This podcast episode explores the privacy features of the Bitcoin Lightning Network, comparing it to Monero and other privacy-enhancing technologies. The discussion delves into various aspects of privacy, including sender, receiver, network-level, and amount privacy, and examines the practical implications and limitations of each.
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hello there and welcome to the Bitcoin
takeover podcast this is season 16
episode 6 we are live with super testet
and this episode is sponsored by layer 2
Labs craa no one hl. CH and. no joke I'm
going to ask you about
craa okay
great and uh the reason why we decided
to do this is that you recently put a
listing on a dark web Market you're
selling chocolates or cookies or
something in exchange for Bitcoin on the
lightning network is that
correct I'm not selling them I found I
found someone who was selling them on a
dark net market and I was like oh wow
there's a darket market that accepts lightning
lightning
and so I posted it so yeah your claim is
that lightning is more private than
Monero and that's sort of the reason why
we decided to do this yes and thank you
for having me on it's an honor to be on
your podcast and uh admire what you do
the honor is on my side sir so let's
start with this what is private about
the lightning Network you have sender
privacy you have receiver privacy you
have Network level privacy and you have
amounts privacy which one of these does
lightning have
uh four of it it has aspects of all four
I think the one it's the worst at is
amount privacy um and the ones that's
and then is really good at the other
ones can we do a further analysis
because as far as I know lightning has
pretty good sender privacy which is
exactly what Bitcoin onchain doesn't
have when you send Bitcoin onchain you
can see how many coins the sender has in their
their
utxo unless you send from coin join but
that's a bit more complicated to pull
out or pull off but in the case of
lightning you get Sender privacy which
is pretty good when you know humble brag
when I sold Bitcoin to buy my Lexus I
actually use the lightning Network on
Kraken because I was thinking that I
don't want their blockchain analysis
whatever to flag my coins if I used coin
joints in the past and the fact that I
sent from the lightning Network gave me
you know much better both privacy and
also it didn't let me deal with
blockchain analysis so that's pretty
sweet about lightning yeah one one of
the ways that it uh does that is by
encrypting a lot of the information so
when when your node picks a route to
find to to to say I wantan to I want to
pay you know Kraken uh you have to find
a path along the lightning Network that
you're gonna pay Bob and Bob's going to
pay Carol and Carol's goingon to pay
Dave and Dave's going to pay Kraken and
that route we use onion encryption
similar to the to tour uh to make it so
that uh Bob only knows that some someone
on this side is paying someone on this
side but he doesn't know who and then
Carol only knows that someone on this
side's paying someone on this side and
so forth till you get all the way to
Kraken and they just know uh Dave Dave
forwarded this payment to us but we
don't know who the actual sender was uh
so it's really good at hiding the sender
by you know by these layers of
encryption um similar to how the onion
router does it
yeah that's a very good way to compare
it with onion routing I think that's
also the source of inspiration for the
routing design in lightning on the other
hand when you do send someone an invoice
they're going to be able to see what
type of wallet you're using and a lot of
stuff including the amount that you're
requesting so it's not very private for
the person sending out an invoice
whereas in the case of Bitcoin onchain
if you send a new address that you
generate from your wallet there's going
to be
no way for the sender to know that it's
really your address or where it comes
from I think that um lightning invoices
have better privacy than Monero stealth
addresses would you like me to tell you
why oh that's a big claim go on yeah um
so in um in both Monero stealth address
and in a lightning invoice there's a Pub
Key um but this Pub Key in lightning is
only used for communication it's used
for signing messages but not for
receiving money uh and in Monero the
public key is only used to derive uh the
actual public key that you're going to
send the money to uh but the a
consequence of this is that on Monero
the sender can see exactly what address
that they sent the money to like the one
where the money ended up because they
derived that from the public key in the
Monero address or in this in the uh the
the public I think they call it public
address uh in lightning it's different
like you don't actually send money to
the public that's just used for
communication you're sending it you know
in this encrypted route and you don't
actually see the last hop you don't see
what htlc it's going into or how that
htlc gets resolved you don't see what
address is involved so uh if someone is
like subing you for information and they
want to know what address did you send
this money to you can honestly say on
Lightning I don't even know even if I
kept logs I wouldn't have that
information whereas with Monero you know
a lot of the ways that they track this
is they go to like morph token or um or
a fixed float and they're like what what
is the actual address that you sent the
money to because the sender knows in
Monero and you just don't want
lightning yeah I do get this point that
there's less information that gets
stored on your wallet side because
that's what this is about on Monero you
are able to see to whom you have sent
the transactions maybe that's an outside
Observer who's watching the blockchain
will not know but if they get access to
your wallet they're going to be able to
see your history of transactions and
also in the case of Monero you can give
up on the
Privacy especially I know that in the
Monero node wallet that you're on on
desktop you can choose to make your
transaction transparent and reveal the
amounts or reveal some information you
can also export a history of your
transactions if you want to reveal that
to someone
so privacy is on by default in
Monero but your wallet knows what what
you're doing and you also store that
information so if you really want to
have good privacy you have to dispose
wallets and just move money around
across different wallets you're saying
that lightning does not store that
information it's not just that it
doesn't store it you actually don't know
you you don't know what the channel is
that your recipient has with his
counterparty um you don't know what
channel that that money is going into
and you don't know what htlc it's going
into uh you're just saying I want to go
to this node and if you're if the person
you if the node you selected has any
Channel with that person they'll they'll
just pick whichever one they want to use
you you as the sender don't get to see
that information so you have less
information from a lightning invoice
about where the money actually went than
you get from a Monero uh public address
right but there's more to it because for
example if you want to send large
amounts you don't get too much
deniability in lightning because there
is not much liquidity last time I
checked it was 5,000 Bitcoin or
something which is the total amount of
coins that are locked into this layer if
you're a whale or something you're
probably better off using
Monaro uh I think I'm not sure that
that's I'm not sure I've not checked um
how many nodes have enough liquidity to
forward like let's say a two Bitcoin
payment um for
$200,000 um but let what what I'm
thinking is if you did send um two
$200,000 through the lightning Network
um I think that it would probably go
through and the routing nodes along the
path would still have onion encryption
that prevents them from knowing who the
sender was and they also have onion
encryption preventing them from knowing
who the recipient is um so yeah is is it
really bad for for to send a large
amount over the lightning Network you
might have to try several times to do it
uh but once you find a once you find a
route then the routing nodes along that
path still don't know who the sender is
or who the recipient is
what about the amount because when
you're opening the channel and let's
assume it it's a two Bitcoin channel
that you're opening with someone that's
pretty visible it's it can be observed
you can see it on 1 ml.com or something
one of these lightning Network explorers
I think also on mol. space I'm not sure
if they have that feature so it's clear
that the liquidity went on the lightning
network but is it possible with
lightning transactions for an outside
Observer to know that to
Bitcoins are being
transferred no it's not possible for an
out only the people on the route would
would know any information about the
amount because amounts aren't gossiped
on the lightning Network they're only
exchanged between the the nodes that are
on along the Route and even there this
is one one reason why I said the the
part that the lightning Network get it
gets it worst on is is amount privacy um
but even there I think it does really
good because for one thing uh it's not
broadcast like in in the lightning in
lightning Network transactions your
transactions are not part of the gossip
Network you're just the only people who
know about your transaction are uh the
people on the route and secondly uh we
have uh what's it called um multipath
payments and if you do a multipath
payment which is built into a lot of
most wallets now uh it splits up the
amount into smaller chunks and then
sends them along different paths to the
recipient and we do this on the liting
network in fact wallets have an
incentive to do this because smaller
amounts tend to go through um more
easily so you get fewer payment failures
if you split up the amount and send it
over multiple cths um but that also
means that any routing node who sees a
payment doesn't know if the amount there
is the full amount being paid or just a
Shard of the amount uh so like in
addition to not broadcasting the amounts
um we also make it so that the routing
notes don't know uh the full amount they
only get a lower bound they know he sent
you know if $50 fls through their
routing node the routing node knows at
least $50 was sent but it might be you
know five sets of 50 that he you know he
split up a $250 payment into five sets
of 50 and you just don't know as a
routing node if he did
that right you have this concept in the
lightning network of private channels
are they really good for privacy or
what's the purpose of
them uh I no I don't think they're
really good for privacy you can find
there's there ways to find someone's
private Channel or at least if they're
not using Tapo there's ways to find
their private Channel um if they're
using Tapo then it gets harder uh the uh
and by the way L &d recently added tap
rot channels I think they did it last
year and a lot of the mobile wallets
support it now which is great
um but what's the purpose you asked and
the purpose is uh to dis to make a
distinction between nodes who are
routing and nodes who are not if you're
if you're a routing node uh you
advertise your um uh you can anyway
advertise your channels and say you
should connect to me look at all these
different destinations I'm connected to
here are my fee rates and you're kind of
advertising and so that you they publish
that information if you're a user and
you're on a smartphone um maybe you
don't want to Route probably you don't
aren't able to because like your phone's
in your pocket most of the time and not
sending messages um so you you make you
don't need to have your channels
announced you you don't need to
advertise yourself as as offering a
service um because you're not so then
they make these channels that aren't
announced on the gossip Network um but
that doesn't make them private so in
early lightning they called them private
channels and uh what's his name Tony
Georgio uh pounded into everyone's head
you can still see them on the blockchain
they're not private um so and he's right
they're just not announced on the gossip
network but they're still on the
blockchain so you can see them right so
what is their purpose more exactly
because they are called
private some people call them private
but let let me Echo Tony Georgia here
and say they I remember when I was using
run the lightning which is this wallet
and I was using it to manage channels on
my L&D node it had this feature when I
was opening a channel to take a box that
said open a private
Channel well it's it's a it's misnomer
and that someone should do a pull
request and change it to an unannounced
channel the the purpose is to say uh is
to not say here is my channel you can
route through me like you're not
advertising that service so you so you
don't make that announcement on the
gossip network but that's the only
difference is they're not announced on
the gossip Network they're still visible
on the blockchain and you can still find
them on the lightning Network which
scenario is more private let's say that
I open a Channel with you and I only
send to you or is it more private if I
open Channels with more people and I
have more
routes it there's there's less trust
well I don't know that's the thing if if
you just open a channel to me and then
do all of your transactions directly
with me I still don't know if you're um
I still don't know who the sender is
because it might be you or you might be
routing a payment um from from someone
who I can't see from from yeah just some
other user and I don't know if you're
doing that or not uh I could make an
assumption and say well he doesn't have
public channels so he's probably not a
router and therefore he probably is a
sender but not all routing notes do have
public channels you can still route with
private Chann with now I'm doing it with
unannounced channels um so yeah I don't
I wouldn't I don't know which one's more
private uh and I guess that's part of
the point is um because the lightning
Network discloses so little information
to the recipient and to routing noes uh
it's difficult to determine whether it's
more private to use zero routing nodes
or to use many either way the recipient
can't tell right so on the Monero side
how would you describe that this works
when let's say Alice sends coins to Bob
what's happening there Ono
yeah yeah uh when when Alice constructs
a transaction to send to Bob she looks
through the the blockchain and she I
don't I want to say randomly but it's
not quite a random algorithm she uses an
algorithm to pick uh a set of decoys uh
these are similar to how we do coin
joins in Bitcoin except it's non-
interactive in Monero which is Awesome
by the way I really like the Monero Tech
on non-interactive uh decoys but you
pick a bunch of people from the
blockchain and you say uh it's typically
16 or it's 15 plus the real plus you um
you pick 15 people and and then you say
one of these people is sending the money
in this transaction I'm listing them all
in my transaction as possible senders
and you create something called a ring
signature a ring signature takes a list
of public keys and creates a signature
such that you know one of the people one
of the pub keys in that list signed it
but you don't know which one uh and
that's what Monero uses to sign their
transactions so you can see uh either
Alice Bob Carol or Dave or you know
however of 16 people one of them sent
the money um but we don't need one uh so
that's the what how manaro protect
cender privacy it does best on amount
privacy where it actually encrypts the
information um so what I was just
describing is not encryption but OB
obscur obscurity which is good like
obscurity is good but in my opin opinion
encryption is better um so it doesn't
encrypt the sender but it does encrypt
the amount and it uses a really cool
encryption standard that it has a
property called perfect blinding which
means even like even if they cracked the
encryption algorithm they still wouldn't
know the amount in the uh in the in the
encoded in a in a Monero transaction
which is great with one exception um the
fee the fee is public in Monero
transactions the fee paid and you might
think well that doesn't matter but it's
used to finger print wallets and to
identify exchanges and other uh in like
uh if you watch this the chain analysis
released a video they didn't releas it
leaked a video last year um in which
they disclose how they trace anarrow
transactions and they spend a
considerable portion of it talking about
how they use the fee to identify whether
someone is in exchange because they tend
to use larger fees or a regular user
because they tend to use the default fee
um or they like have agreements with
certain exchanges that they have like
share information and they use that
information as well um but the fee tells
them a lot about what kind of user is
using Monero uh and so it's not in my
opinion it's not good that Monero uh
publishes the fee they should in my
opinion or I I like systems that encrypt
the entire amount and not leave a little
bit of it unencrypted um Lightning by
the way encrypts the full amount
including the fees uh so your the
routing notes do not know the fee you
paid they only know the fee you paid
them but they don't know the fee you
paid for the full transaction uh and
then lastly is the recipient and in a
Monero transaction when you create a
when you create a mano transaction you
you use a stealth address uh which is
what I was describing earlier you get
someone's public key and you don't send
money to that public key you derive
another public key from it and you send
money to that and uh then you with your
transaction you include information that
the recipient can use to um to figure
out what how how to spend from that
public key uh from the public key you
actually sent the money to they also
make make have a rule in Monero I I
don't think it's a consensus rule but
it's um it's a wallet like everyone does
this where if two transactions get sent
to the same address um the same like
they call them onetime addresses the
ones you derive from the public address
if two transactions get sent to that the
wallet will ignore the second one and
it'll only acknowledge the first
transaction which is great because uh
that means no one ever sends like no one
ever reuses addresses on Monero because
their wallet wouldn't even show they
received it which is which I I I really
like that and I I want I like to do
stuff like that too so thank you arrow
for making good privacy
Tech that's interesting I want to also
explore this side of network level
privacy because in the case of lightning
you have nodes which are associated with IP
IP
addresses and in the case of Monero you
have dandelion Plus+ which was actually
a proposal for Bitcoin to dissociate
transactions from IP addresses and nodes
and you can also put Tour on top in the
case of lightning you can optionally use
tour for your node but that only slows
down your transactions makes you less
likely to
route and it only makes it useful for
yourself in some cases but can also lead
payments uh there are some downsides to
using tour uh and I I am glad to see if
you if you go to uh Clark Moody's
Bitcoin dashboard something like 70% of
routing nodes on the lightning Network
use tour anyway um which I think is
wonderful uh some might say well no
wonder payments fail 70% of the routing
nodes are using tour um but that's the
situation I think I think that's largely
because of umbrell I think people set up
they download they get they buy an
umbrell or a start n machine or one of
these nodes in a box and they default to
uh most of them default to running your
running your node on tour um actually
one interesting thing when you're
setting up L&D it does not default to um
to setting to to doing it on mainnet or
on clear net I mean uh to to using ipv4
or IPv6 uh in fact you have to uh you
have to choose like there's no default
set uh when you try to set up a routing
node uh you get you have you have to say
in your configuration file whether you
want it to be on tour or on Clearnet and
and specify that I I really like that it
seems that most routing notes choose to
do it over tour um yeah dandelion Plus+
is a great technology in Monero and uh I
I don't know why Bitcoin wallets haven't
adopted it because we totally can it's
not even a it's not even a consensus
rule change your wallet can just start
doing it and and then you then you have
it and we don't even have to worry about
like writing the code because it's
already out there Monero wallets have it
so just copy paste uh and that that
would be great I don't know why we're
not I don't know why no wallet's doing
that um uh I forget what your question
did I answer your question I don't think I
I
did in the case of the lightning Network
level privacy yeah is there any way to
associate trans actions with a certain IP
IP
address uh no so or at least not unless
you're a routing node and you happen to
know who the sender is um so yeah in the
lighting Network we don't we don't um
you don't gossip your IP address or your
tour address unless you're a routing
node so I mentioned earlier that when
you're setting up a routing node you
have to set it to be on mainnet or
Clearnet when you do that you start
advertising you start saying here are my
channels you should rout through me I'm
I connected to all these people if you
just set up a Noe you set up like
electrum or you set up L&D or Phoenix or
something it's not going to tell people
your IP address it doesn't put it
doesn't use gossip um because it's not
it's not needed you're not routing any
information any transactions you're not
advertising that service um so you don't
actually so people like to say you know
a lightning invoice docks as your IP
address it doesn't un unless you're a
routing node if you're a routing node
then it docks as your IP address um but
if you're not if you're just a user then
it doesn't and so that's pretty cool uh
another aspect of network level privacy
to see is that uh on the lightning
Network when you're sending a
transaction every interaction between
you and the routes along the along the
path is encrypted so we use on
encryption so I I encrypt a layer for uh
well I guess I start with the last guy
encrypt I encrypt a layer for him and
then uh I wrap that in a layer for the
next hop back and I wrap that in a layer
for the next hop back and so there's all
these layers of encryption that make
every single interaction encrypted on
the lightning network uh and other
networks don't do this so on bitcoin
when I interact with my peers it's not
encrypted the traffic is uh in plain
text and on anarrow as well when you
interact with your peers when you send
transactions you send them in plain text
um so there is no peer-to-peer traffic
encryption on Monero and there is enl
lightening and I just thought I'd like
to mention that
that
yeah I guess in the case of Monero it's
much more difficult so there is no
condition that your node is a routing
one or not
you have much better Network level
privacy by default thanks to dandelion
you don't even have to use T but if you
add t on top it's GNA be much more
private uh I think it's a really good
idea to use tour um in the TR analysis
video that I mentioned earlier can we
can we put the link to the G analysis
video in the show notes I'll send it to
you yeah I think it was taken down a
bunch of times so it's hard to keep
track of where that is if you have it
that's pretty cool I have I have a link
that has been working for the last two
weeks or so um in that video they go
over how they do traffic analysis after
um the dandelion upgrade was implemented
and they said all of our assumptions
about traffic analysis get much weaker
after 20 if the if trans for
transactions that were broadcasted after
2020 however there's one thing that is
different here or there's one thing to
note which is that uh wallets like cake
wallet and man Monero J don't do what a
lot of Bitcoin wallets do which is
pretend to be a node and then uh connect
use the peer-to-peer connection to
broadcast your transactions most of them
use something called remote procedure
call which means they they ask some
website RPC yeah RPC calls and they they
ask some website and say um you you do
transactions from an arrow right here's
here's the raw hex of my transaction
please broadcast this to the network and
when you do that you're not uh getting
the protections of Dandy lion because
that's only applies at the peer-to-peer
level and not at the remote procedure
call level so in the analysis video
about a third of the transactions that
they click on were sent by uh people who
just were using a wallet that went to
one of the uh one of the servers owned
by chainalysis or partnered with
chainalysis and broadcasted it there um
so yeah the dandelion great but in order
to do that you have to run your own node
because wallets don't do it they they
could they could each wallet could
pretend to be a peer and then send the
transactions over the peer-to-peer level
and then they would get the dandelion
protection but they're not doing that um
I don't know why um uh but yeah if so if
you want the Dand line of stuff you have
to run your own node or wait till a
developer implements a wallet that does
it on mobile um and you also I think you
should use tour because although
dandelion tries to protect your IP
address if a lot of the nodes are
listening for these things uh they could
they could with some probability they
could get get they could figure out I
don't know I I don't want to say that I
wanted to say with some probability they
could figure it out but I'm not sure
that true so I don't want to finish
there I will just say I think it's
better if you use tour although on the
on the GitHub for an arrow uh if you
enable the tour option the GitHub says
it's not used for relaying transactions
it's only used for a couple of things um
and and one not or it doesn't use them
for relaying transactions which is
interesting I don't know why they don't
do that you you'd have to like use a
separate tour implementation than the
one that's integrated into Monero if you
wanted to actually relay transactions
encrypted uh because for some reason it
doesn't do that and I haven't read the
rationale last year we have seen a lot
of these ecash mens and federations that
use eash which gives you much better
privacy at the expense of control over
your own keys or
custody and you're you're going to have
to trust some custodian that he's going
to be honest and you're going to be able
to trade within not trade you know send
and receive inside of that Federation
with pretty good privacy
would you say that it's a net benefit
for for privacy and how does that
privacy of ecash compared to that of Monero
Monero
um it depend whether it's it's sometimes
a benefit um so I I personally don't
like to put a significant amount of
money on custodial Solutions I don't
mind having a couple bucks on there um
but when I get to about $20 worth of
value and then I'm like I don't want to
have that money on a custodian I want to
withdraw it to my own self- custody
uh sometimes I call this candy bar money
I don't care if my candy bar money is
custody um so I I will I I will do that
for like nostr apps or something um but
yeah for me it's more important that I
take control of the custody of my coins
uh whenever it's a significant amount of
money um but you didn't ask about
whether IE whether I prefer a custody
you asked whether it what are the
Privacy advantages of doing this and the
Privacy advantage of using an e-cat Min
is similar to the Privacy advantage of
using something like tornado cach on
Monero or uh tornado catch on ethereum
where uh the the the pool that is that
has aggregated all the user funds does
not disclose when a payment is made it
does not disclose who in the group made
the payment you only know it was it was
somebody in this pool uh similar with an
ecash mint if the ecash Mint sends out a
a payment to somewhere you don't know
and even the mint operator doesn't know
which member of the mint sent the money
um it's just uh you just know it's
somebody in that in that group sent the
money um so that's a privacy advantage
and depending on the size of the mint
and how many uses it has it might be
bigger than the an anonymity set that
you currently get with Monero because
monero's current ring signature size is
16 you have 16 people who are in your uh
transaction with you your transaction
plus 15 decoys right yeah well your yeah
your UT your txo plus 16 decoys 15
decoys um but with a mint it depends on
how many people there are and uh yeah I
don't I don't know how many users mints have
have
um so yeah I don't know with what what
the benefit you get there is it's it's
hard to say I suspect that the bigger
men so the ones with a lot of liquidity
on them um probably have more than 15
users and so then you'd be getting a
bigger an enity set but I don't know
because because they don't disclose at
least I don't think they disclose how
many people are using them I don't think
I don't even know if they know how many
people are using them yeah because each
each they could count the number of
deposits but each deposit could like
some of the deposits are going to be by
the same user so they so they wouldn't
even know how many users they
have I'm aware that you've had a debate
with looke Parker who's right now
working on full chain membership proofs
on Monero and that one is going to
increase the anonymity set to be
correspondent to basically the whole
chain it will not be only [Music]
[Music]
16 yeah transactions in that ring it
will be the whole change I told him I
told him that we should that he should
call it oops all decoys because uh
there's that there's that cereal the
Captain Crunch cereal where the where
it's oops all berries instead of having
the the golden corn pieces I was like
you should call it oops all decoys that
would be a much catchier name uh I don't
know uh I I think it sounds like a
wonderful uh piece of technology Luke
Parker who was smarter than me uh and
implemented it or I don't think he
implemented it I think he made like a
prototype or something uh he seems to be
really confident that it does what it
says and it makes it so that you can't
tell which member of the Monero um
Pub Key set um spent this spent this
money if that's true that's great like I
would love to reanalyze this debate and
see which which has better privacy after
uh full chain membership proofs get
implemented I haven't seen any criticism
of it I haven't heard intuitively it
sounds like a great thing um so I yeah I
just I look forward to seeing how it you
know once it's developed and tried it
out on testet and then on mainnet and
more eyes are on it I would love to see
uh love to learn more about bullain
membership proofs it sounds awesome once
it's tried on testnet is g to be tried
on super
testnet if maybe by then I'll have a
Monero clone uh that you could try it on
I do have my own Bitcoin testnet that
you can try Bitcoin apps on but I don't
have a Monero one it well I doubt I will
because I just find working on bitcoin more
more
interesting um in one thing I thought of
when I was uh at the gym today is that
the idea of full chain membership proofs
is to make it so that you can't disting
uish whether the sender is which of the
Monero users the sender is and I tried
to wonder is there another way to
accomplish that because we don't have
zero knowledge well this we don't have
the same zero knowledge proof technology
in Bitcoin that you guys have in Monero
or that the mono people have in Monero
but we do have some things and I tried
to think what would we do to to make it
so that you couldn't distinguish whether
the sender is um who the sender is and
the what what I thought of was what I
keep coming back to is the lighning
network uh and liting Network we encrypt
the sender and so any routing note on
the on the route he just sees an
encrypted blob so he doesn't know who
the sender is um and that encrypted blob
could have been made by anyone who has a
lightning wallet so do encrypted senders
count as full Chade membership proofs I
imagine Luke Parker swinging an ax right
now and saying definitely not it's
totally different but uh yeah Luke do a
post and tell us why why why is that why
is that different I'd love to learn
Yeah you mentioned zero knowledge proofs
I also want to ask you why you compare
lightning with Monero and not with zcash
because that one has much more advanced
cryptography it already has what mono is
trying to accomplish with full chain
users uh maybe my next post will be
comparing uh zcat to Monero but I I
don't know why I chose to go with Monero
uh in my post in my comparison post
rather than zcash uh but it might have a
lot to do with the fact uh like
subconscious I was like well it's more
useful to win over the Monero users
because there's more of them than there
are zcash users I don't know I I didn't
think about zcash when I made the post
yeah I guess you also wanted to dunk on
the fact that most of the transactions
on dark web markets are being made with
Monero and you wanted to prove that
lightning can also be used for that and
you can provide a couple of links to
attest that that there are some listings
on some dark web markets of non- illegal
stuff that's being sold for Bitcoin
using the lightning
Network why do you think there are not
more of these listings what do you think
is the
roadblock I suspect it is the barrier to
entry for the lightning Network in order
to set up a Monero node um well you
don't even need a Monero node in order
to set up a Monero wallet you just
download a wallet and you're off and
running and so I think that makes it
really a lot easier on um darket Market
developers whereas for lightning uh
there's an extra step you have to
download a wallet and you have to set up
channels um so I I suspect it's that
extra step and and then yeah uh then on
users users also have those two steps
every user not only has to uh it might
be fine for developer team to say okay
we downloaded a wallet and then we set
up a channel that that you know took us
an afternoon but if each of your users
has to spend an afternoon uh setting up
their wallet in order to pay you maybe
that maybe that's the reason I I wonder
if the reason why darket markets
um more of them use Monero or I I don't
even know if that's true I I I wonder if
more Market more darket markets would
use lightning if it was as easy to set
up for both users and developers as
Monero is so that's one of the things
that I work on is making it easier to
use the lightning Network now if you
look at XMR Bazar which is what I used
and it's not a dark net Market it's just
a market it has lots of listings and a
lot of them are from Europe and us you
find a lot of crap I I bought a Nintendo
64 using that I thought was it was super
cool that I could do that and I felt a
bit sorry that there's not a Bitcoin
equivalent that has lots of listings you
know because there was open Bazaar there
was Plein at one point which was
something where you sell your stuff it
was sort of like eBay but I'm not aware
of something that has a lot of listings
nowadays I will send you a link the one
that I found that uh I think they were
they were like chocolates with with
Monera I almost said Monero chocolates
with marijuana in them um that's the the
link I just sent you is the darket
market I found where people were doing
that and it looks to me like it has a
lot of listings so check that one out
and it allthough the those listings
support the lighting Network yeah let me
open the tour browser and check it
out in the meantime all this loads
because tour is slow I got to tell you
about Sid shift which is this place
where you can trade the various
shitcoins that you can get from Air
drops or whatever if someone sends you
something don't say no just take it from
them and swap it for the kind of free
market money that you actually want to
hold on sides shift they have a lot of
liquidity they have pretty low fees if
someone gives you for your birthday some
Trump tokens from the meme coin because
they take pride in owning that you don't
have to tell them what you really think
you can just accept that and swap it for
Bitcoin on sides shift you can actually
do that or if someone offers to pay you an
an
usdt it's a bull market man don't hold
on to stable coins I mean not Financial
advice but you're probably better off
buying Bitcoin with that so check out
Sid chi. a and and also I got to ask you
about layer 2 labs and drive chains
because people from their telegram chat
are watching right now and they want to
know what's your latest opinion of what
pole is doing with all of that what's it
called core untouched soft Fork yeah the
core untouched soft Fork uh I like it uh
so my my take uh is that Paul has
observed that one of the reasons why
miners haven't activated bit 300 yet uh
I suspect I think he suspects too is
because they don't want to use Paul's um
drive his his Fork of Bitcoin core
because then like it wouldn't get as it
probably wouldn't get as good and as
often of security updates as Bitcoin
core does and so I I think miners
basically are just like we just want to
use whatever whatever everyone else is
using and whatever one gets the gets
frequent security updates and and and
has a lot of developer focus and that's
just not Paul's software
uh it's it's him and his team working on
it and no one else at least as far as
I'm aware so I think he came up with
this idea of saying well what if we
could make it so that you could
Implement Drive chains without touching
Bitcoin core and I think that's a
brilliant idea so what he does is he
makes it so that um the if the minor
runs this um this non with this uh this
software to the side this core untouch
softwork software they will reject
transactions that violate the bip 300
rules uh and from the me poool and they
will uh invalidate blocks that don't
follow the bip 300 Rules by just calling
the invalidate block command and by uh
having a new mempool filtering policy
and by doing that you make it so that
you don't have to you don't have to
change Bitcoin core you can still as a
minor run Bitcoin core you can still get
the frequent security updates you can
still get all this good stuff that
Bitcoin core has but you can also
activate Drive chains on the side and I
think that's great um I hope I I hope
it's a success and um let's get Drive
chains happening that'd be great
yeah last year I think you came up or
maybe it wasn't you but I did see this
from you that you can basically do Drive
chains with covenants it's not ideal
you're removing some of the protections
that are provided to users but miners
can do
that miners the the nice thing about
softw works is or well a nice thing
about softw works is that every one
we've ever done um with with some
caveats around segwit was done by miners
like miners implemented not they didn't
implement the code miners chose to run
the code and reject the blocks that
didn't follow the new rules after you
know s 90% of them or so signaled that
they were ready to uh ready to do it and
I think they could do that with bip 300
they could just start signaling we're
gonna we're gonna start invalidating
blocks after you know block whatever uh
that don't follow the new bit 300 rules
and they could do that even if without
like without getting permission from
anyone I just think the uh what I talked
about earlier they just don't want to
run separate software and then not have
uh frequently frequent updates and good
developer teams on them um I forget I
meandered from your question oh could
you do them with a with
covenants probably you probably can do
them with COV I suspect you can actually
you can probably do Drive chains without
covenants um as long as minors are
willing to uh enforce enforce a variable
length time lock which I think you could
do variable length time locks using like
um uh by by using like a counter I think
you could use a counter and you
increment it by like revealing hashes
and stuff like we do in bit VM I think
there's probably a way to do Drive
chains um without a softwork at all but
it still requires miners to run special
software and so somebody has to write it
and then convince them to do it um and
you know Paul's Paul's taking on that
fight um yeah you you could probably do
them with covenants most things are
possible if you think about it for a
really long time and have smart people
work on it but um yeah Paul is one of
the smart people and he's working on it
so thank you Paul what do you think about
about
oifc do you think it's gonna happen if
we get that strategic Reserve from the
US I think it already happened uh I
don't I don't think Bitcoin will ever
see a soft Fork again uh or a hard fork
and I think I think it's I think it's aifi
aifi
um if you want my opinion on oif I think
it sucks um I oifc means uh you stop
fixing problems and that seems to be
what was happened in Bitcoin
so uh I don't like that and and I would
like to see more I would like to see
deification and and more fixes and
improvements in the in the consensus
rules yeah that's a very nice answer but
someone who is on the side of
oasification and possibly a spook is
going to say yeah you're just trying to
get paid because you have solutions for
problems that they don't consider
actually exist they'll say Bitcoin is
already perfect and you're just a Dev
who's trying to get a
paycheck well they're not wrong about
the ladder I am to get a paycheck so you caught
caught
me I don't think there's anything wrong
with trying to get a paycheck but I also
don't think uh there there's no such
thing as perfection in software um I
don't think it's attainable and uh so
anyone who says Bitcoin is perfect I
think they're wrong I think I think
it what do you think about these ZK
rollups this podcast is also sponsored
by craa and they are doing the
equivalent of optimism on ethereum with
their ZK rollup which you're going to
argue that is not a true ZK rollup
because it doesn't use bit
VM I think I've heard you argue that before
before
well you can have a true rollup that I
mean none of the ethereum rollups use
BDM either so you don't have to use BDM
to be a true rollup uh I don't remember
my thoughts on ca's blockchain thing uh
I remember having thoughts about it but
I don't remember what they are I do
remember thinking craa is a scam so I
could I could rail about that for a
little bit if you want if you want but
sure I also got leaman to talk about it
and he said you know it's actually
honest as long as it doesn't claim to be
what it's not and of course it's not
everything that you expect it to be yet
but maybe if we get a covenant it's
going to be much
better yeah I I don't I I have very
little recollection of I haven't thought
about them in probably six months and I
don't remember what my thoughts were so
uh I I just remember having a negative
opinion about them but I don't remember
why but you did concede at one point and
you said you know oron is not a scammer
or something I did I did
um yeah so we we had a I had a podcast
with the guy from Oran where I laid out
my reasons why I think they're a scam
and mostly it had to do with their
website saying that they did things that
they hadn't done um and saying they were
they were the first to do things that
they were not the first to
do uh and he very carefully showed me
that uh if you pared the if you pared
the sentences just right um they didn't
say those things and and I the reason
I'm being vague here is because I don't
remember remember the details anymore it
was It was kind of it was a long time
ago and I haven't thought about it since
um after that
event Robin Linus contacted me and he
gave me additional reasons to think they
they are a scam and I don't know if I
was fully persuaded or I don't I don't
have a good feeling about craa uh and I
don't I don't remember what his reasons
were and I also don't remember what my
reasons were I do remember thinking that
he answered my reasons
sufficiently but I still don't have a
good opinion of them H and and that's
that's about as much as I can remember
so I apologize for it I didn't know we
were going to talk about Satria
otherwise I would have gathered my
thoughts more no it's all good what
they're trying to do I think is pretty
interesting because they want to bring
these def applications to bitcoin they
want to be a layer where you can put
your Bitcoin as collateral to issue
stable coins and basically get a loan in
the style of Celsius or blockfi without
the company without the
middleman so what remember part of it
now um one of the things that they
claimed in their white paper or not
their white paper but on their website
and the when I declared them a scam one
of the things they claimed was we have
executed the first zero knowledge proof
rollup uh on bitcoin or we have like
launched the first zero knowledge proof
roll up on bitcoin and all they had done
at the time was made one transaction and this
this
transaction uh but it it didn't
contain it it contained like a proof
that one block existed of of another
blockchain and I said like this what
what they made it they made the they
made the blockchain using like ethereum
software evm software they created a
zero knowledge proof they validated the
zero knowledge proof off of Bitcoin and
then they just included on bitcoin like
the text of the of the you know it's
valid or something like that and I
remember saying at the time this is not
launching a zero knowledge proof rollup
on bitcoin your website says it is but
it's not and I believe orin's answer to
that was how many blocks do you need to
count as a blockchain and I had to
concede only one he was like well we did
one block and we showed that it worked
on bitcoin so that counts okay so
semantics at this point well but I don't
yeah I technically they I guess you
could say they did they did what they
what they technically said but it just
the way it's worded makes it sound like
you can use it and it's it's more like
they did something that you could do at
a hackathon or something like you you
could have made you could have validated
a zero knowledge proof off of Bitcoin on
a weekend and then published the proof
on bitcoin and and done that for a
hackathon project and then they've like
raised millions of dollars off this
stuff and I was just like this is not a
usable product this is just uh like look
that we look that we know how zero
knowledge proofs Works work and and so I
was not that that's part of I thought
they were raising money off of
essentially a lie but he said look if
you look very carefully we only claim to
do a blockchain and a blockchain only
requires one block and you know there
was this whole yeah I I just I don't
like I didn't I don't have good feelings
about craa but that that is as much
clarity as you're going to get on it
because I my memories on the subject are
very vague no it's fine I also remember
Robin Linus's objections he was unhappy
that they did not accomplish too much
and they raised a lot of money I think
this was his concern maybe he was a bit
jealous because I I think honestly I
think Robin did a pretty good job he
could have raised a lot of money but he
chose to do a PhD instead and push the
research further I respect that yeah I I
think it make be jealousy uh and that
might be what's motivating me too I
might have been sitting there and in my
subconscious little lizard mind it was
saying I could have made a zero
knowledge proof off of Bitcoin and then
posted it on bitcoin and raised a
million dollars but that's like
unethical and so I wouldn't do that but
but they did it and so then I got mad at
them but maybe it's also just jealousy
like I I should have gotten a ion dollar
or something like that it was more than
that yeah well still the principle is uh
I I don't we're still poor it's fine
yeah it's fine there are some comments
in the chat and I feel sorry for
ignoring this I did put on the screen
for a little while Shopify not Shopify
shopster and this one has some listings
and we're going to talk about that but
before that let's get to the comments in
the chat because I think some of them
are interesting and I don't want these
guys to go away I don't feel I I don't
want them to feel like they're getting
ignored so there is Max
Wonderland who said good evening
gentlemen with lightning Network one of
you can see them on YouTube if you want
and if you want to read along myself
with lightning Network one of the
problems is most people use custodial
lightning which defeats the whole
purpose and creates big players that
gets a lot of in oh that get a lot of
information about the funds in the
network moving around by the way the
stream is pretty laggy with little cut
offs from The Sound I don't know if
that's only me I don't know also
transactions through lightning can fail
also opening channels is very expensive
one of the reasons why most people seem
to use custodial yes ring ring
signatures are the weakest link at the
moment in XMR but that gets fixed soon
with full chain membership proofs I
think we went through this sorry but
what is he talking about wallets always
send a transaction to a node it's either
your own node or someone else like cake
so every transaction is secured by
dandelion this is his Claim about our
talk about Network level privacy and he
also says chain analysis runs own nodes
and proxies disguised as valid nodes
that's how they are able to link
transactions to IPS of real of the real
sender um yeah I agree with the last
sentence that that is one of the ways
they do it um but you you in after
dandelion came into effect you need like
you need to surround the node and know
that he like have some kind of a
confidence he doesn't have any other
connections to any other nodes it's like
a Cil attack in order to get around
dandelion but the other thing they do is
you said every every node either talks
every wallet either talks to its own
node or to someone else's node and
therefore they're all protected by
dandelion not if it's a chainalysis node
if it's if you connect directly to a
chainalysis node and not not through the
peer-to-peer network but through their
RPC call give them you the hex of the
raw hex of your transaction as a lot of
these wallets do you're not getting the
protections of dandelion because they
they know then you're not using the
peer-to-peer Network you're using uh
effectively a website or you know a web
server somewhere to talk to communicate
and so you're not getting the
protections of dandelion dandelion is
only run by nodes and it's not run by
these wallet programs um who don't
accept incoming they don't accept
inbound connections they they don't even
have a static IP address or or onion
address uh they're off most of the times
they don't they don't route uh they
don't relay transactions and if that's
the one connecting to the RPC call then
they have very high confidence that it's
um that it's that it's the actual sender
and not you know some dandelion um node
so yeah that's just uh I so I disagree
very I disagree with the sentence where
you said um it either connects to uh
your own node or someone else's node
well I don't disagree with that but it
misses the point which is that there's
two ways to connect to a node either the
peer-to-peer way where you where you
either are a peer or pretend to be a
peer or there's the RPC way and that way
is leaks a lot of information um so I
don't think wallets should do that and I
don't think they need to I think they
wallets can uh implement the part of the
peer-to-peer protocol necessary to look
like a to look like a dandelion um to
look like something that supports
dandelion and I just don't think they
have there's also another comment by
Inigo arula I
I hope I'm not mispronouncing and here
she says LSP plus kyc will remove older
privacy for most people on the lightning
Network LSB meaning lightning service
provider for those who don't
know yeah I don't think that's true
either there's two there's two groups of
people who use um LSPs there's users and
there's routing nodes and uh the LSP
can't distinguish whether you're a just
a regular end user or your routing node
so if you are um sending a transaction
and you're using an LSP uh they don't
know if you're the sender or if you're a
routing node and that is really good for
your privacy because they don't know who
the sender is um uh the other someone
mentioned earlier everybody's using
custodians on the lightning Network well
I don't think everyone is um I I don't
think everyone's using custodians on the
lighting network uh those who choose to
do so are uh compromising their privacy
because the sender of the transaction
knows who the sender is and who the
amount is uh and what the amount is uh
they don't know who the they don't know
what address is receiving the
transaction which is you know a good
thing that is in my opinion better than
what Monero offers um but they still
know who the sender is and who the who
the amount is so if you're using a
custodian um you're not getting good
privacy from that custodian and I
recommend uh not doing that anymore if
you're looking for good well I recom I
was about to say don't do that if you're
looking for good privacy what I should
say is you should look for good privacy
and therefore you should not use a
custodian um because then you're only
getting recipient um privacy the you're
of the three categories sender privacy
amount privacy and recipient privacy
you're only getting recipient privacy
then and uh it's better if you get you
know all three by running your own node
or by using one of these you know phone
wallets I have this phone wallet it's
Phoenix and right now it's connecting to
tour and then a lightning pier and an
electrum server and it's also uploading
payments to a cloud I'm not sure exactly
which Cloud if it's my account or
somebody else's or if it's encrypted but
is this really private I connect to tour
first then there is a lightning Pier
which I'm not sure if it's random or
it's a predetermined one and then
electrum server which likewise I'm not
sure if it's
randomized uh looking at that I would
say when you when you send a transaction
using the setup you have there you get
good receiver privacy because lightning
has better receiver privacy than Monero
does you have no amount privacy um
because even though you're constructing
the transaction that you're sending
across the lighting Network you the way
that Phoenix par in particular works you
send your lightning transaction to
Phoenix the entire thing you don't do
shards uh like like a node does you send
the entire thing to Phoenix and then you
say please find a route to um to the
recipient's node uh so you're not
getting any amount privacy there they
they know that you're not using shards
because they've designed the Wallace
that you don't use shards I'll take this
opportunity to say Phoenix you should
Implement multipath payments in like
constructed by the sender that would be
good because that would protect that
would protect more of the amount
information and then they don't know if
you're using tour consistently on
Phoenix then I don't think they know
your IP address which is good for your
sender privacy um I don't I imagine
however that even if you are using tour
there's probably um
fingerprinting that they can do on your
wallet um I don't I don't know enough
about how operating systems if they have
other ways of getting information to
this to the uh provider of an app other
than the buil of the network connection
used inside the app I I imagine there's
probably a back door that uh like
Android or iOS can use to send
information about you even if you're
using tour inside the app because the
rest of your phone's not using tour and
your phone still knows you're using
Phoenix so there's I I imagine there's a
backd door way for them to find out who
you are as the sender of that wallet
even when you're using tour and so you'd
only get receiver privacy if that's true
um if they've designed the wallet in
such a way that they don't have
information about you if you're using
tour then you'd also have good sender
privacy so yes on receiver privacy zero
amount privacy uh I don't know on Center
privacy on the banero side the
equivalent is the vew key right and this
is their big talk just like there's talk
about DX poob in the case of Bitcoin
key okay um I I don't do you want me to
talk about my thoughts on on vew keys
well what I want you to tell me is what
key and what types of wallets do that
I don't know which types of wallets do
that um a well-designed wallet would not
disclose your vew key to um to your
wallet provider or to to any anyone it
would keep it it would keep it only
visible to you if someone has your
viewkey they can view all incoming
transactions and view the
amounts and well and you and because
Monero doesn't encrypt a sender you'd
also get the list of 16 possible senders
but it wouldn't say which one um was was
the real one so you you just know the
amounts and You' know the recipient uh
and you still get good you still get
decent sender privacy on even if someone
has your view key on
Monero so basically having someone's
Bitcoin I think well I think there's an
I think there's a caveat there I believe
there is some information I forget what
it is I was looking at V Keys once and I
was really surprised to find out that
they don't tell you everything there's
there's some piece of information that
oh it's probably it's probably the
sender it's probably just that they
don't get the sender information so no
it doesn't turn it into Bitcoin because
in Bitcoin unless you're using the coin
join and you're using the Bas layer you
do get the sender every time um whereas
with uh well and also yeah there's the
copy ads but on Monero you don't so it
doesn't turn it so even if someone has
your vew key it's still better thanit
than Bitcoin Bas layer on for privacy I
appreciate the honesty the way that
you're breaking down these I really
appreciate the nuances there's also
Inigo in the chat who says I see
lightning as something that has
potential to be private theoretically
but with real world limitations I really
do not see how it can be
achieved I don't know what real world limitations
limitations
means well it's I think if I had to if I
wanted to say a similar sentence uh I
would say um there's no plug- Inplay
solution for privacy on the lightning
network if you want to set up a private
a lightning Network Noe and get decent
privacy out of it or if you want to use
lightning rather and get decent privacy
out of it you have to do things like
download a node um set it up configure
it to use tour uh open channels and
manage your liquidity and that's like
five things uh and that that then you'd
I I think you'd have decent privacy in
that case as long as you didn't make any
mistakes like accidentally forgetting to
use tour one time and then you just leak
everything um and I think
uh so what he said was because of real world limitations it's impossible to get
world limitations it's impossible to get um good privacy on Lightning I don't
um good privacy on Lightning I don't think it's impossible and I don't I
think it's impossible and I don't I don't think real those you know those
don't think real those you know those are the five things you have to watch
are the five things you have to watch for and I I don't think it's an
for and I I don't think it's an insurmountable task so you can do it can
insurmountable task so you can do it can you can have a really you can have a
you can have a really you can have a really good privacy on your lightning
really good privacy on your lightning node uh some Monero people that I argue
node uh some Monero people that I argue with online say it's different with
with online say it's different with Monero um you can get really good
Monero um you can get really good privacy on Monero by just you know
privacy on Monero by just you know downloading cake wallet or downloading
downloading cake wallet or downloading monu J uh I don't think it's true I
monu J uh I don't think it's true I don't think you get well you get decent
don't think you get well you get decent privacy um I don't think you get as good
privacy um I don't think you get as good of privacy as you get by setting it up
of privacy as you get by setting it up on the lightning Network in order to get
on the lightning Network in order to get decent privacy on rero I think you have
decent privacy on rero I think you have to run your own node because otherwise
to run your own node because otherwise you're making remote procedure calls and
you're making remote procedure calls and people can find out the IP address of
people can find out the IP address of the sender um and you have to um use
the sender um and you have to um use tour I think I think you have to use
tour I think I think you have to use tour in order to use them an hour
tour in order to use them an hour privately because although dandelion
privately because although dandelion helps it doesn't protect you if you're
helps it doesn't protect you if you're if all the nodes you're connected to are
if all the nodes you're connected to are cils or even if most of them are sibles
cils or even if most of them are sibles um and we we know from the videos
um and we we know from the videos released by Chain analysis and Cipher
released by Chain analysis and Cipher Trace that they are both running that
Trace that they are both running that chainalysis companies are running nodes
chainalysis companies are running nodes and Gathering IP addresses from users
and Gathering IP addresses from users they they show it in their video uh so
they they show it in their video uh so in order to prevent that in order to
in order to prevent that in order to prevent them from getting your IP
prevent them from getting your IP address it's important that you use your
address it's important that you use your own nodes you're not using RPC calls and
own nodes you're not using RPC calls and you run to you use it over tour so that
you run to you use it over tour so that even if they even if you do even if they
even if they even if you do even if they are sibling you they don't get your real
are sibling you they don't get your real IP address they only get your tour
IP address they only get your tour address um so that's two things like on
address um so that's two things like on Monero in order to have decent privacy
Monero in order to have decent privacy you have to run your own note and you
you have to run your own note and you have to use tour and as long as you're
have to use tour and as long as you're going through the trouble of doing that
going through the trouble of doing that setup why not do the lightning setup and
setup why not do the lightning setup and get better privacy like if you if you
get better privacy like if you if you need serious privacy lightning offers it
need serious privacy lightning offers it in a better way than Monero does oh and
in a better way than Monero does oh and like with lightning you also have to
like with lightning you also have to make sure you never make a mistake like
make sure you never make a mistake like if you accidentally forget to do it on
if you accidentally forget to do it on tour sometime that might be the time
tour sometime that might be the time that they get you so yeah it's just you
that they get you so yeah it's just you have to be constant and Vigilant about
have to be constant and Vigilant about your privacy stuff and there's just I
your privacy stuff and there's just I don't think there's a plug Inplay
don't think there's a plug Inplay solution for that um wait who is
solution for that um wait who is they did you you say that's where they
they did you you say that's where they get
get you oh the chain analysis that's where
you oh the chain analysis that's where chain analysis gets you okay so that's
chain analysis gets you okay so that's the
the day yeah the day is chain analysis and
day yeah the day is chain analysis and and Cipher trace and other analytics
and Cipher trace and other analytics companies I'm G to put this article on
companies I'm G to put this article on the screen it's the lowest hanging fruit
the screen it's the lowest hanging fruit right it's this article published in
right it's this article published in 2021 that's titled chainalysis launches
2021 that's titled chainalysis launches support for lightning Network as layer 2
support for lightning Network as layer 2 payment protocols gain popularity and my
payment protocols gain popularity and my question for you is what can they know
question for you is what can they know and what can they see what does this
and what can they see what does this support really
support really mean uh yeah if you read the article
mean uh yeah if you read the article they tell you what they can what they
they tell you what they can what they what they're doing in there and they're
what they're doing in there and they're offering something called
um man can you can you send me the link in here so I can look it up they they
in here so I can look it up they they they say exactly what they know about
they say exactly what they know about this can I send it to you on telegram
this can I send it to you on telegram yes you have it for desktop because I
yes you have it for desktop because I don't want to mess up up what's on the
don't want to mess up up what's on the screen so super I I did that a couple of
screen so super I I did that a couple of times during this stream I
times during this stream I apologize
apologize s thank you I see the
s thank you I see the link
um for people watching I put this on the screen and we can basically read
together what is the lightning Network section there is the how popular is it
section there is the how popular is it section
uh okay so what they offer is a transaction monitoring solution for the
transaction monitoring solution for the lightning network uh specifically
lightning network uh specifically chainalysis
chainalysis kyt uh they will be able to use um kyt
kyt uh they will be able to use um kyt to monitor their lightning their
to monitor their lightning their lightning Network transactions screen
lightning Network transactions screen for risky activity and gain valuable
for risky activity and gain valuable insights so if you if you look up this
insights so if you if you look up this term um chainalysis kyt they Define what
term um chainalysis kyt they Define what that is on other parts of their website
that is on other parts of their website and it's specifically ofac compliance so
and it's specifically ofac compliance so whenever a exchange is sending money to
whenever a exchange is sending money to a user um that you're withdrawing your
a user um that you're withdrawing your money from an exchange they have to take
money from an exchange they have to take the address you give and check whether
the address you give and check whether that address is on the ofac sanctioned
that address is on the ofac sanctioned list and they called this product
list and they called this product whereby you can send them the address
whereby you can send them the address and they will check if it's on the ofac
and they will check if it's on the ofac list for you uh they call that chain
list for you uh they call that chain alysis
alysis kyt um so what they do what they can do
kyt um so what they do what they can do with the lightning network is take the
with the lightning network is take the take the invoice that the that the
take the invoice that the that the person wants to withdraw with and get
person wants to withdraw with and get the pub key from it and check if that
the pub key from it and check if that Pub key is on the ofac ofac list uh also
Pub key is on the ofac ofac list uh also important to note um these public keys
important to note um these public keys are don't receive money they're only on
are don't receive money they're only on um they they're only used for
um they they're only used for communication uh so it's even a silly
communication uh so it's even a silly thing that they do this but uh but yeah
thing that they do this but uh but yeah that's what they can do it's not tracing
that's what they can do it's not tracing the transaction they're just checking if
the transaction they're just checking if the pub key listed in the in the um in
the pub key listed in the in the um in the node in in the lightning invoice
the node in in the lightning invoice that you give them is on the ofac list
that you give them is on the ofac list or not uh it's a past fail
or not uh it's a past fail um so that's and that's what they say
um so that's and that's what they say that's why they need to say uh that the
that's why they need to say uh that the uh exchange is able to monitor their
uh exchange is able to monitor their transactions not the users's
transactions not the users's transactions they don't know where the
transactions they don't know where the where the funds are coming from on the
where the funds are coming from on the lightning Network they don't they aren't
lightning Network they don't they aren't able to trace lightning payments and
able to trace lightning payments and don't claim to be able to they can only
don't claim to be able to they can only give a pass fail when the exchange is
give a pass fail when the exchange is sending out a transaction to a lightning
sending out a transaction to a lightning invoice and say is the pub key listed in
invoice and say is the pub key listed in this uh in this invoice on the ofac list
this uh in this invoice on the ofac list so that's what they're
so that's what they're doing yeah I think it was useful to ask
doing yeah I think it was useful to ask because I guess someone from the chat is
because I guess someone from the chat is going to ask this anyway and put the
going to ask this anyway and put the link and say gotcha you know to analysis
link and say gotcha you know to analysis is on this so they must know much more
is on this so they must know much more than you're saying I have a gotcha uh
than you're saying I have a gotcha uh which is if you go if you go the reverse
which is if you go if you go the reverse Direction and say what does chainalysis
Direction and say what does chainalysis know about Monero in the video that I
know about Monero in the video that I mentioned earlier and that we're going
mentioned earlier and that we're going to put in the show notes actually I will
to put in the show notes actually I will send you the link right now so that I
send you the link right now so that I don't forget uh in this video they
don't forget uh in this video they specifically say at the end uh um you
specifically say at the end uh um you should not use our tool on your own you
should not use our tool on your own you should hire us you should hire us to run
should hire us you should hire us to run the tool for you we will do the the
the tool for you we will do the the Monero tracing for you and we will find
Monero tracing for you and we will find out where the TR where the funds uh were
out where the TR where the funds uh were came from and where they were sent so
came from and where they were sent so here's the here's the link to the video
here's the here's the link to the video it's in the last 30 seconds that he does
it's in the last 30 seconds that he does this in case you want to play it um but
this in case you want to play it um but Monero or chainalysis actively
Monero or chainalysis actively advertises that they have a Monero
advertises that they have a Monero tracing tool that can identify the
tracing tool that can identify the source of funds and where they flow on
source of funds and where they flow on the network they don't offer that for
the network they don't offer that for the lightning Network they just say we
the lightning Network they just say we only offer chainalysis kyt and that's
only offer chainalysis kyt and that's know your transaction not know your
know your transaction not know your customer's
customer's transaction is this to is there PB key
transaction is this to is there PB key on the ofac list or
on the ofac list or not that's not tracing the
transaction yeah I guess I'm going to put this in the description everyone can
put this in the description everyone can watch this and everyone should watch
watch this and everyone should watch this because you get to understand how
this because you get to understand how they operate I guess the reason why they
they operate I guess the reason why they wanted this to get removed and they did
wanted this to get removed and they did not want this to be publicly available
not want this to be publicly available and someone leaked it is that it reveals
and someone leaked it is that it reveals the way that they approach it and the
the way that they approach it and the way that they think about it it's sort
way that they think about it it's sort of a paper tiger in some regards like I
of a paper tiger in some regards like I think it was overblown when it came out
think it was overblown when it came out people said ha you know they know how to
people said ha you know they know how to De anonymize manur transactions but
De anonymize manur transactions but there's also there's always this caveat
there's also there's always this caveat of the user input error when there's
of the user input error when there's sending a transaction and they're using
sending a transaction and they're using the wrong tool or they're making some
the wrong tool or they're making some mistakes yeah the the you so what I find
mistakes yeah the the you so what I find really interesting in the in the from
really interesting in the in the from about like 30 minutes onward he shows
about like 30 minutes onward he shows their block Explorer he shows the block
their block Explorer he shows the block explorer that they use it's like a
explorer that they use it's like a custom Monero block Explorer they've
custom Monero block Explorer they've made with information gathered from like
made with information gathered from like fixed float and morph token and change
fixed float and morph token and change now and other exchanges that cooperate
now and other exchanges that cooperate with chainalysis they give them
with chainalysis they give them information about their transactions and
information about their transactions and then they can filter those out when
then they can filter those out when they're used as decoys they can say ah
they're used as decoys they can say ah they Ed they use a transaction that we
they Ed they use a transaction that we know came from um from
know came from um from uh change now as a decoy and so we can
uh change now as a decoy and so we can ask change now did you make this
ask change now did you make this transaction and if they say no then we
transaction and if they say no then we know that's a decoy and they can
know that's a decoy and they can eliminate it uh so they have all this
eliminate it uh so they have all this information that's like offchain data
information that's like offchain data that they use to eliminate decoys from
that they use to eliminate decoys from the Monero transactions but using that
the Monero transactions but using that data uh it's incredible how much
data uh it's incredible how much information they get they they go they
information they get they they go they go clicking around and they're like okay
go clicking around and they're like okay so the guy starts at this transaction
so the guy starts at this transaction started at I think it was morph token uh
started at I think it was morph token uh the morph token sent it to his Monero
the morph token sent it to his Monero address we can identify the change that
address we can identify the change that went back to morph token because they
went back to morph token because they told us this is our address we're
told us this is our address we're canident identify the real recipient
canident identify the real recipient right here then we watched for him to
right here then we watched for him to show up in the next transaction so he
show up in the next transaction so he clicks he clicks the address and it
clicks he clicks the address and it shows up in a the list of the uh all the
shows up in a the list of the uh all the transactions that it's been seen in on
transactions that it's been seen in on on the on Monero and he's like okay so
on the on Monero and he's like okay so we can see from here it showed up as a
we can see from here it showed up as a decoy and all these things but they were
decoy and all these things but they were able to identify that it was a decoy
able to identify that it was a decoy using their offc information and he's
using their offc information and he's like okay so here's the real transaction
like okay so here's the real transaction where he actually sent it and he sent it
where he actually sent it and he sent it into some he goes through a list like he
into some he goes through a list like he sent it to this uh place or he sent some
sent it to this uh place or he sent some of it to this place and then this is the
of it to this place and then this is the change he keeps picking to the change
change he keeps picking to the change eventually the person sent it to a
eventually the person sent it to a wallet I I assume a phone wallet and the
wallet I I assume a phone wallet and the reason I assume that is because the last
reason I assume that is because the last transaction that he shows in this video
transaction that he shows in this video is uh one that used a remote procedure
is uh one that used a remote procedure call it used a remote procedure call and
call it used a remote procedure call and the guy wasn't using a
the guy wasn't using a VPN uh to contact a chainalysis node and
VPN uh to contact a chainalysis node and he and he sent it to I think it was a
he and he sent it to I think it was a merchant he sent it he sent money to um
merchant he sent it he sent money to um some Merchant probably like but refill
some Merchant probably like but refill or I don't know if they take Monero some
or I don't know if they take Monero some Merchant that does Monero things and he
Merchant that does Monero things and he said okay so he sent the money to this
said okay so he sent the money to this Merchant to this Merchant and we were
Merchant to this Merchant and we were able to trace the transaction from morph
able to trace the transaction from morph token all the way to here but when he
token all the way to here but when he made this transaction he used uh he used
made this transaction he used uh he used like a he used the remote procedure call
like a he used the remote procedure call and he didn't use a VPN so we knew his
and he didn't use a VPN so we knew his IP address and we could trace that all
IP address and we could trace that all the way back to where he got the money
the way back to where he got the money from um so where he bought the Monero so
from um so where he bought the Monero so it's really impressive like they
it's really impressive like they actually do a full trace of a
actually do a full trace of a transaction showing all the steps they
transaction showing all the steps they do and how they eliminate the decoys um
do and how they eliminate the decoys um yeah like people will say it's overblown
yeah like people will say it's overblown they can't really trace an arrow but if
they can't really trace an arrow but if you watch the video they trace man Arrow
you watch the video they trace man Arrow that's what they do and then he
that's what they do and then he advertises like so if you want to do
advertises like so if you want to do this don't just buy the don't just buy
this don't just buy the don't just buy our block Explorer um hire us because we
our block Explorer um hire us because we know how we're the experts we have all
know how we're the experts we have all the offchain data and we know how to
the offchain data and we know how to actually do it so yeah you could they
actually do it so yeah you could they can they can and do and advertise if
can they can and do and advertise if they trace them an arrow but they don't
they trace them an arrow but they don't do it for lightning they don't they
do it for lightning they don't they don't even advertise that they can trace
don't even advertise that they can trace lightning yeah that's interesting
lightning yeah that's interesting interesting but to me it sounds a bit
interesting but to me it sounds a bit like the claims that they were making
like the claims that they were making with Wasabi or Samurai coin joints right
with Wasabi or Samurai coin joints right when it was mostly an address reused
when it was mostly an address reused that was the fault of user or sending to
that was the fault of user or sending to you know buying coins from exchanges
you know buying coins from exchanges coin joining and then sending to another
coin joining and then sending to another exchange and then saying you know we can
exchange and then saying you know we can actually de anonymize this but they
actually de anonymize this but they don't look at the part
don't look at the part that actually adds privacy they just
that actually adds privacy they just look at the outputs and see where they
look at the outputs and see where they go
go they the nice thing is if if the guy was
they the nice thing is if if the guy was using the lightning network instead of
using the lightning network instead of the nrow they wouldn't have a blockchain
the nrow they wouldn't have a blockchain to look at to start with because
to look at to start with because transactions are not published on the
transactions are not published on the lightning Network um so in order to get
lightning Network um so in order to get a transaction graph they would have to
a transaction graph they would have to subpoena every lightning node that might
subpoena every lightning node that might have been in in the route of the guy who
have been in in the route of the guy who they're you know trying to find out
they're you know trying to find out about and say you have you have to give
about and say you have you have to give us every information about every IP
us every information about every IP address that that connected to you the
address that that connected to you the using por or a VPN then just like with
using por or a VPN then just like with Monero didn't get any information from
Monero didn't get any information from about that but then the next thing is
about that but then the next thing is they don't see the sender so even if
they don't see the sender so even if they get all of the logs from the um
they get all of the logs from the um from the from routing nodes even if they
from the from routing nodes even if they were able to subpoena all of them and
were able to subpoena all of them and get all this information they still
get all this information they still wouldn't know the sender or the
wouldn't know the sender or the recipient because that's encrypted it's
recipient because that's encrypted it's not it doesn't show up in the routing
not it doesn't show up in the routing notes so good luck chain alysis good
notes so good luck chain alysis good luck trying to find him uh on Monero
luck trying to find him uh on Monero you've got a blockchain and you've got
you've got a blockchain and you've got offchain data that you can use to
offchain data that you can use to eliminate decoys uh you don't have that
eliminate decoys uh you don't have that on Lightning so do your best but yeah I
on Lightning so do your best but yeah I think it would have been safer if he was
think it would have been safer if he was using lightning than if he used an
using lightning than if he used an arrow yeah that's very useful
arrow yeah that's very useful information and I'm only saying this
information and I'm only saying this because I want to push myself to
because I want to push myself to actually do it so I'm I'm going to say
actually do it so I'm I'm going to say it in public I'm planning to do a
it in public I'm planning to do a conference about privacy here in verania
conference about privacy here in verania later this year maybe around Halloween
later this year maybe around Halloween and I would love to see you on stage I
and I would love to see you on stage I know that for you maybe six months means
know that for you maybe six months means a long time and you're going to move on
a long time and you're going to move on to something else and you're going to
to something else and you're going to have maybe different ideas that you come
have maybe different ideas that you come up with because it's very hard to keep
up with because it's very hard to keep up with what you're doing but I would
up with what you're doing but I would love to host you to have you on stage to
love to host you to have you on stage to talk about this stuff and reveal what
talk about this stuff and reveal what you can do with the lightning Network
you can do with the lightning Network what are the limitations of it what you
what are the limitations of it what you can do with Monero maybe you're going to
can do with Monero maybe you're going to have time to look into
have time to look into zash I'd love to I'm in let's let's make
zash I'd love to I'm in let's let's make it a thing so don't make plans for
it a thing so don't make plans for Halloween this
Halloween this year I think that's a good
year I think that's a good time I just need to find some sponsors
time I just need to find some sponsors or something but speaking of sponsor
or something but speaking of sponsor privacy in the dark conference I don't
privacy in the dark conference I don't know something like that some Halloween
know something like that some Halloween themed yeah that can be cool but I was
themed yeah that can be cool but I was also thinking I mean it's still in a
also thinking I mean it's still in a very nent phas I don't know what it's
very nent phas I don't know what it's going to turn out to be but I was also
going to turn out to be but I was also thinking of this approach where maybe
thinking of this approach where maybe you have privacy Advocates on one stage
you have privacy Advocates on one stage that's live streamed and then blockchain
that's live streamed and then blockchain analysis companies on the other stage on
analysis companies on the other stage on day one and they do their presentations
day one and they do their presentations where they say you know we have good
where they say you know we have good privacy but wait we can trace that and
privacy but wait we can trace that and then on the second day you actually have
then on the second day you actually have panels and you get them to debate and
panels and you get them to debate and you you get this confrontation where
you you get this confrontation where maybe some people like that maybe some
maybe some people like that maybe some don't I don't know I have to ask around
don't I don't know I have to ask around to see if there's any interest in this
to see if there's any interest in this but I haven't seen anything like this
but I haven't seen anything like this usually conferences are one-sided they
usually conferences are one-sided they are
are more bullish on something and they say
more bullish on something and they say you know our tool is great you should
you know our tool is great you should use this and that I don't know maybe I'm
use this and that I don't know maybe I'm just weird and I should stick to what
just weird and I should stick to what works as opposed to coming up with
works as opposed to coming up with whacky ideas two things um be careful
whacky ideas two things um be careful doing it around Halloween because that's
doing it around Halloween because that's also when there's a lot more
Spooks and the other thing second thing um when if uh full chain membership
um when if uh full chain membership proofs gets implemented from anarrow
proofs gets implemented from anarrow it's supposed to allow for something
it's supposed to allow for something called well an easier way to do
called well an easier way to do something called transaction chaining
something called transaction chaining and from the Monero people I've talked
and from the Monero people I've talked to uh it'll be a lot easier to build
to uh it'll be a lot easier to build payment a payment Channel network for
payment a payment Channel network for Monero
Monero um once once they have that so I'd
um once once they have that so I'd really like to see uh you know hopefully
really like to see uh you know hopefully we'll have you know that they say that
we'll have you know that they say that like this year we might it might be the
like this year we might it might be the year we get banero people get full chain
year we get banero people get full chain membership proofs I hope so and then
membership proofs I hope so and then somebody start working on making a
somebody start working on making a payment Channel network wouldn't it be
payment Channel network wouldn't it be cool to compare the Monero payment
cool to compare the Monero payment Channel network with the Bitcoin payment
Channel network with the Bitcoin payment Channel network and see which one has
Channel network and see which one has better
better privacy yeah that should be fun I guess
privacy yeah that should be fun I guess we could also get full chain membership
we could also get full chain membership proofs in
proofs in Bitcoin but I I don't think there's
Bitcoin but I I don't think there's going to be consensus for this because I
going to be consensus for this because I remember I was at Monero Topia last year
remember I was at Monero Topia last year in November in Mexico and they were
in November in Mexico and they were explaining the trade-offs saying that
explaining the trade-offs saying that it's going to be even less scalable with
it's going to be even less scalable with full chain membership proofs and
full chain membership proofs and transaction fees are going to go up so
transaction fees are going to go up so people should expect to pay more for
people should expect to pay more for their privacy but the consensus within
their privacy but the consensus within that Community is that privacy is most
that Community is that privacy is most important so they don't care about
important so they don't care about anything
else great um and could be get full chain membership proofs in Bitcoin um
chain membership proofs in Bitcoin um does encrypting the sender count in your
does encrypting the sender count in your in your
in your opinion well that would be very nice at
opinion well that would be very nice at least in relation to the miners because
least in relation to the miners because they should not be able to see what's in
they should not be able to see what's in the transaction you're going to
the transaction you're going to eliminate this situation where they can
eliminate this situation where they can censor or they can do whatever people
censor or they can do whatever people describe as
describe as me because if if you do I don't I don't
me because if if you do I don't I don't know that it's the exact same thing to
know that it's the exact same thing to say I encrypted the sender and therefore
say I encrypted the sender and therefore it's a full chain MERS shiper in fact I
it's a full chain MERS shiper in fact I think that's definitely not true but I
think that's definitely not true but I think they have the same effect which is
think they have the same effect which is uh if you have an encrypted blob anybody
uh if you have an encrypted blob anybody on the network could have created that
on the network could have created that blob so if that's just as good as um as
blob so if that's just as good as um as full chain membership proofs then
full chain membership proofs then remember on Lightning we do encrypt the
remember on Lightning we do encrypt the sender so do we already have full chain
sender so do we already have full chain membership proofs in Bitcoin I look
membership proofs in Bitcoin I look forward to uh hereby asking Luke Parker
forward to uh hereby asking Luke Parker to please write an article saying why
to please write an article saying why they're
they're different there's Arthur PG in the chat
different there's Arthur PG in the chat and he said said did I miss discussion
and he said said did I miss discussion of 140 billion usdt coming to lightning
of 140 billion usdt coming to lightning thanks for a fascinating guest is that
thanks for a fascinating guest is that coming to lightning I think it was
coming to lightning I think it was called Taro at one point or Tapo
called Taro at one point or Tapo assets I I'm not familiar did he say
assets I I'm not familiar did he say $140 billion dollars of specific number
$140 billion dollars of specific number it's not dollars it's usdt well yeah
it's not dollars it's usdt well yeah usdt lightning I'm going to Google that
usdt lightning I'm going to Google that see if I can find
see if I can find anything I see that one hour ago
anything I see that one hour ago coindesk proba article saying that it's
coindesk proba article saying that it's uh saying it's happening so that's news
uh saying it's happening so that's news to me uh well I I think stable coins are
to me uh well I I think stable coins are dumb um so I don't recommend uh
dumb um so I don't recommend uh recommend using them uh they they are
recommend using them uh they they are tied to a currency that inherently goes
tied to a currency that inherently goes down in value like it's designed to um
down in value like it's designed to um but uh yeah make do your own research
but uh yeah make do your own research and make your own
and make your own decisions yeah think about all of this
decisions yeah think about all of this cool Cipher Punk Tech that we built just
cool Cipher Punk Tech that we built just to be able to transact
dollars it's disappointing uhhuh it is it is
disappointing uhhuh it is it is disappointing but you know the the sad
disappointing but you know the the sad thing is um I think by volume tether not
thing is um I think by volume tether not Bitcoin but tether does the most um
Bitcoin but tether does the most um volume in all of cryptocurrency done uh
volume in all of cryptocurrency done uh and that's sad you know it's sad but uh
and that's sad you know it's sad but uh some somehow what I want to do part of
some somehow what I want to do part of my mission is to find all these people
my mission is to find all these people who love Heather um and persuade them
who love Heather um and persuade them that bitcoin's better than Heather so
that bitcoin's better than Heather so yeah that's that's all you can do say
yeah that's that's all you can do say well here's why I think bitcoin's
well here's why I think bitcoin's better we have a question in the chat
better we have a question in the chat about Monero how do nodes validate of
about Monero how do nodes validate of transaction if they cannot see
anything well they they can see some stuff um the only the only thing that's
stuff um the only the only thing that's actually encrypted in an nrow
actually encrypted in an nrow transaction is the amount uh the sender
transaction is the amount uh the sender list is obfuscation not encryption and
list is obfuscation not encryption and the recipient is um well it's just a PB
the recipient is um well it's just a PB key so it's it's not encrypted at all um
key so it's it's not encrypted at all um yeah so it's a one time PB key or they
yeah so it's a one time PB key or they call it one time even though it shows up
call it one time even though it shows up again as a sender later um yeah so so
again as a sender later um yeah so so what what can they know they can
what what can they know they can validate that information they can
validate that information they can validate that um that that that stuff is
validate that um that that that stuff is true so the only thing they have to uh
true so the only thing they have to uh validate that's like hard to validate is
validate that's like hard to validate is um is the encrypted part which is the
um is the encrypted part which is the amount by the way remember not the full
amount by the way remember not the full amount they leave the fee unencrypted um
amount they leave the fee unencrypted um and for that they have something called
and for that they have something called zero knowledge proofs and you'd have to
zero knowledge proofs and you'd have to get Luke or some someone who actually
get Luke or some someone who actually knows how zero knowledge proofs on here
knows how zero knowledge proofs on here to explain how they work but it has
to explain how they work but it has something to do with uh there's like a
something to do with uh there's like a formula in mathematics where you can
formula in mathematics where you can where you can prove that the sum of all
where you can prove that the sum of all X's is equal to this the I don't know
X's is equal to this the I don't know what the opposite of sum is that the if
what the opposite of sum is that the if you add together all the negatives and
you add together all the negatives and you get a large negative number that
you get a large negative number that large negative number uh you can prove
large negative number uh you can prove that it cancels out with the large
that it cancels out with the large positive number from the sum of all
positive number from the sum of all inputs and that's that's they use that
inputs and that's that's they use that algorithm um but the the cool thing is
algorithm um but the the cool thing is that it in in doing so you don't reveal
that it in in doing so you don't reveal the amounts um you you just know that
the amounts um you you just know that they sum to the correct value uh which
they sum to the correct value uh which is supposed to be zero in an Arrow's
is supposed to be zero in an Arrow's case you're supposed to prove that there
case you're supposed to prove that there are no extra um amounts like every all
are no extra um amounts like every all the amounts are account all the amounts
the amounts are account all the amounts from the inputs are accounted for even
from the inputs are accounted for even though you don't know what they are in
though you don't know what they are in the outputs uh so that's how they that's
the outputs uh so that's how they that's it has something to do with zero
it has something to do with zero knowledge proofs and since I don't know
knowledge proofs and since I don't know how they work I can't um I can't detail
how they work I can't um I can't detail more more than saying it's something to
more more than saying it's something to do with this mathematical
do with this mathematical algorithm what do you think about these
algorithm what do you think about these zero knowledge rollups that are coming
zero knowledge rollups that are coming to bitcoin including shielded client
to bitcoin including shielded client side validation that's something on
side validation that's something on which Robin Linus is working on and also
which Robin Linus is working on and also it's Jonas from blackstream and leaman I
it's Jonas from blackstream and leaman I I've had all three of them to promote
I've had all three of them to promote the paper at the time and there's also
the paper at the time and there's also the one by starkware there's
the one by starkware there's also what else is there the one by alpen
also what else is there the one by alpen labs
labs you think that they bring privacy or is
you think that they bring privacy or is it just about bringing ethereum
it just about bringing ethereum features uh the latter but that it it's
features uh the latter but that it it's so most of these people have connections
so most of these people have connections with the bit BM stuff that I uh and
with the bit BM stuff that I uh and that's why I kind of have some
that's why I kind of have some familiarity with it because I because I
familiarity with it because I because I was how do I restart I want to restart
was how do I restart I want to restart that sentence a lot of this a lot of the
that sentence a lot of this a lot of the companies who are building uh rollups on
companies who are building uh rollups on bitcoin have connections with the BBM
bitcoin have connections with the BBM community
community um
and the I I've always liked rollups from the when they first came out in ethereum
the when they first came out in ethereum I thought um this seems like a cool idea
I thought um this seems like a cool idea I'm still impressed with rollups I think
I'm still impressed with rollups I think I think they're pretty cool uh most of
I think they're pretty cool uh most of them seem to have uh a bridge model that
them seem to have uh a bridge model that or a Federated Bridge model to get from
or a Federated Bridge model to get from ethereum onto the rollup and I don't
ethereum onto the rollup and I don't think you need to do that on ethereum I
think you need to do that on ethereum I think there's I think there's better
think there's I think there's better ways to do it so I don't know why the
ways to do it so I don't know why the the ones I I imagine the ones that don't
the ones I I imagine the ones that don't use a Federated rollup are more
use a Federated rollup are more expensive and that's why they're less
expensive and that's why they're less popular um but rollup technology is I
popular um but rollup technology is I think it's cool it's it's like you all
think it's cool it's it's like you all all this activity is happening over on
all this activity is happening over on the side chain or on this rollup and
the side chain or on this rollup and then you only post um a small chunk of
then you only post um a small chunk of that data a proof of what happened onto
that data a proof of what happened onto the onto the baseland that's I think
the onto the baseland that's I think that's great um so I want I want stuff
that's great um so I want I want stuff like that for Bitcoin and I'm glad that
like that for Bitcoin and I'm glad that there are people trying to bring it over
there are people trying to bring it over to bitcoin uh when I've talked to these
to bitcoin uh when I've talked to these people I think it be really not easy I
people I think it be really not easy I think that we could have had a side CH
think that we could have had a side CH side chain based on BBM about six months
side chain based on BBM about six months after bit VM came out uh as soon like
after bit VM came out uh as soon like within a couple of weeks after bit VM
within a couple of weeks after bit VM came out somebody implemented shotu 56
came out somebody implemented shotu 56 and I think that's all you need to build
and I think that's all you need to build a side chain um I think you just you
a side chain um I think you just you just need to do shock 56 then make it
just need to do shock 56 then make it then make a a tree uh a what's it called
then make a a tree uh a what's it called a Merkel tree of all the people of all
a Merkel tree of all the people of all the addresses that have money on this on
the addresses that have money on this on this side chain and you you post the
this side chain and you you post the proof of it on bitcoin and use BBM to uh
proof of it on bitcoin and use BBM to uh validate that someone who's withdrawing
validate that someone who's withdrawing is really has a leaf in this treat I
is really has a leaf in this treat I think that's all you need to do like
think that's all you need to do like it's just a shot 256 and a and um uh and
it's just a shot 256 and a and um uh and a Merkel tree so I'm really surprised
a Merkel tree so I'm really surprised that we didn't have one six months after
that we didn't have one six months after BBM came out because I because I think I
BBM came out because I because I think I could do that as a hackathon project and
could do that as a hackathon project and raise a million dollars like I was
raise a million dollars like I was talking about earlier um but that does
talking about earlier um but that does so i' asked the BBM teams because
so i' asked the BBM teams because there's like 15 people working on 15
there's like 15 people working on 15 companies working on BBM now why they
companies working on BBM now why they haven't done this uh like done the easy
haven't done this uh like done the easy thing and just make a side chain using a
thing and just make a side chain using a Merkel Tree in in shter 56 and all of
Merkel Tree in in shter 56 and all of them said the same thing they said
them said the same thing they said because that's not what the investors
because that's not what the investors want the investors want ethereum they
want the investors want ethereum they they want us to have defi like ethereum
they want us to have defi like ethereum does and if we just do sh 56 Merkel tree
does and if we just do sh 56 Merkel tree it would only be useful for peer-to-peer
it would only be useful for peer-to-peer payments and not for you know escros and
payments and not for you know escros and whatever else they're doing on defi land
whatever else they're doing on defi land and so I'm just like upset with the
and so I'm just like upset with the whole bit BM ecosystem because they're
whole bit BM ecosystem because they're they're instead of doing what I think is
they're instead of doing what I think is the cool thing which is just make
the cool thing which is just make something that scales Bitcoin better and
something that scales Bitcoin better and and and do it uh they're going after
and and do it uh they're going after this whole ethereum stuff that I think
this whole ethereum stuff that I think is pointless and and unnecessary and
is pointless and and unnecessary and stupid
stupid so
so sad all these smart people chasing
sad all these smart people chasing ethereum yeah I don't know what to say
ethereum yeah I don't know what to say other than that well there are people
other than that well there are people calling this a trojan horse just like
calling this a trojan horse just like they call usdt at troan horse and
they call usdt at troan horse and supposedly the T in usdt stands for for
supposedly the T in usdt stands for for the trozen horse or at least that's what
the trozen horse or at least that's what they tell themselves when they look in
they tell themselves when they look in the
the mirror yeah
mirror yeah uh I yeah it's I I don't know it's
uh I yeah it's I I don't know it's really weird it's how much flexibility
really weird it's how much flexibility in Bitcoin scripting was unlocked by
in Bitcoin scripting was unlocked by Tapo and I don't think anybody at the
Tapo and I don't think anybody at the time knew that that you could do this
time knew that that you could do this stuff with Tapo uh yeah once bit once
stuff with Tapo uh yeah once bit once BBM came out I think the door was pretty
BBM came out I think the door was pretty much knocked open and and you can do
much knocked open and and you can do anything on bitcoin that you can do on
anything on bitcoin that you can do on any other chain because you can emulate
any other chain because you can emulate any other chain on bitcoin which is what
any other chain on bitcoin which is what these rollup rollup teams are doing
these rollup rollup teams are doing they're emulating
they're emulating ethereum so yeah it's kind of stupid
ethereum so yeah it's kind of stupid that they that that's the one they chose
that they that that's the one they chose to go for of all the blockchains why
to go for of all the blockchains why ethereum and and the answer is well
ethereum and and the answer is well that's what the investors wanted that's
that's what the investors wanted that's where that's where the money
where that's where the money is well there's a bit more to that
is well there's a bit more to that because there is sort of I mean I
because there is sort of I mean I remember for the last 8 years that there
remember for the last 8 years that there were attempts to build a better ethereum
were attempts to build a better ethereum it's just just that this one has most
it's just just that this one has most applications most contracts most
applications most contracts most developers and it's just easy to Port
developers and it's just easy to Port applications you don't have to reinvent
applications you don't have to reinvent the wheel even though the wheel is
the wheel even though the wheel is broken well I do like tornado cach uh so
broken well I do like tornado cach uh so there there's a few contracts on on
there there's a few contracts on on ethereum that I find really interesting
ethereum that I find really interesting and one of them is tornado cash so if
and one of them is tornado cash so if these um BDM
these um BDM teams succeed at making an ethereum
teams succeed at making an ethereum clone that you know settles on bitcoin
clone that you know settles on bitcoin uh at least I will take comfort in the
uh at least I will take comfort in the fact that I can that we have that we
fact that I can that we have that we have tornado cash now on bitcoin so
have tornado cash now on bitcoin so that'll be good or at least that settles
that'll be good or at least that settles to bitcoin how is tornado cash different
to bitcoin how is tornado cash different from a coin
from a coin join well it's it's a pool model so in a
join well it's it's a pool model so in a in a coin join you're using a
in a coin join you're using a transaction model where you have you
transaction model where you have you know let's say 15 people decide to do a
know let's say 15 people decide to do a coin join together they make a single
coin join together they make a single transaction where they list all all the
transaction where they list all all the outputs they want and they randomize
outputs they want and they randomize them and that that's great you get you
them and that that's great you get you get one private transaction in a pool
get one private transaction in a pool model you deposit coins into the pool uh
model you deposit coins into the pool uh and you you can leave them there like
and you you can leave them there like they just sit there in a in a Bitcoin or
they just sit there in a in a Bitcoin or in a ethereum address for however long
in a ethereum address for however long you're in the pool for uh and when you
you're in the pool for uh and when you decide to leave or when you decide to
decide to leave or when you decide to make a transaction you just deduct from
make a transaction you just deduct from your balance in the pool um but the the
your balance in the pool um but the the advantage of this is only you know what
advantage of this is only you know what your balance in the pool is you have to
your balance in the pool is you have to prove using zero knowledge proofs like
prove using zero knowledge proofs like like how um when does for the amounts
like how um when does for the amounts you have to prove that you have a
you have to prove that you have a balance in this pool and that the amount
balance in this pool and that the amount you're sending out is is less than your
you're sending out is is less than your current balance um but that's all you
current balance um but that's all you get like you don't prove which person in
get like you don't prove which person in the pool you are and uh and so that's
the pool you are and uh and so that's great like it's really wonderful um it's
great like it's really wonderful um it's it's like a it's like a constant coin
it's like a it's like a constant coin join instead of and it's also
join instead of and it's also non-interactive it's the other thing in
non-interactive it's the other thing in a coin join if you want to do a if you
a coin join if you want to do a if you want to do a constant coin join you can
want to do a constant coin join you can by just doing it in every every block
by just doing it in every every block doing you can do a join a coin join in
doing you can do a join a coin join in every block but it costs money um and
every block but it costs money um and it's interactive you have to keep a
it's interactive you have to keep a server or some wallet running on your
server or some wallet running on your desktop uh that's constantly joining
desktop uh that's constantly joining these these coin joints with tornado
these these coin joints with tornado cach it's non interactive you you put
cach it's non interactive you you put your money into the pool you turn off
your money into the pool you turn off your device you can even do it on a
your device you can even do it on a phone uh you walk away you come back a
phone uh you walk away you come back a month later and you just open it up and
month later and you just open it up and your money's still there uh because it
your money's still there uh because it can't be spent unless you have the proof
can't be spent unless you have the proof uh when you only the you of the proof so
uh when you only the you of the proof so then you then you withdraw well it's
then you then you withdraw well it's typically a withdrawal whenever you
typically a withdrawal whenever you spend um but you just you just send it
spend um but you just you just send it to wherever you want to send it and it
to wherever you want to send it and it works uh so I really like that model and
works uh so I really like that model and uh some of some of my re if if you guys
uh some of some of my re if if you guys want to look into this search my uh
want to look into this search my uh Twitter profile I've come I've recently
Twitter profile I've come I've recently come up with a way to do a coin pool on
come up with a way to do a coin pool on bitcoin uh that has a lot of the same
bitcoin uh that has a lot of the same properties as tornado cache so uh look
properties as tornado cache so uh look into that I I'm hoping to release a demo
into that I I'm hoping to release a demo video uh soon and I'm also going over
video uh soon and I'm also going over how to make it at Bitcoin Plus+ fipa so
how to make it at Bitcoin Plus+ fipa so if you go to uh BTC plus plus. deev the
if you go to uh BTC plus plus. deev the word plus is spelled out ptcp usplus
word plus is spelled out ptcp usplus s.dev you can go to you can register for
s.dev you can go to you can register for the conference in fla um Brazil where I
the conference in fla um Brazil where I will show how to do a coin pool on
will show how to do a coin pool on bitcoin because uh I figured out how to
bitcoin because uh I figured out how to do it and uh it's not as good as tornado
do it and uh it's not as good as tornado cach but it's still got a lot of cool
cach but it's still got a lot of cool privacy properties you should you should
privacy properties you should you should check it
check it out no I I just became excited about BTC
out no I I just became excited about BTC Plus+ I might come I don't know it it
Plus+ I might come I don't know it it depends on whether or not my girlfriend
depends on whether or not my girlfriend gets a Visa it's more difficult for her
gets a Visa it's more difficult for her but we'll see oh yeah cool cool yeah I I
but we'll see oh yeah cool cool yeah I I look forward to possibly seeing you
look forward to possibly seeing you there yeah I got invited by Lisa to
there yeah I got invited by Lisa to moderate something I'm not sure exactly
moderate something I'm not sure exactly what but that could be
what but that could be fun you did that answer your question
fun you did that answer your question though you said um how is how is tornado
though you said um how is how is tornado cash different from a coin join is it
cash different from a coin join is it okay so it's non interactive you can
okay so it's non interactive you can switch it
switch it off you just put your money in a pool
off you just put your money in a pool and I think that's really cool yeah me
and I think that's really cool yeah me too so if if these bit VM people uh get
too so if if these bit VM people uh get us that I'll be happy even though I
us that I'll be happy even though I won't be happy that they had to
won't be happy that they had to implement all of ethereum to do
it I I like you so much no homo anyway I like you too slight homo no I'm
anyway I like you too slight homo no I'm just kidding I'm gonna put the what's it
just kidding I'm gonna put the what's it called the shop fre
called the shop fre one shopster the shopster window on the
one shopster the shopster window on the screen because you're going to present
screen because you're going to present What's Happening Here There are some
What's Happening Here There are some listings this is sort of a dark net
listings this is sort of a dark net market right and there's stuff that's
market right and there's stuff that's being sold for
being sold for Bitcoin there's there's stuff that's
Bitcoin there's there's stuff that's being sold for Bitcoin so what this is
being sold for Bitcoin so what this is uh a while when when you are you
uh a while when when you are you familiar with well of course you're
familiar with well of course you're familiar with Noster you announced this
familiar with Noster you announced this H podcast on Noster Noster came out I
H podcast on Noster Noster came out I don't know four years ago or something
don't know four years ago or something three years ago and one of the
three years ago and one of the specifications that was quickly uh
specifications that was quickly uh created for making posts on Noster was
created for making posts on Noster was was classified ads so if you go to if
was classified ads so if you go to if you if anyone's a developer and you
you if anyone's a developer and you search for um Noster Noster
search for um Noster Noster implementation possibility 999 or nip 99
implementation possibility 999 or nip 99 uh it's classified ads and anyone can
uh it's classified ads and anyone can post to Noster relays uh you know a
post to Noster relays uh you know a listing of something that they have for
listing of something that they have for sale and you give it a you give it a
sale and you give it a you give it a title you give it a picture um you give
title you give it a picture um you give it a price and uh this this website this
it a price and uh this this website this shopster website just uh on on tour it
shopster website just uh on on tour it pulls down this data from a bunch of
pulls down this data from a bunch of Noster relays Noster relays and then
Noster relays Noster relays and then displays it in a pretty uh fashion um
displays it in a pretty uh fashion um and payments are made using the
and payments are made using the lightning Network so uh that's been not
lightning Network so uh that's been not quite baked into Noster but very closely
quite baked into Noster but very closely uh most of the early Noster developers
uh most of the early Noster developers including the creative Noster were also
including the creative Noster were also lightning developers there's like a lot
lightning developers there's like a lot of co-working that happened there and a
of co-working that happened there and a lot of the stuff that happens on Noster
lot of the stuff that happens on Noster is using the lightning Network including
is using the lightning Network including these classified ads so that's why this
these classified ads so that's why this particular DNM all it all it is doing is
particular DNM all it all it is doing is just holding classified ads from Noster
just holding classified ads from Noster and then displaying them uh and giving
and then displaying them uh and giving you a a a button for having items in
you a a a button for having items in your cart and purchasing them um but
your cart and purchasing them um but yeah to to me it qualifies as a dark net
yeah to to me it qualifies as a dark net market and if you scroll a little while
market and if you scroll a little while you can also see people so some prior
you can also see people so some prior examples that I've given of this people
examples that I've given of this people will say it's not a dark net Market
will say it's not a dark net Market unless there's drugs on it and I think
unless there's drugs on it and I think that's stupid because um there's a lot
that's stupid because um there's a lot of stuff on darket markets not just
of stuff on darket markets not just drugs but um yeah it's some people are
drugs but um yeah it's some people are on shopster selling drugs which is uh a
on shopster selling drugs which is uh a thing um don't do drugs but uh yeah
thing um don't do drugs but uh yeah they're doing it so there's a there is a
they're doing it so there's a there is a darket market that has drugs and it uses
darket market that has drugs and it uses a lighting Network for payments and this
a lighting Network for payments and this is this is it this is this is the one
is this is it this is this is the one that I know
that I know of oh you can buy Hardware wallets but I
of oh you can buy Hardware wallets but I would never buy a hardware wallet from
would never buy a hardware wallet from these guys I saw that there's oh there's
these guys I saw that there's oh there's a banana art there's an Atari 2600 with
a banana art there's an Atari 2600 with a controller that looks tempting
a controller that looks tempting yeah another thing to be aware of uh
yeah another thing to be aware of uh there's no escrow on these things you
there's no escrow on these things you just send the money directly you
just send the money directly you effectively it's not it's not the same
effectively it's not it's not the same as a zap but it's it's similar to zaps
as a zap but it's it's similar to zaps uh they have their own you way of doing
uh they have their own you way of doing lightning payments uh but you they goes
lightning payments uh but you they goes directly to the recipient um there's no
directly to the recipient um there's no there's no um like custodian well
there's no um like custodian well actually they I think most of them are
actually they I think most of them are using ecash mint but yeah but it depends
using ecash mint but yeah but it depends on which mint you're using because you
on which mint you're using because you can run your own mint most I assume most
can run your own mint most I assume most of this stuff is because is custodi but
of this stuff is because is custodi but the custodial services that are using it
the custodial services that are using it do not offer escra services uh and
do not offer escra services uh and consequently if you buy you know a
consequently if you buy you know a banana tape to a wall and he and then
banana tape to a wall and he and then you send him the money and he doesn't
you send him the money and he doesn't send you a banana tape to a wall all you
send you a banana tape to a wall all you can do is leave him a bad review you
can do is leave him a bad review you can't you don't get your money back
can't you don't get your money back um so be aware of that oh I found the
um so be aware of that oh I found the one that I found the listing that has uh
one that I found the listing that has uh that has that has drugs I will post it
that has that has drugs I will post it in your uh in your telegram so you can
in your uh in your telegram so you can see under which category is it I don't
see under which category is it I don't know let me check
know let me check F I just I just scrolled until I found
F I just I just scrolled until I found it uh it is how do you see the
it uh it is how do you see the categories I
categories I don't it do the the listing page doesn't
don't it do the the listing page doesn't show what what categories it has um I
show what what categories it has um I could probably find out let me let me
could probably find out let me let me look it up by means of um maybe it's
look it up by means of um maybe it's miscellaneous it could be I think I
miscellaneous it could be I think I think the categories are listed are in
think the categories are listed are in the listing from Noster so I could look
the listing from Noster so I could look it up that way but I'll have to refresh
it up that way but I'll have to refresh the page
the page and get all L thingss that mentioned
and get all L thingss that mentioned this okay got that here's the response
this okay got that here's the response okay take that back this this is a lot
okay take that back this this is a lot like xamar
like xamar Bazaar there you go he's uh he's
Bazaar there you go he's uh he's learning he's learning stuff
learning he's learning stuff um no I'm
um no I'm not maybe I can get it from another
not maybe I can get it from another relay I would have to look into it to
relay I would have to look into it to find out what category it's under but I
find out what category it's under but I just sent you the L fine I pasted the
just sent you the L fine I pasted the link it's just that tour is being tour
link it's just that tour is being tour yeah I need to search for a new circuit
yeah I need to search for a new circuit make it load come on I believe in
loading uh well can can you tell me what it's called and I can search for
it's called and I can search for it uh yeah I uh or I could a second ago
it uh yeah I uh or I could a second ago I think it uh it it had the the word
I think it uh it it had the the word hash in
hash in it I don't know I SC for like three
it I don't know I SC for like three minutes CH hash rounds by Cy they look
minutes CH hash rounds by Cy they look like greasy's pieces and apparently they
like greasy's pieces and apparently they have marijuana in them so that's a
have marijuana in them so that's a thing I don't know I'm I'm on a diet you
thing I don't know I'm I'm on a diet you seem to be going to the gym
seem to be going to the gym too yeah and I also don't do drugs so me
neither there's a guy selling homemade pickup ly and I had to look it up
pickup ly and I had to look it up because I like that's probably a drug
because I like that's probably a drug and no it's not it's just a
and no it's not it's just a plant but this guy's also selling his
plant but this guy's also selling his Canon
camera there you go so yeah it's like XMR bizarre but it's on tour well the
XMR bizarre but it's on tour well the this instance is on tour there's another
this instance is on tour there's another instance uh that's not on tour so you
instance uh that's not on tour so you can also brow it on clear
can also brow it on clear neck uh it's also built into amethyst if
neck uh it's also built into amethyst if you have the amethyst app on Android um
you have the amethyst app on Android um this you know it it also displays
this you know it it also displays classified ads from across the Noster
classified ads from across the Noster verse so you can do that
verse so you can do that too so shopster check it out it's pretty
too so shopster check it out it's pretty cool you can find Google pixel phones a
cool you can find Google pixel phones a Kindle paper white one or 50 Euro not
Kindle paper white one or 50 Euro not bad I'm thinking about I'm thinking
bad I'm thinking about I'm thinking about making something uh to show off
about making something uh to show off how how you can use lightning on darket
how how you can use lightning on darket markets but my darket market would only
markets but my darket market would only sell Bibles so I was going to call it
sell Bibles so I was going to call it hark net Market because the angels in
hark net Market because the angels in the Bible always say hark they say hark
the Bible always say hark they say hark yeah it means listen in in Old English
yeah it means listen in in Old English it's like listen then they say something
it's like listen then they say something um
um hark can buy iPhone iPhone 15 Pro Max
hark can buy iPhone iPhone 15 Pro Max with 1 million Satoshi from Spain how
with 1 million Satoshi from Spain how much is that in today's money it's like
,000 does it look worth $1,000 dollar to you not
you not really there you go maybe I would pay
really there you go maybe I would pay 800 but I'm not sure when the listing
800 but I'm not sure when the listing was made and what the price was that's
was made and what the price was that's part of the problem when you denominate
part of the problem when you denominate and
and Bitcoin it becomes more expensive and
Bitcoin it becomes more expensive and gets out of
gets out of control you can always just uh you can
control you can always just uh you can edit your listings these are all
edit your listings these are all replaceable Noster events so you can
replaceable Noster events so you can edit it change the price and then repost
edit it change the price and then repost it um you can also denominate in US
it um you can also denominate in US Dollars on uh on shopster listings or in
Dollars on uh on shopster listings or in any other currency but I think I met the
any other currency but I think I met the shopster guys in Nashville they had a
shopster guys in Nashville they had a booth it's just that I was ignorant I
booth it's just that I was ignorant I did not realize it for some reason it
did not realize it for some reason it just went over my head I actually won
just went over my head I actually won something in the raffle wait I I think I
something in the raffle wait I I think I have it
have it here I convinced the shopster guys to
here I convinced the shopster guys to make a significant privacy Improvement
make a significant privacy Improvement um which is originally on shopster um
um which is originally on shopster um you had to sign in in order to buy stuff
you had to sign in in order to buy stuff uh cool a flipper zero you want to tell
uh cool a flipper zero you want to tell us about your flipper zero I've never
us about your flipper zero I've never used it really but I do have
used it really but I do have it there you go and I think it's illegal
it there you go and I think it's illegal in some countries I don't know about
in some countries I don't know about that I just got it cool from their
that I just got it cool from their contest um so originally on shop stre
contest um so originally on shop stre you had to sign in in order to buy stuff
you had to sign in in order to buy stuff so if if you clicked you know buy now or
so if if you clicked you know buy now or you added something to your card it
you added something to your card it would be like you have to log in to do
would be like you have to log in to do that behavior and that stupid and I told
that behavior and that stupid and I told them why do you make the buyer log in
them why do you make the buyer log in he's all he's going to do is send a
he's all he's going to do is send a message to the uh to the uh to the
message to the uh to the uh to the seller containing where to send the item
seller containing where to send the item and his money you could just spin up a
and his money you could just spin up a public a public key for him you know in
public a public key for him you know in the background and uh send the message
the background and uh send the message using that public key and then he
using that public key and then he wouldn't have to give away his real
wouldn't have to give away his real identity or his you know Noster identity
identity or his you know Noster identity to use to use the shop and so they
to use to use the shop and so they implemented that and a few months later
implemented that and a few months later shopster came out again and now you
shopster came out again and now you don't need to sign in in order to buy
don't need to sign in in order to buy stuff which I think is a big privacy
stuff which I think is a big privacy Improvement so yay for
privacy yeah there's a lot of cool stuff happening and I'm not even aware of it
happening and I'm not even aware of it thank you for telling me about this oh
thank you for telling me about this oh there there's someone selling a
there there's someone selling a Lambo I think it has no price it has no
Lambo I think it has no price it has no details just one picture don't trust
details just one picture don't trust verify yeah he's probably not selling a
verify yeah he's probably not selling a Lambo and it's silver like who would buy
Lambo and it's silver like who would buy silver silver Lambo you got to buy it
silver silver Lambo you got to buy it orange if you're going to spend Bitcoin
orange if you're going to spend Bitcoin on
on it right I mean I don't think I'll ever
it right I mean I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I'm like oh okay
get to the point where I'm like oh okay let's buy Lambo but who knows
let's buy Lambo but who knows uh I bought a Monte Carlo once does that
uh I bought a Monte Carlo once does that does that count as getting to that point
does that count as getting to that point a what a Monte Carlo what's a Monte
a what a Monte Carlo what's a Monte Carlo it's a muscle car it looks looks
Carlo it's a muscle car it looks looks cool oh let me look that up Monte Carlo
cool oh let me look that up Monte Carlo car
car is it one word or two words oh chevret
is it one word or two words oh chevret Monto Carlo
Monto Carlo okay yeah it's two
words so I got one of those once and I felt cool I was like yeah I've got a
felt cool I was like yeah I've got a cool looking
cool looking car you don't find something like this
car you don't find something like this in Europe it's not environmental
in Europe it's not environmental enough and people don't like it they
enough and people don't like it they don't import something like this it was
don't import something like this it was probably never sold here anyway but it's
probably never sold here anyway but it's named after a city there
named after a city there sure I don't think Paris Hilton was born
sure I don't think Paris Hilton was born in Europe and she's named after a city
in Europe and she's named after a city too but you guys have what's it called
too but you guys have what's it called maretti or whatever the the the car
maretti or whatever the the the car that's made by the fancy Italian
that's made by the fancy Italian guy Ferrari you guys have Ferrari and
guy Ferrari you guys have Ferrari and Pagani and even fancier stuff and
Pagani and even fancier stuff and Lamborghini yeah like you're saying you
Lamborghini yeah like you're saying you don't have you don't no one would import
don't have you don't no one would import a fancy car well you don't need to
a fancy car well you don't need to import him because you make them right
import him because you make them right there yeah but this is a Chevy I think
there yeah but this is a Chevy I think it's much more affordable than a Ferrari
it's much more affordable than a Ferrari or a
or a Porsche well it was very affordable I
Porsche well it was very affordable I can admit to that I felt rich though
can admit to that I felt rich though because it looks
because it looks cool yeah it's a muscle car so what what
cool yeah it's a muscle car so what what was the gas mileage on this
was the gas mileage on this one uh 22 miles per gallon well but
one uh 22 miles per gallon well but that's I I have to convert that to
that's I I have to convert that to metric for you MPG to what is it uh k PM
metric for you MPG to what is it uh k PM I think is what you guys okay let me
I think is what you guys okay let me liters per kilometer
liters per kilometer yeah liters per 100
yeah liters per 100 kilm that's how we measure uh 10 10.7
kilm that's how we measure uh 10 10.7 lers per 100
lers per 100 kilometers
kilometers 10.7 that's what the internet tells me
10.7 that's what the internet tells me I've seen much worse
I've seen much worse honestly I expected that given that it's
honestly I expected that given that it's a muscle car to do like 15
a muscle car to do like 15 20 yeah well it was a muscle car for
20 yeah well it was a muscle car for Mass adoption so they throttled the
Mass adoption so they throttled the engine speed on it they put a
engine speed on it they put a six-cylinder engine in there and then if
six-cylinder engine in there and then if you revved it it would just it would
you revved it it would just it would just like cap at a certain point you
just like cap at a certain point you couldn't you couldn't R past
couldn't you couldn't R past that seems like you had a pretty wild
that seems like you had a pretty wild youth
youth man did the girls like
man did the girls like it uh I never I never
it uh I never I never asked you don't have to ask you just
asked you don't have to ask you just know well they didn't tell me then
know well they didn't tell me then oh that's good if there were at least
oh that's good if there were at least girls and they never mentioned
girls and they never mentioned it that's
it that's good I got to mention two more sponsors
good I got to mention two more sponsors and then I'll ask you more questions
and then I'll ask you more questions about lightning Network and
about lightning Network and privacy so check out no ones they
privacy so check out no ones they recently got hacked that's a good way to
recently got hacked that's a good way to introduce them they lost some salana
introduce them they lost some salana from their bridge and they're going to
from their bridge and they're going to make the customers even and the message
make the customers even and the message from them actually is to not keep your
from them actually is to not keep your coins on exchanges unless you're
coins on exchanges unless you're planning to immediately exchange that
planning to immediately exchange that but what no one is is this peer-to-peer
but what no one is is this peer-to-peer Marketplace that is trying to empower
Marketplace that is trying to empower people from what rusf the CEO calls the
people from what rusf the CEO calls the global sou
global sou and I think they do that mostly with
and I think they do that mostly with gift cards because these are most liquid
gift cards because these are most liquid it's what everyone wants they're buying
it's what everyone wants they're buying them they everyone gets a cut and if you
them they everyone gets a cut and if you want to participate in this economy
want to participate in this economy check out no one's
check out no one's I think it also started out it's
I think it also started out it's interesting because it started out as
interesting because it started out as Civ kit which was built on
Civ kit which was built on noer and now it's a standalone
Marketplace and there's there's also huddling doc which is a service from
huddling doc which is a service from Switzerland they help you with self-
Switzerland they help you with self- custody if you have a lot of Bitcoin and
custody if you have a lot of Bitcoin and have no idea how to manage it in order
have no idea how to manage it in order to avoid $5 rent to tax or you're part
to avoid $5 rent to tax or you're part of a company that's planning to buy
of a company that's planning to buy Bitcoin and you don't know how to manage
Bitcoin and you don't know how to manage the setup to have a quorum and maybe to
the setup to have a quorum and maybe to avoid having an annoying CTO stealing
avoid having an annoying CTO stealing everything then you can contact these
everything then you can contact these guys and they're going to provide all
guys and they're going to provide all the consultation and all of the good
the consultation and all of the good advice about how you can set up how or
advice about how you can set up how or whether or not you should be using
whether or not you should be using Hardware wallets how you should use
Hardware wallets how you should use multisig and all of that so check out
multisig and all of that so check out hl. CH and recently they also added a
hl. CH and recently they also added a service for coin recovery so if lost
service for coin recovery so if lost part of your seed phrase they might be
part of your seed phrase they might be able to brute force that or if you give
able to brute force that or if you give them some details they might help you
them some details they might help you recover your coins of course there's a
recover your coins of course there's a cut that they're going to take for that
cut that they're going to take for that it will not be a free service but I
it will not be a free service but I guess it's better than losing coins
guess it's better than losing coins forever so check out hen.
forever so check out hen. CH anyway let's talk about exciting
CH anyway let's talk about exciting lightning stuff because it seems like
lightning stuff because it seems like what's really news these days is that
what's really news these days is that they're getting usdt on it like like I
they're getting usdt on it like like I remember initially that lightning was
remember initially that lightning was going to beat this bridge across
going to beat this bridge across blockchains it was going to enable
blockchains it was going to enable Atomic swaps it was going to make
Atomic swaps it was going to make exchanges obsolete it was going to have
exchanges obsolete it was going to have much better privacy what happened to
much better privacy what happened to that uh it's um well it's not entirely
that uh it's um well it's not entirely false there are two other like root
false there are two other like root stock uses it and so does uh bolts
stock uses it and so does uh bolts exchange or I mean so does liquid and
exchange or I mean so does liquid and you can use bolts exchange to to swap
you can use bolts exchange to to swap between those places using uh using the
between those places using uh using the lighting Network so it is it is bridging
lighting Network so it is it is bridging between three different chains Bitcoin
between three different chains Bitcoin liquid and root stock um I so there's
liquid and root stock um I so there's that uh the other thing is it's going to
that uh the other thing is it's going to kill exchanges um well uh I guess still
kill exchanges um well uh I guess still in progress uh there's one there's a
in progress uh there's one there's a there's two exchanges that use lightning
there's two exchanges that use lightning now or um I mean two exchange killers
now or um I mean two exchange killers that use lightning Robo sets and bis uh
that use lightning Robo sets and bis uh so can you can do your Fiat on and off
so can you can do your Fiat on and off ramping through those and use a lighting
ramping through those and use a lighting network uh but I guess you're you're not
network uh but I guess you're you're not like even if I give you examples of the
like even if I give you examples of the things you described being things I
things you described being things I think you're wondering why aren't they
think you're wondering why aren't they popular um is that is that what you're
popular um is that is that what you're wondering or it's not just popularity
wondering or it's not just popularity but also investing and building at least
but also investing and building at least usable applications you know because
usable applications you know because it's still pretty complicated and
it's still pretty complicated and if it's not complicated you have to use
if it's not complicated you have to use services like bolts that take a cut and
services like bolts that take a cut and that that was not the purpose of it
that that was not the purpose of it right it was supposed to be easy for you
right it was supposed to be easy for you to swap
to swap assets yeah um well I I think Robos sets
assets yeah um well I I think Robos sets is easy
is easy so give that a try uh you can swap
so give that a try uh you can swap assets using uh using Robos sets and I
assets using uh using Robos sets and I think it's really easy um bisque is
think it's really easy um bisque is bisque also has lighning but I don't
bisque also has lighning but I don't think it's as easy I have not had a
think it's as easy I have not had a successful lightning trade on bis since
successful lightning trade on bis since they added it um but good on you for for
they added it um but good on you for for adding it bisque uh do it better I guess
adding it bisque uh do it better I guess uh Robo set's got it figured out um yeah
uh Robo set's got it figured out um yeah I don't I don't know I I guess I think
I don't I don't know I I guess I think that most people most people don't care
that most people most people don't care about their privacy until they get
about their privacy until they get burned um and that's when they started
burned um and that's when they started caring so I think that as long as it is
caring so I think that as long as it is easier to uh go on you know Kraken or
easier to uh go on you know Kraken or coinbase or whatever and get your
coinbase or whatever and get your Bitcoins there people aren't going to
Bitcoins there people aren't going to use the uh the the the people aren't
use the uh the the the people aren't going to use private Solutions if
going to use private Solutions if they're not as easy except if they've
they're not as easy except if they've been burnt like the people who do are
been burnt like the people who do are you know people who either got sored for
you know people who either got sored for an exchange somehow or you know they're
an exchange somehow or you know they're like you and me or I me anyway who just
like you and me or I me anyway who just think it's cool so I do it anyway
think it's cool so I do it anyway um yeah uh but there's just not many
um yeah uh but there's just not many people like that there's not many people
people like that there's not many people who particularly care about their
who particularly care about their privacy and uh and so you don't you
privacy and uh and so you don't you don't see a lot of people going through
don't see a lot of people going through extra trck Hoops in order to do
extra trck Hoops in order to do something privately I don't know what to
something privately I don't know what to say about it other than it's sad and I
say about it other than it's sad and I try to change that by encouraging people
try to change that by encouraging people to use the to use stuff like to use
to use the to use stuff like to use roboat
specifically yeah
yeah u i I just want to mention this I'm not
u i I just want to mention this I'm not sure if it's legally advisable or
sure if it's legally advisable or something but when I sold my Bitcoin to
something but when I sold my Bitcoin to buy the car I decided to do it by the
buy the car I decided to do it by the book so I kyc to Kraken I went for every
book so I kyc to Kraken I went for every step I sold to my bank account I
step I sold to my bank account I reported to my bank account and now they
reported to my bank account and now they want to shut down my account potentially
want to shut down my account potentially and they want information that I don't
and they want information that I don't have like where did I get the Bitcoin
have like where did I get the Bitcoin from and this is a requirement that
from and this is a requirement that entered part of a y regulation that
entered part of a y regulation that started this year and when I bought the
started this year and when I bought the Bitcoin 8 years ago there was no such
Bitcoin 8 years ago there was no such regulation it's really stupid and I
regulation it's really stupid and I didn't buy it from an exchange that's
didn't buy it from an exchange that's kyc so I can't prove anything I could I
kyc so I can't prove anything I could I could also mine it or get it as a gift
could also mine it or get it as a gift or donation it's very hard to prove
or donation it's very hard to prove anything but I wanted to do everything
anything but I wanted to do everything by the book but if I maintained my
by the book but if I maintained my Cypher Punk mindset and I just sold it
Cypher Punk mindset and I just sold it on bisque or I met someone on vexel and
on bisque or I met someone on vexel and I got a m a bag of money and then I went
I got a m a bag of money and then I went to the bank and deposited this to the
to the bank and deposited this to the bank and told them you know I'm a male
bank and told them you know I'm a male prostitute I'm an only fans model
prostitute I'm an only fans model I I I don't know I sleep with your
I I I don't know I sleep with your section of the video exactly I I sleep
section of the video exactly I I sleep with your bank's manager what can you do
with your bank's manager what can you do I I got paid hush money or something
I I got paid hush money or something they would be like okay fine I would
they would be like okay fine I would tell them you know I play poker with
tell them you know I play poker with rich people they would just shog it off
rich people they would just shog it off and say yeah that's fine it doesn't
and say yeah that's fine it doesn't matter you can deposit into the bank but
matter you can deposit into the bank but since my transaction was associated with
since my transaction was associated with Kraken they asked me all sorts of
Kraken they asked me all sorts of questions and also Kraken were [ __ ]
questions and also Kraken were [ __ ] too they ask me a lot of questions which
too they ask me a lot of questions which I'm not going to answer just [ __ ] them
I'm not going to answer just [ __ ] them let let them close my
account yeah uh I do you need if why would you
uh I do you need if why would you deposit the if you got a bag of money
deposit the if you got a bag of money from vexel from someone on vexel why
from vexel from someone on vexel why would you deposit it at the bank why not
would you deposit it at the bank why not walk over directly over to the guy who
walk over directly over to the guy who has the car and say Here's your $100,000
has the car and say Here's your $100,000 or whatever it is because it was much
or whatever it is because it was much more than a oh you said $100,000 now it
more than a oh you said $100,000 now it was much cheaper than that but in
was much cheaper than that but in Romania which is part of the European
Romania which is part of the European Union we have a limit for € 2,000 so
Union we have a limit for € 2,000 so anything above 2,000 EUR has to go for a
anything above 2,000 EUR has to go for a bank the guy if he sees a bag of money
bank the guy if he sees a bag of money who would he would never accept that
who would he would never accept that he's gonna ask me go to a
he's gonna ask me go to a [Music]
[Music] bank I recommend finding a new country
bank I recommend finding a new country that one sounds like it has terrible
that one sounds like it has terrible laws for financial it really does like
laws for financial it really does like if I want to buy a laptop that's more
if I want to buy a laptop that's more expensive than 2,000 Euro and I save
expensive than 2,000 Euro and I save every month for two years let's say I
every month for two years let's say I save 100 euro for two years that's 2,400
save 100 euro for two years that's 2,400 I still have to put that in a bank if I
I still have to put that in a bank if I want to buy what I
want to buy what I want well there's 180 some there like
want well there's 180 some there like 205 countries I think at last count by
205 countries I think at last count by the un uh so pick one of those and maybe
the un uh so pick one of those and maybe one of the ones that doesn't make you do
one of the ones that doesn't make you do that and the US you can buy cars for
that and the US you can buy cars for cash you can also do that here if it's
cash you can also do that here if it's less than 2,000 Euro
less than 2,000 Euro that sounded like I was saying go to the
that sounded like I was saying go to the US I don't think you should go to the US
US I don't think you should go to the US the US has other what laws that are
the US has other what laws that are really bad but at least they can do that
really bad but at least they can do that one that's a
one that's a thing I don't know how long this is
thing I don't know how long this is going to last it just feels like it
going to last it just feels like it became more
became more intrusive I mean I I'm a big fan of the
intrusive I mean I I'm a big fan of the open market of the European Union I'm a
open market of the European Union I'm a big fan of countries collaborating but
big fan of countries collaborating but at this point just having these
at this point just having these regulations that come from Brussels and
regulations that come from Brussels and they they're not
they they're not I don't know I I'm not sure if they're
I don't know I I'm not sure if they're Justified maybe that they concern
Justified maybe that they concern problem problems that they have in
problem problems that they have in Brussels and they're out of touch with
Brussels and they're out of touch with the reality somewhere else it's really
the reality somewhere else it's really messed up like getting an email from my
messed up like getting an email from my bank I've been their customer since I
bank I've been their customer since I was 16 years old and they said you know
was 16 years old and they said you know we want to check if you're participating
we want to check if you're participating in money laundering or terrorist
in money laundering or terrorist financing and I was like really you you
financing and I was like really you you really let that part in when you send me
really let that part in when you send me that email
that email like I don't know it it sucks and I try
like I don't know it it sucks and I try to do everything by the book and I try
to do everything by the book and I try to be as transparent as possible and if
to be as transparent as possible and if I wasn't and I lied to them it would be
I wasn't and I lied to them it would be much better and that that's what is
much better and that that's what is really ironic about the
situation um well see it's leaving is always an
well see it's leaving is always an option so that's my that's my uh vote my
option so that's my that's my uh vote my if if you wanted if you ask for advice
if if you wanted if you ask for advice which you didn't I would tell you
which you didn't I would tell you leave how do you manage it
leave how do you manage it like they legends about yourself that
like they legends about yourself that you live in a tent or something and you
you live in a tent or something and you just travel around the world and never
just travel around the world and never stay for longer than a week
stay for longer than a week anywhere well I did live in a tent for
anywhere well I did live in a tent for uh a year I think I lived in a tent for
uh a year I think I lived in a tent for a year um but I'm not living in a tent
a year um but I'm not living in a tent now I'm living at a hostel and I've been
now I'm living at a hostel and I've been in guadalahara Mexico for uh since July
in guadalahara Mexico for uh since July however many months that is so of and on
however many months that is so of and on I travel I go I still travel all over
I travel I go I still travel all over the place to bitcoin conferences and
the place to bitcoin conferences and stuff so I'm often gone for weeks at a
stuff so I'm often gone for weeks at a time but I keep coming back to guara and
time but I keep coming back to guara and I really like it here so uh you should
I really like it here so uh you should you should come to guara it's great I
you should come to guara it's great I should learn
should learn Spanish yeah I don't speak it very well
Spanish yeah I don't speak it very well either but uh you can get
either but uh you can get by coming back to the topic of lightning
by coming back to the topic of lightning there's something I really wanted to ask
there's something I really wanted to ask you but forgot you have lots of
you but forgot you have lots of implementation
implementation maybe not lots of them maybe a handful
maybe not lots of them maybe a handful you have L&D which is the most popular
you have L&D which is the most popular you have core lightning which was
you have core lightning which was supposed to be big but it never took off
supposed to be big but it never took off you have the one by async that's called
you have the one by async that's called eclair and I think that one is being
eclair and I think that one is being used by Phoenix for their wallet you
used by Phoenix for their wallet you have one by electrum which I think is
have one by electrum which I think is remotely based on async implementation
remotely based on async implementation and you also have LDK which is lightning
and you also have LDK which is lightning development kit now I'm not sure how you
development kit now I'm not sure how you used that one is but are there any
used that one is but are there any differences in them in terms of privacy
differences in them in terms of privacy because that's the topic that we are
because that's the topic that we are tackling in this
tackling in this episode that's a good question I've
episode that's a good question I've never thought about it uh about
never thought about it uh about different privacy implications of
different privacy implications of different
different ones uh the only possibly useful thought
ones uh the only possibly useful thought I have on that is uh the guys from muty
I have on that is uh the guys from muty wallet were very focused on building a
wallet were very focused on building a privacy first lightning wallet and they
privacy first lightning wallet and they used LD K so I don't know if they did
used LD K so I don't know if they did that just because they're R Developers
that just because they're R Developers actually just probably why they did is
actually just probably why they did is because they're R Developers and it's
because they're R Developers and it's written in Rust um but it might have had
written in Rust um but it might have had a it might have been because they were
a it might have been because they were like this one's the best for privacy I
like this one's the best for privacy I don't know you'd have to ask them
don't know you'd have to ask them because I I really I don't know which
because I I really I don't know which one's the best for privacy um I think of
one's the best for privacy um I think of those a different thing that that is not
those a different thing that that is not the question at all is which one's the
the question at all is which one's the easiest to use and I think it's electrum
easiest to use and I think it's electrum because with electrum you go to
because with electrum you go to elect.org and you click download and you
elect.org and you click download and you get something that looks like an
get something that looks like an application that you can use and with
application that you can use and with the other ones if you they you don't
the other ones if you they you don't they don't even have websites you have
they don't even have websites you have to go to like their
githubsign the binaries and then know what to do with the binary um so yeah
what to do with the binary um so yeah electrum is the only one that is just
electrum is the only one that is just like you you double click the icon and a
like you you double click the icon and a lightning wallet pops up and it's got a
lightning wallet pops up and it's got a full implementation of the lightning
full implementation of the lightning Network in there so I really like that
Network in there so I really like that one yeah and Thomas is so proud of
one yeah and Thomas is so proud of it I've met him a couple of times you
it I've met him a couple of times you said you think it's based on async I
said you think it's based on async I thought he wrote the entire thing in
thought he wrote the entire thing in Python from scratch like that that's
Python from scratch like that that's what I thought he was so proud why he's
what I thought he was so proud why he's so proud of it it's because he wrote the
so proud of it it's because he wrote the entire you know he follow he he
entire you know he follow he he implemented all the bolt specs himself
implemented all the bolt specs himself in Python which is not even not even
in Python which is not even not even like that's that's insane to do that
like that's that's insane to do that that's like the stuff I do with
that's like the stuff I do with JavaScript is doing it with
JavaScript is doing it with python that's also possible maybe I I
python that's also possible maybe I I don't know maybe I misunderstood I did
don't know maybe I misunderstood I did interview him like three or four years
interview him like three or four years ago about this so that's what I remember
ago about this so that's what I remember from what he told me with trampoline
from what he told me with trampoline routing and stuff like this but maybe he
routing and stuff like this but maybe he wrote it from
wrote it from scratch yeah I think his implementation
scratch yeah I think his implementation and de Clair are the only ones to
and de Clair are the only ones to support well I don't I don't think
support well I don't I don't think that's true anymore I was about to say
that's true anymore I was about to say they're the only ones that support
they're the only ones that support trampoline routing but I yeah I think
trampoline routing but I yeah I think the other ones have added it now I'd
the other ones have added it now I'd have to check sorry I
have to check sorry I can't yeah sorry I don't know the answer
can't yeah sorry I don't know the answer to that no it's all good there there's
to that no it's all good there there's someone in the chat who's also asking
someone in the chat who's also asking something that I've been meaning to say
something that I've been meaning to say what about bolt 12 because this one has
what about bolt 12 because this one has been a major talking point in the
been a major talking point in the lightning space I remember who was it
lightning space I remember who was it from core lightning or at the time it
from core lightning or at the time it was sea lightning who was blaming L&D
was sea lightning who was blaming L&D for not working on it
for not working on it uh Rusty yeah I think it was Rusty um
uh Rusty yeah I think it was Rusty um what about Vol 12 so it was supposed to
what about Vol 12 so it was supposed to give you much better privacy and also
give you much better privacy and also allow you to have multiple reusable
allow you to have multiple reusable multiple time reusable addresses or
multiple time reusable addresses or something yeah it it definitely gives
something yeah it it definitely gives you a reusable address and that is
you a reusable address and that is pretty useful and I think well we
pretty useful and I think well we there's already been implementations of
there's already been implementations of that before um and they were really
that before um and they were really popular and now this one this one's out
popular and now this one this one's out and that's it's also having some
and that's it's also having some popularity
popularity um that I think is the real kicker I'm
um that I think is the real kicker I'm not sure that it really does improve
not sure that it really does improve your privacy all that much uh so earlier
your privacy all that much uh so earlier I think it was this year early or early
I think it was this year early or early re very recently within the last six
re very recently within the last six months I was at another conference and
months I was at another conference and and they had a hackathon and as part of
and they had a hackathon and as part of my hackathon I decided to make an atomic
my hackathon I decided to make an atomic swap tool that would swap between a bolt
swap tool that would swap between a bolt 11 payment and a bolt 12 payment so that
11 payment and a bolt 12 payment so that if your wallet didn't support bolt 12
if your wallet didn't support bolt 12 you could still do it um one of the
you could still do it um one of the things that bolt 12 is supposed to to be
things that bolt 12 is supposed to to be really good at is um hiding the
really good at is um hiding the recipient information and when I looked
recipient information and when I looked into it I was like oh great then I
into it I was like oh great then I shouldn't see a public key in there
shouldn't see a public key in there because that's the only recipient
because that's the only recipient information in a lighting invoice is
information in a lighting invoice is your public key but there is one like I
your public key but there is one like I I decoded a bolt2 invoice and there's
I decoded a bolt2 invoice and there's there's a pub key in there and I was
there's a pub key in there and I was like huh that's that's strange in what
like huh that's that's strange in what sense is it hiding the recipient's
sense is it hiding the recipient's information then uh because if you still
information then uh because if you still have a Pub Key then you know chain
have a Pub Key then you know chain alysis could still like plug that into
alysis could still like plug that into their ofac thing and and do a past
their ofac thing and and do a past failing whether it's on the on the ofac
failing whether it's on the on the ofac list um uh and once again the public key
list um uh and once again the public key is only used for information no money
is only used for information no money gets sent to it but or it's only used
gets sent to it but or it's only used for communication no money gets sent to
for communication no money gets sent to it but the thing that they say when when
it but the thing that they say when when I like talk to people about this is um
I like talk to people about this is um it's not that it hides your Pub Key it's
it's not that it hides your Pub Key it's that it hides your um network network
that it hides your um network network string so on on the lightning network uh
string so on on the lightning network uh you have a you have a network string
you have a you have a network string which is either Tor or uh an ipv4 or an
which is either Tor or uh an ipv4 or an IPv6 address that specifies where your
IPv6 address that specifies where your Note is on the network and they say if
Note is on the network and they say if you use bolt 12 then someone they can
you use bolt 12 then someone they can see your Pub Key but they don't know
see your Pub Key but they don't know what node you're on on the network but
what node you're on on the network but that's already true of Bolt 11 unless
that's already true of Bolt 11 unless you're a routing node if if you're a
you're a routing node if if you're a routing node then you then you're saying
routing node then you then you're saying here I am on the network come connect to
here I am on the network come connect to me but if you're not a routing node you
me but if you're not a routing node you don't disclose your your notes your your
don't disclose your your notes your your connection string anyway even in your
connection string anyway even in your invoice so what exactly privacy benefit
invoice so what exactly privacy benefit is there to B 12 it's not it still has a
is there to B 12 it's not it still has a public e in there and uh they say well
public e in there and uh they say well it doesn't reveal your connection string
it doesn't reveal your connection string but you would only reveal connection
but you would only reveal connection string if you're a routing note anyway
string if you're a routing note anyway in which case you're doing it you're
in which case you're doing it you're gossiping it you're publishing it so
gossiping it you're publishing it so what I don't understand the Privacy gain
what I don't understand the Privacy gain anymore uh Justin shocket has been uh
anymore uh Justin shocket has been uh he's one of the guys on Twitter I'm
he's one of the guys on Twitter I'm friends with and he's been criticizing
friends with and he's been criticizing bolt 12 for like making false claims for
bolt 12 for like making false claims for a long not B 12 but the developers
a long not B 12 but the developers behind it for making false claims and uh
behind it for making false claims and uh I'm I don't agree with him on all of
I'm I don't agree with him on all of this stuff about B 12 but uh after after
this stuff about B 12 but uh after after doing a hackathon project with it I was
doing a hackathon project with it I was like I don't I don't really think it
like I don't I don't really think it does improve your um your recipient
does improve your um your recipient privacy on the lightning Network I think
privacy on the lightning Network I think bolt 11 has really good recipient
bolt 11 has really good recipient privacy and uh and bolt 12 is just uh it
privacy and uh and bolt 12 is just uh it doesn't do what it it doesn't do what it
doesn't do what it it doesn't do what it says on the tin so sorry it but it does
says on the tin so sorry it but it does it does do the reusable thing which is
it does do the reusable thing which is which is nice like I really like that
which is nice like I really like that aspect of it
aspect of it so it's nice to have a reusable string
so it's nice to have a reusable string let me ask you a few more personal
let me ask you a few more personal questions what do you work on these days
questions what do you work on these days what keeps you
what keeps you busy uh uh this month I've been working
busy uh uh this month I've been working on my coin pool implementation um and so
on my coin pool implementation um and so that's that's what's been keeping me
that's that's what's been keeping me busy this month uh what was it last
busy this month uh what was it last month uh I recently made something
month uh I recently made something called mint market cap which is um I
called mint market cap which is um I wanted to find out how much money is on
wanted to find out how much money is on ecash mints and they don't disclose that
ecash mints and they don't disclose that information so what I did was I got uh I
information so what I did was I got uh I got the top 25 from Bitcoin mint.com and
got the top 25 from Bitcoin mint.com and then I
then I uh each one for an invoice and then I
uh each one for an invoice and then I used their invoice to get their node
used their invoice to get their node public key and since these are routing
public key and since these are routing nodes uh I knew that they were
nodes uh I knew that they were advertising um their their node on the
advertising um their their node on the on the network so I looked up their node
on the network so I looked up their node on the network and found how much money
on the network and found how much money they have in capacity and then I made
they have in capacity and then I made mint market cap which shows a list of
mint market cap which shows a list of all the uh all the all the amount of
all the uh all the all the amount of money that's uh that they have in total
money that's uh that they have in total capacity and then if you assume that the
capacity and then if you assume that the amount of money that they have is
amount of money that they have is divided 50/50 between money on their
divided 50/50 between money on their side and money that's available for
side and money that's available for outgoing then you can get an estimate of
outgoing then you can get an estimate of how much money is on ecast mins which I
how much money is on ecast mins which I thought was kind of neat because I don't
thought was kind of neat because I don't disclose that but I figured out a way to
disclose that but I figured out a way to get data it's probably not good data um
get data it's probably not good data um someone pointed out that a lot of the
someone pointed out that a lot of the mints are using strike and using uh
mints are using strike and using uh Phoenix Phoenix D the the Phoenix
Phoenix Phoenix D the the Phoenix implementation for desktops as their
implementation for desktops as their backend and so I'm including like
backend and so I'm including like hundreds of Bitcoins that are probably
hundreds of Bitcoins that are probably just used by strike and and Phoenix D
just used by strike and and Phoenix D and then they're not used for ecash so
and then they're not used for ecash so the numbers are probably way off but
the numbers are probably way off but they are numbers um so I made that um
they are numbers um so I made that um let me just go I can go to my GitHub
let me just go I can go to my GitHub repo and find out what I was working on
repo and find out what I was working on last month I forget I'm working on new
last month I forget I'm working on new projects all the time so
projects all the time so um so changes and now my internet's slow
um so changes and now my internet's slow are you still able to hear me okay yeah
are you still able to hear me okay yeah I'm able to hear you I guess there were
I'm able to hear you I guess there were some people who complained that maybe
some people who complained that maybe their moments when the audio cuts out
their moments when the audio cuts out I'm not not sure about that I did not
I'm not not sure about that I did not experience it oh I made something called
experience it oh I made something called Title Transfer app so I I did a lot of
Title Transfer app so I I did a lot of work on state chains recently or La last
work on state chains recently or La last month um and state chains are another
month um and state chains are another really cool privacy tool in Bitcoin um
really cool privacy tool in Bitcoin um that I worked on uh and I thought it
that I worked on uh and I thought it would be cool if in addition to using a
would be cool if in addition to using a state chain to transfer Bitcoin around
state chain to transfer Bitcoin around it would be cool if you could list any
it would be cool if you could list any item that you have like a banana or I
item that you have like a banana or I don't know whatever this is you could
don't know whatever this is you could list this you make a title for it and
list this you make a title for it and you just say I hereby certify that I
you just say I hereby certify that I have you know this thing and if I
have you know this thing and if I transfer this title to you using a state
transfer this title to you using a state chain then you get the same chain of
chain then you get the same chain of signatures that that a state chain gives
signatures that that a state chain gives for bitline only this would be for a
for bitline only this would be for a physical item or for a digital item so I
physical item or for a digital item so I made Title Transfer app so that you can
made Title Transfer app so that you can just sell things using the same using
just sell things using the same using the same state chain model that I that
the same state chain model that I that we that some people use for coin uh so
we that some people use for coin uh so that's that was a neat thing I also came
that's that was a neat thing I also came up with um uh a way to I I found a way
up with um uh a way to I I found a way to make it so that a state chain can't
to make it so that a state chain can't rob you um which is the current
rob you um which is the current implementation of State chains is called
implementation of State chains is called Mercury layer and it's possible for them
Mercury layer and it's possible for them to uh assist a prior so if somebody
to uh assist a prior so if somebody sends you coins on a state chain the
sends you coins on a state chain the state chain entity is responsible for
state chain entity is responsible for preventing double spends or preventing
preventing double spends or preventing the person from taking their money back
the person from taking their money back and if he's malicious he can allow a
and if he's malicious he can allow a double spend but figured out a way to
double spend but figured out a way to make it so that even if he does that you
make it so that even if he does that you still get you still get all your money
still get you still get all your money out like you don't you don't get robbed
out like you don't you don't get robbed uh and I call that insured State chains
uh and I call that insured State chains so I wrote up a specification for it and
so I wrote up a specification for it and then I made a a video at uh adopting
then I made a a video at uh adopting Bitcoin on how on how this protocol
Bitcoin on how on how this protocol works and I thought I would implement it
works and I thought I would implement it but then I fig while I was working on
but then I fig while I was working on the state chain thing I figured out how
the state chain thing I figured out how to do a coin pool and then I got
to do a coin pool and then I got distracted by that and I've been working
distracted by that and I've been working on that ever since uh so I I'll have to
on that ever since uh so I I'll have to do my uh insured State change thing some
do my uh insured State change thing some other time uh I've been doing a lot of
other time uh I've been doing a lot of stuff with Noster wallet connect um
stuff with Noster wallet connect um Noster wallet connect is a protocol for
Noster wallet connect is a protocol for communicating with wallets using the
communicating with wallets using the Noster protocol uh or yeah it's a
Noster protocol uh or yeah it's a protocol for using another protocol
protocol for using another protocol that's that's true um uh but yeah it's
that's that's true um uh but yeah it's it it it lets you basically DM your
it it it lets you basically DM your wallet um direct message your wallet a
wallet um direct message your wallet a command and say like send money to this
command and say like send money to this person or or receive money from that
person or or receive money from that person and it's nice because then you
person and it's nice because then you can have your phone in your wallet or
can have your phone in your wallet or your in your pocket and you don't have
your in your pocket and you don't have to pull it out just send it a command uh
to pull it out just send it a command uh by you know hitting a button on your
by you know hitting a button on your keyboard and it'll it'll just do the
keyboard and it'll it'll just do the thing uh so I made some tools I made a
thing uh so I made some tools I made a couple of wallets that supported it and
couple of wallets that supported it and uh I made like an interface and I made a
uh I made like an interface and I made a testing tool so the developers can test
testing tool so the developers can test their stuff against that so that's what
their stuff against that so that's what I was working on last
I was working on last month um I made something called faucet
month um I made something called faucet generator I got mad about all these uh
generator I got mad about all these uh Bitcoin testet faucets that keep on
Bitcoin testet faucets that keep on shutting down uh they they keep on like
shutting down uh they they keep on like um like they
um like they the mempool recently launched one but
the mempool recently launched one but they put a rate they put a requirement
they put a rate they put a requirement that you have to sign in with your
that you have to sign in with your GitHub account in order to get coins
GitHub account in order to get coins from their faucet which I thought was
from their faucet which I thought was stupid and a bunch of the other ones
stupid and a bunch of the other ones made it so that you can only withdraw
made it so that you can only withdraw like 2,000 STS from them which is really
like 2,000 STS from them which is really difficult for a developer to do anything
difficult for a developer to do anything if he only has 2,000 you know testet
if he only has 2,000 you know testet sets so I made my own faucet called
sets so I made my own faucet called faucet generator where you can spin up a
faucet generator where you can spin up a faucet that just has a normal send
faucet that just has a normal send button and and a balance and in a
button and and a balance and in a Bitcoin address for you to load it with
Bitcoin address for you to load it with but the nice thing is you can generate
but the nice thing is you can generate them on the fly so if you want to if you
them on the fly so if you want to if you want to give someone their own testet
want to give someone their own testet faucet you can create one that's empty
faucet you can create one that's empty and then send money from your faucet to
and then send money from your faucet to theirs and then just give them the link
theirs and then just give them the link and now they've got a faucet with no
and now they've got a faucet with no rate limits and no one else knows about
rate limits and no one else knows about it uh so I made that that was kind of
it uh so I made that that was kind of fun to make faucet
fun to make faucet generator
generator um uh what did I get I made a test I
um uh what did I get I made a test I made my own test net uh I I should have
made my own test net uh I I should have called it Su test net because there's a
called it Su test net because there's a misnaming opportunity but I just called
misnaming opportunity but I just called it uh testnet launcher uh so this I got
it uh testnet launcher uh so this I got mad at this one because well it was
mad at this one because well it was actually the same issue that led me to
actually the same issue that led me to make the faucet generator I couldn't get
make the faucet generator I couldn't get I couldn't get testet coins on a uh from
I couldn't get testet coins on a uh from the faucets and I was like well I'll
the faucets and I was like well I'll just make my own testet where I can
just make my own testet where I can generate coins just by clicking a button
generate coins just by clicking a button and then and then so I did I made my own
and then and then so I did I made my own testet that understands the rules of
testet that understands the rules of Bitcoin script and uh it uses the same
Bitcoin script and uh it uses the same transaction validity rules as Bitcoin um
transaction validity rules as Bitcoin um but you can just generate coins by
but you can just generate coins by clicking a button it generates 50 coins
clicking a button it generates 50 coins every time you click it and so then you
every time you click it and so then you have no need for uh for a faucet you you
have no need for uh for a faucet you you just you just make your own coins and uh
just you just make your own coins and uh and use my test net so there's that uh
and use my test net so there's that uh is that enough I I work on stuff all the
is that enough I I work on stuff all the time and it's just I constantly changing
time and it's just I constantly changing to new projects so uh it's hard to say
to new projects so uh it's hard to say when you want me to stop I have no idea
when you want me to stop I have no idea what enough even means in this context
what enough even means in this context like there's a lot that you're doing
like there's a lot that you're doing you're all over the place I think State
you're all over the place I think State chains are super under rated I did
chains are super under rated I did interview the guys from Mercury layer a
interview the guys from Mercury layer a few
few times and of course most of the stuff
times and of course most of the stuff that they said went over my head because
that they said went over my head because I don't really understand how it works
I don't really understand how it works but it's really cool it's like this
but it's really cool it's like this layer where you transfer utxo
layer where you transfer utxo ownership yeah you transfer the private
ownership yeah you transfer the private key which is a really strange idea it
key which is a really strange idea it sounds awful but it's so magical um
sounds awful but it's so magical um after after I make after I finish my
after after I make after I finish my coin pool implementation I want to make
coin pool implementation I want to make a prediction Market and so I figured out
a prediction Market and so I figured out a way to do a I think I figured out a
a way to do a I think I figured out a way to do a prediction Market on bitcoin
way to do a prediction Market on bitcoin some of my ideas I have to I have to
some of my ideas I have to I have to implement them to see if they work and
implement them to see if they work and this is I think I'm pretty sure this one
this is I think I'm pretty sure this one will work but it's pretty cool and it'll
will work but it's pretty cool and it'll be really hard to build um but yeah I
be really hard to build um but yeah I think I figured out a way to do a
think I figured out a way to do a prediction Market similar to predix or
prediction Market similar to predix or um what's that one that's on ethereum
um what's that one that's on ethereum that everyone uses poly Market poly
that everyone uses poly Market poly Market yeah I figure out a way to make
Market yeah I figure out a way to make something like poly Market but make it
something like poly Market but make it work on bitcoin without needing a soft
work on bitcoin without needing a soft work and the only new trust assumption
work and the only new trust assumption is the same one poly Market has uh which
is the same one poly Market has uh which is that Oracle honesty if the if the
is that Oracle honesty if the if the Oracle who says you know the Packers
Oracle who says you know the Packers beat the Saints lies then uh you can
beat the Saints lies then uh you can lose money that way um but that's the
lose money that way um but that's the only new trust assumption added uh
only new trust assumption added uh whereas other methods of adding
whereas other methods of adding prediction markets on bitcoin they
prediction markets on bitcoin they usually have custody so I figured out a
usually have custody so I figured out a way to do it without um without custody
way to do it without um without custody but unless you count the Oracle as a
but unless you count the Oracle as a kind of custodian because you can just
kind of custodian because you can just you know send the money to the wrong
you know send the money to the wrong person and that's kind of what a
person and that's kind of what a custodian
custodian does uh yeah so that's a that's
does uh yeah so that's a that's something but that the reason I bring
something but that the reason I bring that up is because that it relies on the
that up is because that it relies on the fact that with a state chain you can
fact that with a state chain you can transfer ownership of a of a private key
transfer ownership of a of a private key in a secure way and so what I do is I
in a secure way and so what I do is I make it so that that private key is the
make it so that that private key is the recipient of coins that have not yet
recipient of coins that have not yet been sent but they can be sent depending
been sent but they can be sent depending on the outcome of an oracle uh you know
on the outcome of an oracle uh you know thing so that that allows you to have uh
thing so that that allows you to have uh to have coins that will be yours if you
to have coins that will be yours if you win the if you win the um you know the
win the if you win the um you know the if you if you guess correctly on the
if you if you guess correctly on the prediction Market but because these
prediction Market but because these coins aren't in the address yet and it's
coins aren't in the address yet and it's a state chain address uh you can
a state chain address uh you can transfer them before as long as it's
transfer them before as long as it's before the event has occurred you can
before the event has occurred you can transfer ownership of that private key
transfer ownership of that private key to other people and uh and thus sell
to other people and uh and thus sell your you know your right to um to take
your you know your right to um to take away money if if you got the uh if you
away money if if you got the uh if you guessed correctly on the outcome of the
guessed correctly on the outcome of the event um so that's a that's a prediction
event um so that's a that's a prediction market so I want to make that uh and
market so I want to make that uh and that uses State chains I don't know it's
that uses State chains I don't know it's just so just so much to build let me you
just so just so much to build let me you want to see can am I able to share my
want to see can am I able to share my screen and you guys would actually see
screen and you guys would actually see it on here you should be able to okay
it on here you should be able to okay I'm going to show you my list of my
I'm going to show you my list of my backlog of projects I get like five
backlog of projects I get like five ideas a day uh and and some of them if
ideas a day uh and and some of them if they're if they're a good idea I write
they're if they're a good idea I write them down um so let me share my screen
them down um so let me share my screen can you see
can you see it you see a document here I see it now
it you see a document here I see it now just let me adjust
just let me adjust for the live stream video because I I
for the live stream video because I I basically cut your
basically cut your portrait show to people okay so this is
portrait show to people okay so this is like a Google doc it's a Google doc I
like a Google doc it's a Google doc I have called project ideas or to-do list
have called project ideas or to-do list and it is Eight Pages of different ideas
and it is Eight Pages of different ideas I've had uh for Bitcoin software that I
I've had uh for Bitcoin software that I can make and you know each of these
can make and you know each of these things someday that one's a really long
things someday that one's a really long idea
idea um you know some of one day I will make
um you know some of one day I will make each of these things um we'll see but I
each of these things um we'll see but I get I get ideas much faster than I can
get I get ideas much faster than I can create them so I'm up to 49 ideas in my
create them so I'm up to 49 ideas in my backlog right now and uh just it's just
backlog right now and uh just it's just a constant flood of of
a constant flood of of ideas uh so yeah I'm always moving on to
ideas uh so yeah I'm always moving on to new
new projects well that's a good problem to
projects well that's a good problem to have yeah I love it I wouldn't have it
have yeah I love it I wouldn't have it any other
any other way I know a bunch of guys in the space
way I know a bunch of guys in the space who are reing on the same idea for
who are reing on the same idea for almost a decade and it's getting stale
almost a decade and it's getting stale it's getting boring so it's it's really
it's getting boring so it's it's really refreshing to have people like you
refreshing to have people like you always come up with something new
always come up with something new and different not necessarily new but
and different not necessarily new but different like I'm pretty sure Paul
different like I'm pretty sure Paul storts he has been the guy who tried to
storts he has been the guy who tried to bring prediction markets to bitcoin for
bring prediction markets to bitcoin for longer than a decade I'm not sure
longer than a decade I'm not sure exactly why he hasn't but I'm pretty
exactly why he hasn't but I'm pretty sure he would be interested to hear your
sure he would be interested to hear your idea yeah he I I think he wanted um he
idea yeah he I I think he wanted um he wanted he wanted to build Drive chains
wanted he wanted to build Drive chains so that he could build a prediction
so that he could build a prediction Market
Market um I don't think he
um I don't think he thinks that I suspect if I shared my
thinks that I suspect if I shared my idea with him of doing it with the state
idea with him of doing it with the state chain um he would I think he would be
chain um he would I think he would be like this is stupid it if you don't he
like this is stupid it if you don't he would probably say if you're not paying
would probably say if you're not paying miners to run this project for you then
miners to run this project for you then miners will kill it um they will they
miners will kill it um they will they will refuse to mine the transactions or
will refuse to mine the transactions or something and then uh that's why we need
something and then uh that's why we need to do it on Drive chains that's what I
to do it on Drive chains that's what I suspect Paul would say if I if I told
suspect Paul would say if I if I told him about my idea just be like well if
him about my idea just be like well if it doesn't pay miners it's a dumb idea
it doesn't pay miners it's a dumb idea well I hope he listens and he's going to
well I hope he listens and he's going to give you feedback I was also going to
give you feedback I was also going to ask you about your music career because
ask you about your music career because there is something related to that going
there is something related to that going on you have a handful of songs that I've
on you have a handful of songs that I've listened to I think my favorite is your
listened to I think my favorite is your cover of La Bamba but adapted to the
cover of La Bamba but adapted to the Bitcoin context you changed the lyrics
Bitcoin context you changed the lyrics that one's your favorite that was my
that one's your favorite that was my first one and I was just lying in bed
first one and I was just lying in bed one day and I thought of I thought I was
one day and I thought of I thought I was I think I was listening to the song and
I think I was listening to the song and I was like oh that'd be funny if I
I was like oh that'd be funny if I changed it to the Bitcoin uh so I just
changed it to the Bitcoin uh so I just sitting in my bed I just put my
sitting in my bed I just put my earphones up to my mouth and started
earphones up to my mouth and started singing and I recorded myself and
singing and I recorded myself and released it as a as a single uh and that
released it as a as a single uh and that launched my music career which currently
launched my music career which currently spans five I think five songs uh and one
spans five I think five songs uh and one concert I did a concert in uh in Brazil
concert I did a concert in uh in Brazil uh at uh what satson so that was fun um
uh at uh what satson so that was fun um um yeah uh perhaps more will come but
um yeah uh perhaps more will come but I've been so I've been so focused on
I've been so I've been so focused on coding lately I haven't even well I have
coding lately I haven't even well I have thought of a couple new songs maybe I
thought of a couple new songs maybe I should record those I thought of
should record those I thought of um uh lightning Network killed monero's
um uh lightning Network killed monero's use case lightning Network killed
use case lightning Network killed monero's use case encryption on the
monero's use case encryption on the monetary
monetary base and then I would do you know I I
base and then I would do you know I I only came up with that part but I'd need
only came up with that part but I'd need to write lyrics for all this all the
to write lyrics for all this all the verses I that would be fun I think it
verses I that would be fun I think it sounds better if it's lightning has
sounds better if it's lightning has killed monero's use case because it has
killed monero's use case because it has the same Cadence you know yeah if you
the same Cadence you know yeah if you say lightning Network killed it it it's
say lightning Network killed it it it's too much too many
too much too many syllables it is too many syllables but I
syllables it is too many syllables but I don't putting in a a perfect tense there
don't putting in a a perfect tense there is also strange to my ears I don't know
is also strange to my ears I don't know maybe it certainly needs workshopped so
maybe it certainly needs workshopped so I only have those two
I only have those two lines but but yeah I sang that for some
lines but but yeah I sang that for some of the guys at the co-working space here
of the guys at the co-working space here and they thought it was
and they thought it was hilarious so where can people find you
hilarious so where can people find you over the next few months which
over the next few months which conferences are you attending what are
conferences are you attending what are you going to speak about well I'm I'm
you going to speak about well I'm I'm going to bitcoin plus plus fora and I
going to bitcoin plus plus fora and I will be talking there about my coin pool
will be talking there about my coin pool implementation I will I'm hoping to do a
implementation I will I'm hoping to do a demo of of it of the software and then
demo of of it of the software and then um an explanation of how it works and
um an explanation of how it works and then we'll do a live coding session
then we'll do a live coding session where we'll actually make the core
where we'll actually make the core functionality together uh I'm hoping
functionality together uh I'm hoping wallet developers will come and learn
wallet developers will come and learn how to do this so we can integrate coin
how to do this so we can integrate coin pools into Bitcoin wallets so they offer
pools into Bitcoin wallets so they offer a number of advantages over including
a number of advantages over including over the lightning Network they're
over the lightning Network they're faster a coin pool is faster than the
faster a coin pool is faster than the lightning Network because you don't have
lightning Network because you don't have any routing you don't have to do pathf
any routing you don't have to do pathf finding on a on a coin pool um it's
finding on a on a coin pool um it's cheaper because inside the pool all
cheaper because inside the pool all transactions are free um whereas on
transactions are free um whereas on Lightning fees are but they they're
Lightning fees are but they they're still there and so to coin pool you can
still there and so to coin pool you can have absolutely free
have absolutely free transactions um yeah it's also I I mine
transactions um yeah it's also I I mine is asynchronous so you can you can send
is asynchronous so you can you can send coins to somebody without needing them
coins to somebody without needing them to give you something first so in in
to give you something first so in in Bitcoin normally someone has to give you
Bitcoin normally someone has to give you their Bitcoin address or they have to
their Bitcoin address or they have to give you a lightning invoice if you to
give you a lightning invoice if you to send them money online you create the
send them money online you create the like a packet of money for them and you
like a packet of money for them and you send it to them and then they can redeem
send it to them and then they can redeem it on this coin pool uh which is great I
it on this coin pool uh which is great I I really that's my favorite thing about
I really that's my favorite thing about it is the
it is the asynchronicity um so that so that's what
asynchronicity um so that so that's what I'm going to be talking about there and
I'm going to be talking about there and I'll explaining how that works doing the
I'll explaining how that works doing the demo and then we'll do a live coding
demo and then we'll do a live coding session um the next one that I'm
session um the next one that I'm supposed to be at is in May and I have
supposed to be at is in May and I have not confirmed my attendance at it yet
not confirmed my attendance at it yet but uh there are two conferences that
but uh there are two conferences that want me to go to them in May one of them
want me to go to them in May one of them is called Bitcoin 2025 and it's in Las
is called Bitcoin 2025 and it's in Las Vegas and the other one is in Austin
Vegas and the other one is in Austin Texas and it's a Bitcoin Plus+
Texas and it's a Bitcoin Plus+ um so I'll probably go to both of them
um so I'll probably go to both of them but I haven't yet confirmed my
but I haven't yet confirmed my attendance uh I don't know the rest of
attendance uh I don't know the rest of the ones I'll be going to there's one in
the ones I'll be going to there's one in Argentina that I'd like to go to I would
Argentina that I'd like to go to I would like to go to satson again my favorite
like to go to satson again my favorite in Argentina or something else it well I
in Argentina or something else it well I want to go to that too but there there
want to go to that too but there there is another there's supposed to be
is another there's supposed to be another one the guy the guy who started
another one the guy the guy who started La bitom wants to do another one now at
La bitom wants to do another one now at least he told me he did because he said
least he told me he did because he said that he was upset that La bitcon now
that he was upset that La bitcon now does other altcoins it's like Bitcoin
does other altcoins it's like Bitcoin plus a bunch of other stuff so he wants
plus a bunch of other stuff so he wants to do he wants to redo he wants to make
to do he wants to redo he wants to make a new conference that is once again
a new conference that is once again Bitcoin only uh and I think like it's
Bitcoin only uh and I think like it's easier to do that now um maybe maybe for
easier to do that now um maybe maybe for like for a few years there it was really
like for a few years there it was really hard to be Bitcoin only but now it's
hard to be Bitcoin only but now it's easier again so he wants to do that and
easier again so he wants to do that and he invited me to be one speaker at that
he invited me to be one speaker at that but I haven't heard anything else and
but I haven't heard anything else and that's I think he said it was going to
that's I think he said it was going to be in April uh so I think I would know
be in April uh so I think I would know something by now um yeah so maybe that
something by now um yeah so maybe that might not happen those that's as far out
might not happen those that's as far out as I've planned and and I haven't even
as I've planned and and I haven't even finished finalizing my plans for May I
finished finalizing my plans for May I don't like to plan more than three
don't like to plan more than three months in advance so that's why I
months in advance so that's why I haven't confirmed my attendance for
haven't confirmed my attendance for those May conferences yet because I want
those May conferences yet because I want to wait till February when you travel to
to wait till February when you travel to so many conferences and you have
so many conferences and you have commitments to do presentations and I
commitments to do presentations and I guess you also try to open some sort of
guess you also try to open some sort of school where you're teaching some basic
school where you're teaching some basic stuff about how to use Bitcoin from the
stuff about how to use Bitcoin from the command line and construct construct
command line and construct construct transactions and stuff when you have
transactions and stuff when you have time to actually do work when you have
time to actually do work when you have all of these other
all of these other commitments well uh I don't really do
commitments well uh I don't really do the I haven't done the workshop since
the I haven't done the workshop since November I I stopped in December because
November I I stopped in December because of holidays and then I just haven't
of holidays and then I just haven't restarted again so that has taken one
restarted again so that has taken one load of work off the table and as for
load of work off the table and as for the conferences I'm almost always doing
the conferences I'm almost always doing a workshop at a conference um and so I'm
a workshop at a conference um and so I'm it's it's still work like for me to for
it's it's still work like for me to for me to prepare for the conference I have
me to prepare for the conference I have to make the software that I'm gonna
to make the software that I'm gonna present and so uh so still work um yeah
present and so uh so still work um yeah it's it
it's it facilitates rarely do I have a deadline
facilitates rarely do I have a deadline on my projects the only time I have a
on my projects the only time I have a deadline is when I have something that
deadline is when I have something that I'm supposed to present at a conference
I'm supposed to present at a conference and uh that's that's nice uh it there
and uh that's that's nice uh it there are benefits to having deadlines like
are benefits to having deadlines like they motivate you to get work done even
they motivate you to get work done even when you don't want to work on it which
when you don't want to work on it which is hard for me because normally I just
is hard for me because normally I just do whatever I want and if I don't want
do whatever I want and if I don't want to work on something I'm just like I
to work on something I'm just like I it's not going to do it but if I told
it's not going to do it but if I told someone I will do this for your work for
someone I will do this for your work for your uh conference that I kind of feel
your uh conference that I kind of feel more obligated oh you're you still have
more obligated oh you're you still have a lot of energy which I admire like the
a lot of energy which I admire like the Cadence with which you speak and the
Cadence with which you speak and the enthusiasm they speak for themselves you
enthusiasm they speak for themselves you know oh thank you and you lost some
know oh thank you and you lost some weight congratulations on that thank you
weight congratulations on that thank you I'm glad you noticed I've been going to
I'm glad you noticed I've been going to the gym daily for uh since December 30th
the gym daily for uh since December 30th uh doing two hours swimming and I cut
uh doing two hours swimming and I cut down my calorie intake to 1300 a day and
down my calorie intake to 1300 a day and it's having an effect check it out check
it's having an effect check it out check it out and I'm thinner than I was I'm
it out and I'm thinner than I was I'm not thin yet but I'm thinner so it's
not thin yet but I'm thinner so it's it's coming
it's coming along yeah yeah it it's good to see how
along yeah yeah it it's good to see how many people in Bitcoin are improving
many people in Bitcoin are improving their lives even in small ways you know
their lives even in small ways you know because it's so easy to forget about
because it's so easy to forget about yourself and just focus on
yourself and just focus on work I've actually gained weight since
work I've actually gained weight since the last time but I'm not sure if it's
the last time but I'm not sure if it's fat or muscle because I I go to the gym
fat or muscle because I I go to the gym but I don't do cardio so yeah anyway
but I don't do cardio so yeah anyway swiming counts is cardio right
swiming counts is cardio right what counts as cardio swimming swimming
what counts as cardio swimming swimming yeah yeah okay it's a pretty good
yeah yeah okay it's a pretty good workout I should try that it's just that
workout I should try that it's just that it's winter here so it's not very nice
it's winter here so it's not very nice to especially when you have long hair
to especially when you have long hair but that's long hair people problems I
but that's long hair people problems I feel sorry for asking you this so late
feel sorry for asking you this so late into the episode but I've turned this
into the episode but I've turned this into sort of a habit maybe I'll just
into sort of a habit maybe I'll just make a compilation of people answering
make a compilation of people answering this question but what do you think
this question but what do you think about increasing the block size of
about increasing the block size of Bitcoin at any point for the purpose of
Bitcoin at any point for the purpose of just making it easier for people to
just making it easier for people to onboard layer twos in a non-custodial
onboard layer twos in a non-custodial way like we have much faster internet
way like we have much faster internet than we did in 2017 bandwidth is cheaper
than we did in 2017 bandwidth is cheaper storage is cheaper for the same amount
storage is cheaper for the same amount of money that you would spend on let's
of money that you would spend on let's say a 1 tbyte SSD back in 2017 now you
say a 1 tbyte SSD back in 2017 now you get a four terabyte one so do you think
get a four terabyte one so do you think there is ever a point where it makes
there is ever a point where it makes sense to do that or do you think we're
sense to do that or do you think we're stuck
stuck to I guess we're culturally in love with
to I guess we're culturally in love with having these small blocks and even if
having these small blocks and even if there's demand for it it will never
there's demand for it it will never happen because it requires a hard
happen because it requires a hard Fork but I think you can do it with a
Fork but I think you can do it with a soft Fork so uh we managed to fit a
soft Fork so uh we managed to fit a block size increase or to get a block
block size increase or to get a block size increase into Bitcoin when we did
size increase into Bitcoin when we did segwit and we increased it by 4X at the
segwit and we increased it by 4X at the time uh I would like to do that again
time uh I would like to do that again and increase it by 6 16x let's do a 16x
and increase it by 6 16x let's do a 16x soft Fork block size increase 128
soft Fork block size increase 128 megabytes sure create a new witness
megabytes sure create a new witness field and uh call it witness to and you
field and uh call it witness to and you can you can put you can put stuff in
can you can put you can put stuff in there and because it's a soft Fork um
there and because it's a soft Fork um it's opted in if you if you don't want
it's opted in if you if you don't want the block size increase just keep
the block size increase just keep running the old uh keep running the old
running the old uh keep running the old software and you and you won't see
software and you and you won't see whatever's in witness 2 so that's my
whatever's in witness 2 so that's my that's my proposal and I think one thing
that's my proposal and I think one thing I think that would be good for is
I think that would be good for is inscriptions um you put your
inscriptions um you put your inscriptions in witness to and uh then
inscriptions in witness to and uh then people people who want them can just
people people who want them can just have have that extra data there and
have have that extra data there and people who don't will just not download
people who don't will just not download the new software and then then more
the new software and then then more people more people get what they want so
people more people get what they want so that's my yeah I'm in favor of a block
that's my yeah I'm in favor of a block size increase but I want to do it as
size increase but I want to do it as another software like we did with segue
another software like we did with segue so basically to have another witness
so basically to have another witness side where you put this
side where you put this data yeah you can put any data you want
data yeah you can put any data you want but I imagine it would be well actually
but I imagine it would be well actually inscriptions aren't really popular
inscriptions aren't really popular popular anymore maybe this idea would
popular anymore maybe this idea would have been more popular if I said it two
have been more popular if I said it two years ago um but yeah I'm saying it
years ago um but yeah I'm saying it now okay but is this
now okay but is this prunable yeah you just don't you just
prunable yeah you just don't you just don't download the witness 2
don't download the witness 2 Data so would you say that these
Data so would you say that these transactions are less valuable than the
transactions are less valuable than the other ones because they're going to get
other ones because they're going to get stored by a smaller amount of
stored by a smaller amount of nodes I would say they're less valuable
nodes I would say they're less valuable but uh if you you apply the subjective
but uh if you you apply the subjective theory of value my opinion on
theory of value my opinion on something's value doesn't matter it's
something's value doesn't matter it's just whether the market thinks uh it's
just whether the market thinks uh it's whether the market thinks the state the
whether the market thinks the state the you know that this stuff is valuable
you know that this stuff is valuable that that determines its you know
that that determines its you know monetary um price so if other if if
monetary um price so if other if if somebody put something in witness to
somebody put something in witness to that people wanted to buy uh that would
that people wanted to buy uh that would be valuable to those people and uh and
be valuable to those people and uh and that that's then you just let the market
that that's then you just let the market decide I'm all forgiving people options
decide I'm all forgiving people options I'm really glad options exist and uh
I'm really glad options exist and uh Whenever there are fewer options I want
Whenever there are fewer options I want to make more of
to make more of them that's beautiful you should put
them that's beautiful you should put that on a t-shirt but like make it
that on a t-shirt but like make it shorter so it's easy to read options are
shorter so it's easy to read options are good options are
good options are good you should sell that in your shop
good you should sell that in your shop or something put it on
or something put it on shopster yeah I could I could when I was
shopster yeah I could I could when I was doing my workshops I was selling them on
doing my workshops I was selling them on shopster I think I was the only uh I was
shopster I think I was the only uh I was the only educator with with a DNM DNM
the only educator with with a DNM DNM for uh workshops to buy my workshops on
for uh workshops to buy my workshops on on a dark net
on a dark net Market well that's the way it should be
Market well that's the way it should be right you should not know who your
right you should not know who your students are and you should not know
students are and you should not know where the money comes from I also noed
where the money comes from I also noed that all of my workshops were also
that all of my workshops were also available for free so if you if you go
available for free so if you if you go to my website you can still buy a
to my website you can still buy a workshop but every link says uh you
workshop but every link says uh you either click here to buy it for I think
either click here to buy it for I think it's $5 dollar per Workshop or click
it's $5 dollar per Workshop or click here to get it for free then it just
here to get it for free then it just takes you to the YouTube link see it's
takes you to the YouTube link see it's exact same thing if if you buy it all it
exact same thing if if you buy it all it does is send you a YouTube
does is send you a YouTube link you're just
link you're just circumventing this idea that people will
circumventing this idea that people will pirate this and put it on tour and so
pirate this and put it on tour and so you're like why why B just get it from
you're like why why B just get it from my source no I I just I thought it would
my source no I I just I thought it would a I thought it would be funny to have uh
a I thought it would be funny to have uh to have something that says like you can
to have something that says like you can buy this or you can get the exact same
buy this or you can get the exact same thing for free right here I thought it'd
thing for free right here I thought it'd be funny and sometimes humor motivates
be funny and sometimes humor motivates me to do to do things uh but there's a
me to do to do things uh but there's a second reason which is that I like
second reason which is that I like information to be free want I want
information to be free want I want people to take my workshops even if they
people to take my workshops even if they can't afford them uh so I made them only
can't afford them uh so I made them only $5 a piece so that more people could
$5 a piece so that more people could afford them and I was just like why
afford them and I was just like why don't I just make them available for
don't I just make them available for free for anyone who can afford it so
free for anyone who can afford it so that's what I did and uh so any of your
that's what I did and uh so any of your listeners if you want to do a workshop
listeners if you want to do a workshop go to my website supertest net.org you
go to my website supertest net.org you can find them there and you can you can
can find them there and you can you can click either the button that sends me
click either the button that sends me five bucks or you can click the button
five bucks or you can click the button that gives them for free super testnet
that gives them for free super testnet I'm a huge fan of your work I recommend
I'm a huge fan of your work I recommend people to follow you it's supercore
people to follow you it's supercore testet on Twitter and I think it's super
testet on Twitter and I think it's super space testnet on noer I'm not sure about
space testnet on noer I'm not sure about that but that's how you get tagged when
that but that's how you get tagged when I type your
I type your name where else do you have a presence
name where else do you have a presence supertest net.org it's my website and
supertest net.org it's my website and you can find all the links there on
you can find all the links there on YouTube I'm highlevel Bitcoin and uh I
YouTube I'm highlevel Bitcoin and uh I release demo videos of my latest
release demo videos of my latest software there um on telegram I'm super
software there um on telegram I'm super test net all one word so it's weird on
test net all one word so it's weird on Noster there's a space on telegram or on
Noster there's a space on telegram or on telegram there's nothing uh separating
telegram there's nothing uh separating the two words and then there's uh and on
the two words and then there's uh and on Twitter there's uh underscore uh
Twitter there's uh underscore uh different on every platform that's good
different on every platform that's good marketing um what else I don't remember
marketing um what else I don't remember what else let me go check my website and
what else let me go check my website and see what else I've got do you ever ask
see what else I've got do you ever ask people for
people for money well uh I sell stuff for money no
money well uh I sell stuff for money no that's not what I mean because people
that's not what I mean because people can create fake accounts with the
can create fake accounts with the underscore on telegram or something and
underscore on telegram or something and pretend it's you and ask for money you
pretend it's you and ask for money you know yeah that actually happened to me
know yeah that actually happened to me with someone who used the one instead of
with someone who used the one instead of the L in my
the L in my name okay I think I reported them uh
name okay I think I reported them uh yeah you I I don't think I have enough
yeah you I I don't think I have enough followers for that yet I think you they
followers for that yet I think you they they start targeting you and you get
they start targeting you and you get like 15,000 followers and I've only got
like 15,000 followers and I've only got like 8,000 so no that's not how it works
like 8,000 so no that's not how it works oh okay what what's the metric
oh okay what what's the metric then I do have my suspicions because
then I do have my suspicions because this happened to me twice and one time
this happened to me twice and one time they actually were able to extract some
they actually were able to extract some money from someone but I think they come
money from someone but I think they come to conferences and they observe you know
to conferences and they observe you know they look at you and they see who you're
they look at you and they see who you're interacting with and who really trusts
interacting with and who really trusts you because the guy who actually got
you because the guy who actually got scammed and sent money and I feel
scammed and sent money and I feel humbled you know I realized okay this
humbled you know I realized okay this guy trusted me this much that he was
guy trusted me this much that he was going to send money without asking
going to send money without asking questions without even calling me or
questions without even calling me or something but that guy I mean I only
something but that guy I mean I only hang out with him at conferences we
hang out with him at conferences we don't interact on Twitter or anything so
don't interact on Twitter or anything so I guess it's social engineered in a way
I guess it's social engineered in a way so that they look they see oh this guy
so that they look they see oh this guy looks popular look he's talking to this
looks popular look he's talking to this guy maybe that he's Rich I'm just going
guy maybe that he's Rich I'm just going to pretend that I'm him and see where
to pretend that I'm him and see where this goes because there there was no way
this goes because there there was no way to connect the two of us the guy who got
to connect the two of us the guy who got scammed and myself just to make it clear
scammed and myself just to make it clear for everyone if I ever want any money
for everyone if I ever want any money what I'll do is I will pretend to be
what I'll do is I will pretend to be Vlad and then I will ask you to send
Vlad and then I will ask you to send Vlad money exactly so if someone does
Vlad money exactly so if someone does that it's me and you can send you can
that it's me and you can send you can feel free knowing it's no I'm just
feel free knowing it's no I'm just kidding make me Rich
there you go did you find your
go did you find your sources oh yeah it's the ones I gave uh
sources oh yeah it's the ones I gave uh it was uh my telegram my Twitter my nost
it was uh my telegram my Twitter my nost and my YouTube so they're also if you
and my YouTube so they're also if you just go to super tn.org and click social
just go to super tn.org and click social they're listed all right there right and
they're listed all right there right and you've asked me directly and I will do
you've asked me directly and I will do this to put the CH analysis video in the
this to put the CH analysis video in the description thank you
description thank you I also put your Social Links any
I also put your Social Links any anything anything else or is that does
anything anything else or is that does that wrap does that wrap it up any more
that wrap does that wrap it up any more questions from the audience so my real
questions from the audience so my real shame I don't have any questions of
shame I don't have any questions of myself and there's someone who just said
myself and there's someone who just said in the chat I'm tinkering with BDK
in the chat I'm tinkering with BDK tonight I'm not sure what BDK is Bitcoin
tonight I'm not sure what BDK is Bitcoin development kit yeah that's what it is I
development kit yeah that's what it is I haven't tinkered with it um but it's I
haven't tinkered with it um but it's I think it's sounds good I like developer
think it's sounds good I like developer kits or actually I don't even use
kits or actually I don't even use developer kits but I think they're
developer kits but I think they're they're great for people who like them
they're great for people who like them so good on you try it out let me know
so good on you try it out let me know what you think I didn't I don't know why
what you think I didn't I don't know why You' let me know I don't have anything
You' let me know I don't have anything to do with it but in case you want to
to do with it but in case you want to let me know thank you to the 1,400
let me know thank you to the 1,400 people who watch this on live stream
people who watch this on live stream it's really cool I hope it was 1,400
it's really cool I hope it was 1,400 because Twitter reports I guess everyone
because Twitter reports I guess everyone who joins but doesn't count who actually
who joins but doesn't count who actually stays so those are the people who
stays so those are the people who clicked I'm not sure if they stayed but
clicked I'm not sure if they stayed but I do hope that they did and also thanks
I do hope that they did and also thanks to to the sponsors once again layer 2
to to the sponsors once again layer 2 lab craa ci. no ones and
lab craa ci. no ones and huddling thank you super testet for your
huddling thank you super testet for your time and everything that you do I love
time and everything that you do I love your energy and I love your projects and
your energy and I love your projects and I look forward to seeing you in person
I look forward to seeing you in person at some conference see you soon bye- bye
at some conference see you soon bye- bye everybody
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