have to be able to see through the false [Laughter]
[Laughter]
pretender but I just think that's
wonderful I mean because most you know
be when you're if you're gonna write a
work of art you you know it's really
hard and you try to lower expectations
right but what is sure she do he I mean
so the sweaty he puts words in the mouth
of sweaty I mean that what higher
expectation expectation for Audrey could
you have him what he does is come up
with the most beautiful do gallant
Andris Greg I think that's when the
great anyway so he wrote a work of
philosophy I mean he didn't stuff I mean
he's an anti-intellectual
but he's the most intellectual person
imaginable right right because yeah in
his ability to show how we're not really
able to put it all together right in the
context of some deeper experience of
your own self and consciousness so given
all this how did you decide that you
wanted to study gun geisha I must say
that was pretty much a career move
because Maya is the philosophy that is
sort of them similar to contemporary
analytic philosophy and also nya is the
come on yaya means a critical reasoning
right the technical aspect they are the
you know in the in traditions from you
know Plato Aristotle and so on
philosophy the feel the may ta the
skills our argument so I mean you know I
love yoga mystical experience but as a
teacher in a professional academic and
so in in the forestry its argument and
the ayah teaches all the schools
argument fallacies right to hate
promises and Astana's all the fallacies
and so on and and and and and as you
know an employee of the University I had
to teach baby logic and you know
critical reasoning and and so on and and
and also Iowa's under studied there Plus
look there's all this literature in in
Vedanta but some of this goes like
sunken yoga that really isn't so much
literature but has a rich rich long
tradition and I don't know to sort of
looking around and what my colleagues
were interested in etcetera etcetera and
and sort of the state of the profession
and you know that has a specialization
in the study of classical Indian
philosophies I just saw engage as the
guy who was the least accessible who
should be accessible frame and then I
was lucky enough to be able to find
Ramona to toilet area who but you know
who's great Monica but in his heart of
hearts he said fish died why do they
daunted he had right so so that's not
unusual for people to have observed
professional outside as a teacher and
phosphorus and ionica I'm just kind of
like a traditional pundit in that way
but you know in their heart of hearts
they you know really love the book of
like eat on new karna shots so how do
they like well maybe even you how did
you or them
and of reconciling being such an expert
on this particular tradition but also
having these different emotional
philosophical commitments oh I don't
know a lot of people are like that right
I mean no I mean they are but I mean but
but given like some of these arguments
can really cut to the core of other
tradition those traditions you believe
do you find that there is a lot of churn
because because one of my concerns would
and these are the things I brought up
with other other scholars is also are we
at this point so fixed on these schools
as they were back know 500 years ago
that we're not seeing the development of
these schools due to new arguments and
new evidence methodologies yeah yeah no
I yeah I I think the NiO vedantins
should be better appreciated and but I
the not just in universities in United
States and Europe and so on but in India
itself the richness of the classical
tradition is not appreciated in the
academic sphere right there may be some
aesthetics russa aesthetics and so on
and I don't know in linguistics they may
study upon any a little bit and so on
but there's a kind of break with the
coming of science and so on I mean it's
not just in India but I'd say China sure
so and and I don't know I take it that
in us romana to tarnish our
and others like Jonah took another fatal
in car and others that I studied with
they really weren't part of the academic
system of India hmm right I mean the
vidya pitas I may say you know you know
the vision of the vidya pita that's
supposed to be deemed a university but
it's not really looked at in India as
the same level as a university where you
know I don't know geology and biology in
the Hall those Sciences are taught and
so there needs to be a lot more
integration it seems to me and study of
the classical traditions and and you
know I don't say that as I don't know as
you know in a political way sure a kind
of retrenchment into your own tradition
but just having a sense of the richness
of the classical tradition it seems like
there was a kind of break with Cohill
ISM and should be more immigration yeah
because I mean like even if you look at
the history of Naya I mean yeah you go
yeah I add that it becomes joins in it
becomes numb you know adjoins in the
vitiation cut and then geisha but then
at some point I mean there's a
continuity of change that's happening
but I feel like some point what we're
doing especially people like me included
is we're just looking at the past and
not thinking about how did these
concepts apply to the world were
engaging with like for example how does
Naya play a role in and there's a book
that you didn't like see this can you
see this book oh yeah I see it okay yeah
I mean I'm a little embarrassed it's a
little expensive but I think they came
out in paperback but it's called
epistemology in classical is it from Rutledge
Rutledge
yeah Rutledge okay good you know I'll
get that yeah I don't know I I take up
to Getty your problem at the end for her
new perspective yeah I think I actually
and I also argue in some other places
the introduction to to the translation
of gong geishas cetera Chintamani
they've got I mean it's for the it it's
because it's not entirely for your
problems but as a theory of knowledge of
the everyday world I'm not talking about
yoga and ramen at this point but just
you know there's a couple in the table
you know here we are talking on
computers knowledge like that it's a
fantastic system it's what's called an
externalist system it has talks about
causal connections between the objects
and the Knorr friend on the northern
arden is quite detailed it has and I
don't know it's recommendable it to me
it should be a player in contemporary
totally contemporary epistemology no and
I agree I've always because right now
all you end up reading about is Vedanta
unconnected to quantum physics how you
know it's all like that's hard to see
but yeah having an epistemology of
everyday knowledge is easy to see right
right yeah as in to a perception
inference and testimony also there's
something called analogy is sugar but
but you know it's a very straightforward
system very sort of common sense and so
my question to you and then like for
example in perception right in both in
the Indian system it's or at least Nia
and some sense even Sankhya when you
perceive an object it for it to be a
proper Commissioner or truthful
cognition it has to see the object as it
is right not at all not not through some
sort of representational ism which in
some sense like in current biology right
don't we think about the world to
representational ism
so how would not contend with biological
understanding or neurological
understanding of perception no problem
the transmission of information from the
way the object is through the sense
organs to
you know our moments of cognition
knowledge right our are the fresh news
that we get from our from the processes
that originate in in sensory connections
yeah some of the some of us mysterious
but so what
you know we don't want understands today
today everything that goes on in that
process but the key idea here with Maya
is that the process when it's working
correctly is giving us knowledge right
and so when the conditions that are in
place now and if we know something like
I don't know the objects too far away
you've got hepatitis they're various
things I don't know it's not como
whatever yeah you guys can see the two
moons etcetera we can identify what are
called epistemically tors that even
though any-any perception you take to be
perceptual produced in that and you just
sort of automatically do so you've got a
right to assert the content the
information and that right there is two
feeders some are standing defeatist like
you know in advance that so-and-so is a
liar so that in testimony you don't
believe what that person says but if an
ordinary person says some do you deserve
you you you you you you you take it
unless you have some reason for not
believing same with perception so you
just your senses unless you know that
there's some special problem with the
object like I don't know it's really
small we can't you know we can't
perceive atoms so we have to do
complicated inferences it gets tougher
optical illusions right but they do have
this whole sort of approach that it
seems to me is workable as a mythology
is a theory of knowledge without the day
you because the detail of the Sun the
details of the scientific process well
if we know that somebody's optic nerve
is cut
they have sort of the equivalents of
that they know that that people that are
blind right I know people that are deaf
there's something wrong with their
hearing organ right they they do stuff
like that and so so but you know what's
so great to me about classical Indian
philosophy and especially epistemology
is the phenomenology right because I
assume that gung Gatien someone had sis
experience pretty much the way I do
right and you know tree's leaves colors
and and and son and he's sort of talking
about ways of talking and they you know
so I don't see that there's such a such
a big obstacle to understanding what he
and others have to tell us now you know
again this has to do with everyday
knowledge not kind of meditational no I
get that I mean so like opposes to you
so they use a typical example of the red
flower right but when you look at a red
flower you apprehend the color you apprehend structure you see all of that
apprehend structure you see all of that but from our perspective if you look
but from our perspective if you look like the flower is red but in the
like the flower is red but in the scientific explanation the flower is
scientific explanation the flower is actually not red right it's the red is
actually not red right it's the red is is coming into our eyes but what we're
is coming into our eyes but what we're interested in right it's what we're
interested in right it's what we're interested in is the knowledge that the
interested in is the knowledge that the flower is red right now who cares what
flower is red right now who cares what is how is explain okay we wouldn't when
is how is explain okay we wouldn't when you talk to somebody like I don't know
you talk to somebody like I don't know your girlfriend her wife she says really
your girlfriend her wife she says really like to have some red flowers great and
like to have some red flowers great and you say ah well that flowers red oh yeah
you say ah well that flowers red oh yeah well that's a good one bring that one so
well that's a good one bring that one so it's not to like successfully bring the
it's not to like successfully bring the red flower so didn't you in some way
red flower so didn't you in some way know yeah the power was red when was it
know yeah the power was red when was it relevant to know
relevant to know the red is a matter of no no photons
the red is a matter of no no photons bounce it's not really red and sense of
bounce it's not really red and sense of blah blah blah blah blah okay
blah blah blah blah blah okay think the idea of bodies mind imposed
think the idea of bodies mind imposed properties that the qualification idea
properties that the qualification idea that's quite current in red right but
that's quite current in red right but and then and they're really worried
and then and they're really worried about that true universals versus mind
about that true universals versus mind imposed properties you know jati as
imposed properties you know jati as opposed to something that we impose upon
opposed to something that we impose upon the thing but that ontological project
the thing but that ontological project is so fraught with difficulties that nya
is so fraught with difficulties that nya cos ultimately seem to meetings are
cos ultimately seem to meetings are given up they you know raghu nothing
given up they you know raghu nothing tries to get but you know so far as what
tries to get but you know so far as what we're really interested in is that is
we're really interested in is that is getting along in the world action
getting along in the world action knowledge guiding action we can skip
knowledge guiding action we can skip over some of those ontological problems
over some of those ontological problems we don't we realize that we don't get
we don't we realize that we don't get all the properties particularly the tiny
all the properties particularly the tiny properties relations of and look when
properties relations of and look when you see a person or your or the door you
you see a person or your or the door you don't see the backside how much of a
don't see the backside how much of a person if I put my arm behind you the
person if I put my arm behind you the door right I mean are you seeing me are
door right I mean are you seeing me are you just seeing my arm I think you have
you just seeing my arm I think you have to see do you have to walk around and
to see do you have to walk around and see my backside in order to say hey I
see my backside in order to say hey I saw whoa I mean we're always getting
saw whoa I mean we're always getting certain perspectives we never get
certain perspectives we never get everything sure me you know come on
everything sure me you know come on you you you are sum of all kinds of time
you you you are sum of all kinds of time slices right right you know I'm getting
slices right right you know I'm getting just a few of them good good
just a few of them good good gosh I feel like I acquainted with you
gosh I feel like I acquainted with you now even though it's through this medium
now even though it's through this medium and so on so so sure you know there's
and so on so so sure you know there's lots of properties that you have that I
lots of properties that you have that I you know and I'm not going to be aware
you know and I'm not going to be aware of so I don't I don't get the whole
of so I don't I don't get the whole thing as it is really in itself right
thing as it is really in itself right really you know I
really you know I get enough to be able to tell Guha can I
get enough to be able to tell Guha can I talk to you and you know I probably
talk to you and you know I probably could recognize you and so so yes so I
could recognize you and so so yes so I set that level of communication and
set that level of communication and action yeah we're making choices not in
action yeah we're making choices not in scientific explanation I grant you Yaya
scientific explanation I grant you Yaya is Trott trying to complete with
is Trott trying to complete with scientific explanations it's ontology
four kinds of atoms etc is limited that yeah yeah it's I I wouldn't want to try
yeah yeah it's I I wouldn't want to try to offend too much about its various
to offend too much about its various ontological positions though I don't
ontological positions though I don't know some like the qualification there's
know some like the qualification there's some really good stuff in there try
some really good stuff in there try really good stuff about universals but I
really good stuff about universals but I think it's better with the logic
think it's better with the logic epistemology of knowledge and you know
epistemology of knowledge and you know everyday knowledge not scientific
everyday knowledge not scientific knowledge and you know I don't know and
knowledge and you know I don't know and then the deeper metaphysical questions
then the deeper metaphysical questions like is there the word who decides the
like is there the word who decides the universe etc etc
universe etc etc come on those orders are very abstract
come on those orders are very abstract and I don't know where they connect with
and I don't know where they connect with arguments in in the Western tradition
arguments in in the Western tradition from Aristotle through Thomas Aquinas no
from Aristotle through Thomas Aquinas no I I don't really think that science
I I don't really think that science undercuts very much of the AIA or even
undercuts very much of the AIA or even classical Indian philosophy as a whole
classical Indian philosophy as a whole except and you know maybe you know a
except and you know maybe you know a little limited and Sankhya its
little limited and Sankhya its understanding of it when they go you get
understanding of it when they go you get the nature yes ok there you know it's
the nature yes ok there you know it's it's really proto science there there's
it's really proto science there there's the Geisha worries a lot about some of
the Geisha worries a lot about some of the operations of the sense organs and
the operations of the sense organs and he doesn't have it right right but so so
he doesn't have it right right but so so what I mean it's very interesting to see
what I mean it's very interesting to see the weather that's relevant and I don't
the weather that's relevant and I don't think it is relevant for most of the
think it is relevant for most of the interactions we have in everyday life in
interactions we have in everyday life in everyday knowledge right great now now I
everyday knowledge right great now now I want to kind of shift a little bit
want to kind of shift a little bit towards your yoga book because the
towards your yoga book because the difficulty of talking about gung Geisha
difficulty of talking about gung Geisha stuff is so terse and it's very very
stuff is so terse and it's very very scholarly like you have to have a
scholarly like you have to have a somewhat understanding of the nya school
somewhat understanding of the nya school and put the schools and and other
and put the schools and and other schools of Indian time around that time
schools of Indian time around that time period to really get a sense of of the
period to really get a sense of of the the theory that young geisha spring
the theory that young geisha spring forward right so it's difficult why I
forward right so it's difficult why I imagine most of our my listeners don't
imagine most of our my listeners don't have a sense of even basic the ayah but
have a sense of even basic the ayah but but but if they understand that for nya
but but if they understand that for nya there are basically three ways we know
there are basically three ways we know things right perception inference and
things right perception inference and testimony yeah that's right but that's
testimony yeah that's right but that's not okay but that's I mean it's really
not okay but that's I mean it's really interesting in that sense that know nya
interesting in that sense that know nya has two 3-shot gonna has six right he's
has two 3-shot gonna has six right he's he puts a analogy and comparison and
he puts a analogy and comparison and forget these the last one well there's
forget these the last one well there's also non perception how do you know that
also non perception how do you know that the pot is not on the floor right I mean
the pot is not on the floor right I mean is that an inference or is that a
is that an inference or is that a perception or is there some special mode
perception or is there some special mode of knowledge called right that is a kind
of knowledge called right that is a kind of arcade topic I grant you yeah so but
of arcade topic I grant you yeah so but it's interesting too I mean it's funny
it's interesting too I mean it's funny because I think after the is schools
because I think after the is schools primarily all the other Hindu schools or
primarily all the other Hindu schools or all the traditional there nothing
all the traditional there nothing schools buy into the three only like all
schools buy into the three only like all the bunch of might school is definitely
the bunch of might school is definitely not even think I'll be never good that
not even think I'll be never good that only has two three - right he has a
only has two three - right he has a different agenda yeah well yeah and and
different agenda yeah well yeah and and by shizuka tries to eliminate testimony
by shizuka tries to eliminate testimony as a form of inference where you know
as a form of inference where you know that the that the testifier the speaker
that the that the testifier the speaker is an expert and you also believe you
is an expert and you also believe you know what as Kurt's say tend to be true
know what as Kurt's say tend to be true and so you make an inference of
and so you make an inference of someone saw I said be so as an expert so
someone saw I said be so as an expert so so he is probably true
so he is probably true and yeah I says no it's a it's the my
and yeah I says no it's a it's the my mom skies are right there's a special
mom skies are right there's a special way of knowing that comes from verbal
way of knowing that comes from verbal communication really I mean you know
communication really I mean you know come on that's a tremendously rich topic
come on that's a tremendously rich topic I mean what they say about election are
I mean what they say about election are indirect indication you know there's
indirect indication you know there's really interesting about I don't know
really interesting about I don't know secondary meaning ganga i'm gosia the
secondary meaning ganga i'm gosia the villages and the kosher i mean in the
villages and the kosher i mean in the conga well you know it's really on the
conga well you know it's really on the bank it's really it's really i mean i
bank it's really it's really i mean i mean i know your readers might think
mean i know your readers might think well that's kind of arcane but but i
well that's kind of arcane but but i think many would think that all
think many would think that all philosophies very k these young stream
philosophies very k these young stream philosophic topics that are addressed by
philosophic topics that are addressed by now and some of the other schools now it
now and some of the other schools now it seems to me that they danta they take
seems to me that they danta they take they they read the nya context they
they they read the nya context they learn this sort of how to reason you
learn this sort of how to reason you know words are watching 101 is is oh
know words are watching 101 is is oh yeah but then they're much more
yeah but then they're much more concerned with something that is hard to
concerned with something that is hard to articulate very meditational experience
articulate very meditational experience which is all like shoved that basically
which is all like shoved that basically in some sense
in some sense well shoved uh in directing you to it's
well shoved uh in directing you to it's important and maybe how it's to be
important and maybe how it's to be understood but and i don't know in Burma
understood but and i don't know in Burma pata those maja watches seem to be
pata those maja watches seem to be really super special right I will tell
really super special right I will tell you my my my own understanding and like
you my my my own understanding and like learning Yaya has really helped me when
learning Yaya has really helped me when I was a lawyer when I practiced as a
I was a lawyer when I practiced as a yeah I mean a recovering lawyer the but
yeah I mean a recovering lawyer the but it was it's really interesting like when
it was it's really interesting like when you look at things like the rules of
you look at things like the rules of evidence that these states federal
evidence that these states federal government put out there's so many so
government put out there's so many so many areas where
many areas where as covers so much of this especially
as covers so much of this especially when it comes to like testimony right
when it comes to like testimony right most of everything that happens in court
most of everything that happens in court is testimony so niya has this entire
is testimony so niya has this entire breakdown of what qualifies as good
breakdown of what qualifies as good testimony how you should understand it
testimony how you should understand it and even in the modern sense I feel like
and even in the modern sense I feel like like even legal theories now about
like even legal theories now about testimony are not nearly as strong as
testimony are not nearly as strong as the ayya ayya has a much stronger basis
the ayya ayya has a much stronger basis of what would qualify as an authority or
of what would qualify as an authority or testimony that should be accepted right
testimony that should be accepted right yeah and the basic idea in with
yeah and the basic idea in with testimony is is that is innocent until
testimony is is that is innocent until reasonably challenged in fact they say
reasonably challenged in fact they say it's the idea that when somebody unless
it's the idea that when somebody unless you know something that undercuts a
you know something that undercuts a person's testimony it's it's unlike the
person's testimony it's it's unlike the mainstream attitude and Western Fawcett
mainstream attitude and Western Fawcett testimony that you have to you first you
testimony that you have to you first you understand it and then on the basis of
understand it and then on the basis of other evidence you accept it or not
other evidence you accept it or not right the basic attitude of naya is its
right the basic attitude of naya is its natural to accept what people tell you
natural to accept what people tell you right so what they're really interested
right so what they're really interested in is when you learn that it's wrong or
in is when you learn that it's wrong or how you learned is wrong and so the
how you learned is wrong and so the fallacies of testimony and the fallacies
fallacies of testimony and the fallacies of reasoning right from the gaya Sutra
of reasoning right from the gaya Sutra are they have like ways people go wrong
are they have like ways people go wrong and so that tradition there's a there's
and so that tradition there's a there's a philosopher named Anand of idea and I
a philosopher named Anand of idea and I think he's at university California it's
think he's at university California it's cool he's really on a crusade to get
cool he's really on a crusade to get this rich tradition of epistemically
this rich tradition of epistemically ders you know so the idea is you get
ders you know so the idea is you get information you get fresh news you live
information you get fresh news you live you you live by that right people tell
you you live by that right people tell you something but then you you
you something but then you you you find out that it's a liar who's been
you find out that it's a liar who's been telling then you don't believe it
telling then you don't believe it anymore or you find out that there's
anymore or you find out that there's this mistake made in the logic then you
this mistake made in the logic then you don't believe it anymore
don't believe it anymore so that tradition of fallacies and sorry
so that tradition of fallacies and sorry we start with something good it's not
we start with something good it's not it's not this Universal skepticism we'll
it's not this Universal skepticism we'll start with a presumptive attitude of
start with a presumptive attitude of knowledge that it's something good
knowledge that it's something good we've got information right it can be
we've got information right it can be undercut and you've give it up and
undercut and you've give it up and you're I think you're you're really
you're I think you're you're really right in this right like we start even
right in this right like we start even even as young kid we start with our if
even as young kid we start with our if our parents tell us this your father
our parents tell us this your father this your mother you take it as yeah
this your mother you take it as yeah that's true would take a lot to
that's true would take a lot to overthrow that right right or anything
overthrow that right right or anything about the world anything anyone tells us
about the world anything anyone tells us about the world don't put your head to
about the world don't put your head to the fire you'll get burnt well I take
the fire you'll get burnt well I take that as true I might not never
that as true I might not never experienced it I've never had someone
experienced it I've never had someone like you know shoot me with the gun and
like you know shoot me with the gun and let they tell me hey it's painful and
let they tell me hey it's painful and you don't want to get shot I'm like I'll
you don't want to get shot I'm like I'll take it as true just entire world that
take it as true just entire world that we build is big based through the
we build is big based through the untested mone right because there's so
untested mone right because there's so much we don't trust full attitude is
much we don't trust full attitude is natural to us right so now I once had a
natural to us right so now I once had a student when I was telling this tell me
student when I was telling this tell me well that was maybe true maybe in
well that was maybe true maybe in classical Indian times but an hour an
classical Indian times but an hour an hour just so much information a BS out
hour just so much information a BS out there that maybe we can't know well I
there that maybe we can't know well I mean but it doesn't make you pause to
mean but it doesn't make you pause to summon sympathy that the tools in the
summon sympathy that the tools in the ayah give you like you know this should
ayah give you like you know this should be truthful I'm not trying to save you
be truthful I'm not trying to save you so like that requires some little
so like that requires some little research and then you can determine if
research and then you can determine if that like for example right on and also
that like for example right on and also in in philosophy we're always looking at
in in philosophy we're always looking at inferences right that's how we proceed
inferences right that's how we proceed and evaluating inferences and checking
and evaluating inferences and checking for fallacies is how Maya looks at the
for fallacies is how Maya looks at the business of philosophy right that's
business of philosophy right that's taken over for front with the other
taken over for front with the other school is this just the you know the son
school is this just the you know the son matter becomes a different right it
matter becomes a different right it becomes you know how do we understand
becomes you know how do we understand these injunctions to do various rituals
these injunctions to do various rituals or how do we understand these
or how do we understand these injunctions the meditator etc etc and I
injunctions the meditator etc etc and I don't know
don't know so in a way Yaya is a kind of baseline
so in a way Yaya is a kind of baseline training in an argument that write up
training in an argument that write up rules then use in different ways
rules then use in different ways including they doctor write three though
including they doctor write three though it's they don't is so brother you know
it's they don't is so brother you know there are exceptions and say true Harsha
there are exceptions and say true Harsha that we were talking about earlier
that we were talking about earlier he sort of turns it all against yeah I'm
he sort of turns it all against yeah I'm good at it he's better than the nya can
good at it he's better than the nya can so he ends up I don't know well I mean
so he ends up I don't know well I mean she here she was before gunky sure right
she here she was before gunky sure right so good is you know wrote prop and
so good is you know wrote prop and because funerals between Medina and - I
because funerals between Medina and - I believe so he I mean done gay should
believe so he I mean done gay should probably lose once I bet I've been told
probably lose once I bet I've been told I taken our authority that Sri Harsha
I taken our authority that Sri Harsha became a kind of standard text with and
became a kind of standard text with and then I as schools that the tolls
then I as schools that the tolls and this I know is true gun geishas son
and this I know is true gun geishas son Varga mana wrote a commentary on Sri has
Varga mana wrote a commentary on Sri has come in a cantata
come in a cantata Wow so he took it very seriously HP I'm
Wow so he took it very seriously HP I'm sure it is mentioned like in geisha yeah
sure it is mentioned like in geisha yeah and he he tries to refute his reputation
and he he tries to refute his reputation of her diet and he does it but in a very
of her diet and he does it but in a very interesting way in a pragmatic
interesting way in a pragmatic pragmatically he said you know you three
pragmatically he said you know you three harsher presents all this our standard
harsher presents all this our standard skepticism about V opt e natural
skepticism about V opt e natural privations
privations entailment natural entailments and
entailment natural entailments and underpin inference like where there's
underpin inference like where there's smoke there's fire
smoke there's fire and and and and and and negation of
and and and and and and negation of response he says ok the skeptic who
response he says ok the skeptic who wants to question well you haven't
wants to question well you haven't seen all instances of smoke and you
seen all instances of smoke and you haven't seen all instance of fire you
haven't seen all instance of fire you don't you can't be sure you know what
don't you can't be sure you know what iron you they say everything that's
iron you they say everything that's earthen is scratch Abul by iron but hey
earthen is scratch Abul by iron but hey you know then they discovered diamonds
you know then they discovered diamonds it's not really scratch above my iron
it's not really scratch above my iron so you can't make these generalizations
so you can't make these generalizations so sridhara and then and then gun geisha
so sridhara and then and then gun geisha come back any and he says well okay us
come back any and he says well okay us watch the skeptics behavior
watch the skeptics behavior notice that when he wants to just to get
notice that when he wants to just to get smoke to get rid of mosquitoes he starts
smoke to get rid of mosquitoes he starts a fire right when he speaks to review
a fire right when he speaks to review this opponent he assumes that speaking
this opponent he assumes that speaking is understood right yeah and and and so
is understood right yeah and and and so on so it's how he has this kind of
on so it's how he has this kind of pragmatic refutation of sridhara say
pragmatic refutation of sridhara say look we just used these assumptions of
look we just used these assumptions of in natural entailments in our everyday
in natural entailments in our everyday life right we could be wrong
life right we could be wrong we're not saying that we're infallible
we're not saying that we're infallible we do learn we could but again we have
we do learn we could but again we have the right to believe that wherever
the right to believe that wherever there's smoke there's fire
there's smoke there's fire until we find a smokeless fire right
until we find a smokeless fire right right it's really fascinating stuff it's
right it's really fascinating stuff it's to me I just find it really interesting
to me I just find it really interesting how these these people thought and they
how these these people thought and they thought deeply on on real everyday
thought deeply on on real everyday experiences because it mattered to them
experiences because it mattered to them as to how we're engaging with the world
as to how we're engaging with the world in some sense that's right exactly yeah
in some sense that's right exactly yeah indeed and I think it's it's really
indeed and I think it's it's really interesting it just especially like the
interesting it just especially like the the seven step syllogism that you know
the seven step syllogism that you know like in the traditional Indian sense
like in the traditional Indian sense like they have to point out the
like they have to point out the countervailing point right unlike the
countervailing point right unlike the kid like to the kitchen unlike the
kid like to the kitchen unlike the unlike the real eight right it's always
unlike the real eight right it's always it is why the mind that had to think
it is why the mind that had to think about that as opposed to the three step
about that as opposed to the three step is kind of interesting to me yeah and
is kind of interesting to me yeah and also yeah being very close intention to
also yeah being very close intention to inductive evidence right right way that
inductive evidence right right way that we find in nature so do you have a sense
we find in nature so do you have a sense of why deduction wasn't as big of a well
of why deduction wasn't as big of a well I think there is deduction I think the
I think there is deduction I think the standard syllogism you know the standard
standard syllogism you know the standard argument right
argument right so it's it's inductive it has an
so it's it's inductive it has an inductive side to it right it integrates
inductive side to it right it integrates induction end but that it's hardest
induction end but that it's hardest deductive like you know wherever smoke
deductive like you know wherever smoke their father you have that universally
their father you have that universally quantified expression wherever s there F
quantified expression wherever s there F a that mountain is s therefore it is F
a that mountain is s therefore it is F that's deductive right that said
that's deductive right that said straight now in in the West logic
straight now in in the West logic logical form is abstracted away from
logical form is abstracted away from knowledge and so that you can have a
knowledge and so that you can have a valid argument right with premises that
valid argument right with premises that are not only false but that you know
are not only false but that you know that are false like all men are good
that are false like all men are good right you that's right I need to follow
right you that's right I need to follow out the implication so they have that
out the implication so they have that notion in classical India but that's not
notion in classical India but that's not what they're ultimately interested in
what they're ultimately interested in they're interested in and knowledge in
they're interested in and knowledge in because knowledge helps us get along in
because knowledge helps us get along in the world right well when we have
the world right well when we have successful action it's guided by
successful action it's guided by knowledge so we're interested in logic
knowledge so we're interested in logic and deduction as serving the acquisition
and deduction as serving the acquisition of knowledge so that it was not
of knowledge so that it was not obstructed certain watch it was not
obstructed certain watch it was not obstructed but it's embedded in the
obstructed but it's embedded in the syllogism or whatever you want to call
syllogism or whatever you want to call that so in this sense we quite knowledge
that so in this sense we quite knowledge and truth together or without yeah sure
and truth together or without yeah sure that you know you don't have knowledge
that you know you don't have knowledge of it's not true right they do a motion
of it's not true right they do a motion and you know they worry about the nature
and you know they worry about the nature of truth there's sort of have a
of truth there's sort of have a correspondence theory you know this gets
correspondence theory you know this gets in to some really tough issues about
in to some really tough issues about qualification of the you know we were
qualification of the you know we were talking about earlier
properties of property bears right on and they think that a statement
perceptual statement one known by testimony inference will minimally they
testimony inference will minimally they have something as qualified by a
have something as qualified by a qualifier right so even a one word
qualifier right so even a one word statement like cow is really elliptical
statement like cow is really elliptical for something like there is a cow right
for something like there is a cow right about that and so which is elliptical
about that and so which is elliptical for that thing was individual by the
for that thing was individual by the property being a cow cow and so that's
property being a cow cow and so that's what it is to be true so you know
what it is to be true so you know there's a lot of fighting about this and
there's a lot of fighting about this and this way you might want to you I don't
this way you might want to you I don't know I just take this for granting I
know I just take this for granting I must say but the Buddhists don't they
must say but the Buddhists don't they have a pragmatic theory of truth right
have a pragmatic theory of truth right which truth gonna kind of takes modern
which truth gonna kind of takes modern people you know there's a lot of talk
people you know there's a lot of talk about truth and so on you know were
about truth and so on you know were these perspectival ism and so on and I
these perspectival ism and so on and I don't know I I don't know what to write
don't know I I don't know what to write I just sort of okay maybe this
I just sort of okay maybe this qualification its basic Tenaya
qualification its basic Tenaya underlying all information exchange even
underlying all information exchange even you know information originating in
you know information originating in sense experience all you know knowledge
sense experience all you know knowledge is verbalize able their viewing so and
is verbalize able their viewing so and whenever you say anything you're always
whenever you say anything you're always going to say something about something
going to say something about something as having certain properties so through
as having certain properties so through the so so I I don't know I mean that's
the so so I I don't know I mean that's just Tooting for me I mean I know that
just Tooting for me I mean I know that there are you know these anti-realists
there are you know these anti-realists and so on and even through harsh attacks
and so on and even through harsh attacks that it's I don't know that that's a
that it's I don't know that that's a really deep issue right so just one more
really deep issue right so just one more question on on
question on on on yaaaa and then we'll go to the yoga
on yaaaa and then we'll go to the yoga book so in yoga there's this idea of
book so in yoga there's this idea of vitiation yet right the object code or
vitiation yet right the object code or universal object correct
universal object correct how would that is that any way shape or
how would that is that any way shape or form connected to pun intended the
form connected to pun intended the theory of forms in the Platonic theory
theory of forms in the Platonic theory of forms another Universal in the sense
of forms another Universal in the sense that Plato recognized that certain
that Plato recognized that certain things that we say about things
things that we say about things repeat wait I mean there's certain
repeat wait I mean there's certain arguments that get us to universals you
arguments that get us to universals you know this is red that's red that other
know this is red that's red that other thing is red or here's a human being
thing is red or here's a human being there's a we use that same idea a human
there's a we use that same idea a human being you know for all these different
being you know for all these different things all these different individuals
things all these different individuals and you know they're they're spread out
and you know they're they're spread out they're not you know they're not
they're not you know they're not connected like a body of water or
connected like a body of water or something like that there's there's
something like that there's there's spread out and so what is it so yeah
spread out and so what is it so yeah there seems to be something some sort of
there seems to be something some sort of property human being hood that is
property human being hood that is present in all these individual
present in all these individual instances no you know some people want
instances no you know some people want to say that that theory of universals
to say that that theory of universals comes into India through Alexander's
comes into India through Alexander's invasion of the Punjab I don't think he
invasion of the Punjab I don't think he got to all the way he got close to the
got to all the way he got close to the Indus or something because you know
Indus or something because you know Aristotle they knew all the you know
Aristotle they knew all the you know Universalist a hot topic right are this
Universalist a hot topic right are this repeatable properties and you know I
repeatable properties and you know I don't know universals of universal I
don't know universals of universal I just don't really think so I just think
just don't really think so I just think that that's such a common feature of
that that's such a common feature of language right you know repeatability of
language right you know repeatability of properties you know that it just
properties you know that it just naturally emerges in Maya I know the
naturally emerges in Maya I know the Buddhists attack if they say all those
Buddhists attack if they say all those beautiful properties they're just mind
beautiful properties they're just mind constructed that sort of and and and and
constructed that sort of and and and and then you get the my mom's because won't
then you get the my mom's because won't you know we think the Veda is eternal
you know we think the Veda is eternal and timeless and its ideas reverberates
and timeless and its ideas reverberates or timelessly and Akasha so they they
or timelessly and Akasha so they they gotta have some sort of enduring
gotta have some sort of enduring entities that words hook up to brain
entities that words hook up to brain universals there's various motivations
universals there's various motivations III don't know some of the motivations
III don't know some of the motivations in the in the Greek tradition for
in the in the Greek tradition for universals and forms seem to be the same
universals and forms seem to be the same I don't really think there was much
I don't really think there was much influence okay okay I just I just think
influence okay okay I just I just think it's a linguistic mainly a lingual I
it's a linguistic mainly a lingual I don't know it's not just linguistic
don't know it's not just linguistic because gosh I I'm looking out and I'm
because gosh I I'm looking out and I'm seeing a tree and I know it's like that
seeing a tree and I know it's like that other tree brain isn't there tree hood
other tree brain isn't there tree hood great right great there's a common
great right great there's a common characteristic there right it's not just
characteristic there right it's not just linguistic it it's also perceptual right
linguistic it it's also perceptual right no until I agree I agree why do we have
no until I agree I agree why do we have to have Aristotle's minions coming to
to have Aristotle's minions coming to India telling us about universals I I
India telling us about universals I I don't think so yeah it's sort of
don't think so yeah it's sort of naturally arising philosophical topic
naturally arising philosophical topic look I don't know I'm not a great
look I don't know I'm not a great historian of the I mean a lot of people
historian of the I mean a lot of people spend a lot of time worrying about India
spend a lot of time worrying about India and Greece yeah there's been quite a bit
and Greece yeah there's been quite a bit of work written on you care more about
of work written on you care more about the ideas than about where they came
the ideas than about where they came from necessarily that's I guess I just
from necessarily that's I guess I just have I just sort of think you know human
have I just sort of think you know human beings
beings it's our commonality as human beings
it's our commonality as human beings were going to arrive at or a common
were going to arrive at or a common philosophic conceptions right so now
philosophic conceptions right so now jumping on to yoga book which I thought
jumping on to yoga book which I thought was actually really really interesting
was actually really really interesting about saying you you cover to be honest
about saying you you cover to be honest to hold gamut of different topics
to hold gamut of different topics they're all connected but they're not
they're all connected but they're not very deep and and and
interesting I mean to be honest the entire like what made you want to write
entire like what made you want to write this and is it connected to any sort of
this and is it connected to any sort of practice you were doing like yoga and
practice you were doing like yoga and before I became a professional Sanskrit
before I became a professional Sanskrit a stem philosopher I didn't go to the
a stem philosopher I didn't go to the urban washroom and you know and you know
urban washroom and you know and you know even began learning a few asanas and I
even began learning a few asanas and I know I mean in the end I from the asanas
know I mean in the end I from the asanas a big part of it yeah
a big part of it yeah or Karma Yoga than anything but also a
or Karma Yoga than anything but also a lot of meditation and I don't know I
lot of meditation and I don't know I never lost that did you get into the
never lost that did you get into the asana practice excuse me
asana practice excuse me did you get into like the asana practice
did you get into like the asana practice that we are really happy in the 90s to
that we are really happy in the 90s to see the movement of asanas I sort of
see the movement of asanas I sort of thought gosh when I was a graduate I
thought gosh when I was a graduate I sort of thought that maybe there would
sort of thought that maybe there would be inroads into Western culture more
be inroads into Western culture more from the top down you know from these
from the top down you know from these great philosophic systems right
great philosophic systems right they danta and Upanishads the Gita in
they danta and Upanishads the Gita in the ayah and so on but then when I heard
the ayah and so on but then when I heard from below
from below popular culture and I thought that
popular culture and I thought that that's great because for one thing there
that's great because for one thing there were all these yoga teachers who want to
were all these yoga teachers who want to be to tell them how to pronounce his
be to tell them how to pronounce his [Laughter]
[Laughter] lessons and I really and I stopped I
lessons and I really and I stopped I stopped correcting yoga teachers though
stopped correcting yoga teachers though because it's really obnoxious right well
because it's really obnoxious right well they would say namaste
they would say namaste that's really why I'm a I made him say
that's really why I'm a I made him say namaste namaste that was the one I you
namaste namaste that was the one I you know but there was some but there was
know but there was some but there was really this sort of new interest and you
really this sort of new interest and you know just to be honest teaching
know just to be honest teaching undergraduates at the University of
undergraduates at the University of Texas was during big school 30,000
Texas was during big school 30,000 students
students I don't know 37,000
I don't know 37,000 graduates there's interest in yoga and I
graduates there's interest in yoga and I was a way of sort of teaching a lot of
was a way of sort of teaching a lot of things you know philosophy and history
things you know philosophy and history of Indian civilization so I'd serve all
of Indian civilization so I'd serve all practically that book came out of my
practically that book came out of my teaching a semester long yoga philosophy
teaching a semester long yoga philosophy of yoga class right no because like like
of yoga class right no because like like for example in your first chapter you
for example in your first chapter you you you spend a lot of time going
you you spend a lot of time going through yoga like as I asana practice
through yoga like as I asana practice and you talk besa lure people and I'm
and you talk besa lure people and I'm sorry
sorry there was a reviewer from Norway
there was a reviewer from Norway something said hey this is a really good
something said hey this is a really good book but first chapter is just terrible
[Laughter] to get the yoga teachers interested that
to get the yoga teachers interested that I wasn't just because it's funny because
I wasn't just because it's funny because I think there is a connection know those
I think there is a connection know those yoga those yoga asanas and so on they
yoga those yoga asanas and so on they those yoga teachers they may not know
those yoga teachers they may not know very much but they are many many more
very much but they are many many more really sincere teachers 100% and and you
really sincere teachers 100% and and you know they want more body awareness and
know they want more body awareness and you know they want a practice partner so
you know they want a practice partner so I you know there's some people there's
I you know there's some people there's some academics that are specialists in
some academics that are specialists in yoga and hundred traditions right I can
yoga and hundred traditions right I can name some names who really scoff at this
name some names who really scoff at this popular yoga movement sure really phony
popular yoga movement sure really phony and so on but I don't know I tend to be
and so on but I don't know I tend to be anonymous because I mean like I know
anonymous because I mean like I know people that are hardcore into the yoga
people that are hardcore into the yoga practice of you know I strongly okay
practice of you know I strongly okay whatever the awesome stuff and there and
whatever the awesome stuff and there and there's seeds in there where you
there's seeds in there where you described like for example a certain
described like for example a certain pose and you're you open up the bunda
pose and you're you open up the bunda and this they had this experience that's
and this they had this experience that's how they would talk constantly so I just
how they would talk constantly so I just I was like oh you must have been like a
I was like oh you must have been like a hardcore like asana
hardcore like asana you kind of got all those like those
you kind of got all those like those beats exactly right so I guess those are
beats exactly right so I guess those are very interesting the Bundys and and I
very interesting the Bundys and and I tell you at first when I learned about
tell you at first when I learned about ashtanga yoga which you know is really
ashtanga yoga which you know is really hard physical practice right a lot of
hard physical practice right a lot of jumping around and you know but Debbie
jumping around and you know but Debbie Joyce yeah yeah I was I said this is
Joyce yeah yeah I was I said this is terrible that they call it ashtanga yoga
terrible that they call it ashtanga yoga because I started yoga strum the Yoga
because I started yoga strum the Yoga Sutras neom is awesome our body and you
Sutras neom is awesome our body and you know come on and the yoga's our ahimsa
know come on and the yoga's our ahimsa brain one such AI mean ahimsa this is
brain one such AI mean ahimsa this is all of ethics is in am saw just about
all of ethics is in am saw just about right frame I mean it is but then but
right frame I mean it is but then but then so how can you call it a stun it's
then so how can you call it a stun it's just this just this athletic practice
just this just this athletic practice right jumping around I mean where
right jumping around I mean where where's the da da da
where's the da da da right where's all this other stuff but
right where's all this other stuff but then later you know after you know
then later you know after you know becoming a little more mature about it I
becoming a little more mature about it I realized that all these are stronger
realized that all these are stronger yoga teachers they became interested in
yoga teachers they became interested in the Yama's and the nietzermann's and so
the Yama's and the nietzermann's and so on they weren't just interested in us
on they weren't just interested in us and it was really wonderful that they
and it was really wonderful that they called it ashtanga yoga because they
called it ashtanga yoga because they wanted to know about the tradition of
wanted to know about the tradition of the mental discipline mantid Swati aya
the mental discipline mantid Swati aya thesaurus so on and they became
thesaurus so on and they became interested in the yoga Sutra and so on
interested in the yoga Sutra and so on and so forth and other the bhagavad-gita
and so forth and other the bhagavad-gita and other yogic text I mean this is I
and other yogic text I mean this is I think it's wonderful
think it's wonderful no and you're right because like it's
no and you're right because like it's interesting because obviously what that
interesting because obviously what that B Joyce was he came from Lyon
B Joyce was he came from Lyon Krishnamachari and Christian you had
Krishnamachari and Christian you had that sense of of the yogic tradition the
that sense of of the yogic tradition the bug and he thought all that stuff right
bug and he thought all that stuff right because you know even a bks iyengar he
because you know even a bks iyengar he know he read the book eaten he wrote a
know he read the book eaten he wrote a commentary on the yoga suit there's two
commentary on the yoga suit there's two but you know the one it was it's
but you know the one it was it's interesting because you brought up a
interesting because you brought up a point a your conversation about Samadhi
point a your conversation about Samadhi and it's actually because when I read
and it's actually because when I read the other surfers a couple decades ago
the other surfers a couple decades ago and I haven't really come back to that
and I haven't really come back to that much but I was talking to my friend who
much but I was talking to my friend who is a practitioner from her and I would
is a practitioner from her and I would he'd be like I want to have Sidney's and
he'd be like I want to have Sidney's and I want to practice for City I'm like and
I want to practice for City I'm like and my response is no that's a that's a
my response is no that's a that's a divergence away from Samadhi but the way
divergence away from Samadhi but the way you have the conversation and over time
you have the conversation and over time well I think there's something wrong in
well I think there's something wrong in the yoga Sutra but but I actually think
the yoga Sutra but but I actually think like you're right in the sense where as
like you're right in the sense where as I read more and more of other yoga
I read more and more of other yoga traditions and even things like
traditions and even things like Mahabharata and they all talk about yoga
Mahabharata and they all talk about yoga but in different senses that even the
but in different senses that even the sense of having these cities sit like
sense of having these cities sit like you very clearly enunciated a Samadhi is
you very clearly enunciated a Samadhi is itself a sort of Sydney yes which is
itself a sort of Sydney yes which is really fascinating so it seems to me
really fascinating so it seems to me that what's happening I think as yoga
that what's happening I think as yoga Sutra 3:37 where Patanjali says you know
Sutra 3:37 where Patanjali says you know these are cities to the ordinary person
these are cities to the ordinary person but they are obstacles to the final
but they are obstacles to the final liberation or something like that right
liberation or something like that right here it seems to me that they're
here it seems to me that they're unfortunately he's thinking top down
unfortunately he's thinking top down from the sake of metaphysics of the
from the sake of metaphysics of the dualism of Persian property as opposed
dualism of Persian property as opposed to bottom up from the practices and you
to bottom up from the practices and you know and I you know I'm sorry I don't
know and I you know I'm sorry I don't think Patanjali is infallible I think
think Patanjali is infallible I think he's a great yogi and so on but I think
he's a great yogi and so on but I think that some of the ideas are flawed is you
that some of the ideas are flawed is you know he uses he uses the metaphysics
know he uses he uses the metaphysics that was available to him I don't think
that was available to him I don't think he was particularly well trained as a as
he was particularly well trained as a as a metaphysician and so how is it that he
a metaphysician and so how is it that he has the whole third book of the yoga
has the whole third book of the yoga Sutra and many other even a lot of the
Sutra and many other even a lot of the second book all about cindy's and and
second book all about cindy's and and what what what comes about from a
what what what comes about from a practicing about him so you know enmity
practicing about him so you know enmity and you get a kind of
and you get a kind of right like say sure let's see where the
right like say sure let's see where the person on his shoulder you know I mean I
person on his shoulder you know I mean I don't know my wife's a little bit like
don't know my wife's a little bit like that I mean animals she has a certain
that I mean animals she has a certain vibe about her she's such a him Sokka
vibe about her she's such a him Sokka that you know that that animals are not
that you know that that animals are not frightened around her so what seems to
frightened around her so what seems to me a kind of city and so so that the
me a kind of city and so so that the idea of sort of your denigrating the
idea of sort of your denigrating the cities which is sort of the official
cities which is sort of the official metaphysical position seems to me not to
metaphysical position seems to me not to square with with the actual practices of
square with with the actual practices of yoga where you're always in developing
yoga where you're always in developing these special talents of consciousness
these special talents of consciousness so so can I throw a wrench into the mix
so so can I throw a wrench into the mix because I was thinking about it right
because I was thinking about it right coming from obviously this might be a
coming from obviously this might be a chronologically probably incorrect
chronologically probably incorrect position to take but I was thinking
position to take but I was thinking about it I'm like so we look at the Yoga
about it I'm like so we look at the Yoga Sutras and this particular admonishment
Sutras and this particular admonishment of going towards the city path versus
of going towards the city path versus some other path and then I was thinking
some other path and then I was thinking well a lot of mythological stories that
well a lot of mythological stories that were told have all these these beings go
were told have all these these beings go down the path of getting some sort of
down the path of getting some sort of Sydney via visa the yogic practice right
Sydney via visa the yogic practice right and then when they go down that path to
and then when they go down that path to get the city they get caught up in that
get the city they get caught up in that particular city and then lose the sense
particular city and then lose the sense of the the oneness and they go out and
of the the oneness and they go out and do something evil or terrible whatever
do something evil or terrible whatever even Ravana even revenant right so I was
even Ravana even revenant right so I was just thinking maybe that is more what
just thinking maybe that is more what he's in for that okay so I yeah that's
he's in for that okay so I yeah that's good that's a good that's a good
good that's a good that's a good correction to what I said that's true I
correction to what I said that's true I like that it could yeah yeah sure sure
like that it could yeah yeah sure sure Lee you I don't know yeah yeah yeah you
Lee you I don't know yeah yeah yeah you get a you get a particular I don't know
get a you get a particular I don't know City I don't know
City I don't know dazzling people with something or other
dazzling people with something or other I don't know finding Randall something
I don't know finding Randall something and you know you you don't know you just
and you know you you don't know you just spend your life entertaining people that
spend your life entertaining people that way because and that's what I mean
way because and that's what I mean because I also think about it like
because I also think about it like because I don't think potential
because I don't think potential necessary has
necessary has the Jeeva Samadhi in his system right
the Jeeva Samadhi in his system right you have to at some point get rid of the
you have to at some point get rid of the body
body for that sense it's sort of like I'm not
for that sense it's sort of like I'm not so sure about that he does say yeah that
so sure about that he does say yeah that clinging to life yeah and there's such a
clinging to life yeah and there's such a dualism of Purusha and prakriti great
dualism of Purusha and prakriti great friendship that yeah you're probably
friendship that yeah you're probably right but act and even on your book the
right but act and even on your book the one things I actually really truly
one things I actually really truly enjoyed was your you're kind of
elucidation and kind of development of the ideas of some cicadas the asanas the
the ideas of some cicadas the asanas the me vaasanas' rebirth it was really
me vaasanas' rebirth it was really awesome to see in that format because it
awesome to see in that format because it came out very easily people get really
came out very easily people get really caught up in what these things mean and
caught up in what these things mean and how they play out and the way you
how they play out and the way you described it actually in the book was
described it actually in the book was very easy to understand I thought was
very easy to understand I thought was very illuminating for people that want
very illuminating for people that want to don't want to delve into instead of
to don't want to delve into instead of the just you know the past comic-con
the just you know the past comic-con mothers oh do this to get cut my it's a
mothers oh do this to get cut my it's a lot more intricate and thought out of a
lot more intricate and thought out of a system then people give it credit for
system then people give it credit for and or even try to think about it right
and or even try to think about it right like like one of the things that's I
like like one of the things that's I always especially and I'll put in the
always especially and I'll put in the modern context when we talk about things
modern context when we talk about things like transgendered and things of that
like transgendered and things of that nature I find it the more I think about
nature I find it the more I think about it in terms of some scada the more I
it in terms of some scada the more I feel connected to these people to say
feel connected to these people to say just be who you are because this is what
just be who you are because this is what your your vaasanas' your son Skoda's
your your vaasanas' your son Skoda's we're connected to right it's in some
we're connected to right it's in some ways it can it can be negative for
ways it can it can be negative for people that sometimes people treat other
people that sometimes people treat other people like that's your fault your issue
people like that's your fault your issue you handle it as opposed to saying this
you handle it as opposed to saying this is your cut ma playing out let's play it
is your cut ma playing out let's play it out together
out together let's support whatever's going going on
let's support whatever's going going on in the world I don't know that's just a
in the world I don't know that's just a perspective you know I think I got that
perspective you know I think I got that I think I got that idea from Sri
I think I got that idea from Sri Aurobindo who like some other Neel
Aurobindo who like some other Neel Vedanta n--'s
Vedanta n--'s I think this may be a and ton tricks
I think this may be a and ton tricks yeah
yeah but also in good
but also in good some that the bodhisattva tradition and
some that the bodhisattva tradition and this is this is my big wind-up for the
this is this is my big wind-up for the and here's the the the pitch is that
and here's the the the pitch is that rebirth is not a bad thing
rebirth is not a bad thing you know sort of the standard mainstream
you know sort of the standard mainstream line in all the yoga influenced
line in all the yoga influenced traditions is you want freedom from
traditions is you want freedom from reincarnation but in the bodhisattva
reincarnation but in the bodhisattva tradition of buddhism and I think it's
tradition of buddhism and I think it's an orb in no it's in some Tantra and
an orb in no it's in some Tantra and it's kind of implicit in the gita also
it's kind of implicit in the gita also we're in Chapter six we could talk about
we're in Chapter six we could talk about that
that the idea that you are developing a
unique personhood over a course of many lifetimes you call it filmmaking yeah so
lifetimes you call it filmmaking yeah so making yes so yeah and I don't know I
making yes so yeah and I don't know I really like that idea
really like that idea no I think it's I think it's a great
no I think it's I think it's a great idea because it's funny because growing
idea because it's funny because growing up one of the things my father you know
up one of the things my father you know would teach me and we belong to the
would teach me and we belong to the Shiva of my tradition Vedic tradition
Shiva of my tradition Vedic tradition and he'd be like once you have mob say
and he'd be like once you have mob say come in
come in coming in and out of the world as you
coming in and out of the world as you please and engage in rebirth but you're
please and engage in rebirth but you're not connected to the world in the same
not connected to the world in the same way because you see it holistically as a
way because you see it holistically as a body of God and then rebirth no longer
body of God and then rebirth no longer no longer appears to be suffering it is
no longer appears to be suffering it is playing in the field that you know the
playing in the field that you know the the dance the vibrations of the you know
the dance the vibrations of the you know yeah the divine dancer right but I mean
yeah the divine dancer right but I mean but even the idea of soul making I find
but even the idea of soul making I find it to be and this was actually when I
it to be and this was actually when I was young a stronger argument I would
was young a stronger argument I would have against the concept of a god that's
have against the concept of a god that's one and done versus God that says I care
one and done versus God that says I care and love you so much all the chances
and love you so much all the chances mission is right there I mean and all
mission is right there I mean and all the goddesses right to help you in your
the goddesses right to help you in your development it's not just to get out of
development it's not just to get out of it wouldn't make sense right I mean what
it wouldn't make sense right I mean what why go through the whole thing of is
why go through the whole thing of is just to escape okay it's so much of the
just to escape okay it's so much of the the Buffy literature ends up being
the Buffy literature ends up being people saying I don't even want moksha I
people saying I don't even want moksha I just want to go bored again and again
just want to go bored again and again even baby cannot business yeah yeah he's
even baby cannot business yeah yeah he's in the chunker a tradition right he says
in the chunker a tradition right he says I don't want I don't want Mukti yeah I
I don't want I don't want Mukti yeah I want to be reborn so I can worship the
want to be reborn so I can worship the Lord in all the various forms right but
Lord in all the various forms right but it but but I thought like the way you
it but but I thought like the way you laid it out the entire soul making idea
laid it out the entire soul making idea what's really amazingly well done
what's really amazingly well done especially could you connect it to each
especially could you connect it to each of your the yogic sense that kind of
of your the yogic sense that kind of makes sense their rebirth sense all that
makes sense their rebirth sense all that is till I get that mainly firm sure even
is till I get that mainly firm sure even though because you know it is in the
though because you know it is in the Western tradition but in the in the West
Western tradition but in the in the West you know kind of like purgatory or the
you know kind of like purgatory or the the Catholics had the purgatory yeah
the Catholics had the purgatory yeah yeah but they have it what's so it's so
yeah but they have it what's so it's so much better about the Indian tradition
much better about the Indian tradition is it's here earth
is it's here earth no it's not in some other it's not some
no it's not in some other it's not some somewhere else some heaven some that's
somewhere else some heaven some that's disconnected the circle earth is I think
disconnected the circle earth is I think this has ecological significance right
this has ecological significance right because you know I think Christians can
because you know I think Christians can say you know to hell with the earth
say you know to hell with the earth right I mean you know we're gonna go off
right I mean you know we're gonna go off somewhere else anyway right it's just
somewhere else anyway right it's just some you know testing ground whereas in
some you know testing ground whereas in in a philosophy of rebirth you know
in a philosophy of rebirth you know you're interested in this world being a
you're interested in this world being a getting better because you're you're
getting better because you're you're gonna come back
gonna come back Bach say this is where I was even a
Bach say this is where I was even a little bit like Rawls's thought
little bit like Rawls's thought experiment about the foundations of
experiment about the foundations of justice right watch is fighting right
justice right watch is fighting right where you know hey you want the world
where you know hey you want the world set up where you don't know your places
set up where you don't know your places the veil of ignorance that's like a
the veil of ignorance that's like a rebirth you don't know it you're gonna
rebirth you don't know it you're gonna be reborn as a human to be continued
be reborn as a human to be continued your some scars and so are most likely
your some scars and so are most likely unless you're really an awful person
unless you're really an awful person like there's something that I think
like there's something that I think you're born as you know feral pig or
you're born as you know feral pig or something that people but but but but
something that people but but but but yes so yeah I really I really like that
yes so yeah I really I really like that aspect of the Odyssey yeah and the thing
aspect of the Odyssey yeah and the thing that I'm getting I got from your book
that I'm getting I got from your book and to be honest I think more and more
and to be honest I think more and more writers nowadays are having this
writers nowadays are having this position because before people their
position because before people their position was the Vedic philosophy who do
position was the Vedic philosophy who do some Buddhism a world denying all care
some Buddhism a world denying all care about moksha but the reality is like
about moksha but the reality is like when you get me to the heart of these
when you get me to the heart of these these texts and these stories and these
these texts and these stories and these dis traditions their world affirming but
dis traditions their world affirming but this involves very world of for me right
this involves very world of for me right the whole concept of that the reason you
the whole concept of that the reason you want to get out I'm not gonna do because
want to get out I'm not gonna do because the world is bad is because your mental
the world is bad is because your mental state in connection to the world is bad
state in connection to the world is bad right it's if it's the freeing up cause
right it's if it's the freeing up cause it could be yeah it could exactly it
it could be yeah it could exactly it could be better these things can be
could be better these things can be better once you have the right
better once you have the right perspective right I mean this is why the
perspective right I mean this is why the you know gonna keep that Christmas old
you know gonna keep that Christmas old point it's not to break the world of
point it's not to break the world of some of their Shannara see all beings as
some of their Shannara see all beings as one right and local some grown in the
one right and local some grown in the Buddhist concept is very similar about
Buddhist concept is very similar about copy what comes back again and again
copy what comes back again and again right with these perfect qualities that
right with these perfect qualities that are just you know built for helping
are just you know built for helping people right right and I think it's I'm
people right right and I think it's I'm really enjoying the movement now towards
really enjoying the movement now towards looking again at these these traditions
looking again at these these traditions and taxed as mean how do we world affirm
and taxed as mean how do we world affirm because really I think maybe central and
because really I think maybe central and this is I'll be never good because I
this is I'll be never good because I tell them what is maybe this is too much
tell them what is maybe this is too much influenced by process philosophy
influenced by process philosophy Whitehead my dad that the idea of the
Whitehead my dad that the idea of the world tree right tree beauty that that
world tree right tree beauty that that you know the it's a process of creating
you know the it's a process of creating beauty right and a process of our being
beauty right and a process of our being able
able preciate beauty which I don't know Tyson
preciate beauty which I don't know Tyson I don't know that there's an e only
I don't know that there's an e only dozen named he was a lacrosse never see
dozen named he was a lacrosse never see Emma - I'm sorry
Emma - I'm sorry maybe something my mind right now who
maybe something my mind right now who has a real good essay about beauty in at
has a real good essay about beauty in at vitae honor the course on me no not yeah
vitae honor the course on me no not yeah he's great too but I'm thinking of
he's great too but I'm thinking of somebody else
he was real it starts with an M I'm sorry never mind that's fine
sorry never mind that's fine in any case the idea is that the raison
in any case the idea is that the raison d'etre of the world right is is free is
d'etre of the world right is is free is the ongoing creep expression or creation
the ongoing creep expression or creation of beauty and the appreciation of yeah
of beauty and the appreciation of yeah and that's that's also lets me come
and that's that's also lets me come through right that comes out and lets
through right that comes out and lets you suck they're very strongly how the
you suck they're very strongly how the the per could be the nature the driving
the per could be the nature the driving force of all creation is Lakshmi nursery
force of all creation is Lakshmi nursery and this is why off I tend to love this
and this is why off I tend to love this she said that and the way I interpret it
she said that and the way I interpret it it's not necessarily the way I think
it's not necessarily the way I think most people do is if all this is truly
most people do is if all this is truly the body of God and this a shochet bhava
the body of God and this a shochet bhava right all this is amazing
right all this is amazing it's perfect it is it is a process right
it's perfect it is it is a process right there's a this is all God experiencing
there's a this is all God experiencing expressing himself or herself for him
expressing himself or herself for him and her and her self in the sense in the
and her and her self in the sense in the infinite ways so how can it not be good
infinite ways so how can it not be good how can I not why it's just you know hey
how can I not why it's just you know hey it's awesome yeah yeah don't hurt
it's awesome yeah yeah don't hurt anybody
anybody that's right you know
that's right you know have you it's you spend a lot of time
have you it's you spend a lot of time with the hips did you ever look at the
with the hips did you ever look at the concept in the Mahabharata near some
concept in the Mahabharata near some Shia and did you ever think about the
Shia and did you ever think about the cuz I mean Alf I forget how to say his
cuz I mean Alf I forget how to say his last name Hittle Biddle I don't yeah
last name Hittle Biddle I don't yeah yeah I always miss a blessing but he
yeah I always miss a blessing but he talks about those two and in conjunction
talks about those two and in conjunction with each other so I've always find it
with each other so I've always find it fascinating oh I see I read a book of
fascinating oh I see I read a book of his a long time ago he's pretty good he
his a long time ago he's pretty good he writes very well I'll hit the bottle
writes very well I'll hit the bottle yeah okay what's the idea the difference
yeah okay what's the idea the difference between a near some Shia within
between a near some Shia within Mahabharata which is non cruelty
Mahabharata which is non cruelty juxtaposed with a hint side which is
juxtaposed with a hint side which is non-violence like one of his arguments
non-violence like one of his arguments is that Mahabharata even though it talks
is that Mahabharata even though it talks about non-violence it's really more
about non-violence it's really more about non cruelty about how not to be
about non cruelty about how not to be cruel in the world and how even though I
cruel in the world and how even though I don't know the whole of the my daughter
don't know the whole of the my daughter took that well in but just the book of a
took that well in but just the book of a Gita where I know Krishna does talk
Gita where I know Krishna does talk about it him it does say him son you say
about it him it does say him son you say ah here it isn't war how can you produce
ah here it isn't war how can you produce an inside fight but it's sort of like a
an inside fight but it's sort of like a him son you are but no to me the rope in
him son you are but no to me the rope in India the contrast is between a kind of
India the contrast is between a kind of you know you go back and look at the
you know you go back and look at the China text on a himself right it's more
China text on a himself right it's more like don't hurt anybody
like don't hurt anybody don't do anything that's gonna cause
don't do anything that's gonna cause other people harm right and but it's not
other people harm right and but it's not to sort of active help people in some
to sort of active help people in some Buddhist stuff where compassion lead you
Buddhist stuff where compassion lead you to this more activist idea of going out
to this more activist idea of going out and helping people right I don't think I
and helping people right I don't think I think I am saw in the yoga Sutra and
think I am saw in the yoga Sutra and yoga traditions is not it it's more
yoga traditions is not it it's more Jainism it's it's more sort of it's a
Jainism it's it's more sort of it's a kind of libertarian side you know right
kind of libertarian side you know right sort of let people be you know you don't
sort of let people be you know you don't have to go out of your way to help them
have to go out of your way to help them but you surely shouldn't hurt them right
but you surely shouldn't hurt them right and and so they have their own processes
and and so they have their own processes whereas I don't know the Buddhists you
whereas I don't know the Buddhists you know in in a way it seems to me that
know in in a way it seems to me that that ethic of you know let people follow
that ethic of you know let people follow their own way their own Dharma is maybe
their own way their own Dharma is maybe more in in in Hindu traditions
more in in in Hindu traditions whereas the Buddhist you know they
whereas the Buddhist you know they wanted to convert people they they they
wanted to convert people they they they serve they we got to truth we want to
serve they we got to truth we want to and I don't know if that's so good I
and I don't know if that's so good I mean I have a I have a couple of friends
mean I have a I have a couple of friends who really dislike Buddhism and
who really dislike Buddhism and particularly in their understanding in
particularly in their understanding in the class whole context president
the class whole context president they're like they're like the Muslims
they're like they're like the Muslims and the Christians they don't leave
and the Christians they don't leave people alone they want to make everybody
people alone they want to make everybody a Buddhist it's on right I don't know I
a Buddhist it's on right I don't know I mean I guess here we're getting a him
mean I guess here we're getting a him sign into politics but right I mean I
sign into politics but right I mean I mean for me like yeah I think those
mean for me like yeah I think those demarcations you're making a correct
demarcations you're making a correct like the the James are let's not abstain
like the the James are let's not abstain it's abstention it's not him side is not
it's abstention it's not him side is not like an active like activism like you're
like an active like activism like you're saying and let this do that but let's
saying and let this do that but let's like knope's eristic yeah yeah but in
like knope's eristic yeah yeah but in the keep that sense with your local
the keep that sense with your local something on yoga kshema both those
something on yoga kshema both those ideas a little more isn't it yeah that's
ideas a little more isn't it yeah that's that's requiring more of you right say
that's requiring more of you right say wrong yeah it's a little different and a
wrong yeah it's a little different and a passion about traditions isn't it yeah
passion about traditions isn't it yeah maybe the Shiva shy by traditions are a
maybe the Shiva shy by traditions are a little less community oriented well I
little less community oriented well I mean I don't know because I mean if you
mean I don't know because I mean if you look at the the shyboy traditions in the
look at the the shyboy traditions in the exhibition that thumbing side to what
exhibition that thumbing side to what they called Niners they're they're very
they called Niners they're they're very they're very socially conscious and it's
they're very socially conscious and it's very concerned with with social
very concerned with with social upliftment and it's it's really
upliftment and it's it's really interesting I think there's
interesting I think there's there's a philosophical side of things
there's a philosophical side of things and then it's like how people think
and then it's like how people think about the philosophy and apply it in the
about the philosophy and apply it in the real world a lot of the like month watch
real world a lot of the like month watch idea descendants like the the Britten
idea descendants like the the Britten Vasa theosophy about all these other
Vasa theosophy about all these other people that were very hardcore socially
people that were very hardcore socially conscious always caring about people
conscious always caring about people that are downtrodden and trying to but
that are downtrodden and trying to but it's there's like yeah the history's
it's there's like yeah the history's really complex yeah but but but I think
really complex yeah but but but I think more than anything else these issues are
more than anything else these issues are not Hindu Muslim whatever human issues
not Hindu Muslim whatever human issues right at some point you look at it you
right at some point you look at it you look at suffering you just can't sit by
look at suffering you just can't sit by right oh yeah yeah there's there's this
right oh yeah yeah there's there's this Buddhists didn't yeah I think it is
Buddhists didn't yeah I think it is where he says kinds of some great lines
where he says kinds of some great lines where he says why do we want to
where he says why do we want to eliminate suffering just because it's
eliminate suffering just because it's suffering wherever suffering a crisis
suffering wherever suffering a crisis its suffering gosh I mean it doesn't
its suffering gosh I mean it doesn't matter who's suffering it is he says you
matter who's suffering it is he says you know we boot the Buddhist believe that
know we boot the Buddhist believe that suffering doesn't belong to anyone the
suffering doesn't belong to anyone the you know the individual person is really
you know the individual person is really a kind of convenient the idea is a
a kind of convenient the idea is a convenient fiction there is no enduring
convenient fiction there is no enduring person nevertheless suffering or is bad
person nevertheless suffering or is bad but but but get rid of it but in some
but but but get rid of it but in some sense in some sense to like your idea of
sense in some sense to like your idea of soul making require suffering right yes
soul making require suffering right yes yes yes suffering at least in pain is
yes yes suffering at least in pain is looked upon as a kind of instrumental
looked upon as a kind of instrumental good so let's be able to overcome it it
good so let's be able to overcome it it gives us something to overcome and and
gives us something to overcome and and it sparks us to develop which which
it sparks us to develop which which makes a lot more sense within the
makes a lot more sense within the rebirth scenario right of having
rebirth scenario right of having lifetimes after lifetimes to refine
lifetimes after lifetimes to refine yourself in the heat of the fire you
yourself in the heat of the fire you know to be the the perfect steel or the
know to be the the perfect steel or the wonderful glass or whatever it is you
wonderful glass or whatever it is you want to be but it's it's that that
want to be but it's it's that that engagement with the suffering of
engagement with the suffering of because just just simply pain I mean we
because just just simply pain I mean we don't know have to learn right I mean
don't know have to learn right I mean there's got to be standards but you
there's got to be standards but you can't you don't want to burn tissue you
can't you don't want to burn tissue you don't want to stick your hand in the
don't want to stick your hand in the fire but what else we feel pain it's a
fire but what else we feel pain it's a good thing but it's also like the way I
good thing but it's also like the way I say sometimes relationships are built
say sometimes relationships are built stronger through going something
stronger through going something together and the relationship may be in
together and the relationship may be in the sense with God if you go through the
the sense with God if you go through the relationship with God through the
relationship with God through the suffering together it refers that bond
suffering together it refers that bond or it can break it and that's really
or it can break it and that's really what with the issue of I think people
what with the issue of I think people tend to have constantly yes and but
tend to have constantly yes and but what's what's so wonderful about a
what's what's so wonderful about a philosophy of rebirth is you know it's
philosophy of rebirth is you know it's never absolutely broken you're always
never absolutely broken you're always gonna chance I've said that to me I
gonna chance I've said that to me I think you know you die you die he
think you know you die you die he dormice your glut you know and so on I
dormice your glut you know and so on I mean nobody says he never you're never
mean nobody says he never you're never lost yeah what he said forget what he
lost yeah what he said forget what he says in two or three where he tells
says in two or three where he tells Arjuna basically whatever is gained in
Arjuna basically whatever is gained in spiritual practice you know are lost
spiritual practice you know are lost yeah this open us you Dharma's yes maha
yeah this open us you Dharma's yes maha that's it it's something like says maja
that's it it's something like says maja maja beyond it says from the great fear
maja beyond it says from the great fear yeah bit of this teaching yeah yeah
yeah bit of this teaching yeah yeah saves from the great fear that is
saves from the great fear that is everything can contribute to your sort
everything can contribute to your sort of yeah exactly which is which is a
of yeah exactly which is which is a beautiful concept right like every I
beautiful concept right like every I mean the plaintiff the pleasure it's so
mean the plaintiff the pleasure it's so life-affirming yeah yeah yeah you know
life-affirming yeah yeah yeah you know and the Cologne of a tundra has that
and the Cologne of a tundra has that there's a line I am it somewhere in that
there's a line I am it somewhere in that book we're on the path of you know
book we're on the path of you know everyone is on the on the Panthers Shiva
everyone is on the on the Panthers Shiva every everyone belongs to the great
every everyone belongs to the great family the Kula yeah on this path which
family the Kula yeah on this path which is not an easy bet that's like trying to
is not an easy bet that's like trying to hold the tail of the tiger
hold the tail of the tiger and it's a very large ad but even a fall
and it's a very large ad but even a fall is art is art yes or material for art
is art is art yes or material for art yeah so there's ultimately no way to get
yeah so there's ultimately no way to get off the path it's it's great and just
off the path it's it's great and just another side note which I really think
another side note which I really think is interesting on the philosophy side of
is interesting on the philosophy side of the hole is the the demarcation of the
the hole is the the demarcation of the mind from the spirit is I think so
mind from the spirit is I think so vitally different you talk about the the
vitally different you talk about the the Cartesian dichotomy versus the yogic
Cartesian dichotomy versus the yogic dichotomy and I think that is such a
dichotomy and I think that is such a unique way to view modern you know you
unique way to view modern you know you can talk about consciousness and
can talk about consciousness and cautions and studies and that way we
cautions and studies and that way we don't have to link the mind
don't have to link the mind we'll have to link it to the mind the
we'll have to link it to the mind the way was yeah and I think that can that
way was yeah and I think that can that offers a break like I really could break
offers a break like I really could break an understanding what are we going from
an understanding what are we going from consciousness is a kind of at least
consciousness is a kind of at least triple ism something like consciousness
triple ism something like consciousness mentality and right in physicality yeah
mentality and right in physicality yeah because I mean in in the yogic system
because I mean in in the yogic system and sankhya system it's the mind is
and sankhya system it's the mind is physical sighs yeah but it's not
physical sighs yeah but it's not physical like touchable and stuff but
physical like touchable and stuff but yeah it's something yeah but I think
yeah it's something yeah but I think these plexus I love the concept of
these plexus I love the concept of chittim yeah it's it's it's it's part of
chittim yeah it's it's it's it's part of property is part of nature but it's it's
property is part of nature but it's it's got intentionality right right like any
got intentionality right right like any old kind of nature that's amazing right
old kind of nature that's amazing right just just the concept of - I think is I
just just the concept of - I think is I find it be so fascinating when you
find it be so fascinating when you compare it from at least the eastern or
compare it from at least the eastern or Hindu Jain with this thought to the
Hindu Jain with this thought to the Western thought of what mine is it's
Western thought of what mine is it's Russell so much more dynamically yeah
Russell so much more dynamically yeah right yeah so see then let's see again
right yeah so see then let's see again this is you know you know maybe the
this is you know you know maybe the Csonka system is not the richest
Csonka system is not the richest philosophy
philosophy in India and but it should mean sir but
in India and but it should mean sir but it's like the basin it's got such basic
it's like the basin it's got such basic notions that come on any philosopher
notions that come on any philosopher west east north south they should know
west east north south they should know this stuff I mean this again my big ax
this stuff I mean this again my big ax to grind a certain Texas full circle is
to grind a certain Texas full circle is you know at least as a professional
you know at least as a professional academic is this should these traditions
academic is this should these traditions should be part of the graduate
should be part of the graduate curriculum in philosophy well I mean I
curriculum in philosophy well I mean I think you might have made this point
think you might have made this point before but I've definitely read it
before but I've definitely read it somewhere else to is even the term when
somewhere else to is even the term when you have a philosophy department it's
you have a philosophy department it's automatically always philosophy of the
automatically always philosophy of the Western world right it's just a Greek
Western world right it's just a Greek philosophy and then if you want classics
philosophy and then if you want classics you go to an Indian philosophy
you go to an Indian philosophy department which usually might be part
department which usually might be part of religious studies or something else
of religious studies or something else but I think that should be broken down
but I think that should be broken down and not I really think like colleagues
and not I really think like colleagues University of Texas that they appointed
University of Texas that they appointed me in a philosophy department there are
me in a philosophy department there are a few places now that are doing that
a few places now that are doing that like you know Janardan canary was just
like you know Janardan canary was just given up a lot philosophy position at
given up a lot philosophy position at Toronto right yeah and you know an
Toronto right yeah and you know an Oxford with with mati law and you know
Oxford with with mati law and you know right so it's gradually happening but
right so it's gradually happening but but even in India there's there needs to
but even in India there's there needs to be more integration yeah India is it's
be more integration yeah India is it's such a weird thing to me because even
such a weird thing to me because even we're talking about you know Rahman
we're talking about you know Rahman giant Antalya and the other pundit
giant Antalya and the other pundit doesn't you learned from Aceh I guess
doesn't you learned from Aceh I guess it's they should they should be
it's they should they should be equivalent of PhDs in these subject
equivalent of PhDs in these subject study in the university though but
study in the university though but they're not paid like PhD but not
they're not paid like PhD but not anything the page many people don't even
anything the page many people don't even cite them when they don't know that's
cite them when they don't know that's right they don't pay attention to and
right they don't pay attention to and and that said this is so much
and that said this is so much information and knowledge that these
information and knowledge that these people have and I mean be honest they're
people have and I mean be honest they're walking encyclopedia ISM that's right
walking encyclopedia ISM that's right that guy I'm telling you
that guy I'm telling you Ramanujan territory some of the
Ramanujan territory some of the original pundits gosh unbelievably
original pundits gosh unbelievably studious yeah I mean have worked so hard
studious yeah I mean have worked so hard and brilliant I don't know I don't know
and brilliant I don't know I don't know also I love Sanskrit I mean since
also I love Sanskrit I mean since there's a great language I love Santa
there's a great language I love Santa I love the Indian tradition I also love
I love the Indian tradition I also love like I love medieval European philosophy
like I love medieval European philosophy I love continental philosophy Spinoza as
I love continental philosophy Spinoza as my man like when it comes to continental
my man like when it comes to continental philosophy I just I really enjoy his
philosophy I just I really enjoy his work I mean I don't agree with
work I mean I don't agree with everything but I really enjoy what he
everything but I really enjoy what he brings to that table but I did my
brings to that table but I did my masters in continental philosophy but I
masters in continental philosophy but I didn't finish it to me I have a couple
didn't finish it to me I have a couple of Isis which includes trade young so I
of Isis which includes trade young so I think that prevented me when I was in
think that prevented me when I was in law school for finishing that but I
law school for finishing that but I really you're a recovering lawyer that's
really you're a recovering lawyer that's right and I loved like I one of my
right and I loved like I one of my papers I did in my grad program was
papers I did in my grad program was comparison between Shankara and Martin
comparison between Shankara and Martin Heidegger I thought well yeah being in
Heidegger I thought well yeah being in time and the concept logos and how that
time and the concept logos and how that plays with Bremen concept was very
plays with Bremen concept was very interesting to me in the play between
interesting to me in the play between those two yeah I don't really know much
those two yeah I don't really know much about that I mean I I you know it's like
about that I mean I I you know it's like there was so much yelling scream about
there was so much yelling scream about classical Indian being a Sanskrit is
classical Indian being a Sanskrit is that on yes a little you know with you
that on yes a little you know with you know and I know Harvard and and Texas
know and I know Harvard and and Texas strong analytic Department I'm really a
strong analytic Department I'm really a little short on I mean for me if these
little short on I mean for me if these things are universally true
things are universally true they must exist in all cultures and all
they must exist in all cultures and all different yeah I know let's say I really
different yeah I know let's say I really love some of the existentialist I know
love some of the existentialist I know that the novels of Camus yeah some of
that the novels of Camus yeah some of the Sartre stuff yeah it's really really
the Sartre stuff yeah it's really really really great sort of it's you know right
really great sort of it's you know right so I've taken up a lot of by the way
so I've taken up a lot of by the way thought those existentialist they are
thought those existentialist they are they do value you know conscious
they do value you know conscious they're not you know it's like what it
they're not you know it's like what it what is absurd atoms in science you know
what is absurd atoms in science you know Camus says I look at my hand suppose to
Camus says I look at my hand suppose to be mad if items I I could no way relate
be mad if items I I could no way relate to my hand being made out of right
to my hand being made out of right absurd to me I have to make choices on
absurd to me I have to make choices on the basis of you know the way things in
the basis of you know the way things in here you know appearances from the in
here you know appearances from the in the phenomenal world appearances our
the phenomenal world appearances our reality and something the hell with
reality and something the hell with science I mean and so in a way that
science I mean and so in a way that really with the emphasis on experience
really with the emphasis on experience and together with the Indian traditions
and together with the Indian traditions well I mean it came together with
well I mean it came together with Schopenhauer and then the exponential is
Schopenhauer and then the exponential is phenomenal is kind of have a line from
phenomenal is kind of have a line from show up an hour to them right so
show up an hour to them right so Schopenhauer brought in the big Don
Schopenhauer brought in the big Don thing with this idea maybe not in the
thing with this idea maybe not in the greatest ways no no no I mean I'm not
greatest ways no no no I mean I'm not saying that but it's just there's that
saying that but it's just there's that connection where it's sort of but I've
connection where it's sort of but I've taken up so much of your time professor
taken up so much of your time professor I you know I really appreciate it
I you know I really appreciate it is there anything else that you think
is there anything else that you think that you want to talk about or bring up
that you want to talk about or bring up that's what I do
that's what I do so I appreciate it was wonderful to read
so I appreciate it was wonderful to read your books and have a conversation with
your books and have a conversation with you but i am i will get that other book
you but i am i will get that other book that you put out the Rutledge the one
that you put out the Rutledge the one epistemology oh yeah and and yeah and my
epistemology oh yeah and and yeah and my any of my three volumes right so are you
any of my three volumes right so are you working so you're working on anything
working so you're working on anything else right now
else right now what I sent you on I'm actually working
what I sent you on I'm actually working on I'm reading chunker's commentaries on
on I'm reading chunker's commentaries on the punishments and I think what I'm
the punishments and I think what I'm going to do is read every commentary in
going to do is read every commentary in Sanskrit that I can my hands on on the e
Sanskrit that I can my hands on on the e show on a shot and just like I said
show on a shot and just like I said attempted to do Sri Archer but cherish
attempted to do Sri Archer but cherish is actually really hard he's such a good
is actually really hard he's such a good point most philosophers like Ganesha he
point most philosophers like Ganesha he has some long complicated thoughts and
has some long complicated thoughts and long complicated sentences but his
long complicated sentences but his vocabulary is not all that rich I didn't
vocabulary is not all that rich I didn't have to look up a lot of words in
have to look up a lot of words in dictionary so on right
dictionary so on right where sri Harsha's a poet and even an
where sri Harsha's a poet and even an incumbent upon the Konya he's always
incumbent upon the Konya he's always playing with you and he has these you
playing with you and he has these you know shades of meaning and he has a lot
know shades of meaning and he has a lot of you know sense was kind of really
of you know sense was kind of really written and so you you have to spend a
written and so you you have to spend a lot of time in the dictionary and and
lot of time in the dictionary and and whereas Shankara is as a prose stylists
whereas Shankara is as a prose stylists right is absolutely clear there there's
right is absolutely clear there there's I mean he's like a model of lucidity
I mean he's like a model of lucidity right and and so it's pretty pretty easy
right and and so it's pretty pretty easy to read and I don't know I also love the
to read and I don't know I also love the shadow Punisher so I so I've decided to
shadow Punisher so I so I've decided to work on on that and and not sure Harsha
work on on that and and not sure Harsha but I don't know maybe maybe change my
but I don't know maybe maybe change my mind it's really nice
mind it's really nice even though gosh I've made a living
even though gosh I've made a living talking I haven't talked now for a few
talking I haven't talked now for a few months to anyone now except you right
months to anyone now except you right right I'm tired and so I have a lot more
right I'm tired and so I have a lot more time so us aside from the Sanskrit text
time so us aside from the Sanskrit text and reading what else are you gonna do
and reading what else are you gonna do with your retirement time I had this is
with your retirement time I had this is I know sounds like terrible indulgence
I know sounds like terrible indulgence but we remodeled this old adobe house in
but we remodeled this old adobe house in New Mexico I got a special on a sauna I
New Mexico I got a special on a sauna I know this say you know this be chrome
know this say you know this be chrome Yoga is sort of been criticized as maybe
Yoga is sort of been criticized as maybe not the healthiest way but I really like
not the healthiest way but I really like getting very hot and then doing asanas
getting very hot and then doing asanas and bit because they're easier right i
and bit because they're easier right i right
right when you're when you are when you when
when you're when you are when you when you go into a sauna and you get really
you go into a sauna and you get really hot it's easier to stretch and right so
hot it's easier to stretch and right so I I'm enjoying that well good luck with
I I'm enjoying that well good luck with that and thank you so much for your time
that and thank you so much for your time and and your patience but I will I will
and and your patience but I will I will definitely keep in touch and thank you
definitely keep in touch and thank you for everything
for everything I appreciate it all right no stay
[Music] yeah will not be a guy
it [Music]
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