programmed by our early uh developmental experiences
experiences
speaking about our early experience is
the first word in the sort of subtitle
of your book is the word trauma
um it's a word that I've I've talked
about a lot on this podcast and I've you
know I've had a lot of people here that
have opened up about their traumas how
do you define trauma I know Society has
defined it in its own way but how do you
define it the word
I I Define it very specifically
um it's not something bad that happens
to you it's not some no it's not that
you know I went to this movie last night
and I was traumatized no you weren't you
were just sad or you were had some
emotional pain but you weren't traumatized
traumatized
trauma means a wound that's the literal
meaning of the word it's a Greek word
for wounding so trauma is a
psychological wound that you sustain
and um it behaves like a wound so on the
one hand
everyone if it's very raw if you touch
it it just really hurts so if I have a
wound around not being wanted then
then
or the belief that I'm not
then decades later if anything reminds
me of that it hurts as much as it did
when I originally incured the wound
so in in one sense trauma is an unhealed
wound that touched we get triggered
that's what triggering means by the way
some old wound gets activated or touched
and the other thing that happens to
wounds is that they scar over and Scar
Tissue has certain characteristics it's thick
thick
it has no nerve ending so there's no
feeling in it so people traumatize
disconnected from their feelings
um Sky tissue is rigid it's not flexible
so we lose kind of response flexibility
so when something happens we tend to
react in typical stereotypical predictable
predictable
dysfunctional ways because of the
rigidity and Scar Tissue doesn't grow
like healthy flesh so people are
traumatized tend to be stuck in
emotional states that characterized
their development when they were
traumatized so when somebody says to you
don't miss such a baby uh
doesn't sound very pleasant but there's
some truth to it it means that you're
probably reacting according to the lines
of someone that you sustained as an
infant and now you're you're reacting as
if that wound was happening all over
again this is what one of my friends in
the trauma World Peter Levine calls the
attorney of the past
so something happens in the present
and we react
as if we're back there in the past when
this first happened
and we're not in the present moment at all
all
and I was I was trying to figure out how
many people
um as a percentage of the population
have a
have trauma but then I I you know I read
this stat with 60 of adults um say that
they've had sort of a traumatic early
upbringing or whatever or traumatic
events from their childhood but then I
thought maybe everybody has trauma
it depends on um how we understand
trauma so if we understand trauma is
only the really terrible things that
happen to people which do happen to
people you know in the book I talked
about a British friend of mine but not
living in Canada
um they are a yoga teacher and a
meditation teacher and a psychologist
and an artist actually and they grew up
in some orphanage here in Britain where
they were racially taunted every every
morning you know words that are in the
book by her permission which I'm not
going to cite here publicly
and that gave her a sense of deficient a
sense of self that I'm just not good
enough that I don't belong and so on
there's those obvious traumas or the
obvious trauma of being sexually abused
so men who are sexually abused according
to Canadian study have tripled the rate
of heart attacks as adults you know and
all kinds of physiological reasons well
that should be the case so there's those
self-evident Lord big tea traumas that
we call Big tea terminal Cat TV the
capital T trauma with the capital T
there's a certain percentage of the
population much larger than we think
subject to that if you include
um All the known factors such as
physical sexual or emotional abuse
spanking by the way has not been shown
to be as traumatic as harsher forms of
physical abuse spanking which is still
recommended by so-called experts who
should be named remain unnamed for the
moment uh the death of a parent the
violence in a Family Violence parental
violence against each other a parent
being jailed
depending mentally ill
did I say apparent being addicted a
rancor's divorce these are the
identified Big traumas Big T traumas no
not to mention poverty
not to mention extreme inequality
war and so on
but then
if you remember that trauma is not what
happens to you but what happens inside you
you
this is the wound people can be wounded
not just by bad things happening to them
but small children can be wounded
in loving families
where they don't get their knees met
I mean that's obvious in the physical
sense if a child doesn't get proper nutrition
nutrition
their body will suffer their mind will suffer
suffer
we're also creatures with the emotional
needs as important as our physical needs
so when the child's emotional needs are
not met that child is wounded and that's
what we call small tea trauma which is
not the big ticket events such as I
described but just the child's need to
be loved unconditionally to be held when
distressed to be responded to to be seen
to be heard to be allowed their full
range of emotion without them being
stamped on in the name of so-called discipline
discipline [Music]
[Music] um
um
the right to play creatively
creatively
spontaneously out there in nature not
with these damn digital the gadgets that
subvert and hijacked the child's imagination
imagination
but spontaneous Play That's essential
for band development
so what I'm saying is that when these
needs are not for the
unconditional loving attachment
relationship when those needs are
frustrated children are also hurt and I
call that trauma as well because it
shows up later in life as the impact of
painful wounds
so drama in this Society for all kinds
of reasons is far more common than we
imagined from sitting here and speaking
to I don't know somewhere over 100
different people that come from all
walks of life but specifically people
that are successful in their Industries
and you talked about you know how
how
um an anomalous early upbringing can
create sort of abnormality in an adult a
lot of the people I sit here are
successful because of some kind of
abnormality or at least their
interpretation of some kind of early
event that caused them to have some sort
of abnormal belief about themselves that
they're not enough so they become a
billionaire or a gold medalist or
whatever it might be yeah one of the
things that I thought I could predict is
I thought I could if they told me I
thought after doing 100 episodes if they
told me the traumatic event they'd been
through I could predict the the outcome
in them but there's a disconnect there
because you know I'd sit here with a
guest who went through one of your tall
um capital T traumas like domestic
violence and one of them might become
incredibly angry yeah and one of them
might become the most peaceful loving
person I've ever met yeah and that
taught me that there's this thing in
between the event which is what you call
interpretation yeah and I found that
really I found that as that kind of
makes it really difficult to diagnose
well no look so the two examples you gave
gave um
um
that really peaceful person may be
really peaceful for genuinely good
reasons such as they've found the milk
of human love flowing through their
veins and they've had some spiritual
reconciliation with the world where they
may have lit genuinely learned
compassion for themselves and others but
they could also be very nice and
peaceful because they're suppressing
their healthy anger
because they're actually sitting on
their rage unconsciously which is going
to show up in a form of some kind of
Health manifestation I guarantee you
later on so you can't tell from the outside
outside
without asking some questions uh or I
can give you the example of a Donald Trump
Trump who
who
had a really traumatic childhood I mean
his father was a this as described by
his psychologist niece Mary Trump his
father Trump's father who is Mary's grandfather
grandfather
was a psychopath
and who really demeaned and harshly
treated their children
so Trump decides unconsciously
that by the way I'm not talking about
his policies here I'm not this is not a
political debate and in the book I point
out that his opponent was also
traumatized uh Hillary Clinton said this
is this is a uh ecumenical uh view of
trauma and politics and not choosing
sides I'm just saying that you can see
his trauma in every moment he opens his mouth
mouth
his grandiosities need to make himself
bigger more powerful aggressive and eat
as much as said in his autobiography
that the world is a horrible place a
doggy dog place where everybody was
after you everybody wants your wife and
your house and your wealth and this is
your friends
never mind your enemies but that's the
world he lives in though that world that
he lives in reflects his childhood home
he developed that world you
he came to it honestly you might say
because that's the world that he lived in
in
and he gets to be really successful in
this crazy world
you know financially although people
question you know was he really as big a
success as he says he was but he
certainly was successful politically if
by success you mean the attainment of power
power
his brother on the other hand Mary
Trump's father Trump's niece's father
drag himself to death
and they were both responses to the same
you can never say it's exactly the same
for two kids but there was that there
was a toxic home environment one ends up
dead as an alcoholic
the other ends up at the Pinnacle of power
um
and when I look at them both
I see dysfunction there significant
dysfunction here
so one of the one of those the
consequences of that early upbringing
was it materialized itself as sort of addiction
addiction
and the other got the same psychological
reinforcement or the thing missing from
power and work and money
Donald Trump learned that the way to
survive is to be aggressive and harsh
and competitive and to get the other
before they get to you
which is a faithful reproduction of his
early childhood experiences so for him
these were not choices so much as survival
survival
techniques and
uh when they talk about his lying
lying well
well
I don't know when he's lying or when
he's not but my sense is that often he
actually believes what he's saying and
actually he's a biographer or the person who
who
co-wrote his
cause the autobiographical the art of
the deal this this writer says that he's
never met anybody who is so capable of
believing something that's not true to
be true if he wants it to be true
now that's the mark of a traumatized child
child
you know a denial of reality
it is an inauguration there was a
certain number of people that came today
he couldn't stand it that there weren't
as many people there as came to Barack Obama's
Obama's
inauguration they were much smaller
number of people there
he created this reality where many more
people came to his inauguration
now what age behavior is that
that's a four-year-old but more kids
came to his party than my party that
can't be true
but that's Donald's way of dealing with reality
reality
it's not a moral failing as such that's
how he survived
and these survival
mechanisms for them get to form our
personalities and again in this world
sometimes they pay off
in certain ways
is that is that often the case with
pathological lies they've learned to lie
as a way to survive oh absolutely the
the German philosopher writer Nichi
Friedrich Nietzsche said people lie
their way out of reality who have been
hurt by reality
and so I've lied you know like when I
had my shopping addiction I relied Every
Day to my wife
you know and even afterwards when she
tried when she stopped trying to change
my behavior
I said just tell me
if you're going to show up you're going
to spend another thousand dollars on
I still couldn't because
because
I was so ashamed of it and so the lying
became like a
a way of survival for me defense against
reality it's a defense against reality
and is the defense against
um being judged
you know well that says something about
my childhood you know nobody's born a
liar as we say in this book there are
congenial Liars but there are no
congenital Liars no one day old baby
tells any lies no wonder your baby
pretends anything if we end up
pretending in any way at all to the
extent that we do it's because we have
to learn that's what we must do to survive
survive
you said something at the start when I
gave the example that I have this I sat
with a guest here who went through
domestic abuse yeah and they are the
calmest person and then you said well
maybe they're suppressing it and in fact
the minute you said that it reminded me
of something they said which is they
they said to me on this podcast that
they had
um angry outbursts all the time
so sometimes their child will come up to
them yeah
um and want to play when they're working
and they'll snap yeah and they're trying
to they're trying to deal with that yeah
that's what I meant that they're sitting
on this um
um
creator of volcanic crater of anger
which sometimes bursts out of them so
their their demeanor is like a really
developed suppressed
um way of handling rage
which rage when they were children had
they expressed would have got them into
more trouble so suppressing it
repressing it
became their survival it's all about
survival you see so it became their
survival mechanism no
that person as long as they keep it that
way they're
at risk
their risk for mental health diagnosis
like depression
because what what is depression it means
you're pushing something down that's
what it means what to be pushed down
our natural emotions why do we push them
down because we have to to survive so
that that person I don't know I can't
prognosticate what's going to happen to
them but if they don't work it out
in general
they're at risk for some kind of mental
or physical manifestation that's my experience
experience
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expressing one's emotions and something you've talked about in this book but
you've talked about in this book but also previously is this idea that there
also previously is this idea that there is such a thing as healthy anger yeah um
is such a thing as healthy anger yeah um it's one of the seven A's of your of
it's one of the seven A's of your of healing as you say the first being the
healing as you say the first being the topic a topic we've talked about already
topic a topic we've talked about already which is acceptance yeah
which is acceptance yeah um the next being awareness well
um the next being awareness well awareness I wish we had put into this
awareness I wish we had put into this book but we didn't not into this book uh
book but we didn't not into this book uh in this book I booked Four A's and uh I
in this book I booked Four A's and uh I left that awareness and that was an
left that awareness and that was an Omission on my part really yeah it was
Omission on my part really yeah it was I'm sorry but it was so in the book you
I'm sorry but it was so in the book you have authenticity
have authenticity anger acceptance
anger acceptance an agency yeah and yeah acceptance yeah
an agency yeah and yeah acceptance yeah so awareness you've said before before
so awareness you've said before before this book that awareness is the starting
this book that awareness is the starting point yeah
point yeah I found that to be so true in my life
I found that to be so true in my life but it's not very easy I feel like
but it's not very easy I feel like awareness is a is a luxury or a
awareness is a is a luxury or a privilege that is very hard fought yeah
privilege that is very hard fought yeah because you're guessing yeah you're
because you're guessing yeah you're guessing based on pattern recognition so
guessing based on pattern recognition so I was guessing 25 years old I can't get
I was guessing 25 years old I can't get into relationship any time a girl comes
into relationship any time a girl comes near me yeah even if I've pursued her I
near me yeah even if I've pursued her I run off and to figure out why I was
run off and to figure out why I was doing that to even identify the behavior
doing that to even identify the behavior pattern and go that's not helpful that's
pattern and go that's not helpful that's not going to lead me to feeling whole
not going to lead me to feeling whole yeah
yeah um where does that come from took 25
um where does that come from took 25 years and a lot of like introspection
years and a lot of like introspection but but most people they're living
but but most people they're living unaware of the puppet master of trauma
unaware of the puppet master of trauma that is driving their life that's a
that is driving their life that's a really good analogy the trauma really is
really good analogy the trauma really is like um a puppet master behind the
like um a puppet master behind the scenes in the unconscious pulling your
scenes in the unconscious pulling your strings and you're not aware of it you
strings and you're not aware of it you know do you remember Pinocchio yeah so
know do you remember Pinocchio yeah so remember what Pinocchio says at the end
remember what Pinocchio says at the end the way when he finally becomes a real
the way when he finally becomes a real boy yeah yeah he says how foolish I was
boy yeah yeah he says how foolish I was when I was a puppet
when I was a puppet and to the extent that we're being
and to the extent that we're being activated by these
activated by these unconscious strings that are traumas
unconscious strings that are traumas pulling behind the scenes
pulling behind the scenes and reacting in our lives and we think
and reacting in our lives and we think we're autonomous free beings but we're
we're autonomous free beings but we're actually being controlled by something
actually being controlled by something in the past that we haven't worked out
in the past that we haven't worked out we're puppets
we're puppets reality puppets
reality puppets there's not there's not much freedom in
there's not there's not much freedom in that there's no there's no freedom in it
that there's no there's no freedom in it at all
at all so I mean I suppose the opposite of
so I mean I suppose the opposite of trauma if you want to revisit that
trauma if you want to revisit that question is is liberation
question is is liberation interesting
interesting Liberation and by reconnection by
Liberation and by reconnection by reconnection of Liberation from the from
reconnection of Liberation from the from the inexorable power of the unconscious
the inexorable power of the unconscious which is like cutting the strings in a
which is like cutting the strings in a way kind of brings me to there's kind of
way kind of brings me to there's kind of two ways to I want to go with that but
two ways to I want to go with that but the first question I have about about
the first question I have about about trauma and the puppet master analogy is
trauma and the puppet master analogy is do we ever do we ever really cut the
do we ever do we ever really cut the strings or do we just kind of learn to
strings or do we just kind of learn to pull against them when they try and tell
pull against them when they try and tell us to do something with more Force then
us to do something with more Force then they're exerting in the opposite
they're exerting in the opposite direction
direction um
um that doesn't work very well
that doesn't work very well pushing against it because they're still
pushing against it because they're still reactive you're still not in charge
reactive you're still not in charge you're just in automatic resistance mode
you're just in automatic resistance mode to something there's no freedom in that
to something there's no freedom in that either
either you know so yeah
you know so yeah um
um but awareness that you mentioned is huge
but awareness that you mentioned is huge because weren't you aware that there's
because weren't you aware that there's this see the thing about these strings
this see the thing about these strings may not Fray right away
may not Fray right away but once you wear that ah
but once you wear that ah this reaction of mine
this reaction of mine it's not about what's going on right now
it's not about what's going on right now there's something old being activated
there's something old being activated here that awareness alone weakens the it
here that awareness alone weakens the it slackens the strings a bit no you know
slackens the strings a bit no you know they no longer is taught they're no
they no longer is taught they're no longer is automatically
longer is automatically um
um capable of pulling on you
capable of pulling on you so it does have to be begin with
so it does have to be begin with awareness of them ultimately
if we realize that this Puppet Master is just a desperate little person trying to
just a desperate little person trying to get you to survive the only way he she
get you to survive the only way he she they knew how when you were small when
they knew how when you were small when they were small if you make friends with
they were small if you make friends with it
it but we believe it of its duties
but we believe it of its duties saying thanks very much but I can handle
saying thanks very much but I can handle it now
it now it eventually Becomes Her friend rather
it eventually Becomes Her friend rather than sort of our
than sort of our Master you know
Master you know you know on that first step of just
you know on that first step of just acknowledging just understanding that
acknowledging just understanding that there is a puppet master they're
there is a puppet master they're controlling us and exactly which strings
controlling us and exactly which strings that Puppet Master is is pulling in our
that Puppet Master is is pulling in our lives how does one go about
lives how does one go about awareness the process of awareness is
awareness the process of awareness is that I mean is it introspection keeping
that I mean is it introspection keeping a diary therapy what is it well all that
a diary therapy what is it well all that I mean it all or any but even when you
I mean it all or any but even when you ask how you go about it
ask how you go about it what is the it well for you to say how
what is the it well for you to say how to go about it you already must have
to go about it you already must have some degree of awareness if you didn't
some degree of awareness if you didn't you wouldn't even be asking the question
you wouldn't even be asking the question so that's the very first step
so that's the very first step of realizing that there's something here
of realizing that there's something here to work on there's something here to
to work on there's something here to work through it does not need to be the
work through it does not need to be the way it is that already is the biggest
way it is that already is the biggest step the Buddha said that that to
step the Buddha said that that to recognize the source of your suffering
recognize the source of your suffering is the first step towards relieving the
is the first step towards relieving the suffering and so as soon as you ask how
suffering and so as soon as you ask how you go about it you've already taken a
you go about it you've already taken a huge step because a lot of people don't
huge step because a lot of people don't even know that there's an it
even know that there's an it they just think this is a reality that
they just think this is a reality that this is life so we're realizing that
this is life so we're realizing that this it doesn't have to be the way it is
this it doesn't have to be the way it is that's already a huge step now beyond
that's already a huge step now beyond that
that yoga meditation
yoga meditation um nature
um nature um therapy of all kinds Bodywork
um therapy of all kinds Bodywork of all kinds like like somatic
of all kinds like like somatic experiencing or um or um
experiencing or um or um cranial sacral treatments or even
cranial sacral treatments or even massage therapy it's incredible what can
massage therapy it's incredible what can be revealed just through body work like
be revealed just through body work like that then all kinds of forms of therapy
that then all kinds of forms of therapy the ones I teach the ones other people
the ones I teach the ones other people teach
teach journaling
um certain exercises in this book that we recommend like just ask yourself will
we recommend like just ask yourself will you have trouble saying no in life to
you have trouble saying no in life to things you don't really want to do and
things you don't really want to do and working that through on a regular basis
working that through on a regular basis so there's lots of ways once you open
so there's lots of ways once you open the door
the door you know
you know I have a chapter on psychedelics here
I have a chapter on psychedelics here which is a
which is a again it's not like a Panacea or for
again it's not like a Panacea or for everyone but surely it's a helpful
everyone but surely it's a helpful modality for a lot of people
modality for a lot of people so um some people may actually benefit
so um some people may actually benefit from taking pharmaceutical medications
from taking pharmaceutical medications if their situation is dire enough
if their situation is dire enough but not as the final answer but as a way
but not as the final answer but as a way of getting respite that allowed them to
of getting respite that allowed them to go to work on the real issues that cause
go to work on the real issues that cause them to be depressed or
them to be depressed or anxious or tuning out you know so any
anxious or tuning out you know so any and all of these things other people
and all of these things other people don't even want to open those doors
don't even want to open those doors though because they there's so much pain
though because they there's so much pain associated with maybe going back or
associated with maybe going back or revisiting an early experience that they
revisiting an early experience that they just think it's better keep the doors
just think it's better keep the doors shut yeah
shut yeah um and get get to tomorrow that's true
um and get get to tomorrow that's true um to which I have two answers one is
um to which I have two answers one is it's true it's painful
it's true it's painful um because all the pain you didn't want
um because all the pain you didn't want to feel and you've been running away
to feel and you've been running away from through your compensatory behaviors
from through your compensatory behaviors like like your addictions are nothing
like like your addictions are nothing but an attempt to escape from Pain
but an attempt to escape from Pain that's all they are that's not you know
that's all they are that's not you know they're not a disease they're not a
they're not a disease they're not a genetic whatever it is addictions are
genetic whatever it is addictions are very simply an attempt to escape pain
very simply an attempt to escape pain which could create more pain
which could create more pain but that's what they are
but that's what they are and so we get addicted to work to sex to
and so we get addicted to work to sex to pornography the gambling to the internet
pornography the gambling to the internet to shopping to eating to power on that
to shopping to eating to power on that point I find it so fast that you that
point I find it so fast that you that when you mentioned in your previous book
when you mentioned in your previous book that you know you classify things like
that you know you classify things like food yeah social media yeah shopping
food yeah social media yeah shopping yeah porn and work as types of addiction
yeah porn and work as types of addiction that was uh that in and of itself was a
that was uh that in and of itself was a bit of a revelation for me because I
bit of a revelation for me because I never saw work as an addiction the
never saw work as an addiction the minute you said it was and I kind of
minute you said it was and I kind of link it to
link it to you know heroin addiction which is
you know heroin addiction which is providing a you know a certain
providing a you know a certain psychological physiological
psychological physiological um benefit to me yeah temporarily
um benefit to me yeah temporarily temporarily yeah of course it's a
temporarily yeah of course it's a [ __ ] addiction of course work is an
[ __ ] addiction of course work is an addiction because they have that
addiction because they have that addiction well it can be an addiction
addiction well it can be an addiction yeah or it can also be sacred it can
yeah or it can also be sacred it can also be fulfilling in the manifestation
also be fulfilling in the manifestation of your creative urges but it's so it's
of your creative urges but it's so it's not the
not the but it's strange to say not that I
but it's strange to say not that I recommend it but it's possible even to
recommend it but it's possible even to use heroin in a non-addictive way
use heroin in a non-addictive way I don't personally get it and I would
I don't personally get it and I would never want to but the addiction is never
never want to but the addiction is never in the
in the Behavior itself it's in your
Behavior itself it's in your relationship to the behavior so if the
relationship to the behavior so if the particular activity gives you temporary
particular activity gives you temporary relief or pleasure and therefore you
relief or pleasure and therefore you crave it
crave it but it causes harm in the long term and
but it causes harm in the long term and you can't give it up you've got an
you can't give it up you've got an addiction and I don't care what the
addiction and I don't care what the activity is could be drugs and all the
activity is could be drugs and all the other things that we mentioned and and
other things that we mentioned and and and it employs the same brain Circus by
and it employs the same brain Circus by the way the workaholic is after the same
the way the workaholic is after the same brain chemical that the cocaine addict
brain chemical that the cocaine addict is after dopamine
is after dopamine you know and people can be even addicted
you know and people can be even addicted to their own stress hormones like
to their own stress hormones like adrenaline the so-called Adrenaline
adrenaline the so-called Adrenaline Junkies there's such a thing you know so
Junkies there's such a thing you know so almost anything can be addictive if it
almost anything can be addictive if it serves the purpose of temporarily easing
serves the purpose of temporarily easing some distress but causing harm in the
some distress but causing harm in the long term is is escapism the right word
long term is is escapism the right word to use then for it if we're
to use then for it if we're because it it doesn't sound as much like
because it it doesn't sound as much like we're escaping rather than we are
we're escaping rather than we are seeking something I'm seeking relief
seeking something I'm seeking relief from a certain mental state like like
from a certain mental state like like I just gave you a definition of
I just gave you a definition of addiction so I think I don't know what
addiction so I think I don't know what addictions you've had what happened or
addictions you've had what happened or haven't besides you know but what did
haven't besides you know but what did that do for you
that do for you temporarily
temporarily um and give you something made me feel
um and give you something made me feel like I was valid and I was pursuing a
like I was valid and I was pursuing a sense of accomplishment and validation
sense of accomplishment and validation and a good sense of worth worth yeah it
and a good sense of worth worth yeah it was worthy yeah no is that something
was worthy yeah no is that something that people need or not
that people need or not yes yeah that's a good thing but the
yes yeah that's a good thing but the real question is
real question is why did you ever get the idea that you
why did you ever get the idea that you didn't have the words why did I get the
didn't have the words why did I get the I didn't have the word that's what
I didn't have the word that's what trauma comes because I was called the
trauma comes because I was called the n-word when I was yeah eight by a kid in
n-word when I was yeah eight by a kid in school exactly and then I know myself
school exactly and then I know myself because your mother screamed at your
because your mother screamed at your father yeah yeah you know and and so all
father yeah yeah you know and and so all that together and so
that together and so and that's emotionally painful like
and that's emotionally painful like what's it feel like to be not to have a
what's it feel like to be not to have a sense of word that's painful and so
sense of word that's painful and so that's why my Mantra is don't ask why
that's why my Mantra is don't ask why the addiction that's why the pain
the addiction that's why the pain and if you understand why the pain you
and if you understand why the pain you have to look at that person's life
have to look at that person's life and what the benefit of the addiction is
and what the benefit of the addiction is that's something that you say in the
that's something that you say in the previous book that I found is it's a
previous book that I found is it's a flipping of narrative where you say we
flipping of narrative where you say we should be asking what the benefit of the
should be asking what the benefit of the addiction is well and like in your case
addiction is well and like in your case yeah it gives me a sense of worth well
yeah it gives me a sense of worth well okay
okay I'll say to you if you come to me
I'll say to you if you come to me because you say like I'm broke or like
because you say like I'm broke or like it's causing some harm in my life it's
it's causing some harm in my life it's keeping keeping me from Intimate
keeping keeping me from Intimate Relationships that makes me stressed and
Relationships that makes me stressed and tired whatever it is
tired whatever it is that's the first thing I would ask you
that's the first thing I would ask you for you of you is what is it doing for
for you of you is what is it doing for you and you say a sense of word and I'd
you and you say a sense of word and I'd say you know what
you deserve to have a sense of birth I totally understand why you'd want to
totally understand why you'd want to engage in an activity that gives it to
engage in an activity that gives it to you
you but given that it's causing you harm
but given that it's causing you harm let's look at why you don't have a sense
let's look at why you don't have a sense of worth and how else you might develop
of worth and how else you might develop it that isn't harmful to you you know so
it that isn't harmful to you you know so but you you start with what's right
but you you start with what's right about it what are you looking for and
about it what are you looking for and what you're looking for is always valid
and how one would go about how would one go about getting that sense of worth and
go about getting that sense of worth and asking for a friend
well um that would be a matter of um some form of work people who meditate
um some form of work people who meditate often deal with that issue through the
often deal with that issue through the meditation not always
meditation not always certainly therapy
certainly therapy you know
you know um
by recognizing also that what you're doing to get a sense of where it doesn't
doing to get a sense of where it doesn't really do it for you just by getting
really do it for you just by getting honest about it you know
honest about it you know so there's all kinds of ways but the
so there's all kinds of ways but the first step is the recognition
first step is the recognition that's the first step that you say is uh
that's the first step that you say is uh missing missing from the book which is
missing missing from the book which is that sort of awareness the next thing
that sort of awareness the next thing which I've been it's been really front
which I've been it's been really front of mind in my life recently because I've
of mind in my life recently because I've been asked this a few times on stage and
been asked this a few times on stage and I've been trying to find the words to
I've been trying to find the words to really
really um articulate the importance of it is
um articulate the importance of it is and this is one of your forays in this
and this is one of your forays in this book about how to heal is authenticity
book about how to heal is authenticity yeah really interesting concept because
yeah really interesting concept because I've been trying to articulate why the
I've been trying to articulate why the fact that I've just shared all this
fact that I've just shared all this stuff with you yeah and the fact that I
stuff with you yeah and the fact that I do this every week yeah I'm getting
do this every week yeah I'm getting closer and closer to that sort of
closer and closer to that sort of authentic self where there's really the
authentic self where there's really the mask is kind of dropping on me why
mask is kind of dropping on me why that's been so healing for me why is
that's been so healing for me why is authenticity such a good way an
authenticity such a good way an important way for us to heal
important way for us to heal it's much more than the way for us to
it's much more than the way for us to heal it's actually who we are like what
heal it's actually who we are like what you're actually asking is why is it
you're actually asking is why is it important for a creature to be true to
important for a creature to be true to its own nature
its own nature because
because that's what we're meant to do we're
that's what we're meant to do we're meant to be here as ourselves
meant to be here as ourselves you know and and and when we nod
you know and and and when we nod ourselves because we had to abandon
ourselves because we had to abandon ourselves or
ourselves or betray ourselves disconnect from
betray ourselves disconnect from ourselves in order to survive
ourselves in order to survive um
um we lost connections with our essence and
we lost connections with our essence and uh
uh I mean how does it feel
I mean how does it feel to
to be a successful CEO and you know more
be a successful CEO and you know more than realizing your Financial dreams
than realizing your Financial dreams but to be a workaholic and and and and
but to be a workaholic and and and and not to be available to yourself in areas
not to be available to yourself in areas of your life that really matter to you
of your life that really matter to you as opposed to
as opposed to being honest about your stuff
being honest about your stuff sharing with other people uh dropping
sharing with other people uh dropping the veil dropping the I mean
the veil dropping the I mean to answer your question what does it
to answer your question what does it feel like I mean can you sense the
feel like I mean can you sense the difference in your body feels lighter
difference in your body feels lighter well yeah expansive exactly well that's
well yeah expansive exactly well that's the answer yeah that's why it's so
the answer yeah that's why it's so important
important so many of us so many of us um
so many of us so many of us um live in authentic lives because as you
live in authentic lives because as you said it's it's because either
said it's it's because either because from an early age we were
because from an early age we were escaping
escaping um some kind of you know reality in
um some kind of you know reality in order to help us to survive or then the
order to help us to survive or then the other thing that happens a bit later on
other thing that happens a bit later on in life is we develop an identity which
in life is we develop an identity which becomes a career which becomes a Social
becomes a career which becomes a Social Circle which becomes a prison
Circle which becomes a prison of um our inauthentic selves we get
of um our inauthentic selves we get trapped in there you know because I was
trapped in there you know because I was good at something or because I you know
good at something or because I you know I felt accepted in this job as a lawyer
I felt accepted in this job as a lawyer so I am now living inauthentically as
so I am now living inauthentically as this robot in this prison
this robot in this prison um
and it's a it's a there's often a real perception of risk
there's often a real perception of risk and loss in danger
and loss in danger of trying to get out of that prison and
of trying to get out of that prison and trying to get close to our authentic
trying to get close to our authentic selves we feel like we'll lose our
selves we feel like we'll lose our friendship Circle we'll feel like we'll
friendship Circle we'll feel like we'll we'll let our parents down he wanted us
we'll let our parents down he wanted us to become a lawyer you know all of these
to become a lawyer you know all of these things
things I guess you see that a lot in your in
I guess you see that a lot in your in your work well there is that risk and
your work well there is that risk and but here's the issue as a child you had
but here's the issue as a child you had no choice
no choice but to go for
but to go for acceptance and being approved of and
acceptance and being approved of and being received
being received um under any under any conditions no
um under any under any conditions no matter what you had to give up of your
matter what you had to give up of your authenticity you had to give up your
authenticity you had to give up your authenticity you had no choice in the
authenticity you had no choice in the matter
matter at a certain point as adults we get we
at a certain point as adults we get we learn that this lack of authenticity
learn that this lack of authenticity this this connection from ourselves this
this this connection from ourselves this separation from our gut feelings
separation from our gut feelings um is costing us it's costing us in
um is costing us it's costing us in terms of our physical health our our
terms of our physical health our our Peace of Mind our relationship our
Peace of Mind our relationship our mental health and so on
you'll never be as vulnerable again as you were as when you were a child you
you were as when you were a child you never be as helpless as dependent as
never be as helpless as dependent as um resourceless
um resourceless no it's true that if you develop the
no it's true that if you develop the whole set of relationships based on your
whole set of relationships based on your authentic inauthentic Persona some
authentic inauthentic Persona some people
people in your life may not like it if you
in your life may not like it if you gradually move towards authenticity they
gradually move towards authenticity they may not like it it's not what they
may not like it it's not what they wanted from you you're going to find out
wanted from you you're going to find out who your friends are
who your friends are you're really gonna fight because your
you're really gonna fight because your real friends will say oh I'm so happy
real friends will say oh I'm so happy for you
for you we were waiting for this other fans will
we were waiting for this other fans will say uh that's not what I signed up for
say uh that's not what I signed up for you know
you know the question is you still have to decide
the question is you still have to decide as an infant as a young child I had no
as an infant as a young child I had no agency
agency in the choice of you know authenticity
in the choice of you know authenticity and attachment no I do
and attachment no I do which one do you want to go with what is
which one do you want to go with what is the cost of being an authentic I can't
the cost of being an authentic I can't make that decision for anybody else
make that decision for anybody else nobody can make that decision for
nobody can make that decision for anybody else but most people will find
anybody else but most people will find that choosing authenticity as benefits
that choosing authenticity as benefits Way Beyond whatever they might lose
Way Beyond whatever they might lose that's what I find
that's what I find and you said the word their agency which
and you said the word their agency which is the second of the Four A's yeah on
is the second of the Four A's yeah on how to heal now agency when when I read
how to heal now agency when when I read that word I I hear like personal
that word I I hear like personal responsibility taking personal
responsibility taking personal responsibility yeah over my life exactly
responsibility yeah over my life exactly which also means not letting you know
which also means not letting you know you don't use try you don't wear trauma
you don't use try you don't wear trauma as a badge you know or you don't use it
as a badge you know or you don't use it as a get out of jail pass in a game of
as a get out of jail pass in a game of Monopoly oh I was traumatized so I can't
Monopoly oh I was traumatized so I can't I can't be any other way you know I mean
I can't be any other way you know I mean giving all the power to the Puppet
giving all the power to the Puppet Master yeah yeah exactly
Master yeah yeah exactly so agency means actually I take the
so agency means actually I take the responsibility not for what happened to
responsibility not for what happened to me
not even how I interpreted the world as a result going backwards but how I
a result going backwards but how I interpret the world from now on do I
interpret the world from now on do I still want to interpret the world and my
still want to interpret the world and my role in it based on some decision I made
role in it based on some decision I made when I was a one-year-old that's where
when I was a one-year-old that's where agency comes in agency also means that
agency comes in agency also means that if I have
if I have any kind of dysfunction or illness it's
any kind of dysfunction or illness it's not just that I put my hands in the
not just that I put my hands in the hands of a put my my faith in the hands
hands of a put my my faith in the hands of a physician or a Healer but I I have
of a physician or a Healer but I I have I make the decisions I listen to your
I make the decisions I listen to your advice I accept some I don't accept some
advice I accept some I don't accept some but I'm the one who's making the
but I'm the one who's making the decisions along with what seems right to
decisions along with what seems right to me
me to agency
first thing in your in your work throughout your work you use
throughout your work you use alliteration as a lot as a way to kind
alliteration as a lot as a way to kind of summarize and make ideas really
of summarize and make ideas really memorable
memorable it really helps it's an old trick it's a
it really helps it's an old trick it's a trick it's a writing trick right well it
trick it's a writing trick right well it also works you know before ways or uh
also works you know before ways or uh before almost but I don't I don't know
before almost but I don't I don't know what to say you know what I'm I'm
what to say you know what I'm I'm denigrating my work if I say it's a
denigrating my work if I say it's a trick no it's just something just the
trick no it's just something just the way things occur to me that's all it is
way things occur to me that's all it is one of the one of the um alliteration
one of the one of the um alliteration devices you use is also relates to
devices you use is also relates to limiting beliefs and how we can undo
limiting beliefs and how we can undo self-limiting beliefs with the five R's
self-limiting beliefs with the five R's yeah relabel reattribute refocus re re
yeah relabel reattribute refocus re re value and recreate yeah now from what I
value and recreate yeah now from what I understood of those relabeling is
the story and the belief that is limiting to us
limiting to us um well it taste something like um
um well it taste something like um eurocologist yeah I need to go to work I
eurocologist yeah I need to go to work I need to do this work really building as
need to do this work really building as I don't need to do this work I just have
I don't need to do this work I just have a belief that I need to do this work
a belief that I need to do this work okay so that real building just takes a
okay so that real building just takes a degree of separation from the
degree of separation from the behavior and and actually it's true it's
behavior and and actually it's true it's not that you need to do all the circuits
not that you need to do all the circuits you have this belief so the relay
you have this belief so the relay building just says it for what it is by
building just says it for what it is by the way I have to acknowledge that I
the way I have to acknowledge that I these these five R's only one in his
these these five R's only one in his mind I stole the other four from a
mind I stole the other four from a psychiatrist just I I mentioned that in
psychiatrist just I I mentioned that in the book but I find it very helpful
the book but I find it very helpful technique but the it was developed for
technique but the it was developed for people with obsessively compulsive
people with obsessively compulsive Tendencies so the relabel is not that I
Tendencies so the relabel is not that I have to wash my hands 100 times I just
have to wash my hands 100 times I just have a belief that I have to wash my
have a belief that I have to wash my hand a lot of times that's the context
hand a lot of times that's the context in which it was developed I think it
in which it was developed I think it works for all kinds of all kinds of
works for all kinds of all kinds of Dynamics and then if I and then so I've
Dynamics and then if I and then so I've re-labeled it
re-labeled it I don't have to work to feel a sense of
I don't have to work to feel a sense of validation but I have a belief that I do
validation but I have a belief that I do that's right and then I reattribute it
that's right and then I reattribute it which is the second R which means I get
which is the second R which means I get clear on where it's come from yeah so
clear on where it's come from yeah so let's say you have to believe that
let's say you have to believe that you're not worth it it's not too then
you're not worth it it's not too then I'm not worth it I just never believed
I'm not worth it I just never believed that I'm not worth it
that I'm not worth it okay or it may not be too then I'm not
okay or it may not be too then I'm not worth it but I do have a belief that I'm
worth it but I do have a belief that I'm not worth it re-um attribute means this
not worth it re-um attribute means this is an old brain circuit sending me an
is an old brain circuit sending me an old message it's got nothing to do with
old message it's got nothing to do with reality it has to do with some
reality it has to do with some experience that I had a long time ago
experience that I had a long time ago that's to be attribute you just say
that's to be attribute you just say where is it actually coming from there's
where is it actually coming from there's a circuit in your brain that's wired
a circuit in your brain that's wired with the message
with the message you're not worth it and it's going to
you're not worth it and it's going to keep repeating that message well you say
keep repeating that message well you say okay that's where it's coming from until
okay that's where it's coming from until I refocus which is the photo yeah so
I refocus which is the photo yeah so refocus is just to give yourself some
refocus is just to give yourself some space so if you ever say uh I need to go
space so if you ever say uh I need to go to work uh okay refocus means well for
to work uh okay refocus means well for five minutes
five minutes maybe in five minutes I'll go to work
maybe in five minutes I'll go to work but five minutes I won't I'm gonna put
but five minutes I won't I'm gonna put on some piece of music or go for a walk
on some piece of music or go for a walk or meditate or whatever so you refocus
or meditate or whatever so you refocus you put the attention somewhere else
you put the attention somewhere else right just just so that to prove to
right just just so that to prove to yourself but you actually have some
yourself but you actually have some agency over your brain
agency over your brain if only for five minutes if you have
if only for five minutes if you have this belief that I'm not worth it
this belief that I'm not worth it well you can go back to it in five
well you can go back to it in five minutes if you want just for five
minutes if you want just for five minutes though consider all the ways
minutes though consider all the ways they've made a contribution
they've made a contribution consider all the ways that people have
consider all the ways that people have acknowledged your
acknowledged your benign the presence in their lives
benign the presence in their lives the times that people uh have told you
the times that people uh have told you that they've loved you or that you told
that they've loved you or that you told somebody else just for five minutes hang
somebody else just for five minutes hang up with that five minutes later you want
up with that five minutes later you want to go back to this belief that or if you
to go back to this belief that or if you can't help going back to this belief
can't help going back to this belief that you know I said well that's okay
that you know I said well that's okay but at least create some space it's all
but at least create some space it's all about creating space between yourself
about creating space between yourself and these beliefs or these behaviors
and these beliefs or these behaviors and in that five minutes you're
and in that five minutes you're basically accepting new evidence to be
basically accepting new evidence to be true or you're proving that other
true or you're proving that other evidence is true I didn't need to go and
evidence is true I didn't need to go and work well you're also proving that you
work well you're also proving that you don't have to spend all your time
don't have to spend all your time subjected to those beliefs you can take
subjected to those beliefs you can take a Hiatus from it
a Hiatus from it at least for a while and they are not
at least for a while and they are not you they're not you yeah and then
you they're not you yeah and then revalue
revalue um
um reevalue it really what it should mean
reevalue it really what it should mean or maybe more accurately devalue because
or maybe more accurately devalue because you say what has been the actual value
you say what has been the actual value this belief that I'm not worth it what
this belief that I'm not worth it what has been the actual value of it in my
has been the actual value of it in my life or this tendency of mine to be a
life or this tendency of mine to be a workaholic what has been actual value
workaholic what has been actual value it made me tired it made me alienated or
it made me tired it made me alienated or it keeps me depressed so it keeps me
it keeps me depressed so it keeps me hopelessly trying to prove something
hopelessly trying to prove something which I can never prove to myself anyway
which I can never prove to myself anyway to external activity so that you
to external activity so that you actually look at what does it mean it's
actually look at what does it mean it's actually impact on your life
actually impact on your life what has been his real value
what has been his real value um sometimes the value is positive
um sometimes the value is positive though right like I think about my own
though right like I think about my own workaholic workaholism if that's the
workaholic workaholism if that's the term I think uh there's some there's
term I think uh there's some there's some positives here yeah a lot of
some positives here yeah a lot of negatives yeah well it is the positive
negatives yeah well it is the positive do the workaholism or is it due to your
do the workaholism or is it due to your capacity to work hard and and on behalf
capacity to work hard and and on behalf of a goal they're not the same
of a goal they're not the same new capacity to work hard to achieve a
new capacity to work hard to achieve a certain goal is simply a gift that you
certain goal is simply a gift that you have
have and something that maybe takes some
and something that maybe takes some discipline an application on your part
discipline an application on your part that's not working that's just
that's not working that's just a strong positive work ethic
a strong positive work ethic the recallism and you're driven to work
the recallism and you're driven to work you actually don't need to
you actually don't need to it's funny because it reminds me of an
it's funny because it reminds me of an analogy I've been talking about in the
analogy I've been talking about in the last couple of episodes of this podcast
last couple of episodes of this podcast of the the distinction between being
of the the distinction between being driven and being dragged yeah it's like
driven and being dragged yeah it's like am I which side of the Lorry am I flying
am I which side of the Lorry am I flying down the motorway am I tied to the front
down the motorway am I tied to the front and am I running and pulling the Lorry
and am I running and pulling the Lorry or am I just like my ankles attached to
or am I just like my ankles attached to the back of the Lorry as it flies down
the back of the Lorry as it flies down the motorway because I'm being dragged
the motorway because I'm being dragged but if I may I would say that neither of
but if I may I would say that neither of those are particularly desirable
but but but but it's the distinction that I made before between being driven
that I made before between being driven and being called yeah because if you
and being called yeah because if you called it's if I call you
called it's if I call you say Stephen would you come and have
say Stephen would you come and have dinner with me you can say yes you can
dinner with me you can say yes you can say no I just gave you a call and you
say no I just gave you a call and you could say literally I'm talking about
could say literally I'm talking about calling you know telephone call you know
calling you know telephone call you know you can say yes you can say no it's a
you can say yes you can say no it's a decision now but you're the one who's
decision now but you're the one who's making the decision yeah when you're
making the decision yeah when you're dragged or pushed or pulled you're not
dragged or pushed or pulled you're not making the decision I'm a slave to the
making the decision I'm a slave to the decision to that that's right to the
decision to that that's right to the activity
activity one of the um one of the really
one of the um one of the really interesting things I wanted to talk to
interesting things I wanted to talk to you about is is ADHD yeah
you about is is ADHD yeah um I've had a few of my friends and my
um I've had a few of my friends and my close Friendship Circle diagnosed with
close Friendship Circle diagnosed with ADHD recently
ADHD recently um and then I looked into some of the
um and then I looked into some of the statistics around ADHD and I found this
statistics around ADHD and I found this statistic that said in the 1980s one in
statistic that said in the 1980s one in 20 U.S children were diagnosed with ADHD
20 U.S children were diagnosed with ADHD today the number is roughly one in nine
today the number is roughly one in nine yeah
yeah um
um and just generally you know around me
and just generally you know around me there's it feels like and this could
there's it feels like and this could just be because of my own little narrow
just be because of my own little narrow Circle or it could be because of a wider
Circle or it could be because of a wider thing happening in society it feels like
thing happening in society it feels like there's been an increase in diagnosis of
there's been an increase in diagnosis of mental illness and things like ADHD and
mental illness and things like ADHD and the causes when I spoke to my friend
the causes when I spoke to my friend about what he believed the cause of um
about what he believed the cause of um his ADHD was and he's posted this on
his ADHD was and he's posted this on LinkedIn and talks about it very
LinkedIn and talks about it very publicly now
publicly now um it seemed to point to he seemed to
um it seemed to point to he seemed to believe it was relating to
believe it was relating to some kind of genetic or heritable
some kind of genetic or heritable um Factor now the issue the issue that
um Factor now the issue the issue that I've sort of been contending with myself
I've sort of been contending with myself and why I spoke to Johann Hari about
and why I spoke to Johann Hari about this and others about this is
this and others about this is if I if I am to accept that then I am I
if I if I am to accept that then I am I feel like I'm accepting that we're being
feel like I'm accepting that we're being born somewhat broken and this is almost
born somewhat broken and this is almost what Johann Hari talked about in in the
what Johann Hari talked about in in the early stages of his teenage years where
early stages of his teenage years where he he was made to believe that there was
he he was made to believe that there was this chemical imbalance in his brain and
this chemical imbalance in his brain and therefore he was born broken and here's
therefore he was born broken and here's the medication to solve it yeah
the medication to solve it yeah so but I don't want I don't believe that
so but I don't want I don't believe that I don't I don't personally believe that
I don't I don't personally believe that we're we're born broken well um and
we're we're born broken well um and anybody interested in the subject
anybody interested in the subject my daughter I think Joanne and actually
my daughter I think Joanne and actually this is to read my book and it is called
this is to read my book and it is called scattered minds and um I was diagnosed
scattered minds and um I was diagnosed within my 50s and so were a couple of my
within my 50s and so were a couple of my kids but but I never bought into the
kids but but I never bought into the idea this is a genetic disease or that
idea this is a genetic disease or that it's a disease at all genetic or
it's a disease at all genetic or otherwise
otherwise um now as for the rising number of
um now as for the rising number of um people being diagnosed with it there
um people being diagnosed with it there could be two reasons at least one is
could be two reasons at least one is we're better diagnosis so before we
we're better diagnosis so before we wouldn't have noticed it but now we are
wouldn't have noticed it but now we are or genuinely there's more people who are
or genuinely there's more people who are having trouble in certain ways such as
having trouble in certain ways such as with attention and impulse control and
with attention and impulse control and so on
so on but either way the fact is that many
but either way the fact is that many more children are being diagnosed and
more children are being diagnosed and medicated
medicated for this condition particularly in the
for this condition particularly in the U.S but also increasingly uh here in the
U.S but also increasingly uh here in the UK as well and in China and elsewhere
UK as well and in China and elsewhere now
now um as I said earlier if we the fact is
um as I said earlier if we the fact is here's the actual reality nobody's ever
here's the actual reality nobody's ever found the gene for ADHD nobody's ever
found the gene for ADHD nobody's ever found the gene that says if you have
found the gene that says if you have this Gene you're gonna have ADHD no such
this Gene you're gonna have ADHD no such thing has ever been found no group of
thing has ever been found no group of genes ever been found that says if you
genes ever been found that says if you can have this Gene you're gonna have
can have this Gene you're gonna have this condition nor ever will be and no
this condition nor ever will be and no such gene or group of genes have ever
such gene or group of genes have ever been found that if you don't have these
been found that if you don't have these genes you will not have the condition
genes you will not have the condition now there are some diseases there are
now there are some diseases there are genetic one runs in my family muscular
genetic one runs in my family muscular dystrophy if you have the gene you're
dystrophy if you have the gene you're going to have the disease my mother had
going to have the disease my mother had it my aunt had it
it my aunt had it that's a genetic condition and if you
that's a genetic condition and if you have the gene you'll have the disease
have the gene you'll have the disease very rare those kind of diseases
very rare those kind of diseases no there are some genes that the more
no there are some genes that the more them you have
them you have the more likely you are to have any
the more likely you are to have any number of mental health diagnoses ADHD
number of mental health diagnoses ADHD depression anxiety even psychosis
depression anxiety even psychosis bipolar Illness but there's no group of
bipolar Illness but there's no group of genes or set of genes or Gene that
genes or set of genes or Gene that themselves determine any one condition
themselves determine any one condition as a matter of fact you can have those
as a matter of fact you can have those same genes and not have any condition
same genes and not have any condition whatsoever
whatsoever so something is being passed on but it's
so something is being passed on but it's not any kind of condition that's being
not any kind of condition that's being passed on what's being passed on is
passed on what's being passed on is sensitivity and the more sensitive you
sensitivity and the more sensitive you are the more you're gonna feel whatever
are the more you're gonna feel whatever is going on in the environment so you
is going on in the environment so you take the same sensitive kid with these
take the same sensitive kid with these genes that confer greater sensitivity of
genes that confer greater sensitivity of them and sensitive means to feel from
them and sensitive means to feel from the Latin word to feel sincere the more
the Latin word to feel sincere the more sensitive you are the more you're going
sensitive you are the more you're going to feel the more you feel the more bad
to feel the more you feel the more bad stuff happens the more pain you're going
stuff happens the more pain you're going to be in and the more compensating
to be in and the more compensating you're gonna have to do
you're gonna have to do the same time with those same genes if
the same time with those same genes if you tweeted well and you grow up in a
you tweeted well and you grow up in a healthy environment you just be creative
healthy environment you just be creative and happy and joyful and a leader and an
and happy and joyful and a leader and an artist or a shaman or or a very creative
artist or a shaman or or a very creative CEO or whatever you're going to be so
CEO or whatever you're going to be so the genes don't determine they make you
the genes don't determine they make you more sensitive to their environment no
more sensitive to their environment no if you go back to what I said about the
if you go back to what I said about the tuning out it's simply a defense
tuning out it's simply a defense so the more sensitive you are
so the more sensitive you are and the stress in the environment the
and the stress in the environment the more you're going to feel the stress the
more you're going to feel the stress the more you're gonna need to escape from it
more you're gonna need to escape from it by tuning out
by tuning out so he didn't inherit ADHD you inherited
so he didn't inherit ADHD you inherited a sensitivity that makes it more likely
a sensitivity that makes it more likely under stressful circumstances that you
under stressful circumstances that you revert to tuning out when your brain is
revert to tuning out when your brain is developing which by the way is an organ
developing which by the way is an organ that develops physiologically under the
that develops physiologically under the impact of the emotional environment
impact of the emotional environment so if there's a lot of stress in a
so if there's a lot of stress in a child's life and what I'm saying is in
child's life and what I'm saying is in this Society is that more and more
this Society is that more and more parents are stressed not because they
parents are stressed not because they don't love their kids not because
don't love their kids not because they're not doing their way utmost to
they're not doing their way utmost to provide for them but because they're
provide for them but because they're more stressed to all kinds of social
more stressed to all kinds of social political economic reasons I mean if you
political economic reasons I mean if you look at inflation in Britain is a high
look at inflation in Britain is a high risk right now more people are going to
risk right now more people are going to be stressed financially
be stressed financially Financial stress on the parents
Financial stress on the parents translates into physiological stress in
translates into physiological stress in the children
the children those children may want to tune out
those children may want to tune out because it's too much to be in their
because it's too much to be in their present some of them will be diagnosed
present some of them will be diagnosed with ADHD
with ADHD they didn't inherit anything in terms of
they didn't inherit anything in terms of a disease they're just reacting to the
a disease they're just reacting to the environment
environment so if we're diagnosing more and more
so if we're diagnosing more and more kids these days I think it's because the
kids these days I think it's because the parenting environment has been much more
parenting environment has been much more stressed and that's backed up in this
stressed and that's backed up in this book where you mentioned that study of
book where you mentioned that study of 65 000 parents yeah um and their
65 000 parents yeah um and their children with ADHD right
children with ADHD right you say well there's more trauma in
you say well there's more trauma in their lives yeah so the children they do
their lives yeah so the children they do a study with 65 000. I forget
a study with 65 000. I forget I read it yeah yeah
I read it yeah yeah but many thousands of kids yeah so
but many thousands of kids yeah so because I found that to be really really
because I found that to be really really sort of um supportive of what you just
sort of um supportive of what you just said where I I'm again I'm I'm saying
said where I I'm again I'm I'm saying this from memory but a study of 65 000
this from memory but a study of 65 000 um children and their parents and they
um children and their parents and they found that those parents who had more
found that those parents who had more adverse
adverse um traumatic events in their lives ended
um traumatic events in their lives ended up having having a higher chance of
up having having a higher chance of having a child that had ADHD well look
having a child that had ADHD well look if you look at um the United States at
if you look at um the United States at least
least poor kids and kids of so-called color
poor kids and kids of so-called color are much more like to be diagnosed with
are much more like to be diagnosed with ADHD interesting no why would that be
ADHD interesting no why would that be the case because they're living with so
the case because they're living with so much more stress
much more stress men as well right men as well adults you
men as well right men as well adults you mean men yeah so I read that more men
mean men yeah so I read that more men more boys more men are diagnosed partly
more boys more men are diagnosed partly because in men the the symptom of
because in men the the symptom of hyperactivity seems to be there more
hyperactivity seems to be there more often so when a kid is sitting in school
often so when a kid is sitting in school and the cancer still that's obvious the
and the cancer still that's obvious the teacher will notice it the girl who's
teacher will notice it the girl who's kind of dreamy and tunes out
kind of dreamy and tunes out kind of Fades away at the back of the
kind of Fades away at the back of the class she doesn't create any problems
class she doesn't create any problems so they don't then that's one of the
so they don't then that's one of the reasons but also
reasons but also um
um funny to say but young boys infant boys
funny to say but young boys infant boys are more sensitive to a mental
are more sensitive to a mental environmental pressure than girls are
environmental pressure than girls are for some strange reason so they're more
for some strange reason so they're more likely to be affected by these factors
likely to be affected by these factors Singapore like that in the class that's
Singapore like that in the class that's a fidgety that has a poor attention span
a fidgety that has a poor attention span bad response to stress we medicate what
bad response to stress we medicate what is the impact of that approach to
is the impact of that approach to treatment medicating super early
treatment medicating super early I used to
I used to when I worked as a physician I would
when I worked as a physician I would certainly prescribe medication sometimes
certainly prescribe medication sometimes it's a question of who's prescribing it
it's a question of who's prescribing it and what intention
and what intention if I understand that the real problem in
if I understand that the real problem in this child is not that there's anything
this child is not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with the child
intrinsically wrong with the child but that they were developed in a
but that they were developed in a stressed environment and those stresses
stressed environment and those stresses are still acting on them
are still acting on them and one of the stresses is that parents
and one of the stresses is that parents don't understand the kids behaviors and
don't understand the kids behaviors and they tend to react rather harshly
they tend to react rather harshly then if I change if I can help the
then if I change if I can help the parent understand the sensitive nature
parent understand the sensitive nature of their child
of their child which also means that when positive
which also means that when positive changes occur in the environment the kid
changes occur in the environment the kid will be very responsive to that as well
will be very responsive to that as well if the parents can create a positive
if the parents can create a positive accepting understanding atmosphere in
accepting understanding atmosphere in the home and work on their own stresses
the home and work on their own stresses so they don't unconsciously pass them on
so they don't unconsciously pass them on to the kids that kid will change very
to the kids that kid will change very quickly
quickly and I say well if in the short term the
and I say well if in the short term the child wants the medication to function
child wants the medication to function better and no child should be forced to
better and no child should be forced to take medication and medication are never
take medication and medication are never the final answer at the very most their
the final answer at the very most their stop cap there's no proof whatsoever
stop cap there's no proof whatsoever that medications help anybody heal from
that medications help anybody heal from ADHD they simply suppress symptoms which
ADHD they simply suppress symptoms which may be helpful in the short term but for
may be helpful in the short term but for God's sakes go to work on the long-term
God's sakes go to work on the long-term development of that child and what does
development of that child and what does that mean create the conditions image
that mean create the conditions image healthy development takes place that
healthy development takes place that child will do very very well if you
child will do very very well if you think the problem is a disease they're
think the problem is a disease they're just going to medicate away the symptoms
just going to medicate away the symptoms of
of what about fat adults they might I'm
what about fat adults they might I'm thinking of my friend that he's he's in
thinking of my friend that he's he's in his 30s and he got the diagnosis of ADHD
his 30s and he got the diagnosis of ADHD in his 30s yeah he's been given this
in his 30s yeah he's been given this medication which he presumably has to
medication which he presumably has to take for Life he's told me the
take for Life he's told me the medication has helped helped him Focus
medication has helped helped him Focus this helps him Focus has helped him
this helps him Focus has helped him Focus yeah it's been a game changer
Focus yeah it's been a game changer Steve you know yeah yeah I I've taken
Steve you know yeah yeah I I've taken medication myself for ADHD and it helped
medication myself for ADHD and it helped me focus it helped me write my first
me focus it helped me write my first book
book um I didn't dig it for this one as a
um I didn't dig it for this one as a matter of fact more recently when I was
matter of fact more recently when I was beginning to write the medication I
beginning to write the medication I thought maybe I would take a bit of
thought maybe I would take a bit of stimulant like I used to and just to see
stimulant like I used to and just to see if it helps me write the book better all
if it helps me write the book better all it did all it did is give me side
it did all it did is give me side effects my brain has changed I don't
effects my brain has changed I don't need it anymore you know so I I would
need it anymore you know so I I would say to your friend if the medication is
say to your friend if the medication is helping right now and it's not causing
helping right now and it's not causing you side effects
you side effects I got nothing against it and
I got nothing against it and you might want to give it a break every
you might want to give it a break every you know every weekend if you don't you
you know every weekend if you don't you know you might want to use it for when
know you might want to use it for when you're having to work or having to you
you're having to work or having to you know they concentrate but it's up to you
know they concentrate but it's up to you if it helps you function take it but go
if it helps you function take it but go to work on the traumas and stresses that
to work on the traumas and stresses that are driving the ADHD going back to your
are driving the ADHD going back to your childhood
childhood and you know I may say my book in ADHD
and you know I may say my book in ADHD scattered Minds does outline some ways
scattered Minds does outline some ways to do that
to do that um you might find that you don't need
um you might find that you don't need the medication uh so much anymore or not
the medication uh so much anymore or not at all perhaps number one number two
at all perhaps number one number two even if you do your life will be so much
even if you do your life will be so much Fuller and so much more um less stressed
Fuller and so much more um less stressed if you deal with the underlying factors
if you deal with the underlying factors then if you simply medicate the symptom
then if you simply medicate the symptom is there I always think in life there's
is there I always think in life there's a cost for all these things we use to
a cost for all these things we use to medicate and stimulate ourselves and
medicate and stimulate ourselves and yeah so I always always ask myself like
yeah so I always always ask myself like there's got to be it's gonna say there's
there's got to be it's gonna say there's got to be a catch here and even for
got to be a catch here and even for coffee I'm like what's the catch it
coffee I'm like what's the catch it can't just be all up and positive and
can't just be all up and positive and with with my friend when he said when he
with with my friend when he said when he had the conversation with me about being
had the conversation with me about being on this this medication for life my
on this this medication for life my first thought is like okay what's the
first thought is like okay what's the cost it's going to make you really
cost it's going to make you really focused and better at work but what is
focused and better at work but what is the what is the long-term cost of
the what is the long-term cost of I had to talk to your friend friend
I had to talk to your friend friend those are good questions to ask
those are good questions to ask when I took medication it made me a much
when I took medication it made me a much more efficient workaholic you know it
more efficient workaholic you know it did nothing for my recallism just made
did nothing for my recallism just made me much better at it because I could
me much better at it because I could stay up later now and I was more focused
stay up later now and I was more focused I get even more things done you know so
I get even more things done you know so um you got to deal with these other
um you got to deal with these other issues did you I did did I deal with
issues did you I did did I deal with them yes I have and there's so much more
them yes I have and there's so much more like like dealing with the trauma like
like like dealing with the trauma like I'm telling you if your friends got ADHD
I'm telling you if your friends got ADHD I can tell you heated stressed early for
I can tell you heated stressed early for years and his parent was her parents
years and his parent was her parents were strapped his pants were stressed so
were strapped his pants were stressed so deal with that deal with what conditions
deal with that deal with what conditions are you creating now in your life that
are you creating now in your life that create more stress for you
create more stress for you are you taking care of your body are you
are you taking care of your body are you exercising are you eating well do you
exercising are you eating well do you get out there in nature nature is a
get out there in nature nature is a certain kind of Harmony to it which
certain kind of Harmony to it which actually calms the mind you know so are
actually calms the mind you know so are you doing all these things if you're not
you doing all these things if you're not all you're doing is medicating a symptom
all you're doing is medicating a symptom if you are taking the medication
if you are taking the medication specifically to help you focus but
specifically to help you focus but you're working on his other issues
you're working on his other issues you have a much full life and you may
you have a much full life and you may find you don't need the medication after
find you don't need the medication after all you you came off the medication for
all you you came off the medication for your add yeah
your add yeah um because I'm a
um because I'm a because I'm just not that medically well
because I'm just not that medically well versed what's the difference between AD
versed what's the difference between AD ADD and ADHD it's you know it's a kind
ADD and ADHD it's you know it's a kind of a confusion it is just simply means
of a confusion it is just simply means that the hyperactivity is present okay
that the hyperactivity is present okay so you can have ADD with or without
so you can have ADD with or without hyperactivity okay so the actual you
hyperactivity okay so the actual you know proper way to divide it is a d
and in Brackets HD so that in indicating that the hyperactivity may or may not be
that the hyperactivity may or may not be there got you so you you you were on
there got you so you you you were on medication you did the work you know not
medication you did the work you know not on medication yeah
on medication yeah um do you still have the symptoms of ADD
um do you still have the symptoms of ADD to a certain degree but not in the way
to a certain degree but not in the way that anyway Bloods my life like one
that anyway Bloods my life like one thing I completely be sure that when I
thing I completely be sure that when I go on a speaker I'm going to lose
go on a speaker I'm going to lose something I'm going to lose my
something I'm going to lose my my portable electrical
my portable electrical tooth cleaner where I'm gonna in this
tooth cleaner where I'm gonna in this case I left my rain jacket in Budapest
case I left my rain jacket in Budapest when I came here and I I you can take it
when I came here and I I you can take it for granted that my attention will just
for granted that my attention will just not notice something that I haven't
not notice something that I haven't packed yet that's okay I'm going back to
packed yet that's okay I'm going back to Budapest next week so I get to get my
Budapest next week so I get to get my rain jacket back but sometimes it's the
rain jacket back but sometimes it's the cost of being me so what you know so no
cost of being me so what you know so no not in every way
not in every way but that's not the point nobody's life
but that's not the point nobody's life has to be perfect it just has to be a
has to be perfect it just has to be a life that I I want to live and I can
life that I I want to live and I can enjoy living
enjoy living that I have you know so who cares if
that I have you know so who cares if sometimes I forget something or I lose
sometimes I forget something or I lose something or even if I'm listening to a
something or even if I'm listening to a symphony and I can't keep my attention
symphony and I can't keep my attention on it okay so I can't
on it okay so I can't this you talk about there's some toxic
this you talk about there's some toxic Society yeah
do you think society's getting more toxic and if so why what measure shall
toxic and if so why what measure shall we use you know if you use the measure
we use you know if you use the measure of a number of kids being medicated
of a number of kids being medicated a number of adults having chronic
a number of adults having chronic illness autoimmune disease a number of
illness autoimmune disease a number of students University students
students University students being depressed contemplating suicide
being depressed contemplating suicide number of children in the United States
number of children in the United States killing themselves
killing themselves um
um the number of people on medications of
the number of people on medications of all kinds
all kinds the degree of safety that people have in
the degree of safety that people have in society the the rancor or peace that
society the the rancor or peace that characterizes political discourse in
characterizes political discourse in this world the
intolerable fact that eight people in the world I think own as much as the
the world I think own as much as the bottom half
bottom half as the bottom 3.5 billion
as the bottom 3.5 billion you know if I look at all those things
you know if I look at all those things by those measures if you look at what's
by those measures if you look at what's happening to the environment
happening to the environment if I look at the fact that the people
if I look at the fact that the people who are the worst polluters in the
who are the worst polluters in the environment also happen to be the most
environment also happen to be the most successful people you know by a certain
successful people you know by a certain measure of success
measure of success um
um by any number of parameters if I look at
by any number of parameters if I look at um
um oh
oh racism still affects the lives of so
racism still affects the lives of so many people
many people um and and not just affected in an
um and and not just affected in an emotional sense but actually
emotional sense but actually physiologically you know
it's a this is a toxic society and those measures are getting worse they're not
measures are getting worse they're not getting better and inequality is getting
getting better and inequality is getting worse here in the UK and elsewhere
worse here in the UK and elsewhere so yeah I think it's getting more toxic
so yeah I think it's getting more toxic what's the antidote well
what's the antidote well um how about we go back to this word
um how about we go back to this word awareness like like people just have to
awareness like like people just have to get that this is how it is and in the
get that this is how it is and in the last chapter I don't lay out a political
last chapter I don't lay out a political program you know I don't see that as my
program you know I don't see that as my role to do that I have my own political
role to do that I have my own political ideas and preferences but I don't want
ideas and preferences but I don't want to impose them on the reader but I do
to impose them on the reader but I do say
say first of all we have to lose our
first of all we have to lose our illusions
illusions that this is that this normality is
that this is that this normality is actually healthy or natural we have to
actually healthy or natural we have to just get
just get cognizant that what we consider to be
cognizant that what we consider to be normal is actually bad for us
normal is actually bad for us um number one number two
um number one number two um
um just if we introduced the concept of
just if we introduced the concept of trauma into Health Care
trauma into Health Care like the average doctor again strange to
like the average doctor again strange to say doesn't hear a single lecture in
say doesn't hear a single lecture in their medical training about the impact
their medical training about the impact of trauma on physical or mental health
of trauma on physical or mental health which is astonishing given that it was a
which is astonishing given that it was a British psychologist Dr Richard benthal
British psychologist Dr Richard benthal who pointed out not that many years ago
who pointed out not that many years ago that the evidence linking what we call
that the evidence linking what we call mental illness and childhood adversity
mental illness and childhood adversity is about as strong as the evidence
is about as strong as the evidence linking smoking and lung cancer
linking smoking and lung cancer and the average physician doesn't hear a
and the average physician doesn't hear a word about that it's astonishing
word about that it's astonishing education teachers if they understood
education teachers if they understood Child Development brain development the
Child Development brain development the developmental factors that I that
developmental factors that I that children need that I
children need that I cite in this book and if they understood
cite in this book and if they understood how trauma affects his capacity to learn
how trauma affects his capacity to learn to pay attention
to pay attention and to behave in functional ways The
and to behave in functional ways The Daily Telegraph
Daily Telegraph here in London not that long ago was
here in London not that long ago was bemoaning the fact that kids aren't
bemoaning the fact that kids aren't caned anymore in schools
caned anymore in schools I mean they were but they were but they
I mean they were but they were but they were moaning about is that we no longer
were moaning about is that we no longer traumatized kids quite as harshly as we
traumatized kids quite as harshly as we used to
used to that's what it that's all it does caning
that's what it that's all it does caning so if teachers understood that the
so if teachers understood that the behaviors on the part of children are
behaviors on the part of children are actually manifestations of emotional
actually manifestations of emotional dynamics of frustration and needs not
dynamics of frustration and needs not being met and and very often of trauma
being met and and very often of trauma that would change the educational system
that would change the educational system if the legal system understood it
if the legal system understood it that that most people facing the
that that most people facing the criminal justice system are actually
criminal justice system are actually traumatized people they could actually
traumatized people they could actually be rehabilitated uh and and and healed
be rehabilitated uh and and and healed if we understood that instead of just
if we understood that instead of just exposing them to harsh punishments we
exposing them to harsh punishments we actually treated them like human beings
actually treated them like human beings who may have done things that are
who may have done things that are unacceptable but that came from traumas
unacceptable but that came from traumas they couldn't have helped and that they
they couldn't have helped and that they can be helped back to
can be helped back to um healthy functioning as we know from
um healthy functioning as we know from lots of experience just that little
lots of experience just that little trauma information would change society
trauma information would change society so that's what I can offer as a
so that's what I can offer as a physician what about parents what do
physician what about parents what do they need to know yeah well if parents
they need to know yeah well if parents actually understood first of all
actually understood first of all that the first three years are
that the first three years are everything that if if they get the
everything that if if they get the template right in the first three years
template right in the first three years they can hardly set a foot wrong
they can hardly set a foot wrong afterwards
afterwards but in the other hand if we're not
but in the other hand if we're not present for our kids emotionally if we
present for our kids emotionally if we don't understand them if we don't see
don't understand them if we don't see them
them if we don't
if we don't attune to their emotional states we're
attune to their emotional states we're going to hurt them
going to hurt them and if they understood what the needs of
and if they understood what the needs of children are when I mentioned some of
children are when I mentioned some of them for play for
them for play for experience of all emotions for
experience of all emotions for unconditional loving attachment for the
unconditional loving attachment for the child being able to rest from having to
child being able to rest from having to work to make the relationship work
work to make the relationship work so the child doesn't have to be good or
so the child doesn't have to be good or nice or beautiful or or or or successful
nice or beautiful or or or or successful or they just have to be
approval and acceptance on them if parents just understood that
parents just understood that and if they understood how important it
and if they understood how important it is that they take care of their own
is that they take care of their own emotional needs so that a child doesn't
emotional needs so that a child doesn't have to take responsibility
have to take responsibility like perhaps you did for the parent
like perhaps you did for the parent stresses
stresses your parents understood all that and if
your parents understood all that and if Society actually understood her
Society actually understood her importance parenting was and it
importance parenting was and it supported parents who needed the support
supported parents who needed the support to be there for their kids
to be there for their kids it wouldn't be financially
it wouldn't be financially costly it would save us a lot of money
costly it would save us a lot of money not to mention we live a lot more
not to mention we live a lot more happier kids
happier kids who don't need to be on medications so
who don't need to be on medications so yeah and lastly schools schools well
yeah and lastly schools schools well again like I said about Educators if
again like I said about Educators if Educators well here's the thing if you
Educators well here's the thing if you look at how does the human brain develop
look at how does the human brain develop I quite an article I quote an article
I quite an article I quote an article from the Harvard Center on the
from the Harvard Center on the developing child that appeared in a
developing child that appeared in a journal of Pediatrics official Journal
journal of Pediatrics official Journal of the American Pediatric Academy in
of the American Pediatric Academy in 2012 February
2012 February the article said that the human being
the article said that the human being developed it to do a complex process
developed it to do a complex process that begins before birth and continues
that begins before birth and continues into adulthood okay now that means a we
into adulthood okay now that means a we take care of the emotional needs of
take care of the emotional needs of pregnant women
pregnant women number one number two if it conditions
number one number two if it conditions into adulthood continues into adulthood
into adulthood continues into adulthood then the job of the schools if they
then the job of the schools if they understand it right is not to teach kids
understand it right is not to teach kids what year
what year the ball of the battle of Australis took
the ball of the battle of Australis took place or the ball of Battle of Waterloo
place or the ball of Battle of Waterloo um or or you know algebra any of any of
um or or you know algebra any of any of that stuff the most important job of the
that stuff the most important job of the schools is to promote healthy brain
schools is to promote healthy brain development
development with a child who's with healthy brain
with a child who's with healthy brain development will actually be naturally
development will actually be naturally curious they'll want to know about
curious they'll want to know about history that we came to uh to absorb the
history that we came to uh to absorb the skills of algebra they'll want to know
skills of algebra they'll want to know how to use a computer and they'll want
how to use a computer and they'll want to know
to know um how to write properly a kid will want
um how to write properly a kid will want to do that spontaneously because Mastery
to do that spontaneously because Mastery and and learning these are human hungers
and and learning these are human hungers the human needs
the human needs so
so in other words the most important job of
in other words the most important job of the schools is not to cram the kids full
the schools is not to cram the kids full of information
of information but to help them develop healthy brains
but to help them develop healthy brains what does that require
what does that require safety above all lack of pressure
safety above all lack of pressure healthy relationship with nurturing
healthy relationship with nurturing adults
adults and if the kids are not going to spend
and if the kids are not going to spend their time with the adult but they with
their time with the adult but they with the parents which they can't in this
the parents which they can't in this Society like they used to through a
Society like they used to through a human evolution let them spend their
human evolution let them spend their time with adults who are emotionally
time with adults who are emotionally nurturing and emotionally penetrating
nurturing and emotionally penetrating the attentive to the child's needs now
the attentive to the child's needs now you're going to have schools that are
you're going to have schools that are going to really kids teach kids
going to really kids teach kids something and where kids will want to
something and where kids will want to learn and it's very simple
learn and it's very simple it doesn't take more training and it
it doesn't take more training and it doesn't take more well they take some
doesn't take more well they take some training perhaps but not more than what
training perhaps but not more than what teachers are getting now so that's sort
teachers are getting now so that's sort of a take in education
of a take in education I was thinking there about the
I was thinking there about the importance of doing
importance of doing certain psychological tests on certain
certain psychological tests on certain teachers because if they are also
teachers because if they are also passing on a generational cycle yeah of
passing on a generational cycle yeah of their own at a time when my brain is
their own at a time when my brain is still being developed they can have a
still being developed they can have a huge impact positively or negatively on
huge impact positively or negatively on my absolutely on my life in the same way
my absolutely on my life in the same way that my parents could absolutely uh it's
that my parents could absolutely uh it's quite remarkable teachers don't know how
quite remarkable teachers don't know how much power they have because of the
much power they have because of the vulnerability of the young brain
vulnerability of the young brain and well-meaning teachers
and well-meaning teachers it will sometimes behave in ways that
it will sometimes behave in ways that are really hurtful to kids just because
are really hurtful to kids just because they don't get it not because they don't
they don't get it not because they don't mean well so I've had many adults sit in
mean well so I've had many adults sit in my office
my office say with tears in their eyes about
say with tears in their eyes about something a teacher said to them three
something a teacher said to them three decades before
decades before like the classroom
like the classroom the class will continue and Johnny comes
the class will continue and Johnny comes back to Earth
back to Earth this kind of sarcastic little dig
this kind of sarcastic little dig can under my child's dignity and sense
can under my child's dignity and sense of self so easily so if teachers just
of self so easily so if teachers just understood how powerful they are and how
understood how powerful they are and how important they are in helping to promote
important they are in helping to promote healthy brain development
healthy brain development I think the profession would take in a
I think the profession would take in a whole new meaning that would be much
whole new meaning that would be much more satisfying than it is right now
more satisfying than it is right now it's not the fault of individual
it's not the fault of individual teachers we're talking about a system
teachers we're talking about a system that isn't that is toxic
okay but we have closing tradition on this podcast oh okay where the previous
this podcast oh okay where the previous guest asks a question
guest asks a question for the next guest I didn't get to see
for the next guest I didn't get to see it until I opened the book so there's a
it until I opened the book so there's a question written here for you before I
question written here for you before I ask you this question I did have a
ask you this question I did have a question of my own which was you know
question of my own which was you know you're in your 70s now
you're in your 70s now um
um what are you still working on in terms
what are you still working on in terms of your own traumas is there anything
of your own traumas is there anything even though you're you're in a later
even though you're you're in a later stage of your own life that you you're
stage of your own life that you you're still sort of struggling with as it
still sort of struggling with as it relates to that Puppet Master pulling on
relates to that Puppet Master pulling on the strings and
the strings and that kind of analogy that we gave
that kind of analogy that we gave earlier
earlier yeah
um it's a sense of peace
a sense of peace when I'm not doing anything
just being the capacity just to be
um that's something I'm still looking for not well not looking
still looking for not well not looking for like I was looking for a lost puppy
for like I was looking for a lost puppy but
but I'm still searching myself for
I'm still searching myself for and where exactly does that come from in
and where exactly does that come from in your own diagnosis
oh what if I tell you when I find out I mean I can give you a textbook answer
I mean I can give you a textbook answer but it wouldn't be authentic okay
but it wouldn't be authentic okay so you don't know
so you don't know entirely I have some senses I have some
entirely I have some senses I have some ideas and then
ideas and then um
um it
it foreign
it really means being okay with my mind the way it is
being okay with my mind the way it is and not needing it to be any different
and not needing it to be any different that's what it would mean
that's what it would mean which means if I'm sitting there
which means if I'm sitting there for five minutes I don't know how to
for five minutes I don't know how to reach for the cell phone to occupy my
reach for the cell phone to occupy my mind
mind and now in the midst of this busy book
and now in the midst of this busy book tour and all the speaking I do I don't I
tour and all the speaking I do I don't I don't do enough to to take care of that
don't do enough to to take care of that quiet
quiet little voice inside myself I don't
little voice inside myself I don't I think it would take some attention
I think it would take some attention I can't either though I can't sit for
I can't either though I can't sit for two I can five minutes I couldn't sit
two I can five minutes I couldn't sit for five seconds without grabbing my
for five seconds without grabbing my phone that's weird I noticed the other
phone that's weird I noticed the other day that I was like going to the toilet
day that I was like going to the toilet and I had no intention of using my phone
and I had no intention of using my phone in the toilet yeah but I went to get my
in the toilet yeah but I went to get my phone because you can't be alone with
phone because you can't be alone with yourself yeah I can't be alone with
yourself yeah I can't be alone with myself yeah I can't
myself yeah I can't sitting for 30 seconds you know my brain
sitting for 30 seconds you know my brain is that is that because they've built
is that is that because they've built these algorithms to to stimulate my
these algorithms to to stimulate my dopamine or is it because there's
dopamine or is it because there's something in me I guess it goes back to
something in me I guess it goes back to a point about addiction well it's both I
a point about addiction well it's both I mean they're they're certainly creative
mean they're they're certainly creative algorithms to stimulate your brain and
algorithms to stimulate your brain and get you hooked on that dopamine head
get you hooked on that dopamine head you're sure if we should they call that
you're sure if we should they call that neural marketing neural marketing can
neural marketing neural marketing can you get that yeah they work on your
you get that yeah they work on your brain to get you know to get you
brain to get you know to get you addicted but it also comes from an
addicted but it also comes from an earlier discomfort with the self that
earlier discomfort with the self that predates
predates any cell phone use it goes back to
any cell phone use it goes back to earliest childhood where it couldn't
earliest childhood where it couldn't have been comfortable to be
have been comfortable to be just with yourself because of
just with yourself because of circumstances
interesting interesting yeah my because I've Got Friends that don't have the
I've Got Friends that don't have the same the same addiction with their cell
same the same addiction with their cell phones that I do they they can take it
phones that I do they they can take it or leave it they put it outside their
or leave it they put it outside their bedroom when they go to bed charging in
bedroom when they go to bed charging in the kitchen I'm like how I have to hold
the kitchen I'm like how I have to hold mine like my pillow yeah exactly well
mine like my pillow yeah exactly well like your little safety pillow and
like your little safety pillow and what's the first thing you do when you
what's the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning I grab it with
wake up in the morning I grab it with one eye open and all that gunk in my eye
one eye open and all that gunk in my eye I'm like trying to just you know yeah
I'm like trying to just you know yeah yeah we'll have if both you and I work
yeah we'll have if both you and I work are not doing that so much okay I'll
are not doing that so much okay I'll give you my number you'll let man we
give you my number you'll let man we should we shouldn't discuss by phone how
should we shouldn't discuss by phone how we're getting on with this that's just
we're getting on with this that's just another reason to use my phone but next
another reason to use my phone but next time I speak to you okay in person you
time I speak to you okay in person you can update me on how you're getting on
can update me on how you're getting on with that I am I am I am working on it
with that I am I am I am working on it I'm working on it
I'm working on it I think I've got to become more
I think I've got to become more cognizant of the cost of that addiction
cognizant of the cost of that addiction well exactly
well exactly to really I know one of the costs is
to really I know one of the costs is meaningful connections and presence with
meaningful connections and presence with them with and in the cost to
them with and in the cost to interpersonal relationships but
interpersonal relationships but maybe I haven't had the the cost
maybe I haven't had the the cost um impact me enough yet maybe
um impact me enough yet maybe the question left for you
but I don't know the signature so I'll have to figure that out later but is
have to figure that out later but is what's your selfish dream
um you know what I'm not sure how to sit with that question because I'm not
with that question because I'm not trying to get out of it but I just don't
trying to get out of it but I just don't look at my own reaction to it
look at my own reaction to it um
you know at this point I don't have too many what does it mean
I don't have too many what does it mean selfish by the way
selfish by the way let me ask you that what does that mean
let me ask you that what does that mean something that
something that is for me at the expense of others
is for me at the expense of others I don't think I have any dreams like
I don't think I have any dreams like that left I might have not might have I
that left I might have not might have I did have
did have at some point but if I have a dream
at some point but if I have a dream for myself in that sense of
for myself in that sense of self-enhancing dream something that
self-enhancing dream something that enhances my ego or something well if
enhances my ego or something well if this book sold a billion copies well
this book sold a billion copies well that that'd be a nice selfish dream you
that that'd be a nice selfish dream you know
know but
but I don't know how else to answer that
I don't know how else to answer that um I do have dreams but they're more
um I do have dreams but they're more about
about the state of the world that I like to
the state of the world that I like to see the the world I'd like to see future
see the the world I'd like to see future Generations in Arabic selfless Dreams
Generations in Arabic selfless Dreams yeah well I don't know what this
yeah well I don't know what this self-loves because it certainly involves
self-loves because it certainly involves my own history and certainly would make
my own history and certainly would make me feel better you know so in that sense
me feel better you know so in that sense it's selfish you might say but they're
it's selfish you might say but they're not they don't have to do with personal
not they don't have to do with personal I have enough you know I've done enough
I have enough you know I've done enough and I have enough so I don't have any
and I have enough so I don't have any anything any anything lacking that I
anything any anything lacking that I need to dream about
need to dream about all of our selfless streams are also
all of our selfless streams are also very much selfless selfish in that
very much selfless selfish in that regard as well they're going to help
regard as well they're going to help themselves in a different sense I mean
themselves in a different sense I mean any dreams I have or for a better world
any dreams I have or for a better world certainly or certainly have the function
certainly or certainly have the function of making me feel better
of making me feel better of of maybe even
of of maybe even the stuff that happened to me or the
the stuff that happened to me or the stuff that happened to you it would mean
stuff that happened to you it would mean a lot to me if they didn't happen to any
a lot to me if they didn't happen to any more children
more children you know so in the sense that it would
you know so in the sense that it would mean a lot to me you might say it's
mean a lot to me you might say it's selfish but it's not purely about me
selfish but it's not purely about me it's about something larger I'm not
it's about something larger I'm not trying to paint myself as some kind of a
trying to paint myself as some kind of a altruistic Saint I'm just saying that
altruistic Saint I'm just saying that would make me feel better if I really
would make me feel better if I really knew that kids in Gaza didn't have to
knew that kids in Gaza didn't have to face any more bombings if kids in Israel
face any more bombings if kids in Israel didn't have to face anymore uh danger of
didn't have to face anymore uh danger of terrorist attacks if um not that I see
terrorist attacks if um not that I see inequality there but I like that for
inequality there but I like that for both of them if kids in Ukraine they
both of them if kids in Ukraine they need to live under the the threat of
need to live under the the threat of missiles falling
missiles falling if people in Russia didn't have to feel
if people in Russia didn't have to feel to live with the fear of
to live with the fear of perhaps a nuclear conflict or the young
perhaps a nuclear conflict or the young men being conscripted into a war
men being conscripted into a war if uh if kids in Britain
if uh if kids in Britain you know didn't have to live in poverty
you know didn't have to live in poverty wouldn't that make you feel better you
wouldn't that make you feel better you know so to the extent that it makes us
know so to the extent that it makes us feel better you might say it's selfish
feel better you might say it's selfish but
but is it
gabble thank you my pleasure thank you so much thank you
my pleasure thank you so much thank you so much for for writing such an
so much for for writing such an important book I I think my only wish is
important book I I think my only wish is that I discovered this book sooner
that I discovered this book sooner because I think so many of my I think it
because I think so many of my I think it would have liberated that's a good word
would have liberated that's a good word liberated me from a series of things
liberated me from a series of things that would have helped me to live a much
that would have helped me to live a much better life and to understand myself
better life and to understand myself that's that's the point of awareness
that's that's the point of awareness that we talked about I know that your
that we talked about I know that your Advanced stage is over isn't it yeah
Advanced stage is over isn't it yeah I think we all want the answers even
I think we all want the answers even sooner because we we reflect on some of
sooner because we we reflect on some of the consequences or the mistakes or the
the consequences or the mistakes or the that we made not that those are I'm
that we made not that those are I'm imprisoned by any of those but it's you
imprisoned by any of those but it's you know and so it's so wonderful that this
know and so it's so wonderful that this book now exists you're you're a name
book now exists you're you're a name that I I started to be peppered with by
that I I started to be peppered with by my audience over and over again
my audience over and over again specifically in the last 12 months
specifically in the last 12 months people it's really really young people
people it's really really young people were messaging me and asking me to have
were messaging me and asking me to have a conversation with you about the topics
a conversation with you about the topics we've talked about today things like
we've talked about today things like ADHD and their trauma and so much and
ADHD and their trauma and so much and you know I sit here every day talking to
you know I sit here every day talking to um a lot a lot of people on this podcast
um a lot a lot of people on this podcast and
and um I think my understanding of trauma
um I think my understanding of trauma has forever been
has forever been redefined by both this conversation
redefined by both this conversation today but also by your book and I really
today but also by your book and I really I I'm so thankful to you because I think
I I'm so thankful to you because I think that'll help me speak on the topic with
that'll help me speak on the topic with more accuracy
more accuracy um and therefore um hopefully help other
um and therefore um hopefully help other people understand their their own trauma
people understand their their own trauma in a more um meaningful way it's just
in a more um meaningful way it's just such an important book well thank you so
such an important book well thank you so much thank you so much for giving me the
much thank you so much for giving me the platform to to talk about my work and
platform to to talk about my work and and just the opportunity to meet you
and just the opportunity to meet you thanks a lot and it's written in such an
thanks a lot and it's written in such an accessible way yeah which is so
accessible way yeah which is so important because that means it can
important because that means it can reach even more people thank you so much
reach even more people thank you so much okay thank you
okay thank you [Music]
[Music] thank you
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