The conversation explores the necessity of shifting from a focus on what we don't want to actively defining and building what we do want, emphasizing the importance of aligning actions with core values, fostering local and regenerative systems, and cultivating deeper relationships and trust, both online and offline.
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It's a lot harder to think about what we
do want than what we don't want. But
that's the necessary step. I think it's
about at the individual level rather
than saying I don't need to look at my
phone saying what are the things that I
want to be paying attention to and why
and how can I replace this unhealthy
habit with that healthier habit? How can
I reconnect to the things that I value?
Start by getting clear on the values and
how those values translate into actions
and actually replacing the action with
an action that actually aligns with the
values even if it's on a small level. at
the bigger scale it's difficult how do
we actually get these ideas into places
of power at this crucial moment but it's
also I think about not just imagining
alternatives but actually trying to
demonstrate alternatives in the real
world even if it's on the small scale.
So actually creating lived experiments
of the things that we want that actually
reflect our values and growing those
experiments and involving other people
in those experiments. So if people can
see and experience different kinds of
values in action. I think for me it's
about living it and being able to grow
those experiments until they're able to
showcase on a bigger scale what a
different kind of system would look like.
Welcome to episode 36 of Humans on the
Loop. I'm Michael Garfield and this is a
transdisciplinary investigation of
wisdom and agency in an age of magical
technologies. In the last episode, my
conversation with CTen explored value
capture when our scoring systems define
what we care about and ultimately our
identities. In this episode, we push
deeper into this inquiry with Andrea
Faras, Barcelonabased researcher and
builder whose guiding mission is to
support the transition to a regenerative
civilization, crafting information
ecosystems that reimagine critical
social systems like knowledge creation
and resource allocation. But her path to
this life required some serious
unlearning. We invite you to ask the
same questions she did, and we do in
this conversation. When I decouple from
the desires I've identified with, what
is worth taking their place? How do we
design and adopt technologies from this
new more spacious identity? How does the
local determination of plural value help
us restore necessary context to human
scale decisionmaking? And how do we
navigate the tensions between the
placeful realm of community and the
placeless realm of global coordination?
Where do we need friction in our digital
lives? And how can ecology and bio
regionalism inspire visions for a better
web? What does it mean to be local to an
idea or a narrative? And how does that
cyber locality interface with geographic
locality? Where do we want universal
translation? And where do we want to
preserve plurality? Taking root in two
of Andrea's essays, we riff on her
journey out of healthcare product design
and technology and her growing
disillusionment with the tech world's
prevailing approach to solving real
human problems by treating the body and
the planet as if these are machines from
which we can extract optimal
performance. We talk about how to care
for the processes that actually create
life and what it means to enact
regenerative principles to personal and
collective health, technology, and
economy. One takeaway from this dialogue
is that the bio regional movement and
the best parts of web 3 are like yoga
for entire societies, refocusing our
collective attention on how we exist and
move through space. Before we begin, I
invite you to join me on June 23rd and
25th for Transcendence in the Age of AI
at the Weirdo Sphere online learning
platform, where we'll host a watch party
for Steven Spielberg's 2001 film AI and
Chase it with a deepcut conversation
between myself and two wonderful writers
and filmmakers, Weird Studies co-host JF
Martell and Joel Guns of McGuffin Media.
If you've been around for a while, you
know that every conversation I have with
JF is solid gold. And Joel's roots in
the work of Alfred Hitchcock and David
Lynch will undoubtedly contribute the
secret sauce for a tasty dish of a
conversation on how to live in our age
of accelerating weirdness. Founding
members on Substack and Patreon can join
for free. As always, find registration
info as well as an extensive rabbit hole
for the resources Andrea and I mention
in this episode in the show notes. And
of course, for more, be sure to hit
subscribe so you get all of the other
marvelous conversations. I have already
recorded an essays I have in draft,
including a series on the science of
world models for the AI capabilities and
alignment consensus project, a series on
sovereign collective intelligence and
the living web with my colleagues at
Atlas Research, and a series on the new
scientific and philosophical horizons of
the UFO phenomenon. And with that,
thanks for listening and enjoy this
conversation with Andrea Faras. You
>> I don't know where we'll cut in here,
but I went to this monthly AI salon here
in Santa Fe last night to see some
friends present. It was real nice. They
had an all female speaking roster last
night. You got three really different
perspectives. The host Kurt Dodie, he
made some claim in his news roundup at
the beginning of the night that I forget
who said it. This might have been like
the World Economic Forum predicted 78
million jobs being created over the next
several years. And isn't that great? and
everybody's worried about technological
unemployment. But look, and it's like,
well, this is not an algebraic
situation. This is a calculus situation.
If 78 million jobs are being created and
millions of jobs are being destroyed and
the people whose jobs are destroyed
cannot retrain in the time that it takes
to fill those jobs with qualified people
or to save their livelihoods,
then job creation is actually a problem.
And looking at only one side of the
equation of creative destruction is an
issue. And then later Sarah Boyver got
up from MIT and was talking about how
she used to work in lasers and she's
moved on to printing and that you used
to have one guy who knew how to use the
CNC machine and now whenever the new
distributed manufacturing infrastructure
makes it into the building nobody knows
how to use it except by going on to the
internet where if a lot of these
instructions if you follow them will
blow up your building and so I Yeah.
Anyway, so I'm thinking a lot ju um and
I don't know how this connects to my
conversation with you, but just about
the like I told my wife this morning
that I expect the future just to get
busier and that if you're having trouble
tracking things right now, you're not
going to be able to expect it to get
better unless we change something inside
of ourselves that increases our capacity
to maintain necessary cohesion and focus
within an increasingly busy environment. So
So >> yeah,
>> yeah, >> anyway,
>> anyway,
>> for me, I think that goes back to why do
you even need jobs in the first place?
Like the assumption that creating jobs
is a good thing. Surely automation is
supposed to make us be able to do less
things. So, I think the fact that we're
still talking about just creating jobs
and not talking about like what do we
want those jobs to do or the quality of
what we're creating rather than the
quantity, then we're still having the
wrong conversation, especially as we're
seeing that endless growth on a finite
planet is not going to work for very
much longer. I think the question of
automation and jobs is very much
connected to that. And yeah, if we're
going to be automating things, let's
think about how we're going to make that
have great outcomes for everyone, make
people be able to pay more attention to
their kids or work less rather than just
create more jobs or fill people's time
with more stuff. It's like the atom of
this whole situation is at the heart of
something I know I want to talk with you
about today, which is this metaphysics
of technology, which is if you
specialize labor, okay, someone else is
cooking the food, so I have more time to
forage, then you end up with somebody
who's really good at foraging and
somebody who's really good at cooking.
And then if the person who knows how to
cook dies, you're back at square one and
you actually need two people to
specialize. So there's this second order
thing that you're getting at which is
automation isn't necessarily even
producing leisure. Like it's just moving
the work somewhere else. And then who's
responsible for overseeing that work?
And then is that even fun? And what
fills up the time that you've created?
Probably maintaining the outboarded
structure for someone else. And the
system gets less and less capable at the
level of the individual. And like most
people seem comfortable with that. But
now we're in this situation where we are
encouraged to know one thing very well
and be effectively useless every other
way. And collectively we have more
knowledge than anyone else like ever
before supposedly. But each of us is
this like helpless, domesticated
animal. And we're like at that point
where we don't even know how to prompt
the collective for the insights that we
need. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe we just
snap it off here and start a fresh conversation.
conversation. >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> Yeah. Andrea, it's a pleasure. Thank you
for being here.
>> The pleasure is mine. We're so glad we
got to do this finally.
>> I want to start because you start dy.xyz
by talking about your own journey and
your process and the history that you've
gone through personally. And because I
want to anchor this in local story,
that's where I'd like to start with you.
So at great length hopefully we can talk
about it breaks my heart, my soul, my
body, this piece that you wrote and what
health and technology and balance,
regenerative thinking, where all of this
comes from for you and why you care
about these conversations. Yeah, I guess
whenever I tell this story, I never
really know where to start because I
feel like it's been ongoing for such a
long time, but it took me a while to
actually see it that I was looking for I
guess for a long time I was looking for
a way to actually make a difference in
the world and just be helpful. How can
what I do make a difference or just I
want to do something that feels
meaningful and my career started out in
the startup world. I was really excited
by technology, by startup culture, by
building the new, by innovation.
And so I got sucked into to this world.
And I wanted with all my heart to to
innovate, to create new kinds of
products that would help people. And as
a designer and as a product strategist,
I worked for a long time trying to
advise people and do research and create
products that would help people.
And the more I worked on different
projects, the more I became
disillusioned with what I saw because no
matter what I worked on, it seemed like
it wasn't actually helpful. Like I was
just putting a band-aid on a gushing
wound and it seemed every time I just
lifted a lid like there was some
lying underneath. nothing was ever felt
like I was actually creating a real
impact and but I kept searching and I
kept searching and I kept searching and
there were I think two real turning
points for me and they're both related
to health actually because close to the
turning point I was working in
healthcare because I felt like creating
products for healthcare would help
people like what better way to help the
world and I was building a product to
support people getting home care. So
getting nurses and doctors to come to
their house. And I was doing user
research and I spoke to people. I spoke
to many people who was using this
medical service and they all had really
heartbreaking stories to tell about how
their older parents have been left alone
without care or have been haven't been
given the care they needed. including
one man who was at the hospital with his
father while his father was lying on his
deathbed. And he took the time out to
talk to me because he just wanted to
speak to someone about the terrible care
that his dying father had received at
home. And that was a real turning point
because it really just made me feel on a
very emotional level that when what I
said before, I was just putting a
band-aid on a real big problem. And I
wanted to address the problem. I didn't
just want to do put a band-aid. And I
realized no matter how much how amazing
this app is that supports people with
their home care, nothing is ever going
to fix the problem that this man has
that his father was sitting alone at
home sick and the nurse didn't show up
or the nurse didn't know how to treat
him. And that was one moment where I
said there must be a deeper level. How
can I go deeper? like I I need to
understand how I can really meaningfully
address some of these problems. And for
me, it all came back to money. It all
comes back to money. Everyone's always
trying to optimize for profit or they
just don't have the right amount of
funding to do what they need to do. And
so that just was a real realization for
me that I was working on the wrong
thing. And around the same time, I was
having a lot of issues with my own
health. I had a back injury just from
sitting in the wrong position or from
nothing in particular. It's just that
every time I made the wrong movement, I
would just be in bed for days in pain
because my back would just be so painful
and it felt like I just didn't know what
to do. I went to doctors. I got scans. I
went to therapy. I did osteopathy
and actually it just got worse and worse
over time. And through my whole process
of research actually were trying to
figure out how do I go how do I go
deeper? How do I understand what the
real problems are? I started researching
about the regeneration and the
regenerative economy and how we're
treating our planet like it's some kind
of machine always trying to optimize for
the maximum results. And I had this
realization that I was doing the same
thing to my body. Even throughout my
work, I always pushed myself to the
limit. I always wanted to be the best at
what I did and my body was just a
vehicle to do that. And even through the
healing process, I was just saying to
myself, how can I get the right therapy?
If I do this, then will I be healthy? If
I do this, then will I be healthy? And I
wasn't really giving myself that the
care that I needed. And so I realized it
all went back to this idea of care and
caring like caring for the processes
that actually create life and not just
trying to optimize for the maximum
outcome. And the words felt the words
made sense to me, but it wasn't until I
felt it in my own body that I understood
what it that actually meant deeply. And
so that was the start of a transition
for me of saying okay I need to dedicate
my life to understanding how I can
implement this these principles in the
world in how our economies work in how
our technology works and that's what
I've been doing ever since then. So you
talk about Martin Booer's I thou
thinking in this piece and there's a
moment where it's radical. You're
relating to your body as a subject. What
do you want? And you can actually listen
rather than just command and manipulate.
But then you talk about how at some
point you realize that it got ridiculous
because the thou in question as you put
it was just me. And I I think about this
protocol for shadow work I learned back
in 2005. the 321 process referencing
third, second, and first person
perspectives and how you know if
something is triggering you, you can
enter into a kind of gestalt
psychotherrapeutic dialogue with that
thing after you take the time to
describe it fully. You know, first you
attend to it, then you converse with it.
The case that we were given was you know
a monster showing up in your dreams. And
the point of this process is where you
realize that the monster is a part of
you. It's like some manifestation of
your own dreaming mind and that you can
claim this part of yourself in a way
that allows you to recognize its value.
Which is funny, right? Because you make
the point also that the importance of
keeping your body healthy. You say my
sense of self and self-worth, not to
mention my economic prosperity were
deeply tied to the value it could
produce. Elsewhere on Dome, you talk
about value and values. So I want to
make sure we get there. where I tend to
go with all of this. I feel like right
now people I'm seeing more and more
people like my friend Rubina Cohen at
this AI salon last night talking about
relating to AI or technology broadly as
thou like entering into conversation
with it recognizing the consciousness of
nonhuman entities on our planet and also
there's a step beyond that where the
broadest sense, you know, like care
takes us eventually all the way to care
for other as self. And that seems really
important. That something that seems to
me fundamentally broken about the way
that we relate to the planet, but also
to technologies,
is that not many people are doing that.
Like at best people are having this
sense that interacting with a large
language model is if you give it the
benefit of doubt interacting with some
kind of nonhuman intelligence. Maybe I'm
just hard to please here. It seems like
we're still missing the turn that you
made with your own body where it's like,
okay, well, what does it mean to really
listen? And what does it mean to really
care? This involves a turn from the
second person back to the deeper
recognition that a lot of this drive to
extract value is ultimately anchored in
some kind of lack of selfworth. That's
very clear the not enoughness with which
we see tech magnates. Oh, clearly you're
just doing this because you wanted
approval that you never got from your
dad or whatever. But it's not just them.
It's I'm not going to make this a class
issue. This is something that I deal
with, too. This sense of having to
accomplish more. And a lot of what
motivates this particular show is my
desire to model for people what arises
when that is brought into the light. And
we can start talking about values
instead of value and how those things
are so often out of sync because we are
not addressing some sort of deep-seated inadequacy.
inadequacy.
And so I yeah, I would love to know what
you feel is worth patching into and
where you see it coming up in the
various discourses that you monitor and
participate in and just what it brings up.
up.
>> Yeah, I think just this question of what
is enough and how do we address limits?
How do we handle limits as a human
society is a really important one and
one that I think is core to the question
of how do we move forward. I guess
there's two things in there. It's this
idea of enoughness and how do we handle
limits and this idea of care and how do
we center care rather than this kind of
more more. I think both are to do with
quality over quantity, right? I think
the idea of an enoughness is really
important. I'm just thinking in my head
now, it's bringing up of the ecological
donor by Kate Roundsworth, I believe her
name is, and how do we stay within the
ecological limits? And I think it's the
same story with technology, same story
with anything that we're looking at of
how do we actually handle staying within
the necessary limitations where we're
living within our means, but we're also
doing the things that align with our
values and are able to effectively
identify values as a collective and live
by those values by saying no, we
shouldn't do this or no, this is the
limit. I don't think we've really
figured out how to do that collectively.
And I think that's exemplified by the
fact that we our core process for
decision making is through through
money, through profits. If it's
profitable, then we do it. If it's not
profitable, then we don't do it. What
other mechanisms for making decisions
that align with our values or that stay
within limits can we have where we're
not just making decisions based on
what's profitable or what we can extract
monetary value from, but what actually
aligns with our values or stays within
the limits of whether it's ecological
boundaries or whatever else. And I think
enoughness relates closely to care in
that care is not sexy in a lot of ways.
There's a lot of repetition, right? It's
a lot of unseen work. It's a lot of
repetitive work. It's a lot of just
things that no one's going to make
history by doing. And yeah, I guess what
you're saying about these tech mogul
centering or always driving this change
towards a future that we're promised
that we want or that we will want is
very related to this idea of innovation,
of the new, of busyness rather than this
kind of intentional care that's often
invisible or often
not, let's say, impressive in some way
or not going to get you into the history
of books. I'm thinking of in spite of
his problematic legacy. I remember
reading a book by Osho. I think it was
like Tantra for transformation back in
college and he said something to the
effect of I'm not saying to be rid of
your desires. I'm saying that you don't
desire enough. Meaning you could create
a product that helps a billion people,
but that's only a material change in the
world. You might become a billionaire,
but those are still the desires of a
small self. And why aren't more people
asking, why am I satisfied? It's funny
because it's not so much the amount of
not enoughness as it is the distribution
of not enoughness. It's like we could be
asking, "I'm not wise enough. I'm not
compassionate enough. I'm not capacious
enough to infold all of the world in my
sense of care." And to your point, care
doesn't get one in the history books.
Why do you want to be a great person
instead of a good person? And so, I want
to make a connection here between two of
the quotes that you put in this piece.
You quote Jack D. Forbes in indigenous
American spirituality and ecos. I can
lose my hands and still live. I can lose
my legs and still live. I can lose my
eyes and still live. But if I lose the
air, I die. If I lose the sun, I die. If
I lose the earth, I die, etc. All of
these things are more a part of me, more
essential to my every breath than is my
body. What is my real body? So again, it
seems like primarily there's this dislocation
dislocation
of selfhood that leads to the
acquisitive and extractive impulse and
that to expand one's desire to what my
mom would call the treasures of heaven
rather than the treasures of this life
blinds us to other things that are of
real You also quote Yansancy Strickler
in Postcism for Realists makes the point
that GDP tracks how much is spent but
not why. And that an ideal citizen is
someone who drives an SUV, has cancer,
is getting divorced and eats out every
night. And yeah, again because I I just
want to linger in this question of to really
really
identity into the more than human to
accept technology
and the biosphere
and beyond into that eye. it becomes
very clear that money is not actually registering
registering
everything of value. And so I guess just
moving forward in this conversation I
want to be clear that on the one hand I
think and you give some really good
examples of ways that we can design and
adopt technologies
from a more spacious identity and that
one of those technologies is the means
by which we account for value that we
align value and values. And I also want
to point to this notion that some of the
things that you bring up or some of the
things I talk on the show about a lot,
which is about local currency and how
one way that we can get a more accurate
accounting of value is by knowing the
natural limit beyond which the systems
that we use to track value become decontextualized
decontextualized
from what is valuable to us in our
community or our region. That local currencies
currencies
complicate in some ways the ability to
exchange with the entire global economy,
but like in other ways bring accounting
back to a human scale. So, I've already
gone on too long. I'd love to let you
just take that.
>> Yeah. I guess the first thing that came
up for me was just thinking about my own
process of reconnecting with my body and
in another way also reconnecting with
the bigger hole and on a physical level.
I actually had this really amazing
experience where at first I started
doing a lot of yoga. Then I went to a
place called the movement school where
they essentially taught me how to move
my body in different ways and reconnect
re-spark the connection with different
parts of my body in a very physical way.
And since then, I've felt the experience
of living within my body very
differently, a lot more vividly. Just
focusing on movement as I walk, as I
sit, even as I experience my life. Being
physically present in my movement has
changed a lot for me in just
understanding what my body does and what
my body is. And I feel a similar
experience with reconnecting
with the bigger hole of learning to
connect with what's actually around us.
been really involved with the bio
regional movement and something that
really is very salient for me and in
those ideas is just understanding where
does your water come from where does
your food come from what plants and more
than human beings exist around you and I
think just that process of refocusing
the attention on what's here and now how
are you moving through space what kinds
of relationships do you have on a daily
basis this with your community that
being the human community around you or
the more than human community. I think
that refocusing of attention is really
important in this reconnection process
of not just scratching the surface but
actually going deep into the movements
into the invisible processes that happen
all around us. And I think that's core
to what we're talking about in terms of
connection or expanding the eye and in
refocusing the values or understanding
the values. So really being present
within the processes of your body of
your community of the things that
sustain your life. And I think that
takes us, you know, into community and
community currencies and how can that
support this process. And I guess
something that's really interesting for
me is how currency can express values
and value. And one thing that draws me
to the web 3 movement in particular is
this idea that you can create currencies
around values. You can create a currency
around a meme or an idea and that can
create different types of value flows
that can support that idea and bring
something to life that wasn't there
before. And so it it just brings to the
forefront for me the relationship
between the how we pay attention and
what we pay attention to. the narratives
that are formed from that. The social
structures that emerge from those
narratives and how those narratives and
those social structures can create
essentially tokens that can act as
financial mechanisms to those narratives
forward, bring those narratives to life.
And something that I'm really interested
in is how human complex systems
function. And there's this idea of
humans, an individual human is in it
ourselves. We are complex system. And
when we interact with other humans, that
system becomes even more complex. How do
these mechanisms function for actually
collaborating within these complex
systems? whether it's a small group or
the planetary community. And it goes
back to this relationship between the narratives,
narratives,
the social structures, and the financial
flows. How those three things work
together essentially determines how
human groups are able to function. And
so I'm really interested in those
relationships and how by understanding
these mechanisms we can create new kinds
of groups that have different narratives
and that can cultivate these narratives
into demonstrations of different ways to
act within the world and live within the
world. So to embellish what we've been
talking about so far, you quote
technology is not values neutral, ending
the reign of nihilistic design in your
section on technology values, talking
about how the scale increased the
salience and visibility of body weight,
changing the ways in which it could be
valued, thought about, and otherwise
related to psychologically. This had
unforeseen outcome. So this is the
Michael constantly yellow teaming part
of the show.
Because I too love the way that web 3 is
giving us this proliferation this e
fllororesence of new ways to think about
the measurement of value and what can be
measured becomes something that can be
encouraged. It creates a channel through
which information and energy and matter
can flow. But much of current web 3
space is still I think suffering from a
disjunction of the kind I talked about
with Christina Bowen. Thinking about
there are safe, brave and inclusive
social spaces. And again to go back to
the local currency thing, there's a
difference between a local currency that
only works where you are and then a
local currency that started out coupled
to matters of salience for that
community, but becomes something that
people can trade, finance, and speculate
on in the global economy. And I've been
around the crypto space for long enough
to see the way that the promise of
Bitcoin hit that point in the tech
adoption curve where suddenly states are
considering it a reserve currency and
Black Rockck owns countless billions of
dollars in crypto or like in what was it
December of 2017 when they opened the
futures fund for Bitcoin and then
suddenly it is functioning in a
completely different way. And I guess
the question that I'm thinking about is
akin to the question I asked Christina,
which is if we're talking about
enoughness, one of the things I think
about a lot is how to keep local
attention, local accounting decoupled
enough from the pressures of these
larger systems so that it can continue
to be functional in its original
context. text. This may seem over here
in the space, but like it's related to
this thing about incubation and about
the value of play and how hard it is to
actually get your head into play. If
it's for something
>> and then it becomes a game, then it
becomes thing where you have something
at stake. One of the big pieces of the
inquiry of this program right now is in
knowing when to make something visible
in a way that it becomes something that
can be instrumentalized and operated on.
But it's not just a binary question.
It's a question of at what scale do we
have that agency. to give an example I
think most people will understand
reciprocity in social relationships and
popularity in one's scene but as soon as
we like popped that with social media
basically the whole world got reshaped
by this global popularity contest and
that had all kinds of devastating consequences
consequences
where the scale at which something
should operate operate is now open to
connected with all of these other scales
with all of the consequent opacity rich
get richer dynamics and I just think
about like carbon markets and how it
seems like a good thing to make that
trackable but then it's become like
another GDP and so this conversation is
as much about these two axes
about what deserves to be tracked. I
talked about this with Jim Oanessy where
he was saying just because I can track
my sleep quality with a Fitbit doesn't
mean I want to. There are things that we
as individuals or as neighborhoods or
societies or whatever may decide we're
not going to make into affordances for
optimization. So there's that and then
there's the other axis which is that
again this is not just a binary concern
of do I measure it or not but a question
of let's assume that everything can be
tokenized at what level of regulation
does tokenizing it help and at what
level does it actually make things worse
>> what that brings up for me is just
thinking about how to me one of the most
important challenges of our time is how
do we actually govern our common resources
resources
and this relates closely to web 3
because in web 3 people are talking
about governance they're talking about
new kinds of economic systems new uh
financial models but a lot of the time
it's all very abstract and it starts
with the mechanisms
People in web 3 love to tell you about
their funding mechanism for whatever it
is or their governance mechanism for
Dows, but to me it all comes down to how
do we govern our watersheds? How do we
govern our common assets? So I think one
one of the speaking of axis, one of the
axis for me is this contextualization
versus abstraction and how really one of
the problems with the globalized world
and globalized currencies is this high
levels of abstraction that where we're
looking at these these numbers of how
much this value has gone up or down
rather than the actual tangible value of
the water that we need to drink or the
air that we need to breathe. And I think
web 3, the majority of the web 3 space
is actually going further along that
abstraction axis. It's further
abstracting through tokenizing through mechanisms
mechanisms
rather than contextualizing. And I think
what we need to do is contextualize. And
so I think web 3 has given us a lot of
insight and a lot of models. But now the
work is to look at the world and look at
the actual real tangible governance
problems that we have like how do we
govern our watersheds and say how can
our learnings apply to this? And I think
it really starts with what we were
saying around how do we expand this idea
of I how do we develop ourselves in conjunction
conjunction
with our communities and realize that
the I is not just us. There is no such
thing as I if we're not in relationship
to others and in relationship to the
ecosystems around us. And those
relationships are governance. Governance
starts with relationships. And the
mechanisms and the abstraction is
useful, but it's especially useful when
things go wrong or when things aren't
working the way that it should be or
when you need to work at a level where
you're not able to build this kind of
trust at scale. But really the first
thing is being in relationship and
building trust and the last thing is
financial mechanisms or governance
mechanisms. And yeah, I think I'll leave
it there. You said a lot of things, but
that's the main thing that came up for
me. So, this is cool because this
actually allows me to get into this idea
of the dome as not opposed to but
expanding on the biome to include the
virtual and the digital and how another
thing that comes up a lot on this show
is that sort of dark forest theory of
the internet because you know you're
talking about trust and one of the consequences
consequences
of coupling mechanis mechisms that make
sense at one scale to mechanisms that
make sense at another scale. is that we
now operate in these enormous online
social spaces that are subject to some
of the same challenges that you get when
you know a watershed becomes
not just valuable for the dynamics of
that area but becomes the place that
serves some sort of industrial function.
You know, like
>> I see what has happened with the global
economy and social media akin to, let me
put it like this. I'm very wary of the
idea that this story of the automation
of trust mechanisms
>> is actually going to operate as
advertised. Because the story that most
of us, I think, learned in public
schooling is that was what money was in
the first place as a way to engage with
people that you're not going to have
that context, that long-term
relationship with. It reduces everything
to the transaction rather than the
relationship. And this idea that you
explore in rewing social digital spaces.
I think you know the fact that right now
younger generations are less interested
in Facebook and more interested in for
example Discord or the success of a
platform like Mighty Networks is part
and parcel with this recognition that
the integrity of these things at their
scale are crucial. that like being able
to know the people that you're speaking
to online is like knowing that your food
and your water come from this place.
When I talked to Layman Pascal about
this, one of his observations, you know,
the deep trend of what we're living
through right now is that we're pulling
increasingly in both directions that we
are unifying processes at ever greater
scales, but also in order to understand
that we're diving deeper and deeper into
the micro worlds. And so I don't really
see these things necessarily in
opposition, but it no longer seems to
make sense to talk about ecosystems
without considering the fact that those
ecosystems now are in context with human
culture and the exchange of ideas and
that a lot of that is going on online
and that it's like irresponsible to
regard these as from one another. And
yeah, I want to not pivot so much as
bend your thinking on the Dome and on
what it means to care for the partially
digital social environments in which we
are making important decisions about how
to relate to one another across all of
these scales and in both physical world
and virtual world. and why these are not like
like
>> yeah I guess it's absolutely important
because our identities are formed
through these conversations that we have
online more and more and conversations
not just with other humans but with
algorithms with AI with advertisers with
businesses with corporations
the way that we interact online essentially
essentially
is a form of socializing. It it shapes
who we think we are, how we relate to
others and how we relate to the wider
world. So these processes by which we're
defining our identity and defining what
we believe to be true and the narratives
that shape our perception of the world
are crucial to how we act in the world
and therefore also crucial to any kind
of change or transition we might want to
make in how we act in the world. And
we've been speaking a lot about
watersheds and I think this acts as a
great metaphor for online spaces too.
Often this metaphor of feeds like in
Facebook, Instagram, Twitter are spoken
about with the metaphor of a stream. But
really, it's a massive flowing river of
information where we're all essentially
drowning or more than a river, more like
a pipe where it's just pumping
information all the time. Whereas rivers
and waterheds follow a fractal
structure. So speaking of scales, you
have small streams that lead into rivers
that lead into bigger waterways that
eventually empty into the sea. So it's
not for me just about breaking up into
smaller groups and knowing everyone
around you, but about what is the
relationship between the small and the
big and I think learning from these
kinds of fractal relationships is very
powerful as we think about how are we
creating online spaces. How are we
creating spaces where we can form deep
and meaningful relationships with the
people around us where we know the names
or the identities the assumed identities
of those people and how are those
relationships essentially being mirrored
through fractal structures into bigger
scales. So, not just a pipe pumping
information, but fractal relationships
that build on each other. And we're
seeing this more and more in this kind
of dark forest theory of the internet,
which you were mentioning, of people in
part retreating to smaller, cozier
spaces. I tell people now that my main
social media is Telegram and they look
at me like I'm crazy, but it's true.
Most of my social networking happens on
Telegram because I'm part of different
size groups that are talking about
themes that I'm interested in. There are
different kinds of scenes that are
interested in different topics and that
is the backbone of my social
interactions online. But these cozy
space spaces don't exist in isolation.
There's people who participate in many
spaces. So there's this cross-pollination
cross-pollination
and the ideas or the outputs that are
being created and being built in these
smaller spaces then get channeled out
into those bigger streams or rivers down
the line. And so I hope we're going to
see more of these patterns where at the
same time as we enter into more of these
cozy spaces, we're creating spaces for
these ideas to be born for people to
play around with different kinds of
identity essentially sense making spaces
where we're processing information
collectively with people that we trust.
And then the question becomes what is
that relationship? How can we create
this fractal relationship between the
small and the cozy and the wider streams
until we get to the sea?
>> So, this is exactly what I hoped you'd
bring up in your section on reing social
digital spaces. You quote Rebecca Snit
talking about how as swaths of our
countryside were repurposed for farming
over the past century, our city streets
have been optimized for one goal, to
move people around as quickly as
possible, unhindered by anyone using
public space for other purposes. And
this is of a theme with what you were
just saying about online communication.
the fact that it's all just it's been
consolidated into these gushing unified
torrents and the rewed internet at least
in part is going to look like the
fractal river that has not just
tributaries but also oxbow like that
it's like structurally slowed down and
we know you know to link back into
complex systems. The fractal growth of a
watershed or of circulatory systems is
about this distribution of strain
through the topos or whatever like
through that space. But that in a
straight channel, all of the friction
that would be dissipated o across an
oxbow, it ends up creating these
vortices because the water does not want
to flow straight. I think we're just
embellishing the point here. But I think
a lot of the conflict online is coming
from this kind of a dynamic. And so I
want to tie this back to the
conversation around the commons, the
piece that you cite by Henry Zoo on the
limits and good of public goods, which
starts by asking is language itself a
public good. While language as a whole
may not be excluded, we find ways in
which it is flattened. And so this is
where I want to initiate the question of
again maybe this is kind of mischievous
but if we're thinking about tech for
good in a much more fundamental and
rigorous way rather than just myopic and
superficial then part of this is not
just about the proliferation of
biodiversity or of cultural diversity.
It's about linguistic diversity. And you
spend some time on reing our attention,
which can include such things as online
rabbit holes of information about
non-trending topics, following niche
blogs about small weird things, finding
like-minded people in groups, and
writing on your own terms. So, like when
I spoke to Michael Dean on this show,
he's working on AI not for writing but
for editing his unedited stream of
thought essays into the form that will
make them legible for other people. And
the great hope that he and I see for AI
as a translation layer is that it frees
up each of us as the tributaries of this
enormous socioultural
happening to worry less. In some sense,
it sounds like I may be saying the
opposite of what I was just saying about
money and blockchain automated trust
mechanisms and so on. But I want to play
the other side with you for a minute
here. That if we can find ways to use
technology to worry less about making
ourselves legible to other people. If
you can get your philosophy degree and
then be a philosopher and just follow
what you decide is locally valuable and
curate what seems salient in your life
without having to worry about product
market fit, then that seems like a light
on how we can possibly start doing what
you said a moment ago, which is finding
ways to connect the system in healthier
ways cross scales, you know. And so for
me, like the big challenge right now
with the cozy web is that so much of it
is illeible and that the tools that we
have make the insights from one little
niche area of this vast collective human
experience make them legible to whomever
else might benefit is partially one of
our capacity to translate but largely
one of privacy. And again, we've come
back to this question of like placing
blind faith in the ability of the AI
editor to represent you does not get us
there. But nor does merely constricting
the sphere of concern to the health of
one's watershed because the watershed is
connected through atmospheric and water
currents to everything else. This is I
guess kind of a biomimicry question, a
technology design question. It's about
the reconciliation
of the local self-determination of value
and self-governance with the
interlinkage of everything and how do we
decide where to connect things across scales.
scales.
>> Yeah. I guess one of the things that
came up for me is you were saying that,
you know, what would it mean if I was
able to be a philosopher and not worry
about fitting myself into the world or
this idea of product market fit. But I
think there's always some sort of
product market fit. We don't just exist
as islands. We exist in relationship to
the things around us. So there's always
this idea of finding prep market fit in
terms of who I am in relationship to
like the time that I live in in this
world, the place that I live in, the
people that are around me that I'm in
communication with. And so the way that
we formulate who we are, who I am as a
philosopher should be in relationship to
others. So there there is this idea of
how am I finding product market fit or
like individual community fit but I
guess for me it's what is that in
service to generally it's around like
being in service to capital but how do
we create individual community fit
that's in service to our values and I
think that's related to narratives and
how do we process information and how do we sensemate around who we are in
we sensemate around who we are in relationship to others or in
relationship to others or in relationship to the space and time that
relationship to the space and time that we live in. And that's what we do within
we live in. And that's what we do within these kinds of communities. And so for
these kinds of communities. And so for me, it's all about these relationships.
me, it's all about these relationships. It's not about the information per se.
It's not about the information per se. We often focusing on the information
We often focusing on the information itself, but really the most important
itself, but really the most important thing is the kind of structures that
thing is the kind of structures that you're creating around that information.
you're creating around that information. you're saying, how can we get this
you're saying, how can we get this information out to people that it might
information out to people that it might be relevant to? But I think maybe at the
be relevant to? But I think maybe at the core of that is how are we connecting
core of that is how are we connecting people together in ways that create
people together in ways that create fruitful relationships, whether that's
fruitful relationships, whether that's synchronously through actual
synchronously through actual conversations or asynchronously through
conversations or asynchronously through I read something that you wrote and that
I read something that you wrote and that gave me an idea. So I guess for me it
gave me an idea. So I guess for me it comes down to that. I think these
comes down to that. I think these communities for me are a break away from
communities for me are a break away from even the mass media and mass internet
even the mass media and mass internet culture that we've been experiencing a
culture that we've been experiencing a new way to create local cultures whether
new way to create local cultures whether it's local to a place or local to an
it's local to a place or local to an idea or to a narrative. And I guess as
idea or to a narrative. And I guess as we create these kind of experimental
we create these kind of experimental spaces for narratives and for ideas and
spaces for narratives and for ideas and for processing information, I think that
for processing information, I think that creates new kinds of relationships and
creates new kinds of relationships and it builds trust because it's not just
it builds trust because it's not just about the information is how do we
about the information is how do we actually are how are we making sense of
actually are how are we making sense of this information together? And that's
this information together? And that's key to me in moving forward out of the
key to me in moving forward out of the place that we're in and into a new kind
place that we're in and into a new kind of creative space in how do we
of creative space in how do we communicate? How do we create? How do we
communicate? How do we create? How do we govern the world differently is how do
govern the world differently is how do we sensemate together around our
we sensemate together around our identities around what's happening in
identities around what's happening in the world. So for me it's not so much
the world. So for me it's not so much about the translation but it's about the
about the translation but it's about the kinds of relationships and the qualities
kinds of relationships and the qualities of relationships and how are we building
of relationships and how are we building those? How are we connecting the mcelium
those? How are we connecting the mcelium together?
together? >> If we're going to repeat this back to
>> If we're going to repeat this back to you in the language of the analogy I
you in the language of the analogy I just offered. It's about less relying on
just offered. It's about less relying on automated translation to make one's
automated translation to make one's weird idiosyncratic
weird idiosyncratic niche thing legibly inclusive than it is
niche thing legibly inclusive than it is about finding how it matters in a way
about finding how it matters in a way that can be understood by people who
that can be understood by people who live closer to you in geographic or in
live closer to you in geographic or in semantic space. to go back to the thing
semantic space. to go back to the thing about crypto. It's like I had a
about crypto. It's like I had a conversation with a beloved boomer
conversation with a beloved boomer friend of mine who was saying, "Yeah,
friend of mine who was saying, "Yeah, all these things that you're saying are
all these things that you're saying are valuable about web 3 stuff. At the end
valuable about web 3 stuff. At the end of the day, you're still trading out
of the day, you're still trading out into the dollar." And her point was that
into the dollar." And her point was that makes the dollar more trustworthy
makes the dollar more trustworthy because she's still giving more trust to
because she's still giving more trust to the institution.
the institution. Whereas I think it's a problem in the
Whereas I think it's a problem in the opposite direction. It's like the dollar
opposite direction. It's like the dollar still matters in my community. And I
still matters in my community. And I think that's closer to the heart of what
think that's closer to the heart of what you're saying, right? Like if you're
you're saying, right? Like if you're listening in Europe, then it's wow,
listening in Europe, then it's wow, wouldn't it be great if we could have
wouldn't it be great if we could have participated in the euro without getting
participated in the euro without getting rid of national currency?
rid of national currency? >> Yeah, let's see. Plurality is a very
>> Yeah, let's see. Plurality is a very important thing. So yeah, absolutely. I
important thing. So yeah, absolutely. I think the idea of currency also can
think the idea of currency also can follow this narrative of nested
follow this narrative of nested hierarchy. We can have the euro, we can
hierarchy. We can have the euro, we can have the country level currencies, we
have the country level currencies, we can have the local currencies and we can
can have the local currencies and we can have currencies that represent our
have currencies that represent our values in the communities that we live
values in the communities that we live in. Not just geographically but
in. Not just geographically but semantically as you said. So, we're
semantically as you said. So, we're talking about building trust in
talking about building trust in institutions. I think the our current
institutions. I think the our current perception of web 3 or of creating
perception of web 3 or of creating tradable tokens or tradable currencies
tradable tokens or tradable currencies is very much just a lot of the time
is very much just a lot of the time they're not new kinds of currencies.
they're not new kinds of currencies. They are just representations of the
They are just representations of the dollar. I think the challenge is how do
dollar. I think the challenge is how do we think beyond just currency and
we think beyond just currency and consider maybe I need to a second to
consider maybe I need to a second to think about that this I feel like okay
think about that this I feel like okay we're talking about the dark web and
we're talking about the dark web and sense making spaces and then we're
sense making spaces and then we're jumping into currencies I guess I I want
jumping into currencies I guess I I want to make this more tangible somehow and
to make this more tangible somehow and maybe I'll use the example of the bio
maybe I'll use the example of the bio regional movement so I've been recently
regional movement so I've been recently really doing a lot of research on the
really doing a lot of research on the bio regional movement because it's
bio regional movement because it's something that it's a space that to me
something that it's a space that to me is trying to create not just new
is trying to create not just new narratives around how do we connect to
narratives around how do we connect to place but actual systems of governance
place but actual systems of governance and finance around resources. So there's
and finance around resources. So there's this tangible connection between
this tangible connection between developing new narratives and new kinds
developing new narratives and new kinds of relationships in niche small spaces
of relationships in niche small spaces but at the same time at a global level
but at the same time at a global level and connecting these new kinds of ideas
and connecting these new kinds of ideas of the eye is not just me but it's a
of the eye is not just me but it's a planetary eye and we need to govern our
planetary eye and we need to govern our resources in a way that centers care and
resources in a way that centers care and centers relationship and is regenerative
centers relationship and is regenerative and viable in the long term. And tying
and viable in the long term. And tying these ideas with real life
these ideas with real life demonstrations of governance
demonstrations of governance structures built on trust over time by
structures built on trust over time by people that have been working in place
people that have been working in place for a really long time. and using this
for a really long time. and using this trust and these new narratives that are
trust and these new narratives that are very salient at the moment and very
very salient at the moment and very persuasive in thinking about how do we
persuasive in thinking about how do we create systems change and turning it
create systems change and turning it into tangible new ways of relating to
into tangible new ways of relating to our place and financing regeneration in
our place and financing regeneration in a place and the movement uses a lot of
a place and the movement uses a lot of ideas from web 3 for example in the most
ideas from web 3 for example in the most direct way eco credits are a mechanism
direct way eco credits are a mechanism for financing these new kinds of ways of
for financing these new kinds of ways of relating to place and working it in
relating to place and working it in place and these institutions that are
place and these institutions that are trying to create systemic change but
trying to create systemic change but more than that I think is the idea that
more than that I think is the idea that we can create new kinds of institutions
we can create new kinds of institutions and often blockchain or web 3 can act as
and often blockchain or web 3 can act as building blocks for how do we finance
building blocks for how do we finance new projects or how do we track what's
new projects or how do we track what's happening in this place or how do we
happening in this place or how do we govern a specific asset but it's not the
govern a specific asset but it's not the core of it. The core is about building
core of it. The core is about building the narrative within community building
the narrative within community building trust building new kinds of social
trust building new kinds of social structures and relationships to place
structures and relationships to place and the technologies are just there to
and the technologies are just there to support these narratives and new kinds
support these narratives and new kinds of social structures. So I'm not sure if
of social structures. So I'm not sure if that answers your question, but that's
that answers your question, but that's what's coming up for me of how this
what's coming up for me of how this becomes something more tangible. So it's
becomes something more tangible. So it's not about just creating tokens that you
not about just creating tokens that you can trade into dollars or not, but how
can trade into dollars or not, but how is technology
is technology creating building blocks for making real
creating building blocks for making real these new kinds of social structures
these new kinds of social structures that we want to create in a place around
that we want to create in a place around governing water around governing our
governing water around governing our agriculture or our soil. It's just a way
agriculture or our soil. It's just a way that we're bringing these ideas to life,
that we're bringing these ideas to life, but it really has to start with a deeper
but it really has to start with a deeper relationship to place and community and
relationship to place and community and an idea of how do we create social
an idea of how do we create social structures differently.
structures differently. >> Yeah. I want to link what you've said
>> Yeah. I want to link what you've said and what we've been hinting at this
and what we've been hinting at this whole time. This relationship between
whole time. This relationship between fast, global, abstract and explicit on
fast, global, abstract and explicit on one end and slow, local, tangible and
one end and slow, local, tangible and tacit on another with you talk about the
tacit on another with you talk about the knowetic pyramid, data, information,
knowetic pyramid, data, information, knowledge, wisdom. And we agree that a
knowledge, wisdom. And we agree that a lot of people are looking for what
lot of people are looking for what rightly belongs at the level of
rightly belongs at the level of information in data or what rightly
information in data or what rightly belongs at the level of knowledge in
belongs at the level of knowledge in information or what rightly belongs at
information or what rightly belongs at the level of wisdom in knowledge or
the level of wisdom in knowledge or worse in data.
worse in data. >> Um what I want to know is where you see
>> Um what I want to know is where you see healthy structures in place where these
healthy structures in place where these things are situated. I just want to say
things are situated. I just want to say like the whole website. I love the way
like the whole website. I love the way that you have structured all of these
that you have structured all of these entries as trunk, leaves, flowers,
entries as trunk, leaves, flowers, fruits with fruits being the tangible
fruits with fruits being the tangible examples of places where people are
examples of places where people are these insights into practice. And your
these insights into practice. And your work with this project represents
work with this project represents something of me banging my head against
something of me banging my head against the wall with this question of yes it's
the wall with this question of yes it's not all about making things legible like
not all about making things legible like you need direct mentor mentee master
you need direct mentor mentee master apprentice learning and we can't just
apprentice learning and we can't just expect to learn everything online. We
expect to learn everything online. We need to understand the context rather
need to understand the context rather than just airdrop some kind of solution
than just airdrop some kind of solution into somebody's problem. And we have an
into somebody's problem. And we have an opportunity now that I think humankind
opportunity now that I think humankind is kind of fumbling again to make it
is kind of fumbling again to make it easier to understand
easier to understand how to relate the wisdom, the
how to relate the wisdom, the relationality
relationality that emerges in one context to another.
that emerges in one context to another. Biomimicry is a great example of this
Biomimicry is a great example of this broadly. It's like obviously the flipper
broadly. It's like obviously the flipper of a humpback whale is a very different
of a humpback whale is a very different context from the bumps on the wing of a
context from the bumps on the wing of a jetliner that prevent turbulence. And
jetliner that prevent turbulence. And yet somebody saw the analogy. And so
yet somebody saw the analogy. And so what I'm most curious about is like
what I'm most curious about is like where do you have hope or where do you
where do you have hope or where do you see good examples of this kind of
see good examples of this kind of structured understanding
structured understanding where what works in one context is not
where what works in one context is not merely just subsumed is held in its
merely just subsumed is held in its context and yet still becomes a lesson
context and yet still becomes a lesson in some other context that can be fit
in some other context that can be fit for its own bespoke purposes. like how
for its own bespoke purposes. like how are we doing that right or how could we
are we doing that right or how could we be doing that right? Yeah, I hope that
be doing that right? Yeah, I hope that makes sense.
makes sense. >> Yeah, I guess one of the most
>> Yeah, I guess one of the most interesting things for me that's also
interesting things for me that's also coming out of the web 3 world but not
coming out of the web 3 world but not technology specifically is just the idea
technology specifically is just the idea of protocols and this move away from
of protocols and this move away from rules and into protocols. I guess what
rules and into protocols. I guess what that means is we're so used to governing
that means is we're so used to governing by rules. you can do this, you can't do
by rules. you can do this, you can't do this. But a a protocol is a more
this. But a a protocol is a more flexible structure for coordination. And
flexible structure for coordination. And we're seeing protocols being implemented
we're seeing protocols being implemented through web3 technology and a big
through web3 technology and a big conversation around protocols over
conversation around protocols over platforms and how do you free data and
platforms and how do you free data and free information and free knowledge from
free information and free knowledge from the constraints of platforms like
the constraints of platforms like Facebook and Instagram and be able to
Facebook and Instagram and be able to actually use that data and use that
actually use that data and use that knowledge in different kinds of ways
knowledge in different kinds of ways that fit the particular context. or fit
that fit the particular context. or fit the needs of the person or don't have to
the needs of the person or don't have to be constrained in this digital gardens.
be constrained in this digital gardens. But that lesson also applies far beyond
But that lesson also applies far beyond that in how we govern spaces, how we
that in how we govern spaces, how we govern the comments or how we might
govern the comments or how we might think about what you're saying
think about what you're saying translating learnings to other spaces. A
translating learnings to other spaces. A useful kind of concept around protocols
useful kind of concept around protocols is not just a a technological
is not just a a technological structure that allows us to speak the
structure that allows us to speak the same language even if we're not within
same language even if we're not within the same organization or same container
the same organization or same container and actually communicate things across
and actually communicate things across containers. But also a protocol might be
containers. But also a protocol might be what's our approach to governing our
what's our approach to governing our watershed? How do we govern our current
watershed? How do we govern our current comments? What are the protocols that we
comments? What are the protocols that we put in place to ensure conflict
put in place to ensure conflict resolution or ensure that certain kinds
resolution or ensure that certain kinds of groups or certain kinds of people are
of groups or certain kinds of people are using the watershed in a regenerative
using the watershed in a regenerative way according to the principles of how
way according to the principles of how we govern our commons and these kind of
we govern our commons and these kind of protocol structures can be shared and
protocol structures can be shared and can be translated into other kinds of
can be translated into other kinds of spaces. so replicated. I think it's
spaces. so replicated. I think it's really valuable this idea of how do we
really valuable this idea of how do we think about our technology and our
think about our technology and our social structures as protocols that
social structures as protocols that don't just exist within a closed off
don't just exist within a closed off space or are really rigid but as
space or are really rigid but as building blocks for technology for
building blocks for technology for institutions that can be used here and
institutions that can be used here and then translated to another kind of space
then translated to another kind of space and adapted for that space. This then
and adapted for that space. This then allows us to think about those kinds of
allows us to think about those kinds of fractal structures that we were talking
fractal structures that we were talking about. So whether it's on social media,
about. So whether it's on social media, how are we using those building blocks
how are we using those building blocks to actually connect to these bigger and
to actually connect to these bigger and bigger streams and rivers? But the same
bigger streams and rivers? But the same with local governance. How can we use
with local governance. How can we use protocols to create flexible structures
protocols to create flexible structures where we can govern locally or at the
where we can govern locally or at the community level, at the city level, at
community level, at the city level, at the country level or at the bio-regional
the country level or at the bio-regional level without imposing rigid structures
level without imposing rigid structures but actually flexible structures that
but actually flexible structures that can allow for coordination and be
can allow for coordination and be adapted to other places without creating
adapted to other places without creating these rigid singular kind of systems
these rigid singular kind of systems that we see now. So that for me is a
that we see now. So that for me is a really interesting idea that is
really interesting idea that is applicable to lots of different spaces
applicable to lots of different spaces and is very much growing now as a
and is very much growing now as a philosophy of how do we design
philosophy of how do we design technology and how do we design our
technology and how do we design our social systems and I think that's going
social systems and I think that's going to be really important as we develop our
to be really important as we develop our understanding of how can we transition
understanding of how can we transition to new kinds of systems.
to new kinds of systems. >> So what are your favorite protocols?
>> So what are your favorite protocols? >> What are my favorite protocols? I'm just
>> What are my favorite protocols? I'm just really interested in common's governance
really interested in common's governance in particular. How do we collectively
in particular. How do we collectively govern resources without imposing a
govern resources without imposing a hierarchy? I'm particularly interested
hierarchy? I'm particularly interested in how common's governance protocols
in how common's governance protocols create structures that can be
create structures that can be self-governed by the community. So if
self-governed by the community. So if you have a forest for example defining
you have a forest for example defining how much can be taken from the forest or
how much can be taken from the forest or who can take what and the whole
who can take what and the whole community kind of being in charge of how
community kind of being in charge of how those principles are being adhered to
those principles are being adhered to and how that requires trust and belief
and how that requires trust and belief from the whole community that the
from the whole community that the process will benefit them over time and
process will benefit them over time and also commitment to actually enforce the
also commitment to actually enforce the rules and enforce the protocols between
rules and enforce the protocols between community members or phase exclusion
community members or phase exclusion from the protocol or from the community.
from the protocol or from the community. Yeah, I guess this is the last big chunk
Yeah, I guess this is the last big chunk of this which is the question of
of this which is the question of enforcement. again when I was talking
enforcement. again when I was talking with Christina Bowen off record about
with Christina Bowen off record about the protocols that she saw discussed
the protocols that she saw discussed last year at DEB for creating something
last year at DEB for creating something like the benefits of a corporate
like the benefits of a corporate structure for public goods projects. It
structure for public goods projects. It had to be about access to being included
had to be about access to being included in that collective effort. you know,
in that collective effort. you know, like you start again with a value system
like you start again with a value system and signing on to or breaking those
and signing on to or breaking those values had to be enforced by some kind
values had to be enforced by some kind of war chest for legal defense. And so
of war chest for legal defense. And so it always gets back to this question of
it always gets back to this question of if we think back to like in the first
if we think back to like in the first half of the 20th century, it was
half of the 20th century, it was actually the conservatives in American
actually the conservatives in American politics who were behind the creation
politics who were behind the creation and support of the national parks
and support of the national parks system. That's an instance of where the
system. That's an instance of where the people with the money to protect those
people with the money to protect those spaces had the power to do so. The last
spaces had the power to do so. The last piece of this that I want to explore
piece of this that I want to explore with you is in Manda Scott's book, Any
with you is in Manda Scott's book, Any Human Power, she has this changemakers
Human Power, she has this changemakers movement and their motto is power to
movement and their motto is power to wisdom, wisdom to power. And so it gets
wisdom, wisdom to power. And so it gets back to where we started in this
back to where we started in this conversation about the wisdom to power
conversation about the wisdom to power part, right? Like I think we spent a lot
part, right? Like I think we spent a lot of time on the opposite end of the Mobia
of time on the opposite end of the Mobia strip about power to wisdom in some
strip about power to wisdom in some sense about how to create the support
sense about how to create the support for right action. And in January of
for right action. And in January of 2025, for me anyway, it's more a
2025, for me anyway, it's more a question of the incitement of that great
question of the incitement of that great desire, how to take high agency
desire, how to take high agency individuals and organizations
individuals and organizations and inspire an expanded sphere of care
and inspire an expanded sphere of care in the use of all of the power that has
in the use of all of the power that has condensated into them. So yeah, it's
condensated into them. So yeah, it's just it's it's very easy for people at a
just it's it's very easy for people at a local level to say we care about the
local level to say we care about the forest, but we're not getting to set the
forest, but we're not getting to set the rules because we have to eat. And so we
rules because we have to eat. And so we have to make the choice. And there are
have to make the choice. And there are few examples that of which I am aware of
few examples that of which I am aware of systems that have managed to square the
systems that have managed to square the circle with this. The one that I'm
circle with this. The one that I'm always coming back to is Regen Network
always coming back to is Regen Network and how their tokenization system allows
and how their tokenization system allows people who are land stewards to
people who are land stewards to determine what metrics actually matter
determine what metrics actually matter to the health of that land and then make
to the health of that land and then make that something that can be speculated
that something that can be speculated on, can be invested in with the
on, can be invested in with the necessary partition that prevents it
necessary partition that prevents it from getting captured in the way that
from getting captured in the way that carbon has been appropriated by the
carbon has been appropriated by the carbon market system. So without a
carbon market system. So without a revolution, we get back to this question
revolution, we get back to this question that's kind of at the heart of this,
that's kind of at the heart of this, which is like if you feel like your
which is like if you feel like your attention is scattered, that you're like
attention is scattered, that you're like doom scrolling all the time, what is
doom scrolling all the time, what is that first step along the path to
that first step along the path to reclaiming the self-determination of
reclaiming the self-determination of your attention at even just the level of
your attention at even just the level of one person at a time is like the same
one person at a time is like the same question. How do we regenerate
question. How do we regenerate regulatory power? Well, it takes some
regulatory power? Well, it takes some amount of wisdom to do so at the level
amount of wisdom to do so at the level of the decision maker or like a
of the decision maker or like a reentering of decision-m authority into
reentering of decision-m authority into like I don't have to look at my phone. I
like I don't have to look at my phone. I don't have to make this exchangeable
don't have to make this exchangeable with the dollar. I don't have to sell
with the dollar. I don't have to sell the forest off to become a plantation.
the forest off to become a plantation. Where do you see that process start? I
Where do you see that process start? I guess for me it's a lot harder to think
guess for me it's a lot harder to think about what we do want than what we don't
about what we do want than what we don't want. But that's the necessary step.
want. But that's the necessary step. It's I think it's about at the
It's I think it's about at the individual level rather than saying I
individual level rather than saying I don't need to look at my phone saying
don't need to look at my phone saying what are the things that I want to be
what are the things that I want to be paying attention to and why and how can
paying attention to and why and how can I replace this unhealthy habit with that
I replace this unhealthy habit with that healthier habit? How can I reconnect to
healthier habit? How can I reconnect to the things that I value? So actually on
the things that I value? So actually on the individual level I would say start
the individual level I would say start by getting clear on the values and how
by getting clear on the values and how those values translate into actions and
those values translate into actions and actually replacing
actually replacing the action with an action that actually
the action with an action that actually aligns with the values even if it's on a
aligns with the values even if it's on a small level. At the bigger scale it's
small level. At the bigger scale it's difficult. How do we actually get these
difficult. How do we actually get these ideas into places of power at this
ideas into places of power at this crucial moment? But it's also I think
crucial moment? But it's also I think about creating alternatives and not just
about creating alternatives and not just imagining alternatives but actually
imagining alternatives but actually trying to demonstrate alternatives in
trying to demonstrate alternatives in the real world even if it's on the small
the real world even if it's on the small scale. So actually creating lived
scale. So actually creating lived experiments of the things that we want
experiments of the things that we want that actually reflect our values and
that actually reflect our values and growing those experiments and involving
growing those experiments and involving other people in those experiments so
other people in those experiments so people can see and experience different
people can see and experience different kinds of values in action. For me,
kinds of values in action. For me, that's the most important thing because
that's the most important thing because I think right now it's really hard to
I think right now it's really hard to see what a different kind of world would
see what a different kind of world would look like. And imagining it is not
look like. And imagining it is not enough. I think for me it's about living
enough. I think for me it's about living it even if it's on a small scale and a
it even if it's on a small scale and a small level and being able to grow those
small level and being able to grow those experiments until they're able to
experiments until they're able to showcase on a bigger scale what a
showcase on a bigger scale what a different kind of system would look
different kind of system would look like. So in closing because you've
like. So in closing because you've already set the term the parameter that
already set the term the parameter that it's not enough to simply imagine I like
it's not enough to simply imagine I like to ask people more or less the question
to ask people more or less the question that you're inviting which is if you can
that you're inviting which is if you can do anything if we start rather than from
do anything if we start rather than from asking how can we do more starting from
asking how can we do more starting from the assumption what if we could do
the assumption what if we could do anything what will you do what matters
anything what will you do what matters what matters to you in terms of the most
what matters to you in terms of the most desirable future constrained by you have
desirable future constrained by you have to see it working somewhere already even
to see it working somewhere already even at a small scale. What is the thing that
at a small scale. What is the thing that you can venture to desire for the world
you can venture to desire for the world that might be tiny and unobvious to
that might be tiny and unobvious to other people now, but you can imagine
other people now, but you can imagine becoming something that more and more
becoming something that more and more people can stand behind and foster and
people can stand behind and foster and encourage. I think just building
encourage. I think just building relationships, starting to build
relationships, starting to build relationships with your neighbors, with
relationships with your neighbors, with the people around you, actually build
the people around you, actually build these networks of relationships and not
these networks of relationships and not just with the people that are your
just with the people that are your friends, but people who you share a
friends, but people who you share a place with and being able to communicate
place with and being able to communicate across boundaries by creating networks
across boundaries by creating networks of place because it all starts without.
of place because it all starts without. It starts with these relationships and
It starts with these relationships and building trust. Another important thing
building trust. Another important thing is learning with others. So not just
is learning with others. So not just learning but how can you create new
learning but how can you create new kinds of relationships through what
kinds of relationships through what you're learning and understand together
you're learning and understand together what are small things that you can do in
what are small things that you can do in your place to actually address some
your place to actually address some small problem or just bring people
small problem or just bring people together around an idea. And I think
together around an idea. And I think some of the most interesting experiments
some of the most interesting experiments that actually bring these ideas to life
that actually bring these ideas to life that I've seen have just started with a
that I've seen have just started with a community garden or a small group that's
community garden or a small group that's been kind of building momentum around
been kind of building momentum around how do we protect our watershed. So, I
how do we protect our watershed. So, I think just getting involved with your
think just getting involved with your communities, with your place, or like I
communities, with your place, or like I say in reing digital social spaces, just
say in reing digital social spaces, just diving deep into rabbit holes and
diving deep into rabbit holes and following your intuition and trying to
following your intuition and trying to rebuild your information landscape in
rebuild your information landscape in ways that come from you and not the
ways that come from you and not the platforms that you're on. So I think all
platforms that you're on. So I think all of these are small things that can
of these are small things that can exponentially grow and become a lot more
exponentially grow and become a lot more important in how we develop
important in how we develop alternatives.
alternatives. >> That would be more people have
>> That would be more people have relationships with their neighbors,
relationships with their neighbors, people understand where they live, more
people understand where they live, more people work together in small and
people work together in small and dependable spaces. I can get behind
dependable spaces. I can get behind that. So anyway, Andrea, thank you for
that. So anyway, Andrea, thank you for riffing at length with me and thank you
riffing at length with me and thank you for putting together such a thorough and
for putting together such a thorough and well ststructured living document on all
well ststructured living document on all of this that I really encourage people
of this that I really encourage people to explore. It's a good rabbit hole.
to explore. It's a good rabbit hole. >> Absolutely. It's been a great rabbit
>> Absolutely. It's been a great rabbit hole for me. I mean for me building that
hole for me. I mean for me building that knowledge base has been my own way to
knowledge base has been my own way to rew my attention and remake myself,
rew my attention and remake myself, remake my identity and also the things
remake my identity and also the things that I bring into the world, my
that I bring into the world, my creativity, my work. So yeah, just
creativity, my work. So yeah, just building things is I think the best way
building things is I think the best way to go, whether that's a digital garden
to go, whether that's a digital garden or a real garden, bringing things into
or a real garden, bringing things into the world that actually reflect new
the world that actually reflect new kinds of values.
kinds of values. >> Thanks again.
>> Thanks again. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> Thanks again for listening. Humans on
>> Thanks again for listening. Humans on the loop is a labor of love. If you want
the loop is a labor of love. If you want more of this in the world, consider
more of this in the world, consider becoming a member at
becoming a member at michaelgarfield.substack.com.
michaelgarfield.substack.com. or much more intimate and fruitful. Hire
or much more intimate and fruitful. Hire me to help you and your team reframe
me to help you and your team reframe your work and make better sense of this
your work and make better sense of this age of intense transformation. You can
age of intense transformation. You can send me an email or book a discovery
send me an email or book a discovery call at michaelgarfield.net.
call at michaelgarfield.net. And stay tuned. New essays are on the
And stay tuned. New essays are on the way along with a total ripper of a yarn
way along with a total ripper of a yarn with William Morgan of Restless Egg on
with William Morgan of Restless Egg on disrupting the world of tech ventures in
disrupting the world of tech ventures in service of a flourishing avantgard.
service of a flourishing avantgard. Until then, remember the shape of
Until then, remember the shape of reality is carved by the flows of our
reality is carved by the flows of our attention. So pay attention to where
attention. So pay attention to where your attention is flowing.
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