Inflammation, a widespread health issue causing various symptoms like fatigue and joint pain, is not an inevitable or mysterious condition but rather originates from a compromised gut barrier, which can be addressed and reversed.
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So Chuck, I can honestly give you an
answer of where inflammation comes from
in two words. [music] Okay? It is not a
mystery anymore. This is what every
single one [music] of us needs to hear.
All right, everybody. Quick question. If
inflammation is causing joint pain,
brain fog, fatigue, autoimmune diseases,
why don't most doctors know where it
actually comes from? Because today on
the Gut Insiders, Dr. B is going to
argue that inflammation isn't bad luck.
It isn't just getting older. Heck, it
isn't even inevitable. It has a starting
point. It starts somewhere very
specific. And once you see it, you can't
unsee it. So, if you are new here, this
is the show where we break down gut
health, microbiome science, and what
your body is really trying to tell you
without the nonsense. I'm your host with
the patient perspective, Chuck Carroll.
And with me is gastroenterenterologist,
New York Times bestselling author, and
the man who somehow made farts
educational, Dr. Will Bullowitz. What's
up, man?
>> I still can't believe that episode
worked as well as it did. And I honestly
can't believe that on the very first
episode of The Gut Insiders, I dropped
the word ars.
>> You did multiple times if I'm not
mistaken. But [laughter] listen, here's
here's the the God's honest truth about
it. If you can explain farts, man, you
can explain anything. And today we're
going even bigger than gas. We're
talking about inflammation. Everybody's
talking about it. It's kind of become a
buzzword, but few people understand what
it actually is. Yeah. No. And this it's
an important word, right? I mean, we're
we're going from a small problem to the
biggest of big problems. And you know,
inflammation has been this vague scary
word. But when you understand where it
actually comes from,
you realize it's not mysterious at all.
Oh, we have the ability to demystify it, Chuck.
Chuck.
>> And that's exactly what we're going to
be doing today. We're pulling back that
curtain, finding out what inflammation
really is, why it sticks around, and
what your gut has to do with it. So, let
me ask you this just hypothetical
question. If I was to put on my old
reporter hat and do a man on the street
style interview with somebody and I
asked, "Where does inflammation actually
come from?" What do you think most
people would say? Honestly, they'd
probably say aging, stress,
stress,
genetics that you were born with,
bad luck.
Honestly, and if you asked me that
question 10 years ago, I would have
given you a long meandering answer that
didn't really explain anything even
though I was fully trained as a medical doctor.
doctor.
>> Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. even even
you like I think inflammation in the gut
like really have been going hand inand
for a lot longer like it's it's kind of
blowing my mind right now that this is
something you didn't even understand.
Yeah. I mean Chuck I went to medical
school. I went through eight years of
training after medical school.
I was already in practice treating
people with chronic inflammatory health conditions.
conditions.
But if you came up to me and you said to
me, "Hey Dr. B, where does inflammation
come from?"
would have probably said something like,
"Look, as we get older, our bodies
become more inflamed."
And like, clearly it's worse if you sit
on the couch and eat bon bonss all day. [laughter]
[laughter]
>> That's uh that's not really satisfying, man.
man.
>> No, but that's, you know, that's kind of
like it's crazy to imagine that that was
my understanding of inflammation being a
fully trained medical doctor actually
treating people with these chronic
inflammatory health conditions. And you
know, I mean, honestly, it's vague. Um,
it doesn't give people a clear target.
It it doesn't tell you how to address
it. But here's the good news, Chuck.
Like, a lot has changed. And this is
this is like something I see as
tremendously important
over this over the last six years. We're
talking after after I finished writing Fiberfueled.
Fiberfueled.
I have learned so much and I've been
deep diving into the science and I've
realized something.
No, here it comes. Here it comes. Wait
for it.
>> Okay, so Chuck, I can honestly give you
an answer of where inflammation comes
from in two words. >> Okay,
>> Okay,
>> the gut.
>> I mean, that's that's a pretty big
claim, dude. The gut. Two words sums it up.
up.
>> Two words sums it up. And we we in this
episode are going to fully unpack this.
It is not a mystery anymore. This is the
answer. This is what every single one of
us needs to hear.
>> The I mean, obviously, you're you're the
gut guy and and I think that we we do
need to unpack this. I mean, let me
throw you kind of a little bit of a
curveball question here. Like, is it
troublesome now that you've begun to
understand inflammation and its causes
um that people are throwing this around
and and they don't fully understand what
it means? I mean, look, if you go into
the internet, you're going to find
conversations that aren't necessarily
evidence informed. That's just reality, right?
right?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Um, so ultimately, we have a
responsibility to identify who are our
trusted experts, right? Where are our
sources of truth?
And I'm here today having deep dived
into this topic for several years. I'm
excited. I'm eager to basically share
what I've learned where inflammation is
not this nebulous archaic concept that
we have no clue what's going on there.
There is an answer to what's going on.
Again, I said it the gut. I'm not taking
it back. And the beauty of it, Chuck, is
there's an opportunity there in the gut.
This is where optimism lives. This is
where hope lives. This is where we can
change things. This is where how you
feel today doesn't mean this is how you
feel tomorrow.
>> That's what I'm talking about.
>> Yeah, man. I I love that. And so let's
let's dive in, man. Let's start
unpacking this. Um, true or false, when
when we talk about inflammation, there's
another term that comes up a lot, and
that's a term called leaky gut. Those
two things kind of go hand inand as
well. So, let's let's slow this down.
Let's start to unpack it. So, when
people hear the phrase leaky gut, I
mean, half of folks like start to roll
their eyes. I think part of that may be
because they don't understand what that
means either.
>> Yeah. I mean, the term does get
overused. There's things that are said
on the internet around these terms leaky
gut that are not true. But I think that
we should take a step back. Let's reset
and let's talk about what this actually
means in plain English. Your gut lining
it is a selective barrier. Okay. So
basically it's this single layer of
cells and its job is to let the good
stuff through. So like nutrients like
vitamins and amino acids. But at the
same time it basically needs to like
keep the bad stuff out. So this would be
pathogens, bacterial toxins. We can't
let that across the gut barrier because
then it could get into the bloodstream
and that can create serious issues. So
the the gut lining has a really
important job.
>> It it does like you're kind of painting
the picture. It makes me think of like
TSA, right? Airport security. You're
going through, they're looking at
everything. They're going to kick some
stuff out. They're going to kick certain
people out of line. They're going to
take stuff out of the bag and then the
rest of the good stuff gets to go through.
through.
>> Yeah. So when the gut barrier is working
well, the immune cells, they stay calm.
And you know, Chuck, it's kind of like
having a TSA, right, and having airport
security that's on the other side,
right? That airport security, they're
there. They're doing their job, and they
don't have to do anything as long as the
as long as the uh the security
checkpoint does its job and doesn't let
anything bad through. The problem is that
that
the gut barrier
can lose its capacity to do its job. And
this can happen when it's damaged or
it's been under put under stress. And
so, and when that happens, like this
would be like an overwhelmed TSA.
Bacterial fragments can slip through
things that weren't supposed to get
across, they get across, right? And this
is what we would call le we got but I
might call it increased intestinal permeability.
permeability.
And what I'm talking about getting
across right now when I say bacterial
fragments is something very specific
called lipopolysaccharide
or LPS. And this is important Chuck
because LPS
and the human immune system have been
locked in an evolutionary arms race for
hundreds of millions of years. And just
to contextualize that, we as humans, we
have only existed for about 3 million
years. What I'm saying is that basically
there are immune cells and there is LPS
and they have been they've been fighting
each other for much longer than we have
existed as humans. Wow. Our immune
system is hardwired
even before birth to recognize our
immune system is taught to recognize LPS
as a threat. that is a bad thing and
it's going to respond aggressively when
it sees it outside the gut. And and we
know just how powerful this signal is in
humans because like for example, Chuck,
they did a controlled clinical study
where researchers injected like they
actually injected this LPS in a purified
form into the bloodstream of healthy volunteers.
volunteers.
And here's what happened
within hours. their inflammatory markers
like interlucan 6 and tumor necrosis
factor alpha rose sharply right so
you're basically triggering inflammation
but here's the part that like really
caught my attention in this study is
that inflammation so basically you
inject the LPS inflammation skyrockets
and then within hours
their metabolism starts to collapse
insulin sensitivity
drops by about 25 I'm sorry 35%.
That's not diabetes yet.
But basically, this is how you get to
diabetes. You've jacked up the
metabolism. The takeaway is that by
simply exposing the bloodstream to this
LPS, even briefly, that's enough to
create significant inflammation and
metabolic disruption even in people who
are totally healthy. But in everyday
life, LPS, it doesn't come from
injections. It comes from the gut.
Because LPS is basically this armor that
covers bacteria like EC coli,
salmonella, shikella. And when that
exposure from the gut is small but
constant, the immune system never gets
to stand down.
>> And that then all of that creates inflammation.
inflammation.
>> Exactly. And so here's the picture that
I want you and everyone else who's with
us to hold on to. Your gut is about 20
to 25 feet long. It is lined by a single
layer of cells. The surface area of what
we're talking about lining your
intestines is the size of a small
compartment. And every single cell matters.
matters.
When the barrier holds and does its job,
the immune system stays quiet. But when
it falters, LPS can cross. And every
single crossing along that entire
surface area on a microscopic cellular
level, every single crossing triggers an
immune response against this ancient
enemy. So when you repeat this time and
time and time, that's what we call
chronic low-grade inflammation.
>> All right. So honestly, here's where I
get confused. I mean, aside from all of
the big medical words that some
[laughter] of them sounded downright
sinister to me, uh here's where where I
do get confused. Um, inflammation
clearly, as you're pointing out, starts
in the gut. But then why wouldn't it
just stop once people start to eat better?
better?
>> You've just exposed the trap.
You just exposed the trap. Uhoh. This is
what we would call the inflammation
trap. Because it's important to understand
understand
inflammation doesn't just come from gut damage.
damage.
It actually creates gut damage.
Is that kind of like a snowball effect
where it just kind of feeds itself? It
builds on itself.
>> Yeah, exactly. And this this isn't just
a theory. We actually see this in human
research. So, for example, Chuck, a
study that was published in Nature
Microbiology, this is a highly
prestigious journal, showed that when
the gut is inflamed,
the microbiome itself changes in a
really important way.
>> So, what what kind of a change are we
talking about here?
>> All right. So like in this inflamed
environment you have beneficial
microbes. These are the fiberloving
ones. They are the ones that produce
butyrate which are the short- chain
fatty acids that are powerfully
anti-inflammatory. And by the way
butyrate is what repairs and restores
the gut barrier.
But in the inflamed environment those
beneficial bacteria they actually stop
doing the job that we rely on them for.
They are forced to shift into survival mode.
mode.
Basically, they either fall off or they
go dormant and they stop functioning.
They produce less butyrate,
they are unable to support the gut
microbiome which is trying to heal.
Like basically what's happening with
these microbes when they're in the
context of inflammation,
it's a little bit like what happens to
us when we're sick. So, like I don't
know about you, Chuck, but when I get
sick, I'm a shell of the man that I am
when I'm feeling strong and healthy.
>> I think pretty much everyone is, despite
what it, you know, whatever they try to
tell you. But, um, it sounds like what
you're saying is those microbes, those
are the ones that really help to keep
that barrier intact.
>> Exactly. So, you need healthy microbes
doing their job to support and nurture
the gut barrier to protect the immune
system. But the problem is that you
create inflammation with the immune
system which ultimately affects the
microbes which leads to breakdown of the
gut barrier which creates more
inflammation. That is the inflammation trap
[snorts]
>> and and and that just it sounds brutal
to me man. It's just more inflammation
piled on more inflammation piled on more
inflammation does not sound like a lot
of fun to me. It is brutal. And it also
explains things that I see from people
all the time, which is that they might
say, "I'm eating healthy, but I still
feel I still feel like I'm inflamed." So
like the problem is they're trying to
rebuild a house while the foundation is
still cracking. You have to calm
inflammation and restore the microbiome
at the same time. Otherwise, this loop
keeps running.
>> All right, man. Well, let's let's talk
about this cuz I think that there's
probably a lot of people watching this
right now who like literally have their
minds blown. Like I mean, I have been
doing all the right things. I've been
eating this really ultra clean diet and
I still feel like garbage every single
day. So, let's let's get practical about
this, right? Give us a list. Like, how
would somebody be able to identify
whether or not they're actually stuck in
this loop?
>> Real quick before we jump into that,
Chuck, I want to hear from you. like how
how are you responding to what you're
hearing right now? Have you experienced
anything like this?
>> Uh, very much so. I mean, I've been open
with with my struggles and and I have a
complex case, which, you know, honestly
is why I'm so excited to do this show
with you beyond the fact that you and I,
you know, were just friends and and this
is fun, but it's like it's helping me
understand what's been going on with me
for the past three years. And to be
perfectly honest with you, like I have
felt like a fraud because of the success
of the other show and my notoriety in
the plant-based space. And yet having
struggled silently for two out of those
three years with just massive amounts of
inflammation and digestive issues and
brain fog and fatigue and and and and
even joint pain. And you know, it's it's
just been sickening to be perfectly
honest with you.
>> Yeah. Gosh, I'm sorry. I mean, obviously
as a friend, you know, I you and I have
had many conversations about this and it
hates like it it pains me to see my
friends struggling with the things that
you've been dealing with. Um yet at the
same time I'm very proud of you because
not only are you perseverant in your approach
approach
um and resilient, but you also have the
audacity and the gall to turn to the
public and basically say, "Hey, look, I
don't know if I can help you with my
story, but if I can, I will. So here it
is." and and brother I mean that that
has been the most refreshing part of
this is like if you believe in a
purpose-driven life. I feel like I was
given this illness because of my
platform and I've heard from hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds of people
honest to God who have similar crazy
symptoms that doctors are struggling to
diagnose and it seems like no matter
what it is they try they just can't seem
to hammer it down. And and let me put
this into perspective for you. like I am
seeing the top doctors in the country.
I'm being treated right now at the Mayo
Clinic and it has still taken a very
long time to finally get to the point
where we think that we have a good idea
of what's going on and have a clear path
forward for treatment and and and these
cases can be ultra complex and so
hopefully in a future episode we can
really start to unpack everything that's
going on. I don't want to make this
episode about me, but when it comes to
the gut and inflammation, as a
gastroenterenterologist, you you guys
have to know how complicated a lot of
these cases actually can be.
>> Yeah. Um,
they are. and solutions aren't
necessarily simple and straightforward.
But part of what we have the ability to
do is to
talk through these types of stories here
on the Gut Insiders podcast because
there's going to be people who are
listening. They're going to take away a
moment and it may not be something that
you and I even realize how important it
is for them. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And it's this aha moment and they're
like, "There it is. That's the thing I
was searching for. That's what I needed
to hear and it changes everything. So,
we're going to continue to create aha
moments together, my brother. And um I
do appreciate you um being willing to
come forward and share generously and
openly on a topic that I have to imagine
it's not so easy to discuss. So, anyway,
all right.
>> Let's Yeah, let's let's let's not get
all, you know, let's not start the
waterworks and stuff, but I appreciate
everything that you've done for me, but
let's let's give back to the people.
That's what we are men of the people,
brother. So, let's let's talk about this
inflammation trap and and how somebody might
might
>> like try to discern whether or not
they're stuck in this loop.
>> Yeah. So, I'm going to I'm Chuck, I'm
going to give you five what I see as
five signs of the inflammation trap.
Okay? Now, you're not necessarily going
to say yes to all five, but you don't
need to. You're not going to have all
five at the same time. These are not
diagnosis. These are clues that your
body is stuck in this loop, this this
vicious cycle, right, that we're calling
the inflammation trap.
>> And as I go through these five, Chuck, I
would love to hear from you your
thoughts. But at the same time, right
now, I'm turning to our listeners who
are at home engaging with us. And I just
want you, the listener, to consider in
your own life, does this fit you? You
can shout at us. You can shout at us.
You can also DM us right through social
media or you can drop comments down
below and tell us how these specific
things fit in your own life. Okay. So,
but Chuck, because I have you here, I'm
going to direct this towards you.
>> Yes, sir.
>> All right. Cool. So, the first that I
would say is you eat clean, but you
still feel like trash. You still feel
fatigued. You still feel inflamed. Have
you experienced that, Chuck?
To this day, my friend, to this very
day, I can eat something, you know, as
healthy as a spinach and arugula salad
with tomatoes, maybe a little bit of
sliced avocado, super clean, a little
balsamic on there, like really low fat,
high, you know, nutrient density, and I
will walk away feeling like garbage, my friend.
friend.
>> Yes. So, we have in a way I'm everything
that you just described as your diet is
a beautiful, wonderful diet.
Unfortunately, the problem is that is
not sufficient for us to break this
loop, break the inflammation trap,
right? So, you should absolutely do what
you are describing.
Maybe in some cases modifications become
required. I'm not trying to say that
like it's always just pure plans and
that's it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But the the point from my perspective
though is that clearly there's more.
Clearly there is something more that
needs to be fulfilled in order to guess
get you where we want you to go. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> All right. The second thing I would say
is that symptoms can jump throughout the
body, right? So we think of the body as
like as like systems, right? Where it's
like I'm a gastronologist. I deal with
the gut. A cardiologist deals with the
heart. A a rheatologist deals with
joints, right? It could be your gut one
month, it could be your joints the next.
Have you have you felt symptoms jumping around?
around?
>> Yeah, man. And it was really early on in
my experience when I was actually going
to an allergist like saying, "Well,
maybe this is an allergy thing." And
he's like, "Oh, man. you've got a case
of the all overs. So, it's like one day,
you know, I'll have like really intense
heartburn. The next day, it's like
wicked bad bloating. The day after that,
it's like this crazy like, and this is
the weirdest one, like almost a neurologic
neurologic
thing where it's it's like brain fog,
but on steroids, where it's brain fog,
but also the feeling of of almost being
like drunk or stoned. It's like you've
had too much cold medicine. It's like
you're there, but you're not there. And
very rarely do the symptoms overlap.
It's like you have one or the other.
It's the craziest damn thing.
>> Yeah. So, you know, again, you go to
five different doctors for those
symptoms that you just described. They
would give you five different diagnoses
and provide five different medications,
but what would be missing is that
they're all tied back to the same story,
right? Which is inflammation.
>> And so, these are different
manifestations of inflammation. They're
affecting different systems. You have
one body. Your body doesn't care that
there's different doctors for different
specialties. The body doesn't care,
right? It's one body. And that one body,
by the way, is responsive also to your
environment. So, you are very integrated
into your environment, which actually
which actually is sort of like the point
for my number three,
which is that like things in things that
are happening beyond just what's on the
plate, like stress in our life, right?
Or disrupted sleep. you're not sleeping
well. Make things worse.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's for dag
on sure. And it's interesting that right
before I got sick um that was
potentially the most stressful period of
my entire life. So much going on um
behind the scenes. Number one, you know,
the career was really flourishing and
and you know, there's a lot of stress
that comes from trying to be at the top
of your game. Number two, like with my
family, there was just so much going on.
Um, you know, that we don't have to
unpack here, but obviously stressed out
didn't do me any good. But when we're
stressed, at least for me, my reaction
was not to sleep more and shut down. My
reaction was actually to sleep less and
to keep pushing and and try to get
through. And that really only made
everything worse. and and certainly
there's a lot of stress with being
chronically ill, you know, and so I I
know that if I'm in a stressful
situation now for whatever reason or I
don't get a good night's sleep, then I'm
going to feel even worse the next day.
Like those are just cold hard facts,
man. Yeah. So really what we're kind of
talking about here is the concept of
resilience. So when your body is in a
position of strength, then there's a
resilience that naturally exists where
you could you could deal with stress and
you're okay.
>> You can deal with a bad night's rest and
you're okay, right? And that's not
enough to totally upend you. But the
problem is that when the system is
already broken down and weak and
failing, it's going to fail harder. It's
going to fail harder. It has there's
nothing left to give. It's already
broken down. Right? So, and that's and
that that is the issue that we run into
where these kinds of perturbations,
stress, poor sleep, whatever it might
be, are enough to kind of tip tip you
over the edge. By the way, this is uh
quite heavily covered in chapter six of
my new book about circadian rhythm and
chapter eight, which is about the brain
gut connection. So, just shouting that
out because like we [clears throat]
could we're not going to do that today,
but we could double click and deep dive
those topics even further by the way
because there is an explanation for why
that's happening. I think we should. I
think we should.
>> Yeah. Well, okay. So, if I'm going to
give you one word and then we can we can
pick this up at another conversation
later on, Chuck. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> The one the one word is cortisol. So,
cortisol is what explains the poor sleep
because you're stressed out. Cortisol is
what explains how stress ultimately
impacts your body in a negative way.
>> Yeah. And and my doctors have said that
like I'm basically chronically stuck in
fight orflight mode. And that's why, you
know, it's it's weird, man. I don't want
to do the deep dive now, but there's so
much I want to say, but I'll just leave
it at this. They explained to me that
even if I sleep for eight hours, it's
not quality sleep. And because of that,
your body's still not able to
rejuvenate, recover, you know, um, and
and rebound just because you're stressed
out even when you're asleep.
>> Fight or flight mode is is synonymous
with the term sympathetic activation or
sympathetic overdrive. That is your
autonomic nervous system,
right? Your body is basically switched
on and unable to go into rest mode,
digest mode, recovery mode. That's the
problem is when you're living in that
space, there's consequences. So, and
that's basically what's happening there,
Chuck. We we'll deep dive that in
another episode, but
>> Yes, sir.
>> All right. Here's another one for you.
Um, have you ever had it where you react
you like you have foods that you used to
be able to tolerate and all of a sudden
you find that you can't anymore?
>> Oh, I'll give you one. Kimchi. I love
kimchi, but I just I cannot do it. Even
the smallest amount now bloat me to the
beeers, bro.
>> Well, to the beeers doesn't sound very
good, but I
>> I mean like the beeers is like I got a
good like six, seven month pregnant
belly happening, man. Like it's it's
crazy. a place in Stranger Things where
people don't want to go. You don't want
to find yourself in the beevers, [laughter]
[laughter]
>> the egg, the be upside down. You know,
>> that's that's a that's a clean way of
saying something really dirty almost. It
sounds like, you know,
>> I mean, I bro Yeah. If I ever write my kids
kids
>> Yeah. If if I ever write a book, it's
it's not going to be filled with words
like beebras. I'm putting it all out
there. It's gonna be like
>> it's gonna be shorter about four letters.
letters.
>> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
>> Right. But you know what? I think I'm
gonna teach my kids that Uncle Chuck
says the beeers as a as is a good word.
And I think it's okay. That's a good
clean word to use that says the same thing.
thing.
>> Yeah. All right. Sorry.
>> Okay. Cool. Um but but the the point
here though is that like you used to
tolerate these foods. Now you're
struggling with these foods. Your gut
microbiome has changed, right? The
inflammation trap where basically the
inflammation has now disrupted your
microbiome. Because your microbiome is
disrupted. Disrupted. It's struggling to
do its job, which is to help you to
process and digest your food. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> that's what's happening there.
>> All right. Uh,
>> last but not least,
uh, have you ever experienced this where
like you improve ever so briefly and
then you fall right back in and like relapse?
relapse?
>> Uh, that's a loop in itself right there,
man. Um, I'll actually every so often
have a string of like two or three days
where I almost feel normal again and
then it's just like bam, you get hit by
a truck again. You get run over and and
the cycle just repeats itself.
>> Okay, so this gets back to this concept
of resilience that I was discussing a
moment ago, which is that like basically
you improve briefly. Basically, what
this means is that you're teetering on
the edge. It's like a tipping point and
you just ever so slightly tipped it in
your favor and started to recover and
then boom, the thing knocks you over
again and you're right back to where you
started. Right? So there's a there's a
vulnerability that's there. So
ultimately we have to disrupt the cycle
and we have to not only not only repair,
we have to repair to the point that it
is strong, it is resilient, and it's not
going to break down so quickly and
easily. So but you know the message here
to you. So Chuck, you're five for five
on these. That's not something that I
want to hear. I hate that.
>> I mean, I wish it was baseball and I was
headed for the Hall of Fame, but yeah. [laughter]
[laughter]
>> So, well, we're gonna work on making
this Z over five, right? Which won't get
you in the Hall of Fame of baseball, but
it will get you a Hall of Fame in terms
of your health. >> Um,
>> Um,
>> we're going to work on that. And but
also for the listeners at home, like,
you know, we're not like we're not we're
not trying to be five for five here. We
want you to be as few as possible, but
for many of you, I I would imagine that
what you're hearing is helping you to
understand your body and what and things
that have happened. And so, and that's
what really matters. That's what the
show is really all about. So, and and it
doesn't it doesn't mean that you're
broken, right? It just means that we
haven't fully reset your system.
>> All right. Well, big big question for
you then, man. Um, how do we begin to
break this loop? Basically, what you
want to do is if we could just repair
the gut barrier,
right? If you could repair the gut
barrier, then what's going to happen is
you're going to calm the immune system
and simultaneously protect your microbiome,
microbiome,
right? You need to disentangle there.
Like basically the inflammation is
creating a microbiome problem and then
the microbiome problem is creating inflammation,
inflammation,
>> right? And if we could just repair the
barrier that's in between them, they
will manage themselves. They will calm
down and they will be okay.
>> So some of the things that I um think
are important are like number one, we
want to eat the proper food, right? What
does that look like? Forget dietary labels.
labels.
Do they serve a purpose? Sure.
vegan, vegetarian, Mediterranean, pescatarian,
pescatarian,
plant-based. Do they serve a purpose?
Sure. Do they create more stress than
they're worth? Yes. Do they actually
define a health healthy diet? No. Here's
what I say. Like truly, because you can
you can you can take any dietary concept
and make it healthy or make it trash.
Chuck, what matters is quality. M
>> if you eat quality, you're going to be
in a good spot. I [snorts] have
identified what I call the four workh
horses of plantpowered nutrition that if
you get these four things, you have
everything that you need for an
anti-inflammatory diet,
>> right? It doesn't matter what you call it.
it.
>> Lay it out, man. What are they?
>> Number one, what's my favorite nutrient, Chuck?
Chuck?
Uh, coffee. [laughter]
[laughter]
it. Darn it. Darn it. You got me.
>> I know for a fact. Like, in all
seriousness, man, you are huge.
>> This is the problem when you do a
podcast with with with a very very close
friend is they know you so well that
they can pull your pants down on the
[laughter] YouTube.
All right. That ain't right, Chuck. I'm
a nice guy to you, Chuck.
>> I love you, too, brother. But, all
right, brother. I mean, look, I'm
sitting here talking having a cup of
coffee with you, but it is fiber. Like, no.
no.
>> And your coffee, your coffee has fiber
in it. That's an interesting thing. So,
>> it's part of what makes it healthy,
right? So, fiber is number one. The
second thing you'll find in that cup of
coffee are polyphenols.
>> So, polyphenols are responsible for the
colors of our food. And believe it or
not, coffee is the number one source of
polyphenols in the American diet, which
is crazy. It shouldn't be.
>> It shouldn't be, but it is. And so I
mean I love a good cup of coffee but
like we should be eating more colorful
food. That's the bottom line. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> Right. So um the third thing is healthy fat.
fat.
And by healthy fat I'm referring to the
fat that exists in avocados and nuts and
seeds and extra virgin olive oil. And
those are also the the longchain omega-3
fats that exist in fish and shellfish.
And like you know ultimately we may have
our ethical leanings and that's
important but we also need to be clear
on what are healthy choices. Healthy
choices include healthy fats. And so um
so those are some of the options that we
have right there.
>> Right. And you just got to choose what
works best for you.
>> Healthy fats should be another episode
unto its own uh in the future because
there's certainly a lot to unpack there too.
too.
>> Yeah. We can dig into that. I mean like
from from my perspective I'm I I don't
believe that it's fair to vilify any
macronutrient. So whether we're talking
about protein, carbohydrates, or fats,
there are good ones, there are bad ones.
If you focus on good ones, you have
improved the quality of your diet and
you will be healthy as a result of that.
Period. End of story. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. All right. Number four, the one
that's missing, even in people who have
a healthy diet and they think their diet
is amazing and they're very proud of
themselves, but you're missing this one.
Let's be honest, it's fermented food.
>> So, and that's not just kimchi. There's
lots of choices, right? So, and that
that includes, of course, sauerkraut,
but also pickles and kombucha and water
cafir. And if you consume dairy
products, it would include yogurt, like
Greek yogurt, or it would include kefir.
Um, and it also includes tempeh and miso
and sourdough bread. Like, these are all
wonderful things. We need more of that.
I'm a big fan of uh you know, at least
for me, the non-dairy stuff, like big
fan. Uh I I often forget that pickles
would fall into that category. I still
enjoy a good dill pickle, man. Like
nothing beats that on a hot day.
>> Yeah. So, you just got to make sure that
it's like actually a fermented pickle
because I'm talking about fermented. And
so and and the key here is that if the
number one or two ingredient is vinegar,
that's that's a that's pickled in the
sense that you take cucumbers, you pour
vinegar over the top, you got your
pickle. That's the end of the story.
>> All right.
>> Whereas, right, kind of like pickled
onions, like if you pour I mean, they're
delicious, don't get me wrong.
>> I'm not an onion guy at all. That's a
debate for another day, but if you say so.
so.
>> That's kind of That one kind of caught
me off guard there, Chuck.
>> What? The fact that I don't like onions.
I've been on the record about that for a
very long.
>> Any any onions? Any onions?
>> Doesn't matter. Vidalia red.
>> Raw. Raw. Cooked.
>> You don't like when they get sweet.
>> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Delicious.
Delicious.
>> I don't understand people's obsession
with the damn onion. I don't understand
it. Like, and people put that on
everything. It's like hot sauce. Like,
no. No. Like, your salad does not need
an onion. Well, I suppose I suppose the
one thing is that we did discuss during
the fart episode that audience are a
source of sulfur compounds that make
your farts [laughter]
that make your farts smell. So, what
basically what you have just announced
to the international public is that your
your farts must smell like patunia.
>> They do. They do indeed. >> Ah,
>> Ah,
>> and and no comments from over here. I
>> All right, man. Let's get back to it. So
those those are the things.
>> All right. So those are the four. Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> All right. So but like um uh it's
important also for people to hear that
nutrition isn't the only thing that
matters for our health.
>> So like I I think that there are
opportunities for healing that exist in
many places. So one of them is
reestablishing rhythm within our life,
right? And like if I could use one word,
the word would be consistency.
Create patterns. So have a morning
routine, have an evening routine, try to
be consistent with your meal times. If
you do that, you are ahead of 99% of
people because 99% of us, close to 100%.
Life is archaic. We're not thinking
about these things, but our body wants
to know what we're going to do and when
we're going to do it. And if you are
consistent with the timing of things,
that natural rhythm on a day-to-day
basis will be rewarded because your body
will know, hey, Dr. B likes to do this
at this time. Chuck likes to do this at
this time. And it will step up to meet
the moment to support you and help you
do it best.
>> And and that I mean again, like that's
an episode unto itself is like how do
you get into these rhythms? I mean, like
life can be so chaotic and I think it
takes a lot of discipline to to get
there. Even though um as you're going to
continue to explain here, I'm sure this
comes with tremendous upside if you're
able to accomplish that.
>> Okay. Tremendous upside. Chuck, all of
these things that we're discussing
today, I'm going to put this out. I'm
going to put this out to the people. You
You
Because if there's inflammation, you
have been feeling that the fatigue, the
brain fog, the difficulty concentrating,
the poor mood or feeling down or anxious,
anxious,
the skin changes, the gut symptoms,
joint symptoms, the poor recovery, the
poor exercise.
what I've just offered is you will feel
the difference. So what's uh what's one
way you asked me like okay so how do we
establish rhythm right? Well you know
it's very easy for me to sit here and be
like oh well if you literally add
nothing or subtract anything and you
literally just do everything
consistently at the same time every day.
You've done that. Okay, cool. Uh yeah,
you should try to do that if you can. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> here's here's what I would propose.
And this, by the way, has been
life-changing in my own life
and become a non-negotiable.
Create a one-hour morning routine.
Create a 1-hour evening routine
and acknowledge
in that 1-hour morning routine the
importance of exposure to light.
In a perfect world, I get you outside
within the first hour that you're awake.
Now, this time of year,
I get it because most of our listeners
are not in the southern hemisphere. By
the way, Australia, I love you. I love
you. But most people are in the northern
hemisphere where it's cold and it's dark.
dark.
If you can't get outside, then get a
light with 10,000 bucks
and turn it on when you wake up
immediately. All right? And if you do
this, you get that light exposure in a
perfect world outside.
I promise you, you will find that you
have more energy. You have more focus.
You have more cognitive endurance that day.
day.
That night, you will get tired about 14
hours after whatever time it was that
you saw the light. So, take that time,
call it 7:00 a.m. Add 14. Okay, now it's
9:00 p.m. Guess what? You're feeling
sleepy around 9:00 p.m. You're ready to
go to bed within an hour there. That's
because you set yourself up because you
told your body when the day starts. So
now it knows when the day ends.
And within a matter of days, there's a
reason why light therapy is the
preferred treatment for seasonal
effective disorder where your mood is
affected by the fact that you don't get
light. Within a number of days, your
mood will improve too. So what I'm
saying to everyone is like you will feel
the difference if you get that morning
light and then your evening routine.
Prioritize sleep. It's important.
Be consistent with your bedtime. Don't
be all over the place. Choose a time.
Try to do it plus or minus 30 minutes of
that time.
All right. When you feel tired, it's
ready. It's time to go down. And the
last thing to keep in mind is you want
to avoid light in the evening. So, most
of us are doing unnatural things like
holding devices this far away from our
face while we watch our television or we
have our laptop and we're hacking away
as I was last night, Chuck. But you
nonetheless, right? And it's going to
disrupt your sleep. It will drop your
melatonin levels by 30%.
>> Even if you put it into uh that you take
the blue light off of it or whatever,
you know, they've got the nighttime uh
setting on here. Does that help? Is
there any scientific research to back
that? Do you know?
>> It helps. It helps. The other thing you
could do is you could get blue light
blocking glasses. Those help too. But in
a perfect world, if you look, if you go
back to when our grandparents lived, or
frankly, not even that long ago, these
things didn't even exist. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> Right. So, um, and now here we are, and
all it is is light exposure, and that
light exposure is disrupting our sleep.
And then we're confused of why we don't
get a good night's rest. I just told you why.
why.
>> So, let Yeah. Well, let me let me ask
you this. Um, we've also talked today a
lot about uh the nervous system, man.
So, it's like for me, I'm having a real
hard time activating the parasympathetic
nervous system, man. But I know that
that's something that you actually talk
about quite a bit as well. So, what are
some things that we might try to calm
the system down there?
>> Right. So, you you said that uh remind
me of the exact language you used.
Didn't you say that your body was too
activated? Something like this.
>> Stuck in fight orflight mode. stuck in
fight or flight mode which is basically
synonymous with sympathetic overdrive. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. And that is basically your your
autonomic nervous system that like reacts
reacts
>> and and but the problem is that's
sacrificing your gut health in the
process. And when you sacrifice the gut
health, it creates inflammation. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. It feeds into the inflammation
trap. So, what we want to do is take the
foot off of the accelerator and gently
place it on the brake and slow it down
and put oursel into a position of
safety. Because when you feel safe, the
body is a able to actually recover,
right? You're able to actually digest
your food. You're actually resting for
real, right? Because you're not activated.
activated. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
So some of the strategies there's many
but like breath work so like
diaphragmatic breathing which I believe
is something that you were taught. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely.
>> Right. Uh meditation,
prayer, going into the sauna, yoga,
yoga,
zone 2 cardio, right? That means like
basically enough enough exercise to get
your heart rate up and make it hard for
you to sing, right? But enough that you
could still talk.
>> I know. Like even just going on the
treadmill, um slight incline, going
about three and a half, four miles an
hour, just a walk. Um when I do that
consistently, I tend to feel better,
right? That that believe it or not calms
the body down by stressing it just that
little bit that really helps. And the
breath work, man, more than anything has
been so powerful, man. I'll tell you a
quick story before we move on. being at
the Mayo Clinic and on the elevator
there with somebody who's, you know,
clearly a sports fan. He's got on a
Steelers hat, a Steelers jersey, and
he's like, "Man, I came here for gut
issues and they're like telling me, you
know, to try this breathing stuff." And
he's talking to his wife and I was
trying not to eavesdrop, but I I turned
to the guy. I was like, "Look, dude, I
used to cover the NFL for a living.
Like, I get where you're at and I know
that mentality, but trust me, bro. like
just drop the macho guard for a second
and give it a try and it's going to help
you. It's not going to cure you all the
way, but it's going to help you a good
25 to 30%. Um, if not more in the
moment. So, just like give it a try. And
like the way that he looked at me, he
was like really grateful, [laughter] you
know, to be given that advice, man. Um,
so I I feel very strongly about the
breath work, man. Very, very strongly.
>> Well, he needed to hear that, right? He
needed to hear that. And I think that
like the it sort of brings us back to a
core. So we've just kind of placed a
whole bunch of tools on the table,
right? So to the listeners at home, you
can go and you can select which of those
tools are the ones that you want to pick
up and introduce into your own life. But
the message that you just delivered to
that gentleman that he needed to hear is
that small choices
can lead to massive results. that you
don't need to look for the extreme choice.
choice.
>> That you don't need to make like to use
a sports analogy, you don't need to
throw a Hail Mary,
right? So, forget the extreme cleanses.
Forget the deprivation cycles. Forget
the things that seem like, oh, it's
going to I'm going to try to fix
everything in 30 days. Take the small
choice. Take the small win. Lean into
it. Make it a healthy habit. And then
stack on top of that. This is how you
build towards health. It's not about
perfection. And it's about creating
conditions where the gut and the immune
system can basically cool off and then
ultimately do their job much better.
>> All right, man. Well, real talk again as
we kind of wind down a little bit. Um,
often times the hardest step is the
first step because nobody really knows
how the heck to start anything. And so I
guess my question to you is where should
we be starting? Man,
>> look, we've been having this
conversation and like I've shared some
of the strategies that exist. Obviously,
this isn't all of them, but the bottom
line is that we want to repair and
restore the gut barrier, right? That's
what the conclusion that we've come to.
And this is exactly why I wrote my new
book, Plantpowered Plus, right? Where
basically by repairing everything is
evidence-based, focused on repairing and
restoring the gut barrier. And that
breaks the inflammation loop. So, this
book, it gives you the tools that you
need, the food, like what to eat, the
routines, the science, and it's all
bundled into a clear three-phase
protocol that makes it approachable,
manageable, and not overwhelming.
But the truth is, like whether or not
you pick up my book, that's not actually
the main message today. What I really
want you to hear is this. The gut and
the immune system are deeply intertwined.
intertwined.
We want to make them healthier.
We have to support both
with nourishing food, with consistent
daily rhythms, and with enough time to
rest and digest.
>> Oh, I love that, bro. I'm putting into
action a lot of what we talked about.
So, bring us home, my man. Bring us
home, Dr. B.
>> So, the big takeaway for today's episode
is that inflammation is not random. It
also is not inevitable, and it isn't
even mysterious.
In most people, this is a problem that
starts at the gut barrier. When you
protect the barrier, everything
downstream improves.
>> Inflammation isn't just something that
happens to you.
>> No, it's something your body is
responding to. But it is not inevitable.
You can change the signals coming from
the gut. And when you do, you don't just
quiet inflammation, you break the loop.
In fact, you can actually create the
opposite, Chuck, which is a rising loop
of health,
where the microbes support the gut
barrier, creating safe spaces for both
the microbes and the immune cells.
That's not an inflammation trap. That's resilience.
resilience.
>> Yeah, brother. Well, look, man, I
appreciate you. Seriously, I've learned
a ton today. So, let's just go ahead and
wrap all this up. uh put a put a bow on
this episode of the Gut Insiders. And so
you who's watching and listening right
now, if this helped you understand your
body in a new way, hit like, subscribe,
and share it with somebody who needs
clarity [music] without all of the
confusion. And we we will see you next
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