0:04 Today I had my friend Dr. Peter Serno
0:06 back on the program and as a change of
0:09 pace we talked all about borderline
0:11 personality disorder. We talked about
0:13 splitting. We talked about what it's
0:15 like to have borderline parents to be in
0:17 a romantic relationship with a
0:20 borderline. And we even got introduced
0:23 to Dr. Serno's famous cat. So make sure
0:24 you look out for that, too. But with
0:26 that, I hope you enjoy my conversation
0:30 with Dr. Serno as much as I did.
0:33 All right. Today my guest is again Dr.
0:35 Peter Serno. How are you today, Peter?
0:37 I'm doing well. How are you, Jared?
0:39 Living the dream over here. Always a
0:40 pleasure to have you on. Yeah, it's a
0:42 pleasure to be here. I do have a a
0:43 little guest who's going to make a debut
0:46 because I know that she made a
0:48 auditory appearance
0:51 um on our last interview. So, this is
0:53 Winter. She's the one who was making the noise.
0:54 noise.
0:56 I love her. She looks exactly like my
0:58 mom's cat, too. She's got one named
1:01 Shale. the same breed it looks like. So
1:04 anyway, she wanted to introduce herself
1:06 to the people who heard her in the
1:08 background from our last interview. She
1:10 was very popular in that one. A lot of
1:12 comments were talking about her. I know
1:14 it's actually lunchtime for her, so we
1:17 might hear her again once she realizes
1:19 that. So that's awesome. Now, today to
1:22 warn people, we probably will get under
1:24 some people's skin today because we're
1:26 going to talk about
1:29 BPD. And there seems to be a lot of push
1:32 back about people who talk about BPD,
1:34 especially if it's BPD women, too. And
1:36 people, and I think this is a good thing
1:38 to go over to start with it, people seem
1:41 to outsource all of the abusive
1:44 behaviors in cluster B to narcissism or
1:46 like antisocial personality disorder,
1:49 but no one feels comfortable telling the
1:52 truth about border lines.
1:54 Yeah, I would agree with that. And I
1:58 think, you know, the the the prevalence
2:01 estimates when it comes to men and women
2:03 are actually very similar. They're very
2:08 close. I think the latest is like 46%
2:11 men, so 54% women. So, it's it's almost
2:14 down. It's it's pretty close in in
2:18 in being equal. And also, those can be
2:21 based on clinical populations
2:23 um and general population. So, it's not
2:25 necessarily 100% accurate. Those are
2:27 obviously always estimates. But when I
2:29 talk about BPD, I'm I'm not I'm talking
2:31 about the men and the women. So I think
2:33 that's also important because it it
2:36 matters for our discussion today because
2:39 some of the way that it presents it
2:41 makes a difference in in in the sex as
2:46 well as far as uh behavior. Um but we'll
2:49 we'll we'll certainly get into that. Um
2:51 and I think to start also with
2:54 narcissism is is there an equal amount
2:56 would you say of male and female
2:58 narcissists or pretty close? I
3:00 personally think that that's the case,
3:03 but but if we're going on the same um
3:06 the same uh
3:08 prevalence, I'd say that it's been
3:12 documented that it's like typically 75%
3:14 male, 25% female that that it's
3:18 documented as. Um but I don't believe
3:20 that these are I don't believe that
3:22 psychological traits have anything to do
3:24 with sex or gender. I believe that they
3:26 have to do with our human DNA. So, I
3:27 believe that for the most part, they're
3:29 probably equal across the board.
3:33 Um, you know, I know that um with when
3:36 it comes to uh histrionic personality
3:38 disorder, for example, which is in the
3:40 same category, same classification of as
3:42 borderline narcissism and and
3:44 antisocial, it's less spoken about, but
3:46 the the prevalence has been estimated to
3:48 be right down the middle. It's 50/50
3:51 among men and women. Um, I think there's
3:54 more antisocial offenders who have been
3:56 caught that are male, so that prevalence
3:58 is also a bit skewed as a result of
4:02 that. Um, but there certainly are
4:05 female and male psychopaths and
4:07 antisocial personalities, right? And
4:09 that's how I've seen it, too. I've
4:10 always thought there's a pretty close
4:13 amount of male and female narcissists
4:15 and male and female border lines, too,
4:17 for that matter. That's how I've seen it
4:20 because it's not a gendered thing. And
4:22 I've heard a doctor say the other day,
4:25 some people think narcissism and
4:27 borderline are gendered expressions of
4:30 the same dysfunction. And I don't agree
4:32 with that at all. Yeah, I disagree with
4:34 that completely. There's no empirical
4:36 evidence to support that claim. There's
4:39 also I heard uh somebody sent me a video
4:43 the other day related to um BPD being
4:47 solely caused by uh exposure to
4:50 narcissists. And so it's like the it's
4:53 like the inversion of it in a way and
4:56 where it's caused by being around
4:59 narcissists and then it's this
5:02 self-directed assault or attack um where
5:05 you self-destruct as a result of being extremely
5:06 extremely
5:10 um uh warm and empathic and nurturing
5:11 and then the narcissist just sort of
5:13 stealing all of that from you. And
5:16 that's also categorically untrue.
5:17 There's no evidence to support that
5:19 claim. Yeah, I saw I think I saw what
5:22 you're talking about. Dr. Orion Teraban,
5:24 I broke it down because he was saying
5:26 something very similar and he said a lot
5:28 of things about many things I disagreed
5:31 with and I broke that down too. He was
5:33 saying, yeah, male and female, male
5:36 narcissist, female border lines. Now,
5:37 one thing I've heard about border lines
5:39 is some women who have given me push
5:42 back, they said it's a misogynistic
5:44 diagnosis. What would you say to the
5:46 people who say that?
5:49 Well, again, that's 100% not true
5:51 because we just talked about the
5:53 prevalence being equal.
5:56 Um, we're not talking
5:58 about women or men behaving in a certain
6:00 way because they're men or women. We're
6:03 talking about psychological traits that
6:06 all human beings uh possess and that
6:09 some human beings depending on uh
6:11 differences in the DNA sequence and
6:14 variations of that um have more or less
6:16 of as a result of a lot of random
6:18 effects. Right?
6:20 So, I you know, you know me as somebody
6:23 who promotes and supports um behavioral
6:26 genetics and this kind of missing piece
6:28 that's been dismissed or neglected
6:30 outright in in favor of environmental
6:32 determinism in psychology. And I'm
6:35 trying to, you know, promote that. Well,
6:37 we're missing something that's the most
6:39 influential component and that's been
6:42 ignored um at least in popular media in
6:44 a lot of research, too. But we're
6:48 talking about um traits that everybody
6:51 who is a human being shares. And then
6:54 when we talk about personality dis
6:57 disorder, we're talking about variations
6:59 in the trait expression that are on the
7:02 highly deficient end of the continuum or
7:05 highly severely uh excessive end of the
7:06 continuum. And that's
7:09 really what we're talking about when we
7:12 refer to disorder. So, it's not that
7:15 only border lines have impulsivity and
7:16 aggression. It's that the way they have
7:18 it and the amount that they have it, the
7:20 severity, the intensity, the frequency
7:23 of the expression would make somebody uh
7:28 borderline and and somebody who is
7:30 somewhere in the middle would be more
7:34 what we refer to as neurotypical, right?
7:35 So, we're not talking about you have
7:38 these things that no one else has and
7:40 that's why you have a problem. What
7:43 we're talking about is the intensity,
7:46 the severity, the frequency, the amount,
7:48 right? We're talking about quantity, if
7:51 you will, not quality, not either or.
7:53 It's how much of or how little of
7:56 something. And you put those traits
7:59 together and you create
8:01 um based on
8:05 research, 50 plus years of research that
8:09 shows how these traits are heritable and
8:12 they're across the world. You know,
8:14 they're they're not just happening in
8:15 certain environments, they're happening
8:18 in all environments. Um, that's really
8:20 what I'm talking about when I when I
8:21 speak of these disorders is is trait
8:24 deficiencies and trait excesses that
8:26 create enduring pervasive patterns of
8:28 behavior across the lifespan and that
8:30 are highly inflexible.
8:32 Where do you think the confusion begins
8:35 with BPD?
8:38 So, I mean BPD has its own confusing
8:41 history in in psychology and in
8:42 psychological literature and in research.
8:43 research.
8:46 Originally the term borderline comes
8:50 from the and this is no longer the case.
8:51 So I want to emphasize that but it comes
8:54 from the idea that certain individuals
8:57 ride the borderline between neuro being
8:59 neurotic and then venturing into
9:01 psychosis. Okay, that's the original
9:04 term for border. That's the borderline
9:08 neurosis to psychosis. And so it used to
9:10 be conceptualized as a psychotic
9:12 disorder where like an like a highly
9:14 neurotic person enters into these stages
9:17 of becoming psychotic. And so it was
9:19 conceptualized in a way that we no
9:21 longer conceptualize it. There's still
9:24 popular literature that that um
9:27 describes borderline as like a psychotic
9:30 anxiety, you know, um but that's just
9:32 that's no longer the case. I mean, we've
9:33 done enough research now to know that
9:35 that's really not what it is. Not all
9:39 people with borderline u uh pathology
9:42 um are considered psychotic first of all
9:45 and there's a lot more to borderline
9:47 pathology than neurosis because we're
9:48 all neurotic to a degree. We all have
9:49 internal conflicts. That's the
9:52 definition of neurosis is someone having
9:55 an internal conflict. Um we have now
9:57 seen the biological underpinnings of
10:01 these disorders. We've seen um
10:03 neurotransmission um contributions.
10:05 We've seen hormonal contributions. I
10:07 mean, it's an it's the entire operating
10:10 system, you know, it's not it's multiple
10:12 systems are at play here. So, to say
10:15 that it's just something um where these
10:17 people are just really really highly
10:18 neurotic and then they get psychotic
10:19 from time to time, it's just it's
10:22 oversimplified and highly inaccurate.
10:25 So, so the history of what it is, first
10:26 of all,
10:31 um confuses people. And then also um
10:33 there's been a lot of research recently
10:35 to suggest that what we have um
10:37 historically considered to be the
10:41 vulnerable narcissism subtype of of NPD
10:44 is really borderline personality because
10:48 90% identical in trait facets and
10:52 domains and in criterion variables. So
10:54 we're we're just learning a lot more
10:57 about these things. I would say that um
11:00 vulnerable narcissism has been um
11:03 applied to men historically who are
11:06 actually borderline in presentation. And
11:11 then um BPD has been almost exclusively
11:14 um inferred to be a a female issue, but
11:17 that's just ignorant and incorrect.
11:19 Yeah. And like I agree with that, too.
11:21 There's plenty of male border lines. I
11:23 had thought I had something similar to
11:26 it at a time as well because and we kind
11:28 of went over this last time a little bit
11:31 too, but I I am someone that is probably
11:32 on the spectrum and since it was
11:34 undiagnosed, I don't it turned into
11:37 something that looks similar in my eyes
11:39 to BPD, but it probably wasn't exactly
11:42 that. It can just maybe appear similar,
11:44 especially when there's addictions
11:46 involved. But what are the causes of BPD?
11:48 BPD?
11:50 So, first of all, there is this idea
11:52 that life adversity
11:54 um is sufficient to cause a personality disorder
11:57 disorder
12:00 and that's just not true. Okay, life
12:04 adversity by itself cannot explain the
12:06 development of a personality disorder.
12:09 What we are understanding now is um some
12:11 people are more vulnerable to developing
12:15 personality disorders based on their
12:19 temperament. And our temperament um is
12:20 sort of a
12:23 um it's not entirely fixed. It's not
12:25 like completely hardwired, but it's very
12:27 very highly influential to our
12:29 consistent patterns of behavior and
12:31 thinking and feeling perceiving across
12:35 our lifespan. So, and our temperament is
12:37 um something that we are born with,
12:40 which means that it's something that um
12:44 has developed before we're born if we're
12:47 born with it. Right? So that factor is
12:49 highly important to understanding that
12:52 like we'll say difficult, challenging or
12:55 problematic temperaments um make people
12:57 more vulnerable one to adverse life
13:00 experiences and also make people more
13:03 vulnerable to to personality pathology
13:06 because if you have a certain kind of
13:08 temperament, your perception of your
13:10 environment and then your responses to
13:13 it are going to be highly influenced by
13:14 that temperament.
13:17 And by those biological underpinnings,
13:19 the same environment for two different
13:21 people is going to be perceived and
13:23 responded to
13:26 differently very much depending on their
13:28 their temperament, which is sort of like
13:31 their startup material before any
13:34 environmental adversity. So, right. And
13:35 that's something you mentioned in your
13:37 book too about the nature and nurture of
13:40 narcissism that those inherent traits
13:41 people are going to seek out
13:44 environments because of those inherent
13:45 traits. And the example you used was
13:47 introversion. If you're introverted,
13:49 yeah, you're going to gravitate to
13:51 things that are going to make your
13:52 introversion, you're going to be more
13:54 comfortable with it. And the same thing
13:56 applies to these personality disorders
13:58 and the inherent traits involved in
14:01 them. Correct? And so when we talk about
14:03 we when we talk about disorder, it's
14:05 really important to understand that
14:10 there's no such thing as um like a a bad
14:13 gene or a disordered gene or um it's
14:16 just variations in it. Right? So again,
14:18 we want to I want to be clear some of
14:21 the traits that are typical in somebody
14:23 who has borderline personality and this
14:27 is not um something that you qualify
14:28 like either or. something that you
14:32 quantify how much or how less you know.
14:34 So when we talk about that there are
14:36 varying degrees of
14:39 impulsivity, aggression, hostility, uh
14:42 neurotic traits, um negative
14:44 affectivity. These are these are
14:46 straight from diagnostic manuals. I'm
14:47 these aren't my opinions. I'm not making
14:52 this up. Um, this is all things that
14:54 these are all things that have
14:58 been understood by
15:00 observation, clinical research studies,
15:02 replicated studies. It's just the way it
15:04 is. These aren't good or bad, right or
15:06 wrong. I'm just explaining these are the
15:08 facts. There are certain traits that we
15:11 associate with borderline personality.
15:12 There are certain traits we associate
15:14 with narcissism. There are certain
15:17 traits we associate with antisocial. Um,
15:21 so we want to look at the severity, the
15:23 frequency, the intensity of these
15:25 particular traits in individuals because
15:29 it's going to inform us um of what their
15:31 personality is like. You know, these are
15:37 so I don't know if that answered your
15:40 question. It that answers the question.
15:41 Now, what would you say to the people
15:43 that say, and people said this to me the
15:47 other day, border lines are not abusive.
15:50 What would you say to them?
15:52 Well, of course, you know, now we have
15:53 to define
15:57 abuse, but um I've never experienced
16:00 somebody who has been related to someone with
16:01 with
16:04 BPD as describing that they haven't been
16:07 abused in some way. Now, I think what
16:09 people mean by abuse is not all border
16:12 lines are physically violent. A lot of
16:14 male border lines are. This is another
16:17 um statistic that I'm not making up.
16:18 There are more male border lines
16:20 incarcerated because of their aggression
16:22 and impulsivity than there are
16:24 narcissists. So, that surprises people
16:26 to hear, but it's because with
16:28 borderline aggression and impulsivity,
16:30 there is an uncontrollable element to
16:33 that. Whereas with
16:36 narcissists, they are often so motivated
16:38 to save face and create an impression of
16:40 themselves that is not true that they
16:44 can conceal it enough to where it's
16:46 covert. Right? with border lines, they
16:48 don't have the mechanism of self-control
16:50 because of the dysregulation from all of
16:53 the other uh systems I I highlighted
16:57 earlier that they literally can't stop
17:01 themselves from becoming that violent or
17:03 that aggressive and so it gets them in
17:07 legal trouble often. Um, more males than
17:09 females actually as far as being
17:11 incarcerated for that. But that's just a
17:13 fact of biology. We're talking again
17:15 about aggression and impulsivity. We're
17:17 not talking about someone being bad or
17:19 good. I'm talk I'm not even I'm not even
17:22 creating a um a moral perspective with
17:23 these traits. I'm simply stating that
17:25 they exist. Aggression and impulsivity
17:27 exist in human beings. These individuals
17:30 who are diagnosed with BPD have more of
17:33 the of that those traits, you know.
17:37 So, um, to say that they're not abusive
17:38 and and then one of the arguments I get
17:41 a lot when I when I talk about BPD is
17:44 I'm someone says, "I'm BPD and I've
17:46 never heard a fly. I have empathy oozing
17:48 out of my pores. It's coursing through
17:51 my veins all the time. I could never
17:54 hurt. I love animals and anytime I'm
17:55 self-destructive, I'm self-destructive
17:58 to myself." Okay? To which I would I
18:01 would reply, I agree and believe I
18:02 believe that about
18:05 you. How is
18:07 self-destruction not impactful to the
18:09 ones who love you? First of all, because
18:11 if you are constantly trying to hurt
18:14 yourself, kill yourself, that's
18:16 tormenting the people who want you to be
18:19 alive and who love you. So, that's a
18:22 form of abuse is the inability to stop
18:23 self-destructing, just like the
18:26 inability to stop drinking or taking
18:29 drugs, is certainly abusive in a way to
18:31 the people who care about you. even if
18:34 you're not intentionally trying to harm
18:37 them by by the the substance use, it's
18:40 you can't deny that it's impacting them,
18:43 you know. And um
18:46 so this idea that the the that
18:47 borderline is exclusively
18:49 self-destructive and not other
18:50 destructive. There are too many
18:52 exceptions to that rule. There are
18:55 plenty of borderline individuals who um
18:57 have repeated offenses of being
18:59 physically violent, destructive,
19:01 excessive in a way where it's so
19:03 irresponsible that it's affecting the
19:05 family system.
19:09 Um, I think what people get get worked
19:13 up about when we talk about this is
19:17 borderlines do have um these periods
19:19 where they are no
19:22 longer seeing other people as the bad
19:25 object. They are seeing themselves as
19:28 the bad object and they have an
19:30 experience of profound pain and
19:33 self-loathing and emptiness that people
19:35 can only assume means
19:37 that they're
19:39 traumatized and so they're not being
19:42 abusive. They're just
19:45 being reactive to their trauma, right?
19:48 Reactive to their pain. That's not
19:50 necessarily the whole story. You know,
19:53 there there is certainly aspects of that
19:55 that can be considered true, but the
19:59 idea that um that's the only
20:01 reason why they're behaving the way they
20:03 behave when they misbehave is because of
20:04 trauma, that's
20:07 also not true. There's no there's no
20:09 evidence of that across the board,
20:10 right? And that's what they would want
20:12 you to believe. This is all just because
20:15 of my trauma. And the other thing I hear
20:18 them say a lot is they have these very
20:21 plausible explanations and defenses
20:23 about why they do what they do. And it's
20:27 sneaky because unlike many narcissists,
20:29 they'll admit they're borderline.
20:31 They'll admit that they're doing this
20:34 behavior, but then they have this wild
20:37 elaboration of why they do it. And it's
20:39 not accountability, though. It's just
20:42 this excuse about why they're doing it.
20:44 and they don't actually acknowledge the
20:47 bad behavior is in there. There's a lot
20:50 of perceptual gaps and distortions in
20:53 the in the borderline uh personality
20:55 profile. Okay? So, I'm not I'm not
20:57 singling any particular person out who
21:00 has it. Again, there's variations.
21:02 There's heterogeneity. So, the the
21:05 presentation is, you know, not it's not
21:07 one sizefits-all. You know, there's
21:09 variations in it. But what's really
21:11 important to understand is they draw emotional
21:13 emotional
21:15 conclusions before they verify facts.
21:16 And then when the facts are verified,
21:19 they they they stick to their emotional
21:21 conclusions. That's something that is
21:24 pretty um consistent with somebody who
21:26 perceives things uh through the
21:30 borderline mind is that there's a lot of
21:33 emotional conclusions drawn. But again,
21:34 when we're talking about disorder, we're
21:36 talking about perceptual gaps and
21:39 distortions. So, those aren't always
21:41 credible, you know, and we have to
21:44 factor that in. It's not an accident,
21:46 and I don't mean this as an insult. Um,
21:49 I'm a clinician. It's not an accident
21:51 that borderline is in the same
21:52 classification of disorders as
21:54 antisocial and narcissism. It's in
21:57 diagnostic manuals because of the
21:59 overlapping features. Now, people don't
22:01 like that. And there have been again
22:03 there have been proposals to remove
22:05 borderline from the personality disorder
22:08 category and reclassify it as complex
22:12 PTSD. And the truth is um in order for
22:15 that to happen the cause of the the
22:17 presentation would have to be solely
22:19 from adverse life experiences like
22:22 complex PTSD. There are distinct
22:24 differences in complex PTSD and
22:26 borderline personality. I can go over
22:27 them if you want some of the
22:30 distinctions, but they're not the same
22:32 disorder. For example, when we talk
22:35 about complex PTSD,
22:37 um, by the way, I have two cats now
22:39 coming at trying to get on camera, so
22:40 that's why I'm You can see you can show
22:42 them. They'll probably make their way
22:45 over here. Uh, so when we're talking
22:47 about complex
22:48 PTSD, individuals who have
22:51 post-traumatic stress do have difficulty
22:53 with self-regulation and calming when
22:55 they're upset. they have difficulty
22:59 grounding. That's related to a specific
23:01 um trigger or something that activated
23:04 them that is similar to the original
23:08 stimuli that traumatized them.
23:11 Okay. Borderline personalities have a
23:14 profound lack of emotional control all
23:17 around. It's not, believe it or not,
23:20 it's not just when they are feeling
23:23 provoked or triggered. It can happen out
23:26 of nowhere. They it can it can it can
23:29 manifest based on what's what what their
23:32 affect is. And a effect is related to
23:34 how pleasant or unpleasant someone feels
23:35 throughout the day and how calm or
23:37 irritable someone feels throughout the
23:40 day. And border lines have negative
23:42 affectivity, which means they typically
23:45 run unpleasant and irritable even when
23:47 they're not being environmentally
23:50 triggered. And this is kind of a sad
23:52 component to that disorder because
23:53 that's not their fault.
23:56 But it also informs their perception
23:58 throughout the day. So it doesn't really require
24:01 require
24:04 something like wronging them for them to
24:05 get to the point where they're going to
24:09 start getting emotionally dregulated.
24:10 And I think that's something that a lot
24:12 of border lines wouldn't even understand
24:16 about themselves. I think they've got it
24:19 in their heads that no, it's all just a
24:22 reaction. when some when I split, when I
24:25 act get really upset, it's because of
24:27 what someone else did. And another thing
24:29 that's interesting, and Christine Anne
24:31 Lawson said this in her book,
24:33 Understanding the Borderline Mother,
24:35 that they said they'll forget things
24:37 that happened when they were in a
24:40 different mental state. So depending on
24:42 their moods, like wherein if they're in
24:45 the black mood and then all of a sudden
24:47 they're in a good mood another day, they
24:50 forget things that were done when they
24:51 were in that other mood. Do you agree
24:54 with that? Um I believe that because
24:59 they have this um such an extreme
25:01 uncontrollable emotion dysregulation
25:03 which often involves anger and
25:06 aggression. Okay, it's not just fear,
25:08 it's anger and aggression. oftent times
25:10 they can actually move into these
25:12 dissociative states. Now it's referred
25:13 to more as like
25:15 microcsychosis. So it's not that they're
25:17 actually psychotic like a schizophrenic,
25:19 but they have these moments of like
25:22 losing touch with reality because of how
25:24 intense their emotions are and their
25:27 traits expression that they can probably
25:31 lose some time and then later on they do
25:33 what's called a disavow where they deny
25:34 the responsibility and the
25:36 accountability. they don't remember it
25:39 being that big of a deal. And so when
25:41 people give them feedback, hey, this
25:42 really hurt what you said, they'll say,
25:44 I didn't say that or I don't remember it
25:46 or I don't think that, you know, that's
25:48 exactly how it happened. And I do
25:49 believe that there's some sincerity in
25:51 that for some people that they have
25:53 actually lost access to the memory of
25:56 that. And then there's also other border
26:00 lines that intentionally accidentally
26:02 forget. This is true. and they've
26:04 admitted that to me in in my practice,
26:07 by the way, after after years of rapport
26:10 were built. I've heard astounding
26:14 confessions and admissions that I was so
26:17 pleased for them to make and I didn't
26:19 judge them for it. I commended them for
26:21 their sincerity. But sometimes that can
26:23 take years to develop the amount of
26:25 trust where someone's going to say, "I
26:27 did that because I wanted to." Right?
26:28 And that's a good step in their healing
26:31 there, too. being able to get to that
26:33 point of admitting, yeah, I did this
26:36 thing with this malicious intent because
26:38 it's never about judging them for it.
26:40 That doesn't have that doesn't hold any
26:42 weight in in clinical practice. What
26:45 holds weight is now that you know that
26:47 you can do that, we want to make sure
26:49 that you stop because it's not even in
26:50 your best self-interest to do that
26:53 anymore. And they and that makes sense
26:54 to them. It's like, you're right. I
26:55 don't want to keep blowing up these
26:58 relationships. It's not working for me.
27:01 Um so now you install the mechanisms to
27:03 which they can behave better rather than
27:05 going down the rabbit hole of their
27:08 trauma history which really doesn't help
27:10 uh border lines recover because it's not
27:13 a trauma disorder. Um the behavioral
27:15 interventions are what really help them
27:16 in the beginning is they get a handle on
27:20 how they can behave. If they can give up
27:22 threatening to kill themselves, their
27:24 relationships will improve. And you
27:27 don't have to go down why you do that in
27:29 the first place with them
27:32 because you're wasting precious time at
27:34 that point and it really doesn't matter,
27:37 you know, to a degree, right? What is
27:39 the experience like for someone with a
27:43 borderline parent growing up?
27:47 Oh, um I think that inevitably results
27:48 in complex
27:50 PTSD, you know. I think that's the
27:54 that's the um that's what happens the
28:00 cumulative trauma um of of that
28:02 discontinuous inconsistent experience
28:05 with somebody because of the dichoto the
28:08 the dichomizing and the um the
28:12 splitting. There's um so much
28:15 ambivalence and uncertainty in the minds
28:17 of children who have been raised with
28:18 such you know instability and
28:21 inconsistency where they can they can be
28:24 the a good object an idealized object
28:25 and then all of a sudden they become a
28:28 devalued bad object like really without
28:31 any provocation. I mean it wasn't really
28:33 something that they did to to deserve
28:36 the the split but that happened so
28:39 frequently on a constant basis. multiple
28:43 times within a given day. Uh that
28:46 they're just kind of torn trying to
28:48 figure out how to make sense of of these
28:52 these dichomous shifts, right?
28:55 I mean, I've heard serial killers that
28:58 had a borderline mother and and they've
29:00 killed their own mothers in some of
29:03 them, too. And because they were the all
29:06 bad child. Everything that that
29:07 borderline mother didn't like, they
29:10 would project that on to the all bad.
29:12 All good is a completely different
29:15 story. But the all bad one, they and
29:17 oftent times they would go through the
29:18 ringer. They were put through a lot.
29:20 It's it's awful to hear some of those
29:23 stories. Yeah, it is. It is. It's
29:26 terrible. Yeah. So, it's an awful
29:28 dynamic. And what would you say are the
29:30 differences between say how a
29:33 narcissistic parent acts versus a
29:36 borderline parent? So one of the main
29:40 components uh of borderline personality
29:43 is they they have dichomous thinking. So
29:45 black and white all or nothing thinking
29:47 and that again has to do with their
29:50 traits. You know their traits are are se
29:53 severe on those on the continuum. it's
29:55 defi highly deficient or highly
29:57 excessive and so that doesn't really
29:59 leave a lot of room for gray area in
30:01 their in their perceptual understanding
30:04 of reality. Right? So what happens is
30:08 they dichomize. Narcissists dichomize
30:09 too, but they
30:11 dichotoize in a very rigid and
30:15 inflexible way that is b that is putting
30:18 them in favor all the time. So the
30:22 dichotomy of narcissism is I'm all good,
30:25 you're all bad, end of story. That's the
30:28 narcissistic dichotomy. They never
30:30 redirect that back onto themselves.
30:33 Border lines do something called reverse
30:35 dichotoizing. So that's actually what
30:38 splitting means. And splitting is for
30:41 the borderline, they say, "I'm all good,
30:44 you're all bad." And then they split and
30:47 they go, I'm all bad, now you're all
30:50 good. So the
30:53 idealization like rapid cycles with the
30:55 borderline where you do become the good
30:57 object again. With narcissists, you
30:59 never are the good object ever again
31:01 once they've decided that you let them
31:04 down. You know, they may feain like you
31:06 are to win favor. They may ingratiate
31:08 you from time to time, but in their mind
31:10 you they are constantly demeaning you.
31:11 Whereas with border lines, there's a sincere
31:13 sincere
31:15 feeling and belief that you have once
31:17 again gotten back on the pedestal in
31:19 their eyes, but it's only a matter of
31:21 time before they knock the pedestal
31:24 down. So, that's one of the main
31:26 distinctions is how they dichomize. And
31:28 border lines do that reverse dichotomy
31:31 that narcissists never do. And you
31:32 mentioned splitting. What would
31:35 splitting look like in action in a
31:38 borderline's life?
31:40 Um, I'll give you I can give you an
31:43 example from an email I received
31:45 recently. I don't I don't want to
31:47 diagnose anybody. I don't have to. But,
31:50 um, basically I I received this, thank
31:53 you for your contributions to this. I'm
31:55 so happy. I feel so validated and seen.
31:58 And then it was um, so I was the all
32:02 good object, right? And then the split
32:06 happened when um they signed up for uh
32:07 my video library. I offer a video
32:10 library with some gated content. And the
32:12 I I had mentioned I was going to be
32:14 putting something on there. I was going
32:15 to upload something on there.
32:17 Apparently, I didn't do it in the
32:19 sufficient amount of time that they were
32:22 pleased with. So then the email
32:24 responses came to you falsely advertised.
32:26 advertised.
32:29 um you know, you got me to sign up for
32:32 something and you conned me and then the
32:34 here's the here's the kicker where I
32:36 became all bad. Um does this mean that
32:38 everything you've said online is also [Laughter]
32:39 [Laughter]
32:43 false? So So now and I'm not poking fun
32:46 at that person. I'm sure that they had
32:48 some internal conflict related to this,
32:51 but the expression of it was impulsive.
32:53 It was disproportionate to the thing. It
32:55 could have been simply like, "I've been
32:56 waiting for this video. It's not
32:58 uploaded yet. I want my money back." I
32:59 would have been like, "Here's your
33:00 refund. I apologize that you were
33:02 disappointed. Um, it's taken me longer
33:04 than anticipated to put that up."
33:06 There's a complete there's these
33:09 inferences about me as a result of their
33:12 displeasure. And to the extreme, like
33:15 now you're just completely discredited,
33:17 right? So that's splitting. I was, you
33:19 know, they signed on because I was
33:23 great. they signed off because I was bad
33:25 versus the gray area thing could have
33:28 been a collaborative conversation. Hey,
33:30 um when are you going to put that video
33:32 up? And if so, I would have given them
33:34 an extension. And and that's the thing
33:35 is that the lack of collaborative
33:38 capacity because of that all or nothing
33:40 thing. And you know, maybe one day I
33:42 will become a good object again in their
33:44 eyes. Maybe I'll do a video where they
33:45 they're like, "Oh, yeah." And then it
33:47 and then it it'll reverse again. And
33:49 again, I'm not poking fun. this is just
33:51 a real psychological phenomenon that
33:52 takes place. And I I wanted to use a
33:57 real a real time um experience to
33:59 demonstrate it, right? And and that's a
34:01 good example because I see that happen a
34:04 lot. You people will agree with 99% of
34:07 what you say and then all of a sudden
34:09 you say one thing they disagree with in
34:13 one video and all of a sudden it negates
34:15 everything you ever said. you must be
34:16 wrong about everything you ever said
34:19 because you said this one thing. And
34:21 that is a good example of the all all
34:24 black, all white. Yeah. And I like what
34:26 you said. It it like it really does in
34:29 their mind literally not figuratively.
34:31 It literally negates everything else
34:33 that you had said prior that was that
34:36 was credible to them. It it they they
34:39 erase that and eject it and now it's
34:42 just all that's left is the bad object.
34:44 Right. And I think another thing with
34:46 border lines is what I've noticed from
34:49 my own anecdotal experience, usually
34:52 you'll see them have more issues on the
34:54 surface. Like there's going to be issues
34:56 like addictions, acting out in other
34:58 ways, and they're honest about it. A lot
35:01 of times they're more open about maybe
35:04 their depression, their anxiety, their
35:06 and a lot of people with borderline
35:08 think they might be bipolar at first or
35:11 bipolar too. And then finally when they
35:14 get diagnosed, a lot of people can feel
35:16 relieved that at least they now know,
35:19 okay, this is why I was feeling the way
35:21 I was feeling. But it looks like they
35:23 have more issues on the surface than it
35:25 does for a lot of narcissists. A lot of
35:28 narcissists seem to have a better image
35:31 they present to the world, but under the
35:33 surface of that is where their issues
35:35 are. But the border lines, those issues
35:37 are usually front and center a lot of
35:40 times. Yeah, agreed. because they can't
35:43 necessarily um control their emotional
35:46 reactions to things and conceal them so
35:51 that it's covert. And I will say um 80%
35:54 maybe 90% uh border lines have a
35:58 comorbid uh condition that's typically
36:00 affecting their mood. So it's either a
36:02 mood disorder
36:05 um like anxiety or depression or even
36:07 bipolar. they could have comorbid, you
36:10 know, bipolar um relationship problems,
36:11 selfharming tendencies, eating
36:13 disorders. These are things that are
36:15 typically comorbid. So, they go to seek
36:17 treatment for those things because those
36:19 things are really afflicting them. They
36:21 don't know. I mean, nobody know's going
36:24 to just know, hey, I'm um I'm
36:25 borderline. Why would why would they,
36:28 you know, unless unless they did a lot
36:30 of research and and you know, but you
36:32 can go through life for a very long time
36:34 undiagnosed with something because you
36:35 don't know that that's what is going on
36:38 with you. And so border lines will go
36:40 for uh treatment to for their
36:42 symptomatic conditions, but not
36:44 necessarily their
36:46 characteristic pathology or their
36:48 personality uh pathology. So they have
36:51 these comorbid conditions like um 80 to
36:54 90% of the time. Another thing that's
36:56 important to understand though is it's
36:58 not an environmental trigger always with
37:00 border lines. It's the perception of
37:02 being triggered. So you mentioned
37:06 bipolar. Bipolar people have um mood
37:09 swings obviously. Their mood swings are
37:10 autonomous from environmental
37:13 experience. They're they're neurological
37:15 and they're biological, right? So they
37:18 just they do just happen like sort of
37:20 like the course of like a cold or a flu.
37:22 they start to get symptomatic, it
37:26 reaches like a, you know, a peak and
37:27 then after a certain amount of time they
37:28 go back to their baseline level of
37:30 functioning. That doesn't mean that
37:32 they're functioning perfectly in between
37:35 episodes, but an a mood episode like
37:38 that is more autonomous in the sense
37:40 that it's it's biologically uh
37:41 uh
37:44 manifesting. Borderline mood shifts are
37:46 not biologically manifesting only.
37:48 They're also manifesting through
37:52 perceptions within the environment. So
37:54 they could have a conversation with
37:57 someone, think that it was going one
37:59 way, and then be disappointed that it
38:00 went another way, and then that could
38:03 activate a shift in mood, right? But
38:05 it's not because the conversation was a
38:06 bad conversation. It's because their
38:10 perception of it got, you know,
38:12 difficult for them in the moment. And
38:13 but what they're going to do is they're
38:15 going to externalize the blame to that
38:18 person. you made me feel this way, like
38:19 you did this. If you wouldn't have said
38:21 this, I wouldn't have yelled at you or
38:25 broke that thing or cut myself. Um, sort
38:27 of like that email, you got me. Those
38:29 were the words. You got me to sign up
38:32 for this upon false pretenses. I did
38:35 that. I I forced their hand. So, in
38:37 their mind, I was somehow coercive when
38:39 what I really said is, "Yeah, I post
38:41 these videos and you should sign up and,
38:43 you know, see see if you like them."
38:46 There's no there's no coercion there.
38:47 But to them, they really feel justified
38:51 in accusing me of coercing them. So that
38:52 wasn't even a verbal exchange. That was
38:54 a that was a text exchange through
38:56 email. You know, I think the other thing
38:58 I see a lot with border lines is there's
39:01 a lot of substance use, a lot of
39:04 alcoholism and addictions. And then that
39:06 also can, and maybe this is different,
39:09 but can they also prompt bipolar
39:11 episodes too, right? If you take
39:13 stimulants for example, that's going to
39:16 cycle a lot of people with bipolar into
39:18 a mania phase and then that'll cycle
39:20 into a depression at some point. But a
39:22 lot of those things can be even if it's
39:26 bipolar, it can be triggered by a drug
39:29 or drinking, I think, too. Yes,
39:31 absolutely. There are substance induced
39:35 episodes, mood episodes in in bipolar.
39:38 Um, for sure. And and yes, there's a lot
39:40 of with with cluster B's in general,
39:42 there's a lot of comorbid substance
39:45 abuse. So, it's not, you know, making a
39:47 distinction between abuse and addiction.
39:48 It's not necessarily that they're
39:50 addicted to a substance, but they will
39:53 excessively abuse one for either the sensation
39:55 sensation
39:58 um or, you know, they to numb themselves
39:59 out. Like border lines certainly do
40:02 that. Border lines, you got to remember
40:03 we're talking about personality
40:06 disorder. We're not talking about um
40:08 something related to one thing. We're
40:09 talking about the entire operating
40:11 system. So when they So when they do
40:13 something, they're going to do it in
40:15 excess if they're an excessive person,
40:17 right? And border lines typically do
40:22 things to excess. So spending uh money,
40:25 um relationships are accelerated at a
40:27 rapid pace. There's an idealization and
40:29 a desire to merge right away. Um there's
40:32 an there's a desire to cut off right
40:34 away. There's no preliminary periods of
40:35 these things. And the same goes with
40:37 substance abuse. They typically will go
40:40 to the point of overdose oftentimes
40:42 because they're so excessive with with
40:44 the behavior. Sadly, it can almost be
40:47 self harm too at that point as well. A
40:49 lot of this% Yeah. A lot of substance
40:52 use with border lines is is
40:53 self-destructive. It's like
40:55 self-medicating and then it ends up
40:58 being self-destructive. Right. And
41:00 before we move on to romantic
41:02 relationships with the borderline, I
41:04 know I'd mentioned Christina and Lawson
41:06 in this um talk before, but she
41:09 characterizes the four types of
41:11 borderline mothers as she says, but she
41:13 fully acknowledges there's plenty of
41:16 male border lines too. Most of them are
41:19 just in jail like you said because they
41:21 never got diagnosed and they act out,
41:24 but they act out in violent ways and in
41:26 criminal ways a lot of times. But she
41:29 calls it the waif, the hermit, uh the
41:32 witch and the queen. Do you agree with
41:34 that characterization or what do you
41:37 think about it? I do I mean I think I
41:40 think all subtypes derive from
41:43 um heterogeneity. So what I mean by that
41:45 is there's never like with borderline
41:48 there's nine and again the the DSM is
41:50 not the Bible of psychology but it's a
41:52 it's a reference guide you know to
41:54 classify things but there's nine
41:56 criteria for borderline personality
42:00 disorder in the latest DSM and there's
42:03 not one criterion that is necessary for
42:06 the diagnosis. So what that means is as
42:08 long as there's five out of the nine, it
42:11 can inform a diagnosis, right? But the
42:12 presentation will look drastically
42:14 different depending on which five out of
42:18 those nine are present. So I think those
42:20 subtypes are ways, clever ways and I
42:22 think necessary ways to make sense of
42:25 the varying presentations of borderline.
42:29 So, um I would say like the witch
42:31 subtype is the one who probably has more
42:35 of the hostility and aggression and
42:39 callousness. And then, you know, the um
42:41 you know, I've also heard the quiet
42:43 subtype of borderline. I think that's
42:45 the one that most people think of when
42:47 they think of borderline now because
42:48 they think, "Oh, these people are just
42:51 emotionally um distraught because of all
42:53 the pain they've endured from the abuse
42:54 they've suffered and they're just
42:58 disregulated." I don't know that that's
43:01 not just complex PTSD misdiagnosed or
43:04 misrepresented as border, you know, but
43:07 to say that there aren't aggression and
43:11 impulsivity and hostility and even
43:14 becoming vengeful and sometimes even
43:16 sadistic. To say that that doesn't exist
43:19 in any heterogeneous presentation of
43:22 borderline is just not true. And that's
43:24 what would ruffle the feathers there.
43:26 And I think Christina and Lawson also
43:29 called it it's a butterfly with a sting.
43:32 And I think the quiet one would be more
43:34 of the waif. I would say that's the one
43:36 that seems a little more vulnerable and
43:39 helpless. Maybe even someone like Amy
43:41 Winehouse. Not to diagnose her or
43:43 anything, but that's kind of like what
43:46 she would remind me of. And the other
43:48 thing I got in a lot of trouble with is
43:51 when I had said Joan Crawford, uh, a
43:53 borderline quote unquote witch as they
43:56 would say. And a lot of people got very
43:58 upset at me because said, "No, she must
44:00 be a narcissist or she must have
44:02 antisocial personality disorder."
44:09 Well, I'm going to agree with you.
44:11 There you go. Yeah.
44:12 Yeah.
44:14 So it's just it's possible though it's
44:17 possible for them to be abusive and
44:20 malicious when you another thing to
44:23 consider is the overlapping features and
44:26 the um 60% of the time some research
44:28 suggests that you know there is more
44:32 than one uh personality disorder um in
44:35 in individuals or overlapping features
44:37 where you almost meet the criteria for
44:39 two. So, in my book, The Nature and
44:40 Nurture of Narcissism, I talk about my
44:42 maternal grandmother. She fit the
44:47 criteria for borderline and NPD.
44:50 Um, and the reason why that's important
44:54 is because it informed why she didn't
45:02 um the reverse dicho. She didn't split
45:04 because that narcissism was so prominent
45:06 that she was very much comfortable with
45:07 mistreating people and still playing the
45:10 victim, right? But she still had these
45:14 perceived um un uh ideas that she was
45:16 abandoned even when people were willing
45:18 to do her bidding 24 hours a day and
45:20 basically act as servants in her court.
45:22 She still accused them of abandoning
45:25 her. Right? So there was that component
45:26 of that vulnerability, but then there
45:29 was also this severe hostility where she
45:31 did some pretty deplorable things uh to
45:33 my mother, to my grandfather, and then
45:35 played the victim and everybody just
45:37 forgave her and felt sorry for her
45:40 because no one knew what these disorders
45:42 were. They thought she was really mainly
45:44 that people thought she was mentally ill
45:47 because it was like she must be ill if
45:50 she's doing these things. And a lot of
45:53 that was was manipulation.
45:55 I think what I hear a lot with kids that
45:58 have a borderline parent is they feel as
46:01 if they're emotionally held hostage and
46:03 a lot of times the borderline parent
46:07 will use emotional blackmail guilt trips
46:09 because they don't want to be abandoned.
46:12 They want that child to always be there
46:14 for them on a dime. They'll maybe
46:16 manufacture emergencies to have that
46:18 happen too. What would be your
46:22 suggestions to a child or an adult child
46:24 in that dynamic? Well, the guilt trips
46:27 are are never ending. I mean, they
46:30 really do like I mean, I think that they
46:33 not what they see as a reward or a
46:36 justification or or justice for
46:38 themselves is that somebody else is
46:40 feeling bad, which is terrible. Not all
46:43 not across the board, but more like the
46:45 witch ones for sure. They're not happy
46:47 until everyone else is feeling really
46:51 unhappy and bad. Um, another thing to
46:55 point out though is border lines fear or
46:58 are threatened by
47:01 um connection just as much as they're fe
47:03 they fear or they threaten abandonment.
47:05 So, it's not that if you don't abandon
47:06 them, they all of a sudden feel better.
47:08 Then they'll accuse you of engulfing or
47:10 smothering them. So, you can really
47:12 never get where you're supposed to be
47:14 for them. It's a cons it's a constant
47:16 dissatisfaction with you're either too
47:18 far away or you don't care enough or
47:20 you're too close and you're too much for
47:22 me. There's really never a sweet spot
47:24 with border lines. That is completely
47:27 not true with complex PTSD. There is
47:29 there there is the capacity to have
47:30 healthy relationships if you have
47:32 complex PTSD and you're not worried
47:35 about engulfment or um uh abandonment
47:39 across the board at all. Um, as far as
47:42 infor like what's Yeah, I mean it's I
47:45 think the best thing that could that can
47:48 take place for a child
47:51 um I noticed a lot of adult children of
47:53 border lines have never spoken about
47:57 their parents to anyone and they
48:00 internalize the the blame. So kids
48:02 should be encouraged if they have
48:04 someone in their life who can support
48:06 them whether it's the other parent or
48:08 it's a teacher or if it's you know
48:11 somebody to be feel give grant
48:12 themselves permission as early as
48:15 possible to speak about the experiences
48:16 without feeling like they're throwing
48:19 their parent under the bus. They're just
48:20 speaking about their emotional
48:22 experiences because you need some you
48:25 need an an experience with someone else
48:28 who can be consistently there for you
48:30 and give you positive regard and give
48:33 you generosity and not blame you for
48:35 things. You need that experience to
48:38 contrast with the borderline parent
48:41 experience where they are, you know,
48:42 constantly vacasillating between you're
48:46 all you're all good and you're all bad.
48:48 And that segus pretty well into the
48:50 romantic relationships with border lines
48:53 too because the pushpull dynamic because
48:55 you said the fear of abandonment plus
48:57 the fear of engulfment and losing
48:59 themselves. Yeah. How do you help a
49:01 borderline with that and and how do you
49:03 help the people that are on the
49:05 receiving end of that? Well, here's the
49:08 good news about BPD.
49:12 So we we consider personality disorders
49:15 um egoonic disorders which means that
49:18 for the most part the traits and and the
49:20 experience of them in the individual
49:22 feels very harmonious with who who they
49:24 see themselves as. So they're not trying
49:26 to change it because they don't they
49:28 feel comfortable in their own skin.
49:29 Borderline is the exception. They're
49:32 actually egoistonic partially, which
49:35 means often times because of those other
49:36 occur co-occurring disorders we
49:38 mentioned earlier, they don't like
49:40 feeling that way. They don't like that
49:45 they're um, you know, burning things
49:46 down and walking away. They don't want
49:48 to live their lives like that all the
49:51 time. Their emotion dysregulation can be
49:54 treated successfully in in the right
49:57 psychotherapy. So, there's a lot of hope
50:00 for them if they show up. And it's not
50:01 smooth sailing once they show up. I
50:03 mean, there's going to be a lot of, you
50:06 know, but I I think that they the ones
50:10 who are willing to show up to treatment
50:12 and if you find if you're if you're
50:14 fortunate enough to find a therapist
50:16 who's trained in treating these these
50:19 disorders through um you know, DBT is
50:21 the the kind of gold standard everybody
50:23 talks about, but there's also other ones
50:24 that are very effective. mentalization
50:27 based treatment um schema therapy if
50:30 people know how to recognize BPD and
50:33 then they know how to treat it um the
50:35 prognosis can be good you know it's
50:38 again it's an it's a long daunting
50:42 process but it's not impossible um in a
50:45 lot of individuals who present with with
50:48 uh BPD and there are situations where
50:50 it's so severe that there's
50:53 collaboration will never be achieved but
50:56 I do like I do like the fact that um
50:59 because of this partial egodistonic
51:01 component to it there's there's a lot of
51:03 hope for these people and I would
51:05 encourage them
51:08 to be courageous enough to seek it out
51:11 because the egoistonic part that
51:13 actually encourages them to get
51:14 treatment it actually makes it more
51:16 likely I would say because they have all
51:19 those unpleasant feelings and I think
51:21 that's where it gets complicated for
51:23 people that are dating them or married
51:26 with them because the borderline can
51:27 admit they have issues. They can admit
51:30 something's wrong which gives the other
51:32 person more hope that oh well they admit
51:35 they have an issue. There's a chance but
51:37 they still have to like take
51:39 accountability and do the action steps
51:42 which border lines are more likely to do
51:44 in my experience than say narcissists or
51:47 others in the cluster B category. But
51:49 where would you say to draw the line for
51:52 someone that's trying to be dating them
51:55 or married to them? What is the line for
51:57 someone? And I guess you can't tell
51:59 everyone what their line would be, but I
52:01 think the line really does depend on
52:04 willingness to um try to modify the
52:06 behaviors first. Again, we we want to
52:09 get the behaviors that are inappropriate
52:12 and unacceptable under wraps before we
52:16 start dealing with um anything else. I
52:17 think that depends on the individual,
52:19 how much resiliency they have. I think
52:21 some people are more resilient to
52:23 tolerating that conflict than others.
52:25 But also,
52:28 um, we're talking about heterogeneity.
52:30 So, it's not that like just because
52:32 someone has this diagnosis that the
52:33 outcome is going to be the same with
52:35 them as it is with another. I mean, it
52:39 it it varies drastically. So you'd have
52:44 to assess that and also look for
52:46 um you know the enduring patterns and
52:48 how much your quality of life is
52:51 suffering if you decide to stay. Um I
52:54 think you're right that they do go and
52:56 seek help for other things and so people
52:58 have this hope that okay well maybe
53:00 things are going to turn around but most
53:04 of the time I've seen that the person
53:05 who's treating them isn't treating their
53:08 BPD. So even if the mood increases a
53:10 little bit or the eating disorder gets
53:13 you know modified or the substance abuse
53:15 gets you know decreased a bit there's
53:19 still these pathological traits that
53:22 inform their perception of relating. And
53:26 so at that point it's like you should
53:29 probably give yourself a time frame on
53:31 how long how long you're going to
53:32 tolerate that if that doesn't get
53:35 better. Also, just to be clear,
53:38 borderline personality disorder does not
53:41 improve in the context of a
53:43 relationship, like a personal
53:45 relationship. No amount of empathy and
53:47 understanding and patience is going to
53:50 make somebody become no longer
53:51 borderline. Those aren't the
53:55 interventions or the approaches to stop
53:58 these behaviors. It's just not. I mean,
53:59 if that were the case, we could just
54:02 love people out of this. And that's just
54:04 I know people who love and are devoted
54:07 to a fault to people who have, you know,
54:10 this disorder and and no amount of of
54:12 love and affection and and patience and
54:16 and nurturing is going to, you know,
54:18 remove that.
54:19 And that's a very good point to make
54:21 because if you were to listen to
54:23 Borderlines, a lot of them would say,
54:26 "If only I could find that ideal love,
54:27 that one person that's going to be the
54:30 Disney fantasy, then everything will be
54:32 okay." And it can sound pretty
54:35 convincing. And as a man, I have
54:36 experienced dating borderline women.
54:38 Like I said, and I think one of the
54:40 things, and I've gotten push back for
54:43 this, too, some borderline women are
54:45 very good at appearing to be someone
54:48 that like needs to be rescued or saved.
54:51 And there are some guys that can be an
54:53 appealing thing to them. And yeah,
54:55 sometimes it's a narcissist guy too that
54:58 wants to swoop in to take power and
55:00 control. But I think even other times,
55:02 guys are actually like a good dude like
55:04 like really want to help this person,
55:06 and it becomes a temptation. No, I want
55:09 I want to help this person. They seem so
55:12 in need of help and they seem so in need
55:14 of someone to save them. But what would
55:16 you say to the guys in that spot or the
55:19 vice versa, a woman like that is wanting
55:22 to save the borderline man? Yeah. I
55:24 think one of the distinctions that's
55:26 important to make is I don't think that
55:29 border lines enter into relationships
55:32 with this um covert exploitation the way
55:35 that narcissists and psychopaths do. I
55:37 think they actually do enter into
55:39 something with an idealized fantasy
55:41 thinking this is going to be this the
55:43 solution to all their emotional problems
55:46 their emotional you know conflicts but
55:48 then once that doesn't meet their
55:50 expectations then they can turn on you
55:53 and be very manipulative and emotionally
55:54 blackmailing and stuff. So I think
55:57 that's one thing is I don't think that
55:59 they are premeditating like oh you are
56:02 prey and I'm I'm really going to I'm
56:03 really going to give it to you once once
56:06 I have an opportunity. Um I don't that
56:08 not that that's an important
56:10 distinction. Um it doesn't justify the
56:13 backlash you receive after but it
56:15 certainly is like they some of like a
56:18 lot of them are just truly looking for
56:20 and they don't know what is going on
56:22 with them internally. So they don't they
56:25 don't they're not necessarily uh
56:28 premeditating any sort of exploitation.
56:30 Um but you do need to look out for
56:33 rescuing somebody, you know, because
56:34 you're not going to be able to rescue
56:35 him. Sometime you mentioned earlier like
56:38 if I just find that that that love that
56:40 Disneyland fantasy often times they have
56:42 found it. There's people who are willing
56:45 to go through any length in the world to
56:47 to satisfy this person and it's still
56:50 not enough, right? So they don't even
56:51 know sometimes that the best thing
56:53 that's ever happened to them is the the
56:55 person that they the relationship that
56:57 they are not uh getting along in very
57:00 well. So I
57:04 think that people people just need to
57:07 take things slow with relationships.
57:10 There's no shortcut to true intimacy,
57:12 you know, and oftentimes borderline
57:14 personalities because of their
57:15 intensity, they like to really
57:17 accelerate the process, you know. let's
57:21 get let's merge quickly. And so that's
57:22 something that men and women should look
57:27 for in partners is what is this um why
57:30 where is this urgency to merge so
57:32 quickly coming from? You know, pay
57:34 attention to that because if it feels
57:37 like you're having to, you know, for
57:39 like foreclose on your own autonomy or
57:41 your own independent life, that's
57:44 probably a sign um that things need to
57:47 slow down, you know? Right. And and part
57:49 of what I was referring to before was a
57:51 narcissistic person would want to
57:54 exploit and prey on a vulnerable
57:56 borderline. That's that's what I admit.
57:59 Yes. And and but other just regular
58:01 people that are not neuroid diversions
58:03 in any way. They still might get the
58:06 impulsion to want to rescue or save for
58:08 whatever reason. Not just a narcissist
58:11 would, right? Anyone might. Narcissists
58:13 are notorious for targeting border lines
58:16 because they out of the gate they get
58:18 idealized. So they get the admiration
58:21 and things that they want from somebody
58:24 and then when they devalue a borderline
58:26 the borderline starts to
58:28 self-deprecate, you know, after they
58:29 defend themselves and they feel like
58:31 they're worthless and then they want to
58:33 re earn the affection of the narcissist
58:35 again. So the narcissist toys with that
58:37 and plays with that until they become an
58:39 idealized object again and then the
58:41 borderline can become very apologetic
58:44 and remorseful and then that cycle
58:47 repeats itself. So it's very um I mean I
58:50 do want to say we haven't said this yet
58:53 borderline some border lines can be very
58:56 abusive. They're also abused quite
58:59 often you know. I'm not gonna
59:01 Absolutely. Yeah. So, so I mean, yeah,
59:04 because people sometimes get into the
59:06 black and white thinking with that, too.
59:08 They think, well, if you ever abuse, it
59:10 means you can never be abused. And it's
59:12 like, that's not how it works at all.
59:14 It's like, no, you can be abused.
59:18 Sorry about that background. But it's
59:20 like, yeah, you can be abused even if
59:21 you have a personality disorder.
59:24 Certainly possible. Like, yes. And some
59:26 people think you can't though. They
59:28 think, oh, no, if you are ever abusive,
59:30 it means you can never be the abuser.
59:31 And I was like, where the heck did you
59:33 get that from? No. Yeah, that's
59:36 absolutely not true. Right. And I think
59:38 another good thing you mentioned before
59:41 is that sense of urgency that I hear a
59:43 lot of people with borderline get. It
59:46 becomes really a necessity. I must find
59:49 this ideal love now. I'm running out of
59:51 time. I got to be I got to find this
59:54 person. But it's all implicating that
59:56 they're not happy on their own. And it's
59:58 like if you're going into a relationship
60:01 not happy on your own, you're not that's not a good a recipe for a healthy
60:02 not a good a recipe for a healthy relationship. That's not a strong
60:04 relationship. That's not a strong foundation because you can't expect
60:06 foundation because you can't expect someone else to make you happy if you're
60:09 someone else to make you happy if you're not already happy on your own. Yeah. I
60:12 not already happy on your own. Yeah. I think that I think that Yeah. The good
60:14 think that I think that Yeah. The good the distinction there would be that you
60:18 the distinction there would be that you you you can't put all of your happiness
60:21 you you can't put all of your happiness eggs in that one basket, you know, like
60:23 eggs in that one basket, you know, like you like that's the goal of a
60:25 you like that's the goal of a relationship isn't for you to be held by
60:28 relationship isn't for you to be held by someone else. And border lines really do
60:31 someone else. And border lines really do like to be held and contained by someone
60:33 like to be held and contained by someone else, right? They like almost want that
60:35 else, right? They like almost want that symbiotic connection of like all their
60:37 symbiotic connection of like all their needs are being met without having to
60:39 needs are being met without having to ask. Um that's not why we enter into
60:42 ask. Um that's not why we enter into relationships. We enter into
60:43 relationships. We enter into relationships for support and um you
60:47 relationships for support and um you know uh companionship, connection, but
60:50 know uh companionship, connection, but also we don't lose ourselves in the
60:52 also we don't lose ourselves in the other person. And so that merger is and
60:56 other person. And so that merger is and that urgency are indicators that the
60:58 that urgency are indicators that the other person is, you know, wanting to
61:00 other person is, you know, wanting to lose themselves in someone else or find
61:03 lose themselves in someone else or find themselves in someone else rather than
61:05 themselves in someone else rather than the other person just sort of enhancing
61:07 the other person just sort of enhancing the, you know, joyous and positive life
61:10 the, you know, joyous and positive life that they've built for themselves, you
61:12 that they've built for themselves, you know. So it's not it's never a good idea
61:16 know. So it's not it's never a good idea to to depend on somebody for that,
61:20 to to depend on somebody for that, right? And we talk a lot about the
61:22 right? And we talk a lot about the narcissistic cycle of abuse with
61:24 narcissistic cycle of abuse with lovebombing, devalue, discard, Hoover.
61:27 lovebombing, devalue, discard, Hoover. What is the borderline equivalent of
61:30 What is the borderline equivalent of that? Yeah. So, I don't really think
61:32 that? Yeah. So, I don't really think that there's a linear with border lines.
61:34 that there's a linear with border lines. It's not really a linear process because
61:36 It's not really a linear process because of that reverse dichotomizing. It's sort
61:39 of that reverse dichotomizing. It's sort of like it vacasillates between like
61:43 of like it vacasillates between like love then hate then love then hate then
61:45 love then hate then love then hate then love then hate and sometimes within a
61:47 love then hate and sometimes within a given day, you know. Um, so there's not
61:50 given day, you know. Um, so there's not really this, it's also there's not this
61:52 really this, it's also there's not this intentionality to I'm going to exploit
61:55 intentionality to I'm going to exploit this person, they're going to disappoint
61:57 this person, they're going to disappoint me, I'm going to devalue, then I'm going
61:58 me, I'm going to devalue, then I'm going to discard. That's not what they're
62:00 to discard. That's not what they're doing. They're really in the moment
62:02 doing. They're really in the moment where you are all bad, they want nothing
62:03 where you are all bad, they want nothing to do with you. And then in the and then
62:05 to do with you. And then in the and then when they are all bad, they want
62:07 when they are all bad, they want everything to do with you. And that
62:08 everything to do with you. And that happens all like often, you know. Um,
62:12 happens all like often, you know. Um, not all day every day, but but very
62:14 not all day every day, but but very frequently. Um, and so that's why it can
62:18 frequently. Um, and so that's why it can be difficult to pin it. I don't know if
62:20 be difficult to pin it. I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to it. It's
62:22 there's any rhyme or reason to it. It's been referred to as continuously
62:23 been referred to as continuously discontinuous.
62:26 discontinuous. That's a good way to put it. And I think
62:28 That's a good way to put it. And I think another thing I see a lot with border
62:30 another thing I see a lot with border lines in relationships is the way they
62:32 lines in relationships is the way they triangulate. Now narcissists, I see them
62:34 triangulate. Now narcissists, I see them triangulate with others. And a lot of
62:36 triangulate with others. And a lot of times it's just to make the other people
62:38 times it's just to make the other people jealous and they get maybe a little bit
62:40 jealous and they get maybe a little bit of sadistic glee sometimes from seeing
62:42 of sadistic glee sometimes from seeing them jealous and uncomfortable. But
62:44 them jealous and uncomfortable. But border lines, I've noticed they'll do
62:47 border lines, I've noticed they'll do that because they want more love from
62:49 that because they want more love from you. Like if they think you're not
62:51 you. Like if they think you're not giving them attention or enough love,
62:54 giving them attention or enough love, they'll triangulate you with somebody to
62:56 they'll triangulate you with somebody to try to get you to love them more. And
62:58 try to get you to love them more. And it's an immature attempt to do that. But
63:00 it's an immature attempt to do that. But I do see that a lot. Do you see that?
63:03 I do see that a lot. Do you see that? Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. They want
63:05 Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. They want um they think they need to use these
63:07 um they think they need to use these tactics in order to get their needs met.
63:09 tactics in order to get their needs met. And the reason is is because their needs
63:12 And the reason is is because their needs are, you know, unreasonable. So they
63:14 are, you know, unreasonable. So they have to they they feel like they have to
63:16 have to they they feel like they have to resort to these tactics in order to get
63:18 resort to these tactics in order to get their needs met. But the re the needs
63:19 their needs met. But the re the needs are what really needs to happen is they
63:21 are what really needs to happen is they need to learn how to regulate better. If
63:24 need to learn how to regulate better. If they self-regulate better, they don't
63:25 they self-regulate better, they don't need to do these tactics. You know, I
63:28 need to do these tactics. You know, I remember my grandmother would call my
63:31 remember my grandmother would call my mom and then my dad and then me and then
63:35 mom and then my dad and then me and then my uncle and my aunt and tell tell five
63:38 my uncle and my aunt and tell tell five different stories so that those five
63:40 different stories so that those five people would clash and argue about
63:42 people would clash and argue about something. Why didn't anybody bring her
63:44 something. Why didn't anybody bring her food? What do you mean? She said that
63:46 food? What do you mean? She said that you were going to do it. No, she said
63:48 you were going to do it. No, she said you weren't going to do it. That you
63:49 you weren't going to do it. That you were going to do it. Well, why would I
63:51 were going to do it. Well, why would I do it? I'm 30 minutes away. You're two
63:52 do it? I'm 30 minutes away. You're two minutes away. But it's like I mean
63:55 minutes away. But it's like I mean everyone was talking about her like she
63:57 everyone was talking about her like she found a way to become on everybody's
63:59 found a way to become on everybody's radar but it was the only way she could
64:01 radar but it was the only way she could figure out how to do it was to create a
64:03 figure out how to do it was to create a lot of conflict between people and and
64:05 lot of conflict between people and and and you know create division but she got
64:09 and you know create division but she got what she wanted. Everybody was she was
64:11 what she wanted. Everybody was she was on the forefront of everybody's mind.
64:13 on the forefront of everybody's mind. Yeah. I mean it controls others gives
64:15 Yeah. I mean it controls others gives them attention and then everyone felt
64:17 them attention and then everyone felt bad for her because they were like oh
64:18 bad for her because they were like oh wait is she actually starving them?
64:20 wait is she actually starving them? Someone needs like we got to stop
64:21 Someone needs like we got to stop arguing and go get her some food right
64:22 arguing and go get her some food right now, you know. Right. Right. And they're
64:25 now, you know. Right. Right. And they're the center of it all. It makes them feel
64:26 the center of it all. It makes them feel important too. It's a way to get
64:28 important too. It's a way to get admiration really in a covert way or at
64:31 admiration really in a covert way or at least a way to feel important. Yeah. and
64:34 least a way to feel important. Yeah. and then everyone felt guilty and then you
64:36 then everyone felt guilty and then you know it was so it's not necessarily that
64:39 know it was so it's not necessarily that it's always um
64:42 it's always um uh from the get-go this idealization
64:46 uh from the get-go this idealization devaluation discard uh pattern so much
64:49 devaluation discard uh pattern so much as they probably do oftentimes go into
64:52 as they probably do oftentimes go into relationship prospects with good
64:54 relationship prospects with good intentions and hope that this is going
64:56 intentions and hope that this is going to be the thing to save them and then it
64:58 to be the thing to save them and then it falls short and then all of these other
65:00 falls short and then all of these other um these emotional blackmailing and
65:03 um these emotional blackmailing and manipulative tactics result from that
65:05 manipulative tactics result from that disappointment.
65:07 disappointment. Right. Now, do you ever see things such
65:09 Right. Now, do you ever see things such as mood stabilizers helping people with
65:11 as mood stabilizers helping people with borderline?
65:13 borderline? Not for the borderline uh just bipolar
65:16 Not for the borderline uh just bipolar with that. Yeah. I mean, if there's a
65:18 with that. Yeah. I mean, if there's a comorbid mood disorder, you know, I
65:20 comorbid mood disorder, you know, I think it can stabilize some symptoms,
65:22 think it can stabilize some symptoms, but again, when we're talking about
65:23 but again, when we're talking about personality, we're talking about
65:25 personality, we're talking about characteristics, traits. We're not
65:26 characteristics, traits. We're not talking about
65:28 talking about um symptoms that you know can be
65:31 um symptoms that you know can be alleviated through an intervention like
65:33 alleviated through an intervention like that. Most of the research on borderline
65:36 that. Most of the research on borderline and this will probably get some push
65:38 and this will probably get some push back here but I'm talking about re
65:39 back here but I'm talking about re research published in 2025 from
65:42 research published in 2025 from individuals who've opened clinics
65:45 individuals who've opened clinics dedicated to the treatment of this
65:47 dedicated to the treatment of this disorder. They don't
65:49 disorder. They don't necessarily find any benefit to
65:52 necessarily find any benefit to psychopharmarmacology related to the
65:54 psychopharmarmacology related to the treatment of this unless there's a
65:56 treatment of this unless there's a comorbid condition where some anxiety or
65:58 comorbid condition where some anxiety or depressive symptoms can be you know uh
66:01 depressive symptoms can be you know uh contained or treated in in addition but
66:06 contained or treated in in addition but okay and that's good to know too and I
66:08 okay and that's good to know too and I think the last thing I wanted to ask you
66:10 think the last thing I wanted to ask you about this what do you think is the best
66:13 about this what do you think is the best way to tell the difference between a
66:15 way to tell the difference between a covert narcissist and borderline Why?
66:20 covert narcissist and borderline Why? Yeah, that's a good that's a good
66:21 Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. Um, again, I think you kind of
66:24 question. Um, again, I think you kind of you kind of hit on it earlier where the
66:26 you kind of hit on it earlier where the emotional expression or dissatisfaction
66:29 emotional expression or dissatisfaction is typically you can't con you can't
66:32 is typically you can't con you can't conceal it often times with border lines
66:34 conceal it often times with border lines because if there's this there's this
66:37 because if there's this there's this impulsivity and this the emotional
66:39 impulsivity and this the emotional instability is it's kind of worn on
66:42 instability is it's kind of worn on their sleeve. So, it's not it's not
66:44 their sleeve. So, it's not it's not hidden or contained, you know, it's it's
66:47 hidden or contained, you know, it's it's disregulated. A covert narcissist can be
66:50 disregulated. A covert narcissist can be very much if they're striving to achieve
66:52 very much if they're striving to achieve something from you, they can very much
66:55 something from you, they can very much conceal their emotions for a very long
66:58 conceal their emotions for a very long time. Even if they feel like they want
67:00 time. Even if they feel like they want to rage at you, they can still keep it
67:02 to rage at you, they can still keep it under wraps if they feel like it's going
67:03 under wraps if they feel like it's going to benefit them too. And so, that
67:05 to benefit them too. And so, that element of control of that, I think, is
67:08 element of control of that, I think, is a good indicator of the like the
67:10 a good indicator of the like the distinctions. Okay. And before I let you
67:13 distinctions. Okay. And before I let you go, Peter, anything new coming up for
67:15 go, Peter, anything new coming up for you? Any new courses, uh, books or any
67:18 you? Any new courses, uh, books or any other new content stuff coming up? Yeah,
67:21 other new content stuff coming up? Yeah, I'm working or I'm actually working with
67:24 I'm working or I'm actually working with um, uh, a co-f facilitator um, stronger
67:28 um, uh, a co-f facilitator um, stronger than before coach. She's known as Lisa
67:31 than before coach. She's known as Lisa um, for like a trauma bond recovery
67:34 um, for like a trauma bond recovery program that we're we're co-f
67:36 program that we're we're co-f facilitating. Um it's like a 12-week
67:39 facilitating. Um it's like a 12-week program that's like individual work and
67:41 program that's like individual work and then there's discussion groups once a
67:42 then there's discussion groups once a week. So that next one is coming up on
67:44 week. So that next one is coming up on June 11th and then we're going to have
67:46 June 11th and then we're going to have multiple co cohorts of that. Um I am
67:49 multiple co cohorts of that. Um I am currently working on a new book. Um
67:52 currently working on a new book. Um probably going to be out in the next uh
67:56 probably going to be out in the next uh four to six months. Um, and then I'm
67:59 four to six months. Um, and then I'm working on the uh audible version of the
68:02 working on the uh audible version of the traumatic cognitive dissonance book
68:04 traumatic cognitive dissonance book which should be out within a few weeks.
68:08 which should be out within a few weeks. And people can find that course on your
68:10 And people can find that course on your website or they can find it via your
68:12 website or they can find it via your Instagram. Yeah, there's a link on my
68:14 Instagram. Yeah, there's a link on my Instagram handle, Dr. Peter Serno, and
68:16 Instagram handle, Dr. Peter Serno, and then um uh stronger than before coach
68:20 then um uh stronger than before coach has the
68:22 has the the link as well on her. Okay.
68:26 the link as well on her. Okay. Well, and I think the cliffhanger for
68:28 Well, and I think the cliffhanger for the people here, I think the next time
68:30 the people here, I think the next time we talk, we'll talk about uh another
68:33 we talk, we'll talk about uh another professional that made a video about the
68:36 professional that made a video about the 80% almost 80% genetics or or narcissism
68:39 80% almost 80% genetics or or narcissism is genetic component. And I think that
68:42 is genetic component. And I think that whole video that was made could deserve
68:45 whole video that was made could deserve an entire breakdown as well. So, I think
68:47 an entire breakdown as well. So, I think that would be a good thing to talk about
68:49 that would be a good thing to talk about the next time we speak. Absolutely.
68:52 the next time we speak. Absolutely. Looking forward to that one. I'm going
68:53 Looking forward to that one. I'm going to clarify a lot of things.
68:56 to clarify a lot of things. That'll be a good one. I mean, and I'd
68:58 That'll be a good one. I mean, and I'd be open to having you both on at the
69:00 be open to having you both on at the same time. That'd be great. And I'd also
69:03 same time. That'd be great. And I'd also thought about the same with Dr. Simon,
69:04 thought about the same with Dr. Simon, too, trying to get Dr. Simon and you on
69:07 too, trying to get Dr. Simon and you on as well at the same time at some point
69:09 as well at the same time at some point if you'd ever be interested in doing
69:10 if you'd ever be interested in doing that. Well, I'd be more than interested.
69:12 that. Well, I'd be more than interested. I'd also be a bit nervous because he's
69:14 I'd also be a bit nervous because he's he's kind of one of my heroes. So, that
69:16 he's kind of one of my heroes. So, that would be uh uncomfortably um exciting.
69:20 would be uh uncomfortably um exciting. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll try to I'll
69:22 Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll try to I'll try to set up both of those at a point,
69:24 try to set up both of those at a point, too, but I think the first one would be
69:26 too, but I think the first one would be just addressing that first video first,
69:28 just addressing that first video first, then we take it from there. Absolutely.
69:30 then we take it from there. Absolutely. That would be great. All right, Peter,
69:32 That would be great. All right, Peter, thanks again for coming on the show.
69:33 thanks again for coming on the show. It's always a pleasure. Always a
69:34 It's always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Thank you for having me again.
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