get back up after failure and

how to get back up after failure and disappointment. How to reset. How to be

disappointment. How to reset. How to be how to manage your own bounce when hard

how to manage your own bounce when hard [ __ ] happens.

[ __ ] happens. So, those are the four skill sets of

So, those are the four skill sets of courage. Again,

courage. Again, evidence-based

evidence-based observable, measurable, and teachable.

observable, measurable, and teachable. We've taken 165,000

We've taken 165,000 people through this work across 45

people through this work across 45 countries.

countries. Collected data on all of it. It's so

Collected data on all of it. It's so exciting. And it withstood all of the

exciting. And it withstood all of the complex changes over the last 5 years,

complex changes over the last 5 years, including AI.

including AI. Organizational because this is where we

Organizational because this is where we do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist

do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist or clinician. I don't work with like

or clinician. I don't work with like families or individuals. I mean, I have

families or individuals. I mean, I have a therapist, but I'm not one.

a therapist, but I'm not one. Um so, I think

you can develop skirt courage skills. The the third point is braving trust.

The the third point is braving trust. Yeah. And I've heard about your marble

Yeah. And I've heard about your marble jar theory. So, I've got a jar of

jar theory. So, I've got a jar of marbles.

marbles. >> that. Um could you explain to me what

>> that. Um could you explain to me what your marble jar You look at how excited

your marble jar You look at how excited you are. I know.

you are. I know. Um so, this comes You know, where where

Um so, this comes You know, where where is where where do I get my information?

is where where do I get my information? Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She

Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She comes home from school. Mhm. The front

comes home from school. Mhm. The front [clears throat] door closes. She slides

[clears throat] door closes. She slides down the door into a heap sobbing.

down the door into a heap sobbing. I'm like, "God, Ellen, are you okay? Are

I'm like, "God, Ellen, are you okay? Are you hurt? What's going on?" She says

you hurt? What's going on?" She says that

that something hard happened.

something hard happened. She shared it like very confidentially

She shared it like very confidentially with one or two of her friends during

with one or two of her friends during recess.

recess. When she got back to the classroom

When she got back to the classroom they had told everybody in her class,

they had told everybody in her class, all 30 kids.

all 30 kids. Everybody was laughing and pointing and

Everybody was laughing and pointing and making fun of her.

making fun of her. And she said, "I will never trust anyone

And she said, "I will never trust anyone again."

again." And my response immediately to my in my

And my response immediately to my in my mind was, "Damn straight. Not [ __ ]

mind was, "Damn straight. Not [ __ ] person. You trust your mama, and that's

person. You trust your mama, and that's it." Like that was my response. But

it." Like that was my response. But again,

again, that's not the right thing to do, right?

that's not the right thing to do, right? You want a kid who can develop trust

You want a kid who can develop trust with others. So, I said, "Trust is

with others. So, I said, "Trust is really hard." She said, "I don't

really hard." She said, "I don't understand it."

understand it." And her teacher at the time, Mrs.

And her teacher at the time, Mrs. Bockum, had a mar- a marble jar.

Bockum, had a mar- a marble jar. And when the team when the when the

And when the team when the when the class would collectively make good

class would collectively make good decisions, she would put marbles in this

decisions, she would put marbles in this empty jar. And when it got full, they'd

empty jar. And when it got full, they'd have an extra recess and party. Mhm.

have an extra recess and party. Mhm. And [clears throat] so, immediately what

And [clears throat] so, immediately what came to me, cuz I'm describing trust,

came to me, cuz I'm describing trust, which is a hard concept to a fourth

which is a hard concept to a fourth grader. I said, "Trust is the marble

grader. I said, "Trust is the marble jar."

jar." She's like, "What do you mean?" And I

She's like, "What do you mean?" And I said,

said, "Every time you share somebody something

"Every time you share somebody something with someone that's confidential and

with someone that's confidential and they don't share it, they get a marble.

they don't share it, they get a marble. Every time you build trust,

Every time you build trust, when you want to share something really

when you want to share something really private and personal, you look for a

private and personal, you look for a friend whose jar is full of marbles."

friend whose jar is full of marbles." "Do you have any marble jar friends?"

"Do you have any marble jar friends?" She's like, "Not the ones I shared with

She's like, "Not the ones I shared with today." And I said, "Who are your marble

today." And I said, "Who are your marble jar friends?" And she said, "Hannah and

jar friends?" And she said, "Hannah and Lorna." And I said, "Tell me something

Lorna." And I said, "Tell me something they do to earn marbles." "Oh, well,

they do to earn marbles." "Oh, well, like if I get to my tray late at lunch

like if I get to my tray late at lunch and there's no place to sit, Lorna will

and there's no place to sit, Lorna will scoot over and give me half her seat and

scoot over and give me half her seat and then we just share one seat and I can

then we just share one seat and I can sit at the table. And then the other day

sit at the table. And then the other day when I had strep throat, Hannah was

when I had strep throat, Hannah was worried about me. So remember her mom

worried about me. So remember her mom called and said, 'Hannah's worried about

called and said, 'Hannah's worried about Ellen, why wasn't she at school?' But

Ellen, why wasn't she at school?' But then the biggest thing that Hannah did

then the biggest thing that Hannah did was the other day,

was the other day, Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her

Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her her husband, came to my soccer game and

her husband, came to my soccer game and Hannah looked over and goes, 'Oh my god,

Hannah looked over and goes, 'Oh my god, your Oma and Opa are here.' And I said,

your Oma and Opa are here.' And I said, 'Why was that a big deal?' And she goes,

'Why was that a big deal?' And she goes, 'Because everybody's divorced and

'Because everybody's divorced and remarried and I've got eight

remarried and I've got eight Yeah, four sets of people and she

Yeah, four sets of people and she remembered their names.'

remembered their names.' And what was shocking to me is that

And what was shocking to me is that Ellen was conveying

Ellen was conveying that these marbles

that these marbles were being earned on these very small

were being earned on these very small She knew my grandparents' name. She gave

She knew my grandparents' name. She gave me a seat to sit at. She checked on me

me a seat to sit at. She checked on me when I was missing school.

when I was missing school. And so

And so it made me start thinking about the

it made me start thinking about the literature on trust. So I immediately go

literature on trust. So I immediately go to the Gottmans. Have you had the

to the Gottmans. Have you had the Gottmans on here?

Gottmans on here? >> Oh, twice, yeah. Yeah, I mean just like

>> Oh, twice, yeah. Yeah, I mean just like yeah. So I go to the Gottmans' research

yeah. So I go to the Gottmans' research on trust and I read right off the bat

on trust and I read right off the bat where Gottmans say, "Trust is earned in

where Gottmans say, "Trust is earned in small moments every day." He tells a

small moments every day." He tells a story. It's my favorite story that he

story. It's my favorite story that he tells and I've had them on my podcast

tells and I've had them on my podcast and I've

and I've done blurbs for their books and written

done blurbs for their books and written forwards. They're just great. So he

forwards. They're just great. So he tells a story about how he's also a

tells a story about how he's also a mystery lover like me. He's on the

mystery lover like me. He's on the second to last page of his mystery.

second to last page of his mystery. He's like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Who

He's like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Who did it?" And he jumps up to go brush his

did it?" And he jumps up to go brush his teeth and he gets gets walks to the

teeth and he gets gets walks to the bathroom and he sees his wife crying and

bathroom and he sees his wife crying and brushing her hair. He's like, "Shit.

brushing her hair. He's like, "Shit. Don't look. Everything's good. Just go

Don't look. Everything's good. Just go to the bathroom and get back in your get

to the bathroom and get back in your get get back to your book." And he's like,

get back to your book." And he's like, "That's a sliding door moment.

"That's a sliding door moment. I can I have a choice in that moment

I can I have a choice in that moment to build trust and stop and say, 'What's

to build trust and stop and say, 'What's going on?'

going on?' or to build betrayal and pretend like I

or to build betrayal and pretend like I don't see her hurting."

don't see her hurting." "So I stop. I take the brush out of her

"So I stop. I take the brush out of her hand.

hand. I start brushing her hair and say,

I start brushing her hair and say, 'What's going on?'"

'What's going on?'" That's a sliding door moment that we

That's a sliding door moment that we have all the time, right? And so to me,

have all the time, right? And so to me, trust is built slowly over time, a

trust is built slowly over time, a marble at a time.

marble at a time. And that's how That's how we teach trust

And that's how That's how we teach trust to the most senior leaders in Fortune

to the most senior leaders in Fortune 100 companies.

100 companies. The trust is the marble jar. It's

The trust is the marble jar. It's earned.

earned. Leaders believe

Leaders believe and you're a leader, so you know you

and you're a leader, so you know you know the temptation.

know the temptation. Leaders believe that in the middle of a

Leaders believe that in the middle of a crisis,

crisis, you know,

you know, you put the numbers together and there's

you put the numbers together and there's a fever dream in the United States and

a fever dream in the United States and there's new tariffs and you wake up and

there's new tariffs and you wake up and you know, you're you're you've got a

you know, you're you're you've got a revenue line that's in crisis and then

revenue line that's in crisis and then you can just look at your people and

you can just look at your people and say,

say, "Hello everyone." This is like back to

"Hello everyone." This is like back to the the uh executive presence. "Trust

the the uh executive presence. "Trust me. Here's what we're going to do." And

me. Here's what we're going to do." And it means nothing to people. What matters

it means nothing to people. What matters is a leader that walks past you in the

is a leader that walks past you in the morning and says, "Hey, good to see

morning and says, "Hey, good to see Steven. How's your mom's chemo going?"

Marbles. Marbles. Then when the crisis happens,

Marbles. Then when the crisis happens, you don't need to say, "Trust me."

you don't need to say, "Trust me." You just need to say what's on your

You just need to say what's on your mind. They trust you.

mind. They trust you. The other thing I think uh

The other thing I think uh is often plagued my mind is as a leader,

is often plagued my mind is as a leader, sometimes you say things and those

sometimes you say things and those things can't happen for whatever reason,

things can't happen for whatever reason, things change.

things change. >> Right. And um

And I think leaders sometimes think that trust is always being correct, always

trust is always being correct, always predicting everything correctly, always

predicting everything correctly, always being right.

being right. No.

No. Trust is

Trust is Man, I think we had nailed this.

Man, I think we had nailed this. I thought

I thought this was how this was going to happen.

this was how this was going to happen. We were wrong. You've been

We were wrong. You've been [clears throat] working your asses off

[clears throat] working your asses off for 6 months on this

for 6 months on this and I've got to deprioritize it today

and I've got to deprioritize it today standing right here in front of you.

standing right here in front of you. But I'm not going to [ __ ] you.

But I'm not going to [ __ ] you. You've been working your ass off on a

You've been working your ass off on a priority

priority that literally does not exist today.

that literally does not exist today. Hm.

Hm. I want to stop and say thank you.

I want to stop and say thank you. I saw what you were doing.

I saw what you were doing. I want to be completely transparent

I want to be completely transparent about why the priority has shifted.

about why the priority has shifted. And then I'm going to ask you for the

And then I'm going to ask you for the same level of work on the new priority.

Yes or no? Yeah, and then the blame and

Yeah, and then the blame and responsibility often rear their heads.

responsibility often rear their heads. That's right.

That's right. >> For for better or for worse.

>> For for better or for worse. >> Go like this. My eyelash or something. I

>> Go like this. My eyelash or something. I know. One marble. There you go. Oh.

know. One marble. There you go. Oh. Yeah, [laughter] is that a marble? Yeah,

Yeah, [laughter] is that a marble? Yeah, that is. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you didn't have

that is. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you didn't have to say that, you know.

to say that, you know. I think that sometimes people say you've

I think that sometimes people say you've got some [ __ ] on your shirt. I'm like,

got some [ __ ] on your shirt. I'm like, that's thank you so much because it

that's thank you so much because it would have been much

would have been much easier for you not to point out the

easier for you not to point out the boogie on my face or whatever, you know

boogie on my face or whatever, you know what I mean? I don't trust somebody that

what I mean? I don't trust somebody that doesn't do that. So I guess it is

doesn't do that. So I guess it is [clears throat] a marble.

[clears throat] a marble. Hm.

Hm. Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago

Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago on the podcast, they said, "I trust

on the podcast, they said, "I trust people who say things in public that is

people who say things in public that is against their near-term interests." And

against their near-term interests." And I thought, "Hm." Oh.

I thought, "Hm." Oh. Oh, I That's [laughter] good.

Oh, I That's [laughter] good. That's That's like a That's like a

That's That's like a That's like a That's a

Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good metaphor though, right? Mhm. Mhm. The trust in

though, right? Mhm. Mhm. The trust in the [clears throat] marble jar has been

the [clears throat] marble jar has been very helpful for us. Mhm. And let me

very helpful for us. Mhm. And let me tell you, there are behaviors

tell you, there are behaviors This is plastic.

This is plastic. There are behaviors in relationships

There are behaviors in relationships where you take this whole thing and just

where you take this whole thing and just slam it on the ground. Cheating.

slam it on the ground. Cheating. I think that's an obvious one.

There's one that's more has a more ragged edge of grief and distress than

ragged edge of grief and distress than even cheating,

even cheating, which is just slowly disengaging.

Emotionally disengaging. >> Yeah. Mhm.

Yeah, gosh. That's a ragged That's a ragged-edged break on that marble jar

ragged-edged break on that marble jar and it just happens over time and every

and it just happens over time and every Yeah, the the other people think that

Yeah, the the other people think that they're nuts and it makes them question

they're nuts and it makes them question their own judgment.

their own judgment. Working in the sales team at a startup

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now. I did something at 24 years old that has

I did something at 24 years old that has had a profound impact on my life. I set

had a profound impact on my life. I set myself the challenge of posting every

myself the challenge of posting every single day on my social media channels.

single day on my social media channels. And at the time, I was doing it to grow

And at the time, I was doing it to grow my following, but it had this profound

my following, but it had this profound impact on my life and two remarkable

impact on my life and two remarkable things happened when I did that. I

things happened when I did that. I managed to learn faster because every

managed to learn faster because every single day I'm capturing what is

single day I'm capturing what is happening to me and trying to distill it

happening to me and trying to distill it down into something that I can share

down into something that I can share with the world. But more remarkably, it

with the world. But more remarkably, it led me to building a following of many

led me to building a following of many millions of people and that's the basis

millions of people and that's the basis that I used to launch the Diary of a

that I used to launch the Diary of a CEO. And that's why I want to tell you

CEO. And that's why I want to tell you about our sponsor today, Adobe Express.

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/ Steven. You have been in a relationship much

You have been in a relationship much longer than me, but we share a lot of

longer than me, but we share a lot of similarities in many ways. I was

similarities in many ways. I was wondering if um

wondering if um if you were to give me

if you were to give me any relationship advice that might hold

any relationship advice that might hold my [ __ ] together Mhm. over the next 30

my [ __ ] together Mhm. over the next 30 years.

years. I mean, you could give me so much, I

I mean, you could give me so much, I know, cuz I've seen I've seen so much of

know, cuz I've seen I've seen so much of your incredible I've actually stolen so

your incredible I've actually stolen so much advice. One of the things I stole

much advice. One of the things I stole recently, which me and my girlfriend

recently, which me and my girlfriend talked about, was

talked about, was sometimes I'd come home and I'm on like

sometimes I'd come home and I'm on like 10% and I heard you say this.

10% and I heard you say this. >> Oh, yeah. And I just I don't communicate

>> Oh, yeah. And I just I don't communicate to my girlfriend that I'm on I've got

to my girlfriend that I'm on I've got like 10% left.

like 10% left. >> Yeah. And then she you know, she might

>> Yeah. And then she you know, she might want to try and work through some [ __ ]

want to try and work through some [ __ ] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to go bad. Yeah, it's going

It's going to go bad. Yeah, it's going to go bad. Yeah, let's not do this at

to go bad. Yeah, let's not do this at 1:00 a.m. No.

1:00 a.m. No. >> [clears throat]

>> [clears throat] >> And I saw you talk about how you

>> And I saw you talk about how you communicate, you vocalize what you have

communicate, you vocalize what you have left in the tank to give context to the

left in the tank to give context to the person. I guess it's to create some

person. I guess it's to create some empathy for both of you, but I've stolen

empathy for both of you, but I've stolen that. But is there anything else that um

that. But is there anything else that um you think might help me over the next 30

you think might help me over the next 30 years to have a good relationship with

years to have a good relationship with my girlfriend with all the risks that

my girlfriend with all the risks that you see? I'll just start by saying I

you see? I'll just start by saying I think therapy,

think therapy, couples work, is like so incredibly

couples work, is like so incredibly powerful and helpful. I think the

powerful and helpful. I think the Gottmans' work

Gottmans' work is really like we read the Gottmans'

is really like we read the Gottmans' work together sometimes. I think I think

work together sometimes. I think I think that's helpful. I'm surprised you were

that's helpful. I'm surprised you were willing

willing as someone that struggles with

as someone that struggles with vulnerability. Oh, yeah. No, for sure.

vulnerability. Oh, yeah. No, for sure. Well, you you weren't No, I was willing.

Well, you you weren't No, I was willing. Oh, really? Okay.

Oh, really? Okay. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I struggle with

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I struggle with vulnerability, but I really respect

vulnerability, but I really respect humility in people so much that even if

humility in people so much that even if I'm not feeling humility, I will fake

I'm not feeling humility, I will fake humility and be like, I need help. And

humility and be like, I need help. And then I'll say, [ __ ] this is real. This

then I'll say, [ __ ] this is real. This is hard. This is They say, got my

is hard. This is They say, got my number? Like, how

number? Like, how >> [laughter]

>> [laughter] >> I damn. Hey, they just call the thing a

>> I damn. Hey, they just call the thing a thing. They hurt my feelers. Um but I I

thing. They hurt my feelers. Um but I I guess the biggest thing is that not

guess the biggest thing is that not neither Stephen I nor I had

neither Stephen I nor I had any modeling of what a healthy

any modeling of what a healthy relationship looked like

relationship looked like at all.

And I think one commitment we made is to

I think one commitment we made is to just

just keep showing up. I think these are the

keep showing up. I think these are the three commitments. Keep showing up.

three commitments. Keep showing up. Don't buy into the [ __ ] that it's

Don't buy into the [ __ ] that it's supposed to be easy. It'll be the

supposed to be easy. It'll be the hardest thing you'll ever do. And ask

hardest thing you'll ever do. And ask for help.

for help. And that's not There's no

And that's not There's no I wish I could give you like a Here's

I wish I could give you like a Here's the secret to it. But the secret to us

the secret to it. But the secret to us is we keep showing up.

is we keep showing up. We know it's not supposed to be easy.

We know it's not supposed to be easy. And we get help.

And we get help. And the help being

And the help being you turn to him and ask for help or

you turn to him and ask for help or external

external >> Well, we Well, we get external help, but

>> Well, we Well, we get external help, but we read. We try new things.

we read. We try new things. Um

Um we try new tools.

we try new tools. We just

We just we don't ever want to be done learning

we don't ever want to be done learning and trying to be better for ourselves

and trying to be better for ourselves and for each other.

And that's a lot. I mean, 38 years together

together is

not just like the slow roll movie of a life and a family,

of a life and a family, but we've

but we've buried parents.

buried parents. You know, we've gone through illnesses.

You know, we've gone through illnesses. We've

We've raised, you know, kids. We've

raised, you know, kids. We've We've gone through different seasons in

We've gone through different seasons in our own lives where we were not synced

our own lives where we were not synced at all.

at all. It's really, really hard.

It's really, really hard. But it's I'm more proud of it than

But it's I'm more proud of it than anything I've ever done.

anything I've ever done. Cuz my setup for success was zero.

Cuz my setup for success was zero. You've buried parents.

You've buried parents. Yeah. Christmas day?

Yeah. Christmas day? My mom died on Christmas day after my

My mom died on Christmas day after my sisters and I were there at her primary

sisters and I were there at her primary caregiver for 4 years with dementia. 4

caregiver for 4 years with dementia. 4 years.

I wouldn't wish that [ __ ] on the people I hate the most.

I hate the most. I know I try not to hate people, but I

I know I try not to hate people, but I God gives me grace for it on occasion.

God gives me grace for it on occasion. But um

But um I would not wish that on anybody.

You know, there's the reality of it, you know, she gets there, there's an

know, she gets there, there's an accident. You're showering your mom.

accident. You're showering your mom. You're bathing your mom. Mhm. You know,

You're bathing your mom. Mhm. You know, and

and she knows just enough

she knows just enough to be humiliated by it.

to be humiliated by it. Mhm.

Mhm. But this is life. Like this is This is

But this is life. Like this is This is caregiving.

caregiving. You know?

You know? And it's a

And it's a tremendous emotional, physical, mental

tremendous emotional, physical, mental weight that falls primarily on women who

weight that falls primarily on women who are also in the workforce.

are also in the workforce. You know, thank God I had two sisters,

You know, thank God I had two sisters, so there's three of us.

so there's three of us. Um but

Um but and many people have very Many people

and many people have very Many people have zero. It's like you and your PhD

have zero. It's like you and your PhD research PhD researcher. I have

research PhD researcher. I have resources.

resources. A lot of resources.

A lot of resources. And I think it almost killed me. You

And I think it almost killed me. You know, and so

know, and so It almost killed you. I mean, yeah, it

It almost killed you. I mean, yeah, it it

to lose someone that you love like I love my mom in bits and pieces

love my mom in bits and pieces in chips and bones in, you know, like

in chips and bones in, you know, like that is

that is you know, and then

you know, and then there was a day when she just got

there was a day when she just got incredibly, incredibly cruel. Like my

incredibly, incredibly cruel. Like my mom was the fulcrum.

mom was the fulcrum. Our family changed on her back. Like she

Our family changed on her back. Like she was the first person to go to therapy.

was the first person to go to therapy. She left my dad.

She left my dad. She got us into therapy. She worked

She got us into therapy. She worked three jobs. She She changed everything.

three jobs. She She changed everything. She talked about the long history of

She talked about the long history of addiction in our family, you know, on

addiction in our family, you know, on both sides, everywhere. She changed our

both sides, everywhere. She changed our family. And so to say she was like, you

family. And so to say she was like, you know, somebody who I respected and

know, somebody who I respected and revered like was is an understatement.

revered like was is an understatement. And you know,

And you know, and we did so much healing work

and we did so much healing work around

around kind of how she showed up as a parent in

kind of how she showed up as a parent in her marriage with my dad. And so then

her marriage with my dad. And so then the one day I went to go take care of

the one day I went to go take care of her and I saw that thing that hadn't

her and I saw that thing that hadn't seen since I was 14, you know, and I'm

seen since I was 14, you know, and I'm 54.

54. You know, and it literally like I

You know, and it literally like I couldn't drive. Like it brought me

couldn't drive. Like it brought me physically to my knees.

physically to my knees. Like Like my husband had to come and get

Like Like my husband had to come and get me.

me. And I don't like

And I don't like I can't I can't talk about it without

I can't I can't talk about it without getting emotional cuz it's not like I

getting emotional cuz it's not like I blamed my mom cuz she's in the middle of

blamed my mom cuz she's in the middle of this disease, you know? But it was like

this disease, you know? But it was like I

I I didn't see her for 2 months after

I didn't see her for 2 months after that.

that. And Steve kept saying, I I said, I

And Steve kept saying, I I said, I can't. And he's like, you got to you got

can't. And he's like, you got to you got to heal from that. I mean, just imagine

to heal from that. I mean, just imagine being dropped back in

being dropped back in a worst-case scenario situation when you

a worst-case scenario situation when you were 13 or 14.

were 13 or 14. And then, you know, you're just like,

And then, you know, you're just like, I can't I can't.

I can't I can't. And, you know, my sisters were like,

And, you know, my sisters were like, I got We got We got this.

I got We got We got this. And then they'd go through a period

And then they'd go through a period where they were like, I can't right now.

where they were like, I can't right now. And then I Okay, I got it. But Steve

And then I Okay, I got it. But Steve always had it.

Steve was like, I got the diaper. I'll take him to dinner.

I'll take him to dinner. I'll meet with the doctors. Like, that's

I'll meet with the doctors. Like, that's partnership.

partnership. You know what I mean? That's

You know what I mean? That's partnership.

partnership. How did you How did you deal with the

How did you How did you deal with the grief?

grief? Well,

Well, don't send me your hate mail, [ __ ]

don't send me your hate mail, [ __ ] but you know, when she died, it was

but you know, when she died, it was nothing but relief.

nothing but relief. I've heard this I've never not heard

I've heard this I've never not heard that from someone that had a parent with

that from someone that had a parent with struggling with dementia. Absolutely.

struggling with dementia. Absolutely. >> It was complete relief. I mean, the day

>> It was complete relief. I mean, the day before she died, I think we had a really

before she died, I think we had a really important time with her.

important time with her. And

And I'm sure she is, you know,

I'm sure she is, you know, playing dominoes with Ann Richards and

playing dominoes with Ann Richards and Molly Ivins and great other female Texas

Molly Ivins and great other female Texas politicians. Um

politicians. Um Democrats. But um cuz my mom was very

Democrats. But um cuz my mom was very radically political, but

radically political, but uh

the window of grief was just years of There There was, you know,

There There was, you know, very early on there was no calling her

very early on there was no calling her to say, oh, Charlie got a really cute

to say, oh, Charlie got a really cute date. Let me show you the homecoming

date. Let me show you the homecoming pictures. Or hey, Ellen, you know, got

pictures. Or hey, Ellen, you know, got into her master's program. That that all

into her master's program. That that all just went away. Just every

just went away. Just every week.

week. And so

And so that's why, you know, the whole the

that's why, you know, the whole the whole Strong Ground book, there's a

whole Strong Ground book, there's a there's a sentence in the in the first

there's a sentence in the in the first chapter that said, I have a sticky note

chapter that said, I have a sticky note on my window on my mirror in the

on my window on my mirror in the bathroom that says, I'd rather be the

bathroom that says, I'd rather be the oldest woman in the gym than the

oldest woman in the gym than the youngest woman in assisted living. Mhm.

youngest woman in assisted living. Mhm. Because

Because I do believe in the connection around

I do believe in the connection around exercise, you know, dementia. And I I

exercise, you know, dementia. And I I took care of my grandmother with

took care of my grandmother with dementia with my mom.

And my mom and my grandmother made a lot of different lifestyle choices than I've

of different lifestyle choices than I've made, but

made, but the whole Strong Ground metaphor is that

the whole Strong Ground metaphor is that I went to go see a trainer.

I went to go see a trainer. And one day he looked at me and he said,

And one day he looked at me and he said, he called me Brown. He said, find the

he called me Brown. He said, find the ground, Brown.

ground, Brown. And I looked down and I said, okay. And

And I looked down and I said, okay. And he goes, not the floor, the ground. Take

he goes, not the floor, the ground. Take your feet,

your feet, push in to the ground. Use your mind to

push in to the ground. Use your mind to connect with your body. Push into the

connect with your body. Push into the ground and then tell your mind you're

ground and then tell your mind you're going to be using [ __ ] lats.

going to be using [ __ ] lats. And I was like, okay. So I did it

And I was like, okay. So I did it and I felt them.

and I felt them. And I started whispering every time I

And I started whispering every time I would do a weightlifting thing, strong

would do a weightlifting thing, strong ground, strong ground.

ground, strong ground. Strong ground. An unbelievable

Strong ground. An unbelievable unbelievable book. So if we we didn't

unbelievable book. So if we we didn't cover everything in this book today,

cover everything in this book today, which is a great shame, but hopefully

which is a great shame, but hopefully we'll speak again in the future. But

we'll speak again in the future. But it's the lessons of daring leadership,

it's the lessons of daring leadership, the tenacity of of paradox, which is

the tenacity of of paradox, which is something I was keen to talk about, and

something I was keen to talk about, and the wisdom of the human spirit. All of

the wisdom of the human spirit. All of your books are amazing. You said it

your books are amazing. You said it earlier on that someone called you a

earlier on that someone called you a wizard when you were younger. That's

wizard when you were younger. That's exactly what I think you are.

exactly what I think you are. I think you're a wizard.

I think you're a wizard. Why? I think you're a wizard. You have a

Why? I think you're a wizard. You have a unbelievable pattern recognition,

unbelievable pattern recognition, understanding of humans. You have so

understanding of humans. You have so many wide reference points that it

many wide reference points that it appears to be magic to a muggle like me.

appears to be magic to a muggle like me. We're out I had a time in the team and

We're out I had a time in the team and we're going to run through the door if

we're going to run through the door if I'm not careful.

I'm not careful. But we have a closing tradition on this

But we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a

podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing

question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. You actually

who they're leaving it for. You actually know this person. Is you? I know the

know this person. Is you? I know the next guest? No, you know the one that

next guest? No, you know the one that left the question for you. Oh, got it.

left the question for you. Oh, got it. But they didn't know it was for you.

But they didn't know it was for you. Dear beautiful and highly intelligent

Dear beautiful and highly intelligent next guest,

next guest, what are you optimizing for right now?

Strength and longevity. Mentally, physically, spiritually, and

Mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally.

Strong ground. The lesson The lessons of daring

The lesson The lessons of daring leadership, the tenacity of paradox, and

leadership, the tenacity of paradox, and the wisdom of the human spirit. You are

the wisdom of the human spirit. You are You are

You are I was trying to think if there was any

I was trying to think if there was any others. You are the single most

others. You are the single most requested guest um and you have been on

requested guest um and you have been on the show for for a long, long time, for

the show for for a long, long time, for three or four years. When we ask people

three or four years. When we ask people who they want me to speak to, they say

who they want me to speak to, they say your name. And they say your name

your name. And they say your name because of these the incredible work

because of these the incredible work you've done through your own podcast,

you've done through your own podcast, which I'm going to link on the screen

which I'm going to link on the screen and below right now, but also through

and below right now, but also through some of these incredible books which

some of these incredible books which have changed people's lives. If you're

have changed people's lives. If you're unfamiliar with Brené's work, um

unfamiliar with Brené's work, um I think people will understand after

I think people will understand after listening today how much they're missing

listening today how much they're missing out on. I'd highly recommend you go and

out on. I'd highly recommend you go and listen to Brené's podcasts, um but also

listen to Brené's podcasts, um but also to

to check out this book Strong Ground, which

check out this book Strong Ground, which I'm going to I'm going to link below. Um

I'm going to I'm going to link below. Um also Dare to Lead. I think all of um

also Dare to Lead. I think all of um all of the leadership team in my office

all of the leadership team in my office reference Dare to Lead so often, which

reference Dare to Lead so often, which is an incredible book about Brave Work,

is an incredible book about Brave Work, Tough Decisions, and Whole Hearts. You

Tough Decisions, and Whole Hearts. You make the most beautiful artwork. I

make the most beautiful artwork. I consider these books to be artwork again

consider these books to be artwork again because they pull on so many different

because they pull on so many different reference points to make something that

reference points to make something that feels so original. And you've helped so

feels so original. And you've helped so many people. The fact that my audience

many people. The fact that my audience have demanded I speak to you for so long

have demanded I speak to you for so long I think is testament to that. And um

I think is testament to that. And um you're a wonderful human being. And

you're a wonderful human being. And actually one of the things you've

actually one of the things you've inspired me to be

inspired me to be is myself.

is myself. Because that's exactly what I find you

Because that's exactly what I find you to be. So, thank you so much, Brené, for

to be. So, thank you so much, Brené, for your time today. It's deeply, deeply

your time today. It's deeply, deeply appreciated, more so than I could say.

appreciated, more so than I could say. And I think you're a wonderful human

And I think you're a wonderful human being. Please come back again soon. I

being. Please come back again soon. I will. I have enjoyed every minute of

will. I have enjoyed every minute of this. I would say it has not been easy

this. I would say it has not been easy cuz we went to some hard places

cuz we went to some hard places together,

together, but [clears throat] it's been

but [clears throat] it's been meaningful.

meaningful. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. >> [music]

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