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S16 E6: Super Testnet on Lightning Network vs Monero

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Summary

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This podcast episode explores the privacy features of the Bitcoin Lightning Network, comparing it to Monero and other privacy-enhancing technologies. The discussion delves into various aspects of privacy, including sender, receiver, network-level, and amount privacy, and examines the practical implications and limitations of each.

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you [Music]

[Music] [Laughter]

hello there and welcome to the Bitcoin

takeover podcast this is season 16

episode 6 we are live with super testet

and this episode is sponsored by layer 2

Labs craa no one hl. CH and. no joke I'm

going to ask you about

craa okay

great and uh the reason why we decided

to do this is that you recently put a

listing on a dark web Market you're

selling chocolates or cookies or

something in exchange for Bitcoin on the

lightning network is that

correct I'm not selling them I found I

found someone who was selling them on a

dark net market and I was like oh wow

there's a darket market that accepts lightning

lightning

and so I posted it so yeah your claim is

that lightning is more private than

Monero and that's sort of the reason why

we decided to do this yes and thank you

for having me on it's an honor to be on

your podcast and uh admire what you do

the honor is on my side sir so let's

start with this what is private about

the lightning Network you have sender

privacy you have receiver privacy you

have Network level privacy and you have

amounts privacy which one of these does

lightning have

uh four of it it has aspects of all four

I think the one it's the worst at is

amount privacy um and the ones that's

and then is really good at the other

ones can we do a further analysis

because as far as I know lightning has

pretty good sender privacy which is

exactly what Bitcoin onchain doesn't

have when you send Bitcoin onchain you

can see how many coins the sender has in their

their

utxo unless you send from coin join but

that's a bit more complicated to pull

out or pull off but in the case of

lightning you get Sender privacy which

is pretty good when you know humble brag

when I sold Bitcoin to buy my Lexus I

actually use the lightning Network on

Kraken because I was thinking that I

don't want their blockchain analysis

whatever to flag my coins if I used coin

joints in the past and the fact that I

sent from the lightning Network gave me

you know much better both privacy and

also it didn't let me deal with

blockchain analysis so that's pretty

sweet about lightning yeah one one of

the ways that it uh does that is by

encrypting a lot of the information so

when when your node picks a route to

find to to to say I wantan to I want to

pay you know Kraken uh you have to find

a path along the lightning Network that

you're gonna pay Bob and Bob's going to

pay Carol and Carol's goingon to pay

Dave and Dave's going to pay Kraken and

that route we use onion encryption

similar to the to tour uh to make it so

that uh Bob only knows that some someone

on this side is paying someone on this

side but he doesn't know who and then

Carol only knows that someone on this

side's paying someone on this side and

so forth till you get all the way to

Kraken and they just know uh Dave Dave

forwarded this payment to us but we

don't know who the actual sender was uh

so it's really good at hiding the sender

by you know by these layers of

encryption um similar to how the onion

router does it

yeah that's a very good way to compare

it with onion routing I think that's

also the source of inspiration for the

routing design in lightning on the other

hand when you do send someone an invoice

they're going to be able to see what

type of wallet you're using and a lot of

stuff including the amount that you're

requesting so it's not very private for

the person sending out an invoice

whereas in the case of Bitcoin onchain

if you send a new address that you

generate from your wallet there's going

to be

no way for the sender to know that it's

really your address or where it comes

from I think that um lightning invoices

have better privacy than Monero stealth

addresses would you like me to tell you

why oh that's a big claim go on yeah um

so in um in both Monero stealth address

and in a lightning invoice there's a Pub

Key um but this Pub Key in lightning is

only used for communication it's used

for signing messages but not for

receiving money uh and in Monero the

public key is only used to derive uh the

actual public key that you're going to

send the money to uh but the a

consequence of this is that on Monero

the sender can see exactly what address

that they sent the money to like the one

where the money ended up because they

derived that from the public key in the

Monero address or in this in the uh the

the public I think they call it public

address uh in lightning it's different

like you don't actually send money to

the public that's just used for

communication you're sending it you know

in this encrypted route and you don't

actually see the last hop you don't see

what htlc it's going into or how that

htlc gets resolved you don't see what

address is involved so uh if someone is

like subing you for information and they

want to know what address did you send

this money to you can honestly say on

Lightning I don't even know even if I

kept logs I wouldn't have that

information whereas with Monero you know

a lot of the ways that they track this

is they go to like morph token or um or

a fixed float and they're like what what

is the actual address that you sent the

money to because the sender knows in

Monero and you just don't want

lightning yeah I do get this point that

there's less information that gets

stored on your wallet side because

that's what this is about on Monero you

are able to see to whom you have sent

the transactions maybe that's an outside

Observer who's watching the blockchain

will not know but if they get access to

your wallet they're going to be able to

see your history of transactions and

also in the case of Monero you can give

up on the

Privacy especially I know that in the

Monero node wallet that you're on on

desktop you can choose to make your

transaction transparent and reveal the

amounts or reveal some information you

can also export a history of your

transactions if you want to reveal that

to someone

so privacy is on by default in

Monero but your wallet knows what what

you're doing and you also store that

information so if you really want to

have good privacy you have to dispose

wallets and just move money around

across different wallets you're saying

that lightning does not store that

information it's not just that it

doesn't store it you actually don't know

you you don't know what the channel is

that your recipient has with his

counterparty um you don't know what

channel that that money is going into

and you don't know what htlc it's going

into uh you're just saying I want to go

to this node and if you're if the person

you if the node you selected has any

Channel with that person they'll they'll

just pick whichever one they want to use

you you as the sender don't get to see

that information so you have less

information from a lightning invoice

about where the money actually went than

you get from a Monero uh public address

right but there's more to it because for

example if you want to send large

amounts you don't get too much

deniability in lightning because there

is not much liquidity last time I

checked it was 5,000 Bitcoin or

something which is the total amount of

coins that are locked into this layer if

you're a whale or something you're

probably better off using

Monaro uh I think I'm not sure that

that's I'm not sure I've not checked um

how many nodes have enough liquidity to

forward like let's say a two Bitcoin

payment um for

$200,000 um but let what what I'm

thinking is if you did send um two

$200,000 through the lightning Network

um I think that it would probably go

through and the routing nodes along the

path would still have onion encryption

that prevents them from knowing who the

sender was and they also have onion

encryption preventing them from knowing

who the recipient is um so yeah is is it

really bad for for to send a large

amount over the lightning Network you

might have to try several times to do it

uh but once you find a once you find a

route then the routing nodes along that

path still don't know who the sender is

or who the recipient is

what about the amount because when

you're opening the channel and let's

assume it it's a two Bitcoin channel

that you're opening with someone that's

pretty visible it's it can be observed

you can see it on 1 ml.com or something

one of these lightning Network explorers

I think also on mol. space I'm not sure

if they have that feature so it's clear

that the liquidity went on the lightning

network but is it possible with

lightning transactions for an outside

Observer to know that to

Bitcoins are being

transferred no it's not possible for an

out only the people on the route would

would know any information about the

amount because amounts aren't gossiped

on the lightning Network they're only

exchanged between the the nodes that are

on along the Route and even there this

is one one reason why I said the the

part that the lightning Network get it

gets it worst on is is amount privacy um

but even there I think it does really

good because for one thing uh it's not

broadcast like in in the lightning in

lightning Network transactions your

transactions are not part of the gossip

Network you're just the only people who

know about your transaction are uh the

people on the route and secondly uh we

have uh what's it called um multipath

payments and if you do a multipath

payment which is built into a lot of

most wallets now uh it splits up the

amount into smaller chunks and then

sends them along different paths to the

recipient and we do this on the liting

network in fact wallets have an

incentive to do this because smaller

amounts tend to go through um more

easily so you get fewer payment failures

if you split up the amount and send it

over multiple cths um but that also

means that any routing node who sees a

payment doesn't know if the amount there

is the full amount being paid or just a

Shard of the amount uh so like in

addition to not broadcasting the amounts

um we also make it so that the routing

notes don't know uh the full amount they

only get a lower bound they know he sent

you know if $50 fls through their

routing node the routing node knows at

least $50 was sent but it might be you

know five sets of 50 that he you know he

split up a $250 payment into five sets

of 50 and you just don't know as a

routing node if he did

that right you have this concept in the

lightning network of private channels

are they really good for privacy or

what's the purpose of

them uh I no I don't think they're

really good for privacy you can find

there's there ways to find someone's

private Channel or at least if they're

not using Tapo there's ways to find

their private Channel um if they're

using Tapo then it gets harder uh the uh

and by the way L &d recently added tap

rot channels I think they did it last

year and a lot of the mobile wallets

support it now which is great

um but what's the purpose you asked and

the purpose is uh to dis to make a

distinction between nodes who are

routing and nodes who are not if you're

if you're a routing node uh you

advertise your um uh you can anyway

advertise your channels and say you

should connect to me look at all these

different destinations I'm connected to

here are my fee rates and you're kind of

advertising and so that you they publish

that information if you're a user and

you're on a smartphone um maybe you

don't want to Route probably you don't

aren't able to because like your phone's

in your pocket most of the time and not

sending messages um so you you make you

don't need to have your channels

announced you you don't need to

advertise yourself as as offering a

service um because you're not so then

they make these channels that aren't

announced on the gossip Network um but

that doesn't make them private so in

early lightning they called them private

channels and uh what's his name Tony

Georgio uh pounded into everyone's head

you can still see them on the blockchain

they're not private um so and he's right

they're just not announced on the gossip

network but they're still on the

blockchain so you can see them right so

what is their purpose more exactly

because they are called

private some people call them private

but let let me Echo Tony Georgia here

and say they I remember when I was using

run the lightning which is this wallet

and I was using it to manage channels on

my L&D node it had this feature when I

was opening a channel to take a box that

said open a private

Channel well it's it's a it's misnomer

and that someone should do a pull

request and change it to an unannounced

channel the the purpose is to say uh is

to not say here is my channel you can

route through me like you're not

advertising that service so you so you

don't make that announcement on the

gossip network but that's the only

difference is they're not announced on

the gossip Network they're still visible

on the blockchain and you can still find

them on the lightning Network which

scenario is more private let's say that

I open a Channel with you and I only

send to you or is it more private if I

open Channels with more people and I

have more

routes it there's there's less trust

well I don't know that's the thing if if

you just open a channel to me and then

do all of your transactions directly

with me I still don't know if you're um

I still don't know who the sender is

because it might be you or you might be

routing a payment um from from someone

who I can't see from from yeah just some

other user and I don't know if you're

doing that or not uh I could make an

assumption and say well he doesn't have

public channels so he's probably not a

router and therefore he probably is a

sender but not all routing notes do have

public channels you can still route with

private Chann with now I'm doing it with

unannounced channels um so yeah I don't

I wouldn't I don't know which one's more

private uh and I guess that's part of

the point is um because the lightning

Network discloses so little information

to the recipient and to routing noes uh

it's difficult to determine whether it's

more private to use zero routing nodes

or to use many either way the recipient

can't tell right so on the Monero side

how would you describe that this works

when let's say Alice sends coins to Bob

what's happening there Ono

yeah yeah uh when when Alice constructs

a transaction to send to Bob she looks

through the the blockchain and she I

don't I want to say randomly but it's

not quite a random algorithm she uses an

algorithm to pick uh a set of decoys uh

these are similar to how we do coin

joins in Bitcoin except it's non-

interactive in Monero which is Awesome

by the way I really like the Monero Tech

on non-interactive uh decoys but you

pick a bunch of people from the

blockchain and you say uh it's typically

16 or it's 15 plus the real plus you um

you pick 15 people and and then you say

one of these people is sending the money

in this transaction I'm listing them all

in my transaction as possible senders

and you create something called a ring

signature a ring signature takes a list

of public keys and creates a signature

such that you know one of the people one

of the pub keys in that list signed it

but you don't know which one uh and

that's what Monero uses to sign their

transactions so you can see uh either

Alice Bob Carol or Dave or you know

however of 16 people one of them sent

the money um but we don't need one uh so

that's the what how manaro protect

cender privacy it does best on amount

privacy where it actually encrypts the

information um so what I was just

describing is not encryption but OB

obscur obscurity which is good like

obscurity is good but in my opin opinion

encryption is better um so it doesn't

encrypt the sender but it does encrypt

the amount and it uses a really cool

encryption standard that it has a

property called perfect blinding which

means even like even if they cracked the

encryption algorithm they still wouldn't

know the amount in the uh in the in the

encoded in a in a Monero transaction

which is great with one exception um the

fee the fee is public in Monero

transactions the fee paid and you might

think well that doesn't matter but it's

used to finger print wallets and to

identify exchanges and other uh in like

uh if you watch this the chain analysis

released a video they didn't releas it

leaked a video last year um in which

they disclose how they trace anarrow

transactions and they spend a

considerable portion of it talking about

how they use the fee to identify whether

someone is in exchange because they tend

to use larger fees or a regular user

because they tend to use the default fee

um or they like have agreements with

certain exchanges that they have like

share information and they use that

information as well um but the fee tells

them a lot about what kind of user is

using Monero uh and so it's not in my

opinion it's not good that Monero uh

publishes the fee they should in my

opinion or I I like systems that encrypt

the entire amount and not leave a little

bit of it unencrypted um Lightning by

the way encrypts the full amount

including the fees uh so your the

routing notes do not know the fee you

paid they only know the fee you paid

them but they don't know the fee you

paid for the full transaction uh and

then lastly is the recipient and in a

Monero transaction when you create a

when you create a mano transaction you

you use a stealth address uh which is

what I was describing earlier you get

someone's public key and you don't send

money to that public key you derive

another public key from it and you send

money to that and uh then you with your

transaction you include information that

the recipient can use to um to figure

out what how how to spend from that

public key uh from the public key you

actually sent the money to they also

make make have a rule in Monero I I

don't think it's a consensus rule but

it's um it's a wallet like everyone does

this where if two transactions get sent

to the same address um the same like

they call them onetime addresses the

ones you derive from the public address

if two transactions get sent to that the

wallet will ignore the second one and

it'll only acknowledge the first

transaction which is great because uh

that means no one ever sends like no one

ever reuses addresses on Monero because

their wallet wouldn't even show they

received it which is which I I I really

like that and I I want I like to do

stuff like that too so thank you arrow

for making good privacy

Tech that's interesting I want to also

explore this side of network level

privacy because in the case of lightning

you have nodes which are associated with IP

addresses and in the case of Monero you

have dandelion Plus+ which was actually

a proposal for Bitcoin to dissociate

transactions from IP addresses and nodes

and you can also put Tour on top in the

case of lightning you can optionally use

tour for your node but that only slows

down your transactions makes you less

likely to

route and it only makes it useful for

yourself in some cases but can also lead

payments uh there are some downsides to

using tour uh and I I am glad to see if

you if you go to uh Clark Moody's

Bitcoin dashboard something like 70% of

routing nodes on the lightning Network

use tour anyway um which I think is

wonderful uh some might say well no

wonder payments fail 70% of the routing

nodes are using tour um but that's the

situation I think I think that's largely

because of umbrell I think people set up

they download they get they buy an

umbrell or a start n machine or one of

these nodes in a box and they default to

uh most of them default to running your

running your node on tour um actually

one interesting thing when you're

setting up L&D it does not default to um

to setting to to doing it on mainnet or

on clear net I mean uh to to using ipv4

or IPv6 uh in fact you have to uh you

have to choose like there's no default

set uh when you try to set up a routing

node uh you get you have you have to say

in your configuration file whether you

want it to be on tour or on Clearnet and

and specify that I I really like that it

seems that most routing notes choose to

do it over tour um yeah dandelion Plus+

is a great technology in Monero and uh I

I don't know why Bitcoin wallets haven't

adopted it because we totally can it's

not even a it's not even a consensus

rule change your wallet can just start

doing it and and then you then you have

it and we don't even have to worry about

like writing the code because it's

already out there Monero wallets have it

so just copy paste uh and that that

would be great I don't know why we're

not I don't know why no wallet's doing

that um uh I forget what your question

did I answer your question I don't think I

did in the case of the lightning Network

level privacy yeah is there any way to

associate trans actions with a certain IP

address uh no so or at least not unless

you're a routing node and you happen to

know who the sender is um so yeah in the

lighting Network we don't we don't um

you don't gossip your IP address or your

tour address unless you're a routing

node so I mentioned earlier that when

you're setting up a routing node you

have to set it to be on mainnet or

Clearnet when you do that you start

advertising you start saying here are my

channels you should rout through me I'm

I connected to all these people if you

just set up a Noe you set up like

electrum or you set up L&D or Phoenix or

something it's not going to tell people

your IP address it doesn't put it

doesn't use gossip um because it's not

it's not needed you're not routing any

information any transactions you're not

advertising that service um so you don't

actually so people like to say you know

a lightning invoice docks as your IP

address it doesn't un unless you're a

routing node if you're a routing node

then it docks as your IP address um but

if you're not if you're just a user then

it doesn't and so that's pretty cool uh

another aspect of network level privacy

to see is that uh on the lightning

Network when you're sending a

transaction every interaction between

you and the routes along the along the

path is encrypted so we use on

encryption so I I encrypt a layer for uh

well I guess I start with the last guy

encrypt I encrypt a layer for him and

then uh I wrap that in a layer for the

next hop back and I wrap that in a layer

for the next hop back and so there's all

these layers of encryption that make

every single interaction encrypted on

the lightning network uh and other

networks don't do this so on bitcoin

when I interact with my peers it's not

encrypted the traffic is uh in plain

text and on anarrow as well when you

interact with your peers when you send

transactions you send them in plain text

um so there is no peer-to-peer traffic

encryption on Monero and there is enl

lightening and I just thought I'd like

to mention that

that

yeah I guess in the case of Monero it's

much more difficult so there is no

condition that your node is a routing

one or not

you have much better Network level

privacy by default thanks to dandelion

you don't even have to use T but if you

add t on top it's GNA be much more

private uh I think it's a really good

idea to use tour um in the TR analysis

video that I mentioned earlier can we

can we put the link to the G analysis

video in the show notes I'll send it to

you yeah I think it was taken down a

bunch of times so it's hard to keep

track of where that is if you have it

that's pretty cool I have I have a link

that has been working for the last two

weeks or so um in that video they go

over how they do traffic analysis after

um the dandelion upgrade was implemented

and they said all of our assumptions

about traffic analysis get much weaker

after 20 if the if trans for

transactions that were broadcasted after

2020 however there's one thing that is

different here or there's one thing to

note which is that uh wallets like cake

wallet and man Monero J don't do what a

lot of Bitcoin wallets do which is

pretend to be a node and then uh connect

use the peer-to-peer connection to

broadcast your transactions most of them

use something called remote procedure

call which means they they ask some

website RPC yeah RPC calls and they they

ask some website and say um you you do

transactions from an arrow right here's

here's the raw hex of my transaction

please broadcast this to the network and

when you do that you're not uh getting

the protections of Dandy lion because

that's only applies at the peer-to-peer

level and not at the remote procedure

call level so in the analysis video

about a third of the transactions that

they click on were sent by uh people who

just were using a wallet that went to

one of the uh one of the servers owned

by chainalysis or partnered with

chainalysis and broadcasted it there um

so yeah the dandelion great but in order

to do that you have to run your own node

because wallets don't do it they they

could they could each wallet could

pretend to be a peer and then send the

transactions over the peer-to-peer level

and then they would get the dandelion

protection but they're not doing that um

I don't know why um uh but yeah if so if

you want the Dand line of stuff you have

to run your own node or wait till a

developer implements a wallet that does

it on mobile um and you also I think you

should use tour because although

dandelion tries to protect your IP

address if a lot of the nodes are

listening for these things uh they could

they could with some probability they

could get get they could figure out I

don't know I I don't want to say that I

wanted to say with some probability they

could figure it out but I'm not sure

that true so I don't want to finish

there I will just say I think it's

better if you use tour although on the

on the GitHub for an arrow uh if you

enable the tour option the GitHub says

it's not used for relaying transactions

it's only used for a couple of things um

and and one not or it doesn't use them

for relaying transactions which is

interesting I don't know why they don't

do that you you'd have to like use a

separate tour implementation than the

one that's integrated into Monero if you

wanted to actually relay transactions

encrypted uh because for some reason it

doesn't do that and I haven't read the

rationale last year we have seen a lot

of these ecash mens and federations that

use eash which gives you much better

privacy at the expense of control over

your own keys or

custody and you're you're going to have

to trust some custodian that he's going

to be honest and you're going to be able

to trade within not trade you know send

and receive inside of that Federation

with pretty good privacy

would you say that it's a net benefit

for for privacy and how does that

privacy of ecash compared to that of Monero

Monero

um it depend whether it's it's sometimes

a benefit um so I I personally don't

like to put a significant amount of

money on custodial Solutions I don't

mind having a couple bucks on there um

but when I get to about $20 worth of

value and then I'm like I don't want to

have that money on a custodian I want to

withdraw it to my own self- custody

uh sometimes I call this candy bar money

I don't care if my candy bar money is

custody um so I I will I I will do that

for like nostr apps or something um but

yeah for me it's more important that I

take control of the custody of my coins

uh whenever it's a significant amount of

money um but you didn't ask about

whether IE whether I prefer a custody

you asked whether it what are the

Privacy advantages of doing this and the

Privacy advantage of using an e-cat Min

is similar to the Privacy advantage of

using something like tornado cach on

Monero or uh tornado catch on ethereum

where uh the the the pool that is that

has aggregated all the user funds does

not disclose when a payment is made it

does not disclose who in the group made

the payment you only know it was it was

somebody in this pool uh similar with an

ecash mint if the ecash Mint sends out a

a payment to somewhere you don't know

and even the mint operator doesn't know

which member of the mint sent the money

um it's just uh you just know it's

somebody in that in that group sent the

money um so that's a privacy advantage

and depending on the size of the mint

and how many uses it has it might be

bigger than the an anonymity set that

you currently get with Monero because

monero's current ring signature size is

16 you have 16 people who are in your uh

transaction with you your transaction

plus 15 decoys right yeah well your yeah

your UT your txo plus 16 decoys 15

decoys um but with a mint it depends on

how many people there are and uh yeah I

don't I don't know how many users mints have

have

um so yeah I don't know with what what

the benefit you get there is it's it's

hard to say I suspect that the bigger

men so the ones with a lot of liquidity

on them um probably have more than 15

users and so then you'd be getting a

bigger an enity set but I don't know

because because they don't disclose at

least I don't think they disclose how

many people are using them I don't think

I don't even know if they know how many

people are using them yeah because each

each they could count the number of

deposits but each deposit could like

some of the deposits are going to be by

the same user so they so they wouldn't

even know how many users they

have I'm aware that you've had a debate

with looke Parker who's right now

working on full chain membership proofs

on Monero and that one is going to

increase the anonymity set to be

correspondent to basically the whole

chain it will not be only [Music]

[Music]

16 yeah transactions in that ring it

will be the whole change I told him I

told him that we should that he should

call it oops all decoys because uh

there's that there's that cereal the

Captain Crunch cereal where the where

it's oops all berries instead of having

the the golden corn pieces I was like

you should call it oops all decoys that

would be a much catchier name uh I don't

know uh I I think it sounds like a

wonderful uh piece of technology Luke

Parker who was smarter than me uh and

implemented it or I don't think he

implemented it I think he made like a

prototype or something uh he seems to be

really confident that it does what it

says and it makes it so that you can't

tell which member of the Monero um

Pub Key set um spent this spent this

money if that's true that's great like I

would love to reanalyze this debate and

see which which has better privacy after

uh full chain membership proofs get

implemented I haven't seen any criticism

of it I haven't heard intuitively it

sounds like a great thing um so I yeah I

just I look forward to seeing how it you

know once it's developed and tried it

out on testet and then on mainnet and

more eyes are on it I would love to see

uh love to learn more about bullain

membership proofs it sounds awesome once

it's tried on testnet is g to be tried

on super

testnet if maybe by then I'll have a

Monero clone uh that you could try it on

I do have my own Bitcoin testnet that

you can try Bitcoin apps on but I don't

have a Monero one it well I doubt I will

because I just find working on bitcoin more

interesting um in one thing I thought of

when I was uh at the gym today is that

the idea of full chain membership proofs

is to make it so that you can't disting

uish whether the sender is which of the

Monero users the sender is and I tried

to wonder is there another way to

accomplish that because we don't have

zero knowledge well this we don't have

the same zero knowledge proof technology

in Bitcoin that you guys have in Monero

or that the mono people have in Monero

but we do have some things and I tried

to think what would we do to to make it

so that you couldn't distinguish whether

the sender is um who the sender is and

the what what I thought of was what I

keep coming back to is the lighning

network uh and liting Network we encrypt

the sender and so any routing note on

the on the route he just sees an

encrypted blob so he doesn't know who

the sender is um and that encrypted blob

could have been made by anyone who has a

lightning wallet so do encrypted senders

count as full Chade membership proofs I

imagine Luke Parker swinging an ax right

now and saying definitely not it's

totally different but uh yeah Luke do a

post and tell us why why why is that why

is that different I'd love to learn

Yeah you mentioned zero knowledge proofs

I also want to ask you why you compare

lightning with Monero and not with zcash

because that one has much more advanced

cryptography it already has what mono is

trying to accomplish with full chain

users uh maybe my next post will be

comparing uh zcat to Monero but I I

don't know why I chose to go with Monero

uh in my post in my comparison post

rather than zcash uh but it might have a

lot to do with the fact uh like

subconscious I was like well it's more

useful to win over the Monero users

because there's more of them than there

are zcash users I don't know I I didn't

think about zcash when I made the post

yeah I guess you also wanted to dunk on

the fact that most of the transactions

on dark web markets are being made with

Monero and you wanted to prove that

lightning can also be used for that and

you can provide a couple of links to

attest that that there are some listings

on some dark web markets of non- illegal

stuff that's being sold for Bitcoin

using the lightning

Network why do you think there are not

more of these listings what do you think

is the

roadblock I suspect it is the barrier to

entry for the lightning Network in order

to set up a Monero node um well you

don't even need a Monero node in order

to set up a Monero wallet you just

download a wallet and you're off and

running and so I think that makes it

really a lot easier on um darket Market

developers whereas for lightning uh

there's an extra step you have to

download a wallet and you have to set up

channels um so I I suspect it's that

extra step and and then yeah uh then on

users users also have those two steps

every user not only has to uh it might

be fine for developer team to say okay

we downloaded a wallet and then we set

up a channel that that you know took us

an afternoon but if each of your users

has to spend an afternoon uh setting up

their wallet in order to pay you maybe

that maybe that's the reason I I wonder

if the reason why darket markets

um more of them use Monero or I I don't

even know if that's true I I I wonder if

more Market more darket markets would

use lightning if it was as easy to set

up for both users and developers as

Monero is so that's one of the things

that I work on is making it easier to

use the lightning Network now if you

look at XMR Bazar which is what I used

and it's not a dark net Market it's just

a market it has lots of listings and a

lot of them are from Europe and us you

find a lot of crap I I bought a Nintendo

64 using that I thought was it was super

cool that I could do that and I felt a

bit sorry that there's not a Bitcoin

equivalent that has lots of listings you

know because there was open Bazaar there

was Plein at one point which was

something where you sell your stuff it

was sort of like eBay but I'm not aware

of something that has a lot of listings

nowadays I will send you a link the one

that I found that uh I think they were

they were like chocolates with with

Monera I almost said Monero chocolates

with marijuana in them um that's the the

link I just sent you is the darket

market I found where people were doing

that and it looks to me like it has a

lot of listings so check that one out

and it allthough the those listings

support the lighting Network yeah let me

open the tour browser and check it

out in the meantime all this loads

because tour is slow I got to tell you

about Sid shift which is this place

where you can trade the various

shitcoins that you can get from Air

drops or whatever if someone sends you

something don't say no just take it from

them and swap it for the kind of free

market money that you actually want to

hold on sides shift they have a lot of

liquidity they have pretty low fees if

someone gives you for your birthday some

Trump tokens from the meme coin because

they take pride in owning that you don't

have to tell them what you really think

you can just accept that and swap it for

Bitcoin on sides shift you can actually

do that or if someone offers to pay you an

usdt it's a bull market man don't hold

on to stable coins I mean not Financial

advice but you're probably better off

buying Bitcoin with that so check out

Sid chi. a and and also I got to ask you

about layer 2 labs and drive chains

because people from their telegram chat

are watching right now and they want to

know what's your latest opinion of what

pole is doing with all of that what's it

called core untouched soft Fork yeah the

core untouched soft Fork uh I like it uh

so my my take uh is that Paul has

observed that one of the reasons why

miners haven't activated bit 300 yet uh

I suspect I think he suspects too is

because they don't want to use Paul's um

drive his his Fork of Bitcoin core

because then like it wouldn't get as it

probably wouldn't get as good and as

often of security updates as Bitcoin

core does and so I I think miners

basically are just like we just want to

use whatever whatever everyone else is

using and whatever one gets the gets

frequent security updates and and and

has a lot of developer focus and that's

just not Paul's software

uh it's it's him and his team working on

it and no one else at least as far as

I'm aware so I think he came up with

this idea of saying well what if we

could make it so that you could

Implement Drive chains without touching

Bitcoin core and I think that's a

brilliant idea so what he does is he

makes it so that um the if the minor

runs this um this non with this uh this

software to the side this core untouch

softwork software they will reject

transactions that violate the bip 300

rules uh and from the me poool and they

will uh invalidate blocks that don't

follow the bip 300 Rules by just calling

the invalidate block command and by uh

having a new mempool filtering policy

and by doing that you make it so that

you don't have to you don't have to

change Bitcoin core you can still as a

minor run Bitcoin core you can still get

the frequent security updates you can

still get all this good stuff that

Bitcoin core has but you can also

activate Drive chains on the side and I

think that's great um I hope I I hope

it's a success and um let's get Drive

chains happening that'd be great

yeah last year I think you came up or

maybe it wasn't you but I did see this

from you that you can basically do Drive

chains with covenants it's not ideal

you're removing some of the protections

that are provided to users but miners

can do

that miners the the nice thing about

softw works is or well a nice thing

about softw works is that every one

we've ever done um with with some

caveats around segwit was done by miners

like miners implemented not they didn't

implement the code miners chose to run

the code and reject the blocks that

didn't follow the new rules after you

know s 90% of them or so signaled that

they were ready to uh ready to do it and

I think they could do that with bip 300

they could just start signaling we're

gonna we're gonna start invalidating

blocks after you know block whatever uh

that don't follow the new bit 300 rules

and they could do that even if without

like without getting permission from

anyone I just think the uh what I talked

about earlier they just don't want to

run separate software and then not have

uh frequently frequent updates and good

developer teams on them um I forget I

meandered from your question oh could

you do them with a with

covenants probably you probably can do

them with COV I suspect you can actually

you can probably do Drive chains without

covenants um as long as minors are

willing to uh enforce enforce a variable

length time lock which I think you could

do variable length time locks using like

um uh by by using like a counter I think

you could use a counter and you

increment it by like revealing hashes

and stuff like we do in bit VM I think

there's probably a way to do Drive

chains um without a softwork at all but

it still requires miners to run special

software and so somebody has to write it

and then convince them to do it um and

you know Paul's Paul's taking on that

fight um yeah you you could probably do

them with covenants most things are

possible if you think about it for a

really long time and have smart people

work on it but um yeah Paul is one of

the smart people and he's working on it

so thank you Paul what do you think about

about

oifc do you think it's gonna happen if

we get that strategic Reserve from the

US I think it already happened uh I

don't I don't think Bitcoin will ever

see a soft Fork again uh or a hard fork

and I think I think it's I think it's aifi

aifi

um if you want my opinion on oif I think

it sucks um I oifc means uh you stop

fixing problems and that seems to be

what was happened in Bitcoin

so uh I don't like that and and I would

like to see more I would like to see

deification and and more fixes and

improvements in the in the consensus

rules yeah that's a very nice answer but

someone who is on the side of

oasification and possibly a spook is

going to say yeah you're just trying to

get paid because you have solutions for

problems that they don't consider

actually exist they'll say Bitcoin is

already perfect and you're just a Dev

who's trying to get a

paycheck well they're not wrong about

the ladder I am to get a paycheck so you caught

caught

me I don't think there's anything wrong

with trying to get a paycheck but I also

don't think uh there there's no such

thing as perfection in software um I

don't think it's attainable and uh so

anyone who says Bitcoin is perfect I

think they're wrong I think I think

it what do you think about these ZK

rollups this podcast is also sponsored

by craa and they are doing the

equivalent of optimism on ethereum with

their ZK rollup which you're going to

argue that is not a true ZK rollup

because it doesn't use bit

VM I think I've heard you argue that before

before

well you can have a true rollup that I

mean none of the ethereum rollups use

BDM either so you don't have to use BDM

to be a true rollup uh I don't remember

my thoughts on ca's blockchain thing uh

I remember having thoughts about it but

I don't remember what they are I do

remember thinking craa is a scam so I

could I could rail about that for a

little bit if you want if you want but

sure I also got leaman to talk about it

and he said you know it's actually

honest as long as it doesn't claim to be

what it's not and of course it's not

everything that you expect it to be yet

but maybe if we get a covenant it's

going to be much

better yeah I I don't I I have very

little recollection of I haven't thought

about them in probably six months and I

don't remember what my thoughts were so

uh I I just remember having a negative

opinion about them but I don't remember

why but you did concede at one point and

you said you know oron is not a scammer

or something I did I did

um yeah so we we had a I had a podcast

with the guy from Oran where I laid out

my reasons why I think they're a scam

and mostly it had to do with their

website saying that they did things that

they hadn't done um and saying they were

they were the first to do things that

they were not the first to

do uh and he very carefully showed me

that uh if you pared the if you pared

the sentences just right um they didn't

say those things and and I the reason

I'm being vague here is because I don't

remember remember the details anymore it

was It was kind of it was a long time

ago and I haven't thought about it since

um after that

event Robin Linus contacted me and he

gave me additional reasons to think they

they are a scam and I don't know if I

was fully persuaded or I don't I don't

have a good feeling about craa uh and I

don't I don't remember what his reasons

were and I also don't remember what my

reasons were I do remember thinking that

he answered my reasons

sufficiently but I still don't have a

good opinion of them H and and that's

that's about as much as I can remember

so I apologize for it I didn't know we

were going to talk about Satria

otherwise I would have gathered my

thoughts more no it's all good what

they're trying to do I think is pretty

interesting because they want to bring

these def applications to bitcoin they

want to be a layer where you can put

your Bitcoin as collateral to issue

stable coins and basically get a loan in

the style of Celsius or blockfi without

the company without the

middleman so what remember part of it

now um one of the things that they

claimed in their white paper or not

their white paper but on their website

and the when I declared them a scam one

of the things they claimed was we have

executed the first zero knowledge proof

rollup uh on bitcoin or we have like

launched the first zero knowledge proof

roll up on bitcoin and all they had done

at the time was made one transaction and this

this

transaction uh but it it didn't

contain it it contained like a proof

that one block existed of of another

blockchain and I said like this what

what they made it they made the they

made the blockchain using like ethereum

software evm software they created a

zero knowledge proof they validated the

zero knowledge proof off of Bitcoin and

then they just included on bitcoin like

the text of the of the you know it's

valid or something like that and I

remember saying at the time this is not

launching a zero knowledge proof rollup

on bitcoin your website says it is but

it's not and I believe orin's answer to

that was how many blocks do you need to

count as a blockchain and I had to

concede only one he was like well we did

one block and we showed that it worked

on bitcoin so that counts okay so

semantics at this point well but I don't

yeah I technically they I guess you

could say they did they did what they

what they technically said but it just

the way it's worded makes it sound like

you can use it and it's it's more like

they did something that you could do at

a hackathon or something like you you

could have made you could have validated

a zero knowledge proof off of Bitcoin on

a weekend and then published the proof

on bitcoin and and done that for a

hackathon project and then they've like

raised millions of dollars off this

stuff and I was just like this is not a

usable product this is just uh like look

that we look that we know how zero

knowledge proofs Works work and and so I

was not that that's part of I thought

they were raising money off of

essentially a lie but he said look if

you look very carefully we only claim to

do a blockchain and a blockchain only

requires one block and you know there

was this whole yeah I I just I don't

like I didn't I don't have good feelings

about craa but that that is as much

clarity as you're going to get on it

because I my memories on the subject are

very vague no it's fine I also remember

Robin Linus's objections he was unhappy

that they did not accomplish too much

and they raised a lot of money I think

this was his concern maybe he was a bit

jealous because I I think honestly I

think Robin did a pretty good job he

could have raised a lot of money but he

chose to do a PhD instead and push the

research further I respect that yeah I I

think it make be jealousy uh and that

might be what's motivating me too I

might have been sitting there and in my

subconscious little lizard mind it was

saying I could have made a zero

knowledge proof off of Bitcoin and then

posted it on bitcoin and raised a

million dollars but that's like

unethical and so I wouldn't do that but

but they did it and so then I got mad at

them but maybe it's also just jealousy

like I I should have gotten a ion dollar

or something like that it was more than

that yeah well still the principle is uh

I I don't we're still poor it's fine

yeah it's fine there are some comments

in the chat and I feel sorry for

ignoring this I did put on the screen

for a little while Shopify not Shopify

shopster and this one has some listings

and we're going to talk about that but

before that let's get to the comments in

the chat because I think some of them

are interesting and I don't want these

guys to go away I don't feel I I don't

want them to feel like they're getting

ignored so there is Max

Wonderland who said good evening

gentlemen with lightning Network one of

you can see them on YouTube if you want

and if you want to read along myself

with lightning Network one of the

problems is most people use custodial

lightning which defeats the whole

purpose and creates big players that

gets a lot of in oh that get a lot of

information about the funds in the

network moving around by the way the

stream is pretty laggy with little cut

offs from The Sound I don't know if

that's only me I don't know also

transactions through lightning can fail

also opening channels is very expensive

one of the reasons why most people seem

to use custodial yes ring ring

signatures are the weakest link at the

moment in XMR but that gets fixed soon

with full chain membership proofs I

think we went through this sorry but

what is he talking about wallets always

send a transaction to a node it's either

your own node or someone else like cake

so every transaction is secured by

dandelion this is his Claim about our

talk about Network level privacy and he

also says chain analysis runs own nodes

and proxies disguised as valid nodes

that's how they are able to link

transactions to IPS of real of the real

sender um yeah I agree with the last

sentence that that is one of the ways

they do it um but you you in after

dandelion came into effect you need like

you need to surround the node and know

that he like have some kind of a

confidence he doesn't have any other

connections to any other nodes it's like

a Cil attack in order to get around

dandelion but the other thing they do is

you said every every node either talks

every wallet either talks to its own

node or to someone else's node and

therefore they're all protected by

dandelion not if it's a chainalysis node

if it's if you connect directly to a

chainalysis node and not not through the

peer-to-peer network but through their

RPC call give them you the hex of the

raw hex of your transaction as a lot of

these wallets do you're not getting the

protections of dandelion because they

they know then you're not using the

peer-to-peer Network you're using uh

effectively a website or you know a web

server somewhere to talk to communicate

and so you're not getting the

protections of dandelion dandelion is

only run by nodes and it's not run by

these wallet programs um who don't

accept incoming they don't accept

inbound connections they they don't even

have a static IP address or or onion

address uh they're off most of the times

they don't they don't route uh they

don't relay transactions and if that's

the one connecting to the RPC call then

they have very high confidence that it's

um that it's that it's the actual sender

and not you know some dandelion um node

so yeah that's just uh I so I disagree

very I disagree with the sentence where

you said um it either connects to uh

your own node or someone else's node

well I don't disagree with that but it

misses the point which is that there's

two ways to connect to a node either the

peer-to-peer way where you where you

either are a peer or pretend to be a

peer or there's the RPC way and that way

is leaks a lot of information um so I

don't think wallets should do that and I

don't think they need to I think they

wallets can uh implement the part of the

peer-to-peer protocol necessary to look

like a to look like a dandelion um to

look like something that supports

dandelion and I just don't think they

have there's also another comment by

Inigo arula I

I hope I'm not mispronouncing and here

she says LSP plus kyc will remove older

privacy for most people on the lightning

Network LSB meaning lightning service

provider for those who don't

know yeah I don't think that's true

either there's two there's two groups of

people who use um LSPs there's users and

there's routing nodes and uh the LSP

can't distinguish whether you're a just

a regular end user or your routing node

so if you are um sending a transaction

and you're using an LSP uh they don't

know if you're the sender or if you're a

routing node and that is really good for

your privacy because they don't know who

the sender is um uh the other someone

mentioned earlier everybody's using

custodians on the lightning Network well

I don't think everyone is um I I don't

think everyone's using custodians on the

lighting network uh those who choose to

do so are uh compromising their privacy

because the sender of the transaction

knows who the sender is and who the

amount is uh and what the amount is uh

they don't know who the they don't know

what address is receiving the

transaction which is you know a good

thing that is in my opinion better than

what Monero offers um but they still

know who the sender is and who the who

the amount is so if you're using a

custodian um you're not getting good

privacy from that custodian and I

recommend uh not doing that anymore if

you're looking for good well I recom I

was about to say don't do that if you're

looking for good privacy what I should

say is you should look for good privacy

and therefore you should not use a

custodian um because then you're only

getting recipient um privacy the you're

of the three categories sender privacy

amount privacy and recipient privacy

you're only getting recipient privacy

then and uh it's better if you get you

know all three by running your own node

or by using one of these you know phone

wallets I have this phone wallet it's

Phoenix and right now it's connecting to

tour and then a lightning pier and an

electrum server and it's also uploading

payments to a cloud I'm not sure exactly

which Cloud if it's my account or

somebody else's or if it's encrypted but

is this really private I connect to tour

first then there is a lightning Pier

which I'm not sure if it's random or

it's a predetermined one and then

electrum server which likewise I'm not

sure if it's

randomized uh looking at that I would

say when you when you send a transaction

using the setup you have there you get

good receiver privacy because lightning

has better receiver privacy than Monero

does you have no amount privacy um

because even though you're constructing

the transaction that you're sending

across the lighting Network you the way

that Phoenix par in particular works you

send your lightning transaction to

Phoenix the entire thing you don't do

shards uh like like a node does you send

the entire thing to Phoenix and then you

say please find a route to um to the

recipient's node uh so you're not

getting any amount privacy there they

they know that you're not using shards

because they've designed the Wallace

that you don't use shards I'll take this

opportunity to say Phoenix you should

Implement multipath payments in like

constructed by the sender that would be

good because that would protect that

would protect more of the amount

information and then they don't know if

you're using tour consistently on

Phoenix then I don't think they know

your IP address which is good for your

sender privacy um I don't I imagine

however that even if you are using tour

there's probably um

fingerprinting that they can do on your

wallet um I don't I don't know enough

about how operating systems if they have

other ways of getting information to

this to the uh provider of an app other

than the buil of the network connection

used inside the app I I imagine there's

probably a back door that uh like

Android or iOS can use to send

information about you even if you're

using tour inside the app because the

rest of your phone's not using tour and

your phone still knows you're using

Phoenix so there's I I imagine there's a

backd door way for them to find out who

you are as the sender of that wallet

even when you're using tour and so you'd

only get receiver privacy if that's true

um if they've designed the wallet in

such a way that they don't have

information about you if you're using

tour then you'd also have good sender

privacy so yes on receiver privacy zero

amount privacy uh I don't know on Center

privacy on the banero side the

equivalent is the vew key right and this

is their big talk just like there's talk

about DX poob in the case of Bitcoin

key okay um I I don't do you want me to

talk about my thoughts on on vew keys

well what I want you to tell me is what

key and what types of wallets do that

I don't know which types of wallets do

that um a well-designed wallet would not

disclose your vew key to um to your

wallet provider or to to any anyone it

would keep it it would keep it only

visible to you if someone has your

viewkey they can view all incoming

transactions and view the

amounts and well and you and because

Monero doesn't encrypt a sender you'd

also get the list of 16 possible senders

but it wouldn't say which one um was was

the real one so you you just know the

amounts and You' know the recipient uh

and you still get good you still get

decent sender privacy on even if someone

has your view key on

Monero so basically having someone's

Bitcoin I think well I think there's an

I think there's a caveat there I believe

there is some information I forget what

it is I was looking at V Keys once and I

was really surprised to find out that

they don't tell you everything there's

there's some piece of information that

oh it's probably it's probably the

sender it's probably just that they

don't get the sender information so no

it doesn't turn it into Bitcoin because

in Bitcoin unless you're using the coin

join and you're using the Bas layer you

do get the sender every time um whereas

with uh well and also yeah there's the

copy ads but on Monero you don't so it

doesn't turn it so even if someone has

your vew key it's still better thanit

than Bitcoin Bas layer on for privacy I

appreciate the honesty the way that

you're breaking down these I really

appreciate the nuances there's also

Inigo in the chat who says I see

lightning as something that has

potential to be private theoretically

but with real world limitations I really

do not see how it can be

achieved I don't know what real world limitations

limitations

means well it's I think if I had to if I

wanted to say a similar sentence uh I

would say um there's no plug- Inplay

solution for privacy on the lightning

network if you want to set up a private

a lightning Network Noe and get decent

privacy out of it or if you want to use

lightning rather and get decent privacy

out of it you have to do things like

download a node um set it up configure

it to use tour uh open channels and

manage your liquidity and that's like

five things uh and that that then you'd

I I think you'd have decent privacy in

that case as long as you didn't make any

mistakes like accidentally forgetting to

use tour one time and then you just leak

everything um and I think

uh so what he said was because of real world limitations it's impossible to get

world limitations it's impossible to get um good privacy on Lightning I don't

um good privacy on Lightning I don't think it's impossible and I don't I

think it's impossible and I don't I don't think real those you know those

don't think real those you know those are the five things you have to watch

are the five things you have to watch for and I I don't think it's an

for and I I don't think it's an insurmountable task so you can do it can

insurmountable task so you can do it can you can have a really you can have a

you can have a really you can have a really good privacy on your lightning

really good privacy on your lightning node uh some Monero people that I argue

node uh some Monero people that I argue with online say it's different with

with online say it's different with Monero um you can get really good

Monero um you can get really good privacy on Monero by just you know

privacy on Monero by just you know downloading cake wallet or downloading

downloading cake wallet or downloading monu J uh I don't think it's true I

monu J uh I don't think it's true I don't think you get well you get decent

don't think you get well you get decent privacy um I don't think you get as good

privacy um I don't think you get as good of privacy as you get by setting it up

of privacy as you get by setting it up on the lightning Network in order to get

on the lightning Network in order to get decent privacy on rero I think you have

decent privacy on rero I think you have to run your own node because otherwise

to run your own node because otherwise you're making remote procedure calls and

you're making remote procedure calls and people can find out the IP address of

people can find out the IP address of the sender um and you have to um use

the sender um and you have to um use tour I think I think you have to use

tour I think I think you have to use tour in order to use them an hour

tour in order to use them an hour privately because although dandelion

privately because although dandelion helps it doesn't protect you if you're

helps it doesn't protect you if you're if all the nodes you're connected to are

if all the nodes you're connected to are cils or even if most of them are sibles

cils or even if most of them are sibles um and we we know from the videos

um and we we know from the videos released by Chain analysis and Cipher

released by Chain analysis and Cipher Trace that they are both running that

Trace that they are both running that chainalysis companies are running nodes

chainalysis companies are running nodes and Gathering IP addresses from users

and Gathering IP addresses from users they they show it in their video uh so

they they show it in their video uh so in order to prevent that in order to

in order to prevent that in order to prevent them from getting your IP

prevent them from getting your IP address it's important that you use your

address it's important that you use your own nodes you're not using RPC calls and

own nodes you're not using RPC calls and you run to you use it over tour so that

you run to you use it over tour so that even if they even if you do even if they

even if they even if you do even if they are sibling you they don't get your real

are sibling you they don't get your real IP address they only get your tour

IP address they only get your tour address um so that's two things like on

address um so that's two things like on Monero in order to have decent privacy

Monero in order to have decent privacy you have to run your own note and you

you have to run your own note and you have to use tour and as long as you're

have to use tour and as long as you're going through the trouble of doing that

going through the trouble of doing that setup why not do the lightning setup and

setup why not do the lightning setup and get better privacy like if you if you

get better privacy like if you if you need serious privacy lightning offers it

need serious privacy lightning offers it in a better way than Monero does oh and

in a better way than Monero does oh and like with lightning you also have to

like with lightning you also have to make sure you never make a mistake like

make sure you never make a mistake like if you accidentally forget to do it on

if you accidentally forget to do it on tour sometime that might be the time

tour sometime that might be the time that they get you so yeah it's just you

that they get you so yeah it's just you have to be constant and Vigilant about

have to be constant and Vigilant about your privacy stuff and there's just I

your privacy stuff and there's just I don't think there's a plug Inplay

don't think there's a plug Inplay solution for that um wait who is

solution for that um wait who is they did you you say that's where they

they did you you say that's where they get

get you oh the chain analysis that's where

you oh the chain analysis that's where chain analysis gets you okay so that's

chain analysis gets you okay so that's the

the day yeah the day is chain analysis and

day yeah the day is chain analysis and and Cipher trace and other analytics

and Cipher trace and other analytics companies I'm G to put this article on

companies I'm G to put this article on the screen it's the lowest hanging fruit

the screen it's the lowest hanging fruit right it's this article published in

right it's this article published in 2021 that's titled chainalysis launches

2021 that's titled chainalysis launches support for lightning Network as layer 2

support for lightning Network as layer 2 payment protocols gain popularity and my

payment protocols gain popularity and my question for you is what can they know

question for you is what can they know and what can they see what does this

and what can they see what does this support really

support really mean uh yeah if you read the article

mean uh yeah if you read the article they tell you what they can what they

they tell you what they can what they what they're doing in there and they're

what they're doing in there and they're offering something called

um man can you can you send me the link in here so I can look it up they they

in here so I can look it up they they they say exactly what they know about

they say exactly what they know about this can I send it to you on telegram

this can I send it to you on telegram yes you have it for desktop because I

yes you have it for desktop because I don't want to mess up up what's on the

don't want to mess up up what's on the screen so super I I did that a couple of

screen so super I I did that a couple of times during this stream I

times during this stream I apologize

apologize s thank you I see the

s thank you I see the link

um for people watching I put this on the screen and we can basically read

together what is the lightning Network section there is the how popular is it

section there is the how popular is it section

uh okay so what they offer is a transaction monitoring solution for the

transaction monitoring solution for the lightning network uh specifically

lightning network uh specifically chainalysis

chainalysis kyt uh they will be able to use um kyt

kyt uh they will be able to use um kyt to monitor their lightning their

to monitor their lightning their lightning Network transactions screen

lightning Network transactions screen for risky activity and gain valuable

for risky activity and gain valuable insights so if you if you look up this

insights so if you if you look up this term um chainalysis kyt they Define what

term um chainalysis kyt they Define what that is on other parts of their website

that is on other parts of their website and it's specifically ofac compliance so

and it's specifically ofac compliance so whenever a exchange is sending money to

whenever a exchange is sending money to a user um that you're withdrawing your

a user um that you're withdrawing your money from an exchange they have to take

money from an exchange they have to take the address you give and check whether

the address you give and check whether that address is on the ofac sanctioned

that address is on the ofac sanctioned list and they called this product

list and they called this product whereby you can send them the address

whereby you can send them the address and they will check if it's on the ofac

and they will check if it's on the ofac list for you uh they call that chain

list for you uh they call that chain alysis

alysis kyt um so what they do what they can do

kyt um so what they do what they can do with the lightning network is take the

with the lightning network is take the take the invoice that the that the

take the invoice that the that the person wants to withdraw with and get

person wants to withdraw with and get the pub key from it and check if that

the pub key from it and check if that Pub key is on the ofac ofac list uh also

Pub key is on the ofac ofac list uh also important to note um these public keys

important to note um these public keys are don't receive money they're only on

are don't receive money they're only on um they they're only used for

um they they're only used for communication uh so it's even a silly

communication uh so it's even a silly thing that they do this but uh but yeah

thing that they do this but uh but yeah that's what they can do it's not tracing

that's what they can do it's not tracing the transaction they're just checking if

the transaction they're just checking if the pub key listed in the in the um in

the pub key listed in the in the um in the node in in the lightning invoice

the node in in the lightning invoice that you give them is on the ofac list

that you give them is on the ofac list or not uh it's a past fail

or not uh it's a past fail um so that's and that's what they say

um so that's and that's what they say that's why they need to say uh that the

that's why they need to say uh that the uh exchange is able to monitor their

uh exchange is able to monitor their transactions not the users's

transactions not the users's transactions they don't know where the

transactions they don't know where the where the funds are coming from on the

where the funds are coming from on the lightning Network they don't they aren't

lightning Network they don't they aren't able to trace lightning payments and

able to trace lightning payments and don't claim to be able to they can only

don't claim to be able to they can only give a pass fail when the exchange is

give a pass fail when the exchange is sending out a transaction to a lightning

sending out a transaction to a lightning invoice and say is the pub key listed in

invoice and say is the pub key listed in this uh in this invoice on the ofac list

this uh in this invoice on the ofac list so that's what they're

so that's what they're doing yeah I think it was useful to ask

doing yeah I think it was useful to ask because I guess someone from the chat is

because I guess someone from the chat is going to ask this anyway and put the

going to ask this anyway and put the link and say gotcha you know to analysis

link and say gotcha you know to analysis is on this so they must know much more

is on this so they must know much more than you're saying I have a gotcha uh

than you're saying I have a gotcha uh which is if you go if you go the reverse

which is if you go if you go the reverse Direction and say what does chainalysis

Direction and say what does chainalysis know about Monero in the video that I

know about Monero in the video that I mentioned earlier and that we're going

mentioned earlier and that we're going to put in the show notes actually I will

to put in the show notes actually I will send you the link right now so that I

send you the link right now so that I don't forget uh in this video they

don't forget uh in this video they specifically say at the end uh um you

specifically say at the end uh um you should not use our tool on your own you

should not use our tool on your own you should hire us you should hire us to run

should hire us you should hire us to run the tool for you we will do the the

the tool for you we will do the the Monero tracing for you and we will find

Monero tracing for you and we will find out where the TR where the funds uh were

out where the TR where the funds uh were came from and where they were sent so

came from and where they were sent so here's the here's the link to the video

here's the here's the link to the video it's in the last 30 seconds that he does

it's in the last 30 seconds that he does this in case you want to play it um but

this in case you want to play it um but Monero or chainalysis actively

Monero or chainalysis actively advertises that they have a Monero

advertises that they have a Monero tracing tool that can identify the

tracing tool that can identify the source of funds and where they flow on

source of funds and where they flow on the network they don't offer that for

the network they don't offer that for the lightning Network they just say we

the lightning Network they just say we only offer chainalysis kyt and that's

only offer chainalysis kyt and that's know your transaction not know your

know your transaction not know your customer's

customer's transaction is this to is there PB key

transaction is this to is there PB key on the ofac list or

on the ofac list or not that's not tracing the

transaction yeah I guess I'm going to put this in the description everyone can

put this in the description everyone can watch this and everyone should watch

watch this and everyone should watch this because you get to understand how

this because you get to understand how they operate I guess the reason why they

they operate I guess the reason why they wanted this to get removed and they did

wanted this to get removed and they did not want this to be publicly available

not want this to be publicly available and someone leaked it is that it reveals

and someone leaked it is that it reveals the way that they approach it and the

the way that they approach it and the way that they think about it it's sort

way that they think about it it's sort of a paper tiger in some regards like I

of a paper tiger in some regards like I think it was overblown when it came out

think it was overblown when it came out people said ha you know they know how to

people said ha you know they know how to De anonymize manur transactions but

De anonymize manur transactions but there's also there's always this caveat

there's also there's always this caveat of the user input error when there's

of the user input error when there's sending a transaction and they're using

sending a transaction and they're using the wrong tool or they're making some

the wrong tool or they're making some mistakes yeah the the you so what I find

mistakes yeah the the you so what I find really interesting in the in the from

really interesting in the in the from about like 30 minutes onward he shows

about like 30 minutes onward he shows their block Explorer he shows the block

their block Explorer he shows the block explorer that they use it's like a

explorer that they use it's like a custom Monero block Explorer they've

custom Monero block Explorer they've made with information gathered from like

made with information gathered from like fixed float and morph token and change

fixed float and morph token and change now and other exchanges that cooperate

now and other exchanges that cooperate with chainalysis they give them

with chainalysis they give them information about their transactions and

information about their transactions and then they can filter those out when

then they can filter those out when they're used as decoys they can say ah

they're used as decoys they can say ah they Ed they use a transaction that we

they Ed they use a transaction that we know came from um from

know came from um from uh change now as a decoy and so we can

uh change now as a decoy and so we can ask change now did you make this

ask change now did you make this transaction and if they say no then we

transaction and if they say no then we know that's a decoy and they can

know that's a decoy and they can eliminate it uh so they have all this

eliminate it uh so they have all this information that's like offchain data

information that's like offchain data that they use to eliminate decoys from

that they use to eliminate decoys from the Monero transactions but using that

the Monero transactions but using that data uh it's incredible how much

data uh it's incredible how much information they get they they go they

information they get they they go they go clicking around and they're like okay

go clicking around and they're like okay so the guy starts at this transaction

so the guy starts at this transaction started at I think it was morph token uh

started at I think it was morph token uh the morph token sent it to his Monero

the morph token sent it to his Monero address we can identify the change that

address we can identify the change that went back to morph token because they

went back to morph token because they told us this is our address we're

told us this is our address we're canident identify the real recipient

canident identify the real recipient right here then we watched for him to

right here then we watched for him to show up in the next transaction so he

show up in the next transaction so he clicks he clicks the address and it

clicks he clicks the address and it shows up in a the list of the uh all the

shows up in a the list of the uh all the transactions that it's been seen in on

transactions that it's been seen in on on the on Monero and he's like okay so

on the on Monero and he's like okay so we can see from here it showed up as a

we can see from here it showed up as a decoy and all these things but they were

decoy and all these things but they were able to identify that it was a decoy

able to identify that it was a decoy using their offc information and he's

using their offc information and he's like okay so here's the real transaction

like okay so here's the real transaction where he actually sent it and he sent it

where he actually sent it and he sent it into some he goes through a list like he

into some he goes through a list like he sent it to this uh place or he sent some

sent it to this uh place or he sent some of it to this place and then this is the

of it to this place and then this is the change he keeps picking to the change

change he keeps picking to the change eventually the person sent it to a

eventually the person sent it to a wallet I I assume a phone wallet and the

wallet I I assume a phone wallet and the reason I assume that is because the last

reason I assume that is because the last transaction that he shows in this video

transaction that he shows in this video is uh one that used a remote procedure

is uh one that used a remote procedure call it used a remote procedure call and

call it used a remote procedure call and the guy wasn't using a

the guy wasn't using a VPN uh to contact a chainalysis node and

VPN uh to contact a chainalysis node and he and he sent it to I think it was a

he and he sent it to I think it was a merchant he sent it he sent money to um

merchant he sent it he sent money to um some Merchant probably like but refill

some Merchant probably like but refill or I don't know if they take Monero some

or I don't know if they take Monero some Merchant that does Monero things and he

Merchant that does Monero things and he said okay so he sent the money to this

said okay so he sent the money to this Merchant to this Merchant and we were

Merchant to this Merchant and we were able to trace the transaction from morph

able to trace the transaction from morph token all the way to here but when he

token all the way to here but when he made this transaction he used uh he used

made this transaction he used uh he used like a he used the remote procedure call

like a he used the remote procedure call and he didn't use a VPN so we knew his

and he didn't use a VPN so we knew his IP address and we could trace that all

IP address and we could trace that all the way back to where he got the money

the way back to where he got the money from um so where he bought the Monero so

from um so where he bought the Monero so it's really impressive like they

it's really impressive like they actually do a full trace of a

actually do a full trace of a transaction showing all the steps they

transaction showing all the steps they do and how they eliminate the decoys um

do and how they eliminate the decoys um yeah like people will say it's overblown

yeah like people will say it's overblown they can't really trace an arrow but if

they can't really trace an arrow but if you watch the video they trace man Arrow

you watch the video they trace man Arrow that's what they do and then he

that's what they do and then he advertises like so if you want to do

advertises like so if you want to do this don't just buy the don't just buy

this don't just buy the don't just buy our block Explorer um hire us because we

our block Explorer um hire us because we know how we're the experts we have all

know how we're the experts we have all the offchain data and we know how to

the offchain data and we know how to actually do it so yeah you could they

actually do it so yeah you could they can they can and do and advertise if

can they can and do and advertise if they trace them an arrow but they don't

they trace them an arrow but they don't do it for lightning they don't they

do it for lightning they don't they don't even advertise that they can trace

don't even advertise that they can trace lightning yeah that's interesting

lightning yeah that's interesting interesting but to me it sounds a bit

interesting but to me it sounds a bit like the claims that they were making

like the claims that they were making with Wasabi or Samurai coin joints right

with Wasabi or Samurai coin joints right when it was mostly an address reused

when it was mostly an address reused that was the fault of user or sending to

that was the fault of user or sending to you know buying coins from exchanges

you know buying coins from exchanges coin joining and then sending to another

coin joining and then sending to another exchange and then saying you know we can

exchange and then saying you know we can actually de anonymize this but they

actually de anonymize this but they don't look at the part

don't look at the part that actually adds privacy they just

that actually adds privacy they just look at the outputs and see where they

look at the outputs and see where they go

go they the nice thing is if if the guy was

they the nice thing is if if the guy was using the lightning network instead of

using the lightning network instead of the nrow they wouldn't have a blockchain

the nrow they wouldn't have a blockchain to look at to start with because

to look at to start with because transactions are not published on the

transactions are not published on the lightning Network um so in order to get

lightning Network um so in order to get a transaction graph they would have to

a transaction graph they would have to subpoena every lightning node that might

subpoena every lightning node that might have been in in the route of the guy who

have been in in the route of the guy who they're you know trying to find out

they're you know trying to find out about and say you have you have to give

about and say you have you have to give us every information about every IP

us every information about every IP address that that connected to you the

address that that connected to you the using por or a VPN then just like with

using por or a VPN then just like with Monero didn't get any information from

Monero didn't get any information from about that but then the next thing is

about that but then the next thing is they don't see the sender so even if

they don't see the sender so even if they get all of the logs from the um

they get all of the logs from the um from the from routing nodes even if they

from the from routing nodes even if they were able to subpoena all of them and

were able to subpoena all of them and get all this information they still

get all this information they still wouldn't know the sender or the

wouldn't know the sender or the recipient because that's encrypted it's

recipient because that's encrypted it's not it doesn't show up in the routing

not it doesn't show up in the routing notes so good luck chain alysis good

notes so good luck chain alysis good luck trying to find him uh on Monero

luck trying to find him uh on Monero you've got a blockchain and you've got

you've got a blockchain and you've got offchain data that you can use to

offchain data that you can use to eliminate decoys uh you don't have that

eliminate decoys uh you don't have that on Lightning so do your best but yeah I

on Lightning so do your best but yeah I think it would have been safer if he was

think it would have been safer if he was using lightning than if he used an

using lightning than if he used an arrow yeah that's very useful

arrow yeah that's very useful information and I'm only saying this

information and I'm only saying this because I want to push myself to

because I want to push myself to actually do it so I'm I'm going to say

actually do it so I'm I'm going to say it in public I'm planning to do a

it in public I'm planning to do a conference about privacy here in verania

conference about privacy here in verania later this year maybe around Halloween

later this year maybe around Halloween and I would love to see you on stage I

and I would love to see you on stage I know that for you maybe six months means

know that for you maybe six months means a long time and you're going to move on

a long time and you're going to move on to something else and you're going to

to something else and you're going to have maybe different ideas that you come

have maybe different ideas that you come up with because it's very hard to keep

up with because it's very hard to keep up with what you're doing but I would

up with what you're doing but I would love to host you to have you on stage to

love to host you to have you on stage to talk about this stuff and reveal what

talk about this stuff and reveal what you can do with the lightning Network

you can do with the lightning Network what are the limitations of it what you

what are the limitations of it what you can do with Monero maybe you're going to

can do with Monero maybe you're going to have time to look into

have time to look into zash I'd love to I'm in let's let's make

zash I'd love to I'm in let's let's make it a thing so don't make plans for

it a thing so don't make plans for Halloween this

Halloween this year I think that's a good

year I think that's a good time I just need to find some sponsors

time I just need to find some sponsors or something but speaking of sponsor

or something but speaking of sponsor privacy in the dark conference I don't

privacy in the dark conference I don't know something like that some Halloween

know something like that some Halloween themed yeah that can be cool but I was

themed yeah that can be cool but I was also thinking I mean it's still in a

also thinking I mean it's still in a very nent phas I don't know what it's

very nent phas I don't know what it's going to turn out to be but I was also

going to turn out to be but I was also thinking of this approach where maybe

thinking of this approach where maybe you have privacy Advocates on one stage

you have privacy Advocates on one stage that's live streamed and then blockchain

that's live streamed and then blockchain analysis companies on the other stage on

analysis companies on the other stage on day one and they do their presentations

day one and they do their presentations where they say you know we have good

where they say you know we have good privacy but wait we can trace that and

privacy but wait we can trace that and then on the second day you actually have

then on the second day you actually have panels and you get them to debate and

panels and you get them to debate and you you get this confrontation where

you you get this confrontation where maybe some people like that maybe some

maybe some people like that maybe some don't I don't know I have to ask around

don't I don't know I have to ask around to see if there's any interest in this

to see if there's any interest in this but I haven't seen anything like this

but I haven't seen anything like this usually conferences are one-sided they

usually conferences are one-sided they are

are more bullish on something and they say

more bullish on something and they say you know our tool is great you should

you know our tool is great you should use this and that I don't know maybe I'm

use this and that I don't know maybe I'm just weird and I should stick to what

just weird and I should stick to what works as opposed to coming up with

works as opposed to coming up with whacky ideas two things um be careful

whacky ideas two things um be careful doing it around Halloween because that's

doing it around Halloween because that's also when there's a lot more

Spooks and the other thing second thing um when if uh full chain membership

um when if uh full chain membership proofs gets implemented from anarrow

proofs gets implemented from anarrow it's supposed to allow for something

it's supposed to allow for something called well an easier way to do

called well an easier way to do something called transaction chaining

something called transaction chaining and from the Monero people I've talked

and from the Monero people I've talked to uh it'll be a lot easier to build

to uh it'll be a lot easier to build payment a payment Channel network for

payment a payment Channel network for Monero

Monero um once once they have that so I'd

um once once they have that so I'd really like to see uh you know hopefully

really like to see uh you know hopefully we'll have you know that they say that

we'll have you know that they say that like this year we might it might be the

like this year we might it might be the year we get banero people get full chain

year we get banero people get full chain membership proofs I hope so and then

membership proofs I hope so and then somebody start working on making a

somebody start working on making a payment Channel network wouldn't it be

payment Channel network wouldn't it be cool to compare the Monero payment

cool to compare the Monero payment Channel network with the Bitcoin payment

Channel network with the Bitcoin payment Channel network and see which one has

Channel network and see which one has better

better privacy yeah that should be fun I guess

privacy yeah that should be fun I guess we could also get full chain membership

we could also get full chain membership proofs in

proofs in Bitcoin but I I don't think there's

Bitcoin but I I don't think there's going to be consensus for this because I

going to be consensus for this because I remember I was at Monero Topia last year

remember I was at Monero Topia last year in November in Mexico and they were

in November in Mexico and they were explaining the trade-offs saying that

explaining the trade-offs saying that it's going to be even less scalable with

it's going to be even less scalable with full chain membership proofs and

full chain membership proofs and transaction fees are going to go up so

transaction fees are going to go up so people should expect to pay more for

people should expect to pay more for their privacy but the consensus within

their privacy but the consensus within that Community is that privacy is most

that Community is that privacy is most important so they don't care about

important so they don't care about anything

else great um and could be get full chain membership proofs in Bitcoin um

chain membership proofs in Bitcoin um does encrypting the sender count in your

does encrypting the sender count in your in your

in your opinion well that would be very nice at

opinion well that would be very nice at least in relation to the miners because

least in relation to the miners because they should not be able to see what's in

they should not be able to see what's in the transaction you're going to

the transaction you're going to eliminate this situation where they can

eliminate this situation where they can censor or they can do whatever people

censor or they can do whatever people describe as

describe as me because if if you do I don't I don't

me because if if you do I don't I don't know that it's the exact same thing to

know that it's the exact same thing to say I encrypted the sender and therefore

say I encrypted the sender and therefore it's a full chain MERS shiper in fact I

it's a full chain MERS shiper in fact I think that's definitely not true but I

think that's definitely not true but I think they have the same effect which is

think they have the same effect which is uh if you have an encrypted blob anybody

uh if you have an encrypted blob anybody on the network could have created that

on the network could have created that blob so if that's just as good as um as

blob so if that's just as good as um as full chain membership proofs then

full chain membership proofs then remember on Lightning we do encrypt the

remember on Lightning we do encrypt the sender so do we already have full chain

sender so do we already have full chain membership proofs in Bitcoin I look

membership proofs in Bitcoin I look forward to uh hereby asking Luke Parker

forward to uh hereby asking Luke Parker to please write an article saying why

to please write an article saying why they're

they're different there's Arthur PG in the chat

different there's Arthur PG in the chat and he said said did I miss discussion

and he said said did I miss discussion of 140 billion usdt coming to lightning

of 140 billion usdt coming to lightning thanks for a fascinating guest is that

thanks for a fascinating guest is that coming to lightning I think it was

coming to lightning I think it was called Taro at one point or Tapo

called Taro at one point or Tapo assets I I'm not familiar did he say

assets I I'm not familiar did he say $140 billion dollars of specific number

$140 billion dollars of specific number it's not dollars it's usdt well yeah

it's not dollars it's usdt well yeah usdt lightning I'm going to Google that

usdt lightning I'm going to Google that see if I can find

see if I can find anything I see that one hour ago

anything I see that one hour ago coindesk proba article saying that it's

coindesk proba article saying that it's uh saying it's happening so that's news

uh saying it's happening so that's news to me uh well I I think stable coins are

to me uh well I I think stable coins are dumb um so I don't recommend uh

dumb um so I don't recommend uh recommend using them uh they they are

recommend using them uh they they are tied to a currency that inherently goes

tied to a currency that inherently goes down in value like it's designed to um

down in value like it's designed to um but uh yeah make do your own research

but uh yeah make do your own research and make your own

and make your own decisions yeah think about all of this

decisions yeah think about all of this cool Cipher Punk Tech that we built just

cool Cipher Punk Tech that we built just to be able to transact

dollars it's disappointing uhhuh it is it is

disappointing uhhuh it is it is disappointing but you know the the sad

disappointing but you know the the sad thing is um I think by volume tether not

thing is um I think by volume tether not Bitcoin but tether does the most um

Bitcoin but tether does the most um volume in all of cryptocurrency done uh

volume in all of cryptocurrency done uh and that's sad you know it's sad but uh

and that's sad you know it's sad but uh some somehow what I want to do part of

some somehow what I want to do part of my mission is to find all these people

my mission is to find all these people who love Heather um and persuade them

who love Heather um and persuade them that bitcoin's better than Heather so

that bitcoin's better than Heather so yeah that's that's all you can do say

yeah that's that's all you can do say well here's why I think bitcoin's

well here's why I think bitcoin's better we have a question in the chat

better we have a question in the chat about Monero how do nodes validate of

about Monero how do nodes validate of transaction if they cannot see

anything well they they can see some stuff um the only the only thing that's

stuff um the only the only thing that's actually encrypted in an nrow

actually encrypted in an nrow transaction is the amount uh the sender

transaction is the amount uh the sender list is obfuscation not encryption and

list is obfuscation not encryption and the recipient is um well it's just a PB

the recipient is um well it's just a PB key so it's it's not encrypted at all um

key so it's it's not encrypted at all um yeah so it's a one time PB key or they

yeah so it's a one time PB key or they call it one time even though it shows up

call it one time even though it shows up again as a sender later um yeah so so

again as a sender later um yeah so so what what can they know they can

what what can they know they can validate that information they can

validate that information they can validate that um that that that stuff is

validate that um that that that stuff is true so the only thing they have to uh

true so the only thing they have to uh validate that's like hard to validate is

validate that's like hard to validate is um is the encrypted part which is the

um is the encrypted part which is the amount by the way remember not the full

amount by the way remember not the full amount they leave the fee unencrypted um

amount they leave the fee unencrypted um and for that they have something called

and for that they have something called zero knowledge proofs and you'd have to

zero knowledge proofs and you'd have to get Luke or some someone who actually

get Luke or some someone who actually knows how zero knowledge proofs on here

knows how zero knowledge proofs on here to explain how they work but it has

to explain how they work but it has something to do with uh there's like a

something to do with uh there's like a formula in mathematics where you can

formula in mathematics where you can where you can prove that the sum of all

where you can prove that the sum of all X's is equal to this the I don't know

X's is equal to this the I don't know what the opposite of sum is that the if

what the opposite of sum is that the if you add together all the negatives and

you add together all the negatives and you get a large negative number that

you get a large negative number that large negative number uh you can prove

large negative number uh you can prove that it cancels out with the large

that it cancels out with the large positive number from the sum of all

positive number from the sum of all inputs and that's that's they use that

inputs and that's that's they use that algorithm um but the the cool thing is

algorithm um but the the cool thing is that it in in doing so you don't reveal

that it in in doing so you don't reveal the amounts um you you just know that

the amounts um you you just know that they sum to the correct value uh which

they sum to the correct value uh which is supposed to be zero in an Arrow's

is supposed to be zero in an Arrow's case you're supposed to prove that there

case you're supposed to prove that there are no extra um amounts like every all

are no extra um amounts like every all the amounts are account all the amounts

the amounts are account all the amounts from the inputs are accounted for even

from the inputs are accounted for even though you don't know what they are in

though you don't know what they are in the outputs uh so that's how they that's

the outputs uh so that's how they that's it has something to do with zero

it has something to do with zero knowledge proofs and since I don't know

knowledge proofs and since I don't know how they work I can't um I can't detail

how they work I can't um I can't detail more more than saying it's something to

more more than saying it's something to do with this mathematical

do with this mathematical algorithm what do you think about these

algorithm what do you think about these zero knowledge rollups that are coming

zero knowledge rollups that are coming to bitcoin including shielded client

to bitcoin including shielded client side validation that's something on

side validation that's something on which Robin Linus is working on and also

which Robin Linus is working on and also it's Jonas from blackstream and leaman I

it's Jonas from blackstream and leaman I I've had all three of them to promote

I've had all three of them to promote the paper at the time and there's also

the paper at the time and there's also the one by starkware there's

the one by starkware there's also what else is there the one by alpen

also what else is there the one by alpen labs

labs you think that they bring privacy or is

you think that they bring privacy or is it just about bringing ethereum

it just about bringing ethereum features uh the latter but that it it's

features uh the latter but that it it's so most of these people have connections

so most of these people have connections with the bit BM stuff that I uh and

with the bit BM stuff that I uh and that's why I kind of have some

that's why I kind of have some familiarity with it because I because I

familiarity with it because I because I was how do I restart I want to restart

was how do I restart I want to restart that sentence a lot of this a lot of the

that sentence a lot of this a lot of the companies who are building uh rollups on

companies who are building uh rollups on bitcoin have connections with the BBM

bitcoin have connections with the BBM community

community um

and the I I've always liked rollups from the when they first came out in ethereum

the when they first came out in ethereum I thought um this seems like a cool idea

I thought um this seems like a cool idea I'm still impressed with rollups I think

I'm still impressed with rollups I think I think they're pretty cool uh most of

I think they're pretty cool uh most of them seem to have uh a bridge model that

them seem to have uh a bridge model that or a Federated Bridge model to get from

or a Federated Bridge model to get from ethereum onto the rollup and I don't

ethereum onto the rollup and I don't think you need to do that on ethereum I

think you need to do that on ethereum I think there's I think there's better

think there's I think there's better ways to do it so I don't know why the

ways to do it so I don't know why the the ones I I imagine the ones that don't

the ones I I imagine the ones that don't use a Federated rollup are more

use a Federated rollup are more expensive and that's why they're less

expensive and that's why they're less popular um but rollup technology is I

popular um but rollup technology is I think it's cool it's it's like you all

think it's cool it's it's like you all all this activity is happening over on

all this activity is happening over on the side chain or on this rollup and

the side chain or on this rollup and then you only post um a small chunk of

then you only post um a small chunk of that data a proof of what happened onto

that data a proof of what happened onto the onto the baseland that's I think

the onto the baseland that's I think that's great um so I want I want stuff

that's great um so I want I want stuff like that for Bitcoin and I'm glad that

like that for Bitcoin and I'm glad that there are people trying to bring it over

there are people trying to bring it over to bitcoin uh when I've talked to these

to bitcoin uh when I've talked to these people I think it be really not easy I

people I think it be really not easy I think that we could have had a side CH

think that we could have had a side CH side chain based on BBM about six months

side chain based on BBM about six months after bit VM came out uh as soon like

after bit VM came out uh as soon like within a couple of weeks after bit VM

within a couple of weeks after bit VM came out somebody implemented shotu 56

came out somebody implemented shotu 56 and I think that's all you need to build

and I think that's all you need to build a side chain um I think you just you

a side chain um I think you just you just need to do shock 56 then make it

just need to do shock 56 then make it then make a a tree uh a what's it called

then make a a tree uh a what's it called a Merkel tree of all the people of all

a Merkel tree of all the people of all the addresses that have money on this on

the addresses that have money on this on this side chain and you you post the

this side chain and you you post the proof of it on bitcoin and use BBM to uh

proof of it on bitcoin and use BBM to uh validate that someone who's withdrawing

validate that someone who's withdrawing is really has a leaf in this treat I

is really has a leaf in this treat I think that's all you need to do like

think that's all you need to do like it's just a shot 256 and a and um uh and

it's just a shot 256 and a and um uh and a Merkel tree so I'm really surprised

a Merkel tree so I'm really surprised that we didn't have one six months after

that we didn't have one six months after BBM came out because I because I think I

BBM came out because I because I think I could do that as a hackathon project and

could do that as a hackathon project and raise a million dollars like I was

raise a million dollars like I was talking about earlier um but that does

talking about earlier um but that does so i' asked the BBM teams because

so i' asked the BBM teams because there's like 15 people working on 15

there's like 15 people working on 15 companies working on BBM now why they

companies working on BBM now why they haven't done this uh like done the easy

haven't done this uh like done the easy thing and just make a side chain using a

thing and just make a side chain using a Merkel Tree in in shter 56 and all of

Merkel Tree in in shter 56 and all of them said the same thing they said

them said the same thing they said because that's not what the investors

because that's not what the investors want the investors want ethereum they

want the investors want ethereum they they want us to have defi like ethereum

they want us to have defi like ethereum does and if we just do sh 56 Merkel tree

does and if we just do sh 56 Merkel tree it would only be useful for peer-to-peer

it would only be useful for peer-to-peer payments and not for you know escros and

payments and not for you know escros and whatever else they're doing on defi land

whatever else they're doing on defi land and so I'm just like upset with the

and so I'm just like upset with the whole bit BM ecosystem because they're

whole bit BM ecosystem because they're they're instead of doing what I think is

they're instead of doing what I think is the cool thing which is just make

the cool thing which is just make something that scales Bitcoin better and

something that scales Bitcoin better and and and do it uh they're going after

and and do it uh they're going after this whole ethereum stuff that I think

this whole ethereum stuff that I think is pointless and and unnecessary and

is pointless and and unnecessary and stupid

stupid so

so sad all these smart people chasing

sad all these smart people chasing ethereum yeah I don't know what to say

ethereum yeah I don't know what to say other than that well there are people

other than that well there are people calling this a trojan horse just like

calling this a trojan horse just like they call usdt at troan horse and

they call usdt at troan horse and supposedly the T in usdt stands for for

supposedly the T in usdt stands for for the trozen horse or at least that's what

the trozen horse or at least that's what they tell themselves when they look in

they tell themselves when they look in the

the mirror yeah

mirror yeah uh I yeah it's I I don't know it's

uh I yeah it's I I don't know it's really weird it's how much flexibility

really weird it's how much flexibility in Bitcoin scripting was unlocked by

in Bitcoin scripting was unlocked by Tapo and I don't think anybody at the

Tapo and I don't think anybody at the time knew that that you could do this

time knew that that you could do this stuff with Tapo uh yeah once bit once

stuff with Tapo uh yeah once bit once BBM came out I think the door was pretty

BBM came out I think the door was pretty much knocked open and and you can do

much knocked open and and you can do anything on bitcoin that you can do on

anything on bitcoin that you can do on any other chain because you can emulate

any other chain because you can emulate any other chain on bitcoin which is what

any other chain on bitcoin which is what these rollup rollup teams are doing

these rollup rollup teams are doing they're emulating

they're emulating ethereum so yeah it's kind of stupid

ethereum so yeah it's kind of stupid that they that that's the one they chose

that they that that's the one they chose to go for of all the blockchains why

to go for of all the blockchains why ethereum and and the answer is well

ethereum and and the answer is well that's what the investors wanted that's

that's what the investors wanted that's where that's where the money

where that's where the money is well there's a bit more to that

is well there's a bit more to that because there is sort of I mean I

because there is sort of I mean I remember for the last 8 years that there

remember for the last 8 years that there were attempts to build a better ethereum

were attempts to build a better ethereum it's just just that this one has most

it's just just that this one has most applications most contracts most

applications most contracts most developers and it's just easy to Port

developers and it's just easy to Port applications you don't have to reinvent

applications you don't have to reinvent the wheel even though the wheel is

the wheel even though the wheel is broken well I do like tornado cach uh so

broken well I do like tornado cach uh so there there's a few contracts on on

there there's a few contracts on on ethereum that I find really interesting

ethereum that I find really interesting and one of them is tornado cash so if

and one of them is tornado cash so if these um BDM

these um BDM teams succeed at making an ethereum

teams succeed at making an ethereum clone that you know settles on bitcoin

clone that you know settles on bitcoin uh at least I will take comfort in the

uh at least I will take comfort in the fact that I can that we have that we

fact that I can that we have that we have tornado cash now on bitcoin so

have tornado cash now on bitcoin so that'll be good or at least that settles

that'll be good or at least that settles to bitcoin how is tornado cash different

to bitcoin how is tornado cash different from a coin

from a coin join well it's it's a pool model so in a

join well it's it's a pool model so in a in a coin join you're using a

in a coin join you're using a transaction model where you have you

transaction model where you have you know let's say 15 people decide to do a

know let's say 15 people decide to do a coin join together they make a single

coin join together they make a single transaction where they list all all the

transaction where they list all all the outputs they want and they randomize

outputs they want and they randomize them and that that's great you get you

them and that that's great you get you get one private transaction in a pool

get one private transaction in a pool model you deposit coins into the pool uh

model you deposit coins into the pool uh and you you can leave them there like

and you you can leave them there like they just sit there in a in a Bitcoin or

they just sit there in a in a Bitcoin or in a ethereum address for however long

in a ethereum address for however long you're in the pool for uh and when you

you're in the pool for uh and when you decide to leave or when you decide to

decide to leave or when you decide to make a transaction you just deduct from

make a transaction you just deduct from your balance in the pool um but the the

your balance in the pool um but the the advantage of this is only you know what

advantage of this is only you know what your balance in the pool is you have to

your balance in the pool is you have to prove using zero knowledge proofs like

prove using zero knowledge proofs like like how um when does for the amounts

like how um when does for the amounts you have to prove that you have a

you have to prove that you have a balance in this pool and that the amount

balance in this pool and that the amount you're sending out is is less than your

you're sending out is is less than your current balance um but that's all you

current balance um but that's all you get like you don't prove which person in

get like you don't prove which person in the pool you are and uh and so that's

the pool you are and uh and so that's great like it's really wonderful um it's

great like it's really wonderful um it's it's like a it's like a constant coin

it's like a it's like a constant coin join instead of and it's also

join instead of and it's also non-interactive it's the other thing in

non-interactive it's the other thing in a coin join if you want to do a if you

a coin join if you want to do a if you want to do a constant coin join you can

want to do a constant coin join you can by just doing it in every every block

by just doing it in every every block doing you can do a join a coin join in

doing you can do a join a coin join in every block but it costs money um and

every block but it costs money um and it's interactive you have to keep a

it's interactive you have to keep a server or some wallet running on your

server or some wallet running on your desktop uh that's constantly joining

desktop uh that's constantly joining these these coin joints with tornado

these these coin joints with tornado cach it's non interactive you you put

cach it's non interactive you you put your money into the pool you turn off

your money into the pool you turn off your device you can even do it on a

your device you can even do it on a phone uh you walk away you come back a

phone uh you walk away you come back a month later and you just open it up and

month later and you just open it up and your money's still there uh because it

your money's still there uh because it can't be spent unless you have the proof

can't be spent unless you have the proof uh when you only the you of the proof so

uh when you only the you of the proof so then you then you withdraw well it's

then you then you withdraw well it's typically a withdrawal whenever you

typically a withdrawal whenever you spend um but you just you just send it

spend um but you just you just send it to wherever you want to send it and it

to wherever you want to send it and it works uh so I really like that model and

works uh so I really like that model and uh some of some of my re if if you guys

uh some of some of my re if if you guys want to look into this search my uh

want to look into this search my uh Twitter profile I've come I've recently

Twitter profile I've come I've recently come up with a way to do a coin pool on

come up with a way to do a coin pool on bitcoin uh that has a lot of the same

bitcoin uh that has a lot of the same properties as tornado cache so uh look

properties as tornado cache so uh look into that I I'm hoping to release a demo

into that I I'm hoping to release a demo video uh soon and I'm also going over

video uh soon and I'm also going over how to make it at Bitcoin Plus+ fipa so

how to make it at Bitcoin Plus+ fipa so if you go to uh BTC plus plus. deev the

if you go to uh BTC plus plus. deev the word plus is spelled out ptcp usplus

word plus is spelled out ptcp usplus s.dev you can go to you can register for

s.dev you can go to you can register for the conference in fla um Brazil where I

the conference in fla um Brazil where I will show how to do a coin pool on

will show how to do a coin pool on bitcoin because uh I figured out how to

bitcoin because uh I figured out how to do it and uh it's not as good as tornado

do it and uh it's not as good as tornado cach but it's still got a lot of cool

cach but it's still got a lot of cool privacy properties you should you should

privacy properties you should you should check it

check it out no I I just became excited about BTC

out no I I just became excited about BTC Plus+ I might come I don't know it it

Plus+ I might come I don't know it it depends on whether or not my girlfriend

depends on whether or not my girlfriend gets a Visa it's more difficult for her

gets a Visa it's more difficult for her but we'll see oh yeah cool cool yeah I I

but we'll see oh yeah cool cool yeah I I look forward to possibly seeing you

look forward to possibly seeing you there yeah I got invited by Lisa to

there yeah I got invited by Lisa to moderate something I'm not sure exactly

moderate something I'm not sure exactly what but that could be

what but that could be fun you did that answer your question

fun you did that answer your question though you said um how is how is tornado

though you said um how is how is tornado cash different from a coin join is it

cash different from a coin join is it okay so it's non interactive you can

okay so it's non interactive you can switch it

switch it off you just put your money in a pool

off you just put your money in a pool and I think that's really cool yeah me

and I think that's really cool yeah me too so if if these bit VM people uh get

too so if if these bit VM people uh get us that I'll be happy even though I

us that I'll be happy even though I won't be happy that they had to

won't be happy that they had to implement all of ethereum to do

it I I like you so much no homo anyway I like you too slight homo no I'm

anyway I like you too slight homo no I'm just kidding I'm gonna put the what's it

just kidding I'm gonna put the what's it called the shop fre

called the shop fre one shopster the shopster window on the

one shopster the shopster window on the screen because you're going to present

screen because you're going to present What's Happening Here There are some

What's Happening Here There are some listings this is sort of a dark net

listings this is sort of a dark net market right and there's stuff that's

market right and there's stuff that's being sold for

being sold for Bitcoin there's there's stuff that's

Bitcoin there's there's stuff that's being sold for Bitcoin so what this is

being sold for Bitcoin so what this is uh a while when when you are you

uh a while when when you are you familiar with well of course you're

familiar with well of course you're familiar with Noster you announced this

familiar with Noster you announced this H podcast on Noster Noster came out I

H podcast on Noster Noster came out I don't know four years ago or something

don't know four years ago or something three years ago and one of the

three years ago and one of the specifications that was quickly uh

specifications that was quickly uh created for making posts on Noster was

created for making posts on Noster was was classified ads so if you go to if

was classified ads so if you go to if you if anyone's a developer and you

you if anyone's a developer and you search for um Noster Noster

search for um Noster Noster implementation possibility 999 or nip 99

implementation possibility 999 or nip 99 uh it's classified ads and anyone can

uh it's classified ads and anyone can post to Noster relays uh you know a

post to Noster relays uh you know a listing of something that they have for

listing of something that they have for sale and you give it a you give it a

sale and you give it a you give it a title you give it a picture um you give

title you give it a picture um you give it a price and uh this this website this

it a price and uh this this website this shopster website just uh on on tour it

shopster website just uh on on tour it pulls down this data from a bunch of

pulls down this data from a bunch of Noster relays Noster relays and then

Noster relays Noster relays and then displays it in a pretty uh fashion um

displays it in a pretty uh fashion um and payments are made using the

and payments are made using the lightning Network so uh that's been not

lightning Network so uh that's been not quite baked into Noster but very closely

quite baked into Noster but very closely uh most of the early Noster developers

uh most of the early Noster developers including the creative Noster were also

including the creative Noster were also lightning developers there's like a lot

lightning developers there's like a lot of co-working that happened there and a

of co-working that happened there and a lot of the stuff that happens on Noster

lot of the stuff that happens on Noster is using the lightning Network including

is using the lightning Network including these classified ads so that's why this

these classified ads so that's why this particular DNM all it all it is doing is

particular DNM all it all it is doing is just holding classified ads from Noster

just holding classified ads from Noster and then displaying them uh and giving

and then displaying them uh and giving you a a a button for having items in

you a a a button for having items in your cart and purchasing them um but

your cart and purchasing them um but yeah to to me it qualifies as a dark net

yeah to to me it qualifies as a dark net market and if you scroll a little while

market and if you scroll a little while you can also see people so some prior

you can also see people so some prior examples that I've given of this people

examples that I've given of this people will say it's not a dark net Market

will say it's not a dark net Market unless there's drugs on it and I think

unless there's drugs on it and I think that's stupid because um there's a lot

that's stupid because um there's a lot of stuff on darket markets not just

of stuff on darket markets not just drugs but um yeah it's some people are

drugs but um yeah it's some people are on shopster selling drugs which is uh a

on shopster selling drugs which is uh a thing um don't do drugs but uh yeah

thing um don't do drugs but uh yeah they're doing it so there's a there is a

they're doing it so there's a there is a darket market that has drugs and it uses

darket market that has drugs and it uses a lighting Network for payments and this

a lighting Network for payments and this is this is it this is this is the one

is this is it this is this is the one that I know

that I know of oh you can buy Hardware wallets but I

of oh you can buy Hardware wallets but I would never buy a hardware wallet from

would never buy a hardware wallet from these guys I saw that there's oh there's

these guys I saw that there's oh there's a banana art there's an Atari 2600 with

a banana art there's an Atari 2600 with a controller that looks tempting

a controller that looks tempting yeah another thing to be aware of uh

yeah another thing to be aware of uh there's no escrow on these things you

there's no escrow on these things you just send the money directly you

just send the money directly you effectively it's not it's not the same

effectively it's not it's not the same as a zap but it's it's similar to zaps

as a zap but it's it's similar to zaps uh they have their own you way of doing

uh they have their own you way of doing lightning payments uh but you they goes

lightning payments uh but you they goes directly to the recipient um there's no

directly to the recipient um there's no there's no um like custodian well

there's no um like custodian well actually they I think most of them are

actually they I think most of them are using ecash mint but yeah but it depends

using ecash mint but yeah but it depends on which mint you're using because you

on which mint you're using because you can run your own mint most I assume most

can run your own mint most I assume most of this stuff is because is custodi but

of this stuff is because is custodi but the custodial services that are using it

the custodial services that are using it do not offer escra services uh and

do not offer escra services uh and consequently if you buy you know a

consequently if you buy you know a banana tape to a wall and he and then

banana tape to a wall and he and then you send him the money and he doesn't

you send him the money and he doesn't send you a banana tape to a wall all you

send you a banana tape to a wall all you can do is leave him a bad review you

can do is leave him a bad review you can't you don't get your money back

can't you don't get your money back um so be aware of that oh I found the

um so be aware of that oh I found the one that I found the listing that has uh

one that I found the listing that has uh that has that has drugs I will post it

that has that has drugs I will post it in your uh in your telegram so you can

in your uh in your telegram so you can see under which category is it I don't

see under which category is it I don't know let me check

know let me check F I just I just scrolled until I found

F I just I just scrolled until I found it uh it is how do you see the

it uh it is how do you see the categories I

categories I don't it do the the listing page doesn't

don't it do the the listing page doesn't show what what categories it has um I

show what what categories it has um I could probably find out let me let me

could probably find out let me let me look it up by means of um maybe it's

look it up by means of um maybe it's miscellaneous it could be I think I

miscellaneous it could be I think I think the categories are listed are in

think the categories are listed are in the listing from Noster so I could look

the listing from Noster so I could look it up that way but I'll have to refresh

it up that way but I'll have to refresh the page

the page and get all L thingss that mentioned

and get all L thingss that mentioned this okay got that here's the response

this okay got that here's the response okay take that back this this is a lot

okay take that back this this is a lot like xamar

like xamar Bazaar there you go he's uh he's

Bazaar there you go he's uh he's learning he's learning stuff

learning he's learning stuff um no I'm

um no I'm not maybe I can get it from another

not maybe I can get it from another relay I would have to look into it to

relay I would have to look into it to find out what category it's under but I

find out what category it's under but I just sent you the L fine I pasted the

just sent you the L fine I pasted the link it's just that tour is being tour

link it's just that tour is being tour yeah I need to search for a new circuit

yeah I need to search for a new circuit make it load come on I believe in

loading uh well can can you tell me what it's called and I can search for

it's called and I can search for it uh yeah I uh or I could a second ago

it uh yeah I uh or I could a second ago I think it uh it it had the the word

I think it uh it it had the the word hash in

hash in it I don't know I SC for like three

it I don't know I SC for like three minutes CH hash rounds by Cy they look

minutes CH hash rounds by Cy they look like greasy's pieces and apparently they

like greasy's pieces and apparently they have marijuana in them so that's a

have marijuana in them so that's a thing I don't know I'm I'm on a diet you

thing I don't know I'm I'm on a diet you seem to be going to the gym

seem to be going to the gym too yeah and I also don't do drugs so me

neither there's a guy selling homemade pickup ly and I had to look it up

pickup ly and I had to look it up because I like that's probably a drug

because I like that's probably a drug and no it's not it's just a

and no it's not it's just a plant but this guy's also selling his

plant but this guy's also selling his Canon

camera there you go so yeah it's like XMR bizarre but it's on tour well the

XMR bizarre but it's on tour well the this instance is on tour there's another

this instance is on tour there's another instance uh that's not on tour so you

instance uh that's not on tour so you can also brow it on clear

can also brow it on clear neck uh it's also built into amethyst if

neck uh it's also built into amethyst if you have the amethyst app on Android um

you have the amethyst app on Android um this you know it it also displays

this you know it it also displays classified ads from across the Noster

classified ads from across the Noster verse so you can do that

verse so you can do that too so shopster check it out it's pretty

too so shopster check it out it's pretty cool you can find Google pixel phones a

cool you can find Google pixel phones a Kindle paper white one or 50 Euro not

Kindle paper white one or 50 Euro not bad I'm thinking about I'm thinking

bad I'm thinking about I'm thinking about making something uh to show off

about making something uh to show off how how you can use lightning on darket

how how you can use lightning on darket markets but my darket market would only

markets but my darket market would only sell Bibles so I was going to call it

sell Bibles so I was going to call it hark net Market because the angels in

hark net Market because the angels in the Bible always say hark they say hark

the Bible always say hark they say hark yeah it means listen in in Old English

yeah it means listen in in Old English it's like listen then they say something

it's like listen then they say something um

um hark can buy iPhone iPhone 15 Pro Max

hark can buy iPhone iPhone 15 Pro Max with 1 million Satoshi from Spain how

with 1 million Satoshi from Spain how much is that in today's money it's like

,000 does it look worth $1,000 dollar to you not

you not really there you go maybe I would pay

really there you go maybe I would pay 800 but I'm not sure when the listing

800 but I'm not sure when the listing was made and what the price was that's

was made and what the price was that's part of the problem when you denominate

part of the problem when you denominate and

and Bitcoin it becomes more expensive and

Bitcoin it becomes more expensive and gets out of

gets out of control you can always just uh you can

control you can always just uh you can edit your listings these are all

edit your listings these are all replaceable Noster events so you can

replaceable Noster events so you can edit it change the price and then repost

edit it change the price and then repost it um you can also denominate in US

it um you can also denominate in US Dollars on uh on shopster listings or in

Dollars on uh on shopster listings or in any other currency but I think I met the

any other currency but I think I met the shopster guys in Nashville they had a

shopster guys in Nashville they had a booth it's just that I was ignorant I

booth it's just that I was ignorant I did not realize it for some reason it

did not realize it for some reason it just went over my head I actually won

just went over my head I actually won something in the raffle wait I I think I

something in the raffle wait I I think I have it

have it here I convinced the shopster guys to

here I convinced the shopster guys to make a significant privacy Improvement

make a significant privacy Improvement um which is originally on shopster um

um which is originally on shopster um you had to sign in in order to buy stuff

you had to sign in in order to buy stuff uh cool a flipper zero you want to tell

uh cool a flipper zero you want to tell us about your flipper zero I've never

us about your flipper zero I've never used it really but I do have

used it really but I do have it there you go and I think it's illegal

it there you go and I think it's illegal in some countries I don't know about

in some countries I don't know about that I just got it cool from their

that I just got it cool from their contest um so originally on shop stre

contest um so originally on shop stre you had to sign in in order to buy stuff

you had to sign in in order to buy stuff so if if you clicked you know buy now or

so if if you clicked you know buy now or you added something to your card it

you added something to your card it would be like you have to log in to do

would be like you have to log in to do that behavior and that stupid and I told

that behavior and that stupid and I told them why do you make the buyer log in

them why do you make the buyer log in he's all he's going to do is send a

he's all he's going to do is send a message to the uh to the uh to the

message to the uh to the uh to the seller containing where to send the item

seller containing where to send the item and his money you could just spin up a

and his money you could just spin up a public a public key for him you know in

public a public key for him you know in the background and uh send the message

the background and uh send the message using that public key and then he

using that public key and then he wouldn't have to give away his real

wouldn't have to give away his real identity or his you know Noster identity

identity or his you know Noster identity to use to use the shop and so they

to use to use the shop and so they implemented that and a few months later

implemented that and a few months later shopster came out again and now you

shopster came out again and now you don't need to sign in in order to buy

don't need to sign in in order to buy stuff which I think is a big privacy

stuff which I think is a big privacy Improvement so yay for

privacy yeah there's a lot of cool stuff happening and I'm not even aware of it

happening and I'm not even aware of it thank you for telling me about this oh

thank you for telling me about this oh there there's someone selling a

there there's someone selling a Lambo I think it has no price it has no

Lambo I think it has no price it has no details just one picture don't trust

details just one picture don't trust verify yeah he's probably not selling a

verify yeah he's probably not selling a Lambo and it's silver like who would buy

Lambo and it's silver like who would buy silver silver Lambo you got to buy it

silver silver Lambo you got to buy it orange if you're going to spend Bitcoin

orange if you're going to spend Bitcoin on

on it right I mean I don't think I'll ever

it right I mean I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I'm like oh okay

get to the point where I'm like oh okay let's buy Lambo but who knows

let's buy Lambo but who knows uh I bought a Monte Carlo once does that

uh I bought a Monte Carlo once does that does that count as getting to that point

does that count as getting to that point a what a Monte Carlo what's a Monte

a what a Monte Carlo what's a Monte Carlo it's a muscle car it looks looks

Carlo it's a muscle car it looks looks cool oh let me look that up Monte Carlo

cool oh let me look that up Monte Carlo car

car is it one word or two words oh chevret

is it one word or two words oh chevret Monto Carlo

Monto Carlo okay yeah it's two

words so I got one of those once and I felt cool I was like yeah I've got a

felt cool I was like yeah I've got a cool looking

cool looking car you don't find something like this

car you don't find something like this in Europe it's not environmental

in Europe it's not environmental enough and people don't like it they

enough and people don't like it they don't import something like this it was

don't import something like this it was probably never sold here anyway but it's

probably never sold here anyway but it's named after a city there

named after a city there sure I don't think Paris Hilton was born

sure I don't think Paris Hilton was born in Europe and she's named after a city

in Europe and she's named after a city too but you guys have what's it called

too but you guys have what's it called maretti or whatever the the the car

maretti or whatever the the the car that's made by the fancy Italian

that's made by the fancy Italian guy Ferrari you guys have Ferrari and

guy Ferrari you guys have Ferrari and Pagani and even fancier stuff and

Pagani and even fancier stuff and Lamborghini yeah like you're saying you

Lamborghini yeah like you're saying you don't have you don't no one would import

don't have you don't no one would import a fancy car well you don't need to

a fancy car well you don't need to import him because you make them right

import him because you make them right there yeah but this is a Chevy I think

there yeah but this is a Chevy I think it's much more affordable than a Ferrari

it's much more affordable than a Ferrari or a

or a Porsche well it was very affordable I

Porsche well it was very affordable I can admit to that I felt rich though

can admit to that I felt rich though because it looks

because it looks cool yeah it's a muscle car so what what

cool yeah it's a muscle car so what what was the gas mileage on this

was the gas mileage on this one uh 22 miles per gallon well but

one uh 22 miles per gallon well but that's I I have to convert that to

that's I I have to convert that to metric for you MPG to what is it uh k PM

metric for you MPG to what is it uh k PM I think is what you guys okay let me

I think is what you guys okay let me liters per kilometer

liters per kilometer yeah liters per 100

yeah liters per 100 kilm that's how we measure uh 10 10.7

kilm that's how we measure uh 10 10.7 lers per 100

lers per 100 kilometers

kilometers 10.7 that's what the internet tells me

10.7 that's what the internet tells me I've seen much worse

I've seen much worse honestly I expected that given that it's

honestly I expected that given that it's a muscle car to do like 15

a muscle car to do like 15 20 yeah well it was a muscle car for

20 yeah well it was a muscle car for Mass adoption so they throttled the

Mass adoption so they throttled the engine speed on it they put a

engine speed on it they put a six-cylinder engine in there and then if

six-cylinder engine in there and then if you revved it it would just it would

you revved it it would just it would just like cap at a certain point you

just like cap at a certain point you couldn't you couldn't R past

couldn't you couldn't R past that seems like you had a pretty wild

that seems like you had a pretty wild youth

youth man did the girls like

man did the girls like it uh I never I never

it uh I never I never asked you don't have to ask you just

asked you don't have to ask you just know well they didn't tell me then

know well they didn't tell me then oh that's good if there were at least

oh that's good if there were at least girls and they never mentioned

girls and they never mentioned it that's

it that's good I got to mention two more sponsors

good I got to mention two more sponsors and then I'll ask you more questions

and then I'll ask you more questions about lightning Network and

about lightning Network and privacy so check out no ones they

privacy so check out no ones they recently got hacked that's a good way to

recently got hacked that's a good way to introduce them they lost some salana

introduce them they lost some salana from their bridge and they're going to

from their bridge and they're going to make the customers even and the message

make the customers even and the message from them actually is to not keep your

from them actually is to not keep your coins on exchanges unless you're

coins on exchanges unless you're planning to immediately exchange that

planning to immediately exchange that but what no one is is this peer-to-peer

but what no one is is this peer-to-peer Marketplace that is trying to empower

Marketplace that is trying to empower people from what rusf the CEO calls the

people from what rusf the CEO calls the global sou

global sou and I think they do that mostly with

and I think they do that mostly with gift cards because these are most liquid

gift cards because these are most liquid it's what everyone wants they're buying

it's what everyone wants they're buying them they everyone gets a cut and if you

them they everyone gets a cut and if you want to participate in this economy

want to participate in this economy check out no one's

check out no one's I think it also started out it's

I think it also started out it's interesting because it started out as

interesting because it started out as Civ kit which was built on

Civ kit which was built on noer and now it's a standalone

Marketplace and there's there's also huddling doc which is a service from

huddling doc which is a service from Switzerland they help you with self-

Switzerland they help you with self- custody if you have a lot of Bitcoin and

custody if you have a lot of Bitcoin and have no idea how to manage it in order

have no idea how to manage it in order to avoid $5 rent to tax or you're part

to avoid $5 rent to tax or you're part of a company that's planning to buy

of a company that's planning to buy Bitcoin and you don't know how to manage

Bitcoin and you don't know how to manage the setup to have a quorum and maybe to

the setup to have a quorum and maybe to avoid having an annoying CTO stealing

avoid having an annoying CTO stealing everything then you can contact these

everything then you can contact these guys and they're going to provide all

guys and they're going to provide all the consultation and all of the good

the consultation and all of the good advice about how you can set up how or

advice about how you can set up how or whether or not you should be using

whether or not you should be using Hardware wallets how you should use

Hardware wallets how you should use multisig and all of that so check out

multisig and all of that so check out hl. CH and recently they also added a

hl. CH and recently they also added a service for coin recovery so if lost

service for coin recovery so if lost part of your seed phrase they might be

part of your seed phrase they might be able to brute force that or if you give

able to brute force that or if you give them some details they might help you

them some details they might help you recover your coins of course there's a

recover your coins of course there's a cut that they're going to take for that

cut that they're going to take for that it will not be a free service but I

it will not be a free service but I guess it's better than losing coins

guess it's better than losing coins forever so check out hen.

forever so check out hen. CH anyway let's talk about exciting

CH anyway let's talk about exciting lightning stuff because it seems like

lightning stuff because it seems like what's really news these days is that

what's really news these days is that they're getting usdt on it like like I

they're getting usdt on it like like I remember initially that lightning was

remember initially that lightning was going to beat this bridge across

going to beat this bridge across blockchains it was going to enable

blockchains it was going to enable Atomic swaps it was going to make

Atomic swaps it was going to make exchanges obsolete it was going to have

exchanges obsolete it was going to have much better privacy what happened to

much better privacy what happened to that uh it's um well it's not entirely

that uh it's um well it's not entirely false there are two other like root

false there are two other like root stock uses it and so does uh bolts

stock uses it and so does uh bolts exchange or I mean so does liquid and

exchange or I mean so does liquid and you can use bolts exchange to to swap

you can use bolts exchange to to swap between those places using uh using the

between those places using uh using the lighting Network so it is it is bridging

lighting Network so it is it is bridging between three different chains Bitcoin

between three different chains Bitcoin liquid and root stock um I so there's

liquid and root stock um I so there's that uh the other thing is it's going to

that uh the other thing is it's going to kill exchanges um well uh I guess still

kill exchanges um well uh I guess still in progress uh there's one there's a

in progress uh there's one there's a there's two exchanges that use lightning

there's two exchanges that use lightning now or um I mean two exchange killers

now or um I mean two exchange killers that use lightning Robo sets and bis uh

that use lightning Robo sets and bis uh so can you can do your Fiat on and off

so can you can do your Fiat on and off ramping through those and use a lighting

ramping through those and use a lighting network uh but I guess you're you're not

network uh but I guess you're you're not like even if I give you examples of the

like even if I give you examples of the things you described being things I

things you described being things I think you're wondering why aren't they

think you're wondering why aren't they popular um is that is that what you're

popular um is that is that what you're wondering or it's not just popularity

wondering or it's not just popularity but also investing and building at least

but also investing and building at least usable applications you know because

usable applications you know because it's still pretty complicated and

it's still pretty complicated and if it's not complicated you have to use

if it's not complicated you have to use services like bolts that take a cut and

services like bolts that take a cut and that that was not the purpose of it

that that was not the purpose of it right it was supposed to be easy for you

right it was supposed to be easy for you to swap

to swap assets yeah um well I I think Robos sets

assets yeah um well I I think Robos sets is easy

is easy so give that a try uh you can swap

so give that a try uh you can swap assets using uh using Robos sets and I

assets using uh using Robos sets and I think it's really easy um bisque is

think it's really easy um bisque is bisque also has lighning but I don't

bisque also has lighning but I don't think it's as easy I have not had a

think it's as easy I have not had a successful lightning trade on bis since

successful lightning trade on bis since they added it um but good on you for for

they added it um but good on you for for adding it bisque uh do it better I guess

adding it bisque uh do it better I guess uh Robo set's got it figured out um yeah

uh Robo set's got it figured out um yeah I don't I don't know I I guess I think

I don't I don't know I I guess I think that most people most people don't care

that most people most people don't care about their privacy until they get

about their privacy until they get burned um and that's when they started

burned um and that's when they started caring so I think that as long as it is

caring so I think that as long as it is easier to uh go on you know Kraken or

easier to uh go on you know Kraken or coinbase or whatever and get your

coinbase or whatever and get your Bitcoins there people aren't going to

Bitcoins there people aren't going to use the uh the the the people aren't

use the uh the the the people aren't going to use private Solutions if

going to use private Solutions if they're not as easy except if they've

they're not as easy except if they've been burnt like the people who do are

been burnt like the people who do are you know people who either got sored for

you know people who either got sored for an exchange somehow or you know they're

an exchange somehow or you know they're like you and me or I me anyway who just

like you and me or I me anyway who just think it's cool so I do it anyway

think it's cool so I do it anyway um yeah uh but there's just not many

um yeah uh but there's just not many people like that there's not many people

people like that there's not many people who particularly care about their

who particularly care about their privacy and uh and so you don't you

privacy and uh and so you don't you don't see a lot of people going through

don't see a lot of people going through extra trck Hoops in order to do

extra trck Hoops in order to do something privately I don't know what to

something privately I don't know what to say about it other than it's sad and I

say about it other than it's sad and I try to change that by encouraging people

try to change that by encouraging people to use the to use stuff like to use

to use the to use stuff like to use roboat

specifically yeah

yeah u i I just want to mention this I'm not

u i I just want to mention this I'm not sure if it's legally advisable or

sure if it's legally advisable or something but when I sold my Bitcoin to

something but when I sold my Bitcoin to buy the car I decided to do it by the

buy the car I decided to do it by the book so I kyc to Kraken I went for every

book so I kyc to Kraken I went for every step I sold to my bank account I

step I sold to my bank account I reported to my bank account and now they

reported to my bank account and now they want to shut down my account potentially

want to shut down my account potentially and they want information that I don't

and they want information that I don't have like where did I get the Bitcoin

have like where did I get the Bitcoin from and this is a requirement that

from and this is a requirement that entered part of a y regulation that

entered part of a y regulation that started this year and when I bought the

started this year and when I bought the Bitcoin 8 years ago there was no such

Bitcoin 8 years ago there was no such regulation it's really stupid and I

regulation it's really stupid and I didn't buy it from an exchange that's

didn't buy it from an exchange that's kyc so I can't prove anything I could I

kyc so I can't prove anything I could I could also mine it or get it as a gift

could also mine it or get it as a gift or donation it's very hard to prove

or donation it's very hard to prove anything but I wanted to do everything

anything but I wanted to do everything by the book but if I maintained my

by the book but if I maintained my Cypher Punk mindset and I just sold it

Cypher Punk mindset and I just sold it on bisque or I met someone on vexel and

on bisque or I met someone on vexel and I got a m a bag of money and then I went

I got a m a bag of money and then I went to the bank and deposited this to the

to the bank and deposited this to the bank and told them you know I'm a male

bank and told them you know I'm a male prostitute I'm an only fans model

prostitute I'm an only fans model I I I don't know I sleep with your

I I I don't know I sleep with your section of the video exactly I I sleep

section of the video exactly I I sleep with your bank's manager what can you do

with your bank's manager what can you do I I got paid hush money or something

I I got paid hush money or something they would be like okay fine I would

they would be like okay fine I would tell them you know I play poker with

tell them you know I play poker with rich people they would just shog it off

rich people they would just shog it off and say yeah that's fine it doesn't

and say yeah that's fine it doesn't matter you can deposit into the bank but

matter you can deposit into the bank but since my transaction was associated with

since my transaction was associated with Kraken they asked me all sorts of

Kraken they asked me all sorts of questions and also Kraken were [ __ ]

questions and also Kraken were [ __ ] too they ask me a lot of questions which

too they ask me a lot of questions which I'm not going to answer just [ __ ] them

I'm not going to answer just [ __ ] them let let them close my

account yeah uh I do you need if why would you

uh I do you need if why would you deposit the if you got a bag of money

deposit the if you got a bag of money from vexel from someone on vexel why

from vexel from someone on vexel why would you deposit it at the bank why not

would you deposit it at the bank why not walk over directly over to the guy who

walk over directly over to the guy who has the car and say Here's your $100,000

has the car and say Here's your $100,000 or whatever it is because it was much

or whatever it is because it was much more than a oh you said $100,000 now it

more than a oh you said $100,000 now it was much cheaper than that but in

was much cheaper than that but in Romania which is part of the European

Romania which is part of the European Union we have a limit for € 2,000 so

Union we have a limit for € 2,000 so anything above 2,000 EUR has to go for a

anything above 2,000 EUR has to go for a bank the guy if he sees a bag of money

bank the guy if he sees a bag of money who would he would never accept that

who would he would never accept that he's gonna ask me go to a

he's gonna ask me go to a [Music]

[Music] bank I recommend finding a new country

bank I recommend finding a new country that one sounds like it has terrible

that one sounds like it has terrible laws for financial it really does like

laws for financial it really does like if I want to buy a laptop that's more

if I want to buy a laptop that's more expensive than 2,000 Euro and I save

expensive than 2,000 Euro and I save every month for two years let's say I

every month for two years let's say I save 100 euro for two years that's 2,400

save 100 euro for two years that's 2,400 I still have to put that in a bank if I

I still have to put that in a bank if I want to buy what I

want to buy what I want well there's 180 some there like

want well there's 180 some there like 205 countries I think at last count by

205 countries I think at last count by the un uh so pick one of those and maybe

the un uh so pick one of those and maybe one of the ones that doesn't make you do

one of the ones that doesn't make you do that and the US you can buy cars for

that and the US you can buy cars for cash you can also do that here if it's

cash you can also do that here if it's less than 2,000 Euro

less than 2,000 Euro that sounded like I was saying go to the

that sounded like I was saying go to the US I don't think you should go to the US

US I don't think you should go to the US the US has other what laws that are

the US has other what laws that are really bad but at least they can do that

really bad but at least they can do that one that's a

one that's a thing I don't know how long this is

thing I don't know how long this is going to last it just feels like it

going to last it just feels like it became more

became more intrusive I mean I I'm a big fan of the

intrusive I mean I I'm a big fan of the open market of the European Union I'm a

open market of the European Union I'm a big fan of countries collaborating but

big fan of countries collaborating but at this point just having these

at this point just having these regulations that come from Brussels and

regulations that come from Brussels and they they're not

they they're not I don't know I I'm not sure if they're

I don't know I I'm not sure if they're Justified maybe that they concern

Justified maybe that they concern problem problems that they have in

problem problems that they have in Brussels and they're out of touch with

Brussels and they're out of touch with the reality somewhere else it's really

the reality somewhere else it's really messed up like getting an email from my

messed up like getting an email from my bank I've been their customer since I

bank I've been their customer since I was 16 years old and they said you know

was 16 years old and they said you know we want to check if you're participating

we want to check if you're participating in money laundering or terrorist

in money laundering or terrorist financing and I was like really you you

financing and I was like really you you really let that part in when you send me

really let that part in when you send me that email

that email like I don't know it it sucks and I try

like I don't know it it sucks and I try to do everything by the book and I try

to do everything by the book and I try to be as transparent as possible and if

to be as transparent as possible and if I wasn't and I lied to them it would be

I wasn't and I lied to them it would be much better and that that's what is

much better and that that's what is really ironic about the

situation um well see it's leaving is always an

well see it's leaving is always an option so that's my that's my uh vote my

option so that's my that's my uh vote my if if you wanted if you ask for advice

if if you wanted if you ask for advice which you didn't I would tell you

which you didn't I would tell you leave how do you manage it

leave how do you manage it like they legends about yourself that

like they legends about yourself that you live in a tent or something and you

you live in a tent or something and you just travel around the world and never

just travel around the world and never stay for longer than a week

stay for longer than a week anywhere well I did live in a tent for

anywhere well I did live in a tent for uh a year I think I lived in a tent for

uh a year I think I lived in a tent for a year um but I'm not living in a tent

a year um but I'm not living in a tent now I'm living at a hostel and I've been

now I'm living at a hostel and I've been in guadalahara Mexico for uh since July

in guadalahara Mexico for uh since July however many months that is so of and on

however many months that is so of and on I travel I go I still travel all over

I travel I go I still travel all over the place to bitcoin conferences and

the place to bitcoin conferences and stuff so I'm often gone for weeks at a

stuff so I'm often gone for weeks at a time but I keep coming back to guara and

time but I keep coming back to guara and I really like it here so uh you should

I really like it here so uh you should you should come to guara it's great I

you should come to guara it's great I should learn

should learn Spanish yeah I don't speak it very well

Spanish yeah I don't speak it very well either but uh you can get

either but uh you can get by coming back to the topic of lightning

by coming back to the topic of lightning there's something I really wanted to ask

there's something I really wanted to ask you but forgot you have lots of

you but forgot you have lots of implementation

implementation maybe not lots of them maybe a handful

maybe not lots of them maybe a handful you have L&D which is the most popular

you have L&D which is the most popular you have core lightning which was

you have core lightning which was supposed to be big but it never took off

supposed to be big but it never took off you have the one by async that's called

you have the one by async that's called eclair and I think that one is being

eclair and I think that one is being used by Phoenix for their wallet you

used by Phoenix for their wallet you have one by electrum which I think is

have one by electrum which I think is remotely based on async implementation

remotely based on async implementation and you also have LDK which is lightning

and you also have LDK which is lightning development kit now I'm not sure how you

development kit now I'm not sure how you used that one is but are there any

used that one is but are there any differences in them in terms of privacy

differences in them in terms of privacy because that's the topic that we are

because that's the topic that we are tackling in this

tackling in this episode that's a good question I've

episode that's a good question I've never thought about it uh about

never thought about it uh about different privacy implications of

different privacy implications of different

different ones uh the only possibly useful thought

ones uh the only possibly useful thought I have on that is uh the guys from muty

I have on that is uh the guys from muty wallet were very focused on building a

wallet were very focused on building a privacy first lightning wallet and they

privacy first lightning wallet and they used LD K so I don't know if they did

used LD K so I don't know if they did that just because they're R Developers

that just because they're R Developers actually just probably why they did is

actually just probably why they did is because they're R Developers and it's

because they're R Developers and it's written in Rust um but it might have had

written in Rust um but it might have had a it might have been because they were

a it might have been because they were like this one's the best for privacy I

like this one's the best for privacy I don't know you'd have to ask them

don't know you'd have to ask them because I I really I don't know which

because I I really I don't know which one's the best for privacy um I think of

one's the best for privacy um I think of those a different thing that that is not

those a different thing that that is not the question at all is which one's the

the question at all is which one's the easiest to use and I think it's electrum

easiest to use and I think it's electrum because with electrum you go to

because with electrum you go to elect.org and you click download and you

elect.org and you click download and you get something that looks like an

get something that looks like an application that you can use and with

application that you can use and with the other ones if you they you don't

the other ones if you they you don't they don't even have websites you have

they don't even have websites you have to go to like their

githubsign the binaries and then know what to do with the binary um so yeah

what to do with the binary um so yeah electrum is the only one that is just

electrum is the only one that is just like you you double click the icon and a

like you you double click the icon and a lightning wallet pops up and it's got a

lightning wallet pops up and it's got a full implementation of the lightning

full implementation of the lightning Network in there so I really like that

Network in there so I really like that one yeah and Thomas is so proud of

one yeah and Thomas is so proud of it I've met him a couple of times you

it I've met him a couple of times you said you think it's based on async I

said you think it's based on async I thought he wrote the entire thing in

thought he wrote the entire thing in Python from scratch like that that's

Python from scratch like that that's what I thought he was so proud why he's

what I thought he was so proud why he's so proud of it it's because he wrote the

so proud of it it's because he wrote the entire you know he follow he he

entire you know he follow he he implemented all the bolt specs himself

implemented all the bolt specs himself in Python which is not even not even

in Python which is not even not even like that's that's insane to do that

like that's that's insane to do that that's like the stuff I do with

that's like the stuff I do with JavaScript is doing it with

JavaScript is doing it with python that's also possible maybe I I

python that's also possible maybe I I don't know maybe I misunderstood I did

don't know maybe I misunderstood I did interview him like three or four years

interview him like three or four years ago about this so that's what I remember

ago about this so that's what I remember from what he told me with trampoline

from what he told me with trampoline routing and stuff like this but maybe he

routing and stuff like this but maybe he wrote it from

wrote it from scratch yeah I think his implementation

scratch yeah I think his implementation and de Clair are the only ones to

and de Clair are the only ones to support well I don't I don't think

support well I don't I don't think that's true anymore I was about to say

that's true anymore I was about to say they're the only ones that support

they're the only ones that support trampoline routing but I yeah I think

trampoline routing but I yeah I think the other ones have added it now I'd

the other ones have added it now I'd have to check sorry I

have to check sorry I can't yeah sorry I don't know the answer

can't yeah sorry I don't know the answer to that no it's all good there there's

to that no it's all good there there's someone in the chat who's also asking

someone in the chat who's also asking something that I've been meaning to say

something that I've been meaning to say what about bolt 12 because this one has

what about bolt 12 because this one has been a major talking point in the

been a major talking point in the lightning space I remember who was it

lightning space I remember who was it from core lightning or at the time it

from core lightning or at the time it was sea lightning who was blaming L&D

was sea lightning who was blaming L&D for not working on it

for not working on it uh Rusty yeah I think it was Rusty um

uh Rusty yeah I think it was Rusty um what about Vol 12 so it was supposed to

what about Vol 12 so it was supposed to give you much better privacy and also

give you much better privacy and also allow you to have multiple reusable

allow you to have multiple reusable multiple time reusable addresses or

multiple time reusable addresses or something yeah it it definitely gives

something yeah it it definitely gives you a reusable address and that is

you a reusable address and that is pretty useful and I think well we

pretty useful and I think well we there's already been implementations of

there's already been implementations of that before um and they were really

that before um and they were really popular and now this one this one's out

popular and now this one this one's out and that's it's also having some

and that's it's also having some popularity

popularity um that I think is the real kicker I'm

um that I think is the real kicker I'm not sure that it really does improve

not sure that it really does improve your privacy all that much uh so earlier

your privacy all that much uh so earlier I think it was this year early or early

I think it was this year early or early re very recently within the last six

re very recently within the last six months I was at another conference and

months I was at another conference and and they had a hackathon and as part of

and they had a hackathon and as part of my hackathon I decided to make an atomic

my hackathon I decided to make an atomic swap tool that would swap between a bolt

swap tool that would swap between a bolt 11 payment and a bolt 12 payment so that

11 payment and a bolt 12 payment so that if your wallet didn't support bolt 12

if your wallet didn't support bolt 12 you could still do it um one of the

you could still do it um one of the things that bolt 12 is supposed to to be

things that bolt 12 is supposed to to be really good at is um hiding the

really good at is um hiding the recipient information and when I looked

recipient information and when I looked into it I was like oh great then I

into it I was like oh great then I shouldn't see a public key in there

shouldn't see a public key in there because that's the only recipient

because that's the only recipient information in a lighting invoice is

information in a lighting invoice is your public key but there is one like I

your public key but there is one like I I decoded a bolt2 invoice and there's

I decoded a bolt2 invoice and there's there's a pub key in there and I was

there's a pub key in there and I was like huh that's that's strange in what

like huh that's that's strange in what sense is it hiding the recipient's

sense is it hiding the recipient's information then uh because if you still

information then uh because if you still have a Pub Key then you know chain

have a Pub Key then you know chain alysis could still like plug that into

alysis could still like plug that into their ofac thing and and do a past

their ofac thing and and do a past failing whether it's on the on the ofac

failing whether it's on the on the ofac list um uh and once again the public key

list um uh and once again the public key is only used for information no money

is only used for information no money gets sent to it but or it's only used

gets sent to it but or it's only used for communication no money gets sent to

for communication no money gets sent to it but the thing that they say when when

it but the thing that they say when when I like talk to people about this is um

I like talk to people about this is um it's not that it hides your Pub Key it's

it's not that it hides your Pub Key it's that it hides your um network network

that it hides your um network network string so on on the lightning network uh

string so on on the lightning network uh you have a you have a network string

you have a you have a network string which is either Tor or uh an ipv4 or an

which is either Tor or uh an ipv4 or an IPv6 address that specifies where your

IPv6 address that specifies where your Note is on the network and they say if

Note is on the network and they say if you use bolt 12 then someone they can

you use bolt 12 then someone they can see your Pub Key but they don't know

see your Pub Key but they don't know what node you're on on the network but

what node you're on on the network but that's already true of Bolt 11 unless

that's already true of Bolt 11 unless you're a routing node if if you're a

you're a routing node if if you're a routing node then you then you're saying

routing node then you then you're saying here I am on the network come connect to

here I am on the network come connect to me but if you're not a routing node you

me but if you're not a routing node you don't disclose your your notes your your

don't disclose your your notes your your connection string anyway even in your

connection string anyway even in your invoice so what exactly privacy benefit

invoice so what exactly privacy benefit is there to B 12 it's not it still has a

is there to B 12 it's not it still has a public e in there and uh they say well

public e in there and uh they say well it doesn't reveal your connection string

it doesn't reveal your connection string but you would only reveal connection

but you would only reveal connection string if you're a routing note anyway

string if you're a routing note anyway in which case you're doing it you're

in which case you're doing it you're gossiping it you're publishing it so

gossiping it you're publishing it so what I don't understand the Privacy gain

what I don't understand the Privacy gain anymore uh Justin shocket has been uh

anymore uh Justin shocket has been uh he's one of the guys on Twitter I'm

he's one of the guys on Twitter I'm friends with and he's been criticizing

friends with and he's been criticizing bolt 12 for like making false claims for

bolt 12 for like making false claims for a long not B 12 but the developers

a long not B 12 but the developers behind it for making false claims and uh

behind it for making false claims and uh I'm I don't agree with him on all of

I'm I don't agree with him on all of this stuff about B 12 but uh after after

this stuff about B 12 but uh after after doing a hackathon project with it I was

doing a hackathon project with it I was like I don't I don't really think it

like I don't I don't really think it does improve your um your recipient

does improve your um your recipient privacy on the lightning Network I think

privacy on the lightning Network I think bolt 11 has really good recipient

bolt 11 has really good recipient privacy and uh and bolt 12 is just uh it

privacy and uh and bolt 12 is just uh it doesn't do what it it doesn't do what it

doesn't do what it it doesn't do what it says on the tin so sorry it but it does

says on the tin so sorry it but it does it does do the reusable thing which is

it does do the reusable thing which is which is nice like I really like that

which is nice like I really like that aspect of it

aspect of it so it's nice to have a reusable string

so it's nice to have a reusable string let me ask you a few more personal

let me ask you a few more personal questions what do you work on these days

questions what do you work on these days what keeps you

what keeps you busy uh uh this month I've been working

busy uh uh this month I've been working on my coin pool implementation um and so

on my coin pool implementation um and so that's that's what's been keeping me

that's that's what's been keeping me busy this month uh what was it last

busy this month uh what was it last month uh I recently made something

month uh I recently made something called mint market cap which is um I

called mint market cap which is um I wanted to find out how much money is on

wanted to find out how much money is on ecash mints and they don't disclose that

ecash mints and they don't disclose that information so what I did was I got uh I

information so what I did was I got uh I got the top 25 from Bitcoin mint.com and

got the top 25 from Bitcoin mint.com and then I

then I uh each one for an invoice and then I

uh each one for an invoice and then I used their invoice to get their node

used their invoice to get their node public key and since these are routing

public key and since these are routing nodes uh I knew that they were

nodes uh I knew that they were advertising um their their node on the

advertising um their their node on the on the network so I looked up their node

on the network so I looked up their node on the network and found how much money

on the network and found how much money they have in capacity and then I made

they have in capacity and then I made mint market cap which shows a list of

mint market cap which shows a list of all the uh all the all the amount of

all the uh all the all the amount of money that's uh that they have in total

money that's uh that they have in total capacity and then if you assume that the

capacity and then if you assume that the amount of money that they have is

amount of money that they have is divided 50/50 between money on their

divided 50/50 between money on their side and money that's available for

side and money that's available for outgoing then you can get an estimate of

outgoing then you can get an estimate of how much money is on ecast mins which I

how much money is on ecast mins which I thought was kind of neat because I don't

thought was kind of neat because I don't disclose that but I figured out a way to

disclose that but I figured out a way to get data it's probably not good data um

get data it's probably not good data um someone pointed out that a lot of the

someone pointed out that a lot of the mints are using strike and using uh

mints are using strike and using uh Phoenix Phoenix D the the Phoenix

Phoenix Phoenix D the the Phoenix implementation for desktops as their

implementation for desktops as their backend and so I'm including like

backend and so I'm including like hundreds of Bitcoins that are probably

hundreds of Bitcoins that are probably just used by strike and and Phoenix D

just used by strike and and Phoenix D and then they're not used for ecash so

and then they're not used for ecash so the numbers are probably way off but

the numbers are probably way off but they are numbers um so I made that um

they are numbers um so I made that um let me just go I can go to my GitHub

let me just go I can go to my GitHub repo and find out what I was working on

repo and find out what I was working on last month I forget I'm working on new

last month I forget I'm working on new projects all the time so

projects all the time so um so changes and now my internet's slow

um so changes and now my internet's slow are you still able to hear me okay yeah

are you still able to hear me okay yeah I'm able to hear you I guess there were

I'm able to hear you I guess there were some people who complained that maybe

some people who complained that maybe their moments when the audio cuts out

their moments when the audio cuts out I'm not not sure about that I did not

I'm not not sure about that I did not experience it oh I made something called

experience it oh I made something called Title Transfer app so I I did a lot of

Title Transfer app so I I did a lot of work on state chains recently or La last

work on state chains recently or La last month um and state chains are another

month um and state chains are another really cool privacy tool in Bitcoin um

really cool privacy tool in Bitcoin um that I worked on uh and I thought it

that I worked on uh and I thought it would be cool if in addition to using a

would be cool if in addition to using a state chain to transfer Bitcoin around

state chain to transfer Bitcoin around it would be cool if you could list any

it would be cool if you could list any item that you have like a banana or I

item that you have like a banana or I don't know whatever this is you could

don't know whatever this is you could list this you make a title for it and

list this you make a title for it and you just say I hereby certify that I

you just say I hereby certify that I have you know this thing and if I

have you know this thing and if I transfer this title to you using a state

transfer this title to you using a state chain then you get the same chain of

chain then you get the same chain of signatures that that a state chain gives

signatures that that a state chain gives for bitline only this would be for a

for bitline only this would be for a physical item or for a digital item so I

physical item or for a digital item so I made Title Transfer app so that you can

made Title Transfer app so that you can just sell things using the same using

just sell things using the same using the same state chain model that I that

the same state chain model that I that we that some people use for coin uh so

we that some people use for coin uh so that's that was a neat thing I also came

that's that was a neat thing I also came up with um uh a way to I I found a way

up with um uh a way to I I found a way to make it so that a state chain can't

to make it so that a state chain can't rob you um which is the current

rob you um which is the current implementation of State chains is called

implementation of State chains is called Mercury layer and it's possible for them

Mercury layer and it's possible for them to uh assist a prior so if somebody

to uh assist a prior so if somebody sends you coins on a state chain the

sends you coins on a state chain the state chain entity is responsible for

state chain entity is responsible for preventing double spends or preventing

preventing double spends or preventing the person from taking their money back

the person from taking their money back and if he's malicious he can allow a

and if he's malicious he can allow a double spend but figured out a way to

double spend but figured out a way to make it so that even if he does that you

make it so that even if he does that you still get you still get all your money

still get you still get all your money out like you don't you don't get robbed

out like you don't you don't get robbed uh and I call that insured State chains

uh and I call that insured State chains so I wrote up a specification for it and

so I wrote up a specification for it and then I made a a video at uh adopting

then I made a a video at uh adopting Bitcoin on how on how this protocol

Bitcoin on how on how this protocol works and I thought I would implement it

works and I thought I would implement it but then I fig while I was working on

but then I fig while I was working on the state chain thing I figured out how

the state chain thing I figured out how to do a coin pool and then I got

to do a coin pool and then I got distracted by that and I've been working

distracted by that and I've been working on that ever since uh so I I'll have to

on that ever since uh so I I'll have to do my uh insured State change thing some

do my uh insured State change thing some other time uh I've been doing a lot of

other time uh I've been doing a lot of stuff with Noster wallet connect um

stuff with Noster wallet connect um Noster wallet connect is a protocol for

Noster wallet connect is a protocol for communicating with wallets using the

communicating with wallets using the Noster protocol uh or yeah it's a

Noster protocol uh or yeah it's a protocol for using another protocol

protocol for using another protocol that's that's true um uh but yeah it's

that's that's true um uh but yeah it's it it it lets you basically DM your

it it it lets you basically DM your wallet um direct message your wallet a

wallet um direct message your wallet a command and say like send money to this

command and say like send money to this person or or receive money from that

person or or receive money from that person and it's nice because then you

person and it's nice because then you can have your phone in your wallet or

can have your phone in your wallet or your in your pocket and you don't have

your in your pocket and you don't have to pull it out just send it a command uh

to pull it out just send it a command uh by you know hitting a button on your

by you know hitting a button on your keyboard and it'll it'll just do the

keyboard and it'll it'll just do the thing uh so I made some tools I made a

thing uh so I made some tools I made a couple of wallets that supported it and

couple of wallets that supported it and uh I made like an interface and I made a

uh I made like an interface and I made a testing tool so the developers can test

testing tool so the developers can test their stuff against that so that's what

their stuff against that so that's what I was working on last

I was working on last month um I made something called faucet

month um I made something called faucet generator I got mad about all these uh

generator I got mad about all these uh Bitcoin testet faucets that keep on

Bitcoin testet faucets that keep on shutting down uh they they keep on like

shutting down uh they they keep on like um like they

um like they the mempool recently launched one but

the mempool recently launched one but they put a rate they put a requirement

they put a rate they put a requirement that you have to sign in with your

that you have to sign in with your GitHub account in order to get coins

GitHub account in order to get coins from their faucet which I thought was

from their faucet which I thought was stupid and a bunch of the other ones

stupid and a bunch of the other ones made it so that you can only withdraw

made it so that you can only withdraw like 2,000 STS from them which is really

like 2,000 STS from them which is really difficult for a developer to do anything

difficult for a developer to do anything if he only has 2,000 you know testet

if he only has 2,000 you know testet sets so I made my own faucet called

sets so I made my own faucet called faucet generator where you can spin up a

faucet generator where you can spin up a faucet that just has a normal send

faucet that just has a normal send button and and a balance and in a

button and and a balance and in a Bitcoin address for you to load it with

Bitcoin address for you to load it with but the nice thing is you can generate

but the nice thing is you can generate them on the fly so if you want to if you

them on the fly so if you want to if you want to give someone their own testet

want to give someone their own testet faucet you can create one that's empty

faucet you can create one that's empty and then send money from your faucet to

and then send money from your faucet to theirs and then just give them the link

theirs and then just give them the link and now they've got a faucet with no

and now they've got a faucet with no rate limits and no one else knows about

rate limits and no one else knows about it uh so I made that that was kind of

it uh so I made that that was kind of fun to make faucet

fun to make faucet generator

generator um uh what did I get I made a test I

um uh what did I get I made a test I made my own test net uh I I should have

made my own test net uh I I should have called it Su test net because there's a

called it Su test net because there's a misnaming opportunity but I just called

misnaming opportunity but I just called it uh testnet launcher uh so this I got

it uh testnet launcher uh so this I got mad at this one because well it was

mad at this one because well it was actually the same issue that led me to

actually the same issue that led me to make the faucet generator I couldn't get

make the faucet generator I couldn't get I couldn't get testet coins on a uh from

I couldn't get testet coins on a uh from the faucets and I was like well I'll

the faucets and I was like well I'll just make my own testet where I can

just make my own testet where I can generate coins just by clicking a button

generate coins just by clicking a button and then and then so I did I made my own

and then and then so I did I made my own testet that understands the rules of

testet that understands the rules of Bitcoin script and uh it uses the same

Bitcoin script and uh it uses the same transaction validity rules as Bitcoin um

transaction validity rules as Bitcoin um but you can just generate coins by

but you can just generate coins by clicking a button it generates 50 coins

clicking a button it generates 50 coins every time you click it and so then you

every time you click it and so then you have no need for uh for a faucet you you

have no need for uh for a faucet you you just you just make your own coins and uh

just you just make your own coins and uh and use my test net so there's that uh

and use my test net so there's that uh is that enough I I work on stuff all the

is that enough I I work on stuff all the time and it's just I constantly changing

time and it's just I constantly changing to new projects so uh it's hard to say

to new projects so uh it's hard to say when you want me to stop I have no idea

when you want me to stop I have no idea what enough even means in this context

what enough even means in this context like there's a lot that you're doing

like there's a lot that you're doing you're all over the place I think State

you're all over the place I think State chains are super under rated I did

chains are super under rated I did interview the guys from Mercury layer a

interview the guys from Mercury layer a few

few times and of course most of the stuff

times and of course most of the stuff that they said went over my head because

that they said went over my head because I don't really understand how it works

I don't really understand how it works but it's really cool it's like this

but it's really cool it's like this layer where you transfer utxo

layer where you transfer utxo ownership yeah you transfer the private

ownership yeah you transfer the private key which is a really strange idea it

key which is a really strange idea it sounds awful but it's so magical um

sounds awful but it's so magical um after after I make after I finish my

after after I make after I finish my coin pool implementation I want to make

coin pool implementation I want to make a prediction Market and so I figured out

a prediction Market and so I figured out a way to do a I think I figured out a

a way to do a I think I figured out a way to do a prediction Market on bitcoin

way to do a prediction Market on bitcoin some of my ideas I have to I have to

some of my ideas I have to I have to implement them to see if they work and

implement them to see if they work and this is I think I'm pretty sure this one

this is I think I'm pretty sure this one will work but it's pretty cool and it'll

will work but it's pretty cool and it'll be really hard to build um but yeah I

be really hard to build um but yeah I think I figured out a way to do a

think I figured out a way to do a prediction Market similar to predix or

prediction Market similar to predix or um what's that one that's on ethereum

um what's that one that's on ethereum that everyone uses poly Market poly

that everyone uses poly Market poly Market yeah I figure out a way to make

Market yeah I figure out a way to make something like poly Market but make it

something like poly Market but make it work on bitcoin without needing a soft

work on bitcoin without needing a soft work and the only new trust assumption

work and the only new trust assumption is the same one poly Market has uh which

is the same one poly Market has uh which is that Oracle honesty if the if the

is that Oracle honesty if the if the Oracle who says you know the Packers

Oracle who says you know the Packers beat the Saints lies then uh you can

beat the Saints lies then uh you can lose money that way um but that's the

lose money that way um but that's the only new trust assumption added uh

only new trust assumption added uh whereas other methods of adding

whereas other methods of adding prediction markets on bitcoin they

prediction markets on bitcoin they usually have custody so I figured out a

usually have custody so I figured out a way to do it without um without custody

way to do it without um without custody but unless you count the Oracle as a

but unless you count the Oracle as a kind of custodian because you can just

kind of custodian because you can just you know send the money to the wrong

you know send the money to the wrong person and that's kind of what a

person and that's kind of what a custodian

custodian does uh yeah so that's a that's

does uh yeah so that's a that's something but that the reason I bring

something but that the reason I bring that up is because that it relies on the

that up is because that it relies on the fact that with a state chain you can

fact that with a state chain you can transfer ownership of a of a private key

transfer ownership of a of a private key in a secure way and so what I do is I

in a secure way and so what I do is I make it so that that private key is the

make it so that that private key is the recipient of coins that have not yet

recipient of coins that have not yet been sent but they can be sent depending

been sent but they can be sent depending on the outcome of an oracle uh you know

on the outcome of an oracle uh you know thing so that that allows you to have uh

thing so that that allows you to have uh to have coins that will be yours if you

to have coins that will be yours if you win the if you win the um you know the

win the if you win the um you know the if you if you guess correctly on the

if you if you guess correctly on the prediction Market but because these

prediction Market but because these coins aren't in the address yet and it's

coins aren't in the address yet and it's a state chain address uh you can

a state chain address uh you can transfer them before as long as it's

transfer them before as long as it's before the event has occurred you can

before the event has occurred you can transfer ownership of that private key

transfer ownership of that private key to other people and uh and thus sell

to other people and uh and thus sell your you know your right to um to take

your you know your right to um to take away money if if you got the uh if you

away money if if you got the uh if you guessed correctly on the outcome of the

guessed correctly on the outcome of the event um so that's a that's a prediction

event um so that's a that's a prediction market so I want to make that uh and

market so I want to make that uh and that uses State chains I don't know it's

that uses State chains I don't know it's just so just so much to build let me you

just so just so much to build let me you want to see can am I able to share my

want to see can am I able to share my screen and you guys would actually see

screen and you guys would actually see it on here you should be able to okay

it on here you should be able to okay I'm going to show you my list of my

I'm going to show you my list of my backlog of projects I get like five

backlog of projects I get like five ideas a day uh and and some of them if

ideas a day uh and and some of them if they're if they're a good idea I write

they're if they're a good idea I write them down um so let me share my screen

them down um so let me share my screen can you see

can you see it you see a document here I see it now

it you see a document here I see it now just let me adjust

just let me adjust for the live stream video because I I

for the live stream video because I I basically cut your

basically cut your portrait show to people okay so this is

portrait show to people okay so this is like a Google doc it's a Google doc I

like a Google doc it's a Google doc I have called project ideas or to-do list

have called project ideas or to-do list and it is Eight Pages of different ideas

and it is Eight Pages of different ideas I've had uh for Bitcoin software that I

I've had uh for Bitcoin software that I can make and you know each of these

can make and you know each of these things someday that one's a really long

things someday that one's a really long idea

idea um you know some of one day I will make

um you know some of one day I will make each of these things um we'll see but I

each of these things um we'll see but I get I get ideas much faster than I can

get I get ideas much faster than I can create them so I'm up to 49 ideas in my

create them so I'm up to 49 ideas in my backlog right now and uh just it's just

backlog right now and uh just it's just a constant flood of of

a constant flood of of ideas uh so yeah I'm always moving on to

ideas uh so yeah I'm always moving on to new

new projects well that's a good problem to

projects well that's a good problem to have yeah I love it I wouldn't have it

have yeah I love it I wouldn't have it any other

any other way I know a bunch of guys in the space

way I know a bunch of guys in the space who are reing on the same idea for

who are reing on the same idea for almost a decade and it's getting stale

almost a decade and it's getting stale it's getting boring so it's it's really

it's getting boring so it's it's really refreshing to have people like you

refreshing to have people like you always come up with something new

always come up with something new and different not necessarily new but

and different not necessarily new but different like I'm pretty sure Paul

different like I'm pretty sure Paul storts he has been the guy who tried to

storts he has been the guy who tried to bring prediction markets to bitcoin for

bring prediction markets to bitcoin for longer than a decade I'm not sure

longer than a decade I'm not sure exactly why he hasn't but I'm pretty

exactly why he hasn't but I'm pretty sure he would be interested to hear your

sure he would be interested to hear your idea yeah he I I think he wanted um he

idea yeah he I I think he wanted um he wanted he wanted to build Drive chains

wanted he wanted to build Drive chains so that he could build a prediction

so that he could build a prediction Market

Market um I don't think he

um I don't think he thinks that I suspect if I shared my

thinks that I suspect if I shared my idea with him of doing it with the state

idea with him of doing it with the state chain um he would I think he would be

chain um he would I think he would be like this is stupid it if you don't he

like this is stupid it if you don't he would probably say if you're not paying

would probably say if you're not paying miners to run this project for you then

miners to run this project for you then miners will kill it um they will they

miners will kill it um they will they will refuse to mine the transactions or

will refuse to mine the transactions or something and then uh that's why we need

something and then uh that's why we need to do it on Drive chains that's what I

to do it on Drive chains that's what I suspect Paul would say if I if I told

suspect Paul would say if I if I told him about my idea just be like well if

him about my idea just be like well if it doesn't pay miners it's a dumb idea

it doesn't pay miners it's a dumb idea well I hope he listens and he's going to

well I hope he listens and he's going to give you feedback I was also going to

give you feedback I was also going to ask you about your music career because

ask you about your music career because there is something related to that going

there is something related to that going on you have a handful of songs that I've

on you have a handful of songs that I've listened to I think my favorite is your

listened to I think my favorite is your cover of La Bamba but adapted to the

cover of La Bamba but adapted to the Bitcoin context you changed the lyrics

Bitcoin context you changed the lyrics that one's your favorite that was my

that one's your favorite that was my first one and I was just lying in bed

first one and I was just lying in bed one day and I thought of I thought I was

one day and I thought of I thought I was I think I was listening to the song and

I think I was listening to the song and I was like oh that'd be funny if I

I was like oh that'd be funny if I changed it to the Bitcoin uh so I just

changed it to the Bitcoin uh so I just sitting in my bed I just put my

sitting in my bed I just put my earphones up to my mouth and started

earphones up to my mouth and started singing and I recorded myself and

singing and I recorded myself and released it as a as a single uh and that

released it as a as a single uh and that launched my music career which currently

launched my music career which currently spans five I think five songs uh and one

spans five I think five songs uh and one concert I did a concert in uh in Brazil

concert I did a concert in uh in Brazil uh at uh what satson so that was fun um

uh at uh what satson so that was fun um um yeah uh perhaps more will come but

um yeah uh perhaps more will come but I've been so I've been so focused on

I've been so I've been so focused on coding lately I haven't even well I have

coding lately I haven't even well I have thought of a couple new songs maybe I

thought of a couple new songs maybe I should record those I thought of

should record those I thought of um uh lightning Network killed monero's

um uh lightning Network killed monero's use case lightning Network killed

use case lightning Network killed monero's use case encryption on the

monero's use case encryption on the monetary

monetary base and then I would do you know I I

base and then I would do you know I I only came up with that part but I'd need

only came up with that part but I'd need to write lyrics for all this all the

to write lyrics for all this all the verses I that would be fun I think it

verses I that would be fun I think it sounds better if it's lightning has

sounds better if it's lightning has killed monero's use case because it has

killed monero's use case because it has the same Cadence you know yeah if you

the same Cadence you know yeah if you say lightning Network killed it it it's

say lightning Network killed it it it's too much too many

too much too many syllables it is too many syllables but I

syllables it is too many syllables but I don't putting in a a perfect tense there

don't putting in a a perfect tense there is also strange to my ears I don't know

is also strange to my ears I don't know maybe it certainly needs workshopped so

maybe it certainly needs workshopped so I only have those two

I only have those two lines but but yeah I sang that for some

lines but but yeah I sang that for some of the guys at the co-working space here

of the guys at the co-working space here and they thought it was

and they thought it was hilarious so where can people find you

hilarious so where can people find you over the next few months which

over the next few months which conferences are you attending what are

conferences are you attending what are you going to speak about well I'm I'm

you going to speak about well I'm I'm going to bitcoin plus plus fora and I

going to bitcoin plus plus fora and I will be talking there about my coin pool

will be talking there about my coin pool implementation I will I'm hoping to do a

implementation I will I'm hoping to do a demo of of it of the software and then

demo of of it of the software and then um an explanation of how it works and

um an explanation of how it works and then we'll do a live coding session

then we'll do a live coding session where we'll actually make the core

where we'll actually make the core functionality together uh I'm hoping

functionality together uh I'm hoping wallet developers will come and learn

wallet developers will come and learn how to do this so we can integrate coin

how to do this so we can integrate coin pools into Bitcoin wallets so they offer

pools into Bitcoin wallets so they offer a number of advantages over including

a number of advantages over including over the lightning Network they're

over the lightning Network they're faster a coin pool is faster than the

faster a coin pool is faster than the lightning Network because you don't have

lightning Network because you don't have any routing you don't have to do pathf

any routing you don't have to do pathf finding on a on a coin pool um it's

finding on a on a coin pool um it's cheaper because inside the pool all

cheaper because inside the pool all transactions are free um whereas on

transactions are free um whereas on Lightning fees are but they they're

Lightning fees are but they they're still there and so to coin pool you can

still there and so to coin pool you can have absolutely free

have absolutely free transactions um yeah it's also I I mine

transactions um yeah it's also I I mine is asynchronous so you can you can send

is asynchronous so you can you can send coins to somebody without needing them

coins to somebody without needing them to give you something first so in in

to give you something first so in in Bitcoin normally someone has to give you

Bitcoin normally someone has to give you their Bitcoin address or they have to

their Bitcoin address or they have to give you a lightning invoice if you to

give you a lightning invoice if you to send them money online you create the

send them money online you create the like a packet of money for them and you

like a packet of money for them and you send it to them and then they can redeem

send it to them and then they can redeem it on this coin pool uh which is great I

it on this coin pool uh which is great I I really that's my favorite thing about

I really that's my favorite thing about it is the

it is the asynchronicity um so that so that's what

asynchronicity um so that so that's what I'm going to be talking about there and

I'm going to be talking about there and I'll explaining how that works doing the

I'll explaining how that works doing the demo and then we'll do a live coding

demo and then we'll do a live coding session um the next one that I'm

session um the next one that I'm supposed to be at is in May and I have

supposed to be at is in May and I have not confirmed my attendance at it yet

not confirmed my attendance at it yet but uh there are two conferences that

but uh there are two conferences that want me to go to them in May one of them

want me to go to them in May one of them is called Bitcoin 2025 and it's in Las

is called Bitcoin 2025 and it's in Las Vegas and the other one is in Austin

Vegas and the other one is in Austin Texas and it's a Bitcoin Plus+

Texas and it's a Bitcoin Plus+ um so I'll probably go to both of them

um so I'll probably go to both of them but I haven't yet confirmed my

but I haven't yet confirmed my attendance uh I don't know the rest of

attendance uh I don't know the rest of the ones I'll be going to there's one in

the ones I'll be going to there's one in Argentina that I'd like to go to I would

Argentina that I'd like to go to I would like to go to satson again my favorite

like to go to satson again my favorite in Argentina or something else it well I

in Argentina or something else it well I want to go to that too but there there

want to go to that too but there there is another there's supposed to be

is another there's supposed to be another one the guy the guy who started

another one the guy the guy who started La bitom wants to do another one now at

La bitom wants to do another one now at least he told me he did because he said

least he told me he did because he said that he was upset that La bitcon now

that he was upset that La bitcon now does other altcoins it's like Bitcoin

does other altcoins it's like Bitcoin plus a bunch of other stuff so he wants

plus a bunch of other stuff so he wants to do he wants to redo he wants to make

to do he wants to redo he wants to make a new conference that is once again

a new conference that is once again Bitcoin only uh and I think like it's

Bitcoin only uh and I think like it's easier to do that now um maybe maybe for

easier to do that now um maybe maybe for like for a few years there it was really

like for a few years there it was really hard to be Bitcoin only but now it's

hard to be Bitcoin only but now it's easier again so he wants to do that and

easier again so he wants to do that and he invited me to be one speaker at that

he invited me to be one speaker at that but I haven't heard anything else and

but I haven't heard anything else and that's I think he said it was going to

that's I think he said it was going to be in April uh so I think I would know

be in April uh so I think I would know something by now um yeah so maybe that

something by now um yeah so maybe that might not happen those that's as far out

might not happen those that's as far out as I've planned and and I haven't even

as I've planned and and I haven't even finished finalizing my plans for May I

finished finalizing my plans for May I don't like to plan more than three

don't like to plan more than three months in advance so that's why I

months in advance so that's why I haven't confirmed my attendance for

haven't confirmed my attendance for those May conferences yet because I want

those May conferences yet because I want to wait till February when you travel to

to wait till February when you travel to so many conferences and you have

so many conferences and you have commitments to do presentations and I

commitments to do presentations and I guess you also try to open some sort of

guess you also try to open some sort of school where you're teaching some basic

school where you're teaching some basic stuff about how to use Bitcoin from the

stuff about how to use Bitcoin from the command line and construct construct

command line and construct construct transactions and stuff when you have

transactions and stuff when you have time to actually do work when you have

time to actually do work when you have all of these other

all of these other commitments well uh I don't really do

commitments well uh I don't really do the I haven't done the workshop since

the I haven't done the workshop since November I I stopped in December because

November I I stopped in December because of holidays and then I just haven't

of holidays and then I just haven't restarted again so that has taken one

restarted again so that has taken one load of work off the table and as for

load of work off the table and as for the conferences I'm almost always doing

the conferences I'm almost always doing a workshop at a conference um and so I'm

a workshop at a conference um and so I'm it's it's still work like for me to for

it's it's still work like for me to for me to prepare for the conference I have

me to prepare for the conference I have to make the software that I'm gonna

to make the software that I'm gonna present and so uh so still work um yeah

present and so uh so still work um yeah it's it

it's it facilitates rarely do I have a deadline

facilitates rarely do I have a deadline on my projects the only time I have a

on my projects the only time I have a deadline is when I have something that

deadline is when I have something that I'm supposed to present at a conference

I'm supposed to present at a conference and uh that's that's nice uh it there

and uh that's that's nice uh it there are benefits to having deadlines like

are benefits to having deadlines like they motivate you to get work done even

they motivate you to get work done even when you don't want to work on it which

when you don't want to work on it which is hard for me because normally I just

is hard for me because normally I just do whatever I want and if I don't want

do whatever I want and if I don't want to work on something I'm just like I

to work on something I'm just like I it's not going to do it but if I told

it's not going to do it but if I told someone I will do this for your work for

someone I will do this for your work for your uh conference that I kind of feel

your uh conference that I kind of feel more obligated oh you're you still have

more obligated oh you're you still have a lot of energy which I admire like the

a lot of energy which I admire like the Cadence with which you speak and the

Cadence with which you speak and the enthusiasm they speak for themselves you

enthusiasm they speak for themselves you know oh thank you and you lost some

know oh thank you and you lost some weight congratulations on that thank you

weight congratulations on that thank you I'm glad you noticed I've been going to

I'm glad you noticed I've been going to the gym daily for uh since December 30th

the gym daily for uh since December 30th uh doing two hours swimming and I cut

uh doing two hours swimming and I cut down my calorie intake to 1300 a day and

down my calorie intake to 1300 a day and it's having an effect check it out check

it's having an effect check it out check it out and I'm thinner than I was I'm

it out and I'm thinner than I was I'm not thin yet but I'm thinner so it's

not thin yet but I'm thinner so it's it's coming

it's coming along yeah yeah it it's good to see how

along yeah yeah it it's good to see how many people in Bitcoin are improving

many people in Bitcoin are improving their lives even in small ways you know

their lives even in small ways you know because it's so easy to forget about

because it's so easy to forget about yourself and just focus on

yourself and just focus on work I've actually gained weight since

work I've actually gained weight since the last time but I'm not sure if it's

the last time but I'm not sure if it's fat or muscle because I I go to the gym

fat or muscle because I I go to the gym but I don't do cardio so yeah anyway

but I don't do cardio so yeah anyway swiming counts is cardio right

swiming counts is cardio right what counts as cardio swimming swimming

what counts as cardio swimming swimming yeah yeah okay it's a pretty good

yeah yeah okay it's a pretty good workout I should try that it's just that

workout I should try that it's just that it's winter here so it's not very nice

it's winter here so it's not very nice to especially when you have long hair

to especially when you have long hair but that's long hair people problems I

but that's long hair people problems I feel sorry for asking you this so late

feel sorry for asking you this so late into the episode but I've turned this

into the episode but I've turned this into sort of a habit maybe I'll just

into sort of a habit maybe I'll just make a compilation of people answering

make a compilation of people answering this question but what do you think

this question but what do you think about increasing the block size of

about increasing the block size of Bitcoin at any point for the purpose of

Bitcoin at any point for the purpose of just making it easier for people to

just making it easier for people to onboard layer twos in a non-custodial

onboard layer twos in a non-custodial way like we have much faster internet

way like we have much faster internet than we did in 2017 bandwidth is cheaper

than we did in 2017 bandwidth is cheaper storage is cheaper for the same amount

storage is cheaper for the same amount of money that you would spend on let's

of money that you would spend on let's say a 1 tbyte SSD back in 2017 now you

say a 1 tbyte SSD back in 2017 now you get a four terabyte one so do you think

get a four terabyte one so do you think there is ever a point where it makes

there is ever a point where it makes sense to do that or do you think we're

sense to do that or do you think we're stuck

stuck to I guess we're culturally in love with

to I guess we're culturally in love with having these small blocks and even if

having these small blocks and even if there's demand for it it will never

there's demand for it it will never happen because it requires a hard

happen because it requires a hard Fork but I think you can do it with a

Fork but I think you can do it with a soft Fork so uh we managed to fit a

soft Fork so uh we managed to fit a block size increase or to get a block

block size increase or to get a block size increase into Bitcoin when we did

size increase into Bitcoin when we did segwit and we increased it by 4X at the

segwit and we increased it by 4X at the time uh I would like to do that again

time uh I would like to do that again and increase it by 6 16x let's do a 16x

and increase it by 6 16x let's do a 16x soft Fork block size increase 128

soft Fork block size increase 128 megabytes sure create a new witness

megabytes sure create a new witness field and uh call it witness to and you

field and uh call it witness to and you can you can put you can put stuff in

can you can put you can put stuff in there and because it's a soft Fork um

there and because it's a soft Fork um it's opted in if you if you don't want

it's opted in if you if you don't want the block size increase just keep

the block size increase just keep running the old uh keep running the old

running the old uh keep running the old software and you and you won't see

software and you and you won't see whatever's in witness 2 so that's my

whatever's in witness 2 so that's my that's my proposal and I think one thing

that's my proposal and I think one thing I think that would be good for is

I think that would be good for is inscriptions um you put your

inscriptions um you put your inscriptions in witness to and uh then

inscriptions in witness to and uh then people people who want them can just

people people who want them can just have have that extra data there and

have have that extra data there and people who don't will just not download

people who don't will just not download the new software and then then more

the new software and then then more people more people get what they want so

people more people get what they want so that's my yeah I'm in favor of a block

that's my yeah I'm in favor of a block size increase but I want to do it as

size increase but I want to do it as another software like we did with segue

another software like we did with segue so basically to have another witness

so basically to have another witness side where you put this

side where you put this data yeah you can put any data you want

data yeah you can put any data you want but I imagine it would be well actually

but I imagine it would be well actually inscriptions aren't really popular

inscriptions aren't really popular popular anymore maybe this idea would

popular anymore maybe this idea would have been more popular if I said it two

have been more popular if I said it two years ago um but yeah I'm saying it

years ago um but yeah I'm saying it now okay but is this

now okay but is this prunable yeah you just don't you just

prunable yeah you just don't you just don't download the witness 2

don't download the witness 2 Data so would you say that these

Data so would you say that these transactions are less valuable than the

transactions are less valuable than the other ones because they're going to get

other ones because they're going to get stored by a smaller amount of

stored by a smaller amount of nodes I would say they're less valuable

nodes I would say they're less valuable but uh if you you apply the subjective

but uh if you you apply the subjective theory of value my opinion on

theory of value my opinion on something's value doesn't matter it's

something's value doesn't matter it's just whether the market thinks uh it's

just whether the market thinks uh it's whether the market thinks the state the

whether the market thinks the state the you know that this stuff is valuable

you know that this stuff is valuable that that determines its you know

that that determines its you know monetary um price so if other if if

monetary um price so if other if if somebody put something in witness to

somebody put something in witness to that people wanted to buy uh that would

that people wanted to buy uh that would be valuable to those people and uh and

be valuable to those people and uh and that that's then you just let the market

that that's then you just let the market decide I'm all forgiving people options

decide I'm all forgiving people options I'm really glad options exist and uh

I'm really glad options exist and uh Whenever there are fewer options I want

Whenever there are fewer options I want to make more of

to make more of them that's beautiful you should put

them that's beautiful you should put that on a t-shirt but like make it

that on a t-shirt but like make it shorter so it's easy to read options are

shorter so it's easy to read options are good options are

good options are good you should sell that in your shop

good you should sell that in your shop or something put it on

or something put it on shopster yeah I could I could when I was

shopster yeah I could I could when I was doing my workshops I was selling them on

doing my workshops I was selling them on shopster I think I was the only uh I was

shopster I think I was the only uh I was the only educator with with a DNM DNM

the only educator with with a DNM DNM for uh workshops to buy my workshops on

for uh workshops to buy my workshops on on a dark net

on a dark net Market well that's the way it should be

Market well that's the way it should be right you should not know who your

right you should not know who your students are and you should not know

students are and you should not know where the money comes from I also noed

where the money comes from I also noed that all of my workshops were also

that all of my workshops were also available for free so if you if you go

available for free so if you if you go to my website you can still buy a

to my website you can still buy a workshop but every link says uh you

workshop but every link says uh you either click here to buy it for I think

either click here to buy it for I think it's $5 dollar per Workshop or click

it's $5 dollar per Workshop or click here to get it for free then it just

here to get it for free then it just takes you to the YouTube link see it's

takes you to the YouTube link see it's exact same thing if if you buy it all it

exact same thing if if you buy it all it does is send you a YouTube

does is send you a YouTube link you're just

link you're just circumventing this idea that people will

circumventing this idea that people will pirate this and put it on tour and so

pirate this and put it on tour and so you're like why why B just get it from

you're like why why B just get it from my source no I I just I thought it would

my source no I I just I thought it would a I thought it would be funny to have uh

a I thought it would be funny to have uh to have something that says like you can

to have something that says like you can buy this or you can get the exact same

buy this or you can get the exact same thing for free right here I thought it'd

thing for free right here I thought it'd be funny and sometimes humor motivates

be funny and sometimes humor motivates me to do to do things uh but there's a

me to do to do things uh but there's a second reason which is that I like

second reason which is that I like information to be free want I want

information to be free want I want people to take my workshops even if they

people to take my workshops even if they can't afford them uh so I made them only

can't afford them uh so I made them only $5 a piece so that more people could

$5 a piece so that more people could afford them and I was just like why

afford them and I was just like why don't I just make them available for

don't I just make them available for free for anyone who can afford it so

free for anyone who can afford it so that's what I did and uh so any of your

that's what I did and uh so any of your listeners if you want to do a workshop

listeners if you want to do a workshop go to my website supertest net.org you

go to my website supertest net.org you can find them there and you can you can

can find them there and you can you can click either the button that sends me

click either the button that sends me five bucks or you can click the button

five bucks or you can click the button that gives them for free super testnet

that gives them for free super testnet I'm a huge fan of your work I recommend

I'm a huge fan of your work I recommend people to follow you it's supercore

people to follow you it's supercore testet on Twitter and I think it's super

testet on Twitter and I think it's super space testnet on noer I'm not sure about

space testnet on noer I'm not sure about that but that's how you get tagged when

that but that's how you get tagged when I type your

I type your name where else do you have a presence

name where else do you have a presence supertest net.org it's my website and

supertest net.org it's my website and you can find all the links there on

you can find all the links there on YouTube I'm highlevel Bitcoin and uh I

YouTube I'm highlevel Bitcoin and uh I release demo videos of my latest

release demo videos of my latest software there um on telegram I'm super

software there um on telegram I'm super test net all one word so it's weird on

test net all one word so it's weird on Noster there's a space on telegram or on

Noster there's a space on telegram or on telegram there's nothing uh separating

telegram there's nothing uh separating the two words and then there's uh and on

the two words and then there's uh and on Twitter there's uh underscore uh

Twitter there's uh underscore uh different on every platform that's good

different on every platform that's good marketing um what else I don't remember

marketing um what else I don't remember what else let me go check my website and

what else let me go check my website and see what else I've got do you ever ask

see what else I've got do you ever ask people for

people for money well uh I sell stuff for money no

money well uh I sell stuff for money no that's not what I mean because people

that's not what I mean because people can create fake accounts with the

can create fake accounts with the underscore on telegram or something and

underscore on telegram or something and pretend it's you and ask for money you

pretend it's you and ask for money you know yeah that actually happened to me

know yeah that actually happened to me with someone who used the one instead of

with someone who used the one instead of the L in my

the L in my name okay I think I reported them uh

name okay I think I reported them uh yeah you I I don't think I have enough

yeah you I I don't think I have enough followers for that yet I think you they

followers for that yet I think you they they start targeting you and you get

they start targeting you and you get like 15,000 followers and I've only got

like 15,000 followers and I've only got like 8,000 so no that's not how it works

like 8,000 so no that's not how it works oh okay what what's the metric

oh okay what what's the metric then I do have my suspicions because

then I do have my suspicions because this happened to me twice and one time

this happened to me twice and one time they actually were able to extract some

they actually were able to extract some money from someone but I think they come

money from someone but I think they come to conferences and they observe you know

to conferences and they observe you know they look at you and they see who you're

they look at you and they see who you're interacting with and who really trusts

interacting with and who really trusts you because the guy who actually got

you because the guy who actually got scammed and sent money and I feel

scammed and sent money and I feel humbled you know I realized okay this

humbled you know I realized okay this guy trusted me this much that he was

guy trusted me this much that he was going to send money without asking

going to send money without asking questions without even calling me or

questions without even calling me or something but that guy I mean I only

something but that guy I mean I only hang out with him at conferences we

hang out with him at conferences we don't interact on Twitter or anything so

don't interact on Twitter or anything so I guess it's social engineered in a way

I guess it's social engineered in a way so that they look they see oh this guy

so that they look they see oh this guy looks popular look he's talking to this

looks popular look he's talking to this guy maybe that he's Rich I'm just going

guy maybe that he's Rich I'm just going to pretend that I'm him and see where

to pretend that I'm him and see where this goes because there there was no way

this goes because there there was no way to connect the two of us the guy who got

to connect the two of us the guy who got scammed and myself just to make it clear

scammed and myself just to make it clear for everyone if I ever want any money

for everyone if I ever want any money what I'll do is I will pretend to be

what I'll do is I will pretend to be Vlad and then I will ask you to send

Vlad and then I will ask you to send Vlad money exactly so if someone does

Vlad money exactly so if someone does that it's me and you can send you can

that it's me and you can send you can feel free knowing it's no I'm just

feel free knowing it's no I'm just kidding make me Rich

there you go did you find your

go did you find your sources oh yeah it's the ones I gave uh

sources oh yeah it's the ones I gave uh it was uh my telegram my Twitter my nost

it was uh my telegram my Twitter my nost and my YouTube so they're also if you

and my YouTube so they're also if you just go to super tn.org and click social

just go to super tn.org and click social they're listed all right there right and

they're listed all right there right and you've asked me directly and I will do

you've asked me directly and I will do this to put the CH analysis video in the

this to put the CH analysis video in the description thank you

description thank you I also put your Social Links any

I also put your Social Links any anything anything else or is that does

anything anything else or is that does that wrap does that wrap it up any more

that wrap does that wrap it up any more questions from the audience so my real

questions from the audience so my real shame I don't have any questions of

shame I don't have any questions of myself and there's someone who just said

myself and there's someone who just said in the chat I'm tinkering with BDK

in the chat I'm tinkering with BDK tonight I'm not sure what BDK is Bitcoin

tonight I'm not sure what BDK is Bitcoin development kit yeah that's what it is I

development kit yeah that's what it is I haven't tinkered with it um but it's I

haven't tinkered with it um but it's I think it's sounds good I like developer

think it's sounds good I like developer kits or actually I don't even use

kits or actually I don't even use developer kits but I think they're

developer kits but I think they're they're great for people who like them

they're great for people who like them so good on you try it out let me know

so good on you try it out let me know what you think I didn't I don't know why

what you think I didn't I don't know why You' let me know I don't have anything

You' let me know I don't have anything to do with it but in case you want to

to do with it but in case you want to let me know thank you to the 1,400

let me know thank you to the 1,400 people who watch this on live stream

people who watch this on live stream it's really cool I hope it was 1,400

it's really cool I hope it was 1,400 because Twitter reports I guess everyone

because Twitter reports I guess everyone who joins but doesn't count who actually

who joins but doesn't count who actually stays so those are the people who

stays so those are the people who clicked I'm not sure if they stayed but

clicked I'm not sure if they stayed but I do hope that they did and also thanks

I do hope that they did and also thanks to to the sponsors once again layer 2

to to the sponsors once again layer 2 lab craa ci. no ones and

lab craa ci. no ones and huddling thank you super testet for your

huddling thank you super testet for your time and everything that you do I love

time and everything that you do I love your energy and I love your projects and

your energy and I love your projects and I look forward to seeing you in person

I look forward to seeing you in person at some conference see you soon bye- bye

at some conference see you soon bye- bye everybody

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Transkrip YouTube:S16 E6: Super Testnet on Lightning Network vs Monero