0:00 hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey Mishlove
0:02 today we're going to be examining the
0:04 concept of enlightenment why is it that
0:07 people throughout the world and almost
0:09 every religious tradition and cultural
0:11 tradition pursue the notion of
0:13 enlightenment what is enlightenment is
0:15 there such a thing is it possible to
0:17 attain enlightenment with me today is
0:20 mr. ug Krishnamurti a world traveler and
0:24 author of mind as a myth and the
0:26 mystique of enlightenment welcome you
0:28 Jing here you know people often have
0:31 referred to you as an enlightened being
0:33 and I know you're very uncomfortable
0:34 with with that and in fact you told me
0:37 earlier you're uncomfortable with the
0:38 concept of being at all yes you see the
0:41 the question arises only in relationship
0:44 it's becoming and enlightenment is also
0:48 becoming easy so I would go one step
0:52 further and say that the human mind if I
0:56 may use that word quote and unquote is
0:58 interested only in sensual activity you
1:03 know the the living organism or the
1:05 human body whatever you want to call it
1:07 is only responding to the stimuli it is
1:11 not interested in pleasure at all see
1:14 the moment you use thought to experience
1:18 anything in terms of pleasure it becomes
1:21 a pain for this body and yet we pursue
1:24 sensuality and yet find only pain in it
1:27 but we love pain in other words we love
1:31 we enjoy pain and call it pleasure you
1:34 see the human body is not interested in
1:39 pleasure of any kind it is only
1:42 interested in maintaining the
1:44 sensitivity of the nervous system and
1:46 the sensitivity of the functioning of
1:48 the body so the moment you say a
1:50 particular sensation is a pleasurable
1:53 sensation the demand to make it lost
1:56 longer goes with it so then the demand
1:59 to make the pleasure
2:01 lost longer turns what we call pressure
2:04 into pain and that's a painful sensation
2:06 to the body the body is trying to be rid
2:08 of the pleasurable sensation and what we
2:11 are stuck with is pain it almost sounds
2:14 as if the greater the pleasure then the
2:16 greater the pain must be we have
2:18 introduced the degree into that what is
2:20 called pleasure and see because the
2:22 thought is always interest rate in more
2:25 and more of something and less than less
2:27 than the other I am NOT saying anything
2:28 against a pleasure see the moment you
2:31 use thought as an instrument to have
2:35 pleasure we have there created a problem
2:38 since man has realized since I don't
2:41 like to use the word man or a human
2:44 being or in general terms to the average
2:47 man say that man is you and I sitting
2:50 here so since this demand for permanent
2:58 happiness is something which cannot be
3:00 achieved through anything any thinking
3:04 that is open to us we have projected and
3:08 created what is called enlightenment
3:10 God's self-realization calling by
3:13 whatever name you like so that is the
3:15 ultimate pleasure there are stories out
3:17 of India you've probably heard of great
3:20 Saints who are supposedly in states of
3:22 Perpetual sexual orgasm
3:24 that is what these gurus are selling in
3:27 the marketplace today
3:29 you see even sex is something that the
3:35 body does not care for it's a painful
3:38 thing and that is necessary for only one
3:41 purpose to reproduce one line then the
3:43 living organism is interested only to
3:45 things it's a survival and then is the
3:48 reproduction so when once the thought is
3:52 involved in turning sex into pressure we
3:55 have created a problem it is the same
3:58 thought that makes you feel that you see
4:01 the pleasure you see can be extended
4:05 into one of degree in two and longer and
4:09 longer time and then you see keep it
4:11 going and so it is more painful to this
4:13 body
4:14 you almost sound Victorian in your
4:16 approach here I'm not I'm not Victoria
4:19 Lee sex is it totally unrelated to the
4:22 question of enlightenment you see
4:23 whether it has become fashionable these
4:26 days for all these people to market sex
4:28 as the means or the stepping stones to
4:32 enlightenment but actually and factually
4:35 the sex is totally unrelated to what is
4:38 called enlightenment whether you deny
4:40 yourself sex or indulgence sex it is of
4:43 no importance to what you are searching
4:46 for but in a culture where you see the
4:49 denial of sex is maintained as a cynic
4:52 poem or an essential thing for your
4:55 spiritual goal unfortunately the the
4:59 girls in the marketplace who are selling
5:02 that enlightenment invented this thing
5:05 called is the tantric experience and
5:07 used that as a means to achieve your
5:10 spiritual goals right is you the tantric
5:12 here or abstinence there and what you're
5:14 saying what are the same they are
5:15 totally unrelated to the question of
5:17 enlightenment when once you see the
5:20 question of enlightenment or the demand
5:23 for an Enlightenment is freed from sex
5:27 totally either as a means to eat or the
5:29 denial of it as a main street we can
5:32 look at it in a different way and ask
5:34 the question is there any such thing as
5:37 enlightenment at all we have accepted
5:39 taken for granted that there is such a
5:42 thing as enlightenment but we never
5:44 questioned that because when once you
5:46 question the whole idea of enlightenment
5:49 or is reportedly concept of
5:52 enlightenment we are questioning the
5:54 teachers we have talked about it and we
5:58 have invested our tremendous fatal them
6:00 so the the sentiment comes into the
6:03 picture and we accept that as a gospel
6:06 truth well yes we have this notion of
6:08 the great sages of antiquity in many
6:11 different cultures have written and
6:13 talked about higher states of
6:14 consciousness and at least lighten them
6:16 and that is true but I am questioning
6:18 the very consciousness itself is there
6:21 any such thing as consciousness that is
6:23 my question so you become conscious of
6:27 yourself and the world around you only
6:31 through the help of the knowledge that
6:34 is given to us by these so-called sages
6:37 saints and saviors of mankind so is it
6:40 possible for you to be conscious of
6:42 anything without the help of that
6:44 knowledge so we have the question the
6:48 very thing that we have taken for
6:50 granted we are very naive and accept it
6:53 and then you see spend a whole lifetime
6:56 in search of whatever you want to have
6:59 it enlightenment God realization
7:01 self-realization what in other words you
7:04 seems as if there's a paradox here
7:06 because on the one hand our
7:07 consciousness it seems as if it leads us
7:09 to question the tradition the so-called
7:12 truths that are handed down to us and
7:14 you're saying but without that tradition
7:15 without those truths we would have no
7:17 consciousness you know that is part of
7:19 the structure of our thinking mmm-hmm
7:21 you see unfortunately the thought has
7:24 divided itself into two and created you
7:27 see this duality or the neurotic
7:30 situation for us the whole culture
7:32 teaches us that you should not compete
7:35 competition is to be eschewing
7:38 ambition is just something which you
7:40 should not you see have spiritual
7:44 teachings tend to say this is spiritual
7:46 teachings he is always I mean exactly
7:49 you know that except in capitalism there
7:51 is this sense of demand that you should
7:54 be free from ambition you should be free
7:55 from greed you should be free from this
7:58 that and the other but at the same time
8:00 ambition is absolutely necessary for
8:03 survival in the society in which we are
8:06 functioning today so it is that that has
8:09 created the neurotic situation for us we
8:11 want to pleasure and at the same time we
8:14 know that the pressure is giving us pain
8:18 so the demand for permanence is the
8:22 basic demand of thought is it is
8:24 interested in in permanence
8:27 the permanence not of this living
8:30 organism but the permanence of the
8:33 continuity of thought so the body knows
8:36 in a way that it is permanent you see
8:40 not in the sense in which we know that
8:42 this is permanent that is not permanent
8:44 but that knowledge is of a peculiar kind
8:47 that it knows it is permanent so it is
8:50 not interested in the idea that this is
8:54 coming to an end one day see so the the
8:58 one that is involved in this pressure
9:01 moment is the one that is asking the
9:04 question what will happen to this living
9:06 organism when it dies you see for the
9:09 body there is no such thing as death at
9:12 all now because it has no way of
9:16 experiencing the fact that it is alive
9:19 in this moment and that it is dead after
9:21 60 70 80 or hundred years at all are you
9:25 saying then that the body doesn't die
9:29 but what about the spirit that is the
9:33 belief this we the self the soul the
9:38 spirit and whatever you want to call it
9:42 is invented by thought and it is the
9:45 thought that is responsible for
9:49 experiencing this what we call thought
9:53 because what you call self spirit or
9:56 soul or whatever you want to call I
9:58 don't want to indulge in the frivolity
10:00 of the root meaning of the words
10:03 sincerely you know the Latin word spirit
10:06 is a Latin word they have to do with
10:08 breathing it generally it means
10:09 breathing so you have observed UCF but
10:13 an individual stop for breathing and
10:15 that condition you describe it as depth
10:19 so the fact that you see the breathing
10:22 stop that you want to know if there is
10:25 anything that will continue after death
10:27 you see it is that that is interested in
10:29 demanding to know what will survive this
10:33 condition of the body which is called
10:35 death
10:36 I mean I would tend to think that my
10:38 body will not survive my body will decay
10:40 but perhaps my ability to experience at
10:43 some level will survive but can you
10:45 experience your body while you are
10:48 living now see one wants to know
10:51 anything about death he has to find out
10:55 what is it that is there now and not
10:58 wait until what we call the death takes
11:01 place so you do you have any way of
11:04 experiencing the fact that you are alive
11:06 today I say no I see the doctor comes
11:10 and examines you and tells you that this
11:13 is your blood pressure this is the
11:14 temperature for your body your heart is
11:17 breathing your blood races so on and so
11:19 forth so you are alive so you are trying
11:23 to use that knowledge and experience
11:26 what you call a living being but without
11:31 the help of that knowledge which is
11:33 passed on to us by observation of all
11:36 these doctors and experience and tell
11:40 yourself that you are a living being so
11:42 when once you are freed from me the
11:45 knowledge you have no way of
11:47 experiencing that you are alive today
11:49 and there is no question of experiencing
11:51 when you are today well Descartes a
11:55 great Western philosopher said I think
11:57 therefore I am and you seem to be
11:59 suggesting that thinking is the opposite
12:02 of of living I think that Descartes I
12:06 studied the Western philosophy and he
12:10 asked the wrong question and answered it
12:13 tonight
12:13 in a very funny way we think I think
12:16 therefore I am but he never asked the
12:19 question which you should have asked the
12:21 way the Indian philosophers built if you
12:25 don't think
12:27 now are you there uh-huh
12:29 so the the basic question which we have
12:32 to ask is what is thinking and why do we
12:37 think at all if you don't think there is
12:40 still the question there you see the
12:43 question is born out of the assumption
12:45 that there is something there and that
12:50 is why he has come out with this
12:51 statement I think therefore I am if you
12:53 don't think where is that I am well
12:57 isn't it true that when we talk of
13:00 enlightenment the great sages of India
13:02 have said when you stop thinking you can
13:05 enter into this vast ocean of bliss and
13:07 that's enlightenment the Blessed seizes
13:11 the Bliss or whatever you want to call
13:14 it is essential pleasure that we are
13:17 indulgent in they have experience with
13:20 some extraordinary moment which he
13:22 described it as a bliss and tried to
13:25 share it with us and that created the
13:28 problem of us all trying to experience
13:31 the same thing so that is the way the
13:33 knowledge is passed on from generation
13:35 to generation that is the way you are
13:37 also experiencing things without
13:39 knowledge you have no way of
13:42 experiencing anything at all and when
13:45 once you experience that experience this
13:48 strengthens and fortifies the knowledge
13:50 so this vicious circle goes on and on
13:54 and on and on and that structure has no
13:57 way of breaking through that we see
14:00 vicious circle so we accept that
14:02 knowledge is necessary for us to
14:04 experience and the experience
14:06 strengthens the knowledge so do we
14:10 really want you see to find out
14:14 or demand the way out of it you see
14:17 mm-hmm how is there a way out and there
14:21 is no way out because the question is
14:24 posed by the thought and by asking this
14:29 question they thought knows that it has
14:32 no answer so that is the only way it can
14:36 maintain its continuity
14:37 they say the thought has invented time
14:40 the thought has invented what is called
14:43 space without the help of the knowledge
14:46 we have of space and the knowledge we
14:48 have of time there is no time there is
14:51 no space the scientists may talk and say
14:54 anything they like but they are also
14:56 saying that there is no such thing as a
14:59 time there is no such thing as a space
15:01 there is no such thing as matter but
15:05 what is called space-time continuum is
15:08 there a space I question that is there a
15:10 time the moment we thought is born the
15:14 time is there so it is that that has
15:17 invented what is called is really
15:19 timeless and pursuing that timeless and
15:23 it knows that it has no way of putting
15:26 itself in a timeless state because the
15:29 thought has to be absent in a so called
15:32 timeless state it is an invention of the
15:34 time to perpetuate itself within the
15:37 field of time well it sounds like we're
15:40 trapped we are trapped for in the very
15:42 demand to get out of the trap is reality
15:46 problem
15:47 so there is no answer to that at all
15:50 well are you suggesting then that in the
15:52 history of humankind there they've never
15:55 been enlightened persons no I'm not for
15:58 a moment is saying that there is no such
16:01 thing as an enlightened being we have
16:03 plenty of them
16:05 but I questioned the very the demand to
16:12 be enlightened he as I said at the very
16:14 beginning to me there is no such thing
16:18 as enlightenment at all you see the
16:21 enlightenment is in the future as I said
16:24 a while ago it is the time that has
16:26 invented the thing in the future the
16:30 future is always it puts the
16:31 Enlightenment there so the Enlightenment
16:34 is part of the knowledge that is passed
16:36 on to us from these great teachers who
16:39 claim to be enlightened people and it is
16:42 the past that is in operation here
16:44 projecting into your future a thing
16:47 called enlightenment so first of all is
16:51 there any such thing as the present I
16:54 say there is no such thing as present
16:56 there is no such thing as now there is
16:59 no such thing as the moment here because
17:04 if we say this is the moment this is the
17:07 present this is the now you have already
17:09 brought into this picture the past in
17:13 the past time is not enlightened so I am
17:15 going to be enlightened tomorrow but
17:17 what about now so am i enlightened or I
17:22 am am i not enlightened what is it that
17:24 tells me that I am enlightened that I am
17:26 NOT enlightened that I am free and not
17:29 free it is the knowledge that tells me
17:32 that I am not free that I am NOT
17:35 enlightened so if you are not
17:37 enlightened now you are going to be
17:38 enlightened it tomorrow I don't know if
17:41 I make well if there's a paradox here
17:42 somehow because it I guess it strikes me
17:45 that if one is really enlightened is
17:47 there's a transcending of space and time
17:49 so that if one is enlightened it's
17:51 always there that assuming for a moment
17:55 that there is an enlightened being yes
17:57 he has no way of telling himself that he
18:00 is an enlightened man and there is no
18:03 question of his trying to enlighten
18:05 others I mean as soon as I say I am
18:07 enlightened I've already come back the
18:09 knowledge about enlightenment passed on
18:12 to us from generations tells you that
18:15 you are an enlightened man you see so
18:18 then naturally you want to enlighten
18:20 others so it is a petty little
18:22 experience which has become possible for
18:24 me through the help of this thought so
18:28 what I experienced in call and
18:30 enlightenment is a thought induced
18:32 experience and not really an
18:34 Enlightenment at all you mean every
18:37 description of enlightenment is
18:39 essentially an illusion it's why are we
18:44 concerned about enlightenment at all
18:46 well it seems like a way out yeah what
18:49 else is there to do there the way out PC
18:52 so you you you are putting off the
18:55 problem to your future date what I am
18:58 suggesting is that there are no problems
19:01 at all you see what we are stuck with
19:05 easy solutions offered to us by the
19:09 people who you think and I think are in
19:12 the know of things that they have the
19:14 right solutions for the problems but
19:16 those solutions have not helped us to
19:19 resolve our problems but somehow we are
19:23 caught up in this field of time and time
19:26 is a hope you see it tells us that by
19:29 repeating the same thing over and over
19:31 again you will be able to solve this
19:35 problem so we these solutions have not
19:38 helped us to solve the problems at all
19:40 we are looking here and there and
19:43 everywhere to find out somebody who can
19:45 offer us another solution to solve our
19:47 problems but what one who is interested
19:51 to resolve the problem
19:53 must be ready to brush aside you see all
19:56 the solutions offered by the Saints the
20:00 sages and saviours of mankind in the
20:02 past and in the present and yet to be
20:04 involved in other words to truly be in
20:08 free to truly be enlightened one has to
20:10 give up every concept of enlightenment
20:12 or every notion of this tradition that
20:15 we've inherited you you are talking as
20:17 if the concept and you are two different
20:21 things
20:22 the the demand for enlightenment and you
20:26 are two different things so there is no
20:29 way you can separate yourself from the
20:32 concepts and but you just said that's
20:38 essential to do that is essential to do
20:42 is is a manner of speaking this is a way
20:45 of putting things it's essential when
20:47 you're impossible at the same time you
20:49 are not ready to come to terms that
20:52 there is no problem here and that you
20:55 are stuck with all the solutions offered
20:58 to us by those in room we have absolute
21:01 confidence faith interest and yet they
21:03 don't work the instrument which we are
21:07 using is the one that is born out of
21:10 hope this is what you are today is the
21:14 totality of all your thoughts feelings
21:17 and experiences that instrument is the
21:20 only instrument we have and it is a very
21:23 powerful instrument that instrument has
21:25 helped us to achieve whatever we have
21:28 achieved so far today so we are not
21:31 ready to discard that instrument and at
21:34 the same time we know that understanding
21:38 through the help of that instrument has
21:41 not helped us to resolve our problems at
21:43 all and yet we have not given up our
21:46 confidence tremendous faith in the
21:49 instrument which we have been using to
21:50 achieve our results
21:52 so that is really the crux of the
21:54 problem so when once the understanding
21:57 dawns on you that that is not the
22:00 instrument which will help you to
22:02 understand and solve your problems and
22:04 that there is no other instrument the
22:07 demand to solve the problems ceases and
22:11 instantly so there is no such thing as
22:16 understanding at all how I stumbled into
22:20 this is something which I have no way of
22:24 knowing which is somehow it dawned on me
22:27 that the intellect which I have
22:31 developed through sharpening it you see
22:34 using it has no way of understanding
22:39 anything and at the same time the
22:43 tremendous faith in that instrument is
22:45 salinity see that that is the only
22:47 instrument I do not know of any other
22:48 instrument that's the only instrument
22:50 that I have and it has not to help me to
22:53 resolve anything to understand anything
22:55 and somehow it dawned on me that that is
23:00 not the instrument and there is no other
23:02 instrument so that means it knocks off
23:05 the whole basis of for any other way of
23:08 trying to understand anything so the
23:11 whole idea of for intuition goes down
23:14 the drain down the tube why why does
23:17 intuition go the intuition is nothing
23:20 but a refined sensitized thought if I
23:25 may put it that way so but it is still
23:27 you see caught up you see in this the
23:31 use of thought to the resolve you see
23:34 the problems well wouldn't it be better
23:36 at least to have refined sensitive
23:39 thoughts rather than crude insensitive
23:42 instead what is the difference
23:44 what is the difference between a crude
23:46 thought and a sensitive thought well in
23:49 in Western tradition in the 18th century
23:51 we we had a notion of the Enlightenment
23:53 which which meant you know being free of
23:55 superstition at least being able to see
23:57 things as they are
23:58 where are we free from superstition why
24:01 do we swallow everything that every
24:04 scientist dishes out every day I say we
24:07 say it is a scientific but it is not so
24:11 scientific they are as dogmatic as the
24:13 religious people of the bygone days but
24:17 because what science has given us the
24:19 technology we invest of tremendous faith
24:23 you see in the scientists every four
24:24 years you see their theories are
24:26 changing as I said the other day their
24:29 interest in trying to find out the
24:33 fundamental particle he is searching
24:37 weighing but they will go on and on and
24:39 on and on and on they're not going to
24:41 give up for anyway yeah I mean the
24:44 intellectual effort to solve the mystery
24:46 of the physical universe is in vain he
24:48 is in way because of the fact that the
24:52 scientist is separating himself from the
24:56 universe it is a single unit you see the
24:59 nature and men are not two different
25:01 things
25:01 as I said before a while ago last time
25:06 that somewhere along you see the
25:10 evolutionary process this
25:12 self-consciousness occurred in the human
25:14 species you see but how do you know
25:17 we're not actually separate how do you
25:19 know that the self-consciousness is not
25:22 valid you know it is the thought that
25:23 creates the space as I said it's not
25:27 easy space so let me give you an example
25:30 we have about a minute left if this is
25:32 in touch with this yes what is it that
25:35 tells you that this is hard the
25:37 knowledge that is hard is the thought
25:41 and the thought creates the space
25:43 between the two and tells that this is
25:45 hard otherwise there is no space between
25:48 the two and there is no way that the
25:51 sense of touch can tell you
25:52 that this is hard and not so I mean even
25:55 something as basic as the sense of touch
25:57 something we take so for granted is
26:00 really just another thought process
26:02 thought process so taught easy space
26:05 thought creates space and in that space
26:08 wave function so this space is something
26:11 which can never never be experienced by
26:14 thought we were trapped in our own
26:18 thoughts and our thoughts can never
26:19 really even see themselves it has no way
26:22 of looking at itself you see what you
26:25 see there the very question is there a
26:28 thought or the interest the demand to
26:31 look at thought is created by thought so
26:34 what you see there is above thought and
26:37 not thought itself ug Krishnamurti thank
26:40 you very much for being with me it's
26:42 been a pleasure thank you and thank you
26:45 very much for being with us
26:52 [Music]
27:13 hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey Mishlove
27:16 with UG Krishnamurti and we're
27:17 continuing our discussion on the nature
27:19 and the mystique of enlightenment ug the
27:24 the various traditions particularly from
27:27 Asia emphasized meditation as a path to
27:30 enlightenment and sometimes it's quite
27:32 specific if you meditate for so many
27:34 years you will be enlightened and and
27:36 you know there's lineages of enlightened
27:38 master after enlightened master who
27:40 followed a formula a recipe he almost
27:43 and seemed to have been then anointed by
27:46 their masters as being enlightened
27:48 beings Oh
27:51 all that has gone out of my system so
27:55 what I have stumbled into is something
27:59 extraordinary for me this is not
28:02 something that is born out of my
28:05 thinking I am NOT putting across a
28:09 logically a certain premise here and I'm
28:15 not thinking at all there's no thinking
28:16 involved in what I am saying it it might
28:19 come as a shock to you if not as a
28:22 surprise that there is nobody who is
28:24 talking here and this is a puppet here
28:28 and you are pulling me City you are the
28:34 one that is responsible whatever is
28:36 coming out of me and so if you ask me
28:40 questions about Hinduism the techniques
28:42 of meditation and what they do I have
28:46 nothing to say on that subject at all I
28:49 in my own way did everything you say
28:54 that one is asked that I was asked by my
28:58 teachers followed everything you see
29:02 that is there in the book practiced
29:04 every kind of meditation and got nowhere
29:08 I discovered that you see it was
29:11 something in the nature of a violence
29:13 see the goal of meditation is peace
29:17 there is already peace here
29:20 this is a tremendously peaceful living
29:22 organism and why in the name of God why
29:26 in the name of enlightenment I am asked
29:30 to meditate to reach a goal which I
29:33 consider to be a silly goal non existing
29:36 goal through meditation you see so why
29:39 am i meditating what is this meditation
29:42 for that was my question basic question
29:44 so I discovered that you see the goal of
29:48 silence placed before me as a goal to be
29:54 reached through one technique or 100
29:57 techniques of meditations
29:59 it doesn't matter is the very one that
30:02 is disturbing and destroying the silence
30:05 that is already there
30:07 whereas I discovered that you see the
30:09 silence that was there is something in
30:12 the nature of a volcano erupting you see
30:15 so you go and stand before an ocean the
30:18 roar of ocean you're going to in general
30:20 what you hear see the tremendous sound
30:25 there they you know so that is the
30:28 silence and through meditation I am
30:30 creating a dead inert state of mind is
30:33 it is the mind that is involved in what
30:36 is called meditation you see so it is
30:38 interested in creating a peaceful mind
30:41 we don't realize I'm not talking the
30:44 saying anything about what the Hindus
30:46 mean by meditation I'm not interested in
30:50 that you see I'm not here expounding the
30:52 cause of Hinduism at all you see what I
30:54 have stumbled into what I have
30:57 discovered is something extraordinary
30:59 for me so I don't even accept that there
31:03 is such a thing as a meditative state at
31:05 all we see it is all techniques of
31:08 meditations if I may use a very very
31:11 crude
31:12 is a sort of self-abuse you see it gives
31:17 us you see the feeling that we are
31:19 putting ourselves into a state of
31:21 silence into a state of darkness what
31:24 you see so if you if you practice one
31:28 technique you have if you see one you
31:30 have seen them all there is no reason
31:33 why we should take try on a hundred
31:36 different techniques of meditation but
31:38 the basic question which one which we
31:41 have to ask ourselves is why do we
31:43 meditate at all what for it's a very
31:46 ancient practice it is I cannot defend
31:52 or brush aside the ancient practice I am
31:54 NOT interested in that at all you see
31:57 the when there is any an idea that is
32:03 given to us that there is such a thing
32:09 as peace of mind is in the silent mind
32:12 that there is a void DC that you should
32:16 not be occupied with these certain
32:18 thoughts then you should be preoccupied
32:20 with another set of thoughts but you are
32:24 always preoccupied with something or the
32:27 other at low time so you can say that
32:30 you are not occupied with something or
32:33 the other but all your energy is wasted
32:36 in choosing between two thoughts you see
32:38 if this thought I want a peaceful
32:40 thought and the other one is a violent
32:42 thought and there is an actual battle
32:45 going on between these two thoughts and
32:47 one thought that you say is a peaceful
32:50 thought and the other thought is a while
32:52 and thought so what you are stuck with
32:54 is a battle a war between two things and
32:57 what you experience and call that desire
33:01 into mind or the experience of a silent
33:03 mind is the peace between two wars and
33:07 then it starts all over again and you
33:10 constantly battle with you see the idea
33:13 that you see this meditation or that
33:16 technique of meditation is going to put
33:19 you into a peaceful state of mind so
33:22 there is no such thing as
33:25 stay peaceful stateful my soup the idea
33:27 of peacefulness maybe the illusion you
33:29 described it is the mind the tests that
33:32 is responsible for the disturbance that
33:34 is there and it has invented uses
33:37 something called a silent mind and
33:40 battles with their teasing that's all
33:43 that is there when you attain this
33:46 insight that you're describing to me and
33:48 yet you say you practice meditation for
33:50 many many years and this practice of
33:52 meditation had nothing to do with your
33:54 own insights what I I would go one step
33:57 further and say that what I have
34:00 stumbled into it is something that has
34:03 happened despite everything I did and
34:06 how I have stumbled into it is something
34:10 which I have no way of finding out for
34:12 myself so it is not the mid techniques
34:15 of meditation it is not the denial of
34:17 sex it is not a practice of control of
34:21 breath you see this is a this is a
34:24 simple trick that we play with you see
34:27 what you call breath control yes when
34:30 you carefully look at you see you have
34:34 no way of looking at it you have no way
34:36 of seeing you and have no way of
34:37 observing see that is really the problem
34:40 see we we are caught up in this idea
34:43 that there is somehow there is some way
34:47 that you can observe that you can look
34:50 at you see and see see but there is no
34:53 way you can separate yourself from the
34:55 breath you see so you want to separate
34:58 yourself from breath and be aware of who
35:01 you are breathing and watch it and what
35:04 for so you are not conscious or aware of
35:07 the fact that you are breathing at this
35:09 moment and why do you want to be
35:12 conscious or aware of breathing and what
35:15 for to achieve a certain goal what you
35:18 are actually doing is cutting out the
35:21 flow of oxygen to the brain and that
35:23 gives you all kinds of very peculiar
35:26 experiences and you dump them as
35:29 spiritual experiences so when once you
35:32 experience something the mechanism of
35:35 experiencing structure is that you
35:38 always demands more and more of the same
35:40 less and less than the other but we seem
35:43 very hungry for spiritual experiences is
35:46 if we have to collect them like trying
35:48 the newest drug or the latest guru or
35:50 the latest tantric method it is no
35:53 different from the way we collect
35:54 millions is no very different from you
35:57 see the way we acquire knowledge so you
36:00 see in a area where tremendous
36:03 importance is given to spiritual
36:05 experiences and not sensual experiences
36:07 you can you see sell this to somebody
36:12 else you see I have all these spiritual
36:15 experiences you don't have so I am
36:17 superior to you that is all that is
36:21 there in this talk about the spiritual
36:23 experiences I know you don't know see so
36:27 I am questioning the very the foundation
36:31 of knowledge you see knowledge there is
36:33 no such thing as knowledge for the sake
36:36 of knowledge knowledge is power I know
36:40 you do not know I am a free man you are
36:45 not a free man so I have no way of
36:48 knowing that I'm a free man
36:49 you see if I tell myself that I'm a free
36:51 man it is the knowledge that is passed
36:54 on to me that tells me that you are a
36:56 free man you see you know I have no way
37:00 of knowing that I am a free man so when
37:01 once you are freed from the knowledge of
37:05 all this freedom business and light
37:10 element business the peace of mind
37:12 business you are no longer interested in
37:15 finding out whether you are peaceful or
37:17 not peaceful whether there is a silencer
37:20 there is no silence at all let me shift
37:24 a little bit with you there those who
37:26 describe the path towards enlightenment
37:29 is bhakti-yoga the path of the heart
37:31 opening up loving
37:35 sometimes they seem like they get a
37:37 little bit gushy but it seems to me the
37:40 emotion it's emotion you see the other
37:43 day I was telling my friend what part do
37:46 tears play the tears are there only to
37:50 lubricate the eyes they have no other
37:53 part to play so emotionally see you
37:57 involve yourself in the eyes become dry
38:00 and then the nature as this is a
38:04 facility to lubricate it in its own way
38:06 so that you call those tears tears of
38:09 joy but the tears are provided by this
38:13 organism to protect itself to protect
38:16 its size so it is lubricating the eyes
38:18 so they are not tears of joy at all so
38:22 when once you see you think the decision
38:24 a man of great devotion is emotionally
38:29 involved is in this the joy you see of
38:33 whatever he wants to call it the eyes
38:37 are drying up and then you see the
38:39 nature is this own way of lubricating
38:41 and protecting itself and that you say
38:44 it is to yourself joy but let's move
38:46 beneath the sentimentality of it to talk
38:49 about for example human communication
38:51 being able for example to recognize
38:55 oneself in another human being do we
39:00 really do that
39:01 is it possible for us to establish any
39:04 relationship the relationship that we
39:07 establish with the other humans human
39:10 beings is on the basis of what do I get
39:14 out of that relationship
39:17 you see so mutual gratification is the
39:22 foundation or the basis of all
39:25 relationships you see so you are not
39:28 satisfied with it the reality of the
39:31 situation it is so horrible for you to
39:34 think that the basis on which you have
39:37 established relationship with you the
39:40 other human beings as you put it is it
39:42 so sordid that you have to superimpose
39:45 on that and call it is his love you see
39:48 so love implies to and see loving thy
39:54 neighbor as thyself crazy this is so
39:57 ridiculous so absurd in the name of love
40:00 thy neighbor as thyself we have created
40:04 so much of horror so much of destruction
40:07 so much of killing is in the name of
40:09 life thy neighbor as thyself
40:11 so are you totally cynical when about
40:13 love a cynic is at least you see is sure
40:16 that his feet are very firmly fixed on
40:20 the ground and it is the way out is
40:22 easily the cop-out for the other man to
40:24 call me a cynic because he doesn't want
40:26 to accept the fact that really there is
40:29 no love between these two individuals
40:31 what do I get out of this relationship
40:33 if that is denied you will be surprised
40:36 what is there in the place of what you
40:38 call love is hate if not hate it is
40:41 apathy indifference towards the other
40:43 individual we use what I am trying to
40:46 say is that it is just impossible to
40:49 establish the relationship on any basis
40:52 there is no need for any relationship at
40:56 all the only relationships we have is in
40:59 the basis what do I get out of this
41:01 relationship
41:02 who wants relationship the person who is
41:05 lonely who is lost he wants to fill his
41:09 emptiness he wants to fill his void and
41:12 he uses to some other individual to help
41:15 him to fill this void and he uses this
41:17 fine
41:19 world Cola but aren't we all ultimately
41:21 in that predicament we all are in that
41:24 predicament where you are not honest
41:27 enough to admit that we use some other
41:29 individual to fill this emptiness to
41:32 fill this void and to fill this
41:35 loneliness so we are using other
41:37 individuals and for this the fancy label
41:40 it is a loving relationship and you may
41:43 call me a cynic this area it's all right
41:44 with me that is the reality of the
41:46 situation so anything that is born out
41:49 of this relationship is violence well I
41:53 I wouldn't necessarily want to deny that
41:55 what you described is the sordid
41:57 foundation of relationships but surely
41:59 they don't just stop at the foundation I
42:02 would think surely there are the heights
42:03 to which it relationships can aspire and
42:06 even if it's an unattainable height it
42:09 may be worth a spiral so we live in that
42:11 hope and die in that hole why is it not
42:16 possible for us to love the other
42:20 individual here and now at this moment
42:22 why does it have to be tomorrow see
42:26 tomorrow means you are pushing what you
42:30 can do today that's why I say you people
42:32 call me a cynic food people call me a
42:34 pessimist people call me a legalist
42:37 people call me this that and the other
42:38 and what they do not real I'm not
42:41 blaming them I'm just pointing out that
42:44 when they use these terms as a cop-out
42:47 they use this too when they use this i
42:52 point out that it is what you believe is
42:56 the solution for even problems he is the
42:59 one that is responsible for evil
43:00 frustration what I am suggesting is a
43:03 very positive thing he'll and you call
43:06 this a negative thing because you want
43:09 this action to occur only there and not
43:12 now I don't know if I make myself clear
43:15 if you're only interested in all actions
43:19 to happen only in the future and not now
43:22 so you are not acting at all you see the
43:26 action has got to be now
43:28 and why is it not possible for us to be
43:31 kind to be honest to be loving to be
43:36 whatever you want to be now and why does
43:39 it have to be tomorrow or you see day
43:42 after tomorrow
43:43 why is my question see you are pushing
43:48 it off something that you can do now and
43:51 you don't want to act now we see that
43:54 action is something which will destroy
43:56 there's a solid relationship to you have
43:59 a stay I'm not saying that you means you
44:02 but I'm here with you right now
44:04 yes that we establish you see this is
44:07 not the relationship and cover it up by
44:10 saying that's a loving relationship this
44:12 brotherly relationship this that and the
44:15 other the action implies freeing
44:18 yourself from this distorted reality and
44:23 create you see if there is any other
44:25 relationship of possible outside of the
44:28 field of whatever you call our brother
44:30 old understanding in soon that is too
44:34 much for us so it is very convenient for
44:36 us not to act not to action means this
44:41 relationship comes to an end what will
44:43 be in its place is something you will
44:45 not know I would not know nobody knows
44:50 earlier I mean you told me that but
44:54 there was nobody there
44:55 nobody had they're just words all works
44:58 works first books how do you ready to
45:02 accept that I have a hard time I think
45:05 I'm talking to a human being
45:09 I don't know if there is anybody who is
45:12 talking
45:14 what is it the time say you see I have
45:17 to bring this the functioning of the
45:21 body your body my body everybody's body
45:25 into the present context see these
45:29 sensors are all independent there is no
45:33 coordination except when there is a need
45:36 for cooperation and the cooperation
45:39 between one two three or all the five
45:42 senses he is decided by the situation in
45:46 which you find yourself and the
45:48 situation demands the coordination of
45:51 one two three or all the senses and so
45:56 they are all independent models what I
45:58 am trying to emphasize now and always in
46:02 put across is that this body is only
46:08 interested you see in response to the
46:11 stimuli the statement then this is
46:16 responding to this stimulus is also a
46:19 questionable thing because you have no
46:22 way of experiencing except through the
46:24 help of the knowledge that is given to
46:26 us that this particular response is the
46:29 response to a particular sensation
46:31 otherwise the response to the stimulus
46:36 and the stimulus and the response to
46:38 that stimulus is a unitary moment and
46:41 you have no way of separating so as a
46:43 matter of fact the eyes are looking at
46:46 one thing the listening mechanism is
46:49 listening to something and the sense of
46:52 touch is is involved in the sense of
46:54 touch so all these are all independent
46:56 activities there is no way that you can
47:00 create the totality of your body here
47:03 and sit here and experience the totality
47:06 of the body what you experience there
47:09 and tell you what self and tell me as
47:11 the totality of your body is born out of
47:15 your imagination
47:17 you see so if you want to experience
47:20 civil body here the only way you can
47:25 experience it is through the help of
47:27 this sensory activity the eyes are
47:31 looking at it the this sense of looking
47:35 does not tell me that you see it is you
47:39 see a body and that it is missing dr.
47:43 fish laughs that is sitting there it
47:45 does not say anything you say about your
47:47 body except that it is reflecting the
47:50 body on the retina yes the light that
47:53 falls on you activates this optic nerves
47:56 and the optic nerves throw the image on
48:00 the retina and it does not say that it
48:02 is a man that it is a human being that
48:05 it is doctor Mushaf it doesn't say
48:08 anything except the reflection of the
48:11 object on the retina and in this process
48:15 the activity of the optic nerves also
48:19 activate the neurons there in your brain
48:23 which we call memory and tells you that
48:27 you see that you are a man and not a
48:29 woman that you are a human being and not
48:31 an animal and so on and so forth but
48:33 these perceptions are so quick that
48:36 there is no need for the memory to come
48:39 into operation and capture you can say
48:41 that you are a man I don't know if they
48:43 make me sleep well I don't know if
48:45 you're describing an organic process or
48:47 a mechanical process I am only talking
48:50 describing the organic process which is
48:53 not different from the mechanical
48:54 process we are not ready to accept the
48:57 fact that that is only a robot there a
49:01 mechanical thing a computer with an
49:04 extraordinary intelligence of its own
49:06 and the acquired intellect which we are
49:09 so proud of is no match to that so as I
49:12 said but even the idea of a computer or
49:14 a robot is also just a thought just an
49:16 idea for us it is but I have to use the
49:19 word computer to give you a feel about
49:22 you see the idea that we have that there
49:27 is something more
49:28 you see there there is a spirit there is
49:31 a soul there is a psyche that there is a
49:33 mind and so on and so here what you're
49:35 doing in effect is denying that there's
49:38 that there is a spiritual nature I is an
49:42 invention of thought within the realm of
49:47 thought in the realm of thought the
49:50 thought has created the materialistic
49:52 values and spiritual values that thought
49:55 is the creation of what society culture
50:00 or whatever you well you may would it be
50:02 fair I'll say then our spiritual nature
50:04 does exist within the realm of thought
50:06 what I am suggesting is that this
50:08 spiritual goal and the demand to achieve
50:12 your spiritual goals are also
50:14 materialistic in their nature yes
50:16 because the instrument which you are
50:19 using is thought which is matter you see
50:23 so you just say that it is a spiritual
50:26 goal and that spiritual values are
50:29 higher than the materialistic goals and
50:31 the materialistic values but the
50:33 instrument which you are using to
50:35 achieve your spiritual goals are also
50:38 materialistic in their nature
50:40 well it's I would think it's debatable
50:42 whether thought is matter
50:44 I don't really know yeah it is debatable
50:49 when you consider thought or think of
50:53 thought as as a thought you see as
50:56 matter or not matter but he is there a
50:59 thought
51:01 the question itself is absurd and
51:04 ridiculous because of the assumption or
51:07 we assume that there is such a thing as
51:09 thought so if you want to find out for
51:11 yourself and by yourself is there a
51:14 thought the question itself is absurd
51:16 because of the assumption that there is
51:18 such a thought and what you find is all
51:21 about thought but not thought see I
51:24 don't know if I make myself well that's
51:26 a very subtle easy you have to do that
51:30 with me all right you see do you think
51:33 that there is a thought there what is
51:35 there is only the question do you think
51:38 but is it there a thought that all
51:41 that's there but there is no other
51:42 thought other than this question is
51:44 there a thought or do you think that
51:46 there is a thought thought is this
51:48 thought is that thought is not this
51:50 thought is matter thought is not matter
51:51 thought is a space that is not space
51:53 thought is time not a time that's all we
51:56 can indulge in this probability of
51:57 arguing and debating for hours and hours
52:00 and hours but we don't get anywhere
52:02 because what we are indulging meaning is
52:04 nothing but our dialectical thinking
52:07 about thinking itself well this helps us
52:10 to sharpen that instrument yes and carry
52:13 on this discussion on and on and on well
52:18 is it like masturbation I used a very
52:22 refined word a dialectical thinking
52:25 about thinking it's mm-hm
52:27 if you want to use that word I am ready
52:29 to go along with it you seem to be
52:34 suggesting that it doesn't we get
52:36 nowhere it's like a dog chasing its tail
52:38 on tail its own tail
52:42 TSR I would put it in a different way
52:45 you are trying to overtake your own
52:47 shadow but you really don't know or
52:53 don't realize don't want to know and ask
52:57 this question what is it that is casting
52:59 the shadow it's the light there without
53:01 that there is no shadow there so instead
53:04 of questioning the shadow itself the
53:08 materiality of the shadow for some
53:11 reason you want to overtake the shadow
53:12 you are not going to succeed well let's
53:15 let's talk more about the light maybe
53:18 later when I use the word light I don't
53:20 mean any divine light or spiritual light
53:23 the light that is there without that
53:25 life I see nothing here if I see
53:29 anything it is only the product of my
53:30 imagination so to be able to see you I
53:35 need the light see so the thought is not
53:39 is here self-generated one it is
53:42 generated by the stimulus of the light
53:45 so that light stimulates as I said an
53:49 while ago and brings the thought into
53:51 operation and tells me that you see that
53:54 is a camera and that you are a man
53:57 that's the call and so on and so forth
53:59 this is a microphone so what is so
54:03 marvelous about you see this naming and
54:06 recognition that's all that we are
54:08 indulging in the frivolity of naming and
54:12 recognizing things so if you do not know
54:17 a thing about what is going on outside
54:20 and what is going on inside you as you
54:23 know yourself or you as you experience
54:25 yourself is coming to an end
54:28 that is the situation which you are not
54:31 ready to face up to so you keep on this
54:36 dialogue with yourself the communication
54:38 with yourself and tell yourself all the
54:41 time that I am this that I am NOT that
54:44 that I am happy that I am NOT unhappy
54:46 that I am bored that I am not bored and
54:49 so on and so forth but actually there is
54:53 no difference between the outside and
54:54 the inside so why do you have to
54:57 constantly carry on this dialogue this
55:02 conversation with yourself would be to
55:05 maintain the continuity of your thought
55:07 as rather than to face annihilation we
55:11 you are projecting a situation called
55:14 annihilation there may not be any
55:15 inhalation at all because when once the
55:19 thought is not there then once you are
55:22 not there you the product of all the
55:25 experiences and thoughts when you are
55:28 not there you are no way of finding out
55:30 what you are left with and you wouldn't
55:32 call it an annihilation at all you are
55:35 not there anymore so you have no
55:38 separate independent existence of your
55:40 own so you are part of the totality of
55:44 things your you and the nature is one
55:48 single unit now ug you seem to be
55:51 suggesting that there's just a little
55:54 hair maybe separating all of us from
55:57 enlightenment and that hair is our fear
55:59 of annihilation the fear you are talking
56:03 about
56:04 have you ever experienced fear at any
56:10 time because you see of what is fear
56:13 after all where is that fear what is
56:16 fear the fear of something coming to an
56:20 end the fear of you as you know you will
56:23 sell you as you experience yourself
56:25 coming to anything so you do not want
56:28 the fear to contain it if the fear comes
56:31 to an end you will drop dead here
56:35 physical clinical death will shake bases
56:39 here it is not in your interest to ask
56:41 demand the fear to containment
56:44 so you play with that you see fear so
56:47 you don't condemn it don't identify
56:50 yourself with fear
56:51 don't do this you see you become one
56:54 with the fear you become choicelessly
56:56 aware you live with the fear you see all
56:59 these techniques all the therapeutic
57:02 cults that have come into the
57:05 marketplace each one trying to sell his
57:08 own particular theory is only
57:10 perpetuating this the fear and not
57:12 trying to help you to free yourself from
57:15 fear because it is something which you
57:17 do not want to free yourself from and it
57:22 is not in your interest that the fear
57:25 should come to an end so you do not want
57:26 the fear to continue do you experience
57:30 fear now the fear there is nothing there
57:32 to come to an end at all probably if you
57:35 see a Cobra there I am NOT an innocent
57:37 child you see you step back
57:41 so then you see the fear that you see
57:45 the it will kill you
57:48 or it will come some kill somebody else
57:50 is absent there then you take a walk
57:52 with a cobra and sing songs with the
57:55 Cobra and you will be surprised what a
57:57 delightful creation what a marvelous
57:59 piece of creation that Cobra is and you
58:02 will never hurt that because hurting
58:05 that is hurting yourself killing that
58:06 Cobra is killing yourself and what gives
58:10 you this situation where you are so
58:14 ruthless and wipe out all these living
58:16 organisms is the idea that you are
58:19 superior and that the whole thing is
58:21 created for your use and that is why we
58:24 have created this problem you I'm
58:27 talking all the time right well you were
58:29 quoted once in a magazine article and in
58:32 India is saying that you thought perhaps
58:34 a cabbage was more alive than a human
58:36 being
58:37 you see do you know that you are alive I
58:43 guess you have a knowledge of that you
58:46 have no way of experiencing the living
58:49 quality of that not that I know or that
58:51 I experience that I am a superior being
58:54 the demand to experience something
58:56 living is impossible for the dead
58:59 structure the thought is dead it is not
59:01 a living thing what gives you the
59:03 illusion is that you see we are trying
59:06 to enlist thought with life and we
59:09 imagine that it is a living thing but
59:11 actually it is a dead thing we see it is
59:14 not is dead so a dead thing cannot
59:17 capture something living if by accident
59:20 you step on a live wire you're dead
59:23 you're finished you see only by accident
59:25 you can step on you see touch life at a
59:28 point where nobody touched before and
59:31 and so you see the then from that moment
59:34 onwards what is living there expresses
59:38 itself without the use of thought so in
59:40 that sense I say you will be more useful
59:43 to nature dead than alive because you
59:46 are living in the world of ideas you are
59:48 living in the world of thoughts you are
59:51 putting
59:52 idea scintilla stomach and you are
59:55 wearing their names so you are not
59:58 living at all it's as if you're saying
60:00 that our ideas are like our clothing
60:02 like our hair or fingernails they're not
60:04 living tissue now they are not living at
60:07 all they are all dead ideas passed down
60:09 to by somebody who has come out with
60:10 these fantasies and ideas you know I
60:14 watch many of your commercials here I'm
60:16 not plugging in any particular thing but
60:18 it is something extraordinary see
60:20 something extraordinary because I they
60:23 cannot sell anything to me you know but
60:26 I am NOT interested in the products they
60:28 are selling and the way they are selling
60:30 this is something extraordinary I'm
60:32 always fascinated by these commercials
60:34 not by the programs they put me to sleep
60:36 so I have become wake when I see a
60:39 commercial I never buy anything that
60:41 they are selling see if they have you
60:44 see viewers like me I see clients like
60:46 me they would be out of business but you
60:48 see here there is one who is admiring
60:49 the way they are selling music yes the
60:52 products that always fascinates me
60:55 because of water
60:56 what is that fascinate me the sales
60:59 pitch the same stalk you see now they
61:01 have all taken over the the religious
61:03 teachers you see they were selling all
61:05 these products to us now Madison Avenue
61:08 has taken over I'm not closing in for
61:10 Madison Avenue at all you see there'd be
61:12 a better job than all these holy men who
61:14 are selling us a shoddy piece of
61:16 spiritual goods what do you think there
61:19 are any holy man any Saints any teachers
61:22 anywhere worth listening to
61:25 I wouldn't go to anybody because I do
61:28 not want anything from anyone
61:31 so there is any other holy man it is not
61:34 my concern it is not my interest what
61:38 about the notion of I'm not interested
61:40 in freeing anybody from anybody you know
61:45 what they are interested in is some sort
61:48 of a drug to put them to sleep I am
61:51 Telling then all the time look here you
61:54 are awake this awakened assist something
61:57 which you do not want so you want to put
61:59 yourself to sleep and so all these
62:01 techniques of meditation the techniques
62:03 of yoga the techniques of breathing God
62:07 knows how many techniques the people in
62:10 this country have come up with they are
62:13 all putting you to sleep because why you
62:15 don't want to stay awake you are already
62:17 awake so the whole idea of bringing
62:23 about this awakening you is is so so
62:25 funny and so foolish and so idiotic
62:27 that we all fall for this and by all
62:31 those things and try to awaken ourselves
62:33 actually we are pulling ourselves to
62:36 sleep because this awakening is
62:38 something that we don't want ug in my
62:42 lifetime I grew up in a small town in
62:44 the middle of the Midwest of the United
62:46 States and I had a feeling then and in
62:50 my youth that there was a slumber there
62:53 that people were locked into their
62:54 attitudes and into their values and into
62:56 their lifestyle and that I needed to to
62:59 leave where did you get all those things
63:01 from they brainwashed us they've made us
63:04 to believe that you see we have been fed
63:07 that kind of a bunk for centuries if
63:11 they would died for to be changed we
63:14 would all die of starvation so you are
63:16 only replacing those things you see if
63:19 it's something from outside that is what
63:22 I am NOT opposed to that what it's me is
63:26 why do you have to import all these
63:28 things from outside if religion is all
63:31 that you are interested in
63:33 what is it that you don't find in your
63:36 Bible what is it that you don't find in
63:38 your Talmud why do you have to import
63:40 all those people from outside who are
63:43 selling you some shoddy piece of
63:45 spiritual goals what is wrong with your
63:47 hymns I'm not for a moment saying go
63:49 back to Christ or back to her church or
63:54 any such and there is no question of
63:55 going back you see so anybody who says
63:59 revived go back is one who cannot offer
64:04 us anything you see you know it's y'all
64:08 the world people in our families they
64:09 always talk about their past because
64:12 they have no future to think about or
64:15 talking about they always talk about the
64:17 past any nation any individual any
64:20 teacher who wants to revive the dead
64:22 past he's already dead because he has
64:24 nothing new to offer why do we have to
64:27 go back why do you make it impossible
64:29 for you for somebody something new to
64:32 come up there and somebody asked me a
64:35 question
64:35 all these youth and people are lost they
64:39 don't know what to do with us you have
64:40 made a mess of your life already and you
64:43 are going to pass on what he has not
64:46 helped you to the younger generation if
64:49 they make a mess of the world let them
64:50 make a mess of the world they are going
64:51 to learn it is their world you tell
64:54 everybody we are all here we are
64:56 interested the world is the future for
64:58 the future generations
64:59 they don't let these future generations
65:02 living here now to have a say in this
65:05 matter it is for them to decide their
65:07 future and we have nothing to do with it
65:10 what has not helped us is not going to
65:13 help anybody all the lies all the
65:15 beliefs they have not helped put us why
65:17 want to pass them on to them if they
65:19 make a mess of the whole world is you
65:21 let them make a mess of the world we
65:22 have made a mess of the whole world we
65:24 are we have no reason to be proud of
65:25 what we have created but let me just
65:31 have you shift a little bit you know you
65:33 are an enigma
65:36 you've been described as a guru you deny
65:39 it you've been described as a
65:41 philosopher you deny that people want to
65:45 attribute the qualities of enlightenment
65:47 to you you deny that but one
65:49 characteristic which you have accepted
65:51 is that you're a world traveler I'm
65:55 tonight that I haven't night I don't
65:57 know it is not because I'm Restless or
66:00 anything ever since I was fourteen I
66:03 have never lived in any place for six
66:06 months at a stretch I have seen
66:08 practically every part of the globe
66:10 except some Pacific and Caribbean
66:13 islands and China but there was a time
66:18 when I wanted to tell myself you see I
66:21 have been there just don't talk about it
66:23 you were visits to the Greece the glory
66:28 of the Greece and the grandeur of the
66:30 Rome the splendor of this country I have
66:31 also been there I spent only three hours
66:34 in the pyramids there that was enough
66:37 for me I can kill myself until
66:39 everything I have been there I have
66:41 never been interested in any anything
66:44 past anything dead then that was my
66:46 problem I was hungry wanting to find out
66:49 for myself and by myself see this the
66:55 question of enlightenment offices should
66:57 be if I may use that word nothing else
66:59 interested me I was lucky enough to be
67:02 born in a very wealthy family was born
67:05 with a silver spoon in my mouth and so
67:07 many silver phones came along my way so
67:10 that made it easy for me to pursue
67:14 and and I tried so hard I I looked
67:19 everywhere
67:20 nobody satisfied me see nobody satisfied
67:23 my hunger to find out the answer is
67:26 there any such thing as enlightenment
67:29 was binoy an enlightened man is that man
67:31 who claims to be an enlightened man is
67:33 he's an enlightened what is it that he
67:35 has I don't have whatever he is telling
67:38 me is false and it is falsifying me be
67:41 selfless what the hell do you want me to
67:44 be selfless I am a selfish being to the
67:46 very core of me and you want me to be
67:50 selfless you see it is that we see the
67:52 idea of selflessness that has turned me
67:54 into your selfless man you are telling
67:58 me that I should be free from anger why
68:01 should I be free from anger anger is a
68:03 tremendous outburst of energy you are
68:07 not dealing with the anger there you are
68:09 not dealing with pleasure you are not
68:11 dealing anything that you see that is
68:13 happening there inside of me I am
68:16 interested in finding out whatever is
68:18 there inside of me cannot be false
68:20 whatever you are telling me is false but
68:23 somehow I didn't have this certainty to
68:27 brush the whole thing aside maybe that
68:30 fellow knows what he is talking about
68:31 maybe he has something which I don't
68:34 have nothing satisfied my hunger you see
68:38 so then they say they give you a small
68:40 piece of bread you see and then they the
68:42 brown bread you see the stone brown
68:44 bread nothing satisfied so what happened
68:47 is the hunger burnt itself off you see
68:50 the the freedom that I wanted is in the
68:54 very demand to be free he's not there
68:57 anymore it's not that I have found the
69:00 answer for that see there is no self to
69:03 realize I have spent 14 nine years of my
69:07 life searching for this self it is not
69:10 there one day so they can all go he sees
69:13 now this certainty that I have all that
69:16 is false it is it does not mean that I
69:18 feel superior and place myself and a
69:21 higher pedestal and tell myself you are
69:24 the most superior of all that I not for
69:27 a moment
69:27 that is false and I do not want that to
69:30 falsify me this certainty I have
69:33 stumbled into it's something which
69:35 cannot be transmitted with somebody you
69:37 say you stumbled into it and you say it
69:39 has nothing to do with this intense
69:41 watching nothing you see the intensity
69:43 is an emotional thing the the insights I
69:46 had through these encounters with others
69:49 strengthened different what to fight the
69:51 very thing that I was trying to free
69:53 myself from it did not help me anyway so
69:56 nothing I did helping me so I have to
69:59 use the word stumbled into because I
70:02 don't know how I this dawned on me that
70:07 there is nothing to understand you see
70:09 that is not the instrument and there is
70:12 no other instrument there is nothing to
70:14 understand well would you have done just
70:15 as well to have remained in that design
70:17 that is a hypothetical question you see
70:20 I must admit that my contact in the West
70:23 to open do you see great horizons for me
70:27 mm-hmm and unfortunately I studied both
70:29 eastern and western philosophies
70:31 thoroughly for my master's degree and
70:33 psychology but nothing helped with me
70:36 because this question the basic question
70:38 is there any such thing as mind why you
70:41 are talking of silent mind why you are
70:43 talking of for the mutation of mind
70:45 there is no such thing as mutation of
70:48 mind there is nothing there to be
70:50 transformed there is nothing there to be
70:51 changed so why this talk of
70:54 transformation radical or otherwise all
70:57 that is absolutely embarrassed
70:59 absolute rubbish poppycock I say to
71:01 myself but yet you see I lacked releases
71:03 certainty so how I stumbled into it how
71:07 it happened why it happened when it
71:09 happened has anything happened to me I
71:11 really don't know so whatever I am
71:14 trying to put across is all an
71:16 expression of what I stumbled into if I
71:20 can't sit here and give a talk you see
71:22 on the same subject like anybody else
71:24 so I go one step further and say that
71:28 you see despite everything
71:31 whatever happened to him happened has
71:34 happened to me
71:35 and it is possible for a rapist a
71:39 murderer or a con man thief man to
71:42 stumble into this kind of a thing more
71:46 than you see all those spiritual
71:49 aspirants together it seems very ironic
71:52 ironic but nevertheless the fact does
71:55 remind so so in a sense anybody who
71:58 might be viewing this program right now
72:01 with the idea that they're going to get
72:02 anything out of it whatsoever to help
72:04 them along in the path of enlightenment
72:06 so if they are interested in solving
72:08 there's personal problems there are
72:11 umpteen number of techniques they have
72:13 to go there
72:14 so this is something which cannot use to
72:18 solve the day-to-day problem ceases I
72:22 have no illusions that this will be or
72:25 it can be of any help to anybody to
72:27 solve their day-to-day problems because
72:29 they are not really interested in
72:31 solving the problems they are not
72:32 interested in in freeing themself from
72:34 fear you know so all these techniques be
72:38 one with fear live with fear except fear
72:41 be choicelessly aware of fear this is
72:44 all you see taking you away from the
72:46 fact of facing up to the situation that
72:49 there is no where you can free yourself
72:51 from here I'm not for a moment
72:52 suggesting that you should live with
72:54 fear what is there what you call you is
72:58 born out of fear it thrives in fear it
73:02 lives in fear so it cannot voluntarily
73:05 liquidate itself free itself of fear so
73:09 it has no solutions for the day-to-day
73:12 problems of the people it has no
73:15 solution for the problems of the world
73:17 it has no social mountain but you know
73:19 it just seems as if the pattern of your
73:21 life as I look at it does fit perhaps a
73:24 classical pattern and it's the pattern
73:25 of struggling of agonizing of really
73:28 pushing yourself on the path and
73:30 reaching a point of despair of
73:32 frustration and then giving up then
73:34 letting go now you see the despair is
73:37 the solution
73:38 you see we are not dealing with the
73:41 despair at all so we are not dealing
73:44 with anger we are not dealing with greed
73:47 there is no point in giving discourses
73:49 on greed or how to be free from greed or
73:52 how to be free from pleasure how to be
73:55 free from despair because despair is
73:58 something which you cannot separate
74:00 yourself from you are dealing with how
74:03 to be free from despair but not despair
74:06 itself you see so the answer to your
74:09 despair is in despair itself and not in
74:13 how to be free from despair so you are
74:15 only thinking about despair and not
74:19 doing anything with that applies to all
74:22 the things that we are trying to be free
74:25 free in other words rather than vainly
74:27 seeking for enlightenment or seeking for
74:30 love or are seeking for all of these
74:31 beautiful concepts that we have you're
74:34 suggesting that we just grab reality by
74:36 the teeth so to speak and all of its
74:39 sordidness and it is not a question of
74:42 act grabbing it is not a question of
74:44 capturing it containing it and giving
74:47 expression to it but that reality that
74:50 is already there has to express itself
74:53 in its own way how it will express
74:55 itself
74:56 you wouldn't know I would there is
74:59 nothing to be done about it
75:00 whatever you we are doing is the one
75:04 that is preventing something living that
75:07 is there to express itself so no two
75:10 human individuals no two human beings
75:12 are the same the culture is interested
75:15 in fitting everybody into a common mode
75:18 see if you look at the leaves you see I
75:20 was a student of botany I studied the
75:23 leaves you see in a microscope no two
75:25 leaves are the same no two human beings
75:27 are the same now they are doing
75:29 tremendous amount of research now they
75:32 are beginning to realize their
75:33 motivation is to track down criminals
75:36 not to understand the functioning of the
75:38 human body they know now in a way you
75:41 see that no two human bodies understand
75:43 your hair you see if it is
75:46 dissolved into the constituent elements
75:49 you will be surprised that your hair is
75:51 quite different from my hair and now
75:53 they have come out with you see the the
75:55 peculiar statement that women have more
75:57 gold in the hair than men more gold more
76:00 gold and then I don't know but I can't
76:02 make any definitive statements about it
76:04 no two human bodies are the same no two
76:08 human individuals are we see the demand
76:11 of the culture the society or whatever
76:13 you want to call it to fit all of them
76:15 in a common mold and produces even the
76:19 same kind of people is not going to
76:21 succeed in the longer probably we may
76:23 not live long to achieve our goals who
76:27 knows I don't know so this is must be
76:29 one of the dangers than a spiritual
76:31 traditions it is not that that will help
76:34 us they say what will help us to live
76:39 together peacefully
76:41 music terror not love thy neighbor
76:43 services they sell because if you try to
76:47 destroy your enemy you will go with him
76:50 if you hurt you or any physical e it can
76:52 hurt you not psychologically not
76:55 emotionally not romantically not
76:57 politically if you step on the toes of
76:59 somebody you see he is going to step on
77:02 your toes that we have in your way
77:05 understood in the international field in
77:08 relationship in the superpowers you see
77:10 you can no longer talk in terms of
77:12 massive retaliation you have to live
77:14 with your adversaries you have to live
77:16 with your enemies you have to leave it
77:20 you see and the one who is trying you
77:22 see to her to you but then probably we
77:24 will understand that you see if you try
77:26 to destroy your neighbor you are going
77:29 to destroy yourself maybe that will help
77:31 us to live together in peace but not
77:34 know their neighbour as thyself
77:37 getting a tuck well you sound sort of
77:40 like the 18th century British
77:42 philosophers like John Locke and Thomas
77:44 Hobbes who talked about the social
77:46 contract and humanity is being a loaf
77:49 and a dragon inside and that we had to
77:52 face this sort of evil quality you are
77:55 talking as if humanity is out there you
77:58 see the demand for permanence of society
78:01 Humanity is the demand for permanence
78:04 here what I am saying is that there is
78:07 no such thing as permanence the demand
78:10 for permanence is the cause of man's
78:13 misery
78:14 the demand for permanence in
78:16 relationship the demand for permanence
78:19 of happiness the demand for permanent
78:21 pleasure is the cause of man's misery so
78:25 since you know in a way that you as you
78:27 know yourself and you as you experience
78:31 our surface coming to an end as an idea
78:34 you know that one day you are going to
78:37 die but not as a fact we see not as a
78:39 reality but as this an idea that you are
78:43 also going to die like you see all those
78:45 who died before so you project the
78:48 demand for permanence on mankind that
78:51 mankind must be permanent must be there
78:54 and you should do everything possible to
78:56 see that humanity survives that is born
78:59 out of the demand for permanence so we
79:02 are not going to succeed in the long run
79:04 because there is no such thing as
79:06 permanence in any relationships so in
79:10 any demands that we are interested in
79:13 maintaining the permanence yuuji we have
79:16 only about five minutes nothing but a
79:18 semi time I don't want to do that yet I
79:20 want I want to get into something a
79:24 little more personal so now that you
79:25 told me once about yourself that you had
79:28 experienced physical death
79:30 you see yesterday there was one lady who
79:34 visited me
79:35 and asked me a question I want to live
79:39 in this moment passionately that was a
79:44 question yes I said you have to be dead
79:47 now you can't live unless you go through
79:54 this process not dying to your poetic
79:58 romantic yesterday's or psychological
80:01 death but the totality of man's thoughts
80:04 experiences and feelings that are passed
80:08 down first from generation to generation
80:10 then what is left there begins to
80:13 express itself from that moment onward
80:15 you have no existence of your own
80:18 separate independent existence of your
80:20 own at all so you're part of the
80:23 totality of things from then on this is
80:27 a single unit the nature and you are not
80:29 separate but when I make such statements
80:31 it is not that I myself can experience
80:35 you can't experience the the the
80:38 totality or the single Ness of nature
80:42 and you but the demand to experience is
80:46 not there anymore
80:50 so in other words there is no such thing
80:53 as in-depth at all what is there in the
80:56 fear of something coming to an end what
81:00 is it that will come to an end
81:03 the fear of something coming to an end
81:05 what is there that will come to an end
81:07 there is nothing there there is no
81:09 entity there now what do you think will
81:12 come to an end the demand to maintain
81:15 the demand for permanence of something
81:18 that is not there coming to an end
81:20 can be described as death you see the
81:23 condition of the body huh we use the
81:27 word and call it a dead body because it
81:30 is not responding to the stimuli the way
81:32 we think the living body is responding
81:35 to the stimuli but you you Verster who
81:37 do not know that you are responding to
81:40 the stimuli you say that I am talking
81:42 that I am full of animation that I am
81:45 coming out with all these concepts I
81:47 have no way of knowing whether I am
81:49 saying anything here what is all this
81:51 noise coming out it's just a noise you
81:55 seem to make some sense out of it and it
81:57 is good otherwise we can't function
81:59 sanely and intelligently in this we have
82:02 to accept the reality of things as it is
82:06 as they are imposed on us otherwise we
82:08 will all end up in a loony bin singing
82:10 Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies we have
82:13 to accept the reality of the world as
82:15 functional in their value but the moment
82:18 you try to understand the reality of
82:20 anything let all the ultimate reality
82:22 you are lost forever well you seem to be
82:25 suggesting a pragmatic approach to life
82:28 and letting go of these philosophical
82:30 abstractions except as is games for the
82:34 sharpening of the intellect that saw
82:36 that
82:37 is the part that philosophy placed in
82:40 our life to sharpen that instrument you
82:43 see so you are not interested in
82:46 accepting the fact that there is no
82:49 foundation for your logical thinking
82:51 there is no foundation for your
82:53 rationality whoever said that man is a
82:56 rational being deluded himself and
82:59 deluded us all our actions do not show
83:02 any rationality any logic ality in our
83:06 function I don't know if there is any
83:08 such word as logically we don't see
83:10 logic in our lives we don't see that our
83:13 life's our own run on logic well Yugi
83:18 we're just about out of time and I'm in
83:20 the paradoxical position of saying how
83:23 much I've enjoyed being with you and in
83:27 a sense I say that and I know that you
83:29 probably you may be thinking to yourself
83:32 there's nothing to enjoy no I'll just
83:35 tell you thank you very much indeed okay
83:38 and thank you thank you with me thank
83:41 you I don't know we're talking really
83:44 what if you put it on paper or if you
83:47 try to listen to that it won't make any
83:49 sense
83:50 this my idea is not ideally if there is
83:54 a purpose or if there is any motivation
83:57 in these dialogues it is only to leave
84:00 the other individual with this enigma
84:02 the paradox and he has to resolve the
84:07 problem for himself and by it
84:10 thank you for sharing the paradox with
84:13 us
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