Wine investment is a potentially lucrative but risky endeavor that requires passion for wine, a long-term perspective, and a strategic approach, blending enjoyment with financial acumen.
Mind Map
انقر للتوسيع
انقر لاستعراض خريطة الذهن التفاعلية الكاملة
if you want to invest into wine first
you need to love wine and and you need
to have pleasure with it because it's a
risky asset so if you don't it's not
something secure it's not a way to
securely store some money somewhere so
at least you need to take the pleasure
so if I always say it's the most liquid
investment because at the end of the day
if it's a poor investment you still have
a great wine you open it and you you
pour it and you drink it with your
friends I often wonder whether or not
the uh the best days for wine
Investments are gone because you see
like some of these bottles especially
burgundy especially BTO are so expensive
and then the question arises how more
expensive can it get it is a very good [Music]
question hi everybody Welcome to no
sediment wine podcast and today my guest
is tamama Haymon wine adviser for
private wine collectors correct correct
did I pronounce your name correctly absolutely
absolutely
okay hi hi so before we start could you
please tell tell us more about yourself
and your wine journey and why are you
qualified to talk about wine investment
sure hello everyone I originally come
from a a family of wine merchants and we
deal in wine since 1842 in in the north
of Belgium so I grew up in a wine
environment where you start getting a
few drops of wine in your water when
you're 12 when you start drinking wine
when you're 15 and you start learn the
Journey of learning about about wine so
that's how I started and I got very
interested into wine not only Bordeaux
where originally uh we were investing in
and we had already the family had some
wine Estates like
V down there so but I also decided to
harvest in burgundy and to visit the and
to visit the B Main and and other
regions outside of France and in 2005 I
decided to set up my own Boutique um to
help people that wanted to uh collect
wine so that there's basically two
Trends um is to make people discover
other wines and help people to make
private Collections and can you explain
what wine investment is and how it
differs from Simply collecting wine yeah
it it's it's really the strategy is what
do you want to do with the wine that you
will be buying so some people buy wines
uh to enjoy it in a couple years
themselves some people ask me to do
private collections for their children
saying I want I want long-term wines but
let me buy wines that I will enjoy with
my children or that my my children will
enjoy after me but that's really an A
View to consume the wine to enjoy it a
wine investment is of course a a more
mertile approach is to say I will buy
now uh wine in order to be able to
resell them with a profit in five 10
years Time 5 10 10 years that would be
the yes that I always say less than 5
years is is not really an option okay
and and 10 is probably the best is is
basically by the the ones when they're
young and starting to sell them when
they enter and they their drinking
window yeah sure so what is an
investment great wine an an investment
great wine is of course a wine that can
age so you need to have the Aging
potential and a wine that people will be
looking for in five to year 10 years
time at a higher price than the one you
that the price that you paid for it so
that's the main if you want to buy wine
to make a profit in a couple years it's
of course the first AR argument now
beyond that you still need to take
pleasure and therefore invest in wines
that you believe are are are great wines
otherwise it's it's just like a private
car collector or a private stem
collector or you invest in something
that you believe will bring you some
profits in the year within something
that that you enjoy as well but there
must be several factors that that impact
whether or not the wine is really
investment grade wine and I often think
that one of the factors would be ageability
ageability
you said that it must be able to live at
least five or 10 years yes so the the
first thing is is a wine that improve
with age so one one of those 20% of of
the total uh wine production in the
world that can age that get better after
five six seven 10 years Bordeaux is one
example we spoke about it earlier most
great bordeau have to wait minimum 5
years and ideally 10 years we always say
you have to start opening them after 8
to 10 years so that's that's that's one
of the reason because otherwise if you
invest in a wine that that has to be
drunk within the next two years or
doesn't improve there is no real reason
to keep it that that that actually
answers my next question because I was
thinking um is there maybe some examples
or exceptions that there are wines that
are not necessarily great for aging but
there could still be investment grade
wines probably not I probably not I will
think about it it's a very good question
but but but probably not because the
fact is that you have you need this time
for the price to increase of course if
you buy a bottle in January you're not
going to resell it with a 20% or 25%
increase in price in September unless
it's a very rare R and you have the
possibility to to have it at a good
price then you could do but that would
be more it would be more like as a buy
and resell is that you you get a very
good price if you buy them at a normal
price which would be most of the cases
of course you need this this period of
time for the wine to for the price of
that one to increase and and and also
for because you will resell them mostly
to people that will want to drink them
so you will want to resell them when
their their aging potential is reached
and the wine is ready for drinking so uh
how important is the role of limited
availability of that of that wine
because I often think uh and I might be
quoting wrong numbers but this is what I
read or heard somewhere D Peron which I
think is investment grade wine is
released like like 5 million bottles
every every year or every almost every
year yeah so it's it's um there are two
types of wines there are there are ones
that people are looking for because they
are rare if if you take ran for example
there's not that many bottles produced
every year so if you want a ran and if
you want a specific here it's going to
be difficult to find in bordo the same
goes for for Le two hectars a few
thousand botles a year so it's it's at
certain stage it gets R but you have
other examples like mut
they produce hundreds of thousands of
bottles every year and it's still a
great investment wine so it never gets
it really never gets rare but the price
still increases because people know that
the wine is getting better and so and
there are clients that are looking for
muton or laf that are ready to drink now
they don't want to wait so they say I
want a 2016 or I want a 2006 and they're
ready to pay the price okay yeah you
don't have to look for the one that is
only produced in in 800 cases there are
there are wines op in in Napa is the
same thing they produce quite a lot of
wine but it's still a great w investment
wine yeah but what I just uh realized
and I wanted to ask you how important in
nowadays of tech like the technology uh
is the Vintage because there are some
wine makers who will swear that the wine
is made into the vineyard like the great
wine is made within a Vineyard and there
are some who say that the Vintage
doesn't matter anymore because we have
technology like Optical swaters that
will make great wine every year I I
don't I mean I do wine myself and of
course the the years where the weather
wasn't as great as we hoped we do our
best to do the best wine we can but at a
certain stage if you didn't have enough
Sun if you don't get to maturity or if
there was too much water and and there's
more water in the graves than you
expected you can still do a very good
wine but it's still going to be lower
than the previous year or the the year
after where the meteorological
conditions are perfect and it's the same
for muton and it's the same for for
everyone it's that the certain stage of
course if you drink a muton 17 or 13
it's a great wine it's a fantastic wine
but if you compare it to a 16 then it's
it's a you will feel the difference even
though it's the same vintage it's same
Technologies the same people they take
the same care even more care in the
Years where it's too much rain on enough
Sun but still at the end of the day it's
it's still an agriculture product is the
quality the the quality of your Graves
when they enter the wine making facility
it really it it depends on the weather
so you can't make unless someone one day
wants to make a wine in in in a closed
area but I wouldn't recommend it yeah
also I I I don't want to live in that
time yeah no and don't do with wines
what you did with tomatoes please yeah
exactly that's a good point um Are there
specific wines or regions that are best
to invest yes of course there is
absolutely I mean if you you can invest
in you can buy as much moldavian wine
that you want and they are great
moldavian wines but I don't believe it
will be a huge increase in price over
over the years so there are regions they
of course as we always say there are
regions that are mature so if you take
Bordeaux burgundy Napa uh and and and
some parts of Italy like the super
tuscans of course that's the wine that
most people collect there are other
regions like in Spain Del or or the rone
which are really also slowly becoming uh
regions from which you should invest
into certain producer or certain bottles
we can think about ChatOn dup we can
think of where 20 years ago I don't
think anyone would have ever really
invested um I have some clients we
invested in K in in in 2009 and has
proven to be a very good investment yes
okay so it's it's it's growing but wine
collection and wine investment is a very
long-term uh process like like in every
it's a bit like real estate you got some
parts of the city where you yeah they
are really fashionable there are the
other parts of the city where you you
think they will become much more
fashionable but it's also a bet cuz
sometimes they never do that's true you
B the building you thought in 20 years
this is going to be the place to have
and 20 years later they not
really but that's part that's just
that's part of the fund as as well is
that you you you you should always
diversify and say I will take some of
the very established I will some of the
top top some of the established and also
some of the rising stars that hopefully
will will rise at a certain stage yes
okay so you said that would be like
bordeau burgundy champagne as well yes
definitely champagne are the most
established Napa as well some of the
Napa wines but also in those regions you
got very well established wines that
everybody wants to to collect and you
have also Rising Stars the younger
generation or or Estates that are
becoming a lot more I mean which
sometimes are there for for for for a
long time sorry yeah but that no to
start to have more attraction into wine
collections you take Spotswood in Napa
um she she unfortunately the founder she
unfortunately passed away a few years
ago but in 10 years ago nobody was
speaking of Spotswood no we integrate
Spotswood in several collections because
we we believe and we know that price is
increasing and there is demand for that
wine when it's 10 12 15 years old okay
oh and the emerging what would be the
emerging wine regions you you
mentioned yeah for me rone is definitely
uh but also a bit no more more than ran
if you go to Jura Sawa it's it's really
increasing we we saw someone like
gva also 10 or 15 years ago real
connoisseur knew the place but it wasn't
really considering as a collecting you
have some of the L as well well that is
they are they are increasing where where
you see demand and then and then um pimo
in Italy of course is is really Rising
not only the five top stars but others
and R Delo where you had a few wines
with 100 points which really started to
for collectors or people like me to
start looking at and say is there really
that quality there and there is there is
so this brought me to wondering is there
more regions outside Europe as well
because currently we only see kind of
Napa and I think uh that's a that's a
difficult one yes there is definitely a
Napa if you take a little bit in um in
Argentina so a few of the the top uh
Mendoza wines uh are are emerging the
fact is that the as you said it needs to
be rare but it cannot be too rare
because nobody knows about it if you do
a fantastic wine but you do 800 bottles
a year and you only sell it to your
neighbors then it doesn't get that
attraction and that's sometimes that's
something that you have in certain
countries like Argentina or Portugal
they are absolutely brilliant wines that
when I taste them I would really want to
put them in a collection but they don't
sell any cuz they say we have our
natural clients we've made a location
systems reproduce 800 cases a year and
they all go to these people so you have
to go to these people if you want a case
but but we're not going to do
collections with one case what we want
to have access is a bit a bit more but
sure yes yeah and I was also wondering
uh regarding theoha for example and the
question then arise in my mind does it
have to do something with the fact that
they lack ionic Wines in the region yes
because we have in Riva Delo we have
Vega Sicilia and in supp super in
Tuscany we have super tuskin like sasay
or Naya but in rioa maybe there's lack
of these like as you said 100 point or
like iconic the first thing is um for me
there there's two things there's super
Tuscan of Vegas Sicilia uh or or or
Pingus is that they it's it's bordo
Bloods so they they've tried to
reproduce What was made in bordo it's
it's very different at the end the
product is very interesting but they
didn't really work on the on the local
grapes and that's for me a little less
interesting because I always I always
think that local grapes should
first be brought to the top potential
but but yeah you need also some leaders
you need some people they want to
produce excellent quality wines and I'm
ready to put a price on it I say I'm not
going to sell it the price the people
want to pay I want to sell it the price
I want them to pay for it and and it
takes years I mean if you think about uh
even Bordeaux I mean after the second
world war half of the midok was bankrupt
and nobody was collecting wines and
nobody in 1947 shat mangu I think was
blended into some Entre cuz he know what
to do with it okay I won't SP that one
if I remember correctly I would need to
check but but uh so it takes a
generation or two generations to to rise
and and you need people that want to do
that so yes it's it's it's it's it's
true you need iconic people you need
leaders you need locomotives to to pull
the rest of the to the top but the fact
is that I think those regions don't have
any choice anymore because uh globally
people drink less wine but the value
they're ready to put in wine is
increasing so we are selling in europeo
we we are selling more and more wines
but in litters less and less so you have
really to the only trend is is to is to
increase your quality because otherwise
you will be left behind yeah yeah the
premiumization yeah exactly okay so um
we talked about the regions and uh and
what is the investment grade wine but
what kind of returns can investors
expect from wine especially if we are
comparing to other asset classes yes um
of course it really depends how much how
much Mone you're ready to put in there
and it really depends how much risk
you're ready to take now if you remain
in the very classical collection um but
so far uh we we beat most of the asset
classes only also because it's more
risky that most of the other asset
classes so it's always a risk and return
but normally you can hope well above 5%
you can between 5 and 10% per year but
of course it's also it's a a bottle of
wine doesn't pay a dividend so you have
to invest the day one and you get the
money back with the with the profit 5 10
years ago but hopefully after 10 years
you have minimum double the price okay
uh of the bottle that you purchased yes
doubl that's
not but uh sometimes when I speak with
people uh I even have had situations
when there are people coming in in the
wine shop and they say I have this one
old bottle in my seller or in my living
room or in my kitchen and what would be
the price I want to know and usually we
unfortunately send these people away
because uh this is not really how the uh
like in wine wine investment uh and
selling and buying happens so could you
maybe walk us through the process of
buying and storing the wine indeed uh we
have a lot of people coming and I I
always say the problem is not the prize
the pro the real problem at the end is
to find the buyer so us have to keep in
mind is who will want to buy my bottle
and therefore and then if you if to work
the other way you start thinking about
first the provence is I need to have a
absolutely pristine Provence I need to
prove there is a lot of fake wines uh
which bottles are absolutely very
difficult to to to track the fact that
they are they are they are false bottles
so the first thing is where did I buy
this wine and keep the records of saying
I bought it from a very established wine
um shop or I bought it from a wine
merchant or about it there so trust to
show where you got that bottle from
that's the that's the first first point
it's also the possibility to track the
price that you put and then there is the
storage of that portal is that this it's
not only about the quality of the
storage you might have at home a
fantastic sell which is perfect in
condition in humidity Etc but you need
to prove it as well because after 10
years the people will ask you okay that
bottle of pit I want to buy where was it
stored or in my seller ah and my seller
is perfect is perfect but you can't
prove it yeah and so you everyone will
say it's been it's been perfectly stored
even if it was in the kitchen below the
light and has been there like a like a
decoration for 10 years and then for
sure the wine is dead but that person
who will want to sell the bottle will
tell you it was perfectly stored so my
recommendation will always be is use one
of those um use one of those companies
that store for you and that they can and
they can certify that the storage was
absolutely in perfect conditions um like
Venia for example and the others but
that's that's very important so that's
that's the process and then the third
process as I said that the most
difficult is to find a buyer and these
companies can help you finding a buyer
finding a restaurant that is looking for
H wine or looking for someone that is is
throwing a party and once and wants wine
from that that is ready to drink to
impress his guest so it's it's much
easier if there is a Marketplace or if
the company is helping you to sell it
because also people will see that
they're buying from a
professional even though the profit will
be for you because you you pay for that
ble 10 years ago and you will get the
profit but it's much easier than going
with you pus on the road and say I have
5,000 but of course we sometimes find uh
fantastic private Sellers and we audit
them and we check them but for me it's a
different class it's is when I resell
when I buy those private and then I
resell them I resell them to people that
know and we explain them this was a
private seller we've checked we've been
there it was an elderly person is he had
a fantastic uh wine seller we tested the
wine it's is beautiful but please know
it comes from a private seller okay for
me it's important that people know
because when they buy from a
professional they're expecting if if
it's not a specific case they're
expecting something absolutely pristine
in terms of Provence and in terms of
storage so would you say that buying
from a private seller means you have
higher risk that also means lower uh
price Than People yeah this this
normally you should pay a lower price
when you buy it from a private seller um
if if you buy it and the problem if you
store it in your private seller you
probably will sell it lower MH unless
you find someone that trusts you but if
you sell it on the open market usually
private sellers are sold at the lower
prices okay and uh if I would want to
invest in wine uh would I have to do
like whole cases is like whole cases
easier to sell or like single bottles
can I buy whole for example can I buy
whole case of uh muton Ro child and then
may me drink few bottles and then sell
like 10 bottles away what is that
that
it's no that's a very good question I
always say that the day you open the
case you lost 25% of its value okay so
you need to know that entire case is
closed with the band Etc uh are have a
better value that's what people are
looking for they're looking for close
cases that doesn't mean you can't sell a
few bottles and what you're saying is an
excellent idea that's what I I mainly
say if you buy into if you invest into
wine that you enjoy at least drink one
or two because otherwise it's a bit of a
Pity and maybe your profit you will
drink your profit but at least you will
have drunk this beautiful wine for free
because the rest of the B so yes you can
decide to invest into one one one pus
one na one oppus one Etc this this is
this is absolutely feasible but if you
have the means I would always recommend
to um to invest into full cases yeah but
there are cases of three on on premium
WIS okay so there's cases of one if you
go to that level about €500 a bottle you
can have an original wooden case of one
which which is then very nice and I I
recently have a client who bought he
wanted a vertical collection of of L and
and I told him if you want that I would
strongly recommend to buy original
wooden cases of one of each is going to
be much nicer and I would recommend you
never to open them even if you unless
you want to drink it of course but if
you don't want to drink it if the idea
is to resell it later my recommendation
would not to um open them because it's
it's it's it's much easier and it's much
people are looking for this original
yeah yeah yeah wooden case yeah sure
okay okay I did not know because
originally it just seems that when you
want to invest and you have to start
like for example with Bordeaux then to
buy whole case which would be six or 12
bottles is a lot of investment and then
you mentioned like have to diversify and
that's even more yeah but if you want to
do per one buy original wooden case of
one bottle of my or original wood case
of one of M uh because that's going to
be easier to resell yes okay
um actually which I did not mention and
now I'm thinking about it we keep
thinking we we keep talking about
bordeau but uh we did not talk about on
Premier yeah which is uh in the
investment Market is becoming more and
more popular but lately I've also seen
some articles that say that not
necessarily the price is increasing or
or is increasing as fast as we expect so
do what is what are your thoughts on on
on Premier currently in this current
stage it's it's again a bit looking into
the bowl of Crystal and and trying to to
guess uh people I always tell to people remember
remember
1997 when the when the wines were
released the prices were lower than on
prer so people that bought 1997 on prer
most of them lost money between the
between the time they paid and the time
they received the bottles so it's not an
automatic thing you can't you cannot
believe I will pay that price and it
will increase later the shatto of course
will increase the price between the
people that bought opem and then people
will buy when the wine is available they
will because that's part of the rules
but after on the secondary Market if
there is too much wine as currently you
might might see the prices dropping and
that's what we've seen recently if you
take the last year most most of the even
the iconic wines we saw the price is
slowly uh going down and that's what
also provoked the bordeau to issue their
arm prier 2023 with a with a 20 to 40%
discounts compared to last year yeah so
it's it's it's not automatic but over
the time if you look since some existed
yes is that normally you you pay even
less if you take the opim risk because
you need to know it's a risk because you
give the money the wine doesn't exist
already it's it's in a barrel somewhere
but the bottles are not there so you
don't know what could happen either to
your Merchant or or to the wine but I I
recommend it I say to people if you want
to really make I mean not if you want to
make a collection of 12 bottles I
wouldn't go there but if you
systematically we have collectors they
gave us an order of saying you buy a
case of each of these ones every year on
PR until I die and and that's part of
the game they want to have they want to
make sure that to have the one they want
to make sure they pay the best
what should be the best price and and
they want vertical collections so they
won muton from from 2010 to 20040 but
they W every single year in their
collection yes so I I would recommend it
and over the years it has been the case
that it was always cheaper on premere
than later yeah with a few exceptions
and there are now some Chateau that are
exiting on premere system for example
atour I think yeah yeah so what are your
thoughts on this they are essenti
releasing wine when they say it's ready
yeah that's what um that's what mupo
said he said I want to release my wines
when I believe they already so L 17 has
been released recently but no no younger
vintages and he hasn't released 16
Because he believes 16 is not I think
the the main the you need to think about
the origin of a the origin of a was
first store wine takes a lot of space so
the chatos they need every year to see
those bottles leave the estate because
they don't have unlimited space to store
except a few a few of them but also in
terms of Treasury the originally the EM
was not accessible to the end consumer
it was the negoti the wine Merchants
were helping the Chateau by advancing
them Treasury and and already have have
their wines and now the problem that we
see is that some of those they just are
acting as Brokers so by the minute they
bought the bottle on PR at the chatau
they try to resell it or they resell it
automatically and so people with very
Deep Pockets like Mr P he said why
should I I don't need Brokers I need
people that age because the idea of emur
is that the nego would buy it on Prem
would Age it in bottles and would
release it a few years later if you take
our grandparents you could never buy the
latest vintage it was always all the
ones that even at the wine making
facility it was there so that's why some
people are basically said if if that's
the case if they only act as a broker I
don't need the cash so I'll just do it
myself and I'll I'll benefit from the
increase in quality and in price yes
okay but we thought at a certain stage
we thought it would be a very big Trend
but it's it hasn't been really uh this
it's only a few a few ones so far and
we've seen other Estates who were not
available em we decided to enter the
entrepreneur system so it's it's back
and forth okay actually yeah before we
move on to the next question uh you
reminded me of something you said I I I
decided to buy wines that I thought I
could never have access to and this is
something that I maybe start to feel a
bit angry about when we talk about wine
investment then be it is because of that
that wine has become an investment asset
many people who love wine simple people
like me I cannot afford these wines
anymore I often think about salom which
was which is amazing champagne and I
liked it so much there's no way I'm
buying that bottle anymore you want to
spend ,000 on the B more more I mean
whenever I checked lately it is like th
1,800 like close to 2,000 per bottle and
it's just and and actually in this case
I even blame the producer because they
did release the 2008 only in Magnum so
it yeah okay yeah in decreases yeah yeah
yeah and also increased price so yeah so
what are your thoughts on this like how
can we apologize to those people who
cannot afford these wines anymore yeah
know I I I agree but but it's it's it's
a fact basically is that there is one
thing that people I
always when I speak about one investment
I always say to people keep in mind that
all these bottles are
somewhere so pay I mean of course some
of them are drunk when they're resell
sold but we know that some bottles like
Roman that we spoke before are basically
kept like trophies like gold and of
course the ction of gold increases and
we see the price of gold increasing so
it doesn't mean that it can still
increase in price but one day I would
say one day all these bottles will come
from the underground and will will pop
on the market and then you could see one
day that the price of wine decreases so
in wine investment is a risky investment
like like other Investments but also
like real estate or or or or if you buy
shares of a company it could also
decrease quite quite drastically for
some reasons that you were not expecting
but yes it's it's also my case is that
um I don't drinky
anymore exactly it seems almost I don't
know like inappropriate to open that
yeah I a chance to still drink it
sometimes with with clients or with
collections that really want to and and
their problem is with home can I drink
that and when I'm around they just dig
the opportunity to to open one but but
personally I'm I'm even psychologically
I'm not ready to put so much money in a
boss of one yeah yeah that's the thing
and um but it can we there are some
mistakes and people have to think about
it but there are some mistakes they want
to keep their prices down to give it
access to real amateurs and those ones
are very difficult to get but they also
sometimes ask you to sign with your
blood that you're going to drink what
they give you because they don't want
this to happen and I know that for Ober
V it was when he wrote about it he said
I'm so sad because I know that less than
half of the bottles that I produce are
drunk the others are stored somewhere
either in private collections to look at
it or trying to see the price increase
and it we we know went to the level of
28,000 for bottle of of DRC 28 uh 2008
yes it's it's it's at that stage it's a
bit of a pity for wine lovers yes yeah
yeah too sad um okay but let's move on
so uh we several times mentioned
technology and I want to talk with you
more about the technology but not the
one that we use in the winery or in the
the vyak but uh increasingly more uh how
can we use technology uh in our wine
investment to help us we you mentioned
Venezia yeah now the blockchain is a
fantastic tool as you know before some
State started to put QR codes on their
bottles and you can go mut for example
check my bottle because they know
there's a lot of fake production of of
mut but but even know with this with
these non-fungible tokens that you can
you can align the the ownership so it's
you it's basically representing the
ownership of the bottle it can store all
the storage conditions live and then it
it keeps it as a memory and you also
track all the all the movements or all
the transactions that were before so
it's for me it's a fantastic means for
wine investors and for for wine
collectors that you have to think about
it that that you can you can be for sure
know where the bottle is that it's a
real one where it came from and how it
was stored so this this nonf funable
tokens or using the blockchain is really
an opportunity yeah for the wine
collection industry yes and it also
helps to uh protect from the uh fragant
wine yes yeah I mean if you if you buy
it from a very reputable company and and
uh and they buy directly from the chatau
and and theable token is put on the
bottle or it's created when the bottle
needes the shut out it really protects
from the provence perspective okay and
one of my last questions is uh I'm I
told you about this uh before I often
wonder whether not the uh the best days
for wine investment are gone because you
see like some of these bottles
especially burgundy especially BAU are
so expensive and then the question
arises how more expensive can it get and
like that also decreases the amount
of I don't know increase of the of the
price in the future keep in mind that
the amount of potential customers is
increasing at a very high rate because
the upper middle class in in the world
is increasing a lot and most of those
bottles are stuff that people want so if
you take muton uh now in Asia there has
been like 250 million people that have
no access to that kind of money to buy
these kind of things and after a won
back and and and a Prada shoes that's
something that they really want to have
in their hands so first second 20 years
ago when we say that bottles would be
more than 500 people thought we were
crazy this would never happen I can take
it for Vi 2007 I think at65 and then
people think it will never it will never
reach and now a bottle of 2016 is €450
on the on the retail market so I I don't
believe in the fact that it will stop at
a certain stage first there is inflation
that's the first thing and second the
fact that there's more and more
customers uh nobody's shocked anymore by
a, Price tack on certain bottles of
champagne or on certain bottles of
Bordeaux we sold shal BL to 2010 above
,000 and it still sold I still sold some
of them it didn't stop people they
wanted to have sh BL 2010 20 years ago
people saying that the good years were
behind them and and the industry has
increased and has been very profitable
the last 20 years so I I I believe in a
very bright future for one collection
okay okay that means less for me
again less of the great wines for this
is what I do uh I invest in myself I
usually love I buy wines that I know
will become more expensive in the future
and I not be able to afford them anymore
so I buy and I keep but then drink them
and then I drink them the idea is not to
sell them just to make sure because
there are few like baros that I bought
10 years ago and there's no way I could
afford them right now no definitely and
my my my seller is a lot of that as well
is I don't buy the same wines I I buy
them to drink them it's absolutely no
investment for profit but I I the wines
I buy today are not the same wines that
I bought 10 or 20 years ago even if my
financial means increased those ones
that I bought 20 years ago are above the
price T I'm ready and I always try to
find the rising star so I find the ones
that in in 10 years time I will tell
myself you did a great investment this
wine is no it is of absolutely perfect
quality but on top of that no people
know about it and you you have them and
you when you bought them it was it was
affordable to you yeah exactly I didn't
I didn't overspend so and that's what
for for love for uh wine drinkers and
wine lovers what you should do is look
for for the rising stars of tomorrow
that's what is really exciting I agree
yeah this this guy will be a star in
yeah in 10 years yeah I have one more
question left but I wanted to ask you
before maybe there's something I didn't
ask you that you wanted to talk about
more specifically when we tackled the uh
topic of wine investment or collecting
no as as I say for me the the the first
criteria if you want to invest into wine
is first you need to love wine and and
you need to have pleasure with it uh
because it's a risky asset yeah so if
you don't it's not something secure it's
not a way to securely store some money
somewhere or save some money somewhere
so at least you need to take the
pleasure so if I always say it's the
most liquid investment because at the
end of the day if it's a poor investment
you still have a great wine you open it
and you you pour it and you drink it
with your friends and then you leave the
idea behind but of course for that you
need to love one yeah that's true so and
my last question is a question that I
ask everyone uh on my podcast is which
is one wine or one wine MTH that you
would like to debunk I have personally
an obsession is I try to buy um the
leader of a region and drink it just to
to feel the difference and I must say
that I have been often
deceived because sometimes you have
people that have a fantastic reputation
everybody tell you should drink their
wine is absolutely fantastic then you
take the means you buy the bottle you
drink it and then you think yeah it's a
very good one but it's not five times
better than his neighbor or or the other
guy or this rising star that is really
getting re reopening his mind so for me
one of the myth is it's it's like racing
you have the PO pole position but he's
not necessarily the winner at the end
okay I agree and uh off camera I will
ask you for few questions regarding some
of these Stars well uh yeah I wanted to
say thank you uh for coming actually
quite far from I know where you're
coming from and um uh thank you for uh
coming and we have been trying to
arrange this for a while now and this is
a small thank you gift that we give
everyone thank you very much yeah I will
definitely use it to harvest yes please
I'll be very happy because we need to
put a hat because of the sun it would be
perfect thank you very much thank you great
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