This content exposes how certain Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs), particularly those focused on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, are allegedly used as proxies for political warfare and financial gain, often funded by international bodies and operating with a lack of transparency and accountability.
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Well, ladies and gentlemen, I must be
honest and say I'm kind of looking
forward to this interview because when I
was in Israel, I met Elga, who works for
NGO Monitor, and they do some very
interesting stuff in terms of tracking
where funding for various uh entities
might go. And so I'm very pleased to say
that Elga actually agreed to do an
interview with us. So, welcome to the
show, Elga.
>> My pleasure. Thank you for having me.
So can you tell us a little bit firstly
just before we kind of get into the
detail what does NGO monitor do?
>> Sure. So we are an Israel based uh
research organization created by
professor Gerald Steinberg uh 24 years
ago um actually inspired by the infamous
UN conference on racism in Durban South
Africa in 2001 and uh you know
everywhere else around the world I had
to explain what that conference uh uh
was and stands for but I guess for the
audience in South Africa it is not the
But uh to sum it up, basically the civil
society in a parallel NGO summit at that
conference took upon itself to uh serve
as the main vehicle of institutionalizing
institutionalizing
for the past 20 plus years, the mantra
of the slogan Zionism is racism, which
we also colloquially refer to as the
beginning of the BDS movement as we know
it um today. So our organization was
created and Phil now serves as the only
of its kind to provide critical reports
and analysis on how civil society
organizations particularly those that
define themselves as human rights and
humanitarian NOS's engage in the
conflict of the Israeli Palestinian
conflict. And um what our research shows
is that a lot of them instead of
promoting this you know word mazes they
promote anti-semitism often times serve
as Palestinian and Muslim Brotherhood
terror uh proxies
um insight to violence glorify violence
um and so on basically try to deny
Israel the right to exist as the only
Jewish homeland. If that were not
enough, then we added to that mix um an
approach which basically says follow the
money. We wanted to understand who uh
who funds these groups and where they
raised their money from. And this is not
the case for all of them, but definitely
a lot of them are actually funded
through taxpayers dollars through
official development and cooperation
humanitarian aid uh money. So that is uh
that what NGO monitor does.
Okay. So you mentioned in in Israel when
we spoke so you mentioned that there
were a number of organizations
three you mentioned three specifically
that are the the broadest at the top of
the hierarchy. They the ones getting the
majority of the money in order to fund
uh should we say Islamist type
activities globally.
Who are those three and how are they
connected? So it's important to
understand that if we're talking about a
global network and they all work
together. So even if one or two or three
NOS's spare head runs with something the
rack will pick it up. Now we have a
database of uh hundreds of NOS's and
they range from huge ones like Human
Rights Watch and Amnesty International
and Oxford that everyone uh would have
heard of all the way to a bunch of
Palestinian groups uh like the three
that we discussed when you were here in
Israel and they are Al-Mazan
and PCHR
Palestinian Center for Human Rights. Now
all three are affiliated to our
designated Palestinian prayer
organization, Popular Fronts for the
Liberation of Palestine. And when I say
affiliated or linked, what I really
mean, and this is what all of our
reports are based on, that is open
source information. we can show that
they have uh verifiably verifiable and
easy to act by anyone uh links to this
their organization their uh their
leadership you know appears uh their
event sometimes holds double positions
so when I say open source information
right that we can easily prove that they
are linked to uh PFP that is exactly
what I mean all our reports are based on
open source information which basically
means to the original website, social
media accounts, reports, events,
statements made by the NOS's themselves.
So these three uh organizations that are
referred to as the some of the biggest
Palestinian so-called human rights
groups were just this past September. So
September 2025 designated by in a
special executive order by the US um
state department not necessarily for
their terror affiliation rather for
their abuse of legal uh systems for
their welfare. And this is because they
were spearheading the uh our lawfare
against Israel and by extension the US
at the international criminal court in
the Hague. And given that both Israel
and the US are not signaries to the
wrong statute, right? uh the US felt
that it is a direct threat also against
the US to um to to uh work uh with these
groups especially that the executive
order basically says instead of
promoting human rights these groups
serve as proxies you know that are only
seeking to abuse these international
legal systems. Now these three NOS's are
not only active at the international
criminal court in the H. Um Alak was one
of the co-authors of the South African
claim against Israel in the
international court of justice right
that was brought to in front of the
court in February 2024. When we analyzed
the South African claim we actually
found 22 footnotes leading to similar
NGO reports. All of them declaring
themselves as human rights organization.
And we have this tendency of um sort of
believing them blindly, right? um and
referred to them as objective collectors
of truth uh from the field um bearsers
of facts of systematic abuses of
international law, human rights and so
on where in practice they often times
serve as we said as proxies of their
organizations. Um these same
organizations were the first ones to
launch the starvation campaign liable
against Israel. The same goes for the
apartheid and genocide li alak was also
behind every attempt some of them
successful to ban Israeli companies from
presenting at uh security and defense
trade shows in France in the last two
years. And last but definitely not least
um Alak and PCHR and and uh some of
these groups were also behind lawsuits
in UK, the Netherlands, France, Germany,
Belgium um and US basically trying to
prove through legal cases that
respective governments would be
complicit in uh crime against humanity,
right? generosite by providing the state
of Israel with um arms uh most
specifically the USF-35
>> Now, interestingly enough, you mentioned
uh that a lot of the funding for these
three organizations actually come from
places like the EU. Tell us a bit about
the funding.
>> Absolutely. So the EU is the largest
donor of aid in the world and the same
goes for the Palestinian Authority and
Palestinian civil society. In Europe,
it's sort of part of the um the culture,
the cultural texture where the European
governments believe that they have a a a
responsibility including taking parts of
the official budget of each state to and
inject it into civil society. This goes
way back to after the second world war
where European uh governments wanted to
make sure that there's a vibrant stable
society that should sort of serve as a
complimentary and safeguard if you want
not complimentary but maybe a safeguard
to make sure that another Nazi Germany
uh regime does not uh rise right so to
have a already a sort of a parallel
political structure empowered by the
people right through civil society
organizations but very quickly it also
became became a mechanism through which
they promote uh human rights, democracy,
sustainable development in other
countries around the world as far be
beyond the EU borders, right? And the
Palestinian Authority and Palestinian
civil society is one such area where
they invest a lot and when I say a lot,
we talk about uh tens of millions of
euros or dollars every year. So all
three of these organization in the last
20 years because this phenomenon started
actually after the Oswell courts uh were
signed and the EU became a partner right
um in building what they believe will
one day become a two-state solution. um
they have invested millions, tens of
millions in these uh organizations, but
more importantly than money, they have
entrusted them and they enable them
basically legitimize them as their
trusted partners. Because if you take a
group like Alhak right and you bring you
don't only give them a grant year in
year out uh but you also bring them to
conferences and you quote their reports
in official resolutions and official EU
documents and German documents and so on
then you you not only empower them
financially but you actually by putting
the logo of the EU or any other
government you basically state these
guys are trustworthy. We say that right
we trust everything that they say. Now
the some of these groups there are six
took place on the outskirts of Jerusalem
which left a 17 years old uh Israeli
girl Marina Schnner uh brutally murdered
on spot. and the sixth uh NOS's their
most senior employees were actually
physically involved and consequently
arrested. When this became public, um,
we raised the information about the
involvement with all the EU officials
and EU member states who at that moment
funded them with tens of millions of
euros and it it just started a global
debate where the governments and this
we're already going diving into um how
the governments engage on this topic and
as you can imagine not always open for
discussion. um they basically said this
cannot be and even if it is true then
just because there's one or two people
in each of these organizations that
might have been involved in a terror
attack that it does not implicate the
whole organization. Now it is really to
me it is a cognitive dissonance because
in any other sphere of life we would
apply simple logics right if you you
know let's just talk about that poor CEO
who was caught cheating right or at a
cold play concert he didn't cheat
>> the coplay concert meeting
>> exactly now his adultery
>> is in no way testimony to his inability
to make sane business decision isions,
right? Yet his business career was over
in a second. In a second.
>> Now, we will do the same when it comes
to our elected officials. But somehow
when it comes to the civil society to
NOS's, you know, gift to gifters or
UNICEF or, you know, take
>> we're going to talk about gift of the
givers in a minute.
>> Yes. We throw all that logic through the
window and we just say there's this sort
of halo around them. The minute that
they say that they promote human rights
or that they provide humanitarian aid,
we trust them blindly. And the
terrorization and radical elements have
long identified this as a as an
opportunity and that's exactly what is
happening. uh now since the European
governments have stopped funding the six
organizations that I just mentioned were
involved in the terror attack but it has
taken years of campaigning and raising
awareness on this issue and it remains a
huge problem because what very few
people know is that when governments
provide humanitarian aid anywhere
between 10% and one quarter of it
actually is not in labor as physical
aid. So not medication or tense or baby
formula. Rather it goes to what these
governments u uh label as political
advocacy project and political advocacy
project in the Palestinian context
almost always go to ICC, ICJ, lawfare
against Israel. basically different
types of political attack against the
legitimacy of the very fact that Israel
exists as a Jewish state.
Let's let's talk about this a little bit
more. So we know three organizations are
are responsible for the majority of the
messaging. The majority of the money is
coming from the EU
and they the ones who ultimately are
kind of like collaborating with all the
different governments. So you mentioned
that the ICJ case has numerous links in
their reference notes all back to the
same organizations and so these
organizations are self-certifying
whatever they want to do and saying we
know this is happening cuz I said so and
I'm referencing myself when I said so.
So it's it's kind of it would be
insidious there, but the reality is
nobody is either willingly
it's either they willingly don't want to
look at it because as you say they like
this idea of this halo affect the people
or the alternative is that they're just
complicit in what's going on. They they
actually kind of like agree with it but
they don't want to publicly say that
because they know the member states are
not really that keen on funding
terrorism. So the question now becomes
where does South Africa fit into this?
Who's funding the activity or the
messaging in South Africa? So you you
explain you perfectly explain a
phenomena. I think it's not a phenomenon
that is unique for uh you know for
Israel or for the Israeli Palestinian
conflict. I think it's a glo global
phenomenon and we see this around the
world. But what is unique for our corner
of the world here is how disproportionately
disproportionately
uh the volumes right how much of it we
get and um and more so you don't have
any other uh conflict written area where
there's where there is such a
concentration and polarization and politization
politization
of the conflict even aid they are not
they're they're unable to provide aid
without politicizing it, right? Um I I
think the goal of this campaign is not
necessarily even to get Israel um you
know convicted in any one of these
courts or you know you also have a a
peda front in your job um that was
created after a year after October the
7th whose sole purpose is again to abuse
legal systems around the world to hunt
down Israeli soldiers when they're
traveling around the world. And the goal
of this is not to get any one of them
actually arrested because legally, let's
face it, they don't really have a case.
They don't really have a case. Israel is
not an apartheite. Israel is not
perpetrating genocide. Israel uh Israeli
army did not use starvation as a tool of
war. Um all of this is rubbish. There's
no other words for this. But um the goal
of this is to create an environment uh
an atmosphere in the global um you know
public and media where these words
genocide, apartheid, starvation,
uh systematic violations of humor of
international law and so on are
continuously repeated in the context of
Israel where it doesn't even matter
eventually if it's true or not because
the majority of people will have heard
the name Israel in the court of these
words. Um you know someone said it
really uh uh wisely in all the legal uh
proceedings they'll say intent to commit
a genocide risk of genocide and so on.
But when this is reported in the media
all these words next to the word
genocide disappear and genocide is the
only thing that remains there. Um and um
I think that um in that sense it should
be seen as a political warfare being uh
waged by these terror groups that is
completely complimentary to the physical
war and this as a phenomenon is also not
a novelty. that terror organizations
they've long understood and terror
entities are directly this look at look
at Putin's Russia they also the only war
they're waging is not a physical war in
Ukraine or against Ukraine they are
waging a political war a resources war a
war of sphere of influence all fair
entities all radical entities operate uh
the same the challenge on our end is
that our respective societies don't have
policies in place that adapt
to address this to identify it uh you
know call it by its name let alone
sanction it uh because for that we need
to regulate the space and we need to be
able to identify the problem uh by what
it is now you want to talk about the
South African um uh context a bit well
>> and how and how it how it goes how it
actually connects here yes 100% So look
there are countries where these NOS's
operate in uh contr to the official line
of that of their respective governments.
you know, you'll have a situation where
Germany says um Israel's right to exist
as a state and Israel's right to defend
itself is part of Germany's res right
the deta of the country and actually
this is the line that is included in
every government's coalition agreement
and then when you have a situation the
German government is funding a a terror
affiliated Palestinian NGO that works
directly to undermine that or an even
better example when South Africa had the
uh the claim against Israel ICJ right
that Germany was one of the the state
parties that wanted to intervene on
behalf of Israel but then you have a
paradoxical situation that the German
minister of foreign affairs is an NGO
that it was a co-author of the South
African play right but in South African
case you have a different situation
where uh the official South African line
is very critical of Israel Right. And
I'm being kind. Um, South Africa is the
one that is making the legal case
against Israel at the International
Court of Justice. So, it does not come
as a surprise that there's also a lot of
foundations and a lot of civil society
in South Africa that operates very
freely and very critically of Israel.
Now, if these groups were only critical
of Israel, that would be okay. You know,
you can have an opinion on the conflict,
occupation, 1600 line, green line, the
you know, where the border should be.
But when that line is crossed and these
groups deny Israel's right to exist as a
Jewish homeland, well, they paint
Zionism as supremacist
uh political movement, racist um and so
on and throw liles like apartheid and
and genocide and starvation. and then
these become issues. Now I mentioned the
um gift of the givers right uh the South
African foundation I think it is
>> and ju just just just for context at the
weekend gift to the giver became very um
renowned because we had a refugee plane
come into South Africa from Palestine
that uh shouldn't have been here and the
gift of the givers were the ones that
ultimately called up the government and
said can you have these people released
to us and we'll look after them. So
people are now wondering what's going on
with the gift of the givers. And it's
very important to understand that the
Sullean the individual who runs it is a
proud Islamist and that's not being
liless. It's it he is a proud Islamist.
He actually stood in the 94 elections as
part of the the Muslim party that
advocated for Sharia law.
>> So he he is well known on his positions.
he's publicly said in the public domain,
if he has to choose between the legal
system of a state and Sharia law, he'll
always pick Sharia law because that law
trumps every other law in the world. So
the I'm not saying things that he's not
on record saying, but that's led many
individuals to wonder what is his
connection to all of this. And and not
only that but like he officially states
that the gift of the givers was uh he
created it as a result of direct
instruction that he received from his uh
spiritual mentor shake who also promotes
Islamist teachings and so on. Um, now
I'm not sure if this is going to be a
novelty because anyone who Googles his
name will have read that Sullean it was
a co-founder of the South African
chapter of Alaka Foundation and amongst
others that the gift of the givers was
also giving uh donations making
donations to Union of Good which is
basically a bonafide uh Humas entity in
Gaza. In 2008
it was designated as such by the US
state department as a kamas basically
entity and we have some public records
that suling and the givers were uh grant
giving them funds uh even in 2011
meaning way after um the designation of
the US state department.
But let's clarify something. G of the
givers on paper provide aid and rescue
missions and and disaster relief
services around the world. They say I
think 47 countries or something like
that. But it's important to understand
when it comes to Gaza, there are no
NOS's that don't know what's going on.
Anyone who operates inside of Gazna is
either at least in the best of cases is
fully aware of the extent of the police
state that kamas was running or was
completely complicit. Right? That's that
this is a fact. Um the kamas was doing
surveillance on all NGO activists. the
NOS's had to run the list of uh
employees and the list of grants by
Hamas people in Gaza. Hamas was uh
involved in deciding together and
coordinating with NOS's who to give uh
grants assistance to and who not. A lot
of these were distributed according to
Kamas list of priority. There we have on
record number of organizations that
worked in Gaza and provided cash
assistance. Now uh contrary to what your
listeners might think, it doesn't mean
that you know there's an organization
that comes with a suitcase or $2 million
in cash to distribute uh in Gaza. Rather
these are uh distributed through
something that is called digital
wallets. And then there's a a network of
what they call exchangers in Gaza. Uh
think of it as the Gaza version of
Western Union if you'd like who
basically would take this digital wallet
and uh give you the cash on spot. Now um
it is believed that at least onethird of
these exchangers literally belong to
Hamas. But for any one of them, it is a
known fact that uh Hamas was taking
their cut anywhere between 20 and 40%.
To think that anyone could have come
into Gaza and operated without knowing
that this is happening without
coordinating to a certain extent with
Hamas is completely being naive. Now the
problem is that I have is not even that
a lot of the organization would say okay
let's say you know I my mandate is to
provide aids I want to reach reach the
you know the population in need so you
know Gaza is ran by someone else so I
don't have a choice but to coordinate
with them to some extent that I can even
wrap my mind around what I cannot
understand and what I will not accept is
that after October October the 7th and
everything that happened on October the
7th and that transpired after every one
of these organizations including Dr.
Sulleman and Gifters Gifter um um
>> exactly um every time that there was
evidence of systematic appropriation of
aid or abuse of infrastructure, every
time that there was a media report that
you know Israeli army um targeted a
hospital, right? The NOS's did not say
yes, but it's a police tape and every uh
hospital had uh a Hamas wing and Hamas
was using uh civilians as human shields.
On the contrary, they went to they went
out with statements echoing Hamas
narrative and condemning Israel. We had
uh original kamat documents that uh were
taken from Gaza that clearly show like
in the kamat documents they say every
hospital and medical center in Gaza is
to have kamas wing. Everyone working in
the hospital and every NGO working there
knows that this is the way that they
should not approach. Most certainly when
there is Hamas people around and
definitely when there are Hamas
operatives for example they are being
rescued or brought for medical care or
whatever. But not only for medical care,
they were using this as military bases
because they were protected and because
part of the worthy of kamasis was
portraying this global picture, right,
that um that uh makes Israel look like
the bad guy, like the pariah state. And
this is how you have a complete moral
inversion basically uh take place where
you have a designated terror organization
organization
by most governments around the world
that uh committed the worst pub against
Jews since the Holocaust. And yet the
country, a democratic state that is
going out to defend its civilian
is being seen as the pariah state. And
instead of saying, "But hold on, let's
investigate you know how is uh all this
happening?" you have the entire
humanitarian community and human rights
community only paring and echoing um
their narratives.
>> Okay. So I I need to try understand now.
So obviously what you're saying is
effectively that
what we're seeing is gift to the giver
is is well aware that the funds that go
through it that it channels to the
Palestinian cause is going via Hamas. So
they're getting money from they're
giving effectively they're giving money
to Hamas. So even if they try to say
well we're not you'd say well no they
are because they know that Hamas skims
money off the top. So it's kind of like
everybody knows that so they know that.
And what you're suggesting is that
>> you know it will be the same Byron as
saying you know we gave to a foundation
that is ran by an al-Qaeda person but we
have proper and sufficient vetting
mechanisms in place. So we know that
none of that money went to uh to pay the
guard who hijacked the plane and d flew
it into the twin towers. I mean money is punchable.
punchable.
>> I think I think I understand that. Yeah.
Yeah. So the the the key so the key
thing there is okay so Suliman is then
pushing forward forms of pro should we
call it pro prop pro propaganda or pro
Palestinian propaganda because as you've
described there's a lot of the the
documentation and you know some people
will will be very critical of that
propaganda some of them will say it's
not true some of them say it is that's
not the point so the point effectively
then becomes what is Sullean's connection
connection
through to these top funders, the the
three that you mentioned before and what
is his connection to the South African
government? How much interaction is he
having with the South African government
in terms of how is he getting the money
from our state in order to fund his
operations? Well, look, he he's been
running a very successful long forprofit
operation that has chneled
millions of dollars, right, since the
creation. He clearly works very closely
with the government. But again, we spoke
about the echo chamber, right? It's not
only the market, the government uh looks
up to him as a source of expertise.
um uh you know
>> we and we're going to talk about that in
a in a second. So if we if we just get
through the money aspect that's the
first part and then we definitely need
to talk about the the what the
government goes to him for because
that's becoming more important by the
way I won't be able to even answer this
question for you. I think that is the
question that you and all the viewers in
South Africa need to demand that the
government reforms. Most governments are
not transparent on this issue. So it it
begs a question whether there is any
publicly available information on how
much um how much exactly and and where
the money goes and bits the issue is not
necessarily how much the question is
does the government know are they giving
them money what are the conditions right
what does the contract between the
government and Dr. Selma look like and
are there any safeguards in that
contract making sure that should there
be known you know should there be made
known that some of their money goes
directly to Hamas and we have evidence
what is the government doing about it
right um
>> so more importantly is so more
importantly is I don't know if you know
this but in South Africa we have KFC and
at KFC every time you order chicken they
ask you if you want to add a two rand
donation Now that two rand donation I
know it's not a lot of money it's like
two rand you can give more that directly
goes to give the givers give to the givers
givers
>> so it is
>> so KFC themselves are collecting money
for the giver
>> so there's another question do KFC know
where the money is going and I think
it's a perfect I did not know that but I
think it's an illustrative example and
there's many such examples around the
world in Australia you have the a huge
charity world vision v vision right that
collects money. Similarly, it's the same
like unis used to sell their Christmas
postcards and you would basically be
making a a donation. But that is a
question. How who know if the businesses
know and whether the public knows where
does that money go to? And if they knew,
would they be okay knowing that they
funded a kamas operation? Hamas
operation that it was proven that Union
of Goods is a front for Hamas. This is
basically a channel to uh embezzle aid
money and allow it to go straight to
Hamas senior uh officials. I think we
have a it's it's a it's a situation that
surpasses $2 or you know um any one of
these uh donations. I think it's a um
it's a question that hits to the core.
We don't know. We don't know. And yet we
are sending money blindly to a conflict
area to a terror club that is ran by a
terror organization.
Why would why would we even assume that
it will not go to Hamas? Right? We are
all here sitting busying ourselves with
trying to prove that it is going to
kamas. To my mind, logic would say,
"Show me how it wouldn't in a in a
territory that is completely uh
controlled by a organization and instead
of having state intervention that says
it is my obligation to make sure that
taxpayers money but any other, you know,
allowing Dr. Simmer to raise funds like
that um does not end up in their uh
money would be an imperative. But look,
it's not the only example. I don't know
if uh if you will know this, but uh
South Africa and NOS's and foundations
were also involved in um in a smaller
scale, but equally dramatic uh NGO
scandal in Brussels in um in the winter
of 2024, not connected to Israel and the
conflict and the war in Gaza. It was the
infamous Qatar Gate in Brussels where basically
basically
there were there was a a list of members
of the European Parliament in Brussels
that ultimately received bride and lots
of money to um to change
change
the human rights reports on Qatar in the
respective human rights committee and
subcommittees in the European
Parliament. went ahead of the Montial in
Qatar because they wanted their human
rights global track record to be better
than it than what it really is. And one
of the deals, one of the larger
donations was actually made through um
through a South African uh foundation.
So there is something I think
systematically problematic with how this
entire field is regulated in South
Africa because it clearly allows for
just about anyone to raise money from
just about anyone and transfer it to
just about anyone. And creating an NGO
is the easiest thing in the world. It
takes you a few signatures and appeal uh
a post box right and um in five minutes.
So it it does not come as a surprise
that NOS's non-government organiz
organization would be the easiest to
abuse or or use as vehicles. But
particularly in the South African case,
there's clearly a lot of loopholes in
how this whole field is uh regulated.
>> Yeah. So let's let's talk then about the
gift of the givers and the actual
influence they have on the South African
government. So it looks like they have I
mean the southern government will say no
of course they don't have that much of
an influence but I'm sure you you'll
know that one of the uh pledges made by
Son Paula the president of South Africa
during the GNU which we now have is we
have what's called a national dialogue.
So a national dialogue we still don't
really know what a national dialogue is
apart from just loads of people standing
around saying things are wrong with the
country let's fix them. Uh but the
person that he's appointed to chair it
is Sullean. He's he's the chair. Um so
the gift of the givers is the chair of
it. Now more interesting was what
happened when it came out that Sullean
himself was
involved in the Palestinian plane that
arrived here because it appeared many
people did some investigations. It
appears that he's actually been shipping
people in here for some time. So, this
is the plane that became to the public's
awareness, but planes have been coming
in for a good period now and the
government's kind of allowed it. So,
he's clearly had a direct line to blout
forms of local legislation and lo local
policy and nobody's really challenged
that until now that it's actually come
to the media, you know, the media's
attention. But more importantly out of
all of this is is what happened after
that plane was stopped. He was on camera
with the EFF, the MK party and the ANC.
He had direct lines to all of these
individuals and all of them said after
his meeting that they were there to
promote the Palestinian cause. So it's
very difficult at this point in time
which many people will say that
Solomon's organization is directly aimed
at providing aid to South Africans
because when it came down to it his
discussions with these three political
party all leftleaning socialist type
parties I might add um was all about the
Palestinian cause and very little to do
with helping South Africa. So from your
perspective, what do you see as the gift
of the givers role now in our
government? How how influential are they?
they?
>> Well, they seem to be very extremely
influential, not only to have uh you
know, you talk about the direct line,
but I think the fact that he was
appointed the chair of that uh new
entity that was created, the national
>> Exactly. the um the prestige and the
respect that he enjoys everywhere, the
access that he gets to media, to
decision makers. He is seen as someone
who dictates the discourse. Now,
he not only has access to the
government, he can actually uh whisper
sort of into the governmental ears, what
does that really mean in practice?
promoting the Palestinian cause. To
promote the Palestinian cause on its own
is not a bad thing. You can have an
opinion on it, right? You can agree with
it. You can disagree with it. But to to
do to promote the Palestinian cause is
not a not a punishable act. That's not
terror on its own. What it is a very uh
it should be a punishable act is to
promote Palestinian terror to promote
Palestinian denouncing of Israel right
to exist and thus basically denouncing
the Jewish uh right of
self-determination to talk about a
two-state solution where you're only
promoting one state right uh but you're
you're actually saying that the other
state has absolutely no right to exist
to justify terrorist you know, to uh to
justify the crimes that happened, you
know, to call kidnapping of uh women and
children that took place on October the
7 and holding them hostages to call to
refer to them as prisoners. These are
things that uh we should not be hearing
from people such as Dr. Sulimal with
such access to the government. And I
think that when you know uh where his
motivation comes from right and you
mentioned his stance for the Sharia law
etc and then you know his track record
of freely channeling money and working
and co-founding the Alexa foundation and
channeling money to Hamas
then it's a direct line to what kind of
consulting and advice he will be giving
to the government and I think the
question is not how much access he has,
but why would a government sub
commmission someone like that to to
draft basically their official positions
on uh on a conflict in a third uh third
country. I think it is detrimental to to
South Africa. I think it is detrimental
to the legacy of uh overthrowing
apartheid. South African people are the
only people in the world who truly
understand what apartheid was and to
basically abuse that legacy and to
cheapen it right through what is
currently going on I think is mainly an
insult to the history uh of South Africa
and to what apartheid uh really was. I
think um with such legacy instead of
picking up places where true genocides
are taking place as we speak right but
instead to go to one of the smallest
conflicts in the world. I think that
that that just these are the questions
that the people of South Africa should
be are demanding the government to
answer and they should be demanding accountability.
accountability.
Why are why is the government basically
commissioning Dr. Fuliman and his nearly
radical track record and radical ideology
ideology
um to dictate the South African uh
policies. Now to connect it to the three
organizations that we were talking
about, it's all part of the same
ecosystem, right? They all promote and
support each other. They pick up each
other's narratives and you know each
promote them in their respective uh
fields. So um I don't know if there was
any funding to the the three
organizations again because how do we
even follow the money right? None of
these groups issue uh financial reports.
So we it's not like we would know from
their annual statements. We have to uh
you know we have to pick what is
publicly available. So if the government
that is transparent and most of them are
not but when they publish a report and
then they mention that they funded one
of these groups you know then we will
know about it but there is absolutely no
way for me to uh if I resort only to
publicly available information to
understand if there was any funding uh
between these groups but it is not to
say that there wasn't especially that
the South African connection is so clear
and that these groups were so heavily
invested in uh both uh bringing about
the international free court in the H
and the International Court of Justice
in the K uh cases against Israel. So I I
would ask a question the other way
around. Prove me that they're not
from your perspective when you when you
see everything that's going on in South
Africa and you see the way that the ANC
is interacting with these entities
specifically and it is an ANC
interaction you find that we have a GNU
in South Africa and the other GNU
parties aren't that interested in in the
issue but the ANC specifically is very
invested that raises two questions the
first is why are they heavily invested
and the second is what's the end goal
here like what are they actually after
>> well why I think uh part of this is just
the failure of our democratic structures
right that we should have had have in
place so even when uh radical voices or
individuals uh come into power we should
be able to keep them you know in tow and
in mind but clearly the regulations we
have in place are not suffic sufficient
now what is the motivation I really
think it's a clash of civilizations. I
think we're looking into um an attempt
to preserve liberal democracies
with all the issues and challenges. You
know, in a liberal, open free democratic
society, people disagree all the time.
And you will say something that I will
fundamentally disagree with and we will
fight over it in a civilized
conversation. And there will be space
for both of us in the public sphere as
opposed to dogmatic
um uh often time Islam motivated
uh you know political ideologies and
world orders you know the way that they
regulate their society that are now
being um that they're hiding behind this
aura of human rights and progressive
ideas but in In fact, they are
everything. But I think that a lot of
these ideas are more dogmatic than um
than uh you know very uh dictatorship
type regimes that we have seen in the
past. Exactly. Because they relativize
the the morality. They relativize what
is right, what is wrong. What used to be
black and white today is no no longer.
Um and um and I think that once we allow
that to penetrate our public uh sphere
and public discourse, we are on a very
problematic trajectory that is going
downwards. Um and I think in the sake of
protecting the democracies and this is a
global challenge not only in South
Africa. I think South Africa is in a
particularly bad shape but it is not
alone right. I think it is one of the
greatest battles of our generation
um to to to really save uh the free
democracies. The most the majority of
the world is not organized in liberal
societies. So when we allow them to come
into our countries and become part of
the political discourse which on its own
is okay, we should be the ones dictating
the rules of that engagement in our
respective democratic societies. And the
reality that we are seeing in too many
places is that they come they often come
as refugees or you know underprivileged
or we we want to help them um and
integrate them but instead of drawing
the clear red lines we allow them to
basically tell us I fled from a bad
society but now I want to replicate it
in yours and I think that is one of the
greatest challenges of our really of our generation.
generation.
Okay. And on a final question, so one of
the things we discussed, so I remember
asking you a question when I was in
Israel. I said, "Look, what's with all
the funding? Like it's all coming from
three organizations. They they're
propagating some of the some of the
messaging down. You can see how it's
influencing us on a local level. We can
see how they they're pushing forms of
propaganda. And you can see that the
reason they're pushing their propaganda
is it allows them to raise more funds."
And I said to you, "What's what's the
end goal here?" And you said, "Look,
effectively this is just a giant money
laundering scheme because it's
effectively a way for these entities to
gain large amounts of money, skim a load
of it off the top. Some of these people
are living their best lives abroad
whilst the the causes they purport to to
be pushing aren't really advancing and
the people are still living in very
difficult situations. So talk to me a
little bit about that, but I'll leave it
there and I won't ask any more questions
after that." Well, it's a very lucrative
business. Think about it. You don't have
a product that you're selling. You're
selling an emotion and an idea. There's
endless pool of money coming from
governments, right? Um, and if you
become part of the system, it almost
becomes on renewable bases, right? You
become one of the the standing partners
for many of these uh governments and
their trusted partner. Um, a lot of
these people actually operate most of
the time abroad outside of Gaza or
outside of Ramla, right? So
proportionately to their
>> many a lot of them in Saudi Arabia in Qatar
Qatar
>> and um exactly just like a lot of the
Kamas uh seniors are far away from from
Gaza. They're living the most lavishing
lives around the world. So um NGO
activists compared to the life standard
living standard in Gaza for example they
have disproportionately
look you know lavishing uh lifestyles
they are strapping down the corridors of
parliament around the world speaking on
panels attending conferences jet setting
you know uh from place to place around
the world u all the while talking
amazing things promoting human rights
you know uh providing humanitarian aid
defending the the Palestinian people. So
now uh at the on one hand it's a polit
it's a political activism 100% part of
political activism a lot of it inspired
by total terror organizations. Now you
know we can have a conversation is is is
denouncing Israel's right to exist uh uh
an ideology exclusively to kamas. No
it's not right. Most of the polit the
Palestinian uh political parties also
have military wings and all of them by
the by the way Islamic Jihad and popular
through the liberation of Palestine are
designated ter organizations but what we
understand less as societies and as
policy makers is that all of them also
have charitable branches right NGO uh
weights kas was created as a welfare
organization in Gaza and then went on to
the University of Gaza, right? So they
came from this soft so to speak area
only to become full-blown uh weaponized
terra groups and it is the same with all
of them. So the it is the intertwining
between between a very appealing very
lavishing lifestyle where you are in
many places uh regarded almost like a
diplomat. We also in the 21st century I
think that uh being uh uh a CEO of a
major non-governmental organization
speaking with Dr. Sullean grants you an
even greater respect in the public eyes
than being a diplomat and and thus it
gives you access to decision makers
around the world and an un incredible
power. But as opposed to a diplomat or
an elected official, you owe no one any
explanations. It is a completely um uh
you know um void of regulation
industry. I call it an industry because
you can access any parliament, you can
lobby any government, you can say
whatever you want and no rules apply to
you. No checks and balancing. So it
makes it on think of uh how it easily it
it must get into a world's head that you
can do just about anything. Now the the
three organizations that we mentioned
and with this we can you know sort of uh
complete a full circle. They're regulars
at the United Nations. They hold uh they
hold conferences. They make official
submissions. They're being quoted by the
United Nations um
parliaments around the world. It is it
is a very corrupt morally and
financially industry. Um and it is about
time that we call it outrage. It is not
to say and many people will accuse uh
NGO monitor of this. We are not saying
that all NOS's are bad. Civil society is
the backbone of any democracy and we
need a thriving civil society but all of
us and they say us because NGO Motor is
part of civil society. We're an NGO. We
need to be held accountable for every
word that we write and every report that
we put out there. If we don't do that,
then as societies, we're not up to the
challenge to fight the face of terror in
>> Well, thanks very much for for all of
your insights on that. I think I I found
it quite interesting when we spoke in
Israel. It's interesting to see how this
all kind of like fits together. And in
the South African context, it's kind of
important to understand we're not immune
to this. In fact, we're actually like
it's actually easier for us because as
you said, NOS's don't really have any
law governing them and South Africa is
not very good at enforcing our laws
anyway. So, NOS's the operation of NOS's
here is like it's free haven and you
know we've we've long had arguments on
whether or not you know NOS's in South
Africa should have greater scrutiny,
oversight and regulation, but that's a
different debate entirely. But uh I
thank you so much for your time and uh
really do appreciate you taking the time
to come on and speak to me.
>> Thank you so much for having me and I uh
I could not agree with you more. I think
scrutinity and the same principles you
would apply to any other policy area
should be applied to the civil society
and NOS's. We owe that to our respective
democracies and we most certainly owe it
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