This content details the extraordinary story of Gary McKinnon, a hacker who breached sensitive US military and NASA systems, seeking evidence of UFOs and advanced technology. It also explores the implications of his findings and the subsequent legal battle he faced.
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There's a live arrest warrant out on you
now, right? You can't go to the US now.
>> I'm on the pole red list.
>> The biggest military computer hack in
all time.
>> We talked about the case of computer
hacker Gary McKinnon on which the prime
minister has expressed very clear views.
>> Well, on Mr. McKinnon, we have proceeded
through all the processes required under
our extradition agreements.
>> I was just a guy, normal guy interested
in UFOs. Happened to have some IT
skills. Nothing genius level. You hacked
into the army, the navy, the air force,
the department of defense, and NASA.
>> They wanted to put you in prison for 60
years. So >> 70
>> 70
>> for 70 years.
>> And I bought potassium chloride, and I
was just going to swallow it and have a
heart attack and die.
>> Oh my god.
>> Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious
crimes. The reason that you are here
today on this show is because what you found.
found.
>> He found, he says, photographic proof of
alien spacecraft and the names and ranks
of something he called nontterrestrial officers.
officers.
>> I was in my dressing gown up till like 4
in the morning, smoking weed, drinking
beer. Right of my life really.
The first one I looked at was the one
where I saw the picture and um so I
double clicked this
but it was very very slow. I was on a
56k dialup and uh I was just thinking my
god this is my eureka moment.
Then there's like slowly a hemisphere
started appearing and I'm thinking
that's a planet.
>> What the hell? And then suddenly there's
a big straight kind of silvery line,
cigar- shaped object.
I see the mouse move and someone else is
at the computer themselves. They right
clicked, disconnect, and boom, that was
it. I was cut out.
>> What do you think photographed it?
>> Very good question. This spreadsheet was
titled non-terrestrial officers, so not
on the Earth. And that was incredible. I
had one very strange experience that I
can't explain to this day. I was
suddenly woken up by a really sharp pain
that immediately I just went in my left
heel. There were two perfectly circular
holes. Wa weird.
weird.
>> Explain what's going on quickly.
>> I can't turn my phone off. You can see
my finger is on the power button and
both This is like a hard reset.
>> That's never happened before.
>> Absolutely. It's never happened before.
>> Ignition sequence start.
>> How is this possible?
>> Nothing too unusual about that.
Before we dive into the incredible story
of Gary McKinnon, I want to shine a
light on one thing his story reminds you
of instantly, online privacy. Gary is a
brilliant self-taught hacker who pulled
off what the Pentagon called the biggest
military computer hack of all time. All
from a bedroom in London. In this
interview, Gary goes into extreme detail
about what he found in some of the
world's most sensitive files. And I
still can't wrap my head around what
you're about to hear. After hearing what
he found, you might think he hit the
ultimate UFO disclosure jackpot.
However, the moment he went online, a
digital trail started forming. Think
about the moments most of us could get
exposed. It won't look like Gary's story
where he broke into sensitive government
systems, saw something truly
unbelievable floating in space, and then
had his access cut off midsession. For
most of us, our risk exposure is usually
much simpler, like joining hotel Wi-Fi,
airport Wi-Fi, or even your office
network. Going incognito doesn't hide
your browser from the Wi-Fi owner, and
your internet service provider can just
log what you do online. That's why I use ExpressVPN.
ExpressVPN.
It encrypts and reroutes my traffic
through secure servers and masks my IP.
I literally turn it on before doing
sensitive research for the show. Like
looking into whether mid-century
scientist Thomas Towns and Brown cracked
anti-gravity in the 1950s. That's
exactly when I want my browsing to stay
private. So, if you're like me and you
like going down crazy rabbit holes, make
sure your research isn't exposed on
whatever Wi-Fi you're on. Thanks to our
sponsor ExpressVPN, you can now get up
to four extra months of your ExpressVPN
service by clicking the link in the
description below at expressvpn.com/ameanalchemy.
to get the privacy you deserve. Thanks
again to ExpressVPN for sponsoring
today's historic episode. Because if
Gary's story teaches us anything, it's
that your online privacy matters.
Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy
tried to teleport a ship in what's now
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reappeared, and then half the crew got
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Quo, no missed calls, no missed
customers. Now, back to the show. This
is such an honor. I am here with uh he's
been at the top of my list of people
I've wanted to interview for years now,
and uh I'm so lucky to have this
opportunity through James Fox, the great
documentarian, uh Gary McKinnon.
>> Oh, thank you. I'm glad to be here. I
love your channel. Um I've been a
longtime subscriber, so yeah, I really
like a lot of the interviews you do, and
I'm I'm glad to be here, too. Let's
let's just go back to uh the early
2000s. Tell me the year and the day and
and and tell me about your life at the
time. And then I want to get into the
actual, you know, event.
>> Okay. Um I can't remember the day, but
the year was 2000, early 2000. And um my
life pre to that I'd always had a deep
interest in UFOs. Um mainly from my
stepdad. Um he used to live in Faluk
which is near Bonnybridge which is in
Scotland and it's like a Scottish UFO
hotspot. Had many many sightings almost
like a tourist attraction. You know
people go there to see UFOs
and uh I had one sighting myself uh when
I was about 12 and um I was looking out
of my bedroom window and I saw this kind
of reddish orange glowing light and it
was moving in an arc from there to the
horizon and it was um but it was like
brownie in motion. It wasn't a straight
line. It was like wiggling around and I
just thought, "What on earth is that?"
Um, and I was also a member of Buhora at
the time, the British UFO Research Association.
Association.
Yeah, I I was hooked from an early age.
And so, I guess it only made sense that
eventually I'd try and do something to
further my own interest and find out
more. Um, but unfortunately, it involved
in breaking the law. So, sorry, Mom.
So, so you already have an interest in
UFOs. Had you seen a UFO or like, you know,
know,
>> just that one sighting?
>> Just that one sighting. Okay.
>> But I had my stepdad's stories. He'd
seen them. Um his brother, my step uncle
had seen them.
>> Yeah. And and um and so you have this
personal interest. And then do do you
have like a hacking background or like
do you have any sort of like cyber
background? Are you really good with computers?
computers?
>> Um no hacking background. And I used it.
I was good with computers. I had a I
started off an Atari games console in
like 7879
and then eventually got the Atari
computer, learned to program in basic at
first and then machine code, assembler
language. Uh moved up from that and um
then eventually got jobs in computing,
very low-level jobs to start off with,
network installation, Windows configuration.
configuration.
um then did uh computer science degree
uh which I eventually failed because I
spent too much time in the student bar.
>> Um but yes so I eventually ended up
contracting but at banks quite high
level stuff but doing very basic sort of
networking stuff
>> so I had a good background in networking
especially Windows knew how they
communicated and some Linux stroke Unix
Solaris stuff like that.
So when
I mean the internet came to Britain in
95 I think I first had the internet and
uh the first thing I searched for was
UFOs and uh it was very popular loads of
websites loads of information
>> and um fast forward about five or six
years I read the disclosure project book
Steven Greer and his team
>> and they told you installations
locations and I thought I've got to have
a look at this. I wanted it from the
horse's mouth. I didn't want to just
believe. I wanted to know. And so I
thought I could use my basic networking
skills just to do a scan, you know, a
light scan on American military
networks, which which is mad now, but
but back then it was just kind of like a
playful idea.
And um I wrote a Pearl script. Pearl is
a program extraction reporting language,
just a scripting language. And that I
could run that across thousands of
machines in minutes and find a blank
passwords or passwords that were either
blank or password admin a basic list.
And um when you do like widescale
fishing like that, you do you know some
fish bite. And that was my basic method
to getting entrance to these places.
>> And so some of these extremely sensitive
American military sites had blank passwords
passwords
>> big time. That's crazy. I mean,
>> it although that seems beyond belief, it
also makes sense. Like the the
government's way more incompetent than
often, especially people in UFO world
give them credit for it because we
assume they have workable reverse
engineered crafts that they know how to
use at will or what. So like what you of
course would have password set up, but
two 2000 is early internet. we were
still worried about Y2K, you know, so
like we didn't really understand how a
lot of this stuff worked. It was this
big experiment and so Wow. So that that
sort of fishing thing came up with some
some fish. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh
>> and as you say, the government really
isn't tailored for this, especially the
military. Um they don't well they didn't
then employ specialized IT workers. They
trained up existing military employees
in the you know basic techniques to run
a network. There weren't advanced
security aware guys running government
networks or military networks.
>> And are you So while you're doing this,
are you just like sitting in a apartment
or something?
>> It's a bit embarrassing. Um my
girlfriend and I at the time we were
living in her auntie's house on the
ground floor and um I was in my dressing
gown up till like 4 in the morning
smoking weed, drinking beer, just like
ride of my life really for you know
youngish guy. I think I was 36 at the
time. So yeah
>> I uh you know I don't think that's um
embarrassing for you. I think it's
embarrassing for the the sites you
hacked into. Um, okay. So, you're
you're uh you're getting a little late
night buzz and you're you know, you're
at your your your girlfriend's aunt's
house and you're just like, I want to
find I want to know for myself what's
going on in UFO World. You do this blank
password search. You actually come up
with some results as far as sites that
you can get into. Yeah.
>> What do you look at first?
>> Uh, well, the first thing I had to do
was test my method.
>> Mhm. So I did that on British sites and
we're currently in Cambridge, home of
the famous university. Um I had
Cambridge's FTP server, file transfer
protocol server and um Oxford as well
and a couple of poly techchnics at the
time which are now universities. And um
I realized the technique worked. If you
if you cast far enough a wide net, you
know, something's going to come in. And
um then I thought, okay, let's go for
the um the locations. And my list of
locations all came from the Disclosure
Project book.
>> And also there was a I forget the title
of it. There was like a hackers network
document going around of a list of
potential UFO secrecy sites.
>> And I took some of the um names from
there, but all that told you was the
network names
or the particular department of defense
like sub department that that owned that
network. Um, so I used a site at the
time which was called Nihei's IP index.
And this guy had done some work. He'd
used like domain search tools and built
a huge list of who owns what subnets. So
I could just grab a block, plug it into
my script, and scan like a quarter of a
million computers in 8 minutes.
Typically 5% would respond. And then
from that 5%, a further 5% would have
blank passwords.
>> Okay. Okay. You got it. So you do this
like narrowing process and you end up
with what is it like 97 sites that you
can get into or something like that.
>> Yeah, that was the end result
>> which is a lot of sites.
>> And what do the sites include as far as
acronyms that people would be familiar
with or program names people would be
familiar with.
>> Okay. The NSA I got into Fort ME
>> DA Defense Information Systems Agency,
DoD Networks, Basic Army Networks, Navy
Networks, Yousef, US Air Force Networks.
>> Okay. Wow. So yeah, those are some
pretty intense organizations that uh at
the very least we know hold the keys to,
you know, all sorts of, you know,
military technology secrets that confer
tactical advantage to the US, if not
some of these deeper, you know, more
interesting mysteries that, you know,
you and I uh uh share an interest in. So
what do you do next as far as your
search and what do you find?
>> Yeah. Okay. So I'm one guy. I've got
potentially thousands of IPs to search
the individual computers. Um, and once
you find a blank password, and these are
Windows networks, um, you need to
become, uh, the administrator, which is
like, you know, the highest local account.
account.
Um, and eventually the domain
administrator, which controls the entire network.
network.
Um, so once I was on one PC or a
network, I then attack the domain server
and get that password. And that's
through dictionary attacks, password
cracking. Um I actually used a tool
called Loft Crack. I don't know if
that's still around. And um once I'd
done that, it's a huge job for one
person. Huge job. So I found a program
called Land Search. This is all
commercially offtheshelf available
software. And what lens search enabled
me to do was to type in a search term
and it would search every file and
folder on all the local PCs that I had
control of which could be I think the
largest I did was 5,000 at one time
which took hours you know light. Um so
yeah that's how I that was my system for
making it doable for one person and also
it depends on your search terms.
>> These files aren't going to be called
UFO secrets. M
>> um so I had to look for things like you
know secret top secret um just anything
just to and PDF PDF documents were
particularly helpful. A lot of stuff was
in PDF back back then and uh the
redacting they did on PDFs back then was
not fully redacted. You could unredact
it once you downloaded the file to your
own PC. So, it was a huge networkwide
document search and just grabbing what I
could, spending hours getting it, and
then spending hours reading it and
trolling through it.
>> Are you When you're spending hours
reading it, is this like you backed this
stuff up on a hard drive or is it just
on your PC?
>> Yeah. Downloaded to my PC.
>> Okay. So, it's just on your PC. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Wow. And so, so you're going through all
this stuff. Were there any other things
you saw that were interesting outside
of, you know, we'll get to the the crazy
kind of UFO related stuff that you
found? Was there anything else that you
that you saw while while searching
through these documents?
>> I was looking for free energy as well. I
never found anything to do with that. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> One thing I have to say, I never found
anything to do with Solar Warden. Solar
Warden is a huge rumor that was started
by an anonymous poster on the above top
secret forum. So there's no evidence for
Solar Warden and I have nothing to do
with it. Never heard of it apart from
you know rumors pertaining to myself.
>> Yeah. For the audience solar warden is
has become associated with these sort of
secret space program Gaia you know
people like Corey good you know that say
that we have like a terrestrial you know
we have like humans like in in like deep
space right now and they engage in these
like 20 years and back missions or
whatever. And there's like a documentary
on it and it's like the it's the worst
documentary I think I've ever seen.
>> I bet it is.
>> You believe in a secret space program,
but I don't believe Cory. Good.
>> Yeah. Well, that's the thing. It's like
Pizzagate and Epstein. It's you. The
best way to debunk the truth or to
pre-immunize the population from ever
actually looking into the truth is to uh
uh kind of you know inoculate them, send
out stuff that is directly adjacent to
the truth and then ensure that that gets
debunked because it's so primmaaccia ridiculous.
ridiculous.
>> Yeah. Standard intel technique.
>> Yeah. So I Yeah. So the fact that
there's some sort of Yeah. Standard
intel techniques. So, the fact that um
you know uh a blog an anonymous blog
post and then you have all these people
kind of flooding the zone with secret
space program stuff makes me think that
there might actually be something next
to that that might be that might be true
that dovetales with what you did find.
Anything else that you found that was
interesting before the the crazy stuff?
>> Um nothing to do with ET or anything
like that, but it's very interesting
what um on one site I found the jailer's
file. Every military base has a jailer. M.
M.
>> And it's just crazy. You've got guys
taking LSD that work on submarines. >> Really?
>> Really?
>> So, lots of interesting human stories,
you know,
>> where they're taking LSD that work on submarines.
submarines.
>> Yeah. I mean, well, yeah, cuz the
they're soldiers basically.
>> Oh, I'm so I'm tripping now. And like,
you know, they're dealing drugs like
they've got Hell's Angels gangs bringing
in the drugs. And so, that was
interesting for human story. It's
nothing to do with what we're here to
discuss today, but it's entertaining.
>> Okay. That's fascinating. I thought I
thought for a second you were talking
about like MK Ultra mind control like
taking LSD at the bottom of submarines
and testing consciousness or Okay. So
just you know recreational spice it up
down there. >> Interesting.
>> Interesting.
>> Make the 9 to5 less boring.
>> Yeah. And so you're systematically
you're looking for UFOs, you're looking
for free energy. Any other like you know
kind of terms that are on your mind in
going into this search?
>> No, that was my main focus. And um with
UFOs, it was particularly the
propulsion. What I was interested in was
the energy and the propulsion. Aliens
didn't excite me so much because I'm
sure they exist because it's a huge
universe. But I wanted something that
could um that we could use, you know, as
people and I was convinced that it was
secret technology, but they knew
something about that the populace at
large wasn't allowed to have access to.
>> Yeah. Well, I think you were you were on
to something maybe. But uh
>> in Britain at the time, we had old age
pensioners couldn't pay their fuel bills
and energy was a really sad story for a
lot of people. So to have something that
was free. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And yeah, it was just too juicy not to
have a go at finding
>> Yeah. I mean, it would be hugely
disruptive to establishment
institutions. You know, if if you know
our energy prices dropped from, you
know, 50 bucks per kilowatt hour to like
50 cents per kilowatt hour, that would
be hugely disruptive. It just would. I
think um it's a control mechanism isn't
it as well just like water is starting
to be food has been for a while.
>> Yeah. Anything that's scarce and can be
acred at the top I think is totally a
control mechanism and
>> anybody who doesn't think that you know
um having access to a critical threshold
of oil has not determined American
foreign policy over the last 70 years is
nuts. Like I mean you see it with Maduro
in Venezuela and then you know worries
about what's going on in Iran visav that
you know and so and like it's it's all
you know very very you know obviously
interconnected. I mean Desert Storm in
the early 90s was basically pulled off
because Saddam Hussein in overtaking
Kuwait controlled a fifth of the world's
oil supply and that was just unacceptable.
unacceptable.
>> Yeah. And one thing about Venezuela is
it wasn't just um America's domestic
supply. It was what foreign powers could
get. China was about to do a deal with Venezuela.
Venezuela.
>> That's right. I think it would only
amount to like 1 or 2% of China's
imports, but it's still something.
>> Yeah. Still something. They're sitting
on a lot of oil there. And you see this
like these crazy sort of game theory
dynamics visa v China taking place with
Greenland and other places. So it's it
all cuts to these. And if you look at
like why the US had to back down off
this recent, you know, trade agreement
deal with with China and kind of concede
some some things, it was due to rare
earth refinement being basically a
monopoly uh in China. And so, you know,
these things are like very real things
geopolitically. And so if I I I agree
with you. I think it's very interesting
if there's any sort of novel exotic
physics that's stuck in a compartment in
the government. You know, I' I'd like to
know as well. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
And I even think there probably
interesting ways to use it
geopolitically. Like if you if you have
it where it's like it's some sort of
carrot for like okay maybe you don't
give it to like you know gross dictators
or whatever but it's like a way to like
incentivize reform or I don't know but
like just keeping it to yourself that
seems wrong maybe.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But you're right. It's a
real hard line to walk isn't it? How do
you have that public for you but not
public for other countries because you
have spies and
>> totally and there there are dual use
implications for a lot of things. So
like a good example would be you know uh
controlled fusion or whatever would you
know is is the really positive you know
use of of nuclear fusion which would
allow for you know sort of free energy
if you have over unity. Um, but then you know
know
fusion also creates the hydrogen bomb,
right? And so so like you never know
like if you had some free energy device
that you were putting in a compartment
or something if that also allowed a kid
in his bedroom to blow up the world like
you do have to like do some
calculations. There's this guy Ashton
Forbes online who I don't know if you're
familiar with him on the airplane
>> talks about yeah MH370 the like these
like orbs wrapping around the plane and
then it zaps it and he's like sure that
there's like free energy like you know
being held by
>> me the most fascinating thing about that
was where's the provenence for that video?
video?
>> It's never been shown.
>> It's never been Yeah. We don't know.
Yeah. Yeah. But um Okay. So what do what
do you find next? So, um, there was a a
special witness for Steven Greer's
disclosure project called Donna Hair,
and she said that when she worked, she
was pretty hard. She was a a NAZA launch
photographic specialist. I think she had
secret clearance. Um, cuz she'd get, you
know, very close-up photos of all the
mechanics and engineering and stuff for
launches and the launch platform, under
the launch platform.
and she said that she worked in uh
building 8 of Johnson Space Center JSC
and that her colleague who worked across
the corridor and this is all something
he shouldn't have done um cuz they
chatted you know had lunch together or
whatever and he one day he just beckoned
her across the corridor and said come
and take a look at this and this is the
days of analog photography
and so he's got um you know big like
contact sheets and slides and they used
to be developed under red light and
silver nitrate. And he said, "What do
you think this is?" And there was a huge
white disc on this satellite photo of
the Earth.
And she being a photographic expert
herself said, "Oh, it's just a blob of
the emulsion, you know, the old cavical
of the the sheets."
>> And then he's grinning and he says, "Uh,
dots on the emulsion don't leave round
shadows on the ground." And there was a
round shadow at the right angle, at the
correct angle, the sun shining on the
trees. I saw pine trees. I didn't see a
coastline. I don't know where this was,
but um I looked at him and I was pretty
startled because I'd worked out there
several years and never seen anything
like this. Never heard of anything like
this. And uh I said, "Is this a UFO?"
And he's smiling at me and he says, "I
can't tell you that." So I said, 'What
are you going to do with this
information? And he said, 'Well, we
always have to airbrush them out before
we sell them to the public.
>> Because they sell on the imagery to like
colleges, universities, you know, Earth
shots and magnificent
scenes from space. Um, so yeah, his job
was to blot this stuff out and make sure
it wouldn't get seen. And they didn't
have Photoshop then, so I'm not sure. I
think you know the airbrush term
literally comes from a physical airbrush
on the emulsion where they just blur
things and uh you see lots of examples
on this of like lunar photography from
Clementine mission the lunar orbiter the
LRO lunar recordings orbiter
um so I read this story absolutely
fascinated you here was this highly
qualified woman she'd worked for a long
time NASA and I think the air force
previously to that and um and did she
say disc she said flying saucer. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> She then and she says so that shape, the
circular shape.
>> Yeah. And the shadow.
>> Okay. Wow.
>> And um I was already in J Johnson Space
Center at the time.
>> So I thought building 8. Okay. I wonder
if that's still running cuz she worked
there and I think the late ' 80s or the
early 90s.
>> So you're in the Johnson Space Center
files on your PC. You're going
>> I was already there when I read this. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. So I thought I've got to have a
look. I've got to have a look. And I
thought, how the hell do I find building
8? But luckily, Windows has um you can
do network commands in a console rather
than a GUI with a mouse. And you can
type it like net stat, network status,
tells you all the people connected to
the machine. And there's other commands whereby
whereby
NAZA are great auditors of their system.
So they have these special commands for
auditing where you see the machine, the
PC, the number, the serial number, the
date when it was last maintained, all
stuff like that, and the building it's
in. So I ran those commands that
produced a list and I stripped out I
think it was about 1,500 machines or
maybe 150 machines. But um once I
stripped out the building eight
machines, uh there was only like a dozen
maybe. And uh I ran the blank password
script on them and I think about half of
them were accessible.
And the first one I looked at was the
one where I saw the picture and it was
strange. It was um I did a lot of
network support before that as well. And
most users desktops are covered in
stuff, short cards, emails, like
electronic post-it notes. And uh these
were very bare desktops. All they had
was like two folders, raw and process.
and maybe a couple of other shortcuts. Um,
Um,
and so I thought, I've got to look at
this. It's got to be images. It's where
she said it was. It looks like images.
It says RAW. It says processed.
And, uh, I double clicked into the
folders. And it's a proprietary NAZA
image format that I can't run on my
desk. Not a JPEG, not a PNG.
Um, so what I had to do was basically
there was a what was it called? There
was uh
there was I I basically had to run Naza
software. I had to double click it on
the desktop cuz my hacking method
although I'd get in there with a blank
password which was CLI command line. Um
once I was in there I was using remotely
anywhere. I think it still exists. It's
like PC anywhere. It's like you're
sitting at the desktop. You can see the
screen on your screen. And um so I
double clicked this but it was very very
slow. I was on a 56k dialup which was um
to give some idea of the speed it was if
you download an MP3 music file now
you've got it in a few seconds then it
was 5 minutes per megabyte
>> and a song might be 3 megabytes and 15
minutes for one song and no one would
even accept that now
>> so I double clicked this it was taking
ages so I canceled it I turned down my
remote graphical remote control thing
into like 8 bit color then four bit
color eventually I think yeah I think
four bit color or two bit color it was
basically four or five different colors
so it was a shitty image
>> and um but it came on the screen like
you know almost line by line I think a
few lines at a time so it's coming in
blocks and I'm looking and there's like
blackness then there's like slowly a
hemisphere started appearing I'm
thinking that's a planet what the
hell this could be what she said then
the hemisphere comes into view and it's
very blocky
But it's kind of blue and white. So I'm
thinking it must be Earth. And then
suddenly there's a big straight kind of
silvery line and then it's coming down.
Then that's I guess what they now call a
tic tac but what we used to call cigar- shaped
shaped
>> object. And this thing was admittedly
it's low resolution. It's coming down
slowly. But this thing looked very kind
of smooth
>> on the outside. There was no lines
whether we'd be like plates fixed or
screws and bolts and stuff and uh I was
just thinking my god this is my Eureka
moment confirmed Donah's story not that
Don hair story needs confirming
um yeah and it got to I got the whole
ship you know in view and then it
started to go below that where I would
see the rest of the the um the sphere of
the earth I assume it was the earth and
um it was just amazing the only man-made
possibly man-made thing that was there
was like geodisic domes like radar
stations uh one on top below on both
sides and I thought well that's strange
it's kind of man-made looking but not
man-made looking and then
I've got graphical remote control I see
the mouse move someone else the person
someone else is at the computer
themselves and they're moving the mouse
they right clicked on the local area
network icon you know right next to your
clock on the bottom right of your
Windows taskbar disconnect act and boom,
that was it. Come. I was cut out and I'm
sitting there like waiting.
>> Oh my god.
>> Baited breath for my Eureka moment. Come
on. Come on. Come on.
>> Oh my god. Anything else on the cigar?
So smooth. No, it doesn't seem like
rivets or seams. It's hovering above the
earth. Do you notice anything else?
>> No. Just like a very smooth cylinder.
The geodic domes. And
And
>> so the little dome dome on top, dome on bottom.
bottom.
>> Yeah. And either end. Yeah.
>> And on either end.
>> Well, that could just be the kind of cigar
cigar >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> tube like the closure of the cylinder.
>> Sure. Sure. Sure. I suppose. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> That is fascinating. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So interesting. And did you ever speak
with, you know, yourself or through
intermediaries with Donna Hair?
>> Oh yeah.
>> And did she say that's the disc that I
saw? And I just because I think of disc
with her and then cigar tic tac with you.
you.
>> Yeah. She saw that one photo I disc, but
she also spoke to um
>> Okay, so these are probably different
images. You're just confirming that the
same building probably has a whole lot
of images that they're sitting on.
>> Yeah. Even though it might be 10 or 20
years later, apparently this is still
the place where there's images of, you
know, UFOs or exotic craft and they're
being airbrushed out. It is proof that
at least I mean it's really interesting
that you have a whistleblower come out
with nobody has any evidence for her
claims at this point and she says you
know this is where we process the
images. I was shown this image building
8 Johnson Space Center. you
independently, you know, halfway across
the world, hack into Johnson Space
Center, look at building 8, and then one
of the first things that pops up on your
screen is an image of a UFO hovering
above the Earth, which is clearly not
the exact same UFO, but it's, you know,
>> it's definitely exotic. It's nothing,
you know, it wasn't a rocket. It wasn't
ISS. It wasn't like a space lab or
>> Well, it doesn't sound like a satellite
to me, a cigar like rotating around.
>> There's no antenna either. There's
nothing. No like telemetry or sensor
looking stuff. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> That is wild. And I mean and then also
now we have the uh lucky hindsight, you
know, in in in 2026 of Commander David
Fraver's experience of 2004, just a few
years later uh off the coast of San
Diego where he sees a tic-tac object and
they have, you know, apparently radar.
We've seen the fleer imaging, the
thermal imaging of this thing. It's for
everyone to see. The Pentagon has
verified that that's real.
>> All four of us, cuz we were in F-18F, so
we had pilots and Wizo in the back seat,
looked down a small saw white tic tac
object with a longitudinal axis pointing
north south and moving very abruptly
over the water like a ping pong ball. It
rapidly accelerated in front of us and
disappeared. Our wingmen roughly 8,000
ft above us lost contact also.
>> And then you have a lot of other
witnesses. You have his co-pilot. You
have another plane and two pilots in
that plane. You have, you know, a whole
lot. You have the obviously radar
>> some guys on the ship. Exactly.
>> So, are you the first like other I mean
there I think I believe there's some
other tic tac and cigar like there's you
know I think flying there there are air
force documents from the late 40s um
that describe uh flying butane tanks. I
don't know if you know about this.
>> I haven't heard it like that.
>> David Grush, famous UFO whistleblower
has talked about this. And then in
Robert Hastings great book UFOs and
nukes which talks about UFOs showing up
at nuclear installations all over the
world including in the UK actually at
Rendlessham Forest in 1980 really famous
case. Uh he talks about um tic tacs or
cigar- shaped objects often being sort
of like a mother ship and saucers flying
out of the the tic tacs.
>> Yeah, I think that was it Maelstrom AFB
in America as well. similar thing
happened. Yeah, like definitely a mother
ship kind of configuration.
>> Yeah. No, a ton has happened at
Malmstrom actually. So, it's definitely
likely that in certain cases some sort
of tic because a tic tac or cigar is one
of the most common descriptions people
have. There's a case we were just
talking earlier, you know, uh thank you
James Fox, great documentarian for the
intro to Gary,
>> great guy. And we were saying that he
sort of singlehandedly resuscitated this
obscure Brazilian UFO crash in 1996, the
Virginia case. And there's a guy Carlos
Dza who's a ultra light pilot geography
teacher who literally saw the crash and
he felt the material just like in
Roswell with Jesse Marcel. He feels the
material and it's it feels like uh you
know memory metal. I could see quite a
few pieces of debris on the ground and I
picked them up and it was kind of curved
and then I was surprised to see how
light it was. So I said I'll keep it and
so I crunched it up and so I made this
kind of movement you know to put it in
my pocket
and what happened was this foil or this
sheet regained its shape.
So I thought
what is this?
I was completely floored.
>> Yeah. It sprung back into its original
shape. And guess what the shape of the
craft was that he saw that crash?
>> Right. So
>> cigar tic tac. Yeah. So
>> yeah, lots of synchronicities there.
>> What was your first instinct when you
saw it? How how did you feel and what
did you think? You know, often I think
like if you're taking like a multiple
choice test, it's like your first
instinct's often right, you know, and
then you second guess yourself. So, do
did you have like a an on the spot interpretation?
interpretation?
>> I'm not an aeronautics expert or a space
vehicle expert, but to me, you know, I I
watched space stuff with interest since
I was a kid, and it wasn't your normal
space stuff, so I knew that. Um, but
there wasn't, you know, I didn't know if
it was extraterrestrial. Yeah, I still
don't obviously, you know, it could be
something man-made, but it was
definitely something secret
>> because it was nothing like like we
already have up there. Dan, did did you
uh have any sort of like instinct of I
mean the obvious question is like is it
ours or is it theirs?
>> Yeah, you know a big distinction. Well,
I think because of Donair's story, my
instinct was that yeah, it was alien
because that's what she described. She
described unknown things in high-res
NASA satellite imagery that they had to
airbrush out because I don't know, maybe
they thought it would panic the public
or they had no explanation for it. And
what did she say as far as why they
airbrushed it out and didn't just admit,
you know, yeah, we're surrounded by
these cool exotic objects?
>> Yeah, we shared a few emails. She's
passed now, unfortunately. God bless her soul.
soul.
>> Um, and we had one, I think it was like
2 and 1 half hour, 3 hour phone conversation.
conversation.
And, um,
she thinks like just like a lot of us do
that a lot has been hidden. Uh, it's
being hidden for reasons of control.
Um, but it's weird when you try and
extrapolate from this, you think, well,
wouldn't you use technology like that in
a war if you had that? Would you use it
openly to your own advantage or so? To
me, that tells me that it's still
unknown even to the people with the
highest authority on that subject.
>> I think that's right. if it's not well
known and it's flying with impunity over
our nuclear sites. Yeah. And in
sensitive airspace and in space next to,
you know, our recon satellites and stuff.
stuff. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You would be extremely embarrassed to
you wouldn't be able to admit, you know,
you know, but if but if you did know
what was going on, you would just tell
the public, yeah, we not only do we know
what's going on, but then you try to
signal that you know what's going on and
you've like reverse engineered it
because you'd want to, you know, kind of
soften, you know, the enemy sort of
thing. And so I actually think some of
modern disclosure might be, you know,
intel tactics to try to like say that we
know more than we do, but also recruit
on the topic because like actually they
don't really know what's going on, you know?
know?
>> I think you're absolutely right.
Embarrassment is a huge factor. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um even just my my hacking was an
embarrassment. So if they're embarrassed
by something like that, can you imagine?
Yeah. I mean, it's just indeterminable.
It's hugely different.
Um and also fear because I mean why you
know are they here? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> What are they doing? Why are the
interest in nuclear missiles? Is it for
protection of us? Is it that we
destabilize some kind of
interdimensional thing or >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You know we're with atoms.
>> Did you get the sense Yeah. Right. We
are we're doing a lot genetics atoms bow
warfare. So,
>> so you when you saw this thing, did you
get the sense that it was moving in a
predictable orbit? I mean, it's it's a
static image, so you have no way of
knowing, but did you get the sense that
it was like moving in a in an orbit or
that it was like just kind of
maneuvering around or Well, I've seen
photos of Leo low Earth orbit stuff. Um,
and this looked to be maybe I mean, I
have no idea of the scale of this thing.
Um, but with the hemisphere,
it was way beyond low Earth orbit. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> But I don't know. I mean,
>> you know, there's a actually a Wikileaks
uh email with John Podesta on it that's
been deleted from the internet, but
still, if you go on the way back
machine, I think I think there's some
like Reddit forums that discuss this.
Definitely a real email. and he is
talking with uh kind of a contractor
from some aerospace corporation I think
in California and he mentions the the
the contractor I think the guy's name is
Bob Fish said they're having lunch
together and this is him recalling it in
the email and Fish says uh yeah we
spotted some uh fast walkers today
>> and um they were I think this was in
specific reference to the DSP the uh
defense support program which I think is
this very deep geostationary
kind of recon thing that the Air Force
does. This was the Air Force at the time
because now Space Force would do it, you
know, post 2019. But >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> I wonder if you saw a fast walker
because also if you um uh uh uh try to
foyer fast walkers, which John Greenwald
did, uh the space force gets back and
says, "We, you know, clearly there are
some records, but we can't we can't talk
about them." Yeah.
>> Yeah. Wasn't there a CIA foyer to do
with fast walkers as well?
>> Maybe. Maybe. Yeah, it might be the CIA.
Actually, it might not even be
Spaceport. I might be getting that
wrong, but yeah. Interesting. So, but I
guess one question would be like was it
lateral to the earth? Like was it
moving? Yeah. Lateral to the earth
because I think it wouldn't make sense
to me if it was like vertical to the
earth. Like if the if the butt was
facing the earth, I'd be like that
doesn't feel like an orbit like it's in
a predictable orbit. You know what I mean?
mean?
>> Yeah, it was definitely
>> it was lateral
>> 90 to the earth.
>> It was at 90.
>> Yeah. So that Yeah, it's it's horizontal.
horizontal.
>> Horizontal. I wasn't seeing it end on.
So, you're right. It was in a position
to be rotating around
>> possibly in orbit.
>> Just traveling past
>> or just traveling past. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Or Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, it
wouldn't be It wasn't like going
directly at the Earth. It was like
moving laterally somewhat. Okay.
>> So, interesting.
Any other detail? I guess you could you
don't you don't know color, right?
Because it's silvery white. I mean, it
was very I was in like I think two bit color.
color.
>> Okay. but or maybe for a bit but yeah it
was very kind of blocky and but it was
definitely white silvery white
>> and did you see any sort of I guess I
don't know how you'd see a shadow but
like did you see any sort of
>> I don't know cuz this is you know
>> so far out from Earth
>> interesting what do you think
photographed it
>> very good question yeah so this takes me
to um I reference the disclosure project
a cuz that was the root of a lot of my
locations and research at the time.
>> And um one of their witnesses, I forget
his name, he was DIA
and he got a lot of the information to
do with the satellites and he he he was
the one that said most of these
satellites are actually pointed outwards
and they're not like low Earth orbit
communication satellites. So I assume if
you've got very far out satellites
looking outwards, you can also rotate
them. Yeah. and look inwards. So that's
the only thing I could think of.
>> Okay. So that is fascinating. You see
that? How are you feeling when you see that?
that?
>> Oh man, I was ready to inform the press,
tell the world, oh my god, like it's
true and NZA knows and NZA has known for
ages and Donair was right. And but then
boom, disconnected
>> as it's loading. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So it hasn't even fully loaded.
>> Like two I saw like just under the
bottom half of the ship. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And um Yeah. then disconnect.
>> And you have no reason to lie about
this. You've never made any money off of
this, right? And if anything, you were
kind of put put on a witch trial. Like
there's sort of this witch hunt for like
20 years where this like, you know,
blanket extradition was attempted to be
applied to you where uh they wanted to
put you in prison for 60 years. So >> 70
>> 70
>> for 70 years.
>> Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious
crimes. On his visit to the White House,
David Cameron spoke to President Obama
about the case and both agreed they
could find an appropriate solution.
>> We talked about the case of computer
hacker Gary McKinnon on which the prime
minister has expressed very clear views.
You said you would work together to find
a solution. So, have you found one?
>> Well, on Mr. McKinnon. Uh we have
proceeded through all the uh
the processes
required under our extradition
agreements. Uh it is now in the hands of
the British legal system. Uh we have
confidence uh in uh the British legal
system coming to a a just conclusion. Uh
and so we await resolution and uh we'll
be respectful of that process. Well, we
had talks and they said, "Look, if you
just come along, don't fight it. You do
between age and 20." Like, that's a good
deal. Like, no, thank you. I'll fight
it. Um, and yeah, and that was actually
horrible. It was very depressing. Um, I
found out my own government because
governments are made up of individuals
and individuals have ties to other
individuals in the DOJ and the CPS, some
of them wanted me gone too,
>> just as a favor to the US, not because
of anything to do with right or wrong or
truth or justice, just as a favor.
Political porn.
>> Um, so that was awful. But not just for
me, my family, you know, your mom and
dad. And it's like,
>> weren't there some allegations of a
meeting that was had at the American
embassy out here where it was like we
want his head or something? Like it was
very extreme language used.
>> Yeah. Ed Gibson, who was a tache to the
US embassy in London at the time, met
with my lawyer
>> and he said, "We want to see him fry."
Electric chair reference.
>> Jesus Christ.
>> When she told me that, Karen, amazing
lawyer, stuck with us all through this
and fought and fought and fought. Yeah.
I was just I mean we already knew they
played dirt cuz I mean people have to
realize you know politics isn't about
>> people being safe and well looked after.
It's about the state
>> the furtherance of the state and its
objectives and the protectors the
protection of your state to foreign
states. So
>> yeah, no, that is definitely the the lay
of the land as is national security. And
uh you know, I just find it I find it
interesting that okay, you have guys
like Snowden and Assange wherever
you lie with them, which like whether
you think they're courageous and
ideological in in a way that really, you
know, exposed all sorts of, you know, uh
uh issues with the intel world and mass
surveillance and stuff. um or whether
you think they put like you know
Americans abroad in danger or whatever
which I I think there are like there is
some nuance there like I do think some
people in the intel world who talk about
this say well there there's some real
like bad effects around around this
>> but in Assange's defense he had lots of
phone calls before releasing that
information so he actually agreed it
with people in the state department
>> I didn't know that that's yeah well
there you go yeah but but but I was just
getting to the point of whatever you
think of those cases like Maybe there's
some, you know, like uh more gray area
or debate to be had or whatever. In your
case, you're just you're smoking weed in
your girlfriend's aunt's little flat
and it's like 4:00 a.m. and you're just
like a dude who's interested in UFOs
since you were a child and you want to
figure it out.
>> And so I it's just like to me if it's
the US like get your together. That
should be your you should be, you know,
it's almost like they might have uh
>> lashed out so much at you because they
were embarrassed. I mean that you
literally like it's it's on you. It's
not on this like poor English citizen
who has no clear like I don't I don't
think you're like particularly
ideologically set in like destroying
America, you know?
>> I've been there. I love that. Chicago.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, well,
we we'll get to that kind of more meta
conversation, but you also found some
other pretty crazy things uh while you
were while you were searching in your
girlfriend's aunt's flat. And so yeah,
what else did you what else did you find
besides this tic tac?
>> I think um I was on a Navy system at the
time. I can't remember. Cloud of weed,
etc., But um there was a spreadsheet,
Excel spreadsheet, and it was called cuz
I was saying earlier about my search
terms. It was UFOs, ET, terrestrial,
anything, spacecraft, anything I could
think of, which probably wouldn't be in
the in the title of the document. But um
this spreadsheet was titled
non-terrestrial officers, so not on the
Earth, which isn't necessarily alien. It
could just mean space-based marines or,
you know, secret space force. Um, and
that was incredible. It had ship names.
It had um material, the material, the
military spelling, not material.
Um, and it was transfers of weird
chemicals like malibdenum and other
weird things that are hard to pronounce.
Uh, shipto- ship transfers and fleetto
fleet transfers. And at the time, I
looked up the ship names thinking US
Navy must be Bones. Nothing. Absolutely
nothing. What do you remember the names
of the people?
>> No, I remember I don't remember any of
the names of the people, but the there
were long lists, you know. I think it
was just initial surname. I don't think
there were first names. Um, and the ship
names I was expecting like USS Lincoln
or, you know, Navy ships, but there was
none of that. Everything I And it wasn't
Google at the time. I I think it was Alt
Vista, the biggest search engine at the time.
time.
>> Um, and none of it was seagoing vessels.
So you see a list of non-terrestrial
officers and then you also see chemicals
being what are the names of these chemicals?
chemicals?
>> Yeah. Uh
um barium something was in there.
>> They were very exotic. >> So
>> So
what does that imply?
>> Do you remember the exact So what what
is malibd? Have you looked up what the
uses are of this? Like
>> yeah I remember malibdum I can't say it
now. Malibdinum. Um
Um
they're very exotic. They're used in
like uh magnetics. Um
Um
lots of very kind of exotic industrial
processes. A lot a lot to do with metal
hardening if I remember right like metallergy.
metallergy.
>> Um like you make an alloy and it makes
it stronger than the original two components.
components.
So again that time now years later with
the research you've done the people
you've interviewed it's all making more
sense especially when when we come to
the bofield brown stuff and dialectrics and
and
>> yeah we'll get to that
>> and like nano deposition of thin layer materials.
materials.
>> Yes. Yeah. Thinly layered thinner than a
you know a human hair or whatever. Micron
Micron
>> layered. This one sample is engineered
in layers thinner than microns through a
process unknown on Earth and for a
purpose we can only guess. Multi-layered
bismouth and magnesium sample. Bismouth
layers less than a human hair supposedly
picked up in the crash retrieval of an
advanced aerospace vehicle. Nowhere
could we find any evidence that anybody
ever made one of these.
>> Okay, this is fascinating though. So,
you see a list of how many
non-aterrestrial officers?
>> Oh, man. Um,
so my screen at the time was the old
like 800 by 600 monitors. I think I
might have had 1024 by 768 resolution at
the time. So, your typical Excel
spreadsheet without zooming in when you
just load it up was probably 24 lines
and I think there was about one and a
half or two pages. So, maybe like 30 40
names. You don't remember any of the
last names? >> No.
>> No. >> Sorry.
>> Sorry.
>> You're killing me.
>> You're not kidding, man.
>> You got to give us a little breadcrumb.
>> Yeah. Yeah. This is one of the main like
criticisms of me. Why didn't you take a
bloody screenshot? Just alt print
screen. Alt print. But I did actually I
downloaded that Excel spreadsheet.
>> And when I got arrested,
>> all my data was taken to OI, Office of
Naval Intelligence.
>> So they still have my hard drives. I've
tried to get them back for years and
they said, "No, it's still an ongoing
investigation. You can't touch it."
>> Office of Naval Intelligence is the
oldest intelligence agency in the US. I
think it's 1882.
>> And it's often deeply implicated in UFOs.
UFOs. >> 1882.
>> 1882.
>> 1882. So, the National Security Act,
which created the CIA uh was 1947.
And um you know, and then you had the
OSS before that, which was kind of this
wartime foreign intelligence effort.
Yeah. But, you know, Office of Naval
Intelligence well predates all of that.
And you had Thomas Towns and Brown doing
a lot of spooky science work for the Navy.
Navy.
>> And uh Yeah. And then you have this guy
Harold Malmrren who kind of ended up
giving me kind of a turned into kind of
a deathbed confession at the end of his
life. And it uh was wild. I mean, he was
like, "The Office of Naval Intelligence
knows the most about this issue. And
once you go in that door, the door shuts
and you can't get let out.
>> But he said one thing, naval intelligence
intelligence
are going to be around asking you
questions about your study.
They really get curious and if they talk
to you for any length of time, they'll
say, "Holy you really know a lot."
They're going to offer you special access.
access.
It's how they operate. I said, "What
does that mean? You'll open the doors,
you'll have full entry, the doors will
shut, and you'll be no exit the rest of
your life.
>> That is a closed system.
>> And he kind of implied that they
approached him in certain cases and
because of the fact that it was this
closed system, he didn't want to engage. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> So, very interesting. So, so they end up
with your stuff. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> Yeah. They were um when the British
police at the time it was the NHTCU,
National High-tech Crime Unit in the UK.
Um at first they said to me, "Oh, you
get 6 months. It's the Computer Mischief
Act 1995 in Britain. 6 months community
service, no time." And then they went to
America and visited O and I and other
top brass. And when they came back, the
tone had totally changed. It was just
really serious. M
>> um which of course eventually turned
into facing 70 years in prison.
>> So it was a huge like using a hammer to
crack a nut. It was you know David and
Goliath that whole thing. Yeah. So wild.
>> Yeah. Well, like you said earlier, I was
just a guy, normal guy interested in
UFOs, happened to have some IT skills,
little bit of hacking, black passwords,
nothing genius level. And then next
thing you know, boom, it just blows up.
>> Try to make an example of you. So, so,
so when you think about those chemicals
and you know, we're we'll get into our
mutual interest in Thomas Towns and
Brown and anti-gravity experiments.
So, you think that they could have been
used to create special alloys or what
you might call metamaterials in UFO world
world
>> uh which allow for greater thrust in
these anti-gravity experiments. One
thing that is true about the Biffield
Brown effect and this anti-gravity
experiment is that if you use an
insulator in the middle that is
considered a high K dialectric which
means it stores and discharges easily a
lot of electromagnetism a lot of you
know electricity it stores electric
fields in it specifically. Um the thrust
you see in the experiment is is much
greater from the the negative electrode
to the positive electrode. So do you
think that you know I guess berium is
actually in towns and browns documents
like he talks about it all the time >> titanite
>> titanite >> exactly
>> exactly
>> so and then what was the other I can't
never pronounce it >> malibdinum
>> malibdinum
>> malibdinum and and you looked into that
and that's for like creating alloys.
>> Yeah I think it's a a strengthening
alloy. It's been a long time since I
looked into it but I think that's what
it was. It was like a strengthening alloy.
alloy.
>> Any other chemicals? It might have even
had a shielding. Um,
>> not not gravitational shielding, but
like radiation shielding or some kind. I
think maybe similar to lead, but I'm not
a physicist, so don't quote me.
>> But it's super interesting if it's used
on like current space vehicles. Like
people should go out and look that up
because if it is, you know, that might
be an interesting lead.
>> Do some patent searches. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
believed them barium strontium
strontium >> strontium
>> strontium
>> yeah strontium
>> and strontium is also mentioned in brown
stuff I believe or
>> I can't remember any others
>> okay and but isn't strontium I believe
is one of Gary Nolan's pieces that he
has at the you know Stanford lab that he
thinks might be UFO metamaterials that
come from crashes I believe has strontium in it
strontium in it >> yeah it's a good dialectric um I forget
>> yeah it's a good dialectric um I forget it's K constant But I know it's high.
it's K constant But I know it's high. >> So it's also a highk dialectric.
>> So it's also a highk dialectric. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> This is crazy. So you have a list of
>> This is crazy. So you have a list of non-terrestrial officers.
non-terrestrial officers. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. So
>> Yeah. So >> and then what does the fleettofleet
>> and then what does the fleettofleet thing mean?
thing mean? >> This was fleetto fleet transfers cuz it
>> This was fleetto fleet transfers cuz it was a it was one spreadsheet but it had
was a it was one spreadsheet but it had tabs.
tabs. >> So there was the officers names.
>> So there was the officers names. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> There was ship names and there was
>> There was ship names and there was material a material transfer. Do you
material a material transfer. Do you remember the ship names?
remember the ship names? >> No.
>> No. >> Okay. But what Okay. What when you're
>> Okay. But what Okay. What when you're looking at this, what is your instinct
looking at this, what is your instinct as to like cuz there are all sorts of
as to like cuz there are all sorts of wild interpretations people have, you
wild interpretations people have, you know, people make up the secret space
know, people make up the secret space program, Solar Warden stuff. What was
program, Solar Warden stuff. What was your in the moment? What are you
your in the moment? What are you thinking when you see this?
thinking when you see this? >> Well, that's exactly where I was.
>> Well, that's exactly where I was. Imagine you were me, UFO guy, you know,
Imagine you were me, UFO guy, you know, quite an active interest. Um, and then
quite an active interest. Um, and then finding this. And so obviously that's
finding this. And so obviously that's where my first thoughts go. So I'm
where my first thoughts go. So I'm thinking non-aterrestrial officers.
thinking non-aterrestrial officers. That's the baseline for the whole
That's the baseline for the whole document. So they're not on Earth. But I
document. So they're not on Earth. But I was thinking, well, they could be
was thinking, well, they could be they're probably it's probably people.
they're probably it's probably people. They're not non-aterrestrial cuz they're
They're not non-aterrestrial cuz they're not human. They're nateral cuz it's
not human. They're nateral cuz it's non-ear based. So it's out in space. So
non-ear based. So it's out in space. So space force was my first thought. It's
space force was my first thought. It's got to be a space force. Uh, obviously
got to be a space force. Uh, obviously secret.
secret. Um, and then with the chemicals and
Um, and then with the chemicals and stuff and the ship names then and
stuff and the ship names then and fleetto fleet transfers. There was more
fleetto fleet transfers. There was more than one ship
than one ship and then exotic materials.
and then exotic materials. And so, you know, it's kind of 2 plus 2
And so, you know, it's kind of 2 plus 2 equals four.
equals four. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> You know, obviously it's to do with my
>> You know, obviously it's to do with my mindset. That's what I was looking for.
mindset. That's what I was looking for. So, that's how I interpreted.
So, that's how I interpreted. >> Well, you know what I would do if I was
>> Well, you know what I would do if I was office of naval intelligence and I hated
office of naval intelligence and I hated Gary McKinnon. You know what I would do?
Gary McKinnon. You know what I would do? I'd make up some BS secret space
I'd make up some BS secret space program, call it Solar Warden, send
program, call it Solar Warden, send people down the wrong trail when
people down the wrong trail when actually I do have real, you know, deep
actually I do have real, you know, deep space fleets and transfers of these. So,
space fleets and transfers of these. So, but the
but the >> and solar warden did come after me. So,
>> and solar warden did come after me. So, the
the >> Yeah, it did. So, so but but like I'm
>> Yeah, it did. So, so but but like I'm still trying to get to the So, the trans
still trying to get to the So, the trans what do you think the fleetto fleet
what do you think the fleetto fleet transfer of what of people? I think
transfer of what of people? I think materials material first you had the
materials material first you had the people then you had the ships then you
people then you had the ships then you had the um
had the um >> chemicals
>> chemicals >> okay
>> okay >> metal elements
>> metal elements >> okay and do we think that
>> okay and do we think that the material is being transferred
the material is being transferred between human do we don't think that the
between human do we don't think that the material is being transferred between
material is being transferred between extraterrestrials and humans do we or do
extraterrestrials and humans do we or do we think the material is being
we think the material is being transferred between humans
transferred between humans >> I think yeah ship to ship so I guess
>> I think yeah ship to ship so I guess maybe this was kind of like a logistics
maybe this was kind of like a logistics train
train >> like a supply chain in space or
>> like a supply chain in space or something.
something. >> Yeah. Yeah. Just a basic cuz you the
>> Yeah. Yeah. Just a basic cuz you the army is all about the Navy or whoever is
army is all about the Navy or whoever is all about logistics,
all about logistics, >> right? And a lot of these materials if
>> right? And a lot of these materials if they are layered extremely thinly and
they are layered extremely thinly and you have kind of atomic layer deposition
you have kind of atomic layer deposition style stuff, we know that manufacturing
style stuff, we know that manufacturing in space and in zerog environments
in space and in zerog environments allows you. So a lot of these materials
allows you. So a lot of these materials they go, it looks like it was built in
they go, it looks like it was built in zerog. Like this is so crazy.
zerog. Like this is so crazy. >> No faults, no. So maybe they built it in
>> No faults, no. So maybe they built it in confl.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That that's the cam's razor explanation, isn't it? That's the
explanation, isn't it? That's the simplest.
simplest. >> Okay. So there's like a space supply
>> Okay. So there's like a space supply chain where humans are manufacturing
chain where humans are manufacturing these exotic materials in space that you
these exotic materials in space that you literally couldn't uh make.
literally couldn't uh make. >> Not physically impossible on Earth.
>> Not physically impossible on Earth. >> On Earth. Yes.
>> On Earth. Yes. >> That's fascinating. I don't think has
>> That's fascinating. I don't think has anybody ever explicitly tied together
anybody ever explicitly tied together your thing like this like we're doing
your thing like this like we're doing now or
now or >> No, this is fresh and unique.
>> No, this is fresh and unique. >> I love this. This is fascinating because
>> I love this. This is fascinating because if I mean that makes sense. That makes
if I mean that makes sense. That makes sense. Like the other stuff doesn't make
sense. Like the other stuff doesn't make sense. I mean sending people 20 and back
sense. I mean sending people 20 and back into through the sun into a portal or
into through the sun into a portal or the maybe that's possible. I don't know.
the maybe that's possible. I don't know. >> Super soldiers on Mars. No.
>> Super soldiers on Mars. No. >> Yeah. Super soldiers on Mars. I just we
>> Yeah. Super soldiers on Mars. I just we need more evidence if I'm all
need more evidence if I'm all entertained, you know, whatever. But you
entertained, you know, whatever. But you need evidence, you know, you can't you
need evidence, you know, you can't you can't just uh
can't just uh >> Yeah, I'm open to all stories.
>> Yeah, I'm open to all stories. >> Yeah, but this is fascinating. Okay, so
>> Yeah, but this is fascinating. Okay, so you it's like a space supply chain
you it's like a space supply chain logist. It's like a space factory
logist. It's like a space factory essentially
essentially >> where they're creating these meta
>> where they're creating these meta materials that you can't make on Earth
materials that you can't make on Earth and you need deep space to create them.
and you need deep space to create them. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And then so the non-aterrestrial
>> And then so the non-aterrestrial officers would just be humans overseeing
officers would just be humans overseeing >> Yeah. this supply chain, this space
>> Yeah. this supply chain, this space supply chain.
supply chain. >> This is really good because I never even
>> This is really good because I never even saw it in that way before.
saw it in that way before. >> Ah, this is fascinating. And what's
>> Ah, this is fascinating. And what's ironic is they're probably making space
ironic is they're probably making space travel that much easier by creating
travel that much easier by creating these high dialectrics.
these high dialectrics. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Which involve greater thrust in the
>> Which involve greater thrust in the Bfield Brown effect.
Bfield Brown effect. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So they're like making like, you know,
>> So they're like making like, you know, their own program more powerful.
their own program more powerful. >> Yes. With fit.
>> Yes. With fit. >> This is fascinating.
>> This is fascinating. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> Wow. All right.
>> Wow. All right. >> I like that. I like discovery as we go.
>> I like that. I like discovery as we go. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who knows? But like
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, who knows? But like that makes
that makes >> Yeah, it's all speculation.
>> Yeah, it's all speculation. >> It is speculation, but it
>> It is speculation, but it >> the idea that we have people in deep
>> the idea that we have people in deep space or we have like literal alien like
space or we have like literal alien like men in black style like aliens walking
men in black style like aliens walking among us and then we put like navy suits
among us and then we put like navy suits on them, commander suits on them. They
on them, commander suits on them. They were like, "You're a non-terrestrial
were like, "You're a non-terrestrial officer or whatever." That makes less
officer or whatever." That makes less sense. Both of those make less sense.
sense. Both of those make less sense. >> Just don't look at his huge almond
>> Just don't look at his huge almond shaped eyes.
shaped eyes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He'll crawl out
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He'll crawl out of his skin suit occasionally, but like,
of his skin suit occasionally, but like, you know, it's like that we're stuck
you know, it's like that we're stuck between those two options like that or,
between those two options like that or, you know, it's like aliens in like, you
you know, it's like aliens in like, you know, military garb or uh, you know, uh,
know, military garb or uh, you know, uh, uh, you know, literally humans that
uh, you know, literally humans that we've spent that we've sent into like
we've spent that we've sent into like super deep space or whatever.
super deep space or whatever. >> I've never believed any of the stories
>> I've never believed any of the stories of um, alien contact with governments
of um, alien contact with governments and stuff like that. I think it's just
and stuff like that. I think it's just outlandish.
outlandish. >> Yeah. No, I think a lot of that stuff is
>> Yeah. No, I think a lot of that stuff is pretty ridiculous. It feels like passage
pretty ridiculous. It feels like passage material that like is meant to send
material that like is meant to send people down the wrong trail or
people down the wrong trail or something. Yeah. At least it doesn't
something. Yeah. At least it doesn't feel like there's a ton of good
feel like there's a ton of good evidence. I do think there are a lot of
evidence. I do think there are a lot of weird abduction cases where people
weird abduction cases where people experience things,
experience things, >> you know, and and you know, have you
>> you know, and and you know, have you ever had anything like that or
ever had anything like that or >> I had one very strange experience that I
>> I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. Um it was
can't explain to this day. Um it was back in 2006.
back in 2006. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. Uh my girlfriend and I are in what we
Uh my girlfriend and I are in what we call a bedsit in the UK tiny flat on the
call a bedsit in the UK tiny flat on the first floor, not the ground floor. And
first floor, not the ground floor. And uh we'd gone to bed. We gone to sleep.
uh we'd gone to bed. We gone to sleep. And I was suddenly woken up by a really
And I was suddenly woken up by a really sharp pain in my left heel.
sharp pain in my left heel. >> And it felt like 2 or 3:00 a.m. Felt
>> And it felt like 2 or 3:00 a.m. Felt like I've been I was in deep sleep. It
like I've been I was in deep sleep. It had been a few hours. Like what the
had been a few hours. Like what the hell's that? I kind of leaned forward to
hell's that? I kind of leaned forward to check it out. Like something had bitten
check it out. Like something had bitten me. Then immediately I just went
me. Then immediately I just went and was asleep again. In the morning I
and was asleep again. In the morning I woke up and weirdly I don't know why I'd
woke up and weirdly I don't know why I'd gone to bed with my socks on or at least
gone to bed with my socks on or at least one sock on. And then I remembered what
one sock on. And then I remembered what had happened during the night and I
had happened during the night and I pulled the sock off and in my left heel
pulled the sock off and in my left heel there were two perfectly circular holes,
there were two perfectly circular holes, both about five millimeters in diameter
both about five millimeters in diameter and one still had a flap of skin hanging
and one still had a flap of skin hanging off it. Like a hole punch used for paper
off it. Like a hole punch used for paper but about these this far apart.
but about these this far apart. What? I know. And I thought, what the
What? I know. And I thought, what the hell on the first floor? It was I was
hell on the first floor? It was I was trying to think of every possible
trying to think of every possible conventional explanation. Was it a rat
conventional explanation. Was it a rat with perfectly symmetrical 5 mm teeth
with perfectly symmetrical 5 mm teeth had come to my bed and bit me in the
had come to my bed and bit me in the lab, but I'm on the first floor, you
lab, but I'm on the first floor, you know, not the ground floor where like
know, not the ground floor where like rodents could be. Um,
rodents could be. Um, no explanation whatsoever.
no explanation whatsoever. Um, I can't say much more than that cuz
Um, I can't say much more than that cuz but I did um later as I got more into
but I did um later as I got more into electronics and electromagnetics, I did
electronics and electromagnetics, I did like scans and stuff and
like scans and stuff and >> they didn't come up.
>> they didn't come up. >> Couldn't find anything wrong. But a few
>> Couldn't find anything wrong. But a few years later, I found out cuz this some
years later, I found out cuz this some this is something I'm always researching
this is something I'm always researching and looking for an answer cuz I still
and looking for an answer cuz I still haven't got one. There's a company, I
haven't got one. There's a company, I don't know if it was Veraign, there was
don't know if it was Veraign, there was some chipping like electronic chipping
some chipping like electronic chipping company and their process was exactly
company and their process was exactly like that. A double Yeah, a double
like that. A double Yeah, a double injection.
injection. >> Um, and then years later, I've got two
>> Um, and then years later, I've got two bumps that formed where those holes were
bumps that formed where those holes were and then moved around. And I still have
and then moved around. And I still have those bumps.
those bumps. >> What?
>> What? >> On my hill today.
>> On my hill today. >> Do you think a human did that? Do you
>> Do you think a human did that? Do you think an alien did it?
think an alien did it? >> I'm thinking some kind of government
>> I'm thinking some kind of government tracking.
tracking. >> Government tracking,
>> Government tracking, >> which I I feel ridiculous saying it.
>> which I I feel ridiculous saying it. >> Well, do you feel ridiculous saying
>> Well, do you feel ridiculous saying because you had a a 20-year, you know,
because you had a a 20-year, you know, prime ministers were negotiating with
prime ministers were negotiating with American presidents on your behalf uh
American presidents on your behalf uh because the American government had it
because the American government had it out for you. So, I don't think, you
out for you. So, I don't think, you know, I think for a normal person being
know, I think for a normal person being like, you know, they wanted to chip me
like, you know, they wanted to chip me or whatever, like that might be a little
or whatever, like that might be a little paranoid, but
paranoid, but >> I think in your case, I'm not so sure,
>> I think in your case, I'm not so sure, man.
man. >> Yeah. But even so, I wasn't running
>> Yeah. But even so, I wasn't running away. You know, I was on bail.
away. You know, I was on bail. Everything was safe. I was contained, as
Everything was safe. I was contained, as they would put it. Uh, but yeah, I just
they would put it. Uh, but yeah, I just can't explain that. It's just weird as
can't explain that. It's just weird as hell.
hell. >> Interesting. And do you still have that
>> Interesting. And do you still have that in your foot?
in your foot? >> Still have the bumps.
>> Still have the bumps. >> Can I see him?
>> Can I see him? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I hope no one's got any foot fetishes or
I hope no one's got any foot fetishes or or the opposite.
or the opposite. >> Maybe you can start an Only Fans after
>> Maybe you can start an Only Fans after this.
this. >> All right, Strippy's turn.
>> I bet you've not done this before. Sorry for everything.
for everything. >> This is wild.
>> This is wild. >> Are we ready?
>> Are we ready? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So, this company, Veraritoss,
>> So, this company, Veraritoss, >> No, I think it was Veryign or something.
>> No, I think it was Veryign or something. >> Veryign.
>> Veryign. >> I might have It definitely began with a
>> I might have It definitely began with a V, but I can't remember. And they do
V, but I can't remember. And they do these little chip implants.
these little chip implants. >> Yeah. So when I woke up with the holes,
>> Yeah. So when I woke up with the holes, they were kind of round here in the
they were kind of round here in the corner, but now they've they've moved
corner, but now they've they've moved slightly. So one's there. It's a lesser
slightly. So one's there. It's a lesser >> WA.
>> WA. >> And the other one's there.
>> And the other one's there. >> Well, the other one's big.
>> Well, the other one's big. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Like that's like very easy to spot.
>> Like that's like very easy to spot. >> Yeah. Unless the other one.
>> Yeah. Unless the other one. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> I think that's shrunk over time,
>> I think that's shrunk over time, actually.
actually. >> Yeah. It feels smaller.
>> Yeah. It feels smaller. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Wa.
>> Wa. Weird. The company Gary is talking about
Weird. The company Gary is talking about here isn't called VeraSign. It's called
here isn't called VeraSign. It's called Vera Chip. And yes, it's done work in
Vera Chip. And yes, it's done work in human microchipping. In fact, the
human microchipping. In fact, the company has produced a tiny RFID
company has produced a tiny RFID microchip about the size of a grain of
microchip about the size of a grain of rice that implants under the skin,
rice that implants under the skin, transmits a unique ID when scanned, and
transmits a unique ID when scanned, and links to a database with personal or
links to a database with personal or medical information. This chip is
medical information. This chip is essentially a permanent tracking and
essentially a permanent tracking and identification tool.
identification tool. >> To think something so small can connect
>> To think something so small can connect you to everything that matters
you to everything that matters >> when your life and all you love are on
>> when your life and all you love are on the line.
the line. >> The chip was introduced to the market in
>> The chip was introduced to the market in 2002, just a few years before Gary's
2002, just a few years before Gary's experience in 2005. And according to
experience in 2005. And according to Gary, the company's double injection
Gary, the company's double injection method would cause something that looks
method would cause something that looks exactly like the two bumps on his foot.
exactly like the two bumps on his foot. I'll let you decide if that's a
I'll let you decide if that's a coincidence or not. If you look a little
coincidence or not. If you look a little deeper, Verip's corporate lineage runs
deeper, Verip's corporate lineage runs through Applied Digital Solutions and
through Applied Digital Solutions and Prospectus filings show that the
Prospectus filings show that the implantable microchips themselves were
implantable microchips themselves were ultimately sourced from a subsidiary of
ultimately sourced from a subsidiary of Rathon.
Rathon. >> What we do saves lives. It protects
>> What we do saves lives. It protects peace and democracy throughout the
peace and democracy throughout the world.
world. >> Yes, that Rathon, one of the largest
>> Yes, that Rathon, one of the largest defense contractors in the world, deeply
defense contractors in the world, deeply embedded in military systems, missile
embedded in military systems, missile guidance, radar, and classified
guidance, radar, and classified electronics. By the end of the 2000s,
electronics. By the end of the 2000s, VerichIP themselves had secured the
VerichIP themselves had secured the rights to technology that would allow
rights to technology that would allow the chips to detect viruses from inside
the chips to detect viruses from inside the body, including strains like H1N1.
the body, including strains like H1N1. The proposal described an implant that
The proposal described an implant that could determine whether a virus was
could determine whether a virus was present, what kind it was, and how
present, what kind it was, and how serious the threat might be. At that
serious the threat might be. At that point, the device would no longer just
point, the device would no longer just be identifying a person. It would be
be identifying a person. It would be monitoring their unique physiology and
monitoring their unique physiology and biomedical data. Completely dystopian to
biomedical data. Completely dystopian to say the least. And even more dystopian,
say the least. And even more dystopian, knowing that this tracking technology
knowing that this tracking technology was likely used in retaliation on an
was likely used in retaliation on an ordinary citizen like Gary McKinnon. So
ordinary citizen like Gary McKinnon. So if that were surgically removed, what do
if that were surgically removed, what do you think you would find? I don't know.
you think you would find? I don't know. Uh maybe two lumps of uh unanalyzable
Uh maybe two lumps of uh unanalyzable material. I don't know. I think I didn't
material. I don't know. I think I didn't have so much good equipment back then,
have so much good equipment back then, but now I have really good stuff for
but now I have really good stuff for electromagnetic analysis, radio
electromagnetic analysis, radio frequency analysis, and I'd rather do
frequency analysis, and I'd rather do that first before having it removed.
that first before having it removed. >> You should do all that.
>> You should do all that. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Should do it like tomorrow.
>> Should do it like tomorrow. >> Okay. I'll ask my local doctor.
>> Okay. I'll ask my local doctor. >> I'm just saying. I'm just saying. You
>> I'm just saying. I'm just saying. You know, you don't want uh the names to go
know, you don't want uh the names to go missing like in the, you know,
missing like in the, you know, non-aterrestrial officers. Like you want
non-aterrestrial officers. Like you want it you like do it now, you know? Yeah.
it you like do it now, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Figure it out. Oh.
Yeah. Figure it out. Oh. >> Uh, so I joke we're we're in between
>> Uh, so I joke we're we're in between your implant experience and then this
your implant experience and then this possible space supply chain for
possible space supply chain for anti-gravity materials and I don't know
anti-gravity materials and I don't know where to go. My head's exploding. Um,
where to go. My head's exploding. Um, but uh
but uh >> yeah, I mean is there anything just
>> yeah, I mean is there anything just going back to the materials thing and
going back to the materials thing and the the fleetto fleet transfer?
the the fleetto fleet transfer? It's just so fascinating. And it's
It's just so fascinating. And it's fascinating that you're into towns and
fascinating that you're into towns and brown too.
brown too. >> Oh man. It's like you have this like
>> Oh man. It's like you have this like hermetic connection to this whole
hermetic connection to this whole subject like you were meant to like see
subject like you were meant to like see that or something like like what
that or something like like what anything else as far as takeaways from
anything else as far as takeaways from that document, you know, and
that document, you know, and interpreting it because it was it James
interpreting it because it was it James Fox came out with the program and he he
Fox came out with the program and he he you know uh did this great piece on you.
you know uh did this great piece on you. But I think a lot of people do take what
But I think a lot of people do take what you found and run with it um as far as
you found and run with it um as far as just the people out there like their
just the people out there like their interpretations of it when they see you
interpretations of it when they see you know uh people discuss it.
know uh people discuss it. >> Yeah. So you're this is your
>> Yeah. So you're this is your interpretation that it's some sort of
interpretation that it's some sort of supply chain in space or something or
supply chain in space or something or >> Well, we we stumbled on that together
>> Well, we we stumbled on that together >> together, I guess.
>> together, I guess. >> So yeah, I I really connected it in that
>> So yeah, I I really connected it in that way that it was a supply chain. It just
way that it was a supply chain. It just came to my mind while we were speaking
came to my mind while we were speaking and in light of what we both know now,
and in light of what we both know now, it does make sense in terms of potential
it does make sense in terms of potential propulsion, the materials that might be
propulsion, the materials that might be necessary for that as a dialectric or
necessary for that as a dialectric or so. It's pretty amazing.
so. It's pretty amazing. >> No, it it makes total sense. There was a
>> No, it it makes total sense. There was a company called Maiden Space that tried
company called Maiden Space that tried to do this for a while. There's now a
to do this for a while. There's now a probably more promising company called
probably more promising company called Vartispace which does this. It's like
Vartispace which does this. It's like factories in space. At the end of the
factories in space. At the end of the day, you can think of the value
day, you can think of the value proposition as this is we can do special
proposition as this is we can do special chemistry because we can essentially
chemistry because we can essentially turn off gravity for the manufacturing
turn off gravity for the manufacturing engineer. And then often commercial
engineer. And then often commercial companies are doing things that have
companies are doing things that have already been done in classified
already been done in classified settings. And so the stuff that was done
settings. And so the stuff that was done in classified settings might have been
in classified settings might have been this. You know, who knows? I mean right
this. You know, who knows? I mean right now I think we it's like we have that
now I think we it's like we have that are known like six people in space like
are known like six people in space like six astronauts like on you know the ISS
six astronauts like on you know the ISS and on various space day I think the you
and on various space day I think the you know Chinese space station they have an
know Chinese space station they have an astronaut or two. So, the idea that how
astronaut or two. So, the idea that how many uh officers were on this list?
many uh officers were on this list? >> At least 40ish.
>> At least 40ish. >> 40-ish. So, maybe they're in space or
>> 40-ish. So, maybe they're in space or maybe they were also and maybe they were
maybe they were also and maybe they were in orbit or maybe they were just
in orbit or maybe they were just managing this non-terrestrial,
managing this non-terrestrial, you know, uh kind of atomic layer
you know, uh kind of atomic layer deposition process or, you know,
deposition process or, you know, materials manufacturing or something.
materials manufacturing or something. >> Yeah. I've always thought there weren't
>> Yeah. I've always thought there weren't aliens. I thought this is bound to be
aliens. I thought this is bound to be because it says non-aterrestrial
because it says non-aterrestrial obviously, not extraterrestrial. So in
obviously, not extraterrestrial. So in other words, they're on a a fleet that
other words, they're on a a fleet that isn't based in spa in on Earth.
isn't based in spa in on Earth. >> When we talk about a speculative secret
>> When we talk about a speculative secret space program, we should establish
space program, we should establish something clearly. There really was an
something clearly. There really was an uncontested, very real, and now
uncontested, very real, and now declassified secret space program. The
declassified secret space program. The US Air Force ran its own classified
US Air Force ran its own classified manned space effort alongside NASA's
manned space effort alongside NASA's more public-f facing ones.
more public-f facing ones. In the 1960s, while the world watched
In the 1960s, while the world watched Saturn 5 rockets rise under the banner
Saturn 5 rockets rise under the banner of Apollo, the Air Force was developing
of Apollo, the Air Force was developing the manned orbiting laboratory, a
the manned orbiting laboratory, a military space station designed for
military space station designed for reconnaissance of America's enemies and
reconnaissance of America's enemies and other orbital operations. 17 military
other orbital operations. 17 military astronauts were selected. A modified
astronauts were selected. A modified Gemini capsule was built. Titan 3
Gemini capsule was built. Titan 3 rockets were assigned. Launches into
rockets were assigned. Launches into polar orbit were planned from
polar orbit were planned from Vandenberg. And then in June of 1969,
Vandenberg. And then in June of 1969, exactly 1 month before the Apollo
exactly 1 month before the Apollo mission reached the moon for the first
mission reached the moon for the first time, the man orbiting laboratory was
time, the man orbiting laboratory was cancelled.
cancelled. Advances in automated spy satellites
Advances in automated spy satellites made human observers redundant. Vietnam
made human observers redundant. Vietnam was draining resources. The Apollo
was draining resources. The Apollo program was imminent. So the classified
program was imminent. So the classified space program was folded. But in defense
space program was folded. But in defense culture, cancellation does not
culture, cancellation does not necessarily mean disappearance. Programs
necessarily mean disappearance. Programs are restructured. Personnel are
are restructured. Personnel are reassigned. Infrastructure is absorbed
reassigned. Infrastructure is absorbed into deeper compartments. So what
into deeper compartments. So what happened to the military astronaut
happened to the military astronaut program? Where did the classified
program? Where did the classified orbital expertise go? And what was
orbital expertise go? And what was really going on with the classified
really going on with the classified space program?
space program? In 1993, former Loheed Skunkworks
In 1993, former Loheed Skunkworks director Ben Rich was speaking at a UCLA
director Ben Rich was speaking at a UCLA alumni event. Rich had overseen programs
alumni event. Rich had overseen programs like the U2, the SR71, and the F-17,
like the U2, the SR71, and the F-17, stealth aircraft that had lived in total
stealth aircraft that had lived in total secrecy before becoming public
secrecy before becoming public knowledge. At the end of his
knowledge. At the end of his presentation, according to multiple
presentation, according to multiple attendees, Rich's final slide showed a
attendees, Rich's final slide showed a black discshaped craft flying into
black discshaped craft flying into space. He closed with the famous words,
space. He closed with the famous words, "We now have the technology to take ET
"We now have the technology to take ET home."
home." Was he just messing with the audience?
Was he just messing with the audience? Rich would end up dying just 2 years
Rich would end up dying just 2 years later, but towards the end of his life,
later, but towards the end of his life, he would privately say things that
he would privately say things that sounded very similar to this UCLA
sounded very similar to this UCLA speech. Things about prodigious American
speech. Things about prodigious American space capabilities the public could
space capabilities the public could barely dream of. Just before Ben Rich
barely dream of. Just before Ben Rich passed away, uh when I was talking to
passed away, uh when I was talking to him, he told me, this is at the end of a
him, he told me, this is at the end of a 45minute uh conversation, he said, "Jim,
45minute uh conversation, he said, "Jim, we have things out in the desert." And
we have things out in the desert." And he wasn't referring to Area 51. We have
he wasn't referring to Area 51. We have things out in the desert that is 50
things out in the desert that is 50 years beyond what you can comprehend.
years beyond what you can comprehend. I can comprehend a hell of a lot. and he
I can comprehend a hell of a lot. and he said, "If you've seen movies like Star
said, "If you've seen movies like Star Trek or Star Wars, we've been there,
Trek or Star Wars, we've been there, done that, but decided it wasn't worth
done that, but decided it wasn't worth the effort."
the effort." >> Ben Rich's son, Michael Rich, was the
>> Ben Rich's son, Michael Rich, was the president and CEO of Rand Corporation
president and CEO of Rand Corporation for decades. Rand was the Santa Monica
for decades. Rand was the Santa Monica based federally funded research and
based federally funded research and development center evaluating the
development center evaluating the prospects of project Orion, nuclear
prospects of project Orion, nuclear pulse propulsion craft that could
pulse propulsion craft that could theoretically carry very large crews,
theoretically carry very large crews, reach Mars or outer planets and enable
reach Mars or outer planets and enable long duration missions. Not
long duration missions. Not coincidentally, Rand has also conducted
coincidentally, Rand has also conducted comprehensive research on the
comprehensive research on the non-engineering side of deep space
non-engineering side of deep space travel, crew psychology and isolation,
travel, crew psychology and isolation, life support logistics, radiation
life support logistics, radiation hazards, resupply challenges, cost and
hazards, resupply challenges, cost and national priorities. Rand Corporation
national priorities. Rand Corporation also happened to be intensely interested
also happened to be intensely interested in the gravity manipulating deep space
in the gravity manipulating deep space propulsion work of towns in Brown. his
propulsion work of towns in Brown. his work going dark after he showed them a
work going dark after he showed them a demo in 1967.
demo in 1967. President Ronald Reagan may have also
President Ronald Reagan may have also inadvertently left a hint around secret
inadvertently left a hint around secret American space capabilities in his diary
American space capabilities in his diary entry from June 11th, 1985.
entry from June 11th, 1985. Lunch was with five top space
Lunch was with five top space scientists. It was fascinating. Space
scientists. It was fascinating. Space truly is the last frontier and some of
truly is the last frontier and some of the developments there in astronomy etc.
the developments there in astronomy etc. are like science fiction except they are
are like science fiction except they are real. I learned that our shuttle
real. I learned that our shuttle capacity is such we could orbit 300
capacity is such we could orbit 300 people. You read that right. Not one
people. You read that right. Not one shuttle crew, not a single mission, 300
shuttle crew, not a single mission, 300 people in Earth's orbit in space. If you
people in Earth's orbit in space. If you ask your favorite AI conversation agent,
ask your favorite AI conversation agent, it'll tell you that we only have 10 or
it'll tell you that we only have 10 or so people in space today, but we somehow
so people in space today, but we somehow had the capacity for 300 in the 80s. In
had the capacity for 300 in the 80s. In 2020, Him Eched, former head of Israel's
2020, Him Eched, former head of Israel's defense ministry's space directorate,
defense ministry's space directorate, essentially the father of the Israeli
essentially the father of the Israeli space program, publicly claimed that
space program, publicly claimed that American astronauts and alien
American astronauts and alien representatives were operating on
representatives were operating on underground bases on Mars. These bizarre
underground bases on Mars. These bizarre hints have stacked up over the decades,
hints have stacked up over the decades, and maybe they are mirrored in one of
and maybe they are mirrored in one of the most famous fictional versions of a
the most famous fictional versions of a secret space force, Stargate. With
secret space force, Stargate. With visible cooperation from the US Air
visible cooperation from the US Air Force, the production of the show
Force, the production of the show Stargate leaned on realworld military
Stargate leaned on realworld military structures and culture. In fact, two
structures and culture. In fact, two sitting Air Force Chiefs of Staff,
sitting Air Force Chiefs of Staff, Michael E. Ryan and John P. Jumper
Michael E. Ryan and John P. Jumper appeared on the show as themselves.
appeared on the show as themselves. These guys literally ran the Air Force
These guys literally ran the Air Force and were showing up for cameos on this
and were showing up for cameos on this show. The lead actor on the show,
show. The lead actor on the show, Richard Dean Anderson, was later made an
Richard Dean Anderson, was later made an honorary brigadier general in
honorary brigadier general in recognition of what the Air Force
recognition of what the Air Force described as the program's positive
described as the program's positive portrayal of the service. The show's
portrayal of the service. The show's central premise, a classified off-world
central premise, a classified off-world program run by the Air Force from a
program run by the Air Force from a hidden command facility. show up.
hidden command facility. show up. >> Of course, the military connection might
>> Of course, the military connection might have just been due to some fans among
have just been due to some fans among the Air Force staff. Or maybe it was
the Air Force staff. Or maybe it was just another tiny hint towards something
just another tiny hint towards something really big going on in secret. Strange
really big going on in secret. Strange stories of a parallel space program are
stories of a parallel space program are apocryphal, but they are more abundant
apocryphal, but they are more abundant than you might think, like this stunning
than you might think, like this stunning revelation shared with Ross Koulthart on
revelation shared with Ross Koulthart on Chris Ramsay's Area 52. There was a
Chris Ramsay's Area 52. There was a conversation I had with someone
conversation I had with someone who I trust
who I trust who got very emotional and described a
who got very emotional and described a friend of his dying on the moon.
friend of his dying on the moon. Wow. And I What do you make of that? I
Wow. And I What do you make of that? I didn't know what to make of it. It's
didn't know what to make of it. It's important to remember that the public
important to remember that the public didn't even know the NRO or National
didn't even know the NRO or National Reconnaissance Office existed for
Reconnaissance Office existed for decades. The parallel classified Air
decades. The parallel classified Air Force Astronaut program wasn't fully
Force Astronaut program wasn't fully declassified until 2015. So, is it so
declassified until 2015. So, is it so crazy to think we might have
crazy to think we might have experimented with covert human space
experimented with covert human space flight and exotic material supply chains
flight and exotic material supply chains since then? The benefits of building
since then? The benefits of building materials in space cannot be
materials in space cannot be understated. Matter in space, because of
understated. Matter in space, because of its lower gravity environment, behaves
its lower gravity environment, behaves in ways that are basically impossible on
in ways that are basically impossible on Earth. Without gravity, there's no
Earth. Without gravity, there's no convection, no settling, no buoyancy,
convection, no settling, no buoyancy, tearing materials apart as they form.
tearing materials apart as they form. Liquids stay perfectly mixed. Crystals
Liquids stay perfectly mixed. Crystals grow with extraordinary purity. Optical
grow with extraordinary purity. Optical fibers can be drawn with almost no
fibers can be drawn with almost no internal flaws, potentially
internal flaws, potentially outperforming anything made on the
outperforming anything made on the ground. So it's also not that crazy to
ground. So it's also not that crazy to assume that we've experimented with this
assume that we've experimented with this technology for extremely high value meta
technology for extremely high value meta materials used at the highest levels of
materials used at the highest levels of aerospace. Now where would such a
aerospace. Now where would such a program be headquartered? NASA's Johnson
program be headquartered? NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston is not only
Space Center in Houston is not only where McKinnon found UFO related images
where McKinnon found UFO related images and spreadsheets. It's the NASA complex
and spreadsheets. It's the NASA complex that specifically focuses on human space
that specifically focuses on human space flight. The notorious line, "Houston, we
flight. The notorious line, "Houston, we have a problem," refers to mission
have a problem," refers to mission control at Johnson Space Center in
control at Johnson Space Center in Houston. So, if you were operating a man
Houston. So, if you were operating a man spaceflight operation involving a
spaceflight operation involving a material supply chain, that's exactly
material supply chain, that's exactly where you'd put it. I should be clear,
where you'd put it. I should be clear, too, like both of us aren't trying to f
too, like both of us aren't trying to f fully pour cold water on UFO crashes.
fully pour cold water on UFO crashes. Like, I think
Like, I think >> No, not at all.
>> No, not at all. >> I think like I think Roswell happened. I
>> I think like I think Roswell happened. I think that Virginia happened in 1996. So
think that Virginia happened in 1996. So it's always yes and in the UFO world
it's always yes and in the UFO world like it's all like all the but I think
like it's all like all the but I think intentional conflations also are
intentional conflations also are systematically done by the intelligence
systematically done by the intelligence world and it's important to be able to
world and it's important to be able to parse through all these things.
parse through all these things. >> Yeah. And of course it's it's human
>> Yeah. And of course it's it's human nature to super associate stuff with
nature to super associate stuff with something you want to be true so we can
something you want to be true so we can all fall down that hole as well.
all fall down that hole as well. >> Yeah. No, of course. Um well I'm I'm
>> Yeah. No, of course. Um well I'm I'm officially uh shocked. This is crazy. I
officially uh shocked. This is crazy. I mean, the Navy does do like the most
mean, the Navy does do like the most exotic materials stuff as well. Like
exotic materials stuff as well. Like there's this place Naval Surface Warfare
there's this place Naval Surface Warfare Crane that does this. Bell Battel
Crane that does this. Bell Battel Memorial Institute does a lot of exotic
Memorial Institute does a lot of exotic material stuff uh as well.
material stuff uh as well. And so, yeah, I really I do wonder if
And so, yeah, I really I do wonder if you know, yeah, some of this is
you know, yeah, some of this is humanmade and then if you say it's of
humanmade and then if you say it's of alien provenence, then it's this like
alien provenence, then it's this like perfect, you know, kind of black box
perfect, you know, kind of black box where like people can interpret it
where like people can interpret it however they want. And
however they want. And >> yeah, it's a great shield, isn't it?
>> yeah, it's a great shield, isn't it? Good umbrella.
Good umbrella. >> It is. And then the fact that and what's
>> It is. And then the fact that and what's wild
wild is that like you're now experimenting
is that like you're now experimenting with materials like you literally have
with materials like you literally have materials in mind that make the Bfield
materials in mind that make the Bfield Brown effect. Like you're interested in
Brown effect. Like you're interested in these anti-gravity experiments that
these anti-gravity experiments that involve some of these chemicals that and
involve some of these chemicals that and materials that you saw.
materials that you saw. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Which is wild.
>> Which is wild. >> Yeah. Well, the um Yeah. It's um yeah
>> Yeah. Well, the um Yeah. It's um yeah since 2007 since I first read about by
since 2007 since I first read about by Phil Brown. Uh
Phil Brown. Uh >> how'd you read about it? How'd you come
>> how'd you read about it? How'd you come across it?
across it? >> I don't remember precisely, but it was
>> I don't remember precisely, but it was >> because that's early.
>> because that's early. >> Yeah, it was undoubtedly researching UFO
>> Yeah, it was undoubtedly researching UFO stuff, anti-gravity stuff specifically
stuff, anti-gravity stuff specifically what brought me to that.
what brought me to that. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Um
>> Um but yeah, what attracted me was the fact
but yeah, what attracted me was the fact that you can you can do this in your,
that you can you can do this in your, you know, home garage or shed or
you know, home garage or shed or whatever. You know, you don't have to be
whatever. You know, you don't have to be a scientist. You have to be a scientist
a scientist. You have to be a scientist to understand the mechanism which no one
to understand the mechanism which no one has yet does,
has yet does, >> but you don't have to be a scientist to
>> but you don't have to be a scientist to do it on the bench and try some
do it on the bench and try some experiments cuz all it a capacitor
experiments cuz all it a capacitor >> two conductive plates in between them
>> two conductive plates in between them sandwiched uh
sandwiched uh >> an insulator a dialectric that stores
>> an insulator a dialectric that stores electric charge. So you know what what's
electric charge. So you know what what's complicated about that? Um and if you
complicated about that? Um and if you read all the
read all the the so-called research into the BB
the so-called research into the BB effect, none of it is exhaustive. None
effect, none of it is exhaustive. None of it. It's all I did 5 kilovolts at DC.
of it. It's all I did 5 kilovolts at DC. I did 10 kolts of AC. Obviously, Buler
I did 10 kolts of AC. Obviously, Buler went very far. There are a few people
went very far. There are a few people that went far. Army Research Laboratory,
that went far. Army Research Laboratory, but no one's done a huge battery of
but no one's done a huge battery of tests with a multitude of dialectrics, a
tests with a multitude of dialectrics, a multitude of uh different plates, the
multitude of uh different plates, the mass of the plates, not just the
mass of the plates, not just the material. Uh is it AC? Is it DC? Do you
material. Uh is it AC? Is it DC? Do you use a sine wave? Do you use a a ramp
use a sine wave? Do you use a a ramp wave or a triangle wave or a sawtooth
wave or a triangle wave or a sawtooth wave or um how long's your pulse? What's
wave or um how long's your pulse? What's your delay? is that there's so many well
your delay? is that there's so many well there's quite a few parameters compared
there's quite a few parameters compared to a lot of stuff but for a home
to a lot of stuff but for a home experimentter
experimentter it it's doable within a few hundred
it it's doable within a few hundred hours I think and I I've probably done
hours I think and I I've probably done about 60 hours all told I've done
about 60 hours all told I've done thousands of hours of reading but
thousands of hours of reading but probably 60 hours experimentation
probably 60 hours experimentation >> w wild so you've done 60 hours of
>> w wild so you've done 60 hours of running the actual experiment
running the actual experiment >> oh no no like like
>> oh no no like like research into materials trying yeah I
research into materials trying yeah I did try I mean I started off with
did try I mean I started off with lifters you know try and get a baker and
lifters you know try and get a baker and that was Yeah. It's interesting.
that was Yeah. It's interesting. >> But it's Bolster wood and Baker foil.
>> But it's Bolster wood and Baker foil. >> And there was there used to be a website
>> And there was there used to be a website called Blaze Lamps.
called Blaze Lamps. >> Mhm. And um they had some really
>> Mhm. And um they had some really wellinformed guys there exerospace that
wellinformed guys there exerospace that knew all the like um aerodynamic mass
knew all the like um aerodynamic mass and stuff and they said just like army
and stuff and they said just like army research laboratory they said there's no
research laboratory they said there's no way that this battered you know metal
way that this battered you know metal foil sheet which isn't even perfectly
foil sheet which isn't even perfectly smooth like an airplane wing there's no
smooth like an airplane wing there's no way that aerodynamically that can be
way that aerodynamically that can be pushed just by ion flow
pushed just by ion flow >> just no way uh arl said it was like at
>> just no way uh arl said it was like at least 10 20% above what could be
least 10 20% above what could be achieved by ion flow
achieved by ion flow >> which is exly exactly what Brown said.
>> which is exly exactly what Brown said. And so for the audience, Towns and Brown
And so for the audience, Towns and Brown is this mid-century very mysterious
is this mid-century very mysterious uh inventor who started with the Navy,
uh inventor who started with the Navy, then joined Martin Vega, which was, you
then joined Martin Vega, which was, you know, pre-locked Martin merger uh you
know, pre-locked Martin merger uh you know, the year that Skunk Works formed
know, the year that Skunk Works formed and then kind of popped up in all sorts
and then kind of popped up in all sorts of, you know, three-letter agency
of, you know, three-letter agency contexts and was, you know,
contexts and was, you know, shoulder-to-shoulder with elite American
shoulder-to-shoulder with elite American military brass people like Curtis Lame.
military brass people like Curtis Lame. you know, just this very mysterious
you know, just this very mysterious figure who consistently claimed that he
figure who consistently claimed that he would get these positive results in
would get these positive results in these anti-gravity experiments or what
these anti-gravity experiments or what he called electrogravidics. There's even
he called electrogravidics. There's even a video of him popping champagne from
a video of him popping champagne from the Bonsson lab at the Institute of
the Bonsson lab at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, which
Field Physics in North Carolina, which we know is the CIA outpost studying
we know is the CIA outpost studying anti-gravity and literally convening all
anti-gravity and literally convening all the best uh theoretical physicists on
the best uh theoretical physicists on the question of gravity in 1957. And it
the question of gravity in 1957. And it was all sponsored by Wright Airfield,
was all sponsored by Wright Airfield, which is where all the UFO rumors come
which is where all the UFO rumors come from. They were literally paying for
from. They were literally paying for this, you know, for a lot of this
this, you know, for a lot of this research.
research. >> Connections.
>> Connections. >> Yeah. Weird connections. Um, and so if
>> Yeah. Weird connections. Um, and so if you take what he claimed about his own
you take what he claimed about his own his own experiments at face value, you'd
his own experiments at face value, you'd have this crazy update against, you
have this crazy update against, you know, SpaceX and like chemical
know, SpaceX and like chemical combustion. It would be this like total
combustion. It would be this like total paradigm shifting thing. It's not It's
paradigm shifting thing. It's not It's not a small deal. It's a really big
not a small deal. It's a really big deal.
deal. >> Yeah. And the thing about Brown is we
>> Yeah. And the thing about Brown is we almost know we know for a fact that he
almost know we know for a fact that he was one of the number one radar guys in
was one of the number one radar guys in the Navy. There's an FBI file from 1942
the Navy. There's an FBI file from 1942 or three that basically says he knows
or three that basically says he knows more about radar than anybody in the
more about radar than anybody in the Navy.
Navy. >> And that that's number one. Number two,
>> And that that's number one. Number two, electro-hydrodnamics which is not
electro-hydrodnamics which is not electrogravitics. It's the manipulation
electrogravitics. It's the manipulation of air flow with electric fields, which
of air flow with electric fields, which is how that the tin foil, you know,
is how that the tin foil, you know, balsa wood, you know, DIY uh uh uh
balsa wood, you know, DIY uh uh uh foilers work and fly. Uh but it's also
foilers work and fly. Uh but it's also what made it into the B2 stealth bomber.
what made it into the B2 stealth bomber. And I'm pretty sure I I kind of have the
And I'm pretty sure I I kind of have the receipts on that, too. So, like that's
receipts on that, too. So, like that's So, you have these two things where he's
So, you have these two things where he's like the best like EHD, you know,
like the best like EHD, you know, electrohydrodnamics and radar. And then
electrohydrodnamics and radar. And then he's claiming that he can also merge
he's claiming that he can also merge electromagnetism and gravity, which is
electromagnetism and gravity, which is the holy grail of physics theory.
the holy grail of physics theory. >> And so it's like, okay, so like he's
>> And so it's like, okay, so like he's right on two out of the three things,
right on two out of the three things, but he's a total quack on the third
but he's a total quack on the third thing, and there's so much smoke around
thing, and there's so much smoke around it. And then now you have the lead
it. And then now you have the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA who
electrostatic scientist at NASA who could is the global authority on being
could is the global authority on being able to tell you that this experiment is
able to tell you that this experiment is only attributable to conventional
only attributable to conventional electrostatics. And he's saying that no
electrostatics. And he's saying that no this is it works. It works in a vacuum.
this is it works. It works in a vacuum. So you can't do it with ionized air.
So you can't do it with ionized air. Physics in its in its current form
Physics in its in its current form cannot explain this. and his own
cannot explain this. and his own experiments, Charles Beller, who you
experiments, Charles Beller, who you mentioned.
mentioned. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Are derivative of Towns and Brown's
>> Are derivative of Towns and Brown's work.
work. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And so like I think there is so much
>> And so like I think there is so much smoke. There's the Japanese experiment
smoke. There's the Japanese experiment that you mentioned, the Musha paper,
that you mentioned, the Musha paper, >> Musha Tequa,
>> Musha Tequa, >> and maybe I got his name wrong.
>> and maybe I got his name wrong. >> Uh they said that they get, you know, a
>> Uh they said that they get, you know, a successful result. In that case, I think
successful result. In that case, I think they submerge uh the whole thing in in
they submerge uh the whole thing in in transmission oil, which also you can't
transmission oil, which also you can't ionize transmission oil. Like, you know,
ionize transmission oil. Like, you know, that's not going to work. Um, so, uh,
that's not going to work. Um, so, uh, yeah. Is are they coordinating with
yeah. Is are they coordinating with these people in the US for like, you
these people in the US for like, you know, are they like some deep state
know, are they like some deep state thing in Japan? Like, I don't think so.
thing in Japan? Like, I don't think so. You know, it's like this global thing.
You know, it's like this global thing. So,
So, >> yeah, this is wild. So, I when I we were
>> yeah, this is wild. So, I when I we were setting this up and uh, you know, I was
setting this up and uh, you know, I was talking to you on the phone and you were
talking to you on the phone and you were like, "Yeah, I'm super into Towns and
like, "Yeah, I'm super into Towns and Brown." I was like, "What? This is going
Brown." I was like, "What? This is going to be the best interview ever."
to be the best interview ever." >> Well, yeah. I mentioned I really enjoyed
>> Well, yeah. I mentioned I really enjoyed your I call it your Bfield Brown
your I call it your Bfield Brown special. I don't know if that's what you
special. I don't know if that's what you >> I'll take it. Yeah. It was called the
>> I'll take it. Yeah. It was called the bound by Phil Brown special. Yeah.
egotistical um and thought I can go anywhere I like
um and thought I can go anywhere I like and look at anything and uh I started
and look at anything and uh I started making direct connections instead of
making direct connections instead of jumping through various IP addresses. So
jumping through various IP addresses. So I was making direct connections to you
I was making direct connections to you know the target and I was using like
know the target and I was using like free AOL signup CDs.
free AOL signup CDs. So I wasn't being at all you like a
So I wasn't being at all you like a professional hacker. I was just yeah I
professional hacker. I was just yeah I thought I could just do it. I thought,
thought I could just do it. I thought, "Ah, these guys don't even know don't
"Ah, these guys don't even know don't even have passwords. They won't even
even have passwords. They won't even know I've been here." Uh, but yeah,
know I've been here." Uh, but yeah, eventually um
eventually um obviously when that guy right clicked
obviously when that guy right clicked the LAN icon and disconnected me, that
the LAN icon and disconnected me, that was NAZA.
was NAZA. And they reported to BT, British
And they reported to BT, British Telecom, which is my internet service
Telecom, which is my internet service provider at the time, and said, "Who's
provider at the time, and said, "Who's this IP at this time?" And they said,
this IP at this time?" And they said, "Oh, it's uh in fact, they didn't have
"Oh, it's uh in fact, they didn't have my name at first. I don't know if my
my name at first. I don't know if my internet account was in my girlfriend's
internet account was in my girlfriend's name or if we were using her aunt's
name or if we were using her aunt's internet or something, but the horrible
internet or something, but the horrible thing was when they came with the
thing was when they came with the National High Crime, they came to arrest
National High Crime, they came to arrest me. The warrant was for the whole house
me. The warrant was for the whole house >> and they came early in the morning,
>> and they came early in the morning, arrested me, my girlfriend, my
arrested me, my girlfriend, my girlfriend's aunt's daughter, who was
girlfriend's aunt's daughter, who was only like 12 or something at the time.
only like 12 or something at the time. So, it's quite a horrible experience.
So, it's quite a horrible experience. Extended family and all my fault.
Extended family and all my fault. And uh
And uh >> why do they arrest a 12-year-old?
>> why do they arrest a 12-year-old? >> Uh well, just a question. Sure.
>> Uh well, just a question. Sure. >> Not not arrest on the detained jail.
>> Not not arrest on the detained jail. Yeah.
Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> That's still gh it must have been
>> That's still gh it must have been traumatic for him.
traumatic for him. >> Yeah. Cuz they didn't know who the
>> Yeah. Cuz they didn't know who the person was. They knew it was someone at
person was. They knew it was someone at that address.
that address. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And um and unfortunately Yeah. My
>> And um and unfortunately Yeah. My ex-girlfriend's cousin, he he was quite
ex-girlfriend's cousin, he he was quite um antoritarian. He was quite
um antoritarian. He was quite alternative. They I think they thought
alternative. They I think they thought it was him. Oh, it must be him. He's got
it was him. Oh, it must be him. He's got purple hair. He must be the guy.
purple hair. He must be the guy. >> Oh. So yeah, I'm laughing now, but it's
>> Oh. So yeah, I'm laughing now, but it's horrible because it affected so many
horrible because it affected so many other people, you know, my stupid
other people, you know, my stupid curiosity. But did James mentioned
curiosity. But did James mentioned something about guys looking over you at
something about guys looking over you at your bed or something like like at night
your bed or something like like at night or something?
or something? >> Oh, no. That's probably when I was
>> Oh, no. That's probably when I was arrested cuz I was arrested in my sleep.
arrested cuz I was arrested in my sleep. >> Wait, so so you were arrested in your
>> Wait, so so you were arrested in your sleep?
sleep? >> Yeah, the National High-Tech Crime Unit.
>> Yeah, the National High-Tech Crime Unit. I I'd been up all night playing Galactic
I I'd been up all night playing Galactic Civilizations 4 was some big space game
Civilizations 4 was some big space game and um and probably smoking still as
and um and probably smoking still as well and gone to bed late so I was
well and gone to bed late so I was asleep at 8:00 in the morning. My
asleep at 8:00 in the morning. My girlfriend was getting ready to go to
girlfriend was getting ready to go to work. Knock knock knock. She's in a
work. Knock knock knock. She's in a dressing gown. They're patting her down
dressing gown. They're patting her down and pushing her into her room. Then they
and pushing her into her room. Then they come into my room. I'm in bed and I've
come into my room. I'm in bed and I've got this guy McKinnon. I'm Jeff Donsson
got this guy McKinnon. I'm Jeff Donsson from the National High-Tech Crime Unit.
from the National High-Tech Crime Unit. You're under arrest for computer misuse.
You're under arrest for computer misuse. So it's Yeah.
So it's Yeah. And then from from that point onwards,
And then from from that point onwards, the UK was like, okay, with more of kind
the UK was like, okay, with more of kind of a slap on the wrist sort of thing.
of a slap on the wrist sort of thing. And then it was the US that was like,
And then it was the US that was like, no, we need to extradite him now. And
no, we need to extradite him now. And then what you mentioned, they changed
then what you mentioned, they changed the extradition laws to make it this
the extradition laws to make it this sort of blanket thing that applied to
sort of blanket thing that applied to you.
you. >> Yeah, definitely. So, uh, when I was
>> Yeah, definitely. So, uh, when I was first arrested, um, the National
first arrested, um, the National High-Tech Crime Unit, who were the
High-Tech Crime Unit, who were the arresting body, said to me,
arresting body, said to me, >> "You'll do six months inside, maybe
>> "You'll do six months inside, maybe community service, maybe no jail time."
community service, maybe no jail time." Uh, cuz under UK law, all I did was
Uh, cuz under UK law, all I did was unauthorized access. You know, I didn't
unauthorized access. You know, I didn't break anything or steal anything or make
break anything or steal anything or make money or anything like that. And um but
money or anything like that. And um but then these officers went to America to
then these officers went to America to OI
OI and I must say Office of Naval
and I must say Office of Naval Intelligence because there's another OI
Intelligence because there's another OI there's an intelligence is the I think
there's an intelligence is the I think investigation or something but
investigation or something but >> I don't know.
>> I don't know. >> Yeah. And um when they came back, they
>> Yeah. And um when they came back, they had a very heavy tone, a completely
had a very heavy tone, a completely different tone about they were very
different tone about they were very impressed by meeting with the Todd Brass
impressed by meeting with the Todd Brass in Washington.
in Washington. And um yeah, oh, they say, "Oh, this guy
And um yeah, oh, they say, "Oh, this guy caused $5,000 of damage on every PC he
caused $5,000 of damage on every PC he was on, you know, which is just stupid."
was on, you know, which is just stupid." >> How do you damage the hardware if you
>> How do you damage the hardware if you just do this like software hack that
just do this like software hack that we're calling a hack, but you're using
we're calling a hack, but you're using like offtheshelf stuff from It's like PC
like offtheshelf stuff from It's like PC Anywhere.
Anywhere. >> Yeah. But I think what they call damage
>> Yeah. But I think what they call damage is the time it took them to take them
is the time it took them to take them offline. So the machines are unusable
offline. So the machines are unusable for a while, investigate them. So it's,
for a while, investigate them. So it's, you know,
you know, >> you know what I feels like kind of white
>> you know what I feels like kind of white hack hacking to me cuz you didn't
hack hacking to me cuz you didn't actually end up using any of the files
actually end up using any of the files in a way to hurt the US or their advant
in a way to hurt the US or their advant like again you can say what you will
like again you can say what you will about Snowden or Desand or any of these
about Snowden or Desand or any of these guys. like there's nothing you did to
guys. like there's nothing you did to like knock the US down a leg as far as
like knock the US down a leg as far as their tactical ability to like you know
their tactical ability to like you know do things. So it's like almost like a
do things. So it's like almost like a white hat hack because the costs they
white hat hack because the costs they incurred to take the stuff down and
incurred to take the stuff down and reset them they would have needed to do
reset them they would have needed to do anyways. That would have been what if
anyways. That would have been what if like a malicious person had like you
like a malicious person had like you know penetrated all these
know penetrated all these >> servers state actor or
>> servers state actor or >> That's what I'm saying.
>> That's what I'm saying. >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> So they're actually extremely lucky that
>> So they're actually extremely lucky that you did $5,000. Where are you buying
you did $5,000. Where are you buying your PCs from?
your PCs from? >> No, they should I mean you literally
>> No, they should I mean you literally white hat hackers get paid. So like I
white hat hackers get paid. So like I think I think they should pay you.
think I think they should pay you. >> All right.
>> All right. >> I'm just Please send the email.
>> I'm just Please send the email. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm serious.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm serious. It's like you literally you didn't do
It's like you literally you didn't do anything showing mal intent once you got
anything showing mal intent once you got the info. They got the info back and
the info. They got the info back and then they reset ideally their computer
then they reset ideally their computer networking and architecture in a way
networking and architecture in a way that you know these sort of fishing
that you know these sort of fishing attacks couldn't be done. These are
attacks couldn't be done. These are basic things that you're using.
basic things that you're using. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So I just like I I think it's like
>> So I just like I I think it's like insecure. It almost sounds like somebody
insecure. It almost sounds like somebody in in in like middling bureaucracy who's
in in in like middling bureaucracy who's trying to cover their ass like this took
trying to cover their ass like this took us all this. Well, you should have done
us all this. Well, you should have done it before. Yeah. What are you doing?
it before. Yeah. What are you doing? You're you're not doing your job.
You're you're not doing your job. >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> If it was some super sophisticated
>> If it was some super sophisticated quantum error correction that you had
quantum error correction that you had figured out in 2000, that would be one
figured out in 2000, that would be one thing. That would be like, okay. And
thing. That would be like, okay. And then you used it in this sort of
then you used it in this sort of detrimental way to American national
detrimental way to American national security.
security. >> Decrypted NSA.
>> Decrypted NSA. >> Yeah. But otherwise, I don't know, man.
>> Yeah. But otherwise, I don't know, man. That feels like a kind of crazy. Okay.
That feels like a kind of crazy. Okay. So then what happens to the extradition
So then what happens to the extradition laws?
laws? >> Oh man. So yeah, the original
>> Oh man. So yeah, the original extradition law, which I think was 1989.
extradition law, which I think was 1989. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Um was a good basic law. We accuse this
>> Um was a good basic law. We accuse this British citizen of having committed a
British citizen of having committed a crime in or against America. We have
crime in or against America. We have this evidence and it's a crime over here
this evidence and it's a crime over here and it's a crime over there. So we
and it's a crime over there. So we should have him in America to stand
should have him in America to stand trial. Totally fair, totally reasonable.
trial. Totally fair, totally reasonable. Um,
Um, but then I mean this is the weird thing
but then I mean this is the weird thing in law. Computer crime is a weird thing.
in law. Computer crime is a weird thing. It's a gray area because it's not
It's a gray area because it's not physical. Where where's your bum at the
physical. Where where's your bum at the seat when you commit the crime? Lots of
seat when you commit the crime? Lots of like questions that are legally
like questions that are legally intransigent, you know, like how do you
intransigent, you know, like how do you place this? Um,
place this? Um, so what happened was I was arrested in
so what happened was I was arrested in 2002
2002 and in March and then I was requested by
and in March and then I was requested by the the NHTCU went to visit the DOJ in
the the NHTCU went to visit the DOJ in August. Then they came back. Then they
August. Then they came back. Then they reintered me in November 2002 and that's
reintered me in November 2002 and that's when their tone had changed. Very
when their tone had changed. Very serious. You're accused of harming
serious. You're accused of harming military systems. Didn't learn. Could be
military systems. Didn't learn. Could be years in prison. And that's when, you
years in prison. And that's when, you know, things really got serious for me.
know, things really got serious for me. I thought, my god, this is just blown
I thought, my god, this is just blown out of all proportion.
out of all proportion. Um, but we were protected by the
Um, but we were protected by the extradition law because there had to be
extradition law because there had to be evidence of mal intent, etc. And I I
evidence of mal intent, etc. And I I when I did my police interview, I
when I did my police interview, I completely admitted to what I'd done cuz
completely admitted to what I'd done cuz it was all on the hard drive, you know.
it was all on the hard drive, you know. I said, "Yeah, it's all on the hard
I said, "Yeah, it's all on the hard drive." I went there and I got this
drive." I went there and I got this document, went to another place, got
document, went to another place, got other documents. So, I was open about
other documents. So, I was open about it, figuring a six months like they told
it, figuring a six months like they told me I'll be fine. And they said community
me I'll be fine. And they said community service, I can do both. I'll be fine.
service, I can do both. I'll be fine. Although I wouldn't have lied 6 months
Although I wouldn't have lied 6 months in prison. But um when it came to
in prison. But um when it came to November and then they threatened
November and then they threatened extradition then on paper it was 70
extradition then on paper it was 70 years in jail. 70 years. It was like 10
years in jail. 70 years. It was like 10 seven counts 10 years per count. And I
seven counts 10 years per count. And I just I just went crazy. I thought this
just I just went crazy. I thought this is absolutely mad. What are we going to
is absolutely mad. What are we going to do?
do? And um there was a lot of um like the
And um there was a lot of um like the UFO community in America wanted me to
UFO community in America wanted me to stand trial in America. It's like a
stand trial in America. It's like a martr,
martr, >> right?
>> right? >> Yes. It'll be great. He'll come over.
>> Yes. It'll be great. He'll come over. He'll they'll open all the secrets and
He'll they'll open all the secrets and he'll make it after. But what America
he'll make it after. But what America actually said, the DOJ said that I'd be
actually said, the DOJ said that I'd be tried under military order number one,
tried under military order number one, which is Guantanamo status. Totally
which is Guantanamo status. Totally secret. No media interview, no media
secret. No media interview, no media cover, no family visits,
cover, no family visits, >> you know, me in an orange suit with my
>> you know, me in an orange suit with my red hair.
red hair. >> Joking, sorry. But yes, it went really
>> Joking, sorry. But yes, it went really scary. Like really scary, like over the
scary. Like really scary, like over the top, like well, you know, CF Kfka
top, like well, you know, CF Kfka Kfka-esque.
Kfka-esque. >> Yeah, many people said,
>> Yeah, many people said, >> "Damn, you must have been uh you must
>> "Damn, you must have been uh you must have felt horrible. We must have been
have felt horrible. We must have been like the the you know world's out to get
like the the you know world's out to get me or the the most uh powerful nation in
me or the the most uh powerful nation in the world uh you know is out to get me
the world uh you know is out to get me and that that must be a scary feeling.
and that that must be a scary feeling. >> Yeah. Well, it started in late 2002
>> Yeah. Well, it started in late 2002 and by 2008 cuz we lost so many court
and by 2008 cuz we lost so many court cases and hearings. I'd given up all
cases and hearings. I'd given up all hope and I thought there's no way I'm
hope and I thought there's no way I'm going to give my life to a
going to give my life to a foreign jail. And I bought potassium
foreign jail. And I bought potassium chloride, one of the three chemicals in
chloride, one of the three chemicals in the lethal injection. And I thought if I
the lethal injection. And I thought if I get that decision, I'm just gonna would
get that decision, I'm just gonna would not inject it. I I looked up the amount
not inject it. I I looked up the amount how many grams per kilogram of body
how many grams per kilogram of body weight and I was just going to swallow
weight and I was just going to swallow it and have a heart attack and die.
it and have a heart attack and die. >> Since I came into office, the sole issue
>> Since I came into office, the sole issue on which I have been required to make a
on which I have been required to make a decision is whether Mr. McKinnon's
decision is whether Mr. McKinnon's extradition to the United States would
extradition to the United States would breach his human rights.
breach his human rights. After careful consideration of all of
After careful consideration of all of the relevant material, I have concluded
the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr. McKinnon's extradition would
that Mr. McKinnon's extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him
give rise to such a high risk of him ending his life.
>> That a decision to extradite would be incompatible with Mr. McKinnon's human
incompatible with Mr. McKinnon's human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the
rights. I have therefore withdrawn the expedition extradition order against Mr.
expedition extradition order against Mr. McKinnon.
>> That was incredible. Theresa May. So, yeah, it's heavy.
So, yeah, it's heavy. >> That's heavy, man. That's really
>> That's heavy, man. That's really intense. And uh I'm sorry it got to that
intense. And uh I'm sorry it got to that uh place cuz that's it's ridiculous. If
uh place cuz that's it's ridiculous. If you look at the fact pattern, it's just
you look at the fact pattern, it's just insane.
insane. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And again, I'm saying that some of these
>> And again, I'm saying that some of these other whistleblower cases, there are
other whistleblower cases, there are nuances to them, you know? I'm saying
nuances to them, you know? I'm saying yours I I think it's an absolute witch.
yours I I think it's an absolute witch. That's That's crazy.
That's That's crazy. >> Yeah, I agree.
>> Yeah, I agree. >> It's just crazy.
>> It's just crazy. Um
Um Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know what to
Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know what to say. I'm so sorry. I mean, that's just
say. I'm so sorry. I mean, that's just awful. I'm sorry on behalf of my
awful. I'm sorry on behalf of my country.
country. >> Well, you're not the government, Jesse,
>> Well, you're not the government, Jesse, so that's true.
so that's true. >> I don't have to forgive you.
>> I don't have to forgive you. >> Okay. Well, yeah. It's just not a good
>> Okay. Well, yeah. It's just not a good uh representation. But um
uh representation. But um >> Yeah. Well, America's a great country
>> Yeah. Well, America's a great country and the people are great. It's just um
and the people are great. It's just um there's been some very bad governance
there's been some very bad governance since World War II in my humble opinion.
since World War II in my humble opinion. >> Yeah. No.
>> Yeah. No. >> And and on this side of the pond as
>> And and on this side of the pond as well, the British as well.
well, the British as well. >> Sure. Yeah. No. Oh, and it's crazy that
>> Sure. Yeah. No. Oh, and it's crazy that you were I mean Gordon Brown, uh David
you were I mean Gordon Brown, uh David Cameron, uh uh Terresa May, all of these
Cameron, uh uh Terresa May, all of these UK prime ministers were thinking about
UK prime ministers were thinking about you. You were this really important case
you. You were this really important case because the ex you you said that the
because the ex you you said that the extradition law was changed literally
extradition law was changed literally like right after you did what you did.
like right after you did what you did. >> Yeah. This is one thing I didn't
>> Yeah. This is one thing I didn't mention. Um, we saw a draft of the new
mention. Um, we saw a draft of the new extradition treaty through our lawyers
extradition treaty through our lawyers >> and it was written a British extradition
>> and it was written a British extradition treaty with America was written in
treaty with America was written in American English which is kind of a clue
American English which is kind of a clue as to who's calling the shots
as to who's calling the shots and um, you know, American spelling in
and um, you know, American spelling in an English legal document. And also a
an English legal document. And also a lot of the phrases
lot of the phrases were almost verbatim taken from some of
were almost verbatim taken from some of my charges. So I think it's um it's not
my charges. So I think it's um it's not that there's anything special about me,
that there's anything special about me, but it was what I did. And at that time
but it was what I did. And at that time the
the American DoD systems were getting like
American DoD systems were getting like 250,000 attacks,
250,000 attacks, >> hacking attacks at the time. If you read
>> hacking attacks at the time. If you read the General Accounting Office documents
the General Accounting Office documents at the time and still to this day.
at the time and still to this day. So I think they needed to do something
So I think they needed to do something and they needed to increase the
and they needed to increase the punishment and they needed a poster boy.
punishment and they needed a poster boy. >> So timing is everything, isn't it?
>> So timing is everything, isn't it? Yeah, because there had been big hackers
Yeah, because there had been big hackers before you, right? Like what's the name
before you, right? Like what's the name of the guy who hacked into the DOE,
of the guy who hacked into the DOE, Department of Energy and like Atomic
Department of Energy and like Atomic Labs?
Labs? >> Matthew Beavenon.
>> Matthew Beavenon. >> Matthew Beavenon.
>> Matthew Beavenon. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And so this was like an actual hack on
>> And so this was like an actual hack on really sensitive stuff by kind of a more
really sensitive stuff by kind of a more professional hacker. Is that safe to
professional hacker. Is that safe to say? Or or also kind of was like a
say? Or or also kind of was like a vigilante.
vigilante. >> Yeah. No, I think he was more skilled
>> Yeah. No, I think he was more skilled than I was. He didn't just do blank
than I was. He didn't just do blank password hacking. he found, you know,
password hacking. he found, you know, weaknesses in protocols and stuff, so he
weaknesses in protocols and stuff, so he was more advanced,
was more advanced, >> but um
>> but um and yeah, and he was earlier. He was in
and yeah, and he was earlier. He was in the ' 90s
the ' 90s >> and then what happened to him?
>> and then what happened to him? >> He was basically
>> He was basically >> slap on the wrist.
>> slap on the wrist. >> He did go through some Don't get
>> He did go through some Don't get me wrong, Matthew, if you're listening.
me wrong, Matthew, if you're listening. Um but yeah, he didn't face a long-term.
Um but yeah, he didn't face a long-term. >> There were a few of these cases before
>> There were a few of these cases before you where I think in a certain case it
you where I think in a certain case it was like a 100,000 computers ended up
was like a 100,000 computers ended up with malware. You know who's
with malware. You know who's >> Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, if you want to
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, if you want to know who's the most successful hacker,
know who's the most successful hacker, it's not a person, it's a virus. Yeah.
it's not a person, it's a virus. Yeah. Like the love love what's it? I can't
Like the love love what's it? I can't remember the name.
remember the name. >> But I'm talking about specifically
>> But I'm talking about specifically there's precedent for UKbased hackers
there's precedent for UKbased hackers hacking into US systems, which neither
hacking into US systems, which neither of us are suggesting anyone do. You
of us are suggesting anyone do. You know, it's not don't hack into, you
know, it's not don't hack into, you know, national security stuff. You know,
know, national security stuff. You know, >> this is this is a a lesson. But, uh, in
>> this is this is a a lesson. But, uh, in in in those cases, they did worse stuff
in in those cases, they did worse stuff than you.
than you. >> Yeah. uh and and they just got slaps on
>> Yeah. uh and and they just got slaps on the wrist and then you're this like UFO
the wrist and then you're this like UFO interested, you know, you want to know
interested, you know, you want to know if there's like free energy or whatever,
if there's like free energy or whatever, like for your for your own edification.
like for your for your own edification. Yeah.
Yeah. >> Like not because you want to do some
>> Like not because you want to do some like, you know, terrorist thing or like
like, you know, terrorist thing or like undermine, you know, American supremacy
undermine, you know, American supremacy in any way or whatever and like they
in any way or whatever and like they just come after you.
just come after you. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And so they change the
>> And so they change the >> shows you
>> shows you >> Yeah. What's what's important to them?
>> Yeah. What's what's important to them? Is it someone like cleverly stealing
Is it someone like cleverly stealing money in a cyber Ford way, which a lot
money in a cyber Ford way, which a lot of people have done,
of people have done, >> or is it some is it UFO truth? Is it?
>> or is it some is it UFO truth? Is it? >> Yeah. Well, no. It it might show that
>> Yeah. Well, no. It it might show that that actually, you know, hit a trigger
that actually, you know, hit a trigger point like that the like cigar- shaped
point like that the like cigar- shaped tic tac object, you know, flying in deep
tic tac object, you know, flying in deep space, you know, that might be this
space, you know, that might be this really sensitive thing that they just
really sensitive thing that they just really don't want to talk about. Then
really don't want to talk about. Then the n the space supply chain thing. I
the n the space supply chain thing. I could see that. You know, they don't
could see that. You know, they don't want to talk about that either.
want to talk about that either. >> But as a counterpoint to that, that
>> But as a counterpoint to that, that information was already out. Don's
information was already out. Don's information was out. So it's kind of if
information was out. So it's kind of if it's already out, why go so heavy on
it's already out, why go so heavy on this guy?
this guy? >> As as a counterpoint to that, like
>> As as a counterpoint to that, like there's proof that you got into these
there's proof that you got into these sites. Donna here, it's always going to
sites. Donna here, it's always going to be this kind of like single sample size
be this kind of like single sample size NF1 story told and you can always be
NF1 story told and you can always be like that person was crazy. But like in
like that person was crazy. But like in your case, like they have like a, you
your case, like they have like a, you know, there's a live arrest warrant out
know, there's a live arrest warrant out on you now, right? You can't go to the
on you now, right? You can't go to the US now.
US now. >> I'm on the Inter pole red list.
>> I'm on the Inter pole red list. >> You're on the Inter pole red list.
>> You're on the Inter pole red list. That's crazy.
That's crazy. I don't even think I knew that.
I don't even think I knew that. >> Hopefully I'm good.
>> Hopefully I'm good. But um yeah, like like you know with
But um yeah, like like you know with with I think in your case there's no
with I think in your case there's no arguing with the fact that you got into
arguing with the fact that you got into these sensitive sites. So, the fact that
these sensitive sites. So, the fact that you're saying you saw a tic tac, you
you're saying you saw a tic tac, you know, in deep space but above Earth and
know, in deep space but above Earth and then you saw these non-aterrestrial
then you saw these non-aterrestrial maybe 40 some odd officers like,
maybe 40 some odd officers like, >> you know, that's that's like pretty
>> you know, that's that's like pretty that's like a little deeper, you know?
that's like a little deeper, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> But like to the point that like you
>> But like to the point that like you shouldn't be blamed. It's like you
shouldn't be blamed. It's like you didn't sign something. You didn't you
didn't sign something. You didn't you didn't like sign up to like you weren't
didn't like sign up to like you weren't like working at one of these places. You
like working at one of these places. You were like high in your
were like high in your >> I'm trying to think how girlfriend's
>> I'm trying to think how girlfriend's managed that if I was intel. I was like,
managed that if I was intel. I was like, "How how do we manage this guy?" And
"How how do we manage this guy?" And then I think they were probably quite
then I think they were probably quite happy when I got diagnosed with Asperers
happy when I got diagnosed with Asperers in 2008, 2009.
in 2008, 2009. >> Okay, he's mentally ill. He's fine then.
>> Okay, he's mentally ill. He's fine then. >> Right. Right. Right.
>> Right. Right. Right. >> Like a putaway. I would put him in the
>> Like a putaway. I would put him in the mentally ill drawer.
mentally ill drawer. >> Do you ever think like the the chip is
>> Do you ever think like the the chip is somehow either monitoring you you A or B
somehow either monitoring you you A or B it's like feeding you ideas or anything?
it's like feeding you ideas or anything? >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> You start glitching right now. Yeah.
>> You start glitching right now. Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Do you ever think it has some sort of I
>> Do you ever think it has some sort of I don't know.
don't know. >> Uh, no. My mind feels the same as it
>> Uh, no. My mind feels the same as it always has. But I do want to do some
always has. But I do want to do some further scanning with my more modern up
further scanning with my more modern up today.
today. >> You should. Yeah.
>> You should. Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So interesting.
>> So interesting. >> I wish Dr. What was his name? The guy
>> I wish Dr. What was his name? The guy that used to scan implants. He's dead
that used to scan implants. He's dead now.
now. >> Roger Lear.
>> Roger Lear. >> Roger Lear. Yeah.
>> Roger Lear. Yeah. >> I wish he was around and would could
>> I wish he was around and would could come to the UK.
come to the UK. >> Yeah. He'd be the perfect guy.
>> Yeah. He'd be the perfect guy. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I might know of somebody else who can
>> I might know of somebody else who can help you out. So
help you out. So >> later.
>> later. >> Yeah. Exactly.
>> Yeah. Exactly. >> Explain what's going on quickly. I can't
>> Explain what's going on quickly. I can't turn my phone off here. Look.
turn my phone off here. Look. >> Look.
>> Look. >> Yeah. Let's document all of this. You
>> Yeah. Let's document all of this. You can see my finger is on the power button
can see my finger is on the power button and both This is like a hard reset. My
and both This is like a hard reset. My finger is on the uh power button.
finger is on the uh power button. >> Missing this
>> Missing this >> and volume up and volume down at the
>> and volume up and volume down at the same time.
same time. >> And nothing.
>> And nothing. >> Nothing.
>> Nothing. >> That's never happened before.
>> That's never happened before. >> Absolutely. It's never happened before.
>> Absolutely. It's never happened before. It's insane.
It's insane. >> But you're with Gary McKinnon. And I'm
>> But you're with Gary McKinnon. And I'm with Gary McKinnon who is has a live
with Gary McKinnon who is has a live arrest
arrest >> famously said I didn't do it.
>> famously said I didn't do it. >> This was the you know everything I'd
>> This was the you know everything I'd hoped it would be this conversation. It
hoped it would be this conversation. It was so fun and uh I really hope you pull
was so fun and uh I really hope you pull off this Bifield Brown effect. I think
off this Bifield Brown effect. I think it would be this beautiful
it would be this beautiful >> uh kind of I don't know vindication. You
>> uh kind of I don't know vindication. You know I'm not saying what you did was
know I'm not saying what you did was fine but I think you were completely
fine but I think you were completely persecuted in this horrible way. And uh
persecuted in this horrible way. And uh I love the fact that by the way the UK
I love the fact that by the way the UK rallied behind you and you ended up you
rallied behind you and you ended up you know singing with uh you know David
know singing with uh you know David Gilmore you know the lead singer the
Gilmore you know the lead singer the Pink Floyd you know and like you have
Pink Floyd you know and like you have all these people you're like kind of
all these people you're like kind of this people's champion
this people's champion >> Crosby Stills and Nash man one of my
>> Crosby Stills and Nash man one of my favorite hippie bands from when I was
favorite hippie bands from when I was young.
young. >> Wait what did Crosby Stills and Nash
>> Wait what did Crosby Stills and Nash were like rallying behind you as well?
were like rallying behind you as well? >> Yeah they did um they just like
>> Yeah they did um they just like mentioned me in one song at one of their
mentioned me in one song at one of their gigs but you know thousands of people.
gigs but you know thousands of people. >> Oh I didn't know that.
>> Oh I didn't know that. >> Yeah. So cool. You seeing all these
>> Yeah. So cool. You seeing all these bands I'd love when I was little. I was
bands I'd love when I was little. I was like, "God, it was And it was crazy
like, "God, it was And it was crazy because you're really depressed, but
because you're really depressed, but you're seeing all your musical heroes."
you're seeing all your musical heroes." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Vouching for you. Like,
>> Vouching for you. Like, >> but you're also, didn't you, you sang
>> but you're also, didn't you, you sang with David Gilmore?
with David Gilmore? >> Yeah. And uh Chrissy Hind and Bob
>> Yeah. And uh Chrissy Hind and Bob Gildoff, but I didn't actually only sang
Gildoff, but I didn't actually only sang in the same studio at the same time with
in the same studio at the same time with Chrissy Hind. So, I didn't get to meet
Chrissy Hind. So, I didn't get to meet David Gilmore or Bob Gildoff. Okay.
David Gilmore or Bob Gildoff. Okay. Unfortunately.
Unfortunately. >> Well, wild. Thank you, Theresa May, for
>> Well, wild. Thank you, Theresa May, for making the right decision and uh you
making the right decision and uh you know, let letting you go and uh I think
know, let letting you go and uh I think the US should drop their arrest warrant
the US should drop their arrest warrant and uh
and uh >> I think so, too. That I could go on
>> I think so, too. That I could go on holiday.
holiday. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you can go and you know,
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, you can go and you know, go on a nice vacation and uh yeah,
go on a nice vacation and uh yeah, hopefully next time I see you, it's in
hopefully next time I see you, it's in the States and uh
the States and uh >> Yeah, that'd be fantastic.
>> Yeah, that'd be fantastic. >> It'd be great.
>> It'd be great. >> Thanks for a great interview, man.
>> Thanks for a great interview, man. >> Absolutely, Gary. No, it was an honor.
>> Absolutely, Gary. No, it was an honor. It was a lot of fun and uh yeah,
It was a lot of fun and uh yeah, hopefully, you know, I think we made a
hopefully, you know, I think we made a little bit of progress here, too, in
little bit of progress here, too, in terms of piecing some things together.
terms of piecing some things together. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Logistics,
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Logistics, supply chain.
supply chain. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly. >> Sweet. All right,
>> Alchemist. Did you enjoy that? If you want the full picture, head over to the
want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy magazine we just
American Alchemy magazine we just launched on Substack. That's where we
launched on Substack. That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics
deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into
that we don't have time to fit into every video with weekly articles
every video with weekly articles exploring all of the strange, forgotten,
exploring all of the strange, forgotten, and conspiratorial corners of space,
and conspiratorial corners of space, history, and high weirdness. So, join up
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today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am including the full link
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