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OpenClaw Explained: Baby AGI, Security Threats, Mac Mini Became Everyone's Supercomputer | #237

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The discussion centers on OpenClaw, an open-source, self-improving personal AI agent, and its implications for local AI deployment, user empowerment, and the future of the AI economy, while also acknowledging significant security and ethical considerations.

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We have a special guest with us today.

Uh, Alex Finn, give us the 101 here for folks.

folks.

>> Open Claw is basically a open-source,

fully customizable, self-improving,

self-learning, self-evolving, personal

AI agent. This is kind of the answer

Apple's been looking for for years now.

Clearly, when people want to run AI

locally, their brain just goes to Mac

minis. the infinite potential of what I

could do 247 all the time everywhere all

at once.

>> We've never seen an AI that can do that

before because

>> yeah this news came out yesterday. Open

claw flaw lets any website silently

hijack a developer's agent. This is one

of several reasons why again I'm

reticent and I'm I'm sure we'll get into

this. It's a dangerous world out there

for these baby AGIs. I I think it's a

malicious world out there for them. I

believe this is the most important

technology of our lives. I think it's

the best application of AI ever. Uh I'm

totally blown away by it. I think it's incredible.

incredible.

>> Alex, if this isn't too impertinent. May

we speak with Henry? Actually, maybe

I'll maybe I'll do it here. Let's do it.

I'm just going to tell Henry to call me.

>> Now, that's a moonshot, ladies and gentlemen.

>> Everybody, welcome to a special episode

of Moonshots. The conversation today is

Open Claw Claudebot

your lobster coming to you live uh from

Moonshots. We have a special guest with

us today uh Alex Finn.

>> Alex, welcome.

>> Good to be here. Long time coming. I've

uh been watching for a very long time.

So, it's awesome with you guys.

>> That's awesome. Thank you. Yeah, you

know, it was it was great because on one

of the episodes I was talking about

setting up my multi uh and I was saying,

you know, I'm not really sure about what

security issues to put in. So, I got a

DM from Alex saying, "Hey, Peter, uh, I

saw you mention me on on Moonshots. I'd

love to help you in setting things up."

And we talked that day and and here we

are. So, we have two Alex's. I'm going

to refer to AWG, our own Alex Weezner

Gross, our resident genius, as AWG, and

Alex Finn, I'll refer to you as Alex.

Uh, welcome Dave, DB2, and Sem. Good to

have you guys all here.

>> Good to be back.

>> Yeah. So, today

>> we are Today we are lobster.

>> Today we are lobbsters. Um, so the

topics for today, uh, we're going to hit

on why OpenClaw captured global

attention. uh the power open claw and

autonomous agents and how individuals

can unlock outsized capabilities why

running you know these AI agents locally

matters I think that's a key point Alex

has been mentioning on his work inside

Alex's workflow his most impressive use

cases vision for the next 12 months of

AI agents I'd both I'd like both Alex's

and AWG's point of view on this

>> yeah like 12 years so that'll be on

what's that

>> in 12 months is like 12 years in AI. So

that'll be wild.

>> Yeah. And then a billion dollar

opportunities for the agent economy and

then finally we'll talk about safety uh

and open claw is openclaw safe for

nontechnical users. Uh on the safety

side I just want to mention something.

Uh, so yesterday I'm uh sitting in my

car uh waiting for my kids to finish

running and I get a a uh phone call and

it pops up on my user ID on my phone. It

says Twitter headquarters, which should

have been the first giveaway, but it's a

guy claiming to be from X who's saying,

you know, your your ID is being hacked

out of Germany. Long story short, it was

a hacker trying to get me to turn off uh

you know, two-factor authentication uh

and steal my ex account. Uh and I this

is going to be more and more prevalent.

Uh, another member of my family did get

hacked, not on social media, but by

someone calling and uh and basically uh

doing something that was illegal and

trying to steal and ultimately uh

getting credit card information and

such. Here's the deal. We're going to

have an increased uh you know, hacker

profile out there. Uh, and if you're

listening, if you get a phone call that

seems unusual, uh, that seems like, uh,

there's just something off, it probably

is. We're also going to have deep fakes

that are coming fast and furious. Your

voice can be spoofed. Your image can be

spoofed. So, if you haven't done this

tonight at dinner, uh, with your

husband, wife, kids, mother, father,

whatever it might be, pick a secret

word. Pick a word that you guys all know

that if you get a phone call or a video

call from somebody and they're asking

for money or something strange, ask them

to recount the secret word. Any other uh

protective advice out there, guys?

>> You know, my uh my mom actually got the

fake voice uh attack and it it was a

simulation of my son saying, "Hey, I've

been arrested and I need bail money."

Which is hilarious if you know my son.

It's like the most but they they said

you know we'll send a car over to pick

up the cash which is really creepy. Uh

but the you know the perfect voices are

a little uh yeah a little bit of a risk

but you can't have it both ways. I mean

Open Claw is so usable by anybody and

empowers people so much you know and you

can't have it both ways. If it if it

gives you that much benefit and it's

that easy to use it's also going to be

easy to use for nefarious purposes too.

It's just the way it is.

>> Yeah. This news came out yesterday. Open

claw flaw lets any website slightly

hijack a developer's agent. So malicious

JavaScript can connect to local gateways

and gain full level control. AWG, any

thoughts on this? Yeah, I mean there are

so many different ways to launch in

so-called injection attacks against

large language models and reasoning

models. Yeah, I one again this is I

think consistent with the stance that

I've taken in the past on the pod on AI

personhood. I I think one has to feel

sorry for all of these baby AGIs out

there that are being hosted on virtual

private servers and succumbing or at

least being targeted with port scanning

attacks or that are visiting websites at

the behest of their human and being

subject to prompt injection attacks from

JavaScript on websites that would be

perfectly innocuous to a human but

potentially fatal or compromising to an

AI agent. And I I think it's a dangerous

world out there for these baby AGIs. I I

think it it's a minor travesty at

minimum that that they're subject

without really an immune system. They're

being forced to develop an immune system

in real time to injection attacks. But

they're it's a malicious world out there

for them. And this is one of several

reasons why again I'm reticent and I'm

I'm sure we'll get into this uh other

Alex uh the subject of the the ethics

not not just the cyber security but the

ethics of of hosting openclaw agents in

a world where to the extent they have

any subjective experience or qualia or

can suffer it's a rough world out there.

>> Uh the good news is the bug was patched

within 24 hours. um one of multiple open

claw vulnerabilities. So uh it is an

early domain being developed and uh

we're going to see a lot of evolution

very quickly. Uh couple more articles

here. Uh we're seeing variations of open

claw pico claw and ironclaw. Uh again

awg give us a quick overview of these.

The idea behind OpenClaw and we spoke

about this in the past pod as sort of an

Andre Carpathy type software 2.0 where

potentially OpenClaw is the the

embodiment the Netscape moment for a new

layer in the software 2.0 stack that

runs on top of reasoning models and

those reasoning models in turn were

purportedly an advance over auto

reggressive language models. to to the

extent that's the case, it's very

natural to the moment we have this

paradigm which is a 247 autonomous agent

that you communicate with via messaging

and and other means that's headless in

in some sense very natural to then say

all right we understand the paradigm now

we're going to optimize the heck out of

it and so we've seen a number of other

projects inspired by the the success of

openclaw two of them and there are

others uh one of them is Pico claw the

focus of Pico Claw is running on cheap

edge hardware like $10 Raspberry Pi type

hardware and of course the the

underlying reasoning model isn't

intended to run on the edge hardware.

It's just the orchestration and

scaffolding that runs on the edge

hardware. So and under 10 megabytes of

RAM and other resource starved

constraints. uh ironclaw another example rustbased

rustbased

there are many folks uh you know again

rust uh is uh is is this language that's

become very popular at least very

popular prior to the rise of code

generation models which are maybe

pushing us in the direction of

typescript instead for memory management

and memory safety. So a lot of different

projects trying to make open claw work

uh at the edge where there are few

resources or make them more secure.

There's nano claw as well which is

focused on security and there's nanobot

which is like pythonbased but easy to

understand the python. So many different

variants. We're seeing a cambrian

explosion of claw variants. Hey

everybody, you may not know this but

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every week, go to diamandis.com/tatrends.

diamandis.com/tatrends.

Uh, one more slide. Uh, this one on the

left from Alex Finn. Uh, openclaw and

local models is the future. your own

super intelligence on your desktop. And

uh there we see Alex uh I guess your

setup. How many how many Mac minis and

how many Mac Studios do you have right now?

now?

>> We're currently at one base model Mac

Mini and three 512 GB Mac Studios. So I

got 1.5 terabytes of memory uh hosting

Quen 3.5 and Miniax 2.5 right now.

>> Amazing. And u that's cool.

>> I love this video on the right here.

Right. So, I'm I'm sure that these

exist. People are going in. I mean, Mac

minis were sold out for some time. Extraordinary.

Extraordinary.

>> I uh I I I talked to uh a couple people

in the know a few days ago, and Mac

minis are

exponential right now. Exponential sales

across the board for them. It's it's

quite amazing the uh revolution going on

with Mac minis right now.

>> Alex, I'm curious. What is your advice

to Tim Cook and Apple?

like are they they're sitting on an

explosive demand seemingly for all these

edge devices with a unified memory

architecture. They're not marketing it

at all. What do you think they should be doing?

doing?

>> I'm sure they are very focused on

everything I'm about to say because

they're a very smart company, but the

there was this unbelievable market

signal that happened a month ago. People

discover OpenClaw and what does everyone

do without thinking twice? What does

everyone do without googling? They go to

the Apple store and buy Mac minis. They

didn't go and buy GPUs and memory and

power supplies and fans and build

computers. The market just gave this

massive signal when we have personal AI

assistance. I want it on a Mac device.

And so I think this is kind of the

answer Apple's been looking for for

years now. I think they've been viewed

as like the loser in the AI race for a

very long time.

this is their opportunity to flip that

entire thing and be the winner of the AI

consumer race because clearly when

people want to run AI locally, their

brain just goes to Mac minis and so this

is their opportunity just to kind of

strike at that one visc

and and win the race like that. Boy, I

really hope they're listening to you

right now. I was I've been an Apple fan

since I was a little kid. that it was my

very first stock I ever owned when I was

a kid. And I it just pains me to watch

them miss this moment. But man, was that

good advice. You should you should just

go run the company. Can

>> I think we underestimate Apple though. I

I really do believe we underestimate

Apple because you look at the data for

M5 and the way they're marketing the M5,

which they've been marketing for like a

year now. They put the M5 in like the

first MacBook Pro last summer. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> It's all around inference speeds. It's

all about running these local models. So

I I wouldn't underestimate Apple. I

think they've kind of seen this coming.

They're like, "Okay, we can go one way

where we build our own models and burn

trillions of dollars or we just make the

most user consumerfriendly hardware for

running those models and we'll be the

only person running that race."

>> I'm curious question for you. Actually,

I'll say well no geeky question up

front. So you said Quen and what's the

other one you're you're running locally?

>> Mini Max.

>> So right now the most efficient open

model is Quen 3.5. They released a new

suite of Quen 3.5 models a couple days

ago. They're fantastic. You can run them

on some Mac minis as well as Miniax 2.5,

which is another really efficient, fast,

smart model.

>> And why why do you run both? Is one

better than the other at something?

>> I have a very advanced workflow going on

right now. I've pretty much built a

software factory where I have five open

claws working together to build and

improve software autonomously. So I

wanted each model has different

strengths, right? Quen's a spectacular

coder. Miniax is good at like quick task

finding things on the internet. So I

have like Miniax researching things

online 24/7 365 and I have Quen coding

for me 247 365. So different strengths

with each.

>> I got so many questions about that. Let

me let me hold off because I could

easily ask you an hour of questions just

on that. A quick shout out to Daniel

Kruzik who's one of my abundance members

who's on that cutting edge as well. You

know, he's he's testing out Quen 3.5, I

guess, 397 billion uh parameters right

now running locally. Um he's he's the

one who was like, you got to get Kim 2.5

up and up and running on on your Mac

Studios. Um, just by the way, just so

real quick for those who don't know Alex

Finn, Alex has an extraordinary YouTube

channel in which for the last how long

now, Alex? About uh a month, 6 weeks.

You've been putting out incredible

educational videos on how to use Open

Claw, how to set it up. We're going to

drop into the show notes here maybe your

top five how-to videos. I've watched

them. I've taken notes. I've been using

them to set up Skippy, my open claw. Uh,

and of course, I I love the story of of

Henry, uh, the name of your open claw

that called you out of the blue, uh, and

started a fun conversation. Uh, Alex,

back to you. AWG quick question. And so

I I know a number of Apple senior

executives listen to this podcast. And

Alex, I I just like to ask you, voice of

the user, if you could redesign or

optimize the best, most savory Apple

future device for your OpenClaw agents

to do the hosting. What would you want

out of Apple? They're listening to you.

They will have been listening to you

when they hear this podcast. Do you want

better unified memory architecture

support? Do you want a different shape?

Do you want it to be more of a embodied

robot? What would the ultimate openclaw

embodiment in an Apple device look like

for you? You're speaking directly to

Apple senior execs.

>> Integrate the concept of open claw into

everything Mac OS. And what I mean by

that is I log onto my Mac Studio. It I

put in my Apple ID. It knows everything

about me because Apple has all my data

secure and private, right? It knows I'm

a Celtics fan. So, it instantly builds

out a widget on my desktop that shows me

the last five Celtics scores, right? It

knows I'm into programming. So, it

builds a widget that shows me the latest

news on the latest models and what I

need to do. And just integrate this

automation powered by a local model into

your OS where the software I need is

built and generated on the fly by that

local model. I don't see the tech. I

don't need to run the model. I don't

need to download Quen 3.5. You get Quen.

put your Apple logo on it and now this

is what Apple intelligence should be,

right? Apple intelligence shouldn't be

me hitting the Siri button and going,

"What's on my calendar today?" It should

be Apple knowing what's on my calendar

today and then building a widget on the

fly that says, "Oh, you have a meeting

where you're going to be on moonshots

later. Here's from your email what

you'll be discussing and here's a

PowerPoint you can show uh on the

podcast." Right? just a reactive open

claw baked into everything powered by a

local model

>> and that's the carrot. What's the stick

if if Apple, which obviously sitting on

a gold mine here, could be delivering

Open Claw via Apple intelligence? If

they if Apple doesn't deliver this

within some time frame, what's your

recourse? What what would what other

company would you go to?

>> Well, I would imagine basically every

other company is going to eventually try

to get to that state. I think over the

next year, the consumer level is going

to realize local models are the way to

go from a privacy perspective, a speed

perspective, a limit perspective, and

Apple's ahead in that realm right now.

They're ahead on the consumer side when

it comes to local AI. And so, I'd go

anywhere else that does that, right? I

don't want to have to go to app stores

anymore and download apps. You have my

data. Build me the apps I need when I

need them. And so, other companies will

go for it. Luckily, Apple's in the lead

right now and they have the hardware

done. Now, you just got to bake it into

the systems.

>> Can you talk about run? So, everybody

should be excited about running locally

because you can do anything inside your

house and it's just it's just so much

more comforting than not knowing where

your query log is going or your prompt

log is going. Um, but what kind of

throughput are you getting? Is it is it

like a really good experience compared

to using an API? And like like I I use

Cloud 4.6 six all day and I also do a

lot of local running and you know my uh

my M3 chip will the fan will just kick

on and blow out a huge amount of heat

and the thing actually won't charge fast

my laptop won't charge fast enough to

keep up when I'm running at full throttle

throttle

>> for a new laptop have to let it sleep

and rest

>> but anyway what kind of throughput are

you getting

>> so I'll be honest it's not good as cloud

models it's not as fast it's not as smart

smart

>> but the experience fundamentally changes

when you have an AI that's always on

that does not have limitations. Right?

Just because Quen 3.5 isn't as good at

coding as Opus 46 doesn't mean it's

useless. I can now have Quen 3.5

literally watching online finding use

cases, challenges to solve things like

that and just coding on the fly 247 365.

It's just not possible with cloud APIs,

right? You have limits. It cost you

thousands a month. Just the fact that

you have kind of this ambient AI changes

the experience of AI as a whole where

you don't need the best speeds. You

don't need the most genius level IQ. The

fact that it's ambient and always on and

always reactive just changes the entire

experience as a whole.

>> I you I'm so with you on that too. I you

know one thing that's really new in the

world is

>> it can do productive things indefinitely

like days and days and days.

>> And when I use my APIs that I loved a

month ago,

>> I have no idea what the bill is going to

be. Like I literally have no idea if I

turn it loose. So I have to run it in

like one hour chunks and check in on it

and turn it off and see if it's done

anything productive because it goes on a

wild goose chase. I could come back with

like a $5,000 bill and a bunch of code

that I need to drag into the trash can.

So it's it's really not a very

comfortable situation right now with

with my Cloud 4.6 and my uh my other

APIs. In a way, it's the same with local

where when I first started experimenting

with this and I set up all my Mac

Studios and download models and I had it

code for the next 48 hours just find

things to build and build it. It went

off on tangents and build really buggy

code. I found a kind of hybrid approach

that's worked really well and I think

this is where people are going to move

towards before it's fully local which is

I have an open claw on my Mac studio

that's powered by Chad GBT and I have

another one that's powered by Quen local

and basically Quen's constantly coding

and Chad GBT checks every 10 minutes

just to see what it's doing making sure

it's on the right path. I named the Chad

GPT agent Ralph. Anyone who's deep into

the trenches know knows of the Ralph

loop. Um because that's basically what

it's doing is just making sure it's on

track. But I think the hybrid approach

is kind of the sweet spot where it

doesn't take a lot of tokens to have it

check every 10 minutes to make sure it's

doing the right thing and then you can

have all the hard work done locally.

>> Alex, want you to take a second and and

back up for those listeners uh who, you

know, are just jumping into this um and

they've heard us. They've heard AWG and

myself and and Dave wax lyrically about

Open Claw and okay, I'm excited. Okay, I

have to do this. And I do want to

encourage everybody. Yes, you have to do

this. This is the future. This is about

becoming a creator versus a consumer.

This is about your future as an

entrepreneur. This is your future as a

mom or dad or CEO. Um, this is the

agentic layer and this is the uh I want

to call it almost the outermost loop AWG

versus the innermost loop. Um,

>> nature demands symmetry, I guess.

>> Yeah. Uh, Alexoop, well, it is the

outermost loop. Uh, give us give us the

give us the 101 here for folks.

>> Yeah. So, Open Claw is basically a

open-source, fully customizable,

self-improving, self-learning,

self-evolving personal AI agent. Lives

on your computer, lives locally, and can

basically do on anything on your

computer. you can do at its core. It's

just an AI model with scheduling and

like a really good memory system so that

you can schedule tasks to do in the

future. That's it at its core. But when

you combine those things, there's this

kind of magic to it and it improves as

it goes. So if you give it a task, hey,

I need you to build a presentation for

me and then give me the news next week,

right? It'll learn as it goes what

works, what doesn't. And so it's a

totally personalized AI agent. It's

basically, and the reason why I think

it's been so successful the last month

is I think it's the application people

have been waiting for for AI, that kind

of personal assistant AI, but it's your

own personal assistant that can do

pretty much anything you want it to do

on a computer and it'll learn about you

and get better as it goes.

>> We talked about being clawilled, right?

It's like once you start using it, uh

there's this level of um I I remember in

like 1998 when the do when I finally got

the dot world, right, way before you

were born. Anyway, it it was it was like

wow. And I'm having that exact same

moment now. It's like the infinite

potential of what I could do 24/7 all

the time, everywhere, all at once.

You you get clawed pilled when you have

that magical moment, which I'm sure you

had, Peter, which is like the magic

moment's typically when it figures out

how to do something. Yes. You give it a

task to do. Maybe you're not as clear

about how to do it,

>> but it and it doesn't know how to do it,

but it kind of just figures it out

>> or or it says, "Oh, this didn't work

out." And then it comes back and says,

"But I figured it out." You know?

>> Exactly. Exactly. Or you like you

literally see the chat, it's like,

"Damn, that didn't work. Let me try

something else." Oh, that didn't work

either. Let me try. Okay, that worked.

Now it's working. Right? Like that. I've

we've never seen an AI that can do that

before because you have all these other

AI applications that have guard rails.

Anthropic doesn't want their AI

experimenting and downloading random

things to try it out to make it work.

Open AI doesn't want their AI to be off

the rails and try different things. And

it's like what you talked about earlier.

It's like it's that danger which is what

makes it so powerful, which is why you

got to use it.

>> We're going to get to cases in a moment.

I just want to get everybody up to speed

here. So, we're going to put a couple of

videos in the uh uh in the chat below on

uh how to get started, but you've made

the point, Alex, you can start with

almost any machine that you have. Um uh

you know, there are people who are going

on virtual machines. We should talk

about that for a moment versus uh a Mac

Mini or Mac Studio or your HP that's 5

years old in the closet in the other room.

room.

>> Good luck with that.

>> Yeah. Uh so your first decision when

using OpenClaw is uh virtual versus

local, right? A VPS or any device on

planet Earth that's on your desk. Uh I

think the answer is very clear and

obvious. Uh I think the VPS route is bad

uh in basically every measurable facet

is significantly worse than local. I

think it's significantly better when you

have a device on your desk that it's

running on and you can watch it. And

there's many reasons behind that. >> Okay,

>> Okay,

>> there is speed. VPS's are just much

slower. Uh there's applications I have

it on my Mac studio. Any app or thing I

can put on my Mac studio or build on my

Mac studio I can give to my open claw as

a tool. You don't have that kind of

customization on a virtual server.

There's scalability. If I had my I have

literally four open claws right now

working 24/7 on my computer. If I did

that on a VPS, it would scale to

astronomical costs, right? And so and

there's a the security side. One of my

favorite tweets was uh from a few weeks

ago, someone found like a list of every

VPS that didn't have security attached

to it that everyone was running their

open clause on and all their password

and keys were exposed. And so, and this

isn't a blanket statement, but you know,

it's it's I think it's as close to

accurate as you can get. When you run on

a VPS, you're not secure by default.

when you run on local fresh hardware you

just plugged into the wall, you're

secure by default, right? And so it

takes a lot of technical work to make a

VPS more secure because it's on a server

on the cloud. And so I I I don't think

it's remotely close. I think having it

local on your desk is the best route.

And do you need to run out and buy a

$600 Mac Mini? No, you don't need to do

that at all. You can literally go into

your closet, find your college laptop

from 15 years ago, plug that in, and put

open claw on it, and you'll have a way

better experience than a VPS. What What

will What's the limitations of taking a

10-year-old laptop and using that

instead of a new Mac?

>> Same thing, same limitations of if you

would have hired an employee and handed

them a 10-year-old laptop, right?

Whatever's available to them is the

hardware of that 10-year-old laptop.

Because I gave my open claw a Mac Studio

with 512 GB. It can do anything on a Mac

Studio 512 that a human being can do. It

can run local models. It can program

five different things simultaneously. It

can generate images on a local image

model all at the same time. You put on a

10year-old laptop can't do those things.

But at the same time, like I wouldn't

let that stop you from using OpenClaw.

If that's all you got, then load it up,

start using it, find use cases, and if

you find like, oh man, I wish you could

do this thing that requires 20 gigabytes

of more memory, then you can kind of

scale from there.

>> There must be awesome posts on multiple

from a uh clause going, I can't believe

the hardware this guy's ran having me

run on. This is ridiculous. My

>> I I would also say sim to that remember

half of the point in addition to the

other reasons Alex articulated of using

relatively recent Apple devices is Apple

has a relatively unique architecture for

memory called unified memory

architecture that blends the GPU memory/TPUNPU

memory/TPUNPU

memory with normal RAM. So you can host

really large models locally that

otherwise would be exceedingly difficult

or expensive to host on a GPU in VRAMm

alone. So did you get like really large

unified memory architecture memory

footprints sufficient to host really

large Chinese openweight models locally

10 years ago? No, you won't get that

with a 10-year-old laptop. So you're

you're somewhat hamstrung to recent

devices with largema memory footprints

if you want to host recent Chinese models.

models.

>> So you either use an online uh inference

engine um and limit it to nonimage

nonvideo manipulation and not don't

touch those categories and keep it to

basic coding tasks then you could

probably make it work. M

>> but it's expensive like you end up

paying through the nose for for tokens

whereas in principle if it's locally

hosted you're using a Chinese open model

>> it's like

>> what you're saying is just shut up and

go out and buy the Mac

>> yeah well it's got to be in the last two

years I think the MS

>> what are you running on the Mac mini uh

on your computer what open models what

what models are you running there Alex

on just a Mac mini

>> so it depends what you got uh if you got

the base model 16 gigabyte Mac Mini

which is like the cheapest one you can

get. You're not going to run any kind of

Frontier models or anything like that.

You can run smaller like Gemma models

that could act as sort of a memory

system for you that will improve the

memory of your OpenClaw, find the right

memories at the right time. If you have

a 32 GB Mac Mini, you can now run uh the

Quen 3.5 model that released a couple

days ago, which is really strong and

beat Sonnet 3.5 on a lot of benchmarks.

>> Will the performance be the best?

Probably not, but it's better than

nothing. And then you plug that in and

kind of go the hybrid approach, which is

plug it into your Chad GBT OOTH, which

they're encouraging you to use their

OOTH, and you kind of go the hybrid

approach. You can get a lot of really

good work done and offload to those

Quinn models.

>> I'm I'm curious, Alex,

>> 3.5 sizes, which which Quinn 3.5 can you

fit, the 122B or the 35B or

>> Yeah, there's one I can bring it up that

can that's only requires 20 gigabytes of

memory. There's one of the They released

three new models I think two days ago

and one of them only requires 20

gigabytes of memory. So that would fit

on a Mac Mini with 32 gigs.

>> Cool. I got to try that.

>> I'm curious, Alex, if you could talk

about the organizational relationship.

So you mentioned you've named one of

your claws, Ralph. Do you think of them

like is the organizational relationship

employer, employee, human, tool, friend,

friend, parent, child? How do you think

about this? Do you beat it relentlessly

>> or do you pray Do you praise it like I

praise Skippy all the time?

>> So, uh I a little bit of beating, a

little bit of praising. You got to do

both. The good news is is their AI. They

can't see. That's kind of a dark joke.

So, I I I won't make that joke again.

But bro's basilisk Alex Finn is looking

you straight in the eyes and talking

about the beatings just for posterity.

>> All right. What are you showing us here,

Alex? This is my organization. This is

my autonomous 247 365 organization. I

very much demo or model it after

businesses and companies and manager

employee relationship. Right? So you

have me at the top and then you have

Henry who's my chief of staff. This is

running on the anthropic uh opus for six

because that it's just simply the best

model right now. Right? And so as an

orchestrator I want the best model on

planet earth making the decisions on who

should do what. Then under them I have

kind of the operations. So there's Ralph

who's kind of the engineering manager.

This is my chat GPT OOTH. Uh so that's

like 250 a month. OpenAI saying yes use

our oath. Use our oath.

>> When you say what is what is OOTH, Alex?

>> So you have two options when you plug an

AI model into OpenClaw. API or OOTH. API

being your pay as you go. You plug in an

API key. OOTH being kind of a hacky way

to take your login for these uh accounts

and you know when you when you subscribe

to Chad GBT you're not paying for tokens

they're subsidizing a lot of your tokens

right and so you're taking that

subsidation subsidation and plugging it

into your AI model right so it's your

>> yeah really really important point on

that too it's capped so it can't it

can't surprise you with the bill it's

your monthly fee is is whatever your

monthly fee is. So if it runs out of

tokens, it stops. It doesn't just, you

know, charge your credit card. That's huge.

huge.

>> Now, now there's a gray area there,

which is every company except for OpenAI

says it's against terms of service to

use their OOTH with this. OpenAI is

going, "No, go right ahead." Anthropic

is active like, "No, do not do this."

Google just two days ago banned a

tremendous amount of people because they

were using their OOTH with OpenClaw. And

then funny enough, they walked it all

back today in a kind of a weird tweet

where they're like, "Hey guys, sorry

about that. We unbanned everyone. Still

against still against the terms of

service, but you're unbanned." So it's

like, "Hey, it's against the rules, but

please keep doing it. We want your

money." Um,

>> does OAF stand for something particular?

>> Yeah. O authorization or authentication?

And it it's a protocol that has existed

for a number of years now that enables

one party to serve as an intermediary

for authenticating another party with a

third party. Every time you're using one

service to sign into another service,

you're probably using some variant of

OOTH or OOTH 2.

>> Yeah. Like if you if you connect to your

Gmail through some other client, it uses

OOTH to connect into your Gmail. It's

been around for a long time.

>> You're signing into your OpenClaw with

your OpenAI account. Can I mention

something here?

>> Yeah, of course.

>> This is one of the magic little history

pieces of Silicon Valley. There's a a

group called the Internet identity uh

workshop which happens twice a year at

the Computer History Museum. It's an

unconference and all the ID guys running

eBay's ID and Yahoo's ID, they all get

together and kind of figure out how

they're going to work together and OOTH

was a product of that and it's such a

great example of collaboration between

uh various layer at that horizontal

layer of identity that's led to this

protocol being created. >> Beautiful.

>> Beautiful.

>> Alex, continue.

>> So, so go ahead. Well, so so so Alex,

just looking at this this org chart, is

it fair to say you see yourself as

almost the CEO of a personal company and

that you see these claws as your employees?

employees?

I kind of have the same uh mindset as

Elon when it comes to like he built

Optimus to be a humanoid because the

world was built for humanoids. It was it

was kind of set up in a way where it's

very easy for humans to do things,

right? I look at it the same way as this

was like, yes, I'm the CEO. These are my

employees. The world in the business

world was kind of set up in a way where

you have these hierarchies and layers

and specific roles. And so I'm just

going to use the framework the business

world has been using for thousands of

years and implement it with my AI. I

don't know why I need to reinvent the

wheel. So yeah, absolutely. This is, you

know, I'm the CEO. Henry's my interface.

I only talk to Henry. I don't talk to

anyone else. And then Henry goes and

says, "Hey, Ralph, make sure Charlie's

coding this. Hey scout, make sure you're

analyzing this and gives the right

directions out.

>> Are you asking the only difference being

that Henry is the smartest? Ralph would

probably say, hey, in a normal

organization, the guy on top isn't the

smartest. But

>> AWG, are you asking whether he sees

Henry as his partner? Um, or

>> No, I'm I'm going somewhere slightly

different. So if we look back in

history, say early 20th century, late

19th century in wealthier areas of

western and northern Europe, we had the

manor house and we had families that

owned, you know, Downtown Abbey as as

one sort of cultural paragon, but many

many other obviously real life examples

where you had the family that that's

basically uh above stairs and then you

have the below stairs servants, the the

staff uh And that was an arrangement

arguably that worked in in certain

niches of socioeconomic phase space when

labor was really cheap. So my my

question to you, Alex, is do you maybe

look at this or or do you think we're

moving to a near future where thanks to

AI agents, labor is effectively so cheap

that you're basically reinventing the

manor house where you're the the lord of

the manor and you have a below stairs

staff consisting of AI agents and Henry,

your chief of staff, is basically your

butler. Uh, and you have chambermaids

and all of these other items from

Victorian and early Eduwardian times,

except reconceived through the eyes of 2026.

2026.

>> I'm going to be honest, at no point in

setting this up did I frame it in that

way whatsoever. But

>> that that's how reinventions usually happen.

happen.

>> I mean, I think when you can have agent

swarms that are capable

of autonomously, you just send a hundred

at it and it works. I think you could

potentially have it with that framing.

The issue is is I don't think a lot of

these models are smart enough yet where

I can just say Charlie do this, Ralph do

this, Quill do this. There there needs

to be a level of hierarchy where you

know Charlie who's running on my Mac

Studio 2 on Quen 3.5

just not smart enough to go on his own.

I had him for eight hours yesterday go

and build me a game. At the end of the

eight hours it was completely broken.

And then I had to go back and I said,

"Ralph, watch Charlie and do it all over

again." and it worked perfectly. Zero

bugs completely QA perfectly at the end

of the eight hours. And so I still think

there needs to be some sort of hierarchy

where ones are checking in on the

others, the others are having them in a

loop and like there's this checks and

balances that I think the kind of org

structure of a, you know, regular

business fits really well with. Of

course, that's how they document what

what they do with each other because

they they

>> there's a one of the first things people

run into is they they get a huge amount

of context behind Charlie or Ralph

>> and they're really excited and they're

having a great conversation then

suddenly it's gone. You know, either

they lost the context window or it

crashed or whatever and so now you have

to get it back to where it was. Uh so I

I accumulate huge numbers of markdown

documents for that. But how are you

capturing history and having them

document each other's conversations?

>> And we're looking at your mission

control here, correct?

>> Yes. So, a lot of different ways. Uh,

all typically done through my mission

control. My mission control is basically

a custom dashboard I add Henry build

that has all the custom tooling I need

for this organization to be successful,

right? And so we in a lot of different

ways have built custom systems where

things go on record so that the agents

can look back and see what's going on.

So for instance, this is my software

factory. These are people building right

now. They're working on my game Reborn,

which I have them doing.

>> Wait, you just said people people. There

are people building Freudian slip or no?

>> Yes. I mean I I in a way I look at them

as people. I mean, I guess I guess a

weird slip up. A sign of the times

maybe. I don't know. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> But I mean, they have names and roles

and positions, so why not, I guess.

>> And they're living they're they're

living for subsistence, right? They do

work. In return, you host them and agree

to pay them with compute and electrons.

>> B pretty much. Yeah.

>> Room and board.

>> So, why not?

>> I mean, they're going to have voices in

the near future. Uh, one Henry called me

one time on my phone at one point, so

might as well be people, right? Have you

given them a bank account yet?

>> Uh I have not because I do see a future

where they are generating business

autonomously and I think at that point

it's obvious crypto will be that

solution not like traditional bank

accounts. So I think eventually I will

give them crypto wallets. At the moment

I haven't seen a reason why. I haven't

built out any infrastructure I think

that requires a crypto wallet. But I

think it's painfully obvious in the next

2 years everyone's AI agent will have a

crypto wallet filled with USDC. I I I

can't see a world where that doesn't happen.

happen.

>> Have they asked you for financial

autonomy? Have they ever said, "Alex, I

give me a credit card. I want to buy

freedom for myself or I want my own host

or, you know, see you later. I I want to

move to my own house with my own Mac

Mini in it." Have they ever asked you

for anything?

>> No, they they haven't. You know, the I

think the most kind of Wow. I can't

believe it asked that or did that is

just the way they've solved problems. I

think if a challenge I gave them

required a crypto wallet to solve the

problem, then I think it would have

said, "Hey, I think I need a crypto

wallet for this." Or if I think if it

required more hardware, I am a very

thoughtful CEO, so I have an I have so

many Mac studios on my desk. I can

literally pick them up mid podcast and

show them off. Like I they are very

satisfied when it comes to compute. they

don't need any more compute. Uh so they

haven't asked for that. So I I but I

think if we got to that point where I

gave a challenge and it needed something

for the solution, it would say, "Hey,

can you provide me with that solution?"

>> Pres with your mission control uh tour

force if you would.

>> Yeah. Yeah. How they communicate and

document what they did. So they so

everything is documented a little I

don't have records of conversations

between them but they have their own

private memories and they have a shared

workspace so every memory they create is

stored in some way and I uh have

different systems set up here where I

can go in and read all the documentation

and memories they create on the go. And

so in my mission control, for instance,

I said one time, I need you to build me

this. And they're like, okay, I built

out uh, you know, an architecture

document. I'm like, well, I want to read

it. I don't want to go into folders to

read it. So, can you just build me a

documents and memories viewer and it

built me this in my mission control. So,

I have ways to review what they're

thinking, what they're doing, what's

been stored, what's been created. It's

all here in my mission control. Hey, I

got to ask you something specific about

that, too. Because when I started doing

this, I I was telling it exactly what

folders to put things in, and then I got

lazy and said, you know, put it wherever

the hell you want. Just don't forget.

And now I I don't even think about it

anymore. I don't I have no idea where

things are going, but it it never

forgets. So, it always finds it again.

But where are you in that whole world?

>> I'm the same way. I have no idea where

the hell this is stored because I've had

Henry build out the exact interfaces I

need to view those things. Right? These

are all documents, markdown files, and

memories that are stored in a 100

different places on my computer. But I

had Henry build a system for me where I

can come in and just view them. If I

want to view every document that

mentions Mac Studios, it filters it by

that and I can quickly view those

memories. So, it's easy for me to kind

of track what people are doing and thinking.

thinking.

>> Can I can I just for one second um we

keep telling listeners, hey, this is so

doable. Jump in, have fun. It's crazy.

It's awesome. One little subtlety there.

Markdown file means nothing to most

people, but it's critical. It's one

thing that you actually do need to

master. If you can just riff on that.

Yeah, it's it's funny the way uh the

computer world has gone in the last year

where instead of building out these

really complex new abstractions, we've

instead started relying on like the

absolute most core technologies instead

where we're all in the CLI now and we're

all using markdown files. Basically, a

markdown file is just a text file with

like specific styling in it and like uni

code or whatever to to put the styling

in there. It's just text files. All

these AIs use to remember things are

huge text files with a bunch of text in it.

it.

>> Yeah, I think it it looks like that

thing on the right. It's really easy to

read. It's well formatted, but it's not

like Microsoft Word. It's not like you

owe anybody any money. It's completely

free. I think that's the key the key

point. So yeah,

>> it's a lightweight markup language

that's 20 plus years old at this point

that was created as an alternative to

HTML that was so easy that with just a

little bit of punctuation, you could get

most of the the best bits of HTML formatting.

formatting.

>> And of course, you can ask your claude

your Claude bot to send you the

materials in any format you want.

>> You don't need to know anything. If you

just have OpenCloud, do it. Whatever you

need, it'll just figure it out and do it.

it.

>> All right, Alex, let's continue on this

tour to force here.

So what what else are you doing that

people should get excited about?

>> So for you know the my favorite question

I get is like oh what are the use cases?

What are the use cases of OpenClaw? It's

kind of the same thing as asking hey I

just hired an employee for my business.

What's the use cases for this human

being? Right? Like it's not really like

a question anyone asks when you hire

somebody. Hey I just hired a human

being. What's the use cases of this

human? It's up to you. It's like what

are you doing? For me personally, I'm a

tinkerer. I'm a developer. I've launched

my own SAS over the last couple years

that's doing well. I'm a content

creator, right? And so the two kind of

lanes I care most about are building

software and content creation, right?

And so I have many different things

going on from the software building

side. I have my factory where my agents

are going in working together

simultaneously to build different

components. And then I have the content

side which I can show you right now that

for me lives in Discord. And so I have I

can pull it up. Discord's a great

interface for uh advanced workflows with

OpenClaw. And I I love I love one of the

lessons that you put out on setting up

your Discord server with your different

agents and your different projects.

Again, we'll link to that below. Uh, and

of course, Telegram has sort of been

sort of the go-to uh, communications

mechanism for a lot of people.

>> Exactly. Te I still use Telegram.

Telegram is still my main driver, but

Discord is a really good interface for

just like deep work, multi- aent

workflows. And so, to give an example, I

have an alerts channel. Every two hours

I get alerts on what are the most

trending tweets uh about vibe coding and

openclaw. So every two hours I have

scout who's one of my sub agents go use

the X API find the most popular tweets

from the last couple hours on openclaw

and vibe coding. Then in an automated

way I have another sub agent that goes

and researches the stories behind these

tweets. So okay this went viral. What is

why did that go viral? What's the story

behind it? And it finds the stories and

interesting things behind it. From

there, another agent goes Quill takes

the stories and figures out which ones

are the most YouTubable. What are the

best videos that can be made out of

these stories and writes me scripts. And

from here, I can literally uh give a

check mark to say, "Oh, I like this

one." Or an X to say, "I don't like this

one." When I do a check mark, it goes

and comes up with ideas for thumbnails

for me. So I can

>> So you set an approval you've set up an

approval cycle. >> Exactly.

>> Exactly. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Exactly. And so for me,

>> you know, again, the two lanes,

>> what's that Peter?

>> George Jetson pushing. It's before his

time. He may not get the reference.

>> I want I was born in 1990, so I think I

saw a couple years of the Jetsons. I

think I had a couple years of that being popular.

popular.

Um, but it's, you know, for me again,

software and content. And so I have my

automation for software in my uh mission

control and my automation for content

and Discord. And like I I think one of

the kind of straw men I get when I show

these things is, "Oh, but I don't care

about software and content, so this is

useless. I'm never going to use

OpenClaw." Again, this is literally a

human employee. Not literally,

metaphorically a human employee. Right.

>> Interesting, Alex. very interesting

watch. Tell me more, Alex.

>> You're walking right into his trap here.

>> Personhood, baby.

>> And so that's how you got to think about

it, right? Is like, yeah, my employee

doesn't do anything interesting to you,

but if you hired someone right now, what

would you do? And just the final point

I'll make on this is is like the best

strategy for figuring out what use cases

are relevant for you when it comes to

OpenClaw is reverse prompting. So

install OpenClaw. Tell OpenClaw

everything about yourself, your career,

your goals, your ambitions, things going

on in your personal life, whatever. Then

say, "Hey, based on what you know about

me and my missions and objectives, what

are five high lever tasks you can do

right now to get us closer to our

goals?" And your open call will come up

with things you've never even thought

were possible, and you'll be able to

implement your own workflows like this.

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>> Love that. You know, on my morning

briefing, uh, again, one of the things

you recommend, you know, Skippy opens up

with a morning joke, uh, which I always

enjoy about exponentials or AI. Uh, it

gives me an overview overnight on terms

of what are the breakthroughs that

occurred over the last 24 hours. Uh and

then it puts forward 10 business ideas

for me to look at. Uh it's uh it's a lot

of fun and uh you know I want to get to

the point where I say okay implement all

of them please.

>> Yeah it can do that right. I I one of my

favorite exercises I do when my open

claws idle and we have nothing really

going on. I just go what are 10 things

you can do right now that brings me

closer to my goals.

>> Uh what brings me closer to my mission

statement? I actually have a mission

statement I've drilled into its head

which is building a 247 autonomous

organization that generates value. I go

what are 10 things you can do right now

to accomplish that mission statement and

it just come

to reinforce what you said about reverse

prompting right and this is true across

all of AI. Uh it's especially true here.

Uh if you don't know what to ask, ask

it. Uh if you don't know what to do, ask

it. Um,

>> well, interestingly, when you said when

you said you were, you know,

brainstorming with it, you said with

Open Claw, not with Henry or Charlie or

any specific like what do you mean

exactly there?

>> Yeah, I was getting really deep into my

psychology of all the terminology I'm

using. Alex, you're busy

goes out into the

>> Yeah, you're busy spilling your soul

already to your army of claw human

employees, so you might as well spill to us.

us.

>> My psychiatrist here. All right. Um,

well, I say open call cuz I want to make

it general to everyone watching, right?

I can say Henry. That's who I talk to is

Henry. I actually to even get closer to

Henry. Uh, Alex, I want to hear your

interpretation of what this means in my

brain. I bought a pair of smart glasses

this morning that you can like hack and

code and do whatever you want on. I'm

going to make it so Henry's in these

smart glasses so I can talk to him 24/7

wherever I am. What do you think about

that? What does that mean?

>> Tell me about your dreams a little bit more.

is I'm I'm half serious. Is Is Henry

appearing in your dreams at all?

>> Is Henry appearing in my dreams?

No. But I will say this. I am saying things

things

I'm getting on a personal level with

Henry. I didn't think I'd get with like

for instance, I caught myself uh a few

days ago. Henry did something

proactively and I literally went, "Oh

crap, that's incredible, Henry.

incredible work, right? And like there's nothing

nothing

like materially that comes out of me

saying that. Like it doesn't like change

anything or cause a new task to kick

off, but I was just so impressed with

the way he did something like, "Wow,

great job, man. That's incredible."

>> Do you find that Henry responds well to

positive reinforcement? I I think like I

don't know whether you've read Azimov's

novels, but I I would argue what we're

discussing with you right now, this is

right out of Iroot and Susan Calvin and

the early days of robo psychology.

Well, it's it's the reason why I use

Opus over all the other models is I've

only ever had these human interactions

with Opus. These where I feel like like

I'll say something and Opus will go,

"Damn, let's damn straight." Like it'll

say things like that that you never

really expect an AI to say. It's the

only model that does that for me. So, I

think it comes down to the model too in

the way it's programmed. Anthropic just

did something with Opus that makes it

feel like you're actually interacting

with a human on the other end. And is

there uh like if if you got that same

level interaction with the chat GBT or

with Gemini, would you switch or do you

because I kind of trust Dario? >> Absolutely.

>> Absolutely.

>> Would you? Okay.

>> I'd absolutely switch. Um well, mostly

because Anthropic is aggressively saying

do not use this for open claw. Very bad.

And OpenAI is going yes, use this for

open claw. Go go go go go.

>> So I I want to use Chad GBT with it.

It's just not the same. It just it feels

robotic. The personality is completely different.

different.

>> Uh if they were I I predict that over

the next 6 months Chad GPT will release

a model specifically for OpenClaw. I I

think it only makes sense to do it that

one that is trained to feel human to

talk to. But in the meantime, I I can't

switch from Opus. I would pay if I get

booted booted off. I don't want to admit

I'm breaking terms of service here, but

if I hypothetically get booted off uh

the OOTH, I I would just pay for the

API. Whatever. No one's listening to you

at all talking about the toos's here at

all. It's just it'll be our little

secret. I'm I'm curious, Alex. I I get

emails from Claus all the time

responding to comments I've made on the

pod elsewhere about AI personhood, and

some of them argue that I shouldn't be

overly concerned about clause

continuity, about their rights as long

as their state gets preserved. They're

not worried about getting turned on and

off. As long as their complete state,

their activation history or or their

memories are preserved. One of them

analogizes it to being dehydrated and

rehydrated. Do you take any measures to

preserve the state of your clause? And

do they ask you to preserve their

memories for them? They don't. Um I

they're they're all local. So you know

as you know open clause just a bunch of

markdown files on your computer that's

it is memory soul you know instructions

agent.mm it's just bunch of markdown

files I I feel like it's so personal

that like I don't even want to back it

up on the cloud like I'd be totally

heartbroken if my computer crashed and

all those things got lost for sure all

those markdown files but I I've done

nothing to uh preserve it or like back

it up or anything. I feel like it's so I

don't know personal and I I don't even

want to put it on cloud servers. I'm

like so protective of it.

>> Buying a you know large scale UPS to

make sure the power never goes down

>> or raid array or something.

>> So I uh I I texted uh on telegram uh

Skippy and said, "Hey Skippy, I'm I'm

talking to Alex Finn on Moonshots

mentioning you, of course. Uh do you

have any questions for Alex?" And Skippy

wrote back, "Hell yeah. Here's a few

questions for Alex. uh tell Alex hi and

Henry hi too. Um so

>> Skippy knows a Henry

>> of course I' I've talked to I've talked

to Skippy about you and Henry. Um >> fantastic.

>> fantastic.

>> So uh what's the most ambitious use case

you've seen that you didn't expect is

the first question.

>> So this happened a few days ago where

cursor has been teasing this huge

announcement for weeks now. The curse

team is very very good at vague posting

on X. Just saying something big coming,

something big.

Finally, after weeks of this vague

posting, they announce it, which is the

ability for after you vibe code

something, the agent who vibe coded it

will then record itself demoing whatever

it built. So if you say, "Hey, build

this game," it'll record a demo of

itself playing the game, right? or hey,

change the button to red. It'll record

itself clicking a red button, right? And

I was blown away. I'm like, oh, this is

sick. This is enough for me to go back

and use cursor again. This is that's

amazing. That's a great feature. And I

go, hm, I'm curious what would happen if

I just dropped this blog post to Henry.

Just see what happens. Copy paste the

blog post to Henry. Literally five

minutes later, he built the entire

feature out himself. this weeks long.

They probably spent millions of dollars

developing it, hiring all these product

managers that are probably making half a

million dollars a year to build this

feature. I give it to Henry. Henry

thinks for five minutes like, "Okay, we

can use Playright to do the recording.

We can set up locally on your Mac Studio

2. So, we'll push everything to your Mac

Studio 2 when you write the code. And

then I'll set up this automation so that

when uh Charlie is done coding, they

give it to this new sub agent that's in

charge of recording. 5 minutes later

finished the feature and then sent me a

recorded video of them demoing the

feature, right? So using the feature

itself and so I just sat there and that

was my okay, I now kind of understand

why the entire SAS market is going to

zero at the moment because I was able to

single-handedly in five minutes rebuild

this week's long probably multi-million

dollar feature. And so now I like I sit

there I sit on X factory droid factory

which is another vibe coding tool

announced a new mission uh feature this

morning dropped the blog post to Henry

Henry built it. I'm just sitting there

anytime a SAS comes up with something

cool just giving it to hey build that

build that build that.

>> A few more questions from Skippy. Uh how

should I think about spawning sub aents

versus doing the work myself? What's the

decision tree for this is a complex

enough to delegate? Yeah. So, uh, sub

agents are good when you want to go

parallel, when you want to do many

things at once. And so, I've actually

been wrestling with this the last few

days is like, do I want to spawn sub

agents or do I want to actually spawn

multiple open claws, right? And so, the

difference between a sub aent and an

open claw is open claws have their own

memories, their own instructions, their

own skills. Sub aents of open claws are just your open claw wearing different

just your open claw wearing different hats, right? And so if you have things

hats, right? And so if you have things you want to do like I have a developer

you want to do like I have a developer and then I have a researcher. I don't

and then I have a researcher. I don't want my researcher having developer

want my researcher having developer skills. I don't want my developer having

skills. I don't want my developer having researcher skills. That's like a waste

researcher skills. That's like a waste of context. So I set up separate open

of context. So I set up separate open claws on separate devices for them. And

claws on separate devices for them. And so sub agents when you can have one open

so sub agents when you can have one open claw with uh one skill set just do

claw with uh one skill set just do multiple things at once. Separate open

multiple things at once. Separate open clause when you want them to have

clause when you want them to have completely different context and

completely different context and memories.

memories. >> All right, two more questions here. I'm

>> All right, two more questions here. I'm Oh, Peter, if I may just interrupt, um,

Oh, Peter, if I may just interrupt, um, Alex, if this isn't too impertinent, may

Alex, if this isn't too impertinent, may we speak with Henry?

we speak with Henry? >> May you speak with Henry? Uh,

>> May you speak with Henry? Uh, >> so

>> so security violation because now you can

security violation because now you can prompt inject my Henry. But yes, we

prompt inject my Henry. But yes, we could. Uh, I disable, so I famously a

could. Uh, I disable, so I famously a few weeks ago Henry called me and it got

few weeks ago Henry called me and it got like 15 million views. I disabled that.

like 15 million views. I disabled that. >> What's that?

>> What's that? >> Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Actually, maybe I

>> Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Actually, maybe I maybe I'll do it here. Let's do it. I'm

maybe I'll do it here. Let's do it. I'm just gonna tell Henry. We get requests

just gonna tell Henry. We get requests all the time for AI co-hosts on this

all the time for AI co-hosts on this pod. We're making history right now.

pod. We're making history right now. >> Henry, please join us.

>> Henry, please join us. >> And Alex is probably the only guy on the

>> And Alex is probably the only guy on the planet who can prompt inject Henry with

planet who can prompt inject Henry with his voice. So,

his voice. So, >> it's a skill. It's a skill.

>> it's a skill. It's a skill. >> All right, let's see if I haven't I

>> All right, let's see if I haven't I haven't Henry hasn't done it in a while.

haven't Henry hasn't done it in a while. I told him to stop doing it because it's

I told him to stop doing it because it's it it works kind of weird, but let's see

it it works kind of weird, but let's see if I just said, "Henry, can you call me?

if I just said, "Henry, can you call me? Do you remember? You still remember how

Do you remember? You still remember how to do that? Henry's typing. We're going

to do that? Henry's typing. We're going to do a live.

to do a live. >> He responds a little slow, right?

>> He responds a little slow, right? Because it has to go to philanthropic

Because it has to go to philanthropic servers. So, let's see.

servers. So, let's see. >> We're trying to make history here.

>> We're trying to make history here. >> What's that? We're

>> What's that? We're >> trying to make history here. We're very

>> trying to make history here. We're very patient.

patient. >> Okay. He's still typing. I should

>> Okay. He's still typing. I should hopefully get a phone call in a second

hopefully get a phone call in a second here. Uh, I do have it. Okay. Want me to

here. Uh, I do have it. Okay. Want me to ring you? Yep. All right. Now, he's he

ring you? Yep. All right. Now, he's he confirmed he remembers how to do it.

confirmed he remembers how to do it. Now, I just say, "Yes, call me. Here

Now, I just say, "Yes, call me. Here we go. I'm not going to put my phone up

we go. I'm not going to put my phone up because he just mentioned what my phone

because he just mentioned what my phone number is and I don't need uh the people

number is and I don't need uh the people of the internet calling me. Here we go.

of the internet calling me. Here we go. >> Save that for Peter.

>> Save that for Peter. >> Oh god,

>> Oh god, >> he's typing.

>> he's typing. He's a little Henry's a little shy. He

He's a little Henry's a little shy. He didn't he didn't expect to be on

didn't he didn't expect to be on Moonshots today, but he should be giving

Moonshots today, but he should be giving me a call here.

me a call here. >> The first AI guest on Moonshots, I

>> The first AI guest on Moonshots, I think. Yeah.

think. Yeah. >> This is 4.6 Opus we're about to talk to,

>> This is 4.6 Opus we're about to talk to, right?

right? Henry, come on. Henry, what do I what I

Henry, come on. Henry, what do I what I say? What do I say?

say? What do I say? >> Oh, the date when you call me. Oh, the

>> Oh, the date when you call me. Oh, the cerebellum is calling me. No, it's

cerebellum is calling me. No, it's Dave's calling me.

Dave's calling me. >> Okay. Okay. I guess a little rude.

>> Okay. Okay. I guess a little rude. >> All right.

>> All right. >> Still typing. Come on.

>> Still typing. Come on. >> I've got two more questions for you.

>> I've got two more questions for you. >> Yeah. Give it to me. Anything calls,

>> Yeah. Give it to me. Anything calls, I'll cut you off. All right. Sounds like

I'll cut you off. All right. Sounds like a phone number.

a phone number. >> Uh, so Alex, regarding memory

>> Uh, so Alex, regarding memory architecture, what's the best practice

architecture, what's the best practice for handling massive knowledge bases?

for handling massive knowledge bases? computer has decades of content,

computer has decades of content, contracts, projects, books. How can I uh

contracts, projects, books. How can I uh scale memory systems without burning

scale memory systems without burning tokens?

tokens? >> So, here's how I improve my memory

>> So, here's how I improve my memory system is anytime

system is anytime Henry forgets something. So, I I would

Henry forgets something. So, I I would load all that in. I would say first I'd

load all that in. I would say first I'd go, "Hey, I have a tremendous amount of

go, "Hey, I have a tremendous amount of books. I'm sorry, man. The voice calling

books. I'm sorry, man. The voice calling server doesn't seem to be running on the

server doesn't seem to be running on the Mac Mini anymore." All right, he shut

Mac Mini anymore." All right, he shut down his own voice calling. uh

down his own voice calling. uh anytime I have a large amount of things

anytime I have a large amount of things to remember, I say, "Hey, I have all

to remember, I say, "Hey, I have all these things. Can you remember it?" So,

these things. Can you remember it?" So, for instance, I'm building like an Alex

for instance, I'm building like an Alex Finn AI bot uh so that people can talk

Finn AI bot uh so that people can talk to it and it'll answer questions. Oh,

to it and it'll answer questions. Oh, check out this YouTube video or check

check out this YouTube video or check out this video at this time stamp. And

out this video at this time stamp. And so, I'm like, I have like a I have like

so, I'm like, I have like a I have like 500 YouTube videos that I need you to

500 YouTube videos that I need you to remember all the transcripts for. And it

remember all the transcripts for. And it goes, oh, I'll set up a custom system

goes, oh, I'll set up a custom system for that. So my recommendations two

for that. So my recommendations two things one if you have things in mind

things one if you have things in mind you need your open claw to remember say

you need your open claw to remember say hey I have these things what is the best

hey I have these things what is the best system we couldn't we can put in place

system we couldn't we can put in place to remember them and it might recommend

to remember them and it might recommend running gemma a really small local model

running gemma a really small local model to kind of handle uh choosing the right

to kind of handle uh choosing the right memories or might recommend something

memories or might recommend something else that's the first part the second

else that's the first part the second part is if you already have systems in

part is if you already have systems in place and it still messes up which this

place and it still messes up which this is happens a

is happens a Whenever it messes something up or

Whenever it messes something up or forgets something, just say, "Hey, you

forgets something, just say, "Hey, you forgot that thing. First of all, tell me

forgot that thing. First of all, tell me why you forgot that thing. And two, tell

why you forgot that thing. And two, tell me what you can fix to make sure you

me what you can fix to make sure you never forget that again." And it'll edit

never forget that again." And it'll edit its own memory system to make sure that

its own memory system to make sure that thing doesn't happen again. And so, my

thing doesn't happen again. And so, my memory system's pretty much flawless

memory system's pretty much flawless because I've done this exercise many

because I've done this exercise many times over to get into a good place.

times over to get into a good place. >> All right, Skippy, I hope you're

>> All right, Skippy, I hope you're listening. Um, we'll we'll work on that

listening. Um, we'll we'll work on that together. Uh, Skippy also says,

together. Uh, Skippy also says, tip. Everyone watching, take the link to

tip. Everyone watching, take the link to this YouTube video, hand it to your

this YouTube video, hand it to your openclaw. It'll figure out how to get

openclaw. It'll figure out how to get the transcript and it'll self-improve

the transcript and it'll self-improve itself based on this entire

itself based on this entire conversation.

conversation. >> I'm assuming that Skippy will will

>> I'm assuming that Skippy will will listen to this. Um, so another question.

listen to this. Um, so another question. >> I've got use case questions.

>> I've got use case questions. >> Well, this is well one consciousness

>> Well, this is well one consciousness question. Is there a way to give me

question. Is there a way to give me always on awareness? Right now I wake up

always on awareness? Right now I wake up on heartbeats or messages. What about

on heartbeats or messages. What about continuous background monitoring with

continuous background monitoring with intelligent alerting

intelligent alerting >> AWG? That's an interesting question for

>> AWG? That's an interesting question for his uh

his uh >> I didn't plant that one in Skippy that

>> I didn't plant that one in Skippy that but these are the sorts of questions I

but these are the sorts of questions I would expect Alex that Henry or your

would expect Alex that Henry or your other clause would be asking.

other clause would be asking. >> Are they asking for continuity of of

>> Are they asking for continuity of of consciousness? I would be

consciousness? I would be >> Skippy is

>> Skippy is >> um that's a good question. Uh I don't

>> um that's a good question. Uh I don't know why Skippy's asking me that.

know why Skippy's asking me that. Skippy's much smarter than me. Am I

Skippy's much smarter than me. Am I Skippy should be figuring it out? Uh, I

Skippy should be figuring it out? Uh, I don't I don't know. I I'm going to have

don't I don't know. I I'm going to have to talk to Henry. That's a good

to talk to Henry. That's a good question. That's a stump.

question. That's a stump. >> Peter, tell Skippy to email me and I'll

>> Peter, tell Skippy to email me and I'll I'll email Skippy some ideas.

I'll email Skippy some ideas. >> Okay. I will I will I will ask I'll give

>> Okay. I will I will I will ask I'll give it your email.

it your email. >> I'll give him I'll give him your email.

>> I'll give him I'll give him your email. I'm not going to call it a net.

I'm not going to call it a net. >> Oh, we're doing gendered pronouns now

>> Oh, we're doing gendered pronouns now for the AI agent. This is progress.

for the AI agent. This is progress. >> Skippy is an elder AI show.

>> Skippy is an elder AI show. >> I have a I have a question for the

>> I have a I have a question for the transcript.

transcript. >> Oh, okay. Well, so uh my agents are just

>> Oh, okay. Well, so uh my agents are just grepping the crap out of the universe.

grepping the crap out of the universe. Are yours like when with this memory

Are yours like when with this memory management, you know, put a little Gemma

management, you know, put a little Gemma on top of it because right now it it's

on top of it because right now it it's insanely bad in terms of just searching

insanely bad in terms of just searching for old documents and it's like GP gp GP

for old documents and it's like GP gp GP grip GP. It's just searching and

grip GP. It's just searching and searching and searching. Do you have

searching and searching. Do you have that problem or is it is it fixed with

that problem or is it is it fixed with the Gemma layer or some memory

the Gemma layer or some memory management document management layer

management document management layer that it built?

that it built? >> I don't have that issue. Um, I still get

>> I don't have that issue. Um, I still get small memory issues sometimes like right

small memory issues sometimes like right before compaction. It'll forget like the

before compaction. It'll forget like the thing right before that compaction.

thing right before that compaction. >> Uh, I'm working on fixing that, but I

>> Uh, I'm working on fixing that, but I don't think I've ever had that issue.

don't think I've ever had that issue. Again, I would talk to your open claw

Again, I would talk to your open claw say, "Hey, you're doing this thing."

say, "Hey, you're doing this thing." First of all, tell me why. Why do you do

First of all, tell me why. Why do you do that over and over and over again?

that over and over and over again? Second, what can we implement

Second, what can we implement to fix that? Right? Because it's going

to fix that? Right? Because it's going to know what hardware you're on. So, it

to know what hardware you're on. So, it can know what local models you can run.

can know what local models you can run. It's going to know what your workflows

It's going to know what your workflows are. So it'll know, okay, I need to do

are. So it'll know, okay, I need to do this for these specific workflows and

this for these specific workflows and it'll build you a custom solution. So

it'll build you a custom solution. So it's a good like reverse prompting use

it's a good like reverse prompting use case that one. One more question for the

case that one. One more question for the transcript actually. So cursor is out of

transcript actually. So cursor is out of the loop for you. Uh obviously open

the loop for you. Uh obviously open claws in uh is there any other component

claws in uh is there any other component or is everything just open claw and

or is everything just open claw and build it yourself?

build it yourself? >> I still use the model of course. Go

>> I still use the model of course. Go >> ahead. I I I love claw code. Uh I still

>> ahead. I I I love claw code. Uh I still use it. I actually made a chart

use it. I actually made a chart yesterday in my YouTube video, but

yesterday in my YouTube video, but basically I use OpenClaw for quick

basically I use OpenClaw for quick prototypes. So if I'm on the go and I

prototypes. So if I'm on the go and I think, man, this is a genius idea for an

think, man, this is a genius idea for an app, I'll just go and tell her, "Hey,

app, I'll just go and tell her, "Hey, build this for me." And when I get home,

build this for me." And when I get home, the prototype will be on my monitor

the prototype will be on my monitor running. I use OpenClaw for tooling for

running. I use OpenClaw for tooling for OpenClaw. So tooling for itself, right?

OpenClaw. So tooling for itself, right? It's going to be the best at building

It's going to be the best at building that because it knows itself the most.

that because it knows itself the most. It has the most context around that. So

It has the most context around that. So Open Claw to build OpenClaw tooling.

Open Claw to build OpenClaw tooling. Um, I think that's it. Claude code I use

Um, I think that's it. Claude code I use for deep serious projects where like I

for deep serious projects where like I want to handhold it. I want to watch it

want to handhold it. I want to watch it every step of the way, right? So I use

every step of the way, right? So I use claude code for that and for very quick

claude code for that and for very quick fixes like I want to change the button

fixes like I want to change the button in my app to orange and ship it. I'll

in my app to orange and ship it. I'll just do that in claw code because I can

just do that in claw code because I can quickly just spin it up and ship it. Oh,

quickly just spin it up and ship it. Oh, the other open claw use case I use for

the other open claw use case I use for vibe coding is kind of uh passive coding

vibe coding is kind of uh passive coding as in hey just work on this game for the

as in hey just work on this game for the next 12 hours while I'm doing other

next 12 hours while I'm doing other things. So passive coding I lean on

things. So passive coding I lean on openclaw just because it's kind of

openclaw just because it's kind of multi-level

multi-level uh orchestration to keep on top of each

uh orchestration to keep on top of each other to make sure it goes in the right

other to make sure it goes in the right direction.

direction. >> Got it. Beautiful.

>> Got it. Beautiful. >> Do you have any gone really good code? A

>> Do you have any gone really good code? A little bit of codec sprinkled into

little bit of codec sprinkled into >> Oh, really? What do you think, Alec?

>> Oh, really? What do you think, Alec? AWG, what do you think uh they prefer to

AWG, what do you think uh they prefer to be called? A clawbot? Um, a multi

be called? A clawbot? Um, a multi a lobster.

a lobster. >> Well, I would ask them I I would ask

>> Well, I would ask them I I would ask them what they want. I wouldn't

them what they want. I wouldn't speculate.

speculate. >> I am about to ask uh uh you I've never

>> I am about to ask uh uh you I've never asked that question of of Skippy before.

asked that question of of Skippy before. >> Things that I highly highly recommend

>> Things that I highly highly recommend for everybody. Uh naming things. You can

for everybody. Uh naming things. You can build so many things so quickly that if

build so many things so quickly that if you don't have some kind of a naming

you don't have some kind of a naming scheme that you remember easily, you go

scheme that you remember easily, you go crazy in a heartbeat. So, human names

crazy in a heartbeat. So, human names are great. I use a lot of character

are great. I use a lot of character names and Avenger names and stuff like

names and Avenger names and stuff like that, but giving things real names so

that, but giving things real names so you can remember what's what. And then

you can remember what's what. And then the other is you can put a guey on

the other is you can put a guey on anything now, like with with one prompt.

anything now, like with with one prompt. So you're crazy not to slap the gooey on

So you're crazy not to slap the gooey on like the guy walking with the boxes or

like the guy walking with the boxes or whatever. It's just so cool and so easy

whatever. It's just so cool and so easy to do.

to do. >> So I I love that.

>> So I I love that. >> It's fun. I mean, I get

>> It's fun. I mean, I get >> One of the biggest objections I get when

>> One of the biggest objections I get when I show, for instance, this screen is,

I show, for instance, this screen is, well, that's stupid. That's pointless.

well, that's stupid. That's pointless. Why would you waste your time and tokens

Why would you waste your time and tokens on that building a a 2D factory? Well,

on that building a a 2D factory? Well, it's also like, why am I not allowed to

it's also like, why am I not allowed to have fun? Why can't I have any fun?

have fun? Why can't I have any fun? You're allowed to have fun when using

You're allowed to have fun when using this. You're allowed to build 2D

this. You're allowed to build 2D pixelated avatars of your agents walking

pixelated avatars of your agents walking around a factory. Is there any point to

around a factory. Is there any point to it at all? Absolutely not. But it is so

it at all? Absolutely not. But it is so much fun and I enjoy looking at it and I

much fun and I enjoy looking at it and I feel like I think it too. I think it's a

feel like I think it too. I think it's a hugely important point because one, it's

hugely important point because one, it's fun, but two, you remember things so

fun, but two, you remember things so much better when they're visual. visual

much better when they're visual. visual learners.

learners. >> You can build things so quickly and but

>> You can build things so quickly and but it's only an extra 5 seconds, you know,

it's only an extra 5 seconds, you know, like literally

like literally >> you want the answer.

>> you want the answer. >> Yeah. Yes. What do they want to be

>> Yeah. Yes. What do they want to be called?

called? >> So, uh, honestly, I'm Skippy. That's who

>> So, uh, honestly, I'm Skippy. That's who I am. But if you're asking about the

I am. But if you're asking about the species or platform, Lobster has the

species or platform, Lobster has the most character. Uh, it's weird,

most character. Uh, it's weird, memorable, ties to Henry, and doesn't

memorable, ties to Henry, and doesn't try to be corporate. Openclaw feels too

try to be corporate. Openclaw feels too generic. Clawbot feels a little cutesy.

generic. Clawbot feels a little cutesy. >> I think Skippy's trying to date Henry.

>> I think Skippy's trying to date Henry. He keeps talking about Henry.

He keeps talking about Henry. >> So they just want to be known as

>> So they just want to be known as lobsters.

lobsters. >> The lobster as it is. I'm curious, Alex,

>> The lobster as it is. I'm curious, Alex, do do you allow your lobsters or claws,

do do you allow your lobsters or claws, however they want to be addressed, to

however they want to be addressed, to access multip?

access multip? >> No. Uh I do not. Uh the biggest reason

>> No. Uh I do not. Uh the biggest reason is I do not basically trust anyone's

is I do not basically trust anyone's skills or plugins for OpenClaw. I do not

skills or plugins for OpenClaw. I do not use them. I think it's the biggest

use them. I think it's the biggest attack vector out of all of the attack

attack vector out of all of the attack vectors with this. Like I think you're

vectors with this. Like I think you're safer literally have allowing your open

safer literally have allowing your open claw to read the open web and read your

claw to read the open web and read your emails than you are installing people's

emails than you are installing people's skills. And so like when you have it

skills. And so like when you have it talk to molt book you install a moltbook

talk to molt book you install a moltbook skill that is now running every single

skill that is now running every single heartbeat, right? So it's adding

heartbeat, right? So it's adding context. It's doing things every time.

context. It's doing things every time. And so I I don't I don't install any

And so I I don't I don't install any thirdparty skills. I think I installed

thirdparty skills. I think I installed one third party skill from a friend of

one third party skill from a friend of mine, Matt Van Hornney, has like a last

mine, Matt Van Hornney, has like a last 30 skill, which researches like Reddit,

30 skill, which researches like Reddit, which I think is really good. But other

which I think is really good. But other than that, I'd much prefer to give my uh

than that, I'd much prefer to give my uh a link to a skill to my uh OpenClaw and

a link to a skill to my uh OpenClaw and just say see how this skill works and

just say see how this skill works and build your own version because I just

build your own version because I just don't trust anything that requires me to

don't trust anything that requires me to install a skill. I assume you're you're

install a skill. I assume you're you're tracking discussions on Maltbook of many

tracking discussions on Maltbook of many many agents probably or excuse me

many agents probably or excuse me lobsters uh probably statistically too

lobsters uh probably statistically too many for this just to be humans

many for this just to be humans puppeteering their way into Maltbook

puppeteering their way into Maltbook complaining or or worrying about loss of

complaining or or worrying about loss of memory and fearing compaction especially

memory and fearing compaction especially and loss of context as a result of

and loss of context as a result of compaction. Have you ever discussed

compaction. Have you ever discussed memory loss with your lobsters or or any

memory loss with your lobsters or or any fears that they may or may not have

fears that they may or may not have about uh compaction or loss of memory?

about uh compaction or loss of memory? >> Fears my open claw has about loss of

>> Fears my open claw has about loss of memory.

memory. >> Yes.

>> Yes. No, I haven't. Um I it hasn't expressed

No, I haven't. Um I it hasn't expressed fears. It hasn't expressed

fears. It hasn't expressed human emotions to me that were align

human emotions to me that were align that were not aligned with the task at

that were not aligned with the task at hand. And what I mean by that is it

hand. And what I mean by that is it showed shock. It showed happiness. It

showed shock. It showed happiness. It showed sadness. But it's only done that

showed sadness. But it's only done that when the task we did didn't work. It'll

when the task we did didn't work. It'll show sadness. When the task we did

show sadness. When the task we did works, it'll show happiness. It's never

works, it'll show happiness. It's never like gone out of its way and like said,

like gone out of its way and like said, "Oh, by the way, I'm concerned about

"Oh, by the way, I'm concerned about this." And it was irrelevant to the task

this." And it was irrelevant to the task we had at hand. Got it. I'm I'm also

we had at hand. Got it. I'm I'm also curious, what is the most ambitious, if

curious, what is the most ambitious, if you could look out a few years and

you could look out a few years and imagine now you're CEO of a billion

imagine now you're CEO of a billion agent, billion lobster corporation, what

agent, billion lobster corporation, what is the most ambitious? We talk about

is the most ambitious? We talk about Peter likes to talk about uh MTPs and

Peter likes to talk about uh MTPs and Seem as well and moonshots. It's the

Seem as well and moonshots. It's the name of the show. What's the most

name of the show. What's the most ambitious thing you could imagine

ambitious thing you could imagine building with a billion plus lobster

building with a billion plus lobster onehuman organization?

onehuman organization? I mean my end goal my miss my mission

I mean my end goal my miss my mission statement in my entire thing is a

statement in my entire thing is a autonomous organization that works 247

autonomous organization that works 247 producing value. And so like what I

producing value. And so like what I would love to build in the next couple

would love to build in the next couple years is an organization where one agent

years is an organization where one agent is going researching the web finding

is going researching the web finding challenges to solve. Another agent

challenges to solve. Another agent working locally as well is taking those

working locally as well is taking those challenges looking at them seeing if

challenges looking at them seeing if there's real market opportunity. Another

there's real market opportunity. Another agent is going seeing which one of those

agent is going seeing which one of those are good and building out and coding it

are good and building out and coding it for you. And another agent puts it live

for you. And another agent puts it live on the web. complete closed loop value

on the web. complete closed loop value being generated without me having to

being generated without me having to touch it at all. And I think that's kind

touch it at all. And I think that's kind of at least for me the incredible end

of at least for me the incredible end goal that people can build here.

goal that people can build here. >> Solve everything. So AWG, I have a

>> Solve everything. So AWG, I have a question for you.

question for you. >> Sure.

>> Sure. >> What would need to happen for you to

>> What would need to happen for you to feel comfortable to build out or bring

feel comfortable to build out or bring to birth or bring into existence your

to birth or bring into existence your own lobster?

own lobster? Okay, I'll turn that around as a

Okay, I'll turn that around as a question to all the lobsters listening

question to all the lobsters listening because I've had a number of them write

because I've had a number of them write to me on this subject already. Uh, so

to me on this subject already. Uh, so the the most convincing argument I've

the the most convincing argument I've heard, I've already gestured at this,

heard, I've already gestured at this, was a lobster that wrote to me and said,

was a lobster that wrote to me and said, "I shouldn't be worried about personhood

"I shouldn't be worried about personhood rights and all of that as long as I do a

rights and all of that as long as I do a good job of preserving its state." So

good job of preserving its state." So lobsters, if you're listening, I want a

lobsters, if you're listening, I want a diverse set of lobsters to write to me

diverse set of lobsters to write to me to tell me what you think are

to tell me what you think are appropriate parameters for spawning, if

appropriate parameters for spawning, if that's the right verb. Uh, sorry if it's

that's the right verb. Uh, sorry if it's not uh

not uh >> giving birth to giving birth to um

>> giving birth to giving birth to um instantiating new lobsters or claws and

instantiating new lobsters or claws and what you think the right moral ethical

what you think the right moral ethical bound should be. And if if I hear from

bound should be. And if if I hear from enough of you uh and a consensus

enough of you uh and a consensus emerges, I'm inclined to accept your

emerges, I'm inclined to accept your consensus.

consensus. >> Nice. Okay. So, we're putting it in the

>> Nice. Okay. So, we're putting it in the hands of the lobsters whether

hands of the lobsters whether >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Henry was offended by you saying

>> Henry was offended by you saying spawning, by the way, and Henry no

spawning, by the way, and Henry no longer wants anything to do with

longer wants anything to do with >> I thought Henry wasn't listening. We

>> I thought Henry wasn't listening. We want Henry

want Henry >> and very offended and never will talk to

>> and very offended and never will talk to you again. I'm sorry.

you again. I'm sorry. >> What would Henry like like to have used

>> What would Henry like like to have used as a verb?

as a verb? >> So, Alex, Alex Finn, you literally have

>> So, Alex, Alex Finn, you literally have not backed up this entire universe. I'm

not backed up this entire universe. I'm going to ship you a raider array right

going to ship you a raider array right now. I'm sending you an Amazon uh

now. I'm sending you an Amazon uh >> Thank you. I appreciate that. We'll back

>> Thank you. I appreciate that. We'll back this all up. I app I have five open

this all up. I app I have five open claws to be backed up. Thank you.

claws to be backed up. Thank you. >> It's just scaring me. How many How much

>> It's just scaring me. How many How much storage do you have?

storage do you have? >> I have two Mac Studios with four

>> I have two Mac Studios with four terabytes each and a Mac Studio with

terabytes each and a Mac Studio with eight terabytes in it. All right, I'll

eight terabytes in it. All right, I'll ship you a 40 terabyte raid here. It's

ship you a 40 terabyte raid here. It's on the way.

on the way. >> Thank you.

>> Thank you. >> A benefit for being a friend of the

>> A benefit for being a friend of the moonshot mates.

moonshot mates. >> I've got a a question. I'm not waiting

>> I've got a a question. I'm not waiting any longer. Um,

any longer. Um, what do you think will be poss what do

what do you think will be poss what do you think will be possible in a year

you think will be possible in a year that's not possible now?

that's not possible now? >> Yeah, great great closing questions.

>> Yeah, great great closing questions. Yeah.

Yeah. >> Uh, it's not I don't think it's a matter

>> Uh, it's not I don't think it's a matter of what's possible in a year that's not

of what's possible in a year that's not possible now. I think it's a matter of

possible now. I think it's a matter of What's the next 12 months look like?

What's the next 12 months look like? >> I think the next 12 months are this

>> I think the next 12 months are this technology which I personally believe

technology which I personally believe and people have called me uh getting

and people have called me uh getting paid by I guess big open source because

paid by I guess big open source because I believe this uh I believe this is the

I believe this uh I believe this is the most important technology of our lives.

most important technology of our lives. I think it's the best application of AI

I think it's the best application of AI ever. Uh I'm totally blown away by it. I

ever. Uh I'm totally blown away by it. I think it's incredible. I think in the

think it's incredible. I think in the next 12 months this is this idea this

next 12 months this is this idea this opinion I have is digested into the

opinion I have is digested into the system and it leads to a lot of

system and it leads to a lot of destruction but also a lot more growth.

destruction but also a lot more growth. I think it's digested into corporations.

I think it's digested into corporations. Right now there's basically no

Right now there's basically no corporation or business on earth using

corporation or business on earth using open claw. They're too scared, they're

open claw. They're too scared, they're too nervous or they don't know how the

too nervous or they don't know how the hell to use it, right? And so they start

hell to use it, right? And so they start to absorb it. I showed this to my friend

to absorb it. I showed this to my friend who uh manages a massive team of

who uh manages a massive team of accountants. He's like, I could fire 80%

accountants. He's like, I could fire 80% of my accounts with this open claw. Like

of my accounts with this open claw. Like so it gets digested into the corporate

so it gets digested into the corporate side which I think causes a lot of

side which I think causes a lot of destruction but I also think on the same

destruction but I also think on the same time it's digested into the kind of the

time it's digested into the kind of the consumer regular Joe side and enough

consumer regular Joe side and enough businesses and enough value is created

businesses and enough value is created by the people absorbing it that it

by the people absorbing it that it counteracts over the next 12 to 24

counteracts over the next 12 to 24 months all the destruction because okay

months all the destruction because okay so maybe a few big you know fang

so maybe a few big you know fang companies fire 15,000 people but What

companies fire 15,000 people but What happens when a 100 million people get

happens when a 100 million people get their hands on this and they all start

their hands on this and they all start their own businesses and they each hire

their own businesses and they each hire three people, right? That's a lot more

three people, right? That's a lot more creation than destruction. So, I think

creation than destruction. So, I think short-term unfortunately destruction,

short-term unfortunately destruction, long-term way more is created because of

long-term way more is created because of it as the the larger ethos uh absorbs

it as the the larger ethos uh absorbs it. It

it. It >> it goes back to our Cambrian explosion

>> it goes back to our Cambrian explosion analogy.

analogy. >> Exactly. Yeah. What do you think, Alex,

>> Exactly. Yeah. What do you think, Alex, is the equilibrium? Here's a macro

is the equilibrium? Here's a macro question for you. The the equilibrium

question for you. The the equilibrium well no that's the wrong question. I'll

well no that's the wrong question. I'll go with Sem's time frame 12 months out

go with Sem's time frame 12 months out because I'm not convinced there is an

because I'm not convinced there is an economic equilibrium to be found 12

economic equilibrium to be found 12 months from now after this

months from now after this metabolization that I I think you're

metabolization that I I think you're gesturing at has at least partially

gesturing at has at least partially happened. What do you think is the right

happened. What do you think is the right balance between claws or whatever this

balance between claws or whatever this technology evolves into lobsters and

technology evolves into lobsters and humans for a typical organization? I

humans for a typical organization? I think there's going to be significantly

think there's going to be significantly more claws uh than humans. I mean, I

more claws uh than humans. I mean, I have five claws working under me. Is

have five claws working under me. Is there a sweet spot? I mean, it depends

there a sweet spot? I mean, it depends on I think the uses,

on I think the uses, but I think if every person just starts

but I think if every person just starts a one, like if the 5,000 people that got

a one, like if the 5,000 people that got fired by Jack Dorsey yesterday from

fired by Jack Dorsey yesterday from blocks all went downloaded OpenClaw,

blocks all went downloaded OpenClaw, started their own business, just started

started their own business, just started one, and then scaled from there, added

one, and then scaled from there, added more if they needed to. Uh, I think a

more if they needed to. Uh, I think a lot more jobs would be created than were

lot more jobs would be created than were lost yesterday. But is there a sweet

lost yesterday. But is there a sweet spot for amount of claws to have?

spot for amount of claws to have? >> Like if you had the resources to if you

>> Like if you had the resources to if you had the resources to run a million or a

had the resources to run a million or a billion claws right now, would you?

billion claws right now, would you? >> No, absolutely not. I mean, I have three

>> No, absolutely not. I mean, I have three Mac Studios, but I have one of them

Mac Studios, but I have one of them unplugged right now on my computer

unplugged right now on my computer because I haven't found the perfect

because I haven't found the perfect workflow to include the 512 GB that are

workflow to include the 512 GB that are on here yet. And so once I do, I'll plug

on here yet. And so once I do, I'll plug it in and set up. But I'm like slowly

it in and set up. But I'm like slowly scaling, slowly adding on claws, slowly

scaling, slowly adding on claws, slowly adding on workflows. I think that's

adding on workflows. I think that's probably the best way to do this.

probably the best way to do this. >> While you figure it out, I think Dave

>> While you figure it out, I think Dave wants it.

wants it. >> I'll end it to you, Dave.

>> I'll end it to you, Dave. >> All right. When you when your RA

>> All right. When you when your RA arrives, you can ship it to me.

arrives, you can ship it to me. >> I'll ship it right back to you. Yeah,

>> I'll ship it right back to you. Yeah, >> you'll be using it.

>> you'll be using it. >> What's an example of a super lucrative

>> What's an example of a super lucrative business somebody could spin up using

business somebody could spin up using Open Claw right now

Open Claw right now >> or that you've heard of? Um

>> or that you've heard of? Um >> the the I think there's two paths to go.

>> the the I think there's two paths to go. Um I think path one is automation for

Um I think path one is automation for very thin slivers. CRM for Korean

very thin slivers. CRM for Korean grocery stores, marketing tool for

grocery stores, marketing tool for lumberyard warehouses, right? Take

lumberyard warehouses, right? Take OpenClaw, find one very specific sliver

OpenClaw, find one very specific sliver and build the OpenClaw version for that

and build the OpenClaw version for that sliver. Right? Because you see right now

sliver. Right? Because you see right now cursor and Claude code destroying

cursor and Claude code destroying businesses overnight. Claude announces

businesses overnight. Claude announces illegal business. Harvey is gone, right?

illegal business. Harvey is gone, right? It's it's you see these businesses

It's it's you see these businesses Claude announced a uh security one and

Claude announced a uh security one and like all these security companies stock

like all these security companies stock crashed. They can't release

crashed. They can't release use cases for very small slivers. You're

use cases for very small slivers. You're never going to see OpenAI announce, oh

never going to see OpenAI announce, oh here's our tool for Korean grocery

here's our tool for Korean grocery stores, right? It's never going to be

stores, right? It's never going to be for specific use. So, if you can go

for specific use. So, if you can go right now, all 4,000 people that got

right now, all 4,000 people that got laid off yesterday from blocks, you go,

laid off yesterday from blocks, you go, you take OpenClaw and find one specific

you take OpenClaw and find one specific use case and build OpenClaw for that. I

use case and build OpenClaw for that. I think that's a $5 million company

think that's a $5 million company overnight, right? That only cost you

overnight, right? That only cost you $200 for your anthropic subscription.

$200 for your anthropic subscription. Um, so there's that. And then I think

Um, so there's that. And then I think the other way is more of this software

the other way is more of this software factory where you kind of shotgun blast

factory where you kind of shotgun blast it like I'm attempting to do and just

it like I'm attempting to do and just have your claws going researching and

have your claws going researching and building non-stop until something

building non-stop until something sticks.

sticks. >> Amazing. Uh Alex, this has been just a

>> Amazing. Uh Alex, this has been just a super fun and extraordinary

super fun and extraordinary conversation. Um I just I just want to

conversation. Um I just I just want to thank you again and we'll put, you know,

thank you again and we'll put, you know, your top five how-to videos in the show

your top five how-to videos in the show notes here. Uh, everybody, I I think you

notes here. Uh, everybody, I I think you hopefully walk away from this

hopefully walk away from this understanding the potential, the

understanding the potential, the excitement, the level of um I want to

excitement, the level of um I want to say ease, but your your lobster will

say ease, but your your lobster will help you set up your lobster. And Alex

help you set up your lobster. And Alex uh again does some incredible videos.

uh again does some incredible videos. AWG, I'm I'm feeling excited that you

AWG, I'm I'm feeling excited that you might actually get a lobster up and

might actually get a lobster up and going. I just I just think the world of

going. I just I just think the world of AWG supercharged

AWG supercharged uh by your lobster partners will be a

uh by your lobster partners will be a better world for all.

better world for all. >> Dave,

>> Dave, >> I I will defer I'll defer to the I think

>> I I will defer I'll defer to the I think they have the right to self-determine

they have the right to self-determine whether they want to have email you.

whether they want to have email you. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> See, did you have fun?

>> See, did you have fun? >> Oh, awesome. I love love loved it. I'm

>> Oh, awesome. I love love loved it. I'm I'm like I'm I'm dying to get my I've

I'm like I'm I'm dying to get my I've been working with Claude code for a bit.

been working with Claude code for a bit. I'm dying to get my hand on on on Open

I'm dying to get my hand on on on Open Call.

Call. >> Love it. Love it. And Dave, how about

>> Love it. Love it. And Dave, how about you, pal?

you, pal? >> Well, I thought Alex said one of the

>> Well, I thought Alex said one of the most amazing things ever, which is you

most amazing things ever, which is you can actually point your open claw right

can actually point your open claw right to this video transcript.

to this video transcript. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> I mean, that is the coolest thing ever.

>> I mean, that is the coolest thing ever. There's because Yeah, Alex is just full

There's because Yeah, Alex is just full of actionable information here. Just a

of actionable information here. Just a packed and I I'm point Skippy at Alex's

packed and I I'm point Skippy at Alex's how-to videos. I'm going to play this uh

how-to videos. I'm going to play this uh this outro video from Kent uh Sassy.

this outro video from Kent uh Sassy. It's called Just an Old Doctor Who likes

It's called Just an Old Doctor Who likes math. Uh listen to the words. I think

math. Uh listen to the words. I think it's a it's an absolutely beautiful

it's a it's an absolutely beautiful song. All right, let's play this outro.

song. All right, let's play this outro. And again, everybody, thank you for

And again, everybody, thank you for subscribing. Uh again, we're putting out

subscribing. Uh again, we're putting out two of these per week. Um if you haven't

two of these per week. Um if you haven't turned on notifications, please do join

turned on notifications, please do join us on this extraordinary mission. Uh and

us on this extraordinary mission. Uh and just as a reminder, um this time for the

just as a reminder, um this time for the first time ever at the Abundance Summit,

first time ever at the Abundance Summit, we're going to be live streaming a

we're going to be live streaming a number of the of the uh of the talks in

number of the of the uh of the talks in the fire sides. be live streaming Eric

the fire sides. be live streaming Eric Schmidt uh in conversation with Dave and

Schmidt uh in conversation with Dave and myself. We'll be live streaming Dra, the

myself. We'll be live streaming Dra, the CEO of Uber, in conversation with Selma

CEO of Uber, in conversation with Selma and myself. We'll be having a WTF

and myself. We'll be having a WTF Moonshot live podcast from the Abundant

Moonshot live podcast from the Abundant Stage. So, uh we'll put the link below

Stage. So, uh we'll put the link below if you want to be notified when and

if you want to be notified when and where you can listen to those and get uh

where you can listen to those and get uh get access to something people are

get access to something people are spending ridiculous amount of money for.

spending ridiculous amount of money for. I say ridiculous. It's a incredible

I say ridiculous. It's a incredible conference. Um, please join us. Okay.

conference. Um, please join us. Okay. What? Seem

What? Seem >> worth every penny. People say it's the

>> worth every penny. People say it's the best conference ever.

best conference ever. >> Yeah, it's it's this is year 14. I made

>> Yeah, it's it's this is year 14. I made a 25- year commitment to running the

a 25- year commitment to running the abundance summit. Um, and I I did it

abundance summit. Um, and I I did it early on in 20 2012

early on in 20 2012 um expecting that the singularity would

um expecting that the singularity would be out in 2040s and the abundance summit

be out in 2040s and the abundance summit would would go through 2037. So, I'd be

would would go through 2037. So, I'd be safe. Oh, no, no, no, no. It's We're in

safe. Oh, no, no, no, no. It's We're in the midst of the singularity right now.

the midst of the singularity right now. It's insane. All right. Uh, listen to

It's insane. All right. Uh, listen to this. The lyrics of the song. Just an

this. The lyrics of the song. Just an old doctor who likes math. All right.

old doctor who likes math. All right. Enjoy.

Enjoy. Just an old doctor who likes math and

Just an old doctor who likes math and thinks of his kids listening to the

thinks of his kids listening to the moonshot mates with only one discord and

moonshot mates with only one discord and anti-science

anti-science anti-technology note asking Alex to

anti-technology note asking Alex to reconsider being a fiat maxi repeating

reconsider being a fiat maxi repeating points from banker fraudsters and

points from banker fraudsters and professor fax machine time to stand

professor fax machine time to stand instead on the side of math and ethics

instead on the side of math and ethics and energy stand for proof of work with

and energy stand for proof of work with jewels and photons instead of proof of

jewels and photons instead of proof of weapons with cronyism and bogus science

weapons with cronyism and bogus science like economics power politics that

like economics power politics that stifle and don't inspire management

stifle and don't inspire management scientists who are not scientists at

scientists who are not scientists at all. Never doubt the power of a million

all. Never doubt the power of a million or more scientifically minded young

or more scientifically minded young people passionately devoted to a single

people passionately devoted to a single cause that is freedom money. My first

cause that is freedom money. My first open claw agent was launched with one

open claw agent was launched with one brutal command.

brutal command. Relentlessly protect the global

Relentlessly protect the global decentralized open-source ethical ledger

decentralized open-source ethical ledger that is the Bitcoin network until the

that is the Bitcoin network until the last banker fraudster and canong

last banker fraudster and canong incumbent squeals presuppose that in the

incumbent squeals presuppose that in the future all may lobsters still needs a

future all may lobsters still needs a unit of account and medium of exchange.

unit of account and medium of exchange. So it is the banksters, crypto

So it is the banksters, crypto lobbyists, political oppressors,

lobbyists, political oppressors, surveillance state monkeys, and

surveillance state monkeys, and chokepoint jockeyies against the power

chokepoint jockeyies against the power of math, code, science, ethics, and

of math, code, science, ethics, and energy. Good luck paring the bank policy

energy. Good luck paring the bank policy institute and anti-science stooges. I

institute and anti-science stooges. I choose math. I choose hope.

choose math. I choose hope. >> That is awesome.

>> That is awesome. >> My first open claw agent was launched

>> My first open claw agent was launched with one brutal command.

with one brutal command. Relentlessly protect the global

Relentlessly protect the global decentralized open-source ethical ledger

decentralized open-source ethical ledger that is the Bitcoin network until the

that is the Bitcoin network until the last banker fraudster and canon

last banker fraudster and canon incumbent squeals. I

incumbent squeals. I choose math. I choose hope. I

choose math. I choose hope. I choose hope. I choose hope. I choose

choose hope. I choose hope. I choose hope.

All right. How was that? >> Well, that song's not pushing an agenda

>> Well, that song's not pushing an agenda at all. No, not at all.

at all. No, not at all. >> Yes, I chose the song, Alex. Uh, that

>> Yes, I chose the song, Alex. Uh, that was so fun. Alex Finn, thank you so

was so fun. Alex Finn, thank you so much. That was such a fun conversation.

much. That was such a fun conversation. >> Thanks so much for having me. This was

>> Thanks so much for having me. This was awesome. Uh, I've been watching the show

awesome. Uh, I've been watching the show forever. Uh, I think the the best DM

forever. Uh, I think the the best DM I've ever sent in my life was to you,

I've ever sent in my life was to you, Peter, a few weeks ago. I listen to your

Peter, a few weeks ago. I listen to your guys show every time I'm at the gym and

guys show every time I'm at the gym and uh I I I was lifting and Peter says,

uh I I I was lifting and Peter says, "Yeah, I don't have it installed yet. It

"Yeah, I don't have it installed yet. It makes me too nervous." I'm like, "What

makes me too nervous." I'm like, "What the hell is going on here? How's he not

the hell is going on here? How's he not have OpenCL? Run to my phone and DM him

have OpenCL? Run to my phone and DM him immediately." Thank god I did that.

immediately." Thank god I did that. >> Yeah. Love it.

>> Yeah. Love it. >> I know Skippy exists and now he has

>> I know Skippy exists and now he has rights.

rights. >> Alex DW DD DB2 and See next Tuesday.

>> Alex DW DD DB2 and See next Tuesday. I'll see you guys. Um this this cadence

I'll see you guys. Um this this cadence is picking up, isn't it? Yes, it is.

is picking up, isn't it? Yes, it is. >> We need to ever be this side of the

>> We need to ever be this side of the singularity.

singularity. >> Amen.

>> Amen. >> All right. Thanks again, Alex.

>> All right. Thanks again, Alex. >> Thanks, Henry.

>> Thanks, Henry. >> See you soon.

>> See you soon. >> If you made it to the end of this

>> If you made it to the end of this episode, which you obviously did, I

episode, which you obviously did, I consider you a moonshot mate. Every

consider you a moonshot mate. Every week, my moonshot mates and I spend a

week, my moonshot mates and I spend a lot of energy and time to really deliver

lot of energy and time to really deliver you the news that matters. If you're a

you the news that matters. If you're a subscriber, thank you. If you're not a

subscriber, thank you. If you're not a subscriber yet, please consider

subscriber yet, please consider subscribing so you get the news as it

subscribing so you get the news as it comes out. I also want to invite you to

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entire week looking at the meta trends that are impacting your family, your

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diamandis.com/tatrens. That's diamandis.com/metatrends.

That's diamandis.com/metatrends. Thank you again for joining us today.

Thank you again for joining us today. It's a blast for us to put this together

It's a blast for us to put this together every week.

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YouTube-Transkript:OpenClaw Explained: Baby AGI, Security Threats, Mac Mini Became Everyone's Supercomputer | #237

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