The core theme of this content is a masterclass on Instagram growth strategies, emphasizing the evolution of effective content formats and engagement tactics in response to platform changes and algorithm updates.
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You can stop searching the internet,
asking Chat GPT questions, and you can
go straight to an Instagram expert to
learn how to get followers, build your
brand, and make money using Instagram
right now. Today's guest is getting 15
million views every single month, but
there's been so many changes. The head
of Instagram has revealed new things,
the algorithm's changing. Today, we're
really diving into an Instagram masterclass.
masterclass.
Brock Johnson, welcome back to the show.
>> Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
>> What is the best post for getting views
on Instagram right now? The best format?
>> Mhm. That's a really good question. I
think format's the keyword, because I
think that there's two formats that
everyone is doing on repeat, and they're
just not working. One of them is the 7-second-long
7-second-long
trending audio in the background. I'm
going to grab a random B-roll video of
myself. I'm going to slap a clickbait
hook, some text on the top, wait a few
seconds, and then say, "Read the
caption." This would never in a million
years work on YouTube. Imagine you post
a YouTube video like today, and it was
like, "I'm interviewing Brock Johnson
about Instagram." And 3 seconds into
this YouTube video, it's just like,
"Read the description of the YouTube
video for all of our kids."
>> see the conversation? There's a link to
the transcript.
>> Right? Like, that's that's just not ever
going to work on YouTube. But, it did
work on Instagram for a little bit, and
it worked cuz it was tricking the
algorithm into thinking, "Oh, you got
this super long watch time cuz your
video's looping, and people are reading
this caption." But, Instagram, just like
YouTube, is a visual platform. People
want to watch something. They want to
consume something with their eyes, not
read this little fine print. So, that's
one thing that's not working. Another
kind of format that's not working is the
very polished, scripted talking head
reel, especially because those talking
head reels are often scripted by Chat
GPT. They sound the same, and it's three
tips for becoming a better rock climber.
And so, it's overdone, and it's boring.
Two things that we are seeing as working
really, really well right now. One
is super raw, unpolished content, what
the Gen Z crowd would call like yapping
content. Where it's like, it's uncut, my
my phone is not on a tripod, or at least
starts not on a tripod, it starts in my
hand, and then I'm setting it down, and
I'm just talking to the camera, FaceTime
style, where I'm very organic, talking
to a friend. That's one style of content
that works really well, and the
misconception with that content is
people are like, oh, well, it's I'm just
yapping, I'm just talking to the camera,
that's easy. It's not easy. It's easier
on post-production, because you don't
have to edit it and splice it. It's
easier on pre-production, because you
don't have to script it with ChatGPT,
but it's much harder during the actual
filming process to speak for 47 seconds
eloquently, concisely, no filler words,
without pausing, without going off on a
side tangent. That takes a lot of
practice, as you know.
Um, so, that's one style that we see
working really well. The other is
just creative formats in general, unique
ways of positioning the exact same
content. So, one example that I've seen
working really well recently, um, is
ranking, or or scoring, or grading
videos. There was a bunch during March
>> ChatGPT versus quad quad.
>> Yeah, and they're doing that. Or, like,
during March Madness, everyone was doing
a bracket, you know, comparing this
feature to this feature, that one wins,
and kind of like working their way
through the bracket.
>> bracket content creators, and maybe you
were on there.
>> I'm sure I was, probably at the bottom
of the list. And then there's, um,
there's also ones where they do like
tier ranking, where it's like super It's
been popular on YouTube forever, where
people do S tier, A tier, B tier, and
now just doing that with, uh,
their own content on on Insta. So, those
are working really well, um, and it's
really just ultimately trying to find
different creative visual ways to
communicate the same ideas, rather than
just yapping, or I shouldn't say
yapping, rather than just talking
directly to the camera.
>> Okay, I want to just make sure we're all
on the same page. What is your
definition of formats, and why that
matters? When somebody just thinks like,
it's just posts, what is a format?
>> Yeah, a format This is a great topic,
something I was actually thinking like,
on the drive here today, how do I define
a format? A format is essentially the
way the video is packaged, or the style
in which it's written. So, it's let's
put it in YouTube context. On YouTube,
there are explainer videos where it's
one person talking to the camera, maybe
there's some screen recordings, but
they're explaining or teaching
something. There are vlogs. Those are
very different formats.
>> For sure.
>> They could be used to ultimately teach
the same lesson. They could have the
same or a very similar big takeaway, but
they're completely different formats,
right? Like even this conversation today
has a format. It's you and I sitting
across from each other in this room. We
have like the chairs. We have
microphones. What if we did this as like
a vlog and it started with like you
waking up in the morning in your hotel
room and you're telling the camera,
"Hey, I'm going to be interviewing Brock
today." You walk into a coffee shop,
there I am. We're drinking our coffee.
It's vlog-like, but we're still having
this conversation and giving these tips.
So, it's different formats. It's just a
different way of presenting the topic or
or the material or or whatever it may
be. And those formats are are what I
would argue might be the most important
thing for
getting views on your reels because
those formats are what are constantly
changing. Um and what format is popular
or working really well right now, that
is what is constantly evolving. Um and I
think that you could take a really
boring subject matter like tax strategy
and with the right format and the right
hook, that's the other ingredient, the
format and the hook,
you can get amazing views. You can go viral.
viral.
>> That's that's powerful cuz that's it's
what makes this available for everybody
listening, no matter what who their
target audience is, what problem they
solve, what their product or service is,
what business they're in. The point is
a change of format could be a drastic
change of results that might lead to 10
to 100 x more views.
>> 1,000% 1,000% Some other ones that come
to the top of my mind immediately,
series and or challenges. I think the
easy version of this is like day one of
giving a different tax tip every day.
Probably going to get pretty boring, but
it's at least going to provide you with
an idea a baseline. Hey, every day I can
just give a new tax tip, consistency.
A more powerful growth hack. Like if you
want to go viral in 2026, the guaranteed
way to do it is by starting a challenge
for yourself. So the one that I'm doing
is reviewing a reel everyday until I
reach 1 million followers. Um another uh
member of ours is donating a dollar for
every new follower to cybersecurity
until she reaches a million followers,
which is insane.
>> So she'd be we'd be donating up to a
million dollars.
>> a million dollars, yeah. Um another one
of our uh members, she went from 700 to
25,000 followers in a month. And what
they're doing is is they're a a couple
um and they are on uh they're LGBTQ. And
so for every follower, they're writing
the follower's name on a colored sticky
note and adding it to the wall. And the
wall is forming this giant uh pride flag mural.
mural.
>> So people are seeing the progression.
>> following, they're adding their their
yeah, they're adding it. They're seeing
the progression. They're seeing the
mural, the kind of flag come together.
Um and they
they've absolutely blown up because of
it. And now they have merch and brand
deals and whatnot. So a challenge or a
series. And the other idea that I wanted
to share is street interviews. We've all
seen street interviews. They're so
dynamic. Uh they create a lot of
variability. So I don't care if you're
doing rock climbing tips, tax strategy,
real estate, go out on the street and
talk to people. And it creates this
feeling in the viewer of like, "Oh, I
don't know what's going to happen. This
is unscripted. This is raw. This is
real. Let me lean forward." And there's
so many viral moments that can come out
of those.
>> I want to go in what I think it's fair
to call uh go deeper in the YAP strategy.
strategy. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Really and and YAP is almost like an
official term now. Like YAP as a style
of reel. It it could be
uh somebody in their car, a female with
a cup ranting. And it has like that feel
to it, but it's an actual content format
now that there's like frameworks around.
Is there any prompts you would have for us?
us?
Because I And then I think the The
listeners could make is they just think,
"Okay, who cares about just random
thoughts shared in a car, shared in my office?"
office?"
Well, that's a very surface level
observation of it because
it's a style, but what are some ideas if
you were to try to get somebody thinking
about what they could start yapping
about right after listening to this
podcast that could get results? Like, is
there a formula?
>> Yeah, I think first and foremost, you
want to talk as if you're speaking to
one person. So, you don't want to be
like talking to the audience. It's not
guys, it's not y'all, it's one person.
And something that I've told people to
do is literally FaceTime a friend. Like,
if you struggle to sound organic and
conversational on your content,
literally FaceTime a friend and screen
record yourself and just blur out their
camera or zoom it in a little bit or
FaceTime them on your computer and then
like lean your phone up against the
computer and just talk to your friend
while your phone is filming and that way
you'll be much more conversational. I've
also heard some people are now talking
to ChatGPT. Still have like a
conversation with ChatGPT so that hey, I
don't have to put my friend on the spot
and FaceTime them, but I'm at least
talking to what feels like another person.
person.
>> Even in in that case, verbal prompts
they're looking at or they're actually
talking and you hear ChatGPT's audio.
>> They'll cut out ChatGPT's audio in the
background. It's just to get that
internal feeling of like I'm talking to
a human, I'm not talking to content.
>> Because like one big principle of
effective yap strategic content is tone.
>> Sometimes we turn on in this video, I'm
about to do the >> broadcaster.
>> broadcaster.
>> Yeah, we turn on the broadcaster or we
also like our soap in a way preachy.
Doesn't have to be a bad preachy, could
be a bad preachy, but it's like yeah,
we're not
but we're you feel like you're cutting mid-conversation.
mid-conversation. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> You might feel a little rant energy.
Like, it's and okay, so go on.
>> And I think I think another principle of
that is varied sentence length. So,
oftentimes when we're speaking in
content, we speak in short sentences so
that people can follow on every word.
And they're all five-word sentences. I'm
going to pause after each one so you can
understand what I'm saying. That's not
how I talk to you like when we're
walking over here and we're just
chit-chatting. Varied sentence length,
short, long, medium, and playing around
with that it really adds like a music.
There's a great book by I think his name
is Gary Provost and it's 100 ways or
might even be 1,000 ways to improve your
writing, but it applies to content as
well and and your speaking in this
yapping content where your your yapping
can sound like music and it can flow and
it can be conversational rather than
conversion content or like our normal
marketing jargon speak where we have
like these things that that we ways we
want to say things and tones and
inclinations and I think that that can
make a big difference for people.
>> Do you have a viral content strategy?
>> Yes and no. Yes and no. I think that in
general there's a few things that I
would tell people. First of all, you
never know what's going to go viral. It
makes me crack up when people are like,
I know what's going to go viral every
time. Like, no you don't. Like unless
you have a time machine
>> know the principles.
>> You might know the principles.
>> And you might do consistent posts, but
to actually predict and be able to do it.
it.
>> Yes. Yes.
I all the time make a post and I'm like,
this is really really good. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter]
>> I post it and it flops. Or the opposite,
I'm like, this whatever I'm just making
I'm just posting it because I want to
get a post up right now and then it goes
viral or it does better than the
average. And I think that that is our
own ego getting involved and that's our own
own
like we're too close to it, we're too
involved in the editing of it, we care
too much about it, we view our post as
our art form and our self-expression and
it's just a reel, it's not that serious.
Um, but there are definitely principles,
right? There are things like the hook is
is the most important thing. We need to
grab people's attention. A recent report
came out from Meta where they said that
it takes people 1.7 seconds on their
platforms on average to decide whether
or not they're scrolling. 1.7, so we've
always said like the first 3 seconds are
your hook. 1.7, they're deciding am I
watching or scrolling? And that's the
number one thing that Meta is looking
for is what you might call the skip
rate. Are people stopping or are they
skipping? That's the first thing.
>> saw today I posted a reel that said your
average reel has a 77% skip rate.
This reel has a 50% skip rate and it was
performing better. It's getting more views.
views. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely.
>> And so you're saying that the skip is
determined they did not skip if they're
there after 1.7 seconds.
>> I believe that's how they define it. It
might be three in their actual analytics.
analytics. >> Measurement.
>> Measurement.
>> want the viewer to stay past three.
>> Yeah, and we as consumers just know
actually like it's wild how fast we
might skip. They would just see it. Nah.
Nah. And so three seconds is sounds
crazy, but it's like a long time of
dwell time.
>> Yeah, and that's that's another thing
that people overlook when it comes to
hooks. We've talked so much we as as
marketers and people who teach content
about the words in your hook or the text
on the screen or what you're saying when
the visual matters so much more.
>> Where you are.
>> Yeah, like people are going to be able to
to
see what's on the screen and make that
decision like you said faster than they
can read. Faster than you can finish
that first sentence. They've decided
what is this video about? Is it worth my
attention? Is it worth my time? Am I
skipping or am I watching? So that's the
first thing. The second thing that
determines virality especially is share
rate. Uh Moseri has recently said head
of Instagram has recently said likes
determine reach from followers. So say
that another way, if your post is
getting significantly more likes than it
normally does, then it will be pushed
out to more of your existing followers.
If it's getting more shares than it
normally does, then it will be pushed
out to new people.
>> And that's powerful. Not not just
because sharing literally exposes it to
new people. >> Yep.
>> Yep.
>> Instagram itself will say if people are
sharing this, which would
expose it to those new individuals,
we're algorithmically
>> Yes, we're going to show it to even
more. So like the the key thing that
determines every viral post is share
worthiness. Whether or not it's going to
be shared, whether or not it's it is it
is actually being shared.
>> What's the framework that makes a post share-worthy?
share-worthy?
>> I have an acronym, s h a r e. Share, s
is simple. So, I think that we can often
times really over complicate big words,
fancy lingo, fancy vocab. Dumb it down,
please. So simple that a drunk grandma
could understand it.
>> Ooh, the drunk grandma principle.
>> principle, exactly. Yeah. That needs to
apply to your Reels.
Um and and apply even in the first few seconds.
seconds. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like I I see people using idioms or
analogies in their hook. It's going to
go over a lot of people's heads. Or they
use fancy insider lingo. It's going to
go over people's heads. Dumb it down. Um
Mr. Beast has talked about how his most
viral short-form content has no words,
has no spoken audio. So that even if you
are deaf, even if you don't speak any
language, you're able to consume that
content and understand what it's about.
Um h is hook. We've talked about the
hook, right? A is authentic. And
authenticity is one of these buzzwords
that people love to throw out there. My
definition of how do you practically be
authentic on Instagram is to reduce the
time between idea and execution. So, the
less time that you can spend scripting,
ChatGPTing, prompting, planning, and all
of that, the more authentic it'll be.
Additionally, the less time you can
spend editing. >> Huh.
>> Huh.
>> Huge problem is overthinking.
>> Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I think
there there's maybe a couple of
different types of people, but two big
categories. One, there's people who are
already comfortable posting content. And
there's still some that are trying to
get over the fear.
Um but many are comfortable posting
content. And then some are hesitant to
even post at all. What's funny is as you
said that, it actually made me think
about my own process. In a way like I
almost know too much. I'll get an idea,
but then it's like, oh, let me craft it.
Let me really Let me talk to Claude
about it. Then what should the exact
headline be? And then And let me even
make a few bullet points. And then I've
sometimes scripted an entire video and
use CapCut to do the eye contact thing.
And I just read it on my computer to
quickly do that. Which again, still did
fun. But talk about that idea of just
compress it like use the energy around
closest to when you had the inspiration
or the idea is genius cuz that's also
kind of when your emotion is highest, too.
too.
>> that's that that is what makes it
authentic. Quite literally every layer
of scripting, editing, refilming,
reshooting, all of that is adding layers
between your original idea and emotion
and energy and the final product. And I
could give a million examples. 3 days
ago I had a post I was like, "This is
really good." I remember I finished
editing it and I came out and told T my
wife I was like,
"I'm feeling good right now. Like I'm
feeling in the zone. That was a good
edit." is my worst performing post of
like the last 90 days. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah, so that's and and and would you
agree with this that at the same time
listeners that it's both and there's a
time and place though to sit down and
script and to practice the art form? >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely.
>> Um because the processing of scripting
or crafting each sentence in a certain
environment could absolutely be effective.
effective.
>> 1,000% 1,000%. I am a big fan of doing
that in public, practicing in public,
iterating in public. And so as you are
scripting, as you're refining your
hooks, as you're like, "Oh, I'm trying
to figure out these new formats. I'm
trying to speak in varied sentence
length like Brock said to do." post it.
Like don't edit it and then leave it in
your drafts and be like, "I'll do
another one tomorrow." No, no, post it.
It'd be like imagine you studied
shooting a basketball and then you did
all this work like you're holding the
basketball and you're like following
through but you're never actually like
shooting the basketball.
Shoot the ball. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like and then you can learn from the feedback.
feedback.
>> do this week? I read five more books
about basketball. Have you actually been
shooting the ball? No, I haven't been
shooting it but >> Exactly.
>> Exactly. >> Um
>> Um
>> Yeah. I want to finish the the share
acronym though. The R is relatability
and relatability comes from specificity.
So something that I think a lot of
people do is they try to water down
their stories because the thought is
if I tell a story about how I was
running late and I was stressed,
everyone can relate to being running
late and stressed. But no one's going to
relate that specifically. No one's going
to relate like feel it that heavily,
right? But if instead I'm talking about
how I missed my alarm and then my dog
threw up in the corner so I had to clean
up their throw up this morning and then
I really wanted to get a good cup of
coffee, but I just didn't have time so I
had to do like a crappy old cup of of
brewed coffee from the night before and
then I was like I spilled on my shirt so
I had to change shirts. I had to stop at
at the Nordstrom's and grab a new shirt
on the way. Like all of those specifics,
no one has had that exact thing happen
to them. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> But because of how storytelling works,
because of how our mirror neurons in our
minds work, when I give you all those
specifics, you're picturing yourself.
Your brain is like imagining what it's
like to be in that story and so it's
able to connect with you much deeper.
It's able to hit much harder.
>> is specificity?
>> Relatability is specificity. It's not vagueness.
vagueness. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> And again, we think, oh, if I'm more
vague, if I'm more watered-down, if I'm
more vanilla, everyone likes vanilla,
sure. But nobody is like a vanilla super
fan. No one's going to be like Some
people are, but no one's going to be
craving that vanilla. I remember I
talked about this on stage once and
someone was like, "What about Mad-
Madagascar vanilla bean?" And I was
like, "But that's specific. You gave me
a specific vanilla." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and so relatability comes from
specificity. So, whether it's your
captions, the stories that you're
telling when you're yapping, the text
that you're putting on the screen to
label the situation, get specific. One
more quick example before we move off of
the R.
If I posted a reel and it said it was
like me crying, let's say a meme of me
crying with some sad violin in the
background and the text said, "Me when
my reel doesn't do well."
Everyone can relate to that. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Whether you're Oprah Winfrey or you're
Joe Schmo, everyone's had a reel not do
well. But if instead I say, "Me when I
spend 3 hours editing a reel that I was
sure would go viral and it gets seven likes."
likes." >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Those specifics are what allow you to
connect on a deeper level. It's what
makes it funnier. It's what makes it
more relatable.
>> Okay, yeah.
>> Um and then finally, the E is
entertaining. So, way too many business
owners and brands and content creators
are focused on educational content.
There's value in education, but
education alone is often very boring.
And so, instead we have to, like we were
talking about earlier with different
formats for your videos, with your
hooks, with your visuals, the way you're
presenting the content, you can educate,
but you have to do it in a way that
people are actually going to be
entertained, or else they're not going
to stop their scroll and watch.
>> That's strong, the SHARE formula. And
that, if you hit all those, sharing is
the number one metric for virality. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> What if I told you that you could grow
your Instagram following in less than 15
minutes a day? Well, I'm excited because
I'm hosting a free web class with Brock
Johnson at bestigtips.com.
He actually has a three-step framework
for gaining 1,000 new followers per
month, how to beat the algorithm right
now, and some of the changes that are
happening, as well as his formula for
creating Instagram Reels that gets you
the right followers, and get more views.
So, if you want to be a part of that
free class, just go to bestigtips.com or
click the link in the show notes. All
right, let's dive back into the podcast.
>> I'm curious about what you think about
this, um, in terms of your understanding
of the Instagram algorithm. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Algorithms are are similar, I believe,
especially in the today's world where
it's like we've shifted from social
media to interest media, >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> and the content is the variable,
and that's true kind of across platform.
But I've noticed algorithms
seem different. And one big part of
Instagram seems to be identity. That
Instagram is an identity-based platform.
You might disagree. I'll go deeper, though.
though. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> That as Instagram begins to get to know
you, the Reels you're being recommended
is like, I'm an elder millennial, I'm
42, I'm a dad of of five and three, and
Instagram knows I'm a dad. I'll get dad
con- Obviously, it's who I'm engaging
with, but the types of posts
that can hit a identities, and those
identities could be very broad appeal,
cuz there's lots of dads, or there's
like small business owners, uh, and is
there something strategic to lean in on
that? Is that an accurate assessment of
of some of what's working on Instagram?
>> Yeah, definitely. It just goes back to
the idea of niche. Like when you niche
down, that is ultimately how you're
going to grow. Now, you can go viral
without any
>> But let me ask this. If if I'm not going
to niche down, like so you you follow me
on Instagram, >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> I wrote YouTube Secrets,
um and, you know, teach YouTube, but I I
feel like there's a time and place to
talk about like fatherhood stuff does
good for me. That's the maybe it's a
piece of the overall puzzle
or my faith,
and that can resonate. Is is that a good
idea or bad idea? Cuz that's not my
niche. Neither fatherhood nor faith is
my niche.
>> Yeah, I think that there's there's
layers to this and how we approach it.
Good idea or bad idea, I would take a
step back and ask like what is your goal?
goal? >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> If your goal on Instagram was to get a
million followers and to have this
ginormous Instagram audience, then I
would say stick to one thing. Like bring
in those other elements, sprinkle them
in, maybe weave them into stories
creatively. Like we both love
snowboarding, maybe I'm not going to
make a post of me snowboarding some
sweet powder day, but I'm going to
record a quick tip on the podcast or on
the chairlift, excuse me. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So they're seeing it, right? But if your
goal is, "Hey, I don't want a million
followers, but I want maybe a couple
hundred thousand who really know me, who
are super fans, who are invested," then
you can start to broaden out those
topics a little bit. I can start to
bring in more fatherhood. I can start to
bring in more faith related. I can start
to bring in more snowboarding content,
because then people are following me for
these different buckets. The only
challenge there is, you know, to to give
the counterargument, let's say you make
an amazing post about fatherhood and it
goes viral, and people are like, "I'm
loving this." Yeah, and then you don't
talk about it anymore.
>> Yeah, so I see Okay, so I mean I I would
say I'm sure these are the type of stuff
as, you know, marketers and social media
people we think about a lot. So what
would you tell me to do? Do it or not?
If you were me, what would you do?
>> What's your goal? >> Well,
>> Well,
my goal is to I mean my my primary goal
number one I would actually say is to
not go out of business. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> It's It's actually cuz and it's not that
money is the first thing, but I believe
that you need money for the mission and
it's maybe another way to put it. I want
to play the infinite game like Simon
Sinek's book.
Um and my
ethos is that you know, your income is
directly correlated to the amount of
value you add to the marketplace. So,
there's there's a presupposition that
I'm going to add value, you know,
there's going to be brand trust built and
and
we're going to help people with YouTube
as far as our company. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Um and then so then I my my belief which
could be a false belief, but it's like
that on the same token people do
business with people that they know,
like, and trust. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And they follow people with shared beliefs.
beliefs. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh sometimes not I mean to some degree
they resonate with certain people, but
people I mean Gen Z especially there's a
whole bunch of stats of like a Gen Z
will switch
>> switch brands if
>> if they have two options and there's a
brand that more aligns with what they
believe in or eco-friendly or something
like that. So, that's kind of I think
there's that. I think there's also then
there's like the sub point of of like
self-expression {slash} well, I just
feel like it. I would sacrifice
followers to be able to express myself.
I still think there's like a hierarchy
of priority because the social media
serves business
ob- you know, objectives not the other
way around.
>> I think the way you're doing Instagram
is perfect for what you want and what
your goals are. I think it like you
said, it checks off the self-expression.
You get to talk about the things that
really matter to you. You have a large
audience. Your audience knows, likes,
and trusts you. You don't have 2 million
followers on Instagram. I also
>> I don't have 1 million followers on
>> I also would imagine True.
>> I have 500,000
>> have 1 million followers on Instagram,
but I also would imagine that being
someone who focuses on YouTube and
posting about that on Instagram is just
never going to have
>> It's not that Yeah.
>> the ceiling, right? It's like me posting
about Instagram on TikTok. The TikTok
audience is like, "We want TikTok."
Maybe they want YouTube, but they
definitely don't want Instagram, right?
And same thing, whenever I talk about
TikTok on my Instagram, they're like,
"We don't want TikTok. We want We want Instagram."
Instagram." >> sense.
>> sense.
>> Yeah, and there is there is the YouTube
crossover, which YouTube has this kind
of unique position in the market where
it's kind of the like, "Yeah, I'm on
Instagram and YouTube.
>> It's the universal center. It's almost
considered not a social media platform.
>> Totally. Exactly.
>> It's the video place where you live.
>> Exactly. And so I think that there are
opportunities like a a bigger
opportunity for you to reach um you
know, a larger audience, but I think the
way that you're doing it is is exactly
what I would suggest.
>> Okay, so that was on uh we talked about
share. We're talking about, you know,
types of posts that get uh views. You're
talking about um authenticity. I want to
hear about some of the changes. There's
always these micro changes. That's why I
follow you and that's why you're my
coach on Instagram. But what are the
most significant from you meeting with
Instagram's team, the CEO, you know, assuming
assuming
that most people, you know, aren't
paying that close of attention, if
there's like some of the big rocks of
things that have happened in the most
recent 6 to 12 months?
>> Yeah. First of all, there is a million
bajillion little features. There's
probably been three new ones that
they've released today. There is always
little tiny changes, but there haven't
been any massive overhauls um
necessarily in the last few years.
Shares are number one in terms of
virality. Likes are number one in terms
of reaching your audience. Those are the
two most important. Everything else,
comments, saves, all of those are far
far far lower in terms of what's going
to determine your your reach on
Instagram. Um ultimately, what Instagram
cares about is getting people to have
conversations and specifically DM
conversations. That's their holy grail.
That's their North Star.
Is how [snorts] do we get more people to
have DM conversations because uh
we can argue about which came first, the
chicken or the egg, but as the algorithm
has existed for the last decade, uh the
average Joe is posting a lot less. Your
friends and family are posting a lot
less. I remember when I was in high
school, everyone of my friends posted
every single day without fail on their
feed. Now,
I have friends who I follow who haven't
posted in 6 years, and they're still
alive and I talk to them every day, but
they haven't posted a single thing in 6
years. They've gotten married, they've
had children, and they haven't posted in
6 years. Um and so again, we can make
the argument as to did people start
posting less, so the algorithms changed?
Did the algorithms change, so people
started posting less? All of this to
say, Instagram's like,
"People are existing in the DMs. People
are using Instagram for the DMs."
>> what you're saying. And there's I have
friends, too, that I follow. They're
like, there's almost no life on their
account, but they consume, share, and
talk to people.
>> Yes, one of my one of my best friends
it's gotten to the point where I've
almost had to send him to rehab, where
he sends me so many Reels that I'm like,
"You need to chill."
And then every 3 weeks he deletes his
Instagram for a week, and then he comes
back a week later and he's like, "I'm
better now." And during that week, he's
sending me YouTube Shorts. I'm like,
"You're no better. You're just on a
different platform."
>> Yes, texting me YouTube Shorts. And then
he said, "I'm deleting YouTube Shorts."
He started sending me LinkedIn videos.
>> Yeah, okay.
>> But anyways, uh the the case in point is
that's how most people use Instagram.
That most people are using Instagram to
send Reels, to have DM conversations, to
chat in the messages, and then Instagram
says, "Hey, if we can get them to do
that, then maybe they'll see the
occasional ad in their feed as well."
Right? They still have to scroll through
Reels to find the things to send. And
so, all of this to say, shares, but also
content that generates DMs, uh content
that generates conversations, Instagram
Stories, that is really Instagram's focus.
focus.
>> What is a trial Reel?
>> Uh yeah, the trial Reel it was touted as
the holy grail, and I think it's
somewhere in the middle. It's a helpful
thing. So, what a trial Reel is, it's a
unique thing that Instagram created,
where you can post a Reel that will not
be shown to any of your existing
followers. So, it's only shown to new
people, right? And there's a clear benefit
benefit
to that from a marketing perspective. I
can test things out. I can trial things,
hence the name trial reels. But, what a
lot of people, myself included, very
quickly figured out is this is like
being a baseball player who cannot
strike out. I can swing all I want,
willy-nilly. Maybe I make a contact one
out of 100 times, but who cares? Because
I just have unlimited at bats or
opportunities to reach new people.
Instagram was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Maybe we let the floodgates open a
little bit too much on this one." And
so, now they've throttled it down, so
you can only post it varies per account,
which is annoying. Some accounts can
post only five per day. Some can post up
to 25 per day. But, it's still
represents How many can you post? Five.
>> How many do you post? >> Five.
>> Five.
>> Every day?
>> Yeah, I try to. Um
I I I've This is another layer that we
can talk about, but when they first
launched, you had to manually post every
single one.
And that was a huge challenge, right?
Because I have a team, I have a business
to run, and so I'm not just going to be
sitting there on Instagram posting my
five trial reels a day. Now, tools like
Metricool can schedule them, and
Instagram actually recently opened up
the ability in Instagram, in the app, to
schedule your trial reels. So, that's
that's really helpful.
Um but again, I think that they're best
used as an opportunity to test out
ideas. So, if you're like, "Hey, I have
these two different hooks. I'm not sure
which one." Post them both as a trial
and see which one wins.
If I have three different ways that I
edited this video, post all three and
see which one wins, right?
>> Are some of your videos trial tests that
eventually were flipped public?
>> Yes and no. So, here's the hack. Here's
what everyone gets wrong about trial
reels. Is if a trial reel does well,
they upgrade it or they flip it or
whatever word you want to use, and they
put it onto their normal feed. They
transfer it to their normal feed. That's
not the way I would recommend doing
things, and here's why. If I post it as
a trial reel on Monday, it goes viral on
Thursday, and on Friday I upgrade it. On
Friday, it does not show up on my feed
for all of my followers to see as a new
post. It shows that I posted it 5 days ago.
ago.
So it it's more likely to get buried. So
what I recommend doing is, hey, it's
proven itself, it's going to do well,
the people like it, they're eating it
up, just take that exact same video and
create a copy of it, duplicate it,
probably duplicate it before posting it
so that you just have it in the backlog
ready to go, and post it as a new reel,
an actual original reel. One caveat I do
want to do that say about this is you
cannot do this in reverse. So you cannot
take something that you've previously
posted on your normal feed and post it
as a trial reel. Originally you were
able to do that,
>> Meaning it violates conditions or it'll
flag it.
>> Uh it will Instagram will allow you to
post it, but once you do, you'll get a
notification that says, "Sorry, this is
viewed as duplicate content and we will
not be showing this to new people." And
the Instagram pendulum has swung way
overboard in this, where even if you
have something that's brand new, this
happened to a lot of people and they
have never posted it before, Instagram's
like, "Whoa, this is a duplicate."
You're like, "No, it's not. I've never
posted this." So it's an overcorrection
by Instagram. I'm sure the pendulum will
swing back and it will that the tools
will get better at determining what
actually is a duplicate, but the long
and short of it is, if it's posted to
your trials, you're good to post it to
the feed. If it's posted to your feed,
you should not also post it as a trial.
>> Are you I mean, I followed you and one
of the big opportunities for listeners
is like, okay,
Instagram's a great place to make money,
get leads, build a following, build a
personal brand. But all this stuff, man,
it takes work. >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> One of my favorite strategies from you
though is like, never post a reel once. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Schedule immediately if you're about to
post a reel to repost it in 60 to 90 days.
days. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So you're going to have this compounding
stack of new content, but also
repurposed content. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> But in light of what you're just saying
about trial reels, terms of
service-wise, are we allowed to do that?
>> Yes. Yes. So I asked I asked Mosseri
about this in my interview with him. I
said, "Are we good to do this?" He said,
"Yes, because it's your content. You
have the right to it." They had to make
this change for trial reels because
marketers were spamming the system
because they recognized I could post 300
of the exact same trial reel over and
over and over again, and even if each
one of these only gets a thousand views,
if I post it 300 times, that's 300,000 views.
views. Yeah.
Yeah.
And so they were like, okay, we need to
kind of reel things in a little bit. But
on your feed,
they recognized that if you were to post
the exact same video 300 times in a day,
everyone would just unfollow you. And
the algorithm would learn like, hey,
we're not going to show this to anybody.
And so yeah, you're free. Yeah, you're
free to to re-upload over and over and
over again as much as you want.
>> though, do you literally repost
every reel you post or only the winners?
>> Every reel. Because, like we talked
about earlier, there's something that
you're like, man, this is going to go
viral and it doesn't. Maybe there's
something going on that day. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, maybe there was maybe there
was a big cultural event. Maybe everyone
was paying attention to something else.
Maybe there was Who knows? There's so
many different factors. And so what I
say is post it at least three times
before you let it strike out. Basically,
give it three three three swings at at
the bat. And if all three times that you
post it, it flops and fails, then you
can say like, okay, I'm going to shelf
this post or I'm going to revisit it.
Why did it not work? But sometimes it's
the third post, the third time where I
post it where I then it goes viral. Then
it spikes and goes crazy and I'm glad
that I had
posted it that third time and not just
pre-judged it and predetermined that it
was going to flop.
>> Is it worth doing solo
photo posts with captions?
>> Rarely. Rarely. I'd much rather have a
carousel, even if it's just a two-slide carousel.
carousel.
And the algorithmic reason for that is
that the second slide of the carousel
can reappear in people's feed.
It's kind of like I think, correct me if
I'm wrong, if YouTube does this. You
know, you have like multiple thumbnails
that you might be testing. If I don't
click on the video the first time
YouTube shows me it, it will show me it
again with the second thumbnail.
Same exact idea. So it'd be like, well,
why would we not at least give it a
second thumbnail? Why would we at least
not give a second slide in the carousel?
Um in most cases that's that's what I
would recommend instead of just a still.
>> Is Instagram live still a good strategy?
>> No. No. No. Yeah, Instagram live you can
like take it off your to-do list, take
it off your thing. It's It's not
evergreen. There's a very very very
small niche market who can use it very
effectively, like live sellers or people
who already have a large audience, but
the real limitation with Instagram live
is it doesn't reach new people. So the
only people who are finding it are
existing followers or there's like a
random straggler who finds your page at
the exact moment that you're live. Um
and there are some really niche
strategies that you could use like DM
automation on an Instagram live. That
could be powerful and I've done that
before where I'm on live on Instagram
and I say, "Hey, comment the word live
or comment the word send and I'll send
you the ticket to our upcoming event."
That's possible, but again, it requires
a a big enough audience to begin with to
actually have people show up on the live.
live.
>> There's kind of a newer feature called
like repost which was similar to when
Twitter was called Twitter retweet.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Is it effective? What does it do?
>> When you press repost, if I see a Sean
Cannell post and I press repost, it's my
way of telling the algorithm, "Hey
algorithm, I want my followers to
potentially see this." It's kind of like
a a
I can suggest to the algorithm that I
think my followers would be interested
in this. It doesn't guarantee it.
Reposting your own stuff does absolutely
nothing because you already posted it.
You've already told the algorithm, "I
want my followers to see this." So
reposting your own things doesn't do anything.
anything.
>> still do that, huh?
>> They do. It's not going to hurt. It's
not going to hurt.
>> guy on So then it's all it also feels
like somewhat of a social proof. If I
see somebody else's thing, I can see a
few faces, but it's usually people I
follow. So I'm like, "Oh, my friends are
into this, too."
>> Exactly. Exactly. And so there's a
little bit of social proof to it that
yes, your uh profile bubble will kind of
float over the bottom left corner of the
post if you've reposted it. Um but
algorithmically speaking, when repost
first launched, we were like, "Holy
schnikes! This is going to be just like
a share, right? Because it's putting
posts in front of more eyeballs,
but reposts have nothing to do with the
DMs. If I repost your post, there's no
conversation being started. There's no
direct message happening. And so, again,
going back to what Instagram's North
Star is, it doesn't really connect. And
so, all of this to say, reposts don't
really make a huge difference.
>> Let's get into a few more tactics, and I
actually want to hear about some of the
biggest mistakes. But, one of the things
we've benefited from it, Think Media and
I have personally, is being a part of
your community called Insta Flub. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Now, uh I wanted to make sure if people
want to check that out. I think you have
a trial to that.
>> Yeah, we do.
>> People can go to uh I mean, it's like
seven bucks for 14 days. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Um you could go to uh iggrowthguide.com,
or we'll put a link to that in the
description. But, what exactly are you
guys doing in that community?
>> Yeah. We try to not just like lead a
horse to water, but lead a horse to
water, put the straw in the horse's
mouth, and then cheer for it while it
drinks the water. Um
so, the way that we do that is we have a
course, five courses in one, that vary
depending on what level you're on. So,
when you join the club, you take this
assessment, because there are people
watching today who are like, you know,
get into the advanced stuff, Sean. Like,
I want to get into And then, there are
some people who are like, "Trial reels?
What are we talking about? This is a
different language." Those two people
should not be taking the same course.
So, we have five different courses in
one. Also part of that assessment is we
figure out what your niche is, what your
production style is, what your resources
are, and we actually create a custom
content calendar for every single one of
our members. Every single person in the
club gets a 30-day personalized calendar
of here's what you should post. And
then, of course, we have, you know, live
trainings and workshops and templates
and all of that. But, that's how, you
know, you started today by mentioning
that I get 15 million views a month, and
I'm proud of that. What I'm even more
proud of is that our average member
gains 15,000 followers per year. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Um almost over 500 in their first 30
days. And so, we get them results, or we
help them get results uh by giving them
everything that they could possibly
need. So, all they have to do is, in
your words just hit record.
>> Yeah, I love that. And I mean
it's one thing to you know, as a
marketer talk about the talking points
of your product, but to share the
transformation of your clients and your
students with real numbers like that is incredible.
incredible.
>> Yeah, I'm really proud of them. They're
kicking butt.
>> So you get to coach all these
individuals that are specifically doing
Instagram. I'm curious the biggest
pitfalls and mistakes
where you see people
that's sabotaging their growth and
they're not getting the followers or the
views because they are doing these
things that are fixable.
>> Inconsistency is the obvious one.
Inconsistency often comes from burnout.
My hot take is that burnout does not
come from posting too much. It comes
from overthinking, overanalyzing, and
over-refining every post you make. And
so my three famous words are just press
post. Just press post and then you can
also press post again 60 to 90 days
later, 60 to 90 days after that. Um but
that will ultimately allow you a lot
more freedom and a lot more
Okay, I'm just I have a post and for the
damn I'm just going to post it. I'm not
going to try to make it perfect. And I
think that a tactical way that people
can do this is if they're watching
today's episode and they do not
currently have 7 days at least of
pre-scheduled pre-made content, they
should not post today. They should not
post tomorrow. They should not post for
the week. They should not post again
until they have 7 days scheduled. So if
that means take 2 weeks or 3 weeks or 4
weeks off of posting in order to batch
create, do that.
>> And the reason for that is
>> then they will get off the hamster wheel
of wake up every day, what am I going to
post today? Come up with a new idea,
create it, overanalyze, agonize over it,
press post, it flops. That is such a
demanding, draining, negative feedback
loop. And then what happens when life
happens? What happens when the boys are
being boys? What happens when, you know,
something goes wrong and then you you
don't have a post that day and now
you've become inconsistent. Your
competition and everyone else out there
did post that day, but you didn't. Um
and I say all this because the more you
post, the more you grow. On Instagram,
there's a direct correlation. Twice a
day, three times a day, four times a
day. There's examples of accounts
posting over 100 times a day, and they
are growing the fastest. So, ultimately,
if it is that frequency that's going to
determine your growth, then why are you
banking on, I hope I have an inspiration
tomorrow. I hope I have enough
motivation tomorrow. Batch your content,
then you're out ahead of things, and
then you don't have to create every day.
You can create when you're inspired,
when you're feeling good, looking good,
when life is allowing you a 30-minute
window to film a quick reel, um, and
that will allow you to stay a lot more consistent.
consistent.
>> What is the importance of Instagram stories?
stories?
>> Yeah. Instagram stories, uh, brings me
back to something you brought up
earlier, which is the know, like, and
trust factor. >> [snorts]
>> [snorts]
>> Instagram stories are where people go to
know, like, and trust you better. And
so, they might see one of your posts in
their feed. It's a quick tip about your
thumbnail. It's a quick tip about
YouTube. And they're like, "Oh, that's
cool. I I want to grow on YouTube this
year, so I'm going to follow this guy."
They click follow. First, they're
probably going to check out your page.
They're going to see your bio. It
mentions it's YouTube. It's They see
YouTube in a bunch of all your other
posts. Okay, I'm going to follow Sean.
Then, because they followed you,
Instagram's like, "Do you want to check
out this guy's stories?" Then they watch
your stories and they're like, "Oh, he's
a dad. Oh, he snowboards. Oh, he's into
faith." You know, they they see all this
other stuff. They're like, "Ooh, I like
his style." And then, they're like,
"Okay, now I'm trying to like this guy.
I'm going to keep tuning into his
stories." And so, Instagram stories are
a place to let your freak flag fly.
They're a place to build that trust, and
because of all of that, they're also a
really powerful place to sell. Right?
And so, it's a place where people can
really get to know you, trust you. And
then you're like, "Hey, you know, I've
really been struggling with X, Y, and
Z." Or, "I I was working with a client
the other day, and they were they had
this problem, so I created this. I have
this guide. I have this solution. I have
this new YouTube video. I have this new
podcast." And people are like, "I love
Sean. I love all his content. I I relate
to him. I connect to him. I'm going to
click on that without even having to
hear the sales pitch. I'm going to sign
up without even having to read the sales page."
page."
Uh, so I think that Instagram stories
are really really powerful place to
build the trust and then also convert on
the trust.
>> Um I want to talk about one big
final category
that might go lots of different
directions, which is not just how to
monetize best practices for making
money, but also making money with a
small audience. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Uh but before we get there, as kind of
like the part final of today's podcast,
I do want to make sure people can follow
you and check you out. Of course, easy
enough for people to um
know that we always have great show
notes in the description, you know. But
anything you want to shout out, anything
people can um where they can find you?
>> Yeah, Instagram Brock 11 Johnson. I post
75 million times a day and so there's
plenty of strategies, ideas, and tips,
and stuff for free. And as my YouTube
coach, we've recently uh hit 100k on
YouTube, so thank you so much for all
your guidance there. That's been uh in
the works for a while, and so I
appreciate all your tips and help. And
we're Build Your Tribe on YouTube, where
every week uh
at least once a week there's some sort
of tip, strategy, video about growing on
usually growing on Instagram.
>> Yeah, I appreciate your kind words. Congratulations.
Congratulations.
>> So great resources as usual in the show
notes of the Think Media Podcast, but
we're not done. We're going to talk
about making money. So on Instagram
specifically, before money, cuz it kind
of ties into it,
you know, you're the Instagram guy, but
what I love is we we've been
In these last couple months, we've been
collabing, because we're both kind of
like all in on YouTube and Instagram or
Instagram and YouTube. And those two
things kind of work together. What
synergy do you see there? Maybe that
ties to the money connection
conversation, I should say. Or maybe it
ties to
just a lot of humans are both. I mean, a
lot of consumers, you know, I I connect
with friends on Instagram, I scroll,
it's entertaining, it's a different
platform. I also watch YouTube. Of
course, there's people who love TikTok
and Snapchat, but yeah, your thoughts on
the the
your workflow between those two platforms.
platforms.
>> Yeah, I love the synergy between the
two. I'd be curious
what your audience split is like cuz I
was talking to my mom who she's not just
a random mother, she's been on the show before.
before.
She is I guess today you could call her
a fitness creator. Her her niche changes
every few months with the wind.
But we were talking the other day and I
was like, "Hey, my YouTube audience is
completely different than my Instagram
audience. Different demographics.
There's you know core fans who are
followers on both, but my YouTube
audience skews more male, it skews
younger. My Instagram audience skews
more female, it skews older.
And she was like, "Yeah, same. Like the
people who follow me on Instagram,
the majority don't also subscribe to my
YouTube. There's the super fans, but I'm
wondering first of all for you, do you
notice the same thing or or
>> Well, it's funny listening to you talk.
All what Ash told me to do is to do my
research cuz I make now I'm super
fascinated. No, actually I don't know
that we've directly analyzed that.
Secondly, it made me ask a very tactical
question, which is is there an easy way
to see your Instagram analytics? Maybe
uh more specifically, is there a desktop
way to see them?
>> I think you can view it on desktop now.
Um I believe on the Instagram just
instagram.com on desktop you can now
view your professional dashboard. They
have the best they they've been smart
about this. Uh their best analytics
dashboard is in the edits app cuz they
want people to download the edits app.
So if you go there, then you can see
like really fine-tooth stuff.
>> What's the edits app?
>> Uh it's their their editing it's their
CapCut competitor. So it's their
mobile-only app that is directly tied to
Instagram. All of Instagram's audios and
stuff are in there. If you save a post
on Instagram, it will show up in the
edits app. Um it's actually gotten a lot
better. When it first launched, I was
not a fan, but now I use it for like
quick edits for reels and stuff. But
that's the app where you can find like
more advanced analytics.
>> Okay, so interesting. So I I don't have
a good answer for you, but you we're
talking about the difference of
audiences. Some crossover, some you
know, of course isolated individuals
that only follow you one place or the
other. But then bringing it back then,
what's the best monetization strategies
do you think or what How do you coach
people when they start thinking I want
to get on Instagram and make money?
>> Yeah. Yeah. I also do want to say I have
seen a really great conversion between
Instagram and YouTube and vice versa. Um
it's definitely been an awesome boost to
my YouTube to have a large Instagram
audience to kind of feed subscribers
early on. And now I'm getting all these
subscribers and messages from people who
are like, "I love your YouTube channel.
I've only followed you on YouTube for 2
years and now I follow you on
Instagram." Which is really cool to see.
>> cool to How do you actually do that? Get
them from one place to the other.
>> Yeah. Um so on YouTube, just telling
them here's my Instagram channel,
subscribe to me there, follow me there,
and here's why. Giving them like the
specific what I post, why would they
want to follow me on Instagram? And I
think the benefit there is like
Instagram is a lot of daily content,
right? You're getting little snippets,
you're getting a little
uh uh goldfish tray every single day on
Instagram, whereas you're getting the
full buffet on YouTube once a week. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um and then on Instagram, of course
there's the full buffet on YouTube, but
I think there's some really creative
ways that you can promote your YouTube
channel. I think if you just take a
7-second or 43-second snippet from a
podcast and you throw it up on your
Instagram, people are going to be like,
"What?" It's going to lack context,
they're going to be super confused. But
there are some creative formats that
we've seen really work for getting
people to from Instagram to YouTube. And
we can talk about those, but I know you
asked me about monetization. Um so I
think one misconception with
monetization is you don't need a big audience.
audience. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> One of our members uh recently had a
$35,000 launch in 1 weekend. She's got
957 followers. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> So not even 1,000 followers. Um
she's got really great trust with her
audience. She's super niche down. She
only talks about one super hyper
specific topic. And so when it comes
time to sell her mastermind, they know
she's good for it. They know they can
count on her. They know she's reliable
for that topic. Um she's also very heavy
in the DMs. Ton of DM conversations,
qualifying leads, answering questions,
serving, focusing on the transformation,
not just the the transaction.
>> Herself, too, not as a a bot.
>> Not as a bot. That does bring me to
ManyChat and DM automation, which is
that's like a non-negotiable. That's
like uh if you were uh trying to grow a
YouTube channel and you didn't have
thumbnails made, you just kind of picked
a random snippet from the
>> You're not even deciding to do thumbnails.
thumbnails.
>> I'm I'm not going to worry about that.
>> Like no, that's not actually a choice if
you want to uh you know
>> I'm just going to do uh IMG_003.mov.
Like that's yeah.
>> I'm not doing titles, either. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> They're going to find it, they're going
to find it.
>> Exactly. I'm going to let them do it the
right way. No, DM automation is a
non-negotiable, and that's everyone's
seen it now. It's the thing where it's
like, "Comment guide, and I'll send you
my free guide. Comment recipe, and I'll
send you the full details." That sort of thing.
thing.
>> Is ManyChat the only solution for that?
>> No, there are there are others. There
are uh less expensive options. ManyChat
is the most trusted. It's over a million
users. Uh it's an official partner of
Meta, which means that they don't just
like access Meta's API, they're like
literally shaking hands with with Meta.
Um and so that's that's a big difference
maker. They're very safe. Um and they
have most of the advanced features.
There are some like fringe tools that
have crazy advanced features, but
ManyChat has every feature you need and
a few features that are really powerful
that most people don't even use. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
Okay, so that's
that's
Break it down, though, uh just for
anything else tactically. If I want to
go to Instagram
Do you you make money from Instagram
itself? How much do they pay you?
>> I believe I I shouldn't say exactly
zero. I believe I get
maybe 50 to 60 bucks a month for, again,
15 million plus views. Their
monetization is atrocious. It is so bad,
especially when you compare it to
uh YouTube. Yeah. Um even when you
compare it to something like TikTok, it
is atrocious. Um so what I always tell
people is if you just want to get paid
for your content, go to YouTube. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Don't try to post on Instagram because
Instagram don't pay for content. There
was like a brief period. They went way
overboard. It was called Reels Bonuses
Program back in like 2022 or 3. It's cuz
they wanted people to start using Reels.
>> a second they were like giving us
>> offering 35,000
a month. And I believe last time I was
on your show, we talked about how my dog
Mila was paying our rent. She was using
the Reels Bonuses Program and her Reels
were going viral, viral, viral. We were
making like five figures, six a month.
>> old days.
>> From from our dog's Instagram Reels,
right? And then Instagram was like,
"Hey, so this isn't sustainable." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like they literally Adam Mosseri, the
head of Instagram, was like, "Yeah, we
we can't keep paying people this much."
He's publicly said numerous times like
this we need to figure out a way to make
it work, but they haven't yet. Which is
makes me scratch my head cuz like
YouTube figured it out, just do what
they did. You're Instagram, you copy
everyone else, just copy what YouTube
did with monetization. But no, I I don't
really get paid by Instagram.
>> Got it. So your point is ManyChat, take
the conversation off the platform, and
then figure out your monetization strategy.
strategy.
>> Yeah, you the course, a coaching,
membership, merch, whatever it may be.
>> Can affiliate marketing even work on Instagram?
Instagram?
>> It can, and that's actually a really
exciting brand new feature that was just
announced. Instagram is now going to
allow clickable links on Reels for the
first time ever, only through their
built-in affiliate program.
So it's not exactly clear yet what
products are going to be in their
program. It's going to be similar to
TikTok Shop, but I believe
>> Yeah, absolutely. It's going to be I
think a little bit more broad. It's not
going to be like super specific to the
products that are in the shop. Um
I believe there might even be a way to like
like
suggest products to be added or kind of
like say, "Hey, Instagram, I want to
talk about this." It's not clear yet cuz
they just announced it. But that is
going to be big, and that is going to be
a way that people can monetize right on
Instagram without needing a website or
their own products. But I'm a huge fan
of affiliate marketing and I do think
it's a powerful, powerful way to get started.
started.
>> Okay, so in just a second I kind of want
to ask the final question and um
um
this I think could be the most important
question, but a couple things
uh great resources as usual. ManyChat
for every serious professional that's
active on Instagram, if you have
something to sell, I mean even content
creators, if you're business-minded,
you're going through that we talk about
the five stages of YouTube success.
It's just one of those tools if you're
active on Instagram to grab ManyChat.
We'll make sure it's down there. Uh
check out the club. I mean, that's
probably the best $7 you could spend for
14 days because if it's 500 followers in
a month, that's 250 new followers for
seven bucks. Obviously got to do the
work. No results guaranteed, but cool
trial and so we'll have a link to
InstaClubHub, your community and
coaching program to help people crush it
on Instagram and then your social media
as well. My next question is just the
future and last question. Like when it
comes to the future, you've been through
so many different genera- generations or
algorithms, trends, the Reels bonus and
your dog paying your rent, you know.
Um but like where do you see the future
of Instagram and and the opportunity and
even challenges ahead and how people
should navigate?
>> Yeah. I think that with the rise of AI,
which is something we haven't even
touched on today,
um the
bar or I should say the the ease of
creating really professional content,
really really beautiful content, um it's
going to get a lot easier. It's going to
be a million times easier.
And we think about Instagram 2016, if
you had a cool filter on your photo, you
were getting likes cuz it was like,
"Man, this looks pretty. This looks
polished. This looks put together." And
that's why Instagram has the uh the
stigma that it still does to this day.
But over the last 10 years, everyone's
been like, "Hey, I can download a
99-cent app. I can download a free app
and get those same filters. I can edit
my photos. It doesn't take a a rocket
scientist." And now we have AI where I
can tell ChatGPT to make it look a
certain way. And so I think that the
the vanity or the aesthetics of your
content is going to matter so much less
and less and less and less and it is
going to be the value that you're providing.
providing.
And when I say value, that's often
misinterpreted as education. But like we
talked about earlier, value can be
entertainment. Right? On the drive here
today, I was I wasn't watching a YouTube
video while I was driving, I was
listening to it, but I had a YouTube
video up. And it wasn't educational, but
it was it was entertaining. And every
time I go on a long drive, I I put on a
YouTube video. And that is valuable to
me because it's giving me joy and
allowing me to pass the time. And so
anyways, all this to say,
I want everyone listening to embrace the
raw, the real, the imperfect, rip the
band-aid off. Like embrace what makes
you uniquely you, even if that's
something that's flawed or mistaked or
or or filled with with imperfections
because that is what makes you human,
that is what makes you unique, and that
is what we're all craving. Like we all
go on Instagram craving someone real who
I can just relate to, someone who I is
talking me like a human being, who's not
talking me like a newscaster from 1970
with a polished filter and some AI edit
on top. Like if if you're a great
content creator and you really want to
make that professional cinematic stuff,
knock your socks off. If that's your
creative outlet, knock your socks off.
But for most brands and business owners,
stop trying to make it perfect and
polished and make it posted.
>> Brock Johnson, thank you so much for
coming back on the podcast, Think Media
podcast. Like, rate, share, review
wherever you watch or listen. My name is
Sean Cannell, your guide to building a
profitable YouTube channel, and I will
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