This content explores the identity of the "Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament, arguing that this figure is a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus Christ, demonstrating a complex, divine nature that foreshadows the Trinity and Jesus's role in salvation.
Mind Map
انقر للتوسيع
انقر لاستعراض خريطة الذهن التفاعلية الكاملة
in our continued study of Jesus in the
Old Testament we've come to the topic
that I've been very excited to talk
about which is the angel of the Lord we
get this character throughout the Old
Testament where multiple times he shows
up and the question is you read the
details about him you go who is this
like is this an angel or is this Yahweh
is this God who is this person exactly
so what we're gonna do I'll give you the
format for how I'm gonna cover this
hopefully we'll get it all done tonight
but I'm not gonna promise that my plan
is this first we'll talk about who the
angel of the Lord is by looking you know
systematically through those passages
multiple appearances of this particular
interesting character in the Old
Testament then I want to answer the
question even if I identify this as
Yahweh as God why do I say it's Jesus
why what justification would I have for
suggesting that this angel of the Lord
is actually Jesus and then I want to
start to look into objections and that
might be where we run out of time so if
we run out we'll pick up next time at
the exact same spot but I want to look
at objections because I think it's
really important what I what I see in
the teaching as I was researching for
this is people teach about how who the
angel of the Lord is from like they're
kind of Christians teaching to the
Christian audience but then there's the
nontrinitarian groups who teach about
the angel of the Lord and they love
nothing more than to harp on that issue
and they have lots of videos online but
we never see the two sides interacting
and so I would like to bring those
objections up after we've walked through
all the texts and show why I think that
those objections don't stand it's
important that we cover them though
because at first they sound very
impressive but then you think about them
a little bit and and I think it might
help so our main goal as we look at
these different passages we're starting
in Genesis 16 verse 7 the main goal is
just understanding who is this person so
I'm gonna I'm gonna skip over you know
things like details about the story that
are unrelated to identifying who this
person is I'll skip over a lot of that
stuff so it sort of we're digging in for
a specific purpose so here we are in
Genesis 16 verse 7 Hagar is running away
from Sarai Hagar is pregnant at Sarah's
request Hagar and Abraham or Abram sleep
together then they produce and she
becomes his konkey
this kind of weird stuff goes on and of
course tension arises when she becomes
pregnant despises Sarah and she runs
away so verse 7 the angel of the Lord
and there's the first time we get that
that phrase coming up in the Bible this
is the very first instance of it the
angel of the Lord found her by a spring
of water in the wilderness the spring on
the way - sure and he said Hagar servant
of Sarai where have you come from
and where are you going she said I'm
fleeing from my mistress Sarah the angel
of the Lord said to her return to your
mistress and submit to her now let's
just say this so far the identity of
this particular individuals unknown
right he's called the angel of the Lord
and that's probably in capitals in your
in your Bible there that's Yahweh this
is God's actual name so right so this is
the angel of Yahweh and so we don't know
who he is just yet but let's keep
reading verse 10 the angels the Lord
also said to her I will surely multiply
your offspring so that they cannot be
numbered for multitude and now we go huh
you're gonna multiply her offspring
you're the angel of the Lord and you're
the one doing the multiplying this
sounds kind of like what God said to
Abraham I will multiply your offspring
oh that's a Jew but the angel of the
Lord here is claiming that he'll be the
one to multiply the offspring that's
just interesting verse 11 and the angel
of the Lord said to her behold you are
pregnant and shall bear a son you shall
call his name Ishmael because the Lord
has listens to your affliction okay well
in verse 9 the implication is for that
verse 10 the implication was this angel
of Lord is actually Yahweh because he's
the one doing the multiplying that
language seems to speak of God and his
promise to Abraham but then we get to
verse 11 and the angel of Yahweh speaks
about Yahweh the Lord has heard your
affliction so he always a different
person verse 12 he shall be a wild
donkey of a man his hand against
everyone and everyone's hand against him
he shall dwell over against all his
kinsmen so she called the name of the
Lord who spoke to her you are a God of
seeing for she said truly here I have I
seen him sue me truly here I have seen
him who looks after me forgive me I
still quote the New King James on
instantly without thinking about Paula
pointed out the other day she's like you
keep quoting the New King James even
though you're reading the ESV it's not
on purpose so what did she say in verse
13 that was in my mind just blows my
mind she called the name of the Lord who
spoke to her
Yahweh who spoke to her you are a God of
seeing and then she said to make in case
it couldn't be more clear truly here I
have seen him who looks after me who is
God clearly in the text so we have this
individual who comes he's the angel of
the Lord in this very first instance
occurrence of this phrase the angel of
the Lord he shows up he speaks on behalf
of Yahweh he talks as though he is
Yahweh he says I will multiply your
descendants yet he talks about Yahweh
like you always somebody else that's
interesting huh and then she says he was
Yahweh and I saw him and he spoke to me
so she identifies him as Yahweh in fact
that phrase who spoke to her this is
some people would say well this is
obviously not Yahweh who's you know the
angel spoke and Yahweh also spoke but in
verse 8 9 10 11 and then finally 13 the
the person speaking is the angel of the
Lord so clearly this is the angel to
Lord who is it who's being spoken of
here yes okay so that's that's the first
instance first occurrence of the angel
is the Lord and you see what we're gonna
do we're gonna put the pieces together
we'll read the account and go who could
this person be so it's a really
interesting kind of I will study when
you think about it and it really boils
down to the glory of Jesus Christ at the
end of the story when you when you
really put it all together so let's look
at Genesis 21 we have another instance
where we get the angel of the Lord in
fact specifically it's the angel of God
and sometimes this individual is called
the angel of the Lord sometimes he's
called the angel of God so Genesis 21
verse 17 it says and God heard the voice
of the boy and the angel of God called
to Hagar from heaven and said to her so
we're back to Hagar again later on
Ishmael's actually a child now and here
God heard the voice of the boy and the
angel of God called to Hagar from heaven
and said to her what troubles you Hagar
fear not for God has heard the voice of
the boy where he is up lift up the boy
and hold him fast with your hand i4i me
I will make him into a great nation now
who's who's speaking here it says God
heard the voice and the angel of God
calls to Hagar that's in verse 11 for 17
then in verse 18 continuing to speak
it's the angel of God who's speaking and
he says again I will make him into a
great nation so I think of this is
interesting this once again we're we're
getting this sort of muddying of the
waters who's who's speaking ears as the
angel orders it's the Lord and I think
and this is what I'm gonna say
throughout that as we look at these
different texts the muddying the
confusion is intentional maybe sometimes
when the Bible makes things unclear it's
unclear on purpose because that's the
point so let's let's keep reading so
we'll get to Abraham offering Isaac and
that's in Genesis 22
Genesis 22 verse 1 of Genesis 22 it says
after these things God tested Abraham
and said to him Abraham and he said Here
I am he said take your son your only son
Isaac whom you love and go to the land
of Moriah and offer him there as a burnt
offering on one of the mountains of
which I shall tell you
so who speaks to Abraham God clearly God
in this text it's God speaking to
Abraham and he's going to be offering
his son and who do you think is it is it
implied who will Abraham offer his son
to not Baal hey God he's gonna offer his
son to God that's from God's own command
so this is clearly God but then let's
keep reading verse 13 as we keep I'm
sorry verse 10 as we keep going through
Genesis 22
so then Abraham reached out his hand and
took the knife to slaughter his son but
the angel of the Lord and now we get
this this individual again called to him
from heaven and said Abraham Abraham and
he said Here I am and notice even the
the way he calls his identical to the
way God called earlier God called and he
says Abraham and Abraham says Here I am so
so
the Angels the Lord calls him from
heaven says Abraham Abraham he said Here
I am he said do not lay your hand on the
boy or do anything to him for now I know
that you fear God okay so at this point
in the text I'm going okay this angels
Lord's not God because he goes don't
touch him cuz I know you fear God seeing
that you have not withheld your son your
only son from me wait wait a minute in
verse one God not the angel God is the
one who tells Abraham sacrifice your son
obviously it's gonna be to God then the
angel of the Lord shows up and he says I
know you fear God because you haven't
withheld your son from me I think it's
an intentional puzzle
I think it's an intentional puzzle let's
keep in mind that the scripture tells us
that in Jesus there is a mystery revealed
revealed
there is a question that's answered in
the identity of Jesus Christ as we see
him in the New Testament and that I
think connects to how we see Jesus in
the Old Testament we see oftentimes the
question marks it's like the old the old
traditional Church answer is Jesus to
everything well in some cases it really
is and in this sense we see Jesus in the
let's keep reading in verse 13 let's
this Lacan says and Abraham lifted up
his eyes and looked and behold behind
him was a ram caught in a thicket by his
thorn his horns excuse me and Abraham
went and took the RAM and offered it up
as a burnt offering instead of his son
so Abraham called the name of that place
the Lord will provide Jehovah Jireh or
Yahweh Jireh as it is said to this day
on the Mount of the Lord it shall be
provided and the angel of the Lord
called to Abraham a second time from
heaven and said now who's calling to
Abraham now the angel of the Lord and he
says by myself I have sworn declares the Lord
Lord
I'll keep it that's like almost normal
language for a prophet thus saith the
Lord okay so now he seems to be separate
from the Yahweh are different than
Yahweh so by myself I've sworn declares
the Lord because you've done this and if
not withheld your son your only son I
will surely bless you well who's doing
the blessing now
well now it's God right the angels
saying God will bless you and I will
surely multiply your offspring as the
stars of heaven as the sands on the
seashore and your offspring shall
possess the gate of his enemies and in
your offspring shall all the nations of
the earth be blessed because you have
obeyed my voice so I think that there's
this natural tension I mean we have the
Angels Lord saying I'm gonna do this
Abraham I will bless you he says I'm
gonna bless Ishmael as well but then
here we have him saying God says he'll
bless well what's going on here let's
look at Genesis 31 here's another
another passes Genesis chapter 31 and
while you're on your way there this
actually did puzzle ancient Israelites
and there were even those who in oh man
I may do more research on this and bring
it to you guys sometime but there are
even those who believed in sort of two
powers two different sort of it's hard
to use language to describe what they
were thinking but they were thinking
there were like two yahweh's somehow
because they were reading these texts
going how do we explain this and it
wasn't until like the second century
after Christ that they made that a
heresy in Judaism and said that's not
appropriate you can't say that sort of
thing so it's interesting as it sort of
lays the groundwork for I understanding
who Jesus is later on I think Genesis 31
verse 11 we get the angel of God again
it says then the angel of God said to me
in a dream
Jacob and I said Here I am and he said
lift up your eyes and see all the goats
that mate with the flock are striped
spotted and modeled for I have seen all
that Laban is doing to you so here we
have the angel of God and so far he's
just the angel of God you would you
would naturally not think this was God
you would just think it's the angel of
God a Messenger of God but in verse 13
he continues speaking and he says this I
am the god of Bethel he doesn't say thus
saith the Lord I am the God of Bethel he
doesn't say the Lord declares he just
says straight out let's read it again in
context right lift up your eyes and see
all the goats that mate with the flock
ur striped spotted and modeled for I've
seen all that Laban is doing to you I am
the god of Bethel where you anointed a
pillar and made a vow to me now arise go
out from this land and return to the
land of your kindred
here this to me is is even stronger than
everything we've heard so far because
the angel is a straight-up says I'm God
I'm God he just declares himself I am
the God of Bethel he doesn't say the
Lord says or anything like that
he just declares it in Genesis 28 we
actually get that story of Bethel so let
me read to you really quick what he's
referring to when he says I'm the God of
Bethel it's it's Genesis 28 12 he says
any dreamed and behold there was a
ladder set up on the earth and the top
of it reached to heaven and behold the
angels of God were ascending and
descending on it and behold the Lord
stood above it and said I am the Lord
the God of Abraham your father and the
god of Isaac the land on which you lie I
will give you I will give to you and to
your offspring so that God this angel
says I'm that God that's pretty clear I
don't know what I would do with this
except for have to acknowledge that in
some sense the angel is God it's Yahweh
but in another sense the angel the Lord
seems to speak as though Yahweh is
somehow other really interesting stuff
so that same Jacob years later he speaks
a blessing on ephraim and manasseh you
might be familiar with this these are
these are two boys and he switches his
hands over so he blesses the older
versus the younger and and it's kind of
controversial stuff going on there and
in Genesis 48 we read about it Genesis
48 15 and let's let's listen to how he
blesses them they are Joseph's sons and
so verse 15 it says any blessed Joseph
and said the God before whom my father's
Abraham and Isaac walked the God who has
been my Shepherd all my life long to
this day the angel who has redeemed me
from all evil blessed the boys that's
interesting isn't it he says God who is
this person God who is this person the
angel who is this person and then
singular blessed the boys the blessings
coming from God who is also
the angel the angel who's redeemed me
from all evil that's really interesting
now you could say well Mike God is
simply doing it through the angel like
he's just like God bless the boys and do
it through your angel the problem with
this sort of tactic is that it doesn't
let the text say what it says you have
to add words right in order to say that
you have to go God who this and this guy
who listen is the angel the context is
you have these three statements about
one being taking an action that's the
context you have to just add words to
the text the angel you know through whom
God will bring this blessing like you
have to just sort of stick it in there
it's kind of like when I'm encountering
Jehovah's Witnesses and the scripture in
John 5 it says that Jesus made himself
equal with God and they constantly add
to the text and they say well that's
just what the Pharisees thought and I'll
go well that would be convenient it
would help you with your theology but
it's not what the text actually says you
can't just add to the text you got to
let us say so the most natural reading
is an order one more time the God before
whom my father's Abraham and Isaac
walked the God who has been my Shepherd
all my life long to this day the angel
who has redeemed me from all evil bless
the boys and so I'm couple that with the
passage we just went to where the angel
of God came and said I'm the God of
Bethel so it makes sense and you can
understand why he would even put it that
way because that angel had been room
that angel had been revealed as the god
of Bethel all right
let's guess let's ask another question
at the burning bush what happened there
who appeared to Moses in the burning
bush so let's look at Exodus chapter 3
Exodus chapter 3 and we're gonna read a
and by putting all this together you can
see that there is a consistent flow of
thought this is not chicanery this is
not like you know Bible study trickery
going on this is just the text itself
and X's three it says now Moses was
keeping the flock of his father-in-law
Jethro the priest of Midian and he led
his flock to the west side of the
wilderness and came to Horeb the
mountain of God and the angel of the
Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire
out of the midst of a bush I wonder how
many of us have read this and didn't
realize the person in the bush is the
angel of the Lord he appears out of a
flame of fire or in a flame of fire out
of the midst of the bush he looked and
behold the bush was burning yet it was
not consumed and that's the thing that
caught his attention he's like how is it
it's like on fire but it's still got
green leaves like what's going on and
Moses said I will turn aside to see this
great sight why the bush is not burned
when the and by the way when you're a
shepherd out in the middle of nowhere
that's a really interesting thing to go
look at I'm yeah I think II maybe
nowadays were harder to entertain but I
feel like what is that exactly he wanted
to go check it out
I mean if you have a funny-looking
cricket you'll probably follow it around
for a little while out there I imagine
so verse four when the Lord saw that he
turned aside to see God called to him
out of the bush but who's in the bush
though the angel of the Lord who calls
to Moses out of the bush God it's God
speaking from the bush but the angel of
the Lord is in the bush let's keep
reading it says Moses Moses and he said
Here I am then he said do not come near
take your sandals off your feet for the
place on which you were standing is holy
ground and he said I am the God of your
father the God of Abraham the god of
Isaac and the God of Jacob
now this is okay for the angel of the
Lord to actually be God in some sense
because we've already got the groundwork
laid in Genesis for this concept so
Moses hid his face for he was afraid to
look at God so the only thing that we
know that he can see is the fire and the
angel Lord appears in the fire and now
it's saying that he doesn't want to look
at God and the only visible thing that
we know that he can look at is the angel
of the Lord in the fire so that the
identity of these two beings is being
merged in some sense then in verse 7
then the Lord said I have surely seen
the affliction of my people who were in
Egypt and have heard their cry because
of their taskmasters I know their
sufferings and I've come down to deliver
them and he goes on and talks about what
he's going to do I just want to point
out that it's Yahweh who speaks here
according to verse 7 and then in verse
11 but Moses said to God so he's talking
to God Who am I that I should go to
Pharaoh and bring the children of Israel
out of Egypt he said but I will be with
you God says God will be with him and
this shall be the sign for you that I
have sent you when you have brought the
people out of Egypt you shall serve God
on this mountain and now we have God
referring to God in the second person
that's interesting is that third person
third person yeah second person will be
you so you shall serve God on this
mountain then Moses said to God if I
come to the people of Israel and say to
them the god of your father's has sent
me to you and they asked what is his
name what shall you say to them what
shall I say to them God said to Moses I
am Who I am and he said say to the
people of Israel I am has sent me to you
I want to remember these things because
we're going to come back to them a
little bit later verse 16 as we keep
reading it says go and gather the elders
of Israel together and say to them the
Lord the God of your father's the God of
Abraham of Isaac and Jacob has appeared
to me question why on earth does verse 2
say the angel of the Lord appeared to
him and then down in verse 16 he's told
tell him God appeared to you with the
aims of the Lord appeared to Moses
that's the language and God appeared to
Moses that's I think pretty interesting
in Acts chapter 7 we read about Stephen
as he gives kind of this long history
lesson of Israel to the people who were
stoning him it's he's the first martyr
of the early church and he says this
about Abraham excuse me about the
burning bush passage in verse 30 of Acts
chapter 7 now when forty years had passed
passed
an angel appeared to him in the
wilderness of Mount Sinai in a flame of
fire in a bush when Moses saw it he was
amazed at the sight and as he drew near
to look there came the voice of the Lord
isn't it interesting how even the way he
says it is delicate like Stephens a way
of talking about it's like delicate like
he's trying to let the text speak so he
goes the Angels Lord appeared and he
drew near and he heard the voice of the
Lord maybe you know they're just wanting
to preserve the difficulty that the text
presents us with I think it's kind of interesting
interesting
now if the angel of the Lord is not in
fact God in this burning bush passage
then I don't really know what function
he serves
why is he brought up at all that's
interesting all right
Exodus 23 Exodus chapter 23 remember
that God told Moses that he was going to
be with them I will be with you well in
Exodus 23 verse 20 he says behold I send
an angel before you to guard you on the
way and to bring you to the place that
I've prepared pay careful attention to
him and obey his voice do not rebel
against him for he will not pardon your
transgression for my name is in him my
name is in him that's a pretty profound
thing to say God's name is in him and we
don't think his name means just a title
obviously name means more than that to
God now some people say that this means
the angel has to be God because God
would never share his name with anyone
other than himself and that may be the
case I'm not sure I'd like to have more
clarity on Scripture from that if I'm
going to make that point but I will say
this later on in John 17 6 Jesus shows
up and he says I have manifested your
name he's talking to the Father
I've manifested your name to the people
whom you gave me out of the world yours
they were and you gave them to me and
they've kept your word he says I've
manifested your name Jesus shows up and
tells them I've brought the name of God
to these people and this angel in the
Old Testament
it's said of him that his God's name is
in him and that would marry well with
the concept of who Jesus is
works perfectly fine in Christian
theology and that's probably the biggest
case for it it just works so easily for
this angel of the Lord person to be the
second person of the Trinity to be Jesus
because Jesus could talk in all the ways
the angel of the Lord talks think about
this he could talk about God as though
God is somehow other and he can also
talk about God as though he's God
he could speak on behalf of God as
though he's God cuz he is but he could
also speak of the Father totally as
though he's somehow different than him
and that terminology is laid out here in
the Old Testament hundreds of years
before Jesus shows up I think that
sometimes Christians don't realize how
Old Testament our faith actually is
until we actually get into it so we'll
keep reading here um in Exodus 23 I
share with you that there's that God
says I'm gonna send an angel before you
my name is in him be careful to listen
to what he says well in judges chapter
in judges chapter two it says in verse 1
now the angel of the Lord here here he
shows up again went up from Gilgal to
Vulcan and set and he said I brought you
and let's just get this he's actually
traveling goes on a journey from one
city to another city and he's
proclaiming a message as he goes that's
kind of how you had to give messages
back in the day like if you want
everyone to know something you just have
to walk all over the place saying it
over and over again and that's how he
does this now the angel of the Lord went
up from Gilgal to bow came and said I
brought you up from the land of Egypt
and brought you into the land that I
swore to give your father's weight is
it's the angel of the Lord but he claims
credit for bringing them up out of Egypt
in fact he claims credit for being the
one who swore and made oaths to the
fathers of the people of Israel that
would be God right and it continues I
said I will never break my covenant with
you and you shall make no covenant with
the inhabitants of this land you shall
break down their altars but you've not
obeyed my voice now flash back to Exodus
23 21 where God says pay careful
attention to him and obey his voice the
angel the Lord obey the angels voice and
then here
just chapter 2 verse 2 he says but you
have not obeyed my voice and he's
speaking as though he's God and he's yet
he's the angel what is this you have
done so now I say I will not drive them
out before you but they shall become
thorns in your sides and their goats or
their gods sorry their gods shall be a
snare to you as soon as the angel of the
Lord spoke these words to all the people
of Israel that people lifted up their
voices and wept so that seems to be
pretty consistent it makes a lot of
sense it makes the most sense is the
simplest explanation is that this is
basically a prefiguring of the the
plurality that is in God he's three and
one you know there's there's it's not
just God is that's it you know rather
there's like father-son spirit three
persons one being and so we're getting
this really sort of the groundwork laid
the preparation for this is laid in the
Old Testament more clearly revealed in
the new but it's there now notice this
this this angel of the Lord says I'm the
one that made the covenant with your
fathers I made the oath or the promises
to your father's but Genesis 17 here's
what it says about the oath the promise
and notice who's making the promise when
Abraham was 99 years old the Lord
appeared to Abram and said to him I am
God Almighty walk before me and be
blameless that I may make my covenant
between me and you and may multiply you greatly
greatly
so God appears but here's the
interesting they think God appears
Abraham saw something that represented
God well what I could do by putting all
these texts together is say in Genesis
17 Abraham must have seen the angel of
the Lord because he comes later that
same angel and says I swore to your
father's very interesting so he speaks
as if he is God not just a messenger
and most messengers don't really do this
sort of thing they don't go up and they
you know they'll speak even as if they
are though you're so-and-so says you
need to do this to do it but they don't
like impersonate them and then straight
up say yeah I'm the person I'm me I'm
the I'm the God of Bethel they don't
typically say that sort of thing so
judges chapter 6 let's keep going
did you know there was more
judges chapter 6 verse 11 this is a
really interesting story it's the
beginning of the story of Gideon who
like the book of Judges starts well and
ends poorly unfortunately so Gideon here
in verse 11 of Judges 6 it says now the
angel of the Lord came and sat under the
terebinth tree of Ofra let's just
remember where the angel of the Lord is
he sits down under a tree he's hanging
out under this terror bent the tree
which belonged to joash the obvious
right while his son Gideon was beating
out wheat in the winepress to hide it
from the Midianites at some point in
your in your life you read this passage
and it hits you you don't beat out wheat
in a winepress you do that because you
because there's a walls to a winepress
so you're hiding while you're whacking
the wheat out because the Midianites
would take it so I just think it's a
really interesting observation verse 12
it says and the angel of the Lord
appeared to him and said to him the Lord
is with you o mighty man of Valor and
then continuing on verse 14 remember our
focus is who is this angel and the Lord
turned to him and said go in this might
of yours and save Israel from the hand
of Midian did I not send you this is
interesting so we have the angel of the
Lord shows up like physically visibly
present this is this person and he
speaks to Gideon and then in verse 14
the Lord turned to him and said we
didn't have the appearance of God we
don't know where God is but if we're
gonna say God turns to him that implies
that there was some sort of presence
that was so this could be the angel of
the Lord or it could not be I think it's
open to interpretation verse 15 and he
said to him please Lord how can I save
Israel behold my clan is the weakest in
Manasseh and I am the least in my
father's house and the Lord and it's God
speaking here again the Lord said to him
but I will be with you and you shall
strike the Midianites as one man and he
said to him if now I have found favor in
your eyes then show me a sign that it is
you who speak with me and and now listen
to Gideon's solution on how he's gonna
figure out that this is legit cuz that's
Gideon's thing he's like wait for real
like he says that's his wait for real
way are you sure
wait let's check again like he's he
could have been an accountant you know
like double and triple check everything
and and so he says verse 18 please do
not depart from here until I come to you
and bring out my present and set it
before you now whose Gideon speaking to
when he uses these words he's speaking
to God right speaking to Yahweh and he's
and obviously always present because
he's like stay here at this location I'm
gonna bring a gift and present it before
you I'm gonna actually give it to you
and now we start to go okay is this
angel of the Lord the same as Yahweh and
he said I will stay till you return
verse 19 so Gideon went into his house
and prepared a young goat and unleavened
cakes from an e5 flour the meat he put
in a basket and the broth he put in a
pot he brought them to him to who well
previously it was always God right I
mean it was the angels Lord shows up but
then it's the Lord turn and spoke and
he's talking to God
so they him going backwards would be
talking about God but when you read the
next few words of the verse under the
terebinth tree that's the angel of the
Lord so he brings them to him under the
terebinth and presented them and the
angel of God said to him take the meat
and the unleavened cakes and put them on
this rock and pour the broth over them
and he did so then the angel of the Lord
reached out the tip of the staff that
was in his hand and touched the meat and
the unleavened cakes and fire sprang up
from the rock and consumed the meat and
the unleavened cakes and the angel of
the Lord vanished from his sight poof
gone then Gideon perceived that he was
the angel of Yahweh he's like he's the
angel of the Lord he's like okay this
remember he was doing it as it was like
a test maybe not because he's testing
God with maybe because he's testing
himself like I want to make sure I'm not
wrong I'm not crazy and so he's like whoa
whoa
alas Oh Lord God for now I have seen the
angel of the Lord face to face but the
Lord said him peace be to you do not
fear you shall not die and then we have
at the very end verse 23 God speaks
again how does God speak at this point I
don't know
it doesn't say the names Lord vanished
he couldn't see him anymore doesn't
actually say he was gone but just as he
vanished from his sight so maybe he's
still speaking I don't know
verse 23 doesn't seem to make it clear
but it's interesting to me that Gideon
thought he was gonna die because he's an
Israelite and he knows that when you see
God you die like that's what I remember
a mountain on Sinai he's like don't draw
in here you see me you die Moses I can't
even show you all of all of who I am
like that because you're gonna die
that's that's interesting
so in Gideon's mind he's I think he's
seeing God I think that's what's implied
alright let's let's look at another one
judges chapter 13 and now we read about
Samson's parents Samson not Samsun
that's different Samson's parents in
verse 6 of Judges 13 then the woman came
and told her husband a man of God came
to me and his appearance was like the
appearance of the angel of God very awesome
awesome
I did not ask him where he was from and
he did not tell me his name
but he said to me behold you shall
conceive and bear a son so then drink no
wine or strong drink and eat nothing
unclean for the child shall be a
Nazarite to God from the womb to the day
of his death and that was kind of the
deal with Samson he was supposed to be
set aside for God's purposes and he
liked the book of Judges start swelling
into poorly you get this theme in the
book of Judges ending poorly it's kind
of a warning to us all
then manoa prayed to the Lord and said O
Lord please let the man of God whom you
sent come again to us and teach us what
we are to do with the child who will be
born and God listened to the voice of
Manoah and the angel of God came again
to the woman as she sat in the field but
manoa her husband was not with her okay
so we have this this story so far this
angel of God is just the angel of God
right I wouldn't identify it as being
God it's just it could just be an angel
just because it has the word the in
front of angel doesn't mean it has to be
like a pre-incarnate Jesus right it
could just be an angel but as we read on
in verse 16 it says the angel of the
Lord and here's how we get that the
angel of the Lord the angel of God
they're synonymous they're not separate
beings because they're used of the same
being here
so and the angel of the Lord said to me
Noah if you detain me I will not eat of
your food but if you prepare a burnt
offering then offer it to Yahweh and
that's important because it says here
for manoa did not know that he was the
angel of Yahweh the angel of the Lord it
seems to me that even though they were
Israelites in the times of Judges there
was all sorts of paganism invading into
the Israelite people it may have been
that manoa
wasn't sure what God this being was
representing and so he says if you're
gonna offer it you better offer to
Yahweh like don't don't offer to save
all for that for for example so manoa
said to the angel of the Lord what is
your name so that when your words come
true we may honor you and this is one of
those interesting verses in the Old
Testament he says and the angel of the
Lord said to him why do you ask my name
seeing it is wonderful huh that is I
mean that's just confusing it's what do
you mean by that
why do you ask my name's seeing it is
wonderful wonderful his name is is that
mean his name is wonderful like call me
wonderful or something about the quality
of my name is that it's wonderful well I
know that in Isaiah it tells us that his
name shall be called wonderful speaking
prophetically of Christ wonderful
counselor right mighty God everlasting
father Prince of Peace this is this is
interesting to me so verse 19 so Noah
Noah took the young goat with the grain
offering and offered it on the rock to
the Lord to Yahweh to the one who works
wonders and Manoah and his wife were
watching and when the flame went up
toward heaven from the altar the angel
of the Lord went up in the flame of the
altar now Manoah and his wife were
watching and they fell on their faces to
the ground before we look at that how
they respond to this I think that let's
just say this is really a pre-incarnate
Jesus and he has sins in the sacrifice
in the smoke of the sacrifice and I just
I just thought just his my heart I mean
Christ was
the Lamb of God who takes away the sin
of the world but then in verse 21 it
says the angel of the Lord appeared no
more to manoa and to his wife then
minoan knew that he was the angel of
Yahweh so he's like okay for sure this
was all legit and real kind of like
Gideon it's like God's proved himself
and manoah's said to his wife that was awesome
awesome
I'd love to do that again no no he says
we are going to die we shall surely die
for we have seen God
so manoah's convinced that what he just
saw was in fact God now if this was just
an isolated passage fine but when you
put all these together it seems to be a
clear message that the angel of the Lord
is somehow God yet different than Yahweh
at the same time as being Yahweh now let
me bring in to you one of the most
puzzling New Testament verses John 1:18
after we've covered all this stuff I
feel like now I can bring this in and
you're gonna go Oh John 1:18 Jesus says
no one has ever seen God the only God
who is at the father's side he has made
him known what you've never seen God but
God who's at the father's side speaking
of obviously the father right but God
the son who's at the father's side he's
made him known this is one of the
reasons one of the verses why I would
say this is Jesus in the Old Testament
because he's the one making him known
he's the one proclaiming who God is he
can say you've never seen the father but
I have showed him to you
interesting the tension about how did
all these Old Testament people see God
yet not see God ah who's the angel of
the Lord God yet in another sense not
really interesting stuff so there's
actually other scriptures I'd like to
get into some time but I'm gonna say
that because there's there's sort of
other verses in the Old Testament that
build this case for not too different
Yahweh's but this case for the blurring
of the identity of of God as not only
this monotheistic God but also sometimes
you have Yahweh talking about Yahweh and
these kind of concepts that makes sense
with a Trinitarian Christian
view of things and it's right there but
we'll look more of those at a later time
what I want to do right now is give you
a couple scriptures that in addition to
the ones I just shared give a case for
why this is Jesus why is this Jesus
there's one that I'll admit is a little controversial
controversial
it's Micah 5:2 but I think it's pretty
significant Micah 5:2 you know this one
actually but you O Bethlehem Ephrathah
you who are little too little to be
among the clans of Judah from you shall
come forth for me one who is to be ruler
in Israel who's coming forth is from of
old from ancient days and that phrasing
is really interesting from you Bethlehem
someone's gonna come forth to me and he
will be the ultimate ruler and his
comings forth
oh that's been happening forever that's
been happening going way back in time
he's ultimately will come forth but yet
he's been coming forth that seems to me
to Mary very well with everything that
we've done so far tonight you know that
this angel of the Lord is is the one
who's been coming forth now there's a
debate on the Hebrew word there coming
forth it could also mean origins his
origins are from forever you know that
the idea that he's eternal and so it
could also mean that and that's why I
say that's slightly controversial so if
it means what I'm inclined to think then
that's a really good case for Jesus
being identified anytime you see sort of
a theophany an appearance of God to just
assume it's Jesus because he's been
going forth but there's other reasons as
well john 8:58 john 8:58 jesus said to
them truly truly I say to you before
Abraham was I am
it sees I am statements in John some
people they use them a little recklessly
but they are legitimate I am statements
from Jesus in the book of John and
here's one of the most profound ones
before Abraham was I am I am tell him I
am since you and we get this from
multiple places in scripture that that
God is the I am and Jesus refers to
himself as this guy in fact this is how
God identified it to himself to mow
in the burning bush I am so who was in
the burning bush well before Abraham was
I am I think that's interesting John
20:28 Thomas answered him my Lord and my
God my Lord and my God why is that
significant it's significant because we
just simply have a plain and simple
verification Jesus is God like He is God
from all time for all time
he's God john 14:9 this kind of goes
with the one we showed earlier john 1:18
that where he said no one has ever seen
God the only God who is at the father's
side has made him known well this goes
with that john 14:9 he says jesus said
to him have I been with you so long and
you still do not know me Philip whoever
has seen me has seen the father how can
you say show us the father how can you
say show us the father so there's
another one where we're just getting the
idea that Jesus is the representative
you know he is the one who goes forth to
reveal God to us and he is also God and
that marries perfectly with this but now
there may be a question floating in your
head and here's one of the objections is
your mic you're identifying Jesus as an
angel like ontologically that like in
his in his nature who he is you can't
call him an angel Hebrews makes it very
clear Jesus is not an angel he's greater
than the angels Hebrews 1 and I would
say absolutely but we often use the word
angel a little clumsily
and so the word itself simply means
messenger representative quartiere
or angel like you're thinking of an
angelic being but the word itself is
used 213 times in the Old Testament it's
Malak in the Hebrew and it's used often
times of human people so it's obviously
not speaking of their identity at
speaking of their role their messengers
it's used of humans many many times it's
also translated as messenger not only in
the plural but in the singular
for instance second Samuel 1122
so the messenger the angel the Malak
same word the messenger went and came
and told David all that Joab had sent
him to tell it's just a messenger was he
you know it doesn't have anything to do
with whether he's an angelic being or a
human or anything else is just a
messenger that's the point sometimes the
word is translated angel but refers to
humans perhaps metaphorically like a
Kish calls David an angel of God this
could be a metaphor like oh you're
you're you know you're an angel you know
like we use it kind of metaphorically
saying that they're a great help or
really nice to us or something like that
so that's one of the objections is but
you know you can't use the word angel to
refer to Jesus you're changing who he is
but yet all the work we just did was to
say this angel is clearly Yahweh right
and in a sense not and that is Jesus
right he is God but he's not the father
and that marries perfectly well and it
works with the terminology of angel I
actually one day I'd love to do for my
own sake just more studies into the
concept of angels and different types of
angelic beings we don't have a whole lot
of information in Scripture but we have
more than we probably realized in the
text so one day one day all I'd like to
do that another objection because I do
have time for some objections so this is
good the Jewish principle of agency this
will come up anybody who wants to refute
this usually here's how it goes they're
oftentimes coming from a perspective
where they do not believe Jesus is God
eternal right they don't believe that to
begin with so they of course have to
refute this whole angel of the Lord
thing because it's gonna come and get
thrown in their face
so they will all bring up this concept
shalyah the the Hebrew principle of
agency and it goes like this it's it's
like a legal thing almost and the person
who goes who is sent is as the person
who sent them because they're their
agent so they can speak on their behalf
they can speak like it's them talking
that's the Jewish principle the Jewish
legal emissary or agent that's what that
person is the Shelia performs an act of
legal significance it says for the
benefit of the Synder as opposed to him
or herself it's comparable to the Hebrew
term from the Greek
world apostolos which I got from a
website that was trying to debunk the
angel of the Lord being Jesus so so I'm
trying to get this information from them
so it goes like this a person's agent is
regarded as the person himself and they
would say something like this Mike I
know it may seem like the angel of the
Lord is Yahweh because he speaks in the
first person as though he's Yahweh but
this is just ignorance of the culture
you're just so unaware of Jewish
thinking you're too Gentile minded and
you just don't know that it's the normal
conventions of ancient Jews that the
principle of agency that well-known
concept where an agent is as the one who
sent him that this clearly allows that
person to speak and sound like their God
when they're not God so therefore
they're not God and for an example
they'll go to I think there's only one
passage they would go to and Deuteronomy
I didn't get it in my notes
unfortunately but where Moses he talks
and at one point he shifts and it sounds
like he's talking as though he's got and
it's however it may I point out it's not
nearly as profound or clear as the
statements from the angel of the Lord
that we've already read this may well be
the principle of agency and that's my
response it's unwise to argue that this
principle doesn't exist
that's not wise at all but I feel like
the people who want to use Shelia to say
the the Angels Lord is not Jesus they're
just blowing it way out of proportion it
just seems like totally abusing the
principle the principles like a legal
thing I can I can speak on their behalf
but they don't imitate them that doesn't
mean that they go like imagine if I came
to you and you've got this principle in
your head this Shelia principle in her
head and I just want you to know it's
really me so I show up and I say hey I'm
Mike I'm Mike from Hosanna I'm Mike from
The Sunday night service and you go
probably just Shelia he's just speaking
as though he's Mike but he's not really
Mike and I'll go yeah no I'm the Mike
who made those promises before I'm the
Mike who helped you out and got you
through those problems and I go I get it
I get it Mike sent you you see you just
you just don't bring the principle that
far by throwing the this principle of
which everybody does who disagrees with
the angel of the Lord being Jesus by
throwing this principle up what they've
done is they basically made it
impossible there's nothing the Angels
Lord could say to convince them that
it's actually Yahweh there's just no
words that could be used he's like yeah
it's me I'm Yahweh
oh look we've seen God like no no
shalyah like I can use this thing it's
it's like the the skeleton key to unlock
the door and escape seeing him for who
he is I think that's unfortunate so I
could share more on that but I think
that's the biggest issue it's when we
look at the particulars just go back
over the study in your head yeah this is
not a representative but not merely a
representative obviously is a represent
but not merely is clearly claiming to
also be God and there's very good
contextual reasons to think so I doubt
the show Leah spoke like that I really
doubt it
and I'd have to see specific examples to
think that they did there's another
challenge though and that is when I say
that Jesus came and we read about the
Angels of Lord and he's spoken of in
humanoid terms am I saying Jesus was
physically incarnate before he was
incarnate before he was in flesh before
he came as a human that he came as a
human that's it that's a problem isn't
it I mean that would confuse me a little
bit I'm going hold on when are you
saying Jesus coming as a baby though
that's not it that wasn't the first time
or that wasn't the only time he appeared
in human form let me respond to that
because what we need to know to do now
is look at the differences between Jesus
coming in the Incarnation and these
Christ often ease these appearances of
Jesus in the Old Testament and here's
some of the differences appearing in
some sort of body is not the same as
taking on human nature living a full
human life and dying a human death the
angel of the Lord
for instance the Old Testament
appearances they may not really be truly
human we don't know what they are they
do things humans can't do like they show
up and they disappear in a flame of fire
like you try that like this was there's
something else going on here right
there's not they may not really truly be
human they may just be appearing in this
form for this cause which explains like
the vanishing and things like that the
Old Testament appearance is maybe
perhaps you could say they even are
human but
not involve a human fall in nature
there's no fall in nature so there's no
sin nature that's there there's no
temptations that are there it's not
really our form it's just a form like
ours if if and that's an option although
I'm I'm inclined to not even think that
it's fully human the Old Testament
appearances these is angel of the Lord
appeared says they did not involve human
parentage or birth it's not like the
angel of the Lord jest stated in a womb
came out live the human life and then
showed up was like hey I'm here that
never happened that happened with Jesus
when he shows up in in Mary's womb and
he lives a full human life so there's a
radical difference another issue is the
Old Testament appearances are not a
humbled condescension coming down lowly
the angel Lord shows up and he's pretty
glorious when he comes and they're like
I'm gonna die right people saw Jesus
they didn't think I'm gonna die cuz he
humbled himself lowly and came actually
as a human not just in some sort of
representative you know shape or size
but he came as a human so even though
they may well be appearances of Christ
and I think that they are personally
he's not lowly he's not truly human he's
not represented representative of the
human race he doesn't represent all of
us in those he represents simply God
coming to to communicate and didn't die
didn't get born and didn't live a human
life didn't suffer temptations like it's
completely unlike the Incarnation so
hopefully that answers the question -
say the Incarnation different than a
Christ Stephanie cry Stephanie we're not
even sure if there was blood in those
veins or what we don't know but with
Jesus we know exactly what he was and
who he came as and if somebody after all
this was like Mike I'm still not
convinced like I just don't believe you
the angel of the Lord is Jesus I would
say the worst case scenario is that the
Angels the Lord is not Jesus but still
somehow stands as a prefigurement of
Jesus so that we can get the concepts of
who Jesus would be when he showed up
because you still can't escape it he's
like he's like Yahweh and I'm the angel
of the Lord and yet Yahweh says and yet
I say and there's this this confusion of
persons in a sense that's meant to set
us up so that we can have a better
understanding of the Trinity
a couple questions that might come up is
is is every single instance of the
phrase the angel of the Lord or the
angel of God is every instance
representing a cry Stephanie and I'm not
convinced it is I think you just have to
look at each passage because it's a
generic phrase like the angel of the
Lord could be who's that oh that's the
angel angel food well the angel de lor
like this this could be a generic
terminology as well so I considered
looking at the individual cases I think
it's like 39 times it shows up
altogether and yeah and I think that's I
think that's actually all I wanted to
say about that but what I'll do is I
just realize I'm at the end of my notes
and blink so what I want to do next week
next time we meet is I want to talk
about kind of build on this and talk
about this further concept of there
being sort of what some people like I
said these two powers these two like
Yahweh's one like - mah hear o Israel
the Lord our God the Lord is one and yet
you have things like not just when it
uses the phrase phrase the angel of the
Lord but other instances in the Old
Testament where it draws out this sort
of difference between Yahweh and Yahweh
and you're like what does this mean and
we'll talk more about that next time and
we'll get into the terminology of why
John one uses the phrase the word to
talk about Jesus and when the word of
the Lord came to the people of Israel
what is that about exactly so let's pray
father we thank you for your word amen
to that and we pray that you would you
just continue to guide us and give us
wisdom as we handle these lofty and high
concepts that we see in Scripture may we
do so carefully thoughtfully but Jesus
what we realized as we read this stuff
is you're you're amazing and when you
come humbly and lowly in a manger you
live a human life and you allow people
to spit upon you and curse you you
brought yourself so low so that you
could love us since you could forgive us
so you could redeem us and we're so
grateful that we can come to know you
we're just
or blown away by who you are and we pray
that our minds would continue to just
grow in our appreciation of the identity
of this Jesus in Jesus name Amen [Music]
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