The discussion explores the challenges and strategies for changing habits, particularly focusing on improving eating habits, by understanding the external environment, internal motivations, and practical techniques for sustainable lifestyle changes.
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there's a similar pattern that happens
with a lot of habits you know like
you'll hear gamblers say like I don't
even want to do it anymore but I can't
stop myself one of the surprising things
about a lot of the research around
self-control and willpower is that James
Clear is the world's number one habit
expert the author of The New York Times
bestseller Atomic habits which has sold
more than 15 million copies worldwide
the external environment has made it
easier and cheaper than ever to consume
more calories than before the reality
for most of these Foods is you feel
terrible the role of the food industry
they primary goal is to sell food
products you have to make those Foods
extra delicious and not filling to make
sure that more of them can be eaten Dr
fed am mati nutrition lead at Imperial
College School of Medicine scientific
researcher and head nutritionist at Zoe
James can I ask you something a little
controversial on this to really change
your long-term lifestyle and health was
to change your friends because they are
the biggest driver in fact of your
environment and what you do or is that a
bit too radical for you if you want to
build a good habit every action you take
is a vote for the type of person you
wish to become the real answer to how
is James and fed thank you for joining
me today pleasure to talk to you thanks
for having me excited to be here
Jonathan so Federica knows this and I'm
very excited to have her join the
podcast having been at Zoe now for a
long time but James you will probably
not be familiar but we have this
tradition that we always start with a
quick fire round of questions from our
listeners uh and we have these uh very
strict rules you can say yes or no or if
you absolutely have to you can give us a
one- sentence answer are you willing to
give it
again I'm going to be so bad at this all
right go ahead good well you know you
can only imagine how hard professors
find it so uh starting with you James is
habits yes that was a long pause all
right can a small habit change now make
a huge impact on our
future yes definitely okay fed does our
modern environment push us to unhealthy
eating habits unfortunately
yes can simple changes at home help us
to eat healthily with less thought yes
okay and James we had this question from
a lot of our listeners is it true it
takes 28 days to break a habit
habit
no uh ah okay there we go I'm caught out
all right and finally James and you can
have a you can have a couple of
sentences now what's the biggest myth
about habits and habit change well one
of the biggest myths is the very first
thing you asked about which is is it
easy to change your habits and a lot of
people think it's very hard to change
habits it's actually quite easy you do
it all the time one of your brain's
primary um objectives is to change your
behavior based on the room or the people
that you are around and so you are
changing your behavor Behavior
constantly what is quite difficult is to
design your behavior to your liking and
so it requires much more strategic
thought and um tactics to do that and uh
we will talk about all that today I have
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sound fair okay let's get on with the
show I love that so we are constantly
changing we're like a machine for
changing but the problem is we respond
to the environment as opposed to saying
like oh I want to be like this and if I
say I want to be like this this is um
this is tricky correct it's like
proactive versus reactive are you in
control of the process and shaping the
design or are you responding to what's
going on around you and reacting to uh
what's happening in life well we're
definitely going to talk about all of
the these uh actionable tips for doing
that but I'd like actually to start by
just setting the scene so you know it's
January which is a time when many of us
plan to make positive changes in our
lives um and some of us choose to do
this in the form of New Year's
resolutions it's very much part of the
culture now we don't really love the
concept of New Year's resolutions here
at Zoe um and maybe I can start feder
why why is it that in general we're not
so keen on this
idea well Jonathan usually when we think
about New New Year's resolutions we know
that they don't really stick so
unfortunately people do go into January
making huge changes and having very very
ambitious goals without a step-by-step
plan and so a lot of these resolutions
end up not happening by February so
there's quite nice data around how long
actually people stick to resolutions and
a vast majority of them have failed by
the summertime and certainly over nine
out of 10 of them have failed by the end
of the year so at Zoe we're all about
sustainable change and making change for
life so what we don't want is for people
to feel overwhelmed in January with
these huge resolutions that won't stick
and James how do how do you feel as you
hear that I agree with parts of it so I
I'm probably more neutral about news
resolutions I don't think they're
amazing or anything but I also feel like
if you have some kind of motivation to
change and the turning over to a new
year is one reason for attempting that
then that's fine to use it there is some
research that shows I think they call it
the Fresh Start effect but people tend
to be more motivated at the beginning of
the day the beginning of the week the
beginning of a month or the beginning of
a year and we see this effect all the
time with people choosing to you know
start a new challenge at the beginning
of the month or to you know adopt a New
Year's resolution or something like that
so certainly if you find that it gives
you some desire to get started on
something that you think is important to
you then utilizing that motivation is
totally fine that said said I don't
think there's any reason to wait until
New Year's to make a change if you feel
like making it in July or in October
that is totally fine and you don't need
to save it for any reason I also agree
with the data uh that Federica shared
about um the vast majority of new
resolutions falling off Course and there
are many things that show this to be the
case um I think the summary is if New
Year's gives you a little bit of boost
of motivation and you want to get
started great go ahead and use that no
reason to wait if you feel that way
somewhere else throughout the year um
but mostly what this comes down to and I
think is also at the core of what feder
R was uh getting at is coming up with a
better system for change coming up with
a better approach for trying to achieve
the things that we say are important to
us and if we do have a better approach
then hopefully the odds of success are
much higher well that's that's quite
relieving I guess because it means
everybody listening January doesn't have
to say okay well I better not make any
resolutions now I got to wait till June
so you can keep listening to the rest of
the podcast now look this is Zoe science
and nutrition so obviously there's many
many different habits that people could
be interested in in changing in January
but I think we're inevitably really
interested in saying you know what could
you do if you want to change the um the
way you eat in order to improve your
Dart in order to prove your health given
like this you know unbelievable evidence
now about just how important what you
eat is for your for your health so I
think that's where we'd love to um focus
before we start to talk about all the
clever ways that maybe we might try and
um achieve those habits
I'd actually love to start with like why
is it so hard for us to achieve our
goals about changing what we in the
first place and actually maybe I could
start federi with with you about like so
what role is like the food that food
companies are making and that you know
are sitting in our grocery store um
playing in this well I think Jonathan
it's important to remember when we talk
about the role of the food industry that
their primary goal is to sell food
products and we live in a world now
where luckily we have more than enough
food for everybody in countries like the
UK and the us at least um so if you're
an industry that's trying to sell more
products and there's enough food to eat
you have to make those Foods extra
delicious and not filling to make sure
that more of them can be eaten now the
food industry is very good at doing this
they formulate products and test them
and see which is the most delicious and
the most moish and which one can you eat
more of and those are the ones that end
up on our shelves and so you know food
companies I think we can't it's not
about demonizing the food industry you
know they are an industry looking to
make money and they're very good at that
and their shareholders are happy about
that it's just about working with the
food industry and putting some
regulations in place so that we're not
constantly bombarded with this message
and so that we do have some
opportunities where for example near
schools and where children are involved
where there's less of it so that we can
actually help to shape a better each
eating environment especially for those
who are more vulnerable and who are more
affected by the impact of poor nutrition
in the long term um so yeah they do
definitely have a role to play but it's
really important we work together to try
and resolve it I think James what are
your thoughts well I have two thoughts
um one is internal to the person who's
trying to change their behavior and one
is external to the the food that we're
actually talking about so to build off
of feder's comments let's start with the
external one so that you know there are
many things
that uh food companies do to try to
create foods that are more palatable or
more desirable so some of them like one
thing that's pretty common is to use
Dynamic contrast which is like this this
contrast between soft and creamy or
crunchy or you know like imagine like an
Oreo cookie where it's like creamy on
the inside but crunchy on the outside or
um the top of like creme brulee and you
know that uh contrast is very desirable
it's very palatable it's very
interesting compared to say like a
crunch of broccoli which is more or less
the same texture throughout and so they
find ways to introduce novelty into
Foods in these highly engineered ways
that are uh you know like we we're still
walking around with the same Paleolithic
Hardware in our brains that our
ancestors had and finding something like
an Oreo in um you know nature was
impossible and so now you come across
these interesting things that like light
your taste buds up and so there you know
there are tons of scientists and
Engineers working on problems like this
to try to create foods that are highly
desirable and structured in that way um
and I don't know that we need to
necessarily assign like some kind of
evil to that but just to say Hey listen
this is like this is the reality now
these Foods exist and they did not exist
for most of human history and so
naturally you are going to feel
compelled to eat more of those or to
consume a greater amount of calories
when you know things are structured in
that way so that is just the reality of
our environment that we're in and you
can imagine imagine I at one point I saw
a graph and I can't remember the exact
number but just to explain the pattern
you'll you'll get the general idea it's
basically like you could explain a great
deal of the rise in obesity over the
last 50 years if people just ate an
additional 300 to 500 calories a day and
300 to 500 calories is so easy to find
especially with some of these highly
engineer food foods and the prevalence
of food so um I think the the punchline
here is just the external environment
has made it easier than ever and cheaper
than ever to consume more calories than
before um and so that is just a a
reality of where we're at um all right
now the second piece that came to mind
is um I think your original question was
something around like what makes it
difficult for people to achieve their
goals uh related to this and I think if
we connect this with our conversation
about New Year's resolutions just a
moment ago a lot of the time when people
set out with a goal or some kind of
resolution that they want to achieve
they start out by thinking about the
results they want oh I want to lose a
certain amount of weight in the next six
months or something like that and uh
they don't think nearly as much about
the type of person they wish to be or
about the type of identity they hope to
have and I think that is an interesting
internal conversation to have um you
know like we sort of assume that if we
lose a certain amount of weight then
we'll be happy with ourselves or that
we'll be the kind of person we wanted to
be or that our lives will somehow be
satisfying and better and I think if in
instead we start with not what do we
wish to achieve but who do I wish to
become deciding on that identity from
the start and then being able to draw a
through line being able to connect the
habits that you're trying to perform
with the type of person that you wish to
become I think gives you a deeper reason
to stick to habits you know we often
talk about habits as mattering because
of the external results that they'll get
you hey habits will help you lose weight
or make more money or be more productive
and it's true habits can help you do
that stuff and that's great but the real
reason that habits matter is that every
action you take is a vote for the type
of person you wish to become and so they
are the way in which you embody a
particular identity you know every day
that you make your bed you embody the
identity of someone who's clean and
organized and so by casting these small
votes for being that person and drawing
that connection between your habits and
your desired identity I think it becomes
a little bit easier to stick to the the
daily lifestyle and not get as wrapped
up in the goal or the outcome it's
really interesting James so just to make
sure I've got that you're saying in a
sense you're focus more on the things
that you're doing each day that reflect
like this slightly modified version of
yourself the version you want to be
that's a bit better rather than just
focusing on like I'm going to be Slimmer
or more beautiful or like I'm going to
be really healthy versus that unhealthy
version at the end but not thinking
about like well actually that means that
I'm going to going to make this
different Choice when I go out for
dinner and I'm not going to have the
burger and chips CU actually the sort of
person I want to be is the person who
decides to eat you know that other you
know plant heavy meal that's going to be
really good for me versus the burger and
chips rather than saying oh I don't
really want to change that I just want
to be this you know healthy you know
person in a year but don't really embody
myself having a different lifestyle just
somehow magically being that other
person to want the result but to not be
interested in living the lifestyle is to
basically guarantee frustration and so
it's just figuring out having this
honest conversation with yourself about
the type of identity that you wish to
have and the type of Lifestyle you wish
to live and then connecting that to the
results that are naturally you know
reasonable given that um just to give
like two other real brief examples
rather than saying you know I'm the type
of person who wants to lift a certain
amount of weight or I want to you know I
want to hit a certain result in the gym
you can just be like I want to build the
identity of someone who doesn't miss
workouts and that gives you such a
different lens for thinking about that
you know now you can feel successful
anytime you went to the gym you're not
waiting to hit a certain number uh to
feel happy with yourself or the other
thing that is a deep truth about habits
but we often Overlook is that your habit
often needs to change shape over time
you know life is dynamic not static and
we we never say this explicitly but a
lot of people have this kind of
assumption that what it would look like
to be successful with your habits is to
pick one and stick to it and then you
just do it forever for the rest of your
life but like if we take my writing
habit for example this is one of the
biggest habits in my career for the
first three years I wrote a new article
every Monday and Thursday so those were
like 2,000 words a piece and that was a
certain style and that really served me
in that time and then I signed the book
deal to write Atomic abits and the next
three to five years were a very
different type of writing for writing
the book and then now the last four
years I write a daily news letter called
321 it's much shorter it takes like 3
hours to do and it's a different type of
writing I've maintained a writing habit
the whole time so my identity if I said
my identity is I am a writer well now I
have I'm casting votes for that identity
but it's taking a different shape based
on the season of life that I'm in and I
think people often will pick a diet to
follow and then you know when their
season of Life Changes they can't follow
it anymore they somehow feel like a
failure they feel like oh I knew I
wasn't going to be able to stick to it
why did I even try this always happens
to me you know this kind of like
negative selft talk starts and if
instead you can see your life as a
series of seasons and maintain a
cohesive identity throughout you can
cast votes for that identity in
different ways depending on which season
you're in and so it also by making it
identity focused and not necessarily
results focused you give yourself some
additional flexibility in figuring out
how to make it work for you over time hi
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gutshot okay back to the show James
before we move on to I guess like the
positive ways of think about building up
the habits I think one thing I'd like to
spend a minute with with Federica on is
just it can be very easy I think to fall
onto that self-blame that you just
talked about to feel that like
everything is just because of your own
failure and how hard it is and you know
interestingly you know we are in this
world where for the last 50 years people
have said well for example losing weight
is as simple as just like have fewer
calories and if you can't do that it's
just because you have no self-control
and interestingly all the science and
every single nutritional scientist I've
spoken to in the Las five years I said
well that's just not true that doesn't
reflect the science as we understand it
now um and therefore there's this sort
of Gap between everybody bidding
themselves up because it's all about
willpower and then I think more and more
of the science talking about um you know
the biology that we have for example how
much harder it is to to lose weight than
to to put on weight but also I think the
increasing interest in the way in which
the the food that we eat it's not just
it has more calories or that it's tasty
but we have this New Concept sort of
around Ultra processed foods and that if
you're listening to this in the states
or Canada or the UK then you know you're
probably eating more than 50% of your
diet that is ultra processed fed can you
tell us a little bit about like I guess
what the latest science is telling us
about that because I guess that's part
of the challenge that we're then facing
as as James is helping us to uh to
understand how to uh to achieve our
goals nonetheless yes and Jonathan I
think a really big part of it is for
people to be aware so talking about
these foods and talking about what they
are is a step in the right direction cuz
as James said if you know the kind of
person you want to be and it comes back
to the big why like why are we doing
this why do you want to have a healthier
diet why do you want to feel better we
need to have also the right Tools in our
toolkit to be able to achieve those
daily goals and Ultra processed foods
and the science around them has shown us
that you know if you are somebody who
wants to see themselves as being healthy
and active and your why is because you
want to play with your grandchildren one
day Ultra processed foods are not going
to help you together so Ultra processed
food science is evolving very rapidly
and there's a big big body of evidence
coming out specifically with Association
studies so when we're looking at large
cohort data and we're associating ultr
processed food consumption with specific
Health outcomes now there's I think at
one point there was a paper coming out
every single week that was a huge
analysis of hundreds of thousands of
people that looked at okay the more
Ultra processed food you're consuming
the more likely you are to suffer with
consequences such as type 2 diabetes
cardiovascular disease heart disease um
you know metabolic disease mental health
disorders and what's important to say is
that this body of evidence is really
growing and and it's all pointing in One
Direction um to associate these foods
and we're still looking to do more
research to understand the mechanisms as
to how this is happening an ultra
processed food there is a classification
called the Nova classification which is
like the gold standard for now but I'm
sure that will evolve too and
essentially these are foods that are
made industrially so they are some you
know Tim Spa loves to call them edible
food like substances they are these
foods that are made in in large
factories and there are a bunch of
chemicals that are thrown together to
look like food so essentially when
you're looking at the back of pack and
you're looking at an ingredients list if
you see lots of ingredients that you
wouldn't possibly have in your own
kitchen and if the food that you're
about to eat doesn't look anything like
food so an Oreo is a good example right
an Oreo doesn't look like anything you
could ever grow or kill um they are very
likely to be ultr processed foods and
these Ultra processed foods I mean I
think it's almost impossible to imagine
a world where there's not going to be
any of them but all we have to do is
zoom out a little bit to our European
neighbors and see that it is possible to
live in a world where maybe 10 to 15% of
our calories come from these Foods as
opposed to as you said Jonathan over 50%
and in some groups in our in the UK up to
to
75% so there are these food- like
substances that have mounting data
showing that they are not helpful for us
they are not good for our health
physical or mental and my biggest worry
is the impact that they're having
especially on our children because
children are amongst the highest
consumers of ultra processed foods I
think one of the things that seems to
have really changed our view about this
um is also understanding how this
interacts with our microbiome and from
there may even interact with our brain
and elsewhere so I think historically
the view of these Foods is well they're
they're not very good for you because
you know they're high in saturated fat
or they're high in calories but fed I
think what what we've seen you know even
just in the last couple of years right
in ter of some of this latest research
is a suggestion that these Foods May in
fact be influencing our brain and that's
sort of why I want to touch on this here
because I feel like you know there's
this double layer it's not just that it
happens to tastes nice but actually you
may be fighting foods which are actively
changing the things that you want to eat
like could you tell us a little bit
about that and then I'm hoping James is
going to tell us how to fight back yeah
for sure I mean you're right Jonathan we
are we have trillions of microbes in our
gut and one of the things that has
emerged in in the past Yeah couple of
years is that a lot of the ingredients
we're adding to these Ultra processed
foods seem to interact with our
microbiome in ways that we couldn't have
predicted so yes these foods are high in
fat salt sugar high in calories but the
UL if the sweeteners and the the fact
that the food structure is completely
destroyed means that our microbes are
interacting with these Foods very
differently to anything you would find
in nature and the the thing is is that
when we disrupt the G microbiome we are
disrupting an essential part of our
immune response and we're disrupting an
essential part of our gut brain
connection some of the science is
pointing to the fact that these Ultra
processed foods actually change our gut
microbiome composition but also change
the way that the gut microbiome
interacts with the layers of the gut and
sends messages through the Vagas nerve
to the point where we think it might be
influencing the food choices we make so
somebody who eats um for example Big Max
every day might actually be also
influencing their gut microbiome in a
way that makes them want to eat Big Macs
again and in an evolutionary sense this
makes sense because if you're a g microb
and you're thriving off some of these
chemicals or you're thriving off
specific composition of the Big Mac then
it is in your interest to survive by
getting your host I.E us to eat more Big
Macs um and you know if that's the case
then the impact the layers of impact
that Ultra processed foods are having on
us run really deep and it also helps to
address you know when I working as a
nutritionist I do work with people who
really change their dietary habits and
they'll say to me after some time I
can't believe I was eating this food so
often I don't even want to eat it
anymore so the actual desirability of
that food changes when you change what
you eat so feeding our G microbes does
also seem to feed the foods that our
brain then drives us to consume more of
which is really interesting there
there's a similar pattern that happens
with a lot of habits you know like
you'll hear gamblers say like I don't
even I don't even want to do it anymore
but I can't stop myself um and so there
are a lot of bad habits that people know
don't serve them but they still find
themselves compelled to do it the brain
is wired to notice and remember rewards
that are in your environment and so
you're going to remember anything that
feels good or that benefits you and that
includes not only food but also many
other experiences in life and so of
course if you're eating Big Macs or
whatever uh and that elicits a favorable
emotion or a positive response you're
going to remember that for next time and
um eventually the more that you repeat
that behavior and the more that you
receive that reward the tighter the loop
becomes and the more ingrain the Habit
becomes though one of the interesting
things I think often about these Foods
is you eat far too much and afterwards
you don't feel very good even when you
start right James so there is something
interesting about one's brain You' think
would have recognized this wasn't a
great pattern but before rather than
fall more and more down the loop of how
miserable and difficult this is actually
James I would love you to dig us out of
the H that feder is talking which is of
surrounded by all this brilliantly
designed food by these food Architects
that is like genius for like triggering
our desires maybe our microbiome is now
pulling us in the wrong direction you
have literally written the book on how
to change one's habits so could you I I
haven't been able to say that before I
like I like that that's a good line um
could you tell us about how to think
about making changes that then might
support new
resolutions sure so there's a lot more
science behind this for just for the
sake of this conversation I'll say if
you're interested in the science Atomic
habits covers that in much greater
detail so feel free to check it out
there but what I'm going to do is cut to
the chase in a practical sense and in a
practical sense if we're trying to
figure out what can I actually do about
this there are roughly four big
categories of things that you can focus
on and I refer to them as the four laws
of behavior change so if you want to
build a good habit there are four things
you can do the first thing is you want
to make it obvious so you want the cues
of your good habits to be obvious
available visible easy to see easier it
is to get your attention the more likely
you are to act on it the second law is
to make it attractive the more
attractive or appealing a habit is the
more motivating or enticing it is the
more likely you are to feel compelled to
do it the third law is to make it easy
the easier more convenient frictionless
simple a habit is the more likely it is
to be performed and then the fourth and
final law is to make it satisfying more
satisfying or enjoyable a habit is just
like we were talking about a minute ago
whatever you feel like is rewarding or
pleasurable the more likely you are to
repeat in the future so make it obvious
make it attractive make it easy make it
satisfying now there are many ways to do
each of those things and atomic habit
covers that in Greater detail and we'll
talk about some examples here in a
minute there are many ways to do those
different things um but if if you're
sitting there and you're listening to
this and you're thinking you know I have
this habit I just keep like I want to
get started but I keep procrastinating
on it or maybe you're like you know I I
have this Behavior I do it every now and
then but I wish I did it more
consistently you can just go through
those four laws and ask yourself how can
I make the behavior more obvious how can
I make it more attractive how can I make
it easier how can I make it more
satisfying and the answers to those
questions will reveal different steps
that you can take to increase the odds
that the behavior is going to occur you
don't always need all four but the more
of them that you have working for you
the better positioned you are to fall
through on a good habit now we can use
that framework to talk about building
better eating habits and that can be
helpful because good habits can sort of
like a plant crowding out another one a
good habit can kind of crowd out some of
your bad habits it creates less space
for those to kind of exist and be
repeated so that's a really effective
place to start of course many people are
also interested in how do I break a bad
habit um and so to break a bad habit you
just invert those four so rather than
making it obvious make it invisible
unsubscribe from emails don't keep junk
food in the house if you're trying to
follow a new diet don't follow a bunch
of food bloggers on Instagram you know
like reduce exposure to the queue rather
than making it attractive make it
unattractive rather than making it easy
make it difficult so increase friction
add steps between you and the behavior
and then rather than making it
satisfying make it unsatisfying layer on
some kind of a cost or a consequence to
the action so to build a good habit make
it obvious attractive easy satisfying to
break a bad habit make it invisible
unattractive difficult unsatisfying and
again there are many ways to do each of
those things but that's like the big
picture framework to keep in mind thank
you James I would love to dig into each
of those in turn just to make sure that
um I and the listeners understand it a
bit more so could we maybe start with
the first one he said make it obvious so
imagine someone's listening here and
saying like I want to go and make these
changes to um to what I'm eting what
does make it obvious mean so it's mostly
about how you structure your environment
and I think a simple question to hold in
the back of your mind just like think
about one habit that you're trying to
build maybe it's a certain type of food
you're hoping to eat more of or you know
something you're hoping to do maybe you
just want to cook more meals or
something like that um and then walk
into the rooms where you spend most of
your time each day and your kitchen your
living room your bedroom look around
those rooms and just ask yourself what
is this space designed to encourage what
behaviors are obvious here what
behaviors are easy here and you know if
you walk into one person's house and the
chips and the cookies and snacks are on
the counter and visible and easy to get
to and you walk into another person's
house and those things are either tucked
away maybe some of them already been in
the house or they're you know on the
highest shelf in the back of the pantry
and they're harder to get to and they've
got you know a piece of fruit out on the
counter individually these are small
choices and no single one of them is
going to radically transform your
behavior you're not just going to be
able to put an apple on the counter and
magically become a healthy person but
collectively you can make a dozen or two
dozen or 50 little adjustments like that
and the more that the good habit is the
path of least resistance and the more
that the bad habit is distanced from you
and has many steps or is higher friction
the more likely you are to fall through
on the thing that you want to do and I
think this is just true about many
habits in general which is people often
say something's important to them but
then you look around the spaces where
they live and work each day and the room
is not optimized for that thing and so
the more that you can prime your
environment to make the next action easy
whether that's cooking the next meal
instead of purchasing it or whether
that's eating something healthy rather
than eating something unhealthy and so
on the more likely you are to be able to
fall through on those things and when
you have energy and time and extra
capacity maybe you make whatever CH
choice you want but when you're press
for time or you're stressed or you're
exhausted you're tired what are you
going to choose you're going to choose
the path of least resistance and so
redesigning your environment is a really
effective way to promote some of those
healthy behaviors and one of the reasons
why I love starting with environment
design is because it's something that's
very controllable it's very tangible and
often you can do it once and it'll
continue to serve you again and again so
it's sort of resetting your default if
you like as a result of this because
your environment has changed just your
your sort of easy path of behavior has
has adjusted as a as a result of
this I think that's a good way to
describe it there's a chapter in atomic
habits that's called the secret to
self-control and one of the surprising
things about a lot of the research
around self-control and willpower is
that when you look at someone and you're
like oh I just wish I had the discipline
they had or I wish I had as much
willpower as they have what a lot of the
studies have found is that these people
are not necessarily like super human
certainly there may be some variances
and willpower between people but to a
large degree the people who exhibit the
greatest willpower are the ones who are
tempted the least and so it's actually
designing an environment that tempts you
less that positions you to make good
choices by making those obvious and easy
that is the best way to increase your
willpower and that I always think is
something that's very in your control
it's funny I'm listening to this and
thinking I've got this massive tin of
nuts here which is one of the things
that at Zoe we very very Pro cuz the
science behind nuts um almost for the
vast majority of um people is incredibly
good and so I'm a big snacker it's
really effortless because it's just
sitting there and as you quite rightly
said it's a lot less effort I'm sitting
on my calls on the rest of it to do that
than to go and try and eat something
that is in fact less healthy so that
would be an example it's like it's
obvious it's right there I see it in
front of me to give an example that
pretty much everyone can resonate with
think about your smartphone so when I
I'm like everybody else when my phone is
next to me I will check it every 3
minutes just cuz it's there but I have a
little rule for myself and I can't do it
all the time but I probably do it about
70% of the time which is I leave my
phone in another room until lunch and I
have a home office and so it's only like
30 seconds away I just got to walk down
the stairs and go get it but I never go
get it and I always think that's
interesting I'm like did I want it or
not you know in the one sense I wanted
it bad enough that I would check it
every 3 minutes when it was next to me
but in another sense I never wanted it
so bad that I would work 30 seconds for
it and you'd be surprised how many
habits are kind of like that they will
curtail themselves to the desired degree
if you just introduce a little bit of
friction I've noticed that I'm that way
about beer as well if I buy a sixpack of
beer and I put it in the front of the
fridge and it's just like in the door I
can see it as soon as I open it I'll
grab one and have it with dinner just
cuz it's there but if I put it like down
at the back of the fridge it's like on
the lowest shelf and I kind of bent need
to bend all the way down to see it
sometimes I'll forget that it's there
it'll be there for two weeks or 3 weeks
I won't even remember that we have it
and uh so again just optimizing your
environment to make the good actions
obvious and the undesirable actions less
obvious or less easy to do it sounds
simple but if you can do that in a dozen
or two dozen or 50 different ways you
often find that it's much easier to
stick to the behaviors that you want to
stick to James can I ask you something a
little controversial on this uh one of
my other guests said that in fact
therefore the biggest thing that you
could do to really change your long-term
lifestyle and health was to change your
friends because they are the biggest
driver in fact of your environment and
what you do and therefore if your
friends like don't do any exercise eat
really badly all of these sorts of
things that's what you do with them
whereas you know if your friends like to
go for like walks or whatever then in
fact you're going to do this different
like does that count within your like
change your environment make it obvious
or or is that a bit too radical for you
yeah so certainly um I don't I don't
know about saying it's the biggest thing
I don't I don't even know that it's
possible to measure that or that you
could even say that you know about I
don't think he had a clinical study to
prove it to be fair I AG sure and the
and the biggest you know uh the biggest
is going to change based on the
situation the habit and all kinds of
other things but I setting that aside I
think we can say certainly it is a major
element or a large factor in driving
your habits and um it's not just your
friends though it's also just if we more
broadly think about so we've been
talking about the physical environment
if we just more broadly think about the
social environment that you are in that
is an enormous driver of your habits and
behavior we are all part of multiple
groups some of those groups are large
like what it means to be British or what
it means to be American or something
like that some of those groups are small
like what it means to be a neighbor on
your street or a member of your little
friend group or a you know a member of
the local CrossFit gym whatever it is
like those groups that we all belong to
large and small have a set of shared
expectations a set of social norms for
what you do when you're in that group
and when habits go with the grain of the
expectations of the group they're pretty
attractive and this actually leads us to
the second law that I mentioned make it
attractive so habits are really
attractive when they help you fit in
with the friends and the family and the
relationships that you have around you
um when they go against the grain of the
expectations of the group they're kind
of unattractive and so this comes back
to one of the deepest human needs that
we all have which is this desire to bond
and connect you know humans are very
social creatures and even if it's just
like your little family unit we all want
to be a part of something and so if
people have to choose between you know I
have habits that I don't really love but
I fit in I belong I'm part of something
or I have the habits that I want to have
but I'm cast out I'm ostracized I'm criticized
criticized
you might be able to do that for a day
or week or I don't know a month or two
but at some point it does not feel good
to run against the grain of all the
relationships in your life and so the
desire to belong will often overpower
the desire to improve and I think that
is one really good reason to try as best
as you can to get your Social um
environment aligned with the habits that
you want to build and I think the the
punchline is actually pretty simple the
punchline is you want to join groups
where your desired Behavior behavior is
the normal behavior that's really I
think of drinking for example as you
describe this seems like a a classic
example lots of people will be listen to
this saying like one of the things I
want to do in January is probably drink
less than I have been doing because they
will be aware of the evence it says you
know a glass of red wine might be fine
but you know more than that that isn't
and that if you're friends of the sort
of people who go drinking then there
starts to be a lot of social pressure
right and a sense of of not
participating that an example of of what
you're you're talking about James sure
there I mean there are examples like
that which are kind of like your you
know a classic kind of habits example
but it influences your behavior in ways
that you don't even realize you know
like we're talking right now I could be
wearing a bathing suit for this
conversation but that would be weird
right it would violate every expectation
we have so you know for anyone listening
uh listening on the podcast and and not
on YouTube James is not in fact wearing
a bathing suit or if he is he's got
clothes on top
so just to set your that slightly
anxious listeners at this point James so
in a sense I chose what I wore today but
only sort of right like the menu of
options was already pretty restricted
based on the social norms of what we
were going to do in the group that we're
involved in um or like you know if I
walk outside my house in the summer and
I see my neighbor mowing their lawn I
might think oh I need to cut the grass
too and you might do that for 5 or 10 or
30 years like however long you live in
the house we wish we had that level of
consistency with a lot of our other
habits and why do you do it partially
because it feels good to have a clean
lawn but mostly it feels good to have a
clean lawn because you want to be judged
by the other people in the neighborhood
for being the sloppy one and so it's the
social Norm that drives a lot of these
actions and certainly that is true with
what you eat and what you drink and I
think that's really interesting as you
were saying that I was thinking about my
own experience you know changing my diet
through Zoe over the last seven years
and some listeners have heard like one
of the things that made that most easy
was the point when my wife ended up
doing the tests and then starting the
membership and following the program and
changing her diet because suddenly
instead of being something that was a
sort of source of conflict over dinner
every night about maybe what I want to
eat why you want to eat all of those
plants and things like this suddenly
like um Justine was like all in and
actually she's got really into it now
she's cooking lots of these dinners and
I'm delighted in and eating this and so
it suddenly switched in the way I said
from it feels really attractive we're
very compatible in this and before we
were quite
incompatible um and actually there are
quite a lot of members who've talk to me
and um and feder I imagine you've heard
a lot of these stories of people like
well I managed to get my my husband or
my wife to do this as well or we did it
together and it's sort of been this
journey of change versus people who's
saying like you know what this is really
hard I'm trying to do this on my own but
like my husband and my children like
don't want to change any of this and
that makes it very difficult yeah we
know through so much Public Health
health research that Community is
crucial so actually finding a community
of like-minded individuals that have
similar goals massively increases the
likelihood of success you know to some
extent I think I what James is saying
being aware of the influence of our
social setting and the people we spend
time with can also sometimes help us to
maybe reduce the time we're spending
with some of our friends who maybe are
no longer on the same trajectory and I
think we have to be AIT a little bit
less scared of that because for example
you know friends who are was friends
with in my 20s who have a very different
lifestyle to me I think it's a lot of
listeners will maybe uh align with this
but when you have children you do Lose
Friends right CU suddenly you're not
going out on a Saturday night until like
3: in the morning you have different
priorities and that doesn't mean that
you don't love those friends anymore it
just means that they're not aligned with
the person that you're becoming anymore
and that's okay like things change and
you might see each other again later in
life but making sure that you know you
know who you want to be and what is
priority to you like what is the big why
what kind of habits do you want to
cultivate to get you to that place where
you want to be in 10 years time
sometimes that's going to have some
Discord with some people but finding
your new community that has similar
goals and similar principles can really
help to mitigate any sort of changes in
friendships and and
communities James would you tell us
about the third one make it
easy sure so one of the most common
challenges with building new habits is
the people bite off more than they can
chew you know they they decide to try to
do too much and this is I I have made
this mistake more times than I can count
so you know it is something that uh is
very natural to do I think particularly
for ambitious people there's kind of
this conversation in their head where
they sit down and they start thinking
about the changes they're going to make
and then the Assumption in the back of
their mind even if they don't state it
explicitly is man you know like what
what could I do if I really got going
like what would Peak Performance look
like for me you know if I I was like
really on my game and like living my
best days if I really had my habits
dialed in what could I achieve and I
think when you're in that mindset which
is great it's great to be hopeful and
dream about where you could go it's also
really easy to end up doing too much oh
well I'm going to change five six seven
habits at the same time and rather than
asking yourself what could I do on my
best day I actually think the place to
start is by asking what can I stick to
even on the bad days and that becomes
your Baseline that becomes the new habit
that you try to get established and once
you establish that then you can start to
feel successful and feel like you're
moving forward you gain some progress
and a feeling of momentum and then great
now you're showing up each day and
there's all kinds of things that you can
do from there and so does that mean your
guidance is in general don't try and
like make this massive change all at
once but think about this more as a
series of like smaller habit changes
step by step and is that and is that in
fact what the sort of the science shows
is more successful so I I think there
let me give you two examples that'll
probably help clarify so the first one
this is just a really simple tactic I
think a very actionable thing that you
can use for building better habits I
call it the two-minute Rule and it just
says take whatever habit you're trying
to build and you scale it down to
something that takes 2 minutes or less
to do so read 30 books a year becomes
read one page or do yoga four days a
week becomes take out my yoga mat now
sometimes people resist that a little
bit because they're like okay buddy you
know I know the real goal is just to
take my yoga mat out I know I'm actually
trying to do the workout so this is some
kind of trick and I know it's a trick
then why would I fall for it basically
but I have this reader his name is Mitch
I mentioned him in atomic abits he lost
over 100 pounds so what is that 40 50
kilos and um he kept it off for more
than a decade and he had this strange
little rule for himself where he first
started going to the gym for the first
like 6 weeks he wasn't allowed to stay
for longer than 5 minutes so he would
get in the car drive to the gym get out
do half an exercise get back in the car
drive home and it sounds ridiculous you
know it sounds silly it's obviously it's
not going to get the guy the results
that he wants but what you realize is
that he was mastering the art of showing
up you know he was becoming the type of
person that went to the gym four days a
week even if it was only for 5 minutes
and this is a pretty deep truth about
habits which is that a habit must be
established before it can be improved
you know it has to become the standard
in your life before you can scale it up
and turn it into something more you need
to standardize before you optimize and
so the two-minute rule kind of helps
push back against that perfectionist
tendency that we have sometimes or
against that tendency to try to do too
much and encourages you to master the
artst showing up I'm reminded of that
quote from Ed Latimore where he says the
heaviest weight at the gym is the front
door like there are a lot of things in
life that are like that you know the
hardest step is the first one and the
two-minute rule kind of helps you open
the front door it helps you get started
I love that James can I just ask about
the 28 day the 28 days cuz you laughed
at that at the beginning but I was still
thinking oh so you need to do that for
28 days or is that maybe 6 weeks so uh
cuz you just talked about six weeks I
think everyone was like well okay but
come on how many times do I have to do
this for it to somehow start to become a
habit sure so this is a very common
question how many days does it take to
become a habit and so and you'll hear 21
days 28 days 30 days 90 days I don't
know there's all kinds of stuff that
people say um the answer is it depends
um there was a study that shows that on
average it takes about 66 days to build
a habit so that's a common number you'll
see floating around now people science
says it takes 66 days but if you
actually read the study the range is
quite wide so something pretty easy like
drinking a glass of water might only
take a couple weeks um something more
difficult like going for a run after
work every day might take seven or eight
or nine months and even that I don't
think tells the story very cleanly
because you can imagine one person who
wants to build the habit of going for a
run after work who lives with people who
nobody is working out and nobody's
interested in that and it kind of goes
against the friction of that group and
then another person who lives with all
athletes that are excited about working
out and they just need to join their
friends to do it obviously these are two
different circumstances and so it's
going to depend but I think the real
answer the honest answer to how long
does it take to build a habit is forever
because if you stop doing it it's no
longer a habit and what I'm trying to
get people to realize with that answer
is that we often think about our habits
as this Finish Line to be crossed but
they're not a Finish Line to be crossed
it's a lifestyle to be lived so it's not
like do this for 30 days and then you'll
be healthy and you won't have to worry
about it anymore it's much more along
the lines of what is the kind of Life
Style what is the type of identity that
you're hoping to build and how can this
become your new normal and I think when
you start to shift your perspective in
that way you can see the importance of
choosing a small change a
non-threatening change um something that
feels sustainable and is going to last
for the long term I think alongside that
though we have to be kind to ourselves
and that if you forget to do the thing
once it doesn't mean you've broken that
habit so I really resonated what you
said earlier James where people come to
resolutions in New Year and they take on
a huge challenge or like six different
things so like I'm going to start
running I'm going to go vegan um I'm
going to write a letter every day and
you know they take really lots of
changes all at once and I think
when we scale it back and make it
realistic and make sure it resonates
with who we want to be we also have to
be mindful that if you just don't make
it to the gym one of the days you
planning to go or if you are trying to
reduce how much alcohol you drink for
example and you end up having an extra
glass at a party it doesn't mean you've
broken that habit formation you know
8020 rule where 80% of the time you're
able to achieve the things that you set
out to do and then you leave 20% of the
time for life to happen essentially and
and unplanned things and as long as
you're on track 80% of the time we you
know the long-term benefits of what
you're doing will show themselves would
you say that with habit formation it's a
bit stricter or do you think that it's
again about the overall pattern as
opposed to daily daily position it's a
fantastic point that you make and a
crucial thing to remember that you know
missing once does not ruin you and I
feel like it's almost even there's an
extra layer that gets thrown on top of
all this which is people Fall Off Track
they they do something for you know 12
days and then on the 13th day they miss
or they do something for a month really
consistently and then in the second
month they start to fall off course and
it's even worse than just missing they a
lot of the time they start assigning
there's like self-worth to it oh I knew
I was going to fail at that oh you know
oh this always happens to me I try to
start something and then I fall off
track um and my responsib is like we
don't need to turn it into that you know
like it doesn't need to be this
assignment of your selfworth it can just
be that uh one day was different than
what you had planned and now we can show
up again the next day and try to get
back on course and what you you know
realize if you zoom out a little bit is
that it is impossible to go through your
entire life and to not have days where
you miss and so if you are going to be
missing at some point one of the most
important things to have is a plan for
getting back on track quickly if the
reclaiming of a habit is fast the
breaking of it doesn't matter that much
and I think we all have felt that at
different times in life you know it's
not really the first mistake that ruins
you it's the spiral of repeated mistakes
that follows it's letting slipping up
become like a new three-month pattern
that's the real problem but if you get
back on track the next time then the
mistake doesn't actually mean much at
all and so one of my favorite mantras
for building better habits is never miss
twice maybe you've been following a new
diet for 8 days and then the ninth day
you binge to Pizza well you know wish
that hadn't happened but never missed
twice let me make sure the next meal is
a healthy one or in my Cas Italian
there's nothing wrong with
pizza in my case The Habit that kind of
launched my career was that I wrote a
new article every Monday and Thursday
and I did that for the first three years
and if I missed on Monday well you know
wish that hadn't happened but never miss
twice let's make sure that I get one out
on Thursday and again if the reclaiming
of the Habit is fast the breaking isn't
that big of a deal it's really it
reminds me of something we we talk a lot
about within Zoe which is that no food
is off limits so clearly it's something
foods are better for you some food is
more like a treat it's not creating lots
of you know healthy things for you but
but nothing is off limits and I think
once because if you start to think about
it like that then he it's like well this
is all a bit miserable right one should
also be able to enjoy one's life but
also um I think you get to this point
where you say well I sort of failed
right so then you break yourself and you
give up and you you sort of go into that
spiral now I would like to cover the
last one before I'm so slow and we run
out of time make it satisfying what does
that mean
so it's mostly about feeling good in
some way you know pretty much there are
all kinds of behaviors in life and some
behaviors are positive and make you feel
good some behaviors are just kind of
neutral and don't really mean a whole
lot and some things have a consequence
you touch a hot stove and you burn your
hand once you're like oh I want to avoid
that for the rest of my life um but if a
behavior is not rewarding in some way if
it doesn't have some positive emotion
associated with it it's really hard for
it to become a habit because you're
asking yourself to repeat something that
brain is like well why would I remember
this it didn't really get me very much
and so you need some positive emotional
experience with it you need to feel good
about yourself in some way um in order
to remember it and come back to it in
the future I think actually there was
something that was mentioned earlier um
Jonathan about like a lot of these Foods
we eat if you zoom out just a little bit
an hour or a day later you actually feel
terrible after eating them and I think
that's an interesting thing to realize
with many habits is that it's often
worth it if you want a habit to be
satisfying to to find a different way to
measure it you know a lot of people when
they talk about food the only thing they
talk about is how it tastes and really
what they mean is how it tastes
immediately that's like their only
measure for whether something is
enjoyable or not but if you can find a
different way to measure the experience
um and I don't even mean measure in like
a technical sense I just mean a quality
of it that you like um you know like you
could say well I really like eating this
food and it's because of how my body
feels an hour later or it's because of
how much energy I have in the afternoon
or some other I mean it's because of how
well I sleep at night and if you can
find some other aspect of the experience
that feels enjoyable to you then you can
start to draw this connection between
the Habit that you want to build and
what is pleasurable about it and um that
is by changing the way that you measure
the experience you often give yourself a
chance to find something enjoyable about
the thing that you're trying to build
James I love that I want to ask you one
last question shifting topics a bit but
it just came up a lot from all of our
listeners and that was a question about
approaches that we could use with our
children as we think about healthy food
and I think everyone listening to this
knows this is a really hard thing to do
there's no straightforward answer um uh
you know and it's something that I
struggle with a lot but I also know you
know that the science says that what my
children need is quite important um is
there anything that you can uh share out
of you know everything you've been
studying here that might be relevant as
we think about our kids sure so let me
give you three quick things so first
thing is model the behavior that you
want to see to ask somebody else to do
something and then to not do it yourself
like your kids are almost always going
to imitate your behavior more than they
listen to your words and so if you want
them to act a certain way then you
should try to set the standard as well people
people
often play to the standard that you set
not the one that you request and so like
how can you showcase that second thing
is you cannot have a human that is
outside of an environment and so in many
cases your kids and yourself you share
share an environment together uh in your
home and so how can you design that
environment to optimize for the things
that you want so we talked about that a
lot earlier but all of those things the
kitchen is not just a space that you
walk into it's also a space that they
walk into and so how can you structure
that in a way that promotes and makes
the good habits easy and obvious and
then the third and final thing which is
something we haven't talked about yet
and this is not just for your kids but
also for yourself I really think it's
worth asking yourself or asking them or
thinking about this for them what would
this look like if it was fun and in a
lot of ways I actually feel like this is
maybe one of the biggest hurdles to
cross when you're getting ready to start
a new habit is to figure out the version
of it that works best for you you know
we started by talking about New Year's
resolutions I think a lot of people are
going to the gym in January just because
they feel like they should go to the gym
or Society wants them to go to the gym
not because they actually want to do it
but we could come up with a really long
list of you know Ways to Live an active
lifestyle rock climb kayak do yoga go
for a run like that you should list
those out and then pick the one that
makes the most sense for you um another
example uh related to eat healthy eating
and perhaps to kids let's say you want
to get your kids to eat more greens or
eat more salads I just talked to a woman
who she wanted to get in the habit of
making a salad for lunch every day and
when she started she At first she had
this idea in her mind that it had to be
like pure and perfect that it wasn't if
it wasn't like a perfectly healthy salad
then it wasn't worth it for her to do it
and then she shifted to this idea of
like what would it be like if it was fun
and so she tried to make each salad bowl
like a party and she would put little
toppings on it and she even some days
she would even like crumble up potato
chips and put them on or whatever but it
made the Habit enjoyable and then once
she got to the point where she was
actually having a salad 90% of the days
there are all kinds of ways to improve
that and to you know optimize it because
she's actually showing up and eating it
every day and so I think you can take a
SIM SAR sort of approach whether it's
with yourself or with your kids and
whether it's an eating habit or
something else what would it look like
if this was fun let's start there get
the Habit established and then we can
optimize and improve it from there James
I I love that so much I have many more
questions but we're we're definitely
hitting time I would like to do a quick
summary which is something we always do
here and please um both of you keep me
honest if I've got any of it wrong so we
started by just saying like why is
changing food so hard um and uh I think
there were two parts of this one is just
like uh what we're talking about which
is all habits are hard in part because
we focus too much on like what the end
result is like I want to be healthier
you know I want to look better on Less
on the type of person that I want to be
as I show up every day and James I think
you gave this a great example of like if
I decide I'm the sort of person who
doesn't want to miss workouts then like
every day if I just turn up to the gym
I've already modeled that person but of
course if I turn up to the gym I'm going
to do some exercise I'm sort of on the
path and so I guess the same thing is
about like I want to be the sort of
person who is eating food that is better
for my microbiome it's going to get me
to the point where I'm actually going to
be much healthier and and all the rest
of these things and then the second
thing we talked about is our food
environment is really difficult so this
is not an easy thing you're surrounded
by Foods where super smart uh scientists
food Architects have been designing this
for decades to make you want to eat more
to design the food so it tastes yummy
but doesn't fill you up and then there's
all this new science around Ultra
processed food that suggests this is
actually changing your microbiome it may
be affecting your brain so this is like
literally trying to um you know fight
against some very real things so you
need all the tools you can have but
James you have this wonderful guide your
four laws so these are our tools to uh
to try and get started on the on the
positive direction um your first is make
it obvious and I think the heart as I
understand it is changing your
environment so that somehow you're
you're def faulting into the right
direction and so I think examples you
gave was you know in your kitchen you
know you're having your nuts you're having your your fruit and uh as opposed
having your your fruit and uh as opposed to maybe um you know default unhealthy
to maybe um you know default unhealthy choices um the second thing is make it
choices um the second thing is make it attractive and interestingly you said
attractive and interestingly you said your social environment is a very big
your social environment is a very big part of this so human beings really want
part of this so human beings really want to fit into the environment they're
to fit into the environment they're they're with so if your social
they're with so if your social environment your friends all these sorts
environment your friends all these sorts of things actually supporting your
of things actually supporting your habits that becomes very easy if your
habits that becomes very easy if your social environment is really at odds
social environment is really at odds with the change you're trying to make
with the change you're trying to make that's that's very difficult um the
that's that's very difficult um the third thing you said is make it easy and
third thing you said is make it easy and I think you both talked about lots of
I think you both talked about lots of people trying to do too much so if
people trying to do too much so if you're listening to this in January you
you're listening to this in January you may have created this crazy list of
may have created this crazy list of goals just like you know somebody might
goals just like you know somebody might start Zoey and want to just you know go
start Zoey and want to just you know go from you know a diet that in in our
from you know a diet that in in our wording might score 45 and jump straight
wording might score 45 and jump straight to 75 and it's just not realistic you've
to 75 and it's just not realistic you've got to go go step by step uh and James I
got to go go step by step uh and James I think you mentioned a two-minute roll so
think you mentioned a two-minute roll so you said if you could scale that all
you said if you could scale that all down to something you can achieve in 2
down to something you can achieve in 2 minutes that might be a lot easier and
minutes that might be a lot easier and again you have this beautiful example
again you have this beautiful example take out the yoga mat and as you said
take out the yoga mat and as you said presumably once you take the yoga mat
presumably once you take the yoga mat out you probably don't just roll it up
out you probably don't just roll it up and put it away again but like success
and put it away again but like success is just that first step so
is just that first step so um but the associated part of it is
um but the associated part of it is you've just got to keep doing it forever
you've just got to keep doing it forever so you can't just do the two-minute rule
so you can't just do the two-minute rule do this forever like all of these habits
do this forever like all of these habits are really about lifetime habits um and
are really about lifetime habits um and then the fourth the fourth rule was make
then the fourth the fourth rule was make it satisfying so how do you get some
it satisfying so how do you get some reward because you were saying our brain
reward because you were saying our brain is wired to respond to reward so if
is wired to respond to reward so if there's nothing positive about these
there's nothing positive about these habits it's very hard to get anything
habits it's very hard to get anything and so I think you're sort of saying can
and so I think you're sort of saying can you reframe what's going on so for
you reframe what's going on so for example as you're thinking about food
example as you're thinking about food think less oh it's so sweet and sugary
think less oh it's so sweet and sugary in the second I've got it and more like
in the second I've got it and more like actually how do I feel two hours later
actually how do I feel two hours later because actually the reality for most of
because actually the reality for most of these Foods is you feel terrible 2 hours
these Foods is you feel terrible 2 hours later and if you were to start to think
later and if you were to start to think about it in that and you've Chang
about it in that and you've Chang changed your diet you might be shocked
changed your diet you might be shocked how within just a few weeks it's
how within just a few weeks it's Shifting the way that you're you're
Shifting the way that you're you're feeling um and then I think you
feeling um and then I think you said if I would to paraphrase give
said if I would to paraphrase give yourself a break like if you break your
yourself a break like if you break your habit it's not the end of the world
habit it's not the end of the world don't give up forever missing once
don't give up forever missing once doesn't ruin you but try and get back on
doesn't ruin you but try and get back on track and James you're quite tough
track and James you're quite tough you're like never miss twice so like
you're like never miss twice so like once you fail get straight back
once you fail get straight back on um but I guess if you have missed
on um but I guess if you have missed twice still you can still do it the next
twice still you can still do it the next day right so there is always it's not
day right so there is always it's not like it's all over um and then finally
like it's all over um and then finally we asked about kids uh which I think
we asked about kids uh which I think might be a whole podcast if I can tempt
might be a whole podcast if I can tempt you back because it's such an important
you back because it's such an important topic um which I'd love to do but but I
topic um which I'd love to do but but I think the three rules you said here is
think the three rules you said here is model the behavior you want to see right
model the behavior you want to see right so if your kids don't see you doing it
so if your kids don't see you doing it why will they do it secondly again think
why will they do it secondly again think back to the environment so what's in the
back to the environment so what's in the kitchen for them what are they
kitchen for them what are they surrounded by and then and then thirdly
surrounded by and then and then thirdly what would this look like if it was fun
what would this look like if it was fun beautiful summer you guys don't need me
beautiful summer you guys don't need me just run that that we we definitely do
just run that that we we definitely do need you James thank you so much I
need you James thank you so much I really enjoyed it and I would definitely
really enjoyed it and I would definitely like to tempt you back for the you know
like to tempt you back for the you know what do we do with our children which I
what do we do with our children which I think if there's other listeners like
think if there's other listeners like there this is the thing that makes me
there this is the thing that makes me consciously uh frequently a bit anxious
consciously uh frequently a bit anxious so uh I I need that well this has been
so uh I I need that well this has been great thank you both so much appreciate
great thank you both so much appreciate the opportunity to uh chat and uh learn
the opportunity to uh chat and uh learn from both of you and uh it was a lovely
from both of you and uh it was a lovely conversation I appreciate it on today's
conversation I appreciate it on today's episode episode we've learned four great
episode episode we've learned four great rules to change our habits to improve
rules to change our habits to improve the way that we eat and I hope that
the way that we eat and I hope that armed with this knowledge you feel that
armed with this knowledge you feel that you're in a great place to make positive
you're in a great place to make positive changes now if you want to take things
changes now if you want to take things further and get personal support and
further and get personal support and advice on how to improve your diet and
advice on how to improve your diet and eat the right foods for your body then
eat the right foods for your body then you might want to consider becoming a
you might want to consider becoming a Zoe member Zoe can help you to feel
Zoe member Zoe can help you to feel better now and live healthier in the
better now and live healthier in the years to come why not give it a try head
years to come why not give it a try head to zoe.com /p podcast now to learn more
to zoe.com /p podcast now to learn more and get 10% off your
and get 10% off your membership as always I'm your host
membership as always I'm your host Jonathan wolf Zoe science and nutrition
Jonathan wolf Zoe science and nutrition is produced by yellow huin Martin
is produced by yellow huin Martin Richard Willen and Tilly fford the Zoe
Richard Willen and Tilly fford the Zoe science and nutrition podcast is not
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