The "Tall Trees" initiative, originating from New Zealand's "Rakord Aurora" program, is being launched in South Australia to empower individuals with lived experience of mental health challenges to become local change-makers, fostering community resilience and reducing stigma.
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Oh, that's one of those annoying one
thing questions, isn't it? What's the
best thing about being part of Rakord?
Uh, I I've always been a change the
world kind of person. I really I you
know, I want to make a difference. I
want uh I want my story, my experiences
to to make a difference in people's
lives to be inspiring to inspire them to
try new things or to hang on to hope I
think is one of those things and uh I
call so much the the project for doing
that. That's the best thing about it. I
Namani nani mani change makers to the
tall trees initiative from your mental
We gratefully acknowledge we're
broadcasting from the unseated Ghana
lands and pay respects to elders past,
present and emerging. This always was
and always will be Ghana land. Over the
next hour, we'll hear from graduates
from the New Zealand initiative known as
Rucker Aurora such as Steve from the
clip we just saw. We'll also hear from
our governor, her excellency, the
honorable Francis Adamson AC, and the
Honorable Chris Pikton, MP, Minister for
Health and Well-being, along with
special guests from across the ditch.
We'll dive into the detail with mental
health commissioner Tammy Allen, and
answer some of your presubmitted questions.
questions.
Shortly, we're honored to have with us
Jack Buckskin, who'll provide a welcome
to country and along with a very special
guest from New Zealand, a ceremony to
set the scene. Before handing over to
Jack and Tammy, I'd like to acknowledge
the lived and living experience we have
in today's virtual room across
Australia, New Zealand, and beyond. We
recognize, honor, and celebrate the
lives and work of people with lived
experience of mental health challenges,
distress, trauma, and recovery along
with our supporters and allies who
shoulder us up and whom we shoulder up
in return as we act uh to elevate voice,
influence, and collective wisdom of experience.
Um, it's amazing to be able to use your
lived experience and turn it around in a
way that challenges all the
discrimination and stigma you might have
faced. But the people are the most
company.
I'm so proud to be launching this today
alongside our tall trees from both sides
of the tasine and I'm very very honored
to be standing on the land of the oldest
living um civilization on earth really
and I'm going to introduce in a moment
Jack Buckskin who the inimitable Jack
Buckskin who's going to do a welcome to
country which is a bit unusual being
online and then we're going to have a
response from um our cultural elder in
New Zealand Borangapai to so for those listening
So very big welcome to you in bringing
this copapa this business this this
cultural welcome and uh the tall trees
forest over from your gift from New
Zealand to uh Australia. I'll pass over
to Jack and then it will go straight
into Bourne who will uh thank Jack and
pass over our cultural tonger of the
program from New Zealand to South Australia.
Welcome to everybody online. Um whether
you're here on Ghana country or or back
in New Zealand. Uh pay respects to our
spirit and and uh of the country that we
stand on but ours internally as well. My
name is Jack. I'm a proud Garna and
Waranga man. I represent three aiginal
groups from South Australia. I also
acknowledge my dad who's Italian and
Scottish. But when I welcome people to
to country and space, it's just about
recognizing who we are as as humans and
every one of us has a spirit. So today
we stand on on Danty, the dreaming place
of the big red kangaroo within Varna
country. Um but we all come and and sit
in different areas and and surrounded by
spirits wherever we stand. So globally
we're we're surrounded by the spiritual
realm and uh today we get to acknowledge
the space that we stand on um here being
Danya the dreaming place of big red
kangaroo. So the people here in Adelaide
uh welcome to to the country that we
stand on but to all the others all the
other brothers and sisters uh over the
ditch um we want to acknowledge your
spirit and and the continuous um thrive
uh k everyone. Firstly, it was important
for me to acknowledge uh those who have
come before us. So I was acknowledging
Matu Fatua who is the respected WI and
the guardians of the land here in
Alteora who supported Rao Rakodoro in
its infancy. Also to you Jack, thank you
for your welcome to country.
Um, paying respects to our changing
minds past and present and to our friend
Tami who established the mahi and to our
mighty guardians of this kapa tudo kawa
bartlet and Matsua George. Uh, so I bow
my head to the steadfast anchors of
their them to this initiative. Um, my
name is Bonita.
I wear a few hats in in in alignment
with racoa. I was around when in its
infancy. I was working at changing minds
and I did the training as well. Um today
here because our mata our elder mata
George uh is unable to speak for us. I
am blessed to be able to uh represent
him and pass on the Tonga to the the
Ghana people to hold uh with the hope
that it builds a stronger connected
mental health community in Australia as
It's really lovely for you to pass on
that tong. So um in representation of
that Tonga I passed to you Jack as
guardian of a seedling that we hope will
where this this tree is going to come
back to our country. So, thank you to
all the family members over there and
I'd now like to introduce online um the
honorable uh Francis Adamson, our
governor of South Australia, who's got a
short message for us before I move into
introducing our Minister of Health, Minister
Yaka.
I acknowledge and pay my respects to
ainal people whether from Ghana country
or other lands and regions. I also
acknowledge the Ghana people as the
traditional owners of this land from the
past today and into the future. It's a
pleasure to join you to support Tall
Trees, an initiative that places lived
and living experience at
the heart of community leadership.
Tall Trees is about turning insight into
action, reducing stigma, building
inclusion, and encouraging earlier help
seeking so that people can receive
support before crisis. Done well, it can
strengthen the fabric of our communities
and lighten the load on our hospitals
and emergency departments.
As governor, I have the privilege of
seeing every day the difference that
volunteers, community leaders, and
service organizations make across our
state. From schools and youth groups to
health charities and research institutes,
institutes,
their efforts remind us that the most
durable progress begins locally with
people who care about their neighbors
and act with purpose.
Tall Trees belongs in that company. A
movement of practical projects large and
small. Each one planting a seed of
understanding that can grow into lasting change.
change.
This initiative also speaks to our
values as South Australians.
We're a state which thinks globally and
acts locally, welcomes diverse
perspectives and understands the power
of partnership.
My own journey from Adelaide to service
overseas and back again has reinforced a
simple truth. When people are heard and
respected, communities thrive.
I particularly welcome Tall Tre's
commitment to co-design with Aboriginal
leaders and to weaving Aboriginal
cultural wisdom into the program's very
fabric. In Afaroa, New Zealand, tall
trees is enriched by language and
cultural frameworks. Here in South
Australia, we can help advance our
shared goals for culturally safe care,
shared decision making and equity,
consistent with South Australia's
closing the gap commitments and
partnership approach with Aboriginal
community controlled organizations.
Tall Trees is also notable for the
safety it offers participants, the
option to contribute anonymously where
appropriate, the emphasis on clear
boundaries, and the mentorship that
helps graduates deliver projects
confidently and sustainably
in its first years. It is hoped that
many such projects will take root. each
one a practical step forward to enable
communities to understand mental health
and seek help in a very normal way. I
thank everyone who has brought tall
trees to South Australia and those who
will carry it forward in workplaces and
families, in regional towns and city
neighborhoods, in classrooms, clubs and
clinics. May your leadership inspire
others and may this forest of tall trees
Thank you so much your excellency for
those beautiful wise words. I have with
me the Minister of Health Minister
Pikton who is a real champion for lived
experience, innovation, health reform.
Um so thanks for joining us.
>> Thank you very much Tammy for having me.
It's a really exciting day.
>> It isn't. We've been talking about it
for over a year now. you have. Yeah.
>> So you have been um leading major
reforms in health across the state. So
from your understanding of tall tree so
far, why do you think it's important for
South Australia to bring in such a
community-based program? Why does it matter?
matter?
>> Well, I think it's always better if we
can have community- based interventions
and support. I mean ultimately the rest
of the health system, the acute side is
there for people who need it. Um but
it's better if people aren't in it. It's
better if we keep a strong community,
strong community supports. And you know,
particularly this is something that
we've been talking about ever since
we're delighted that you came here and
started as the commissioner. And it's
always good when we can find evidence of
something that's been working somewhere
in part of the world. Rather than
reinvent the wheel, let's apply that for
working here in South Australia. And
that's what we're delighted we're able
to do now with tall trees.
>> Yeah, that's awesome. I mean, one of the
conversations we often have, Minister,
is that that real need to shift from
crisis to intervention, early
intervention and prevention. So, um, why
do you think tall trees might help us
make that shift?
>> Well, there's a lot of different things
that are trying to do make that shift,
but I think that, you know, what will be
pivotal about tall trees is its
sincerity. um the fact that you've got
people with lived experience involved um
sharing their stories. It's always going
to be I think a lot more genuine um to
make connections with people rather than
a sort of copied and paste government
program if you like.
>> Um it's also going to be empowering for
people. Um I think there's a lot of
people with lived experience in mental
health who want to make changes who want
to invest and want to do things to try
to make things better for other people.
So to give people the tools to do that I
think is going to be better overall.
>> Yes, absolutely. And really empowers
people to to get around that um some of
those system challenges, doesn't it? So
we know and I know there's a lot of
pressure on you to release that pressure
on hospitals, emergency departments um
and that's a really tough challenge in
your portfolio which is huge. What so
what role do you think um building up
the community or the forest of tall
trees can help in relieving some of
that? Yeah, look, you know, obviously
we're investing in our hospitals and
that's really important because there'll
be some things that inevitably needs to
come to our hospitals and our acute side
of the system. There's a lot of other um
people who could be helped in the
community. Um we're obviously been
investing uh in uh uh Medicare mental
health centers, uh other community
supports, other community mental health
services. Um but this is really even
before all of that as well. This is
about um community connections, human
connections with people. Um and if we
can if we can really make an impact
there, uh then people won't need less of
the primary uh services, let alone the
acute services overall.
>> And and the fact that it's project based
means that people come to the project or
the program kind of knowing the thing
that they want to change based on their
own experience or experience of the
system or familiar experience that
they've gone through. and they've often
got a really strong idea of what it is
that would make a difference in their in
their sphere of influence.
>> And I think, you know, one thing that
you've talked to me about is how these
are all going to be different. It's
going to be different based on people's
experiences, uh, you know, their life
experiences, what they've been through,
their cultural background. It's going to
apply to it differently. People's
occupation is going to be different as
well. It's different experience and
pressures uh working as a paramedic
compared to a firefighter compared to um
you know working in an office or as a
teacher. Everybody's experience is going
to be different and they're going to be
able to apply it and personalize this
for other people.
>> Yeah. So because it emphasizes inclusion
which means that you know the training
is adapted depending on who's learning
it and then communities can take it out
and adapt it and twist it. um what part
of inclusion is important to the overall
health system goals? What are we seeing
in terms of equity?
>> Yeah, well, we've got a very diverse
community um and you're a very
multicultural community. We've obviously
got, as has been mentioned, you know,
with Jack, you know, a wonderful
Aboriginal community uh in this state as
well, but people who have come from all
over the world, people who have a lot of
different backgrounds, obviously um you
know, strong LGBTIQ community as well.
Um so we need to make sure that our
programs uh are diverse are inclusive
can reach different people and the fact
that this can adapt and can be as
inclusive as possible is going to mean
that it's going to make the biggest
impact. If we're not having inclusive
programs that means that there's people
who it won't be able to help and won't
be able to reach. Um, I think one of the
main differences that people have
pointed out about the tall trees program
is the ability to remain anonymous if
you so choose to and most other
champions or ambassador programs around
mental health are all about being front
and center. So why do you think it's
important to have that level of
anonymity when we're approaching people
outside the mental health system to be champions?
champions?
>> Well, I think that's going to help it be
inclusive as well. I mean sadly there is
still a lot of stigma around mental
health and obviously we're doing a lot
of work and you as the commissioner are
doing a lot of work to try to reduce
that stigma but we've got to face that's
a reality that's there and so by having
the ability to be anonymous that means
that people can um bring things to the
table that they otherwise might be
reluctant to share. That's going to make
it stronger. It means we're going to be
able to reach more professional groups
where you know that stigma might be
there. So, you know, a doctor speaking
about um you know, their own mental
health experience might be less likely
to do so if they knew it was going to be
public um and there would be stigma
around that.
>> Yeah, that's right. So, to trees, I
mean, the launch today is about
launching our co-design process. So,
taking a program that was successful
overseas and making sure it's really
tailored to South Australians. Um why is
that code-design approach important to
you? Well, I think things are always
stronger when we work together on
developing them. Um, and while we've got
this program that's been working really
well in New Zealand, um, and you've
helped identify it and bring it to our
attention, um, we want to make sure it's
going to work here in South Australia.
And, uh, to the extent that we can
improve it, make it as fit for purpose
for South Australia as possible, the
best way we can do that is to co-design
it to work with people on that journey
here for our local conditions. So, I'm
really excited. This is now kicking off here.
here.
>> Yeah. So am I.
Look, Minister, one of the really
important things about the original
program in New Zealand is how woven
indigenous culture is through the very
fabric of it from day one.
>> So we we've we've woven through
language, cultural understandings of
social and emotional well-being. Um, in
terms of working with Aboriginal leaders
to weave that Aboriginal cultural um,
wisdom in South Australia, where do you
think the differences are and how does
that align with the government's
commitment to closing the gap?
>> Well, it's really important because um,
you know, we have a big mental health
focus as part of closing the gap and to
be honest, it's been a agenda which
right around the country hasn't been
trending in the right direction. We have
a big suicide prevention challenge with
Aberiginal and Toouristra Islander
communities across the country. And I
think the more research that's done in
terms of Aboriginal health across the
country, we can see that there's not
just a social determinative of health
issue at play in terms of people's
health outcomes, but there's also a
cultural determinant of health outcome.
Um and so having appropriately designed
culturally sensitive um health
interventions such as this one are going
to make it uh more useful and more
applicable for Aboriginal communities
and ultimately lead to improvements we
want to see in terms of suicide
prevention and improving mental health
in our Aboriginal community.
>> Yeah. Fantastic.
So, as the program rolls out, and this
is kind of a message to to us as we're
leading this, what would success look
like you, Minister?
>> Yeah. Well, and and this is always the
challenge when we're dealing with
prevention programs is um you know, you
can't automatically see uh the payoff.
Often that will be decades in the
making. U but I I'm really looking
forward to I think that we're going to
hear some really exciting personal
stories of what these achievements are
going to be of the projects that people
have undertaken and the differences that
it will have made for individual lives.
I think those those personal experiences
are going to be really telling um and
hopefully it's just going to keep going
from strength to strength.
>> I hope so too. So uh any last messages
to South Australians about the
opportunity that tall trees represents
here? Yeah. Well, look, I'd encourage
people to be part of this co-design
process. I think it's going to be a lot
stronger the more input that we can get.
And then once we have it up and running,
um, you know, all of those people out
there who are passionate about mental
health, who want to make a difference,
this is going to be something to be part
of, um, so that you can apply your lived
experience or your passion uh, for
mental health uh, to be able to make a
difference for other people. And so the
call is really out to to be part of this.
this.
>> Thank you, Minister. Thank you for
championing the program and um for your
support along the way as we've done our
due diligence and making sure it's going
to be fit for South Australia. I look
forward to training you as a tool tree.
>> Indeed, looking forward to it.
>> Trees now about what the program has
most about Alcoord is actually the
number of people um engaged across the
country involved in this particular
piece of mahi and and work. I think it's
absolutely fantastic to see young and
old and a mixture of ethnicities and
cultures kind of all banding together
for this one piece of passionate and
Gotto. Hello, Matt Ducey here, Minister
for Mental Health in New Zealand. Thank
you for allowing me to send in a video
to you from Over the Ditch about a topic
that I am truly passionate about. I've
been calling lived experience the quiet
revolution in New Zealand, not because
it's new, but because it's starting to
gain more traction here in this country.
I've seen how powerful lived experience
can be for people experiencing mental
health and addiction challenges. When
people share their own stories, it helps
people feel less alone, shows others
that there is hope and a way forward,
and helps break down stigma and
discrimination. We're rolling out peer
support workers in our emergency
departments. And the feedback received
so far has been fantastic. to share a
couple with you. I had a woman in
Wellington tell me how surreal it was to
be there that day as a peer support
worker in the same emergency department.
She herself came through the ED in a
crisis a few years earlier. She also
shared her passion for showing others
now that there is a way through. In
Deneden, I was told when she thinks of
her own experience of going into an
emergency department in what can only be
described as the worst day of her life,
this is exactly the type of service she
wishes she had when she was struggling.
Someone who can say, "I see you. I hear
you. I know what you are going through."
Often when people are struggling, they
may look online to find someone in a
similar position as them who survived
the same struggles. This is because as
humans, we want connection and to hear
someone voice similar struggles and hear
how they may have got through it. So we
know there is light at the end of the
tunnel. That's how powerful storytelling
can be. As a government, we're
fast-tracking the rolling out of peer
support workers across mental health
services. They're already supporting
people in some of our busiest emergency
departments and we're now bringing them
into our eating disorder services and a
new peer-led crisis recovery cafes. I'm
really proud of the fact that since
coming into government, the peer support
lived experience workforce has grown by
almost 100%. Raqqao is a great example
of the difference lived experience can
make with hundreds of people with lived
experience of mental distress, addiction
or substance use that are sharing their
stories and creating positive change
within their communities. Thank you for
letting me speak with you today on such
an important topic. Namihi, thank you.
it back to the Raco is and being a tor
being someone that you know is not just
standing up or above the rest but is
actually there as a pope.
>> Um is actually there as a um a homaru or
something of safety to you know take
care of all the other little to trees
growing up beneath you. um being an example,
example,
>> uh being an inspiration, um and changing
the world.
>> Changing the world basically. Yeah. And
planting seeds in little conversations.
E I love that where you talk to someone
in a bar or whatever and they say
something stigmatizing and you just
listen and then you just acknowledge and
then you plant a little seed. Different
way of thinking maybe
My name is Kevin Harper. I am proud to
be a totry and CEO chief enabler for
changing minds. Changing minds is a
lived experience organization that
operates as part of the lived experience
community in New Zealand.
Through our work, we know that people
with lived experience gains strength
from learning and discovery. We see how
this knowledge supports others and
creates change when we together. The
power of collective knowledge and action
is captured in the Rakaroa and to trees
program. Tanga M aiako people with lived
experience co-designed Rakara as a
community leadership program. that
challenge prejudice and discrimination
and create projects for change.
This action is now led by a diverse
community of more than 200 graduates.
Here in New Zealand, we see that lived
experience is increasingly mandated to
participate in system and service
change. We see that this change often
starts at a community level and grows
with social action. Action to challenge
community and society behaviors and
beliefs is difficult. Confronting,
isolating, vulnerable. The tall tree
program and community provide support to
do this together.
Sharing strength and knowledge between
communities and across borders and to
understand differences will grow and
unite a collective lived experience
force for action.
We have seen the strength of lived
experience community to create change.
We look forward to working together. Kyoto
Kyoto tennoto.
Good day. We're back live uh live with
Tammy and uh Tammy. Tall trees began in
New Zealand. Um can you tell us uh sort
of how it came about and why it's been
so successful?
>> Yeah, sure. In New Zealand, it's known
as Rako Roora, which loosely translates
as tall trees. And it stems from uh the
national stigma and discrimination
reduction program called like minds like
mine or no. Um and what we what ordinary
happens in in codeesign is things don't
always work out the way you thought. So
we thought it was going to be a lived
experience leadership program, which of
course it is. But when we started um
looking at social movements around the
world and what actually creates change,
uh we decided that we wanted to put
something in the hands of people with
lived experience and their allies that
would actually grow and they could own.
So it's not owned by someone. It's like
a program that flies in, flies out, but
people grab it, own it, and what it does
is it snowballs and it creates a real
social movement. So, like I said to the
minister, it's really unlike a champions
or ambassador program um because it was
recognized uh in that co-design process
that a lot of the change makers out
there aren't in mental health already
and they might not be that comfortable
with being really public about their
lived experience, but they had
experiences, skills, and influence in
the communities that they were living
and working in. So if you were in the
defense force, you obviously had
experience in the defense force and
knows those systems and what you needed
to change. Um so all of I think the
beauty of Raor tall trees is that it
expands way beyond the mental health
sector into every single sector,
community and fabric of life because
it's so adaptable. Um, it empowers
people with lived and living experience
and their allies to be local change
leaders and we know there's a lot of
those in South Australia already, but
they maybe don't have the skills, the
tools or know what the the legal
boundaries are there. So, I think the
idea is pretty simple. What what tall
trees does is it teaches people how to
use their stories for change, not
necessarily stand up and tell their
story. That's a real difference. So it
shifts that culture from fear and
silence into real safety, understanding
and conclusion. So over time the forest
grows from these individual leaders to a
real connected forest of tall trees
where the ones that have been around
longer shelter the kind of new and
upcoming leaders or or
>> um you know uh seedlings really. So I I
like to call it the the woodwide web.
>> Woodide web. That's great.
Um, so what uh what makes the program so
important for South Australia right now?
>> Yeah. Well, look, I've been here for two
years um as of next week in South
Australia back home. Um and we've seen
I've seen since I've been here across
the state a real strain on both our
people, our communities, our kin,
>> our systems, our indigenous leaders that
have to hold so much knowledge. Um
there's a lot of uh system harm still
happening. There's a lot of confusion
from people on where to go, what to do.
There's a lot of fear about doing the
wrong thing, you know, and forgetting
our humanness. Um, so a lot of people we
find are reaching crisis uh before
they're actually met with the support
that they need. And if if they had that
support and that that peer network, they
they probably wouldn't get to crisis. So
tall trees works way upstream and it
actually changes the conditions that
would otherwise lead to crisis by giving
people practical tools to tackle
prejudice, self-stigma, isolation,
>> helps people seek help earlier uh and
from trusted sources uh that won't
stigmatize or discriminate against them.
It helps build that community connection
and ultimately it reduces the uh demand
on acute services because people are
supporting each other and because you've
got that network all across the state
people know what's good and kind of pass
on those recommendations. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> that's great. I love that notion that
it's um upstream and um yes before it
gets to the turbulent waters. So yeah,
that's great.
>> Um so how does tour trees work uh from a
dayto day?
>> Yeah, sure. Um so basically there's kind
of three parts of the program. when you
want to uh join to trees, you you kind
of come with an idea of something you
want to change already. Like I said to
the minister, maybe there's something
that's happened to you or happened to
your loved one. You go, I don't want
that to happen to anyone else. Or maybe
there's something about where you live
or your work that you just go, if that
changed, things would be a lot
different. And so, um, participants
receive structured training over two
days. Uh, they get a mentor that they
choose based on what their project is.
So for example, if you're um you want to
change policy, you might get some policy
people as your mentors. If you're um
trying to uh to write a play, you might
get some playrs as your men. So those
that that network of mentors is really
wide and varied. And then there's that
growing peer support. So it's a closed
online forum where people can connect
and it's safe. So built into the program
is safety for you and safety for
everyone in that network from day one.
Um, part of that personal change project
is working out where are your spheres of
influence? What can I change? What might
I need some support with? Um, so it
might be sparking honest conversations
at work. It could be improving service
navigation in a rural town. It could be
launching a creative campaign. Um, so
there's all sorts of things. It depends
on how visible you want to be. Um, we
support them with strong boundaries. So
there's really great examples of that.
So, we've had um uh police come in and
do the training that want to remain
anonymous, but they've changed the way
that armed offenders go out to
situations to be far more compassionate
in suicide prevention rather than
command and control. We've had um
amazing project of um a rainbow boxing
gyms starting all over the country which
invites people um of LGBTQIA, SB plus to
come in and learn self-defense in a
really safe place. Um, or it could be as
small as just having a conversation with
a friend or an Uber driver that has a
thousand conversations in a cab, you
know. So, the project is really personal
to you. It doesn't have to take a lot of time.
time.
>> Yeah. Well, that's great. Um, this is
something we've touched on a couple of
times already, but the the program in
New Zealand is rich with Mari language,
uh, well-being frameworks. It's just so
interwoven. um how how are we going to
be looking at um weaving um um
Aboriginal culture into the South
Australian program?
>> Um as you know, Philip, that's actually
the most exciting part for me. Um so,
we've started to have some
conversations, but we're hoping that
this webinar invites um more of our
Aboriginal leaders to come and um walk
alongside us so that we can learn from
you of of um how do we embed that into
the program from the beginning. Now,
we've got a slightly harder challenge
here in South Australia that there's so
many uh languages, cultures, skin groups
um and storytelling lines that um what
we need to do is work out how can
communities adapt it that makes them own
it themselves and take it forward.
um really really important to me is that
every single model of social and
emotional well-being, the indigenous
models from around the world,
particularly the ones that are localized
are the most important part of the
program because it helps broaden all of
our knowledge of holistic health. That's
that's super important. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, a lot more work to do, but
>> lots more work to do.
>> Um so, uh some people worry about
initiatives tied to systems that have
caused harm. So how does tall trees off
operate differently to that?
>> Yeah, I think it's really important to
note that this isn't just another mental
health training.
>> So and it doesn't replace uh any mental
health trainings are out there. In fact,
if anything, it it complements and it
boosts those and it and it grows them.
It sits way outside the clinical system.
In fact, um if you want to enter the
program and you say you've lived have
lived experience, that's defined by you.
You know, we we never ask you what that
is and you never have to share that with
you. But you are taught how to use that
knowledge and experience and that wisdom
for good. Um we do find though a lot of
clinicians tend to join it to go how can
I use my lived experience in my work
without you know being a lived
experience leader or a peer support
worker and really understanding that
boundary between those professional
spaces. Uh but mostly it's it's about um
understanding and respect and returning
agency to the people that are most
affected by prejudice.
>> Yeah. Yeah, fantastic. Um, so, uh, how
long would the training take and would
there be opportunities to keep building
on those skills?
>> Yeah, so the formal training is two full
days. Uh, and often we ask the community
when when do those days suit you and in
New Zealand it was often on a weekend
because people have day jobs. And then
that's followed by mentorship and um uh
to help you get your projects into base
and but then there's ongoing
opportunities for leadership and growing
skills across the lifetime and as people
do their projects people are invited
into other people's projects and they
learn from that too. But we have um had
lots of occasions where there's ongoing
collaboration between lots of tall
trees. So um there was quite a lot of
occasions for example when tall trees
have come together to coordinate a
response as individually concerned
citizens about something that's been
really harmful or stigmatizing either in
media or a project and they've been able
to to shut that down as a collective
which has been
>> great. We had a video earlier on of a of
a coming together of the of the forest wasn't
wasn't
>> that's right. Yeah. and they have had
media training in that so those who
wanted to be spokespeople could learn
how to um use their stories in the media
without getting kind of caught out. So
yeah, lots of those sorts of
opportunities. Yeah.
>> Thank you.
>> Um so how can tortures make a difference
in say small towns and remote areas
where services are are more scarce.
>> Yeah. Well, uh, look, we've already seen
through drought relief algo bloom that
the amount of extraordinary strength and
resilience in our rural towns, but also
how much they're crying out
>> for a networked response. So, this means
that there's not one burden on one
person and one leader in a rural town to
kind of hold that.
>> And one of the things we found in in New
Zealand, I'm sure we will find here too,
is some of our rural um leaders are
actually the best at navigating the
system because it's harder to navigate
when they're few and far between. So
when people are linked together, um
they're going to be amazing system
navigators. They can support each other
if they're miles away. Uh so look, I
think um that sustainability means
growing capability within the community
and not relying on those fly in flyout
projects. So and and like I said before,
the most important part of it is that
once you've done the training, you own it.
it.
>> You don't have to tell us you're doing
it. You don't you can twist it and
change it however it's going to suit
your community. It's not an an IP we own.
own. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. It's really important.
>> That's great. Um neurodiversity, how
does tall trees support um neurodeiverse
communities and and particularly with
non-western understandings of mental health?
health?
>> Yeah. Well, uh like I said, the
indigenous culture is built in from day
one and it's woven all through the
program, not as kind of a standalone
slide of what the social and emotional
well-being, you know, it's like how do
you actually embed that in the way of
working? And um look, our deaf community
in Aliro and New Zealand was a prime
example of how they adapted it for them.
They they they ran it themselves. They
did it in um sign New Zealand sign
language. Continue to grow that. And
some of the projects that have come out
of that uh for example, I think one of
our deaf tall trees won a prize at KHN
for his film. Um, and the program itself
won um the New Zealand Adult Learning
Award for the best adapt adaptation of
learning because it's not a sitdown
training where you've got homework and
worksheets and stuff like that. It's
actually gamified. Um, you do a lot of
activities. There's a lot of yarning and
it's it's about learning from each other
with kind of guided facilitation on
about seven modules.
>> Oh, that's great.
>> Um, so, uh, tall trees helps with
building networks uh to support system
navigation. Um but how can SIS um how
can it support system navigation change
so that those navigation challenges are
removed altogether?
>> Yeah, look in a million ways just a
little bit like um we didn't get to the
moon by thinking it was a good idea one
day but it started off with a telephone
and you know there's a series of
incremental changes. So what we what we
find is the more projects that happen,
the more that kind of goes into the
fabric of what is just normal
>> in society that it's it's um it's normal
to disrupt. It's normal to have to
revere the lived experience as the
qualification for being part of that. And
And
>> um and ultimately what we find is that
that creates a tipping point. And when
there's everybody saying that, then
that's when policy gets changed and
politics gets changed. That's when um
you find that journalism changes for the
best when there's just a whole lot of
people saying the same thing.
>> Guerrilla advocacy, I call it.
>> Yeah, that's great.
>> Um so many community leaders are already
stretched. How would you prevent u
burnout to ensure tall trees is sustainable?
sustainable?
>> Actually, and another cool thing about
it, I think, is that your only
commitment really is that two days
training and that's you know you do that
if you want to no one's forcing anyone
to do it
>> but um then you depend on how much you
want to be involved in the network it's
it's always online it's always there and
some people tap in and tap out they
might collaborate they might have some
mentorship as they think and and develop
their project but mostly it's you come
in and and when you need it and if you
need it and I know some tool trees have
said very openly that at times in their
life um it it's literally saved their
life because they know there's an online
community that they can trust to go there.
there. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Oh, that's fantastic.
>> Um, so um, how will we know that Tall
Trees is working?
>> Well, if you're an evaluator over there,
we want to talk to you too because one
of the one of the challenges I think is
because people are in the program, they
go and do their projects, they don't
need to report back to us. So that the
attributable effect of the changes are
happening really hard to capture, but
we're hoping that we're going to look at
capturing three levels of success. So
personal level um how do participants
feel in terms of safety, confidence,
well-being on a community level like how
far do those projects live uh reach and
what has been the shift um in
helpseeking or community building? And
then from a system point of view, are
people seeking help early? Are they
feeling more supportive? Are they've got
stronger collaboration? Is there more
choices out there? Has advocacy filtered
into the system and helped with redesign
transformation? um shifting referral
pathways, policy, improving
accessibility, all of those things are
important to the system.
>> Um but we have to explore that um that
evaluation framework and make out yeah
work out. But but also we've got and I
know we've got on the call a few
philanthropists which is really exciting
because whilst we can host it at the
commission and do the training, what's
really important to us is that
communities can then own it and build it
themselves and that then if they've got
a great project and it maybe aligns with
philanthropy then those projects might
be able to get a micro grant or
something like that.
>> Oh, that's great.
>> Um so this is like the the rub really.
You spent years challenging step
>> 25. There we go.
>> Not that I look that old.
>> So what what what actually changes it? >> What?
>> What?
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Well, I mean there's actually a whole
module in tall trees about it called the
power of contact. But but that's
essentially what it is. It's
>> um we learned through 25 years of doing
this work that I can't stand up in front
of an audience that don't relate to me
and vice versa. And so, you know, I um
mates in construction I know are on this
call, they absolutely can relate to
those working in construction. Um
whereas they might not look at me and
think, "Oh, you've got nothing. You
know, I don't relate to you." Same with
police working with police. Um ambos
working with ambers, politicians working
with politicians. It's about
>> um really relating to that story. And so
when you see someone that you go, "Oh,
you're just like me and you've been able
to change things and I can too." That's
what creates the shift.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um so, uh how can individuals or small
organizations be part of the co-design
or the early pilots?
>> I think you're going to tell them about
that, aren't they? I think, um Philip is
going to launch a um EOI and expression
of interest after this webinar. So, if
you're interested in being part of the
program either as a participant in
helping us with code design, if you've
got a subject matter expertise, it might
be cultural, it might be in training, it
might be anything, if you want to be a
facilitator, if you want to be a mentor
with all sorts of different skills,
that'll all be part of the EOI, just let
us know and we'd love for you to be involved.
involved.
>> That's great. Um, and finally, what's
your vision for tall trees over the next
few years?
>> I'm very lucky to see their vision
having played out in New Zealand. So
it's hundreds of South Australians um
tall trees creating this real forest and
leading change in every single corner of
the state in every single community in
families and workplaces. Um I want to
see help seeking as normal lived
experience as revered inclusion as
expected and normal and that that
strength that we all bring in our lived
wisdom. It shapes every conversation
around mental health. That's what's
important to me. So, and I, you know, if
I'm going to be really corny now, I
think today plants those seen of change,
>> but ultimately we want to grow a whole
forest of tall trees that shelters
everyone. And I want us to become this
kind of underground network that feeds
each other and keeps us safe.
>> Yeah. Terrific. Thank you so much. um
you've mentioned uh a few times uh so
far around the projects. So, we're lucky
to um uh to have had you've been able to
con uh make contact with one of the
previous tall trees. So, Juliet
Silverstone um who uh you've sat down
with virtually and and had an interview.
So, we're going to go to that interview.
>> And she's a journalist in New Zealand
that's been able to create a lot of
change and won some awards for it.
>> Yeah. So,
>> Best thing about being a part of Raco is
that we quite often go through our lives
and have people in our lives but never
quite know their stories. But um right
from the very start of being a part of
this um we all have this shared
experience um without even needing to
disclose fully what we have experienced. So
So
just having that connection there has
made it especially easy just to connect
with everyone and just knowing that
everyone's come from such different
backgrounds while having similar
experiences. We've got all these
different pools of experience and
>> Cod Juliet, how are you?
>> Cod, I'm wonderful, thank you. How about yourself?
yourself?
>> Really great. Hey, thank you so much for
joining us on the webinar today. We've
got a whole lot of people here in South
Australia that are pretty excited to
learn a little bit more about tall
trees. And I thought interviewing a tall
tree who's used to interviewing other
people instead might be a really great
way of helping people understand what it
means on the ground to to be a tool tree
and then have a project that you deliver
that makes change in your world. So
maybe if you can start by telling us who
you are and what you do.
>> Yeah, absolutely. Uh so yeah, I'm
Juliet. I'm a journalist here in New
Zealand and uh back in 2018 I received a
grant from the mental health foundation
to produce a podcast series limited uh
podcast series. The overall goal of the
brief from the foundation as part of the
grant was uh to help reduce stigma
around supporting people with mental
distress. And I wanted to create a
podcast that highlighted real people
with their real lived experience, not
just you know academics telling you what
you should do. uh but actual people who
had their own set of experiences who uh
were in a position to be able to share
their stories and feel comfortable
sharing those stories and a little bit
about um not too much so much on the
details of what it was like in their
worst moments but more about what helped
them get through. Who were the people
who showed up, who didn't show up, and
what did that look like? What did their
support network look like? What does
showing up for somebody with mental
distress look like? And uh so I did a
number of different interviews in that
podcast and in each one it highlighted
one person and their experience and one
of their core support people um shared a
little bit about what it was like for
them too on the other side because it's
always a bit challenging. Um it can be
very challenging supporting someone with
mental distress but together you know
you can really do amazing things and uh
yeah so that was pretty much the the
basis of the project. I was quite
deliberate that I didn't want to make it
too high-end production. I really just
wanted it to be a conversation because
like anything with mental health really
so much of it just starts with a
conversation and somebody listening on
the other on the other side. And so that
was uh the podcast. It was called Just
Listen. And it was just an opportunity
to share people's real life stories
about what it was like for them and what
was helpful during those moments as well
and what continues to be helpful for them.
them.
>> So when you were told about tall trees
and that perhaps you should come and do
this training, did you did you know what
to expect? Did you think it was just
going to be another mental health training?
training?
>> I Yeah, I had no idea to be honest. Um,
and so, but I I was I you know, I as a
journalist, like I had my own lived
experience of mental distress, which is
part of why I was so interested in this
field as well and being able to kind of
share people's stories. And I think I
was really interested in learning more
about things like language because as a
journalist I have seen terrible terrible
descriptions of mental health in the
media in the headlines and it it it's it
really doesn't help people. There are so
many people that at some point
experience mental distress in their
lifetime. the worst thing you can do is
isolate them and make them, you know,
feel like they are it's like a them and
us. And so part of the project, yeah,
again, it's like highlighting what it
actually means to live with mental
distress and to kind of break down those
barriers rather than somebody outside
looking in. I really wanted to connect
with people so that we were just still
sharing stories. Um, and so the training
was really helpful with that because we
looked at some really unhelpful examples
of the media.
>> Yeah. And especially when, you know, go
back, you know, 30, 40 years, 50 years
or so. I mean, it's just outrageous.
Like, you would never see any of that
kind of stuff written as a headline in
in New Zealand these days, and I'm sure
in Australia, too. Um, and so it was
good to be able to see the sort of the
evolution of how things have changed,
but also recognizing just how much work
still needed to take place in the way we
tell mental health stories in the media.
We need to tell them. They are so
important to share for a variety of
reasons. one, it helps people um
understand others what's going on and
breaking down those barriers, uh
breaking down the stigma around mental
health. And for those people who are
experiencing mental distress themselves,
for them to know that they're not alone
and that there are other people out
there who who can relate and who know
what it's like to be them as well. So
finding that those stories existed and
you could tap into them, it was a little
bit different from I guess trying to
find people that had those stories that
wanted to speak to you, but actually
becoming a tall tree yourself and being
part of that network that you could kind
of tap into at any time. So what what
did that mean to you becoming a tall
tree, especially in your work in the media?
media?
>> It's a yeah, a really good question. I
think um it allowed me to, you know,
mentioned a lot about learning how to
tell mental health stories, but it was
also about the connections um and I
think understanding that there were
people there. Um it can be quite scary
as a journalist approaching people to
share their stories because you know
that they're being vulnerable. They're
sharing a lot. They're putting their
hearts hearts out there on the line. Um,
and so there was this element of uh a
space where I knew these people had had
been through their journey but were in a
safe place to share their stories.
>> And years on from doing this training,
has it still stuck? How has it shifted
the way you tell stories and and use
your voice in the media for real change?
Yeah, I think the the the people first
focus, you know, just remembering it's I
think in the media sometimes with with
journalism and stories and there's a lot
of well-meaning journalists out there,
but it can still be a bit um yeah
outside looking in or kind of me versus
you or us versus them. And it's really
important to just be on the same level.
We're all human beings. We all have
stages in our lives that are going to be
particularly maybe stressful or or the
periods of our lives that uh we have
some real huge amounts of distress to
deal with and and that's that's normal
for everybody to to have some kind of
distress in their life. So, we need to
stop making it a a case of, you know, if
you're suffering from mental distress,
and I use the word suffering as
something that I did learn uh not to use
because it's like, well, you're living
with mental distress. The sort of
language changes like that were really,
really valuable. Um, and yeah, like I
say, I see it with other journalists
well-meaning, but sometimes it's still a
bit like othering and wanting to
highlight how serious something is. But
I think it's you just got to remember
these pe the people the people first and
I think yeah language is just so
important particularly when we're
discussing mental distress particularly
if we want to break down stereotypes and
the stigma around these sorts of things.
We really do need to take our use of
language seriously.
>> Fantastic. I've got one last question
for you and I I'm hoping I'm not putting
you on the spot but I reckon you should
do this. So, if you had to create a
headline for either your own tall tree
story or to tell others about tall
trees, what would that be?
I was thinking about this as a headline,
but I'm actually going to use the name
of the podcast that I did, which was
just listen because I think every story
starts with just listening. And I know
in my own personal experience, in some
of the darkest moments that I had, I
really wish somebody was just there just
to listen. That would have made a world
of difference. And so, yeah, we're going
to go with that.
>> I love it. I love it. Any last words for
these people that have just come along
today to find out what Tall Trees is about?
about?
>> Oh, I just think, you know, we've got so
much work to do. We've got so much work
to do here in New Zealand and in
Australia in regards to helping break
down those stereotypes and stigma and
and really focusing on what it means to
live with mental distress rather than suffer from mental distress. Um we've
suffer from mental distress. Um we've still got so much work to do in the
still got so much work to do in the media especially in how we talk about
media especially in how we talk about it. Um and so any opportunity to kind of
it. Um and so any opportunity to kind of just share and learn and highlight, you
just share and learn and highlight, you know, it makes such a big difference.
know, it makes such a big difference. You know, there's and sometimes it's the
You know, there's and sometimes it's the little things. It's the little ripple
little things. It's the little ripple effects. What you think you're doing, it
effects. What you think you're doing, it might not feel like it's having a big
might not feel like it's having a big massive impact, but if everyone can just
massive impact, but if everyone can just do a little bit of work and it helps one
do a little bit of work and it helps one other person, then that is 100% worth
other person, then that is 100% worth it.
it. >> That's so amazing, Julia. I really thank
>> That's so amazing, Julia. I really thank you for joining us today from across the
you for joining us today from across the ditch just to share some of your
ditch just to share some of your knowledge and wisdom in doing the
knowledge and wisdom in doing the program. So, thanks very much, Kakado.
program. So, thanks very much, Kakado. Kakiano,
Kakiano, >> thank you so much.
So, um, back again. We're getting close to the to the end now. Um, your
to the to the end now. Um, your reflections are really important to us.
reflections are really important to us. So, immediately following this
So, immediately following this presentation, there'll be a short survey
presentation, there'll be a short survey uh from the mental health education hub
uh from the mental health education hub um which keeps them um on track and
um which keeps them um on track and improving their quality. Um, following
improving their quality. Um, following up, we're going to uh send out an
up, we're going to uh send out an expression of in interest invitation uh
expression of in interest invitation uh to to get your help with the next stage.
to to get your help with the next stage. So, as we mentioned, we'll be looking at
So, as we mentioned, we'll be looking at uh some input with code design,
uh some input with code design, facilitation,
facilitation, people that are interested in being a
people that are interested in being a mentor, um subject matter experts, and
mentor, um subject matter experts, and of course, as participants, um we're
of course, as participants, um we're also keen to get your reflections
also keen to get your reflections directly. So, we'll send out a short
directly. So, we'll send out a short survey with that. And please feel free
survey with that. And please feel free to reach out by email, phone, or or to
to reach out by email, phone, or or to catch up in person. Um we um we also
catch up in person. Um we um we also have some social media accounts. So
have some social media accounts. So please if you're not already following
please if you're not already following us on Facebook and LinkedIn, please um
us on Facebook and LinkedIn, please um please give us a follow and you can
please give us a follow and you can catch up on everything from Tammy and
catch up on everything from Tammy and your mental health commission. So um
your mental health commission. So um thanks for joining us and um very short
thanks for joining us and um very short video and then over to Tammy.
um working in this field whether it's about stigma
in this field whether it's about stigma and discrimination or whether it's about
and discrimination or whether it's about um um I don't know anything to do with
um um I don't know anything to do with recovery or mental health or suicide
recovery or mental health or suicide prevention or um uh uh work in addiction
prevention or um uh uh work in addiction or whatever it might be is the people
or whatever it might be is the people like I have met the most wonderful
like I have met the most wonderful people uh in this in the many years that
people uh in this in the many years that I've been in this mahi
I've been in this mahi Um and it has something to do with
people who have uh who life has dealt some tough times to really
some tough times to really um you know you have to go through a
um you know you have to go through a process yourself uh that makes you look
process yourself uh that makes you look internally and find your strengths and
internally and find your strengths and when you find your strengths then you
when you find your strengths then you connect with other people who have done
connect with other people who have done similar journeys and and it's magic. So
similar journeys and and it's magic. So honestly the best thing about this mahi
honestly the best thing about this mahi and anyone getting into it is the
and anyone getting into it is the relationships that you'll form and the
relationships that you'll form and the connections uh that will come from it
connections uh that will come from it that will be life that will be for life.
that will be life that will be for life. Yeah,
we are at the end and I'm sure you're grateful for that. Thank you very much
grateful for that. Thank you very much for sticking with us right to the end. I
for sticking with us right to the end. I know we're a little bit over time, but I
know we're a little bit over time, but I want to send my deepest thanks and
want to send my deepest thanks and gratitude for all the people that helped
gratitude for all the people that helped us today. All of you for joining online.
us today. All of you for joining online. In particular, our guest today, Jack
In particular, our guest today, Jack Buckskin, Bori Tangapaya Tukiwahu, Her
Buckskin, Bori Tangapaya Tukiwahu, Her Excellency, the Honorable Francis
Excellency, the Honorable Francis Adamson. Uh the Honorable Chris Pikton,
Adamson. Uh the Honorable Chris Pikton, MP Minister for Mental Health and
MP Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, the Honorable Matt Ducey,
Well-being, the Honorable Matt Ducey, Minister for Mental Health in New
Minister for Mental Health in New Zealand, Kevin Harper, CEO of Changing
Zealand, Kevin Harper, CEO of Changing Minds, Juliet Silverstrom, uh the
Minds, Juliet Silverstrom, uh the journalist and New Zealand tall tree. uh
journalist and New Zealand tall tree. uh lots of our tall trees on our box pops
lots of our tall trees on our box pops and of course Philip Chabrell for
and of course Philip Chabrell for hosting today. Um thank you so much to
hosting today. Um thank you so much to our host the mental health education hub
our host the mental health education hub of SA and the team of Grant Adrien
of SA and the team of Grant Adrien Linder and Tim and our special guests
Linder and Tim and our special guests today uh the honorable Nadia Clancy the
today uh the honorable Nadia Clancy the MP and assistant minister for mental
MP and assistant minister for mental health. Thank you for your championing
health. Thank you for your championing of this program. Marina Bochell, the CEO
of this program. Marina Bochell, the CEO of Preventive Health SA and Mers Peter
of Preventive Health SA and Mers Peter Hunter, Renmark and Ella Winel from
Hunter, Renmark and Ella Winel from Barry Balmer Councils. And we've got all
Barry Balmer Councils. And we've got all sorts of people on this call. We've got
sorts of people on this call. We've got CEOs in leadership of lift experience of
CEOs in leadership of lift experience of peak bodies. We have um philanthropy on
peak bodies. We have um philanthropy on board. We have a whole lot of
board. We have a whole lot of commissioners that look after different
commissioners that look after different space and they're my amazing colleagues
space and they're my amazing colleagues in commissioning and the challenging
in commissioning and the challenging work that they do. a lot of consumers
work that they do. a lot of consumers and carers, policy makers, peak bodies,
and carers, policy makers, peak bodies, as I said, foundations, educators,
as I said, foundations, educators, universities, all sorts of people as
universities, all sorts of people as well as um a big thank you to our
well as um a big thank you to our suicide prevention networks for joining
suicide prevention networks for joining us on this call. We look forward to
us on this call. We look forward to hearing you and being part of the
hearing you and being part of the co-design and um welcoming you as a tool
co-design and um welcoming you as a tool tree where you can wear these badges
tree where you can wear these badges like Philip. Okay, byebye. Kitiano, good
like Philip. Okay, byebye. Kitiano, good day and
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