It feels like we've now been talking
about these now what I would call
endless wars the last five times or six
times that you and I have sat down and
there seems to be cynically no end in
sight. I mean do you think that we're
going to now I don't know with the new
administration see a windown of I don't
know let's start with Ukraine Russia or
something like that. So, you know what I
think is awesome is uh I I agree the
endless war thing is sad, but what's
been really powerful is that as we've
sat and had these conversations over the
last three years, we've watched as the
predominant theme comes true, right?
What we really started talking about 3
years ago was whether or not democracy
will survive. That was really the core
question. And now what we're seeing is
the rise of authoritarianism. And we've
been watching it. We've been talking
about it. And it's really actually
happening. Right? You see strong men in
Turkey. You see strong men in Israel.
You see strong men in Russia. You see a
strong man taking over here in the
United States. It's happening
everywhere. And weak men, democracy
driven people in Europe have been kicked
out of parliament. They've had forced
re-elections like you've seen France,
you've seen Germany, you've seen people
make a a strong push for the democratic
process and the whole thing just gets
recycled and a new strong man comes out.
People say it's conservative versus
liberal. It's not. I agree. It's all
about authoritar like authority and
power and the consolidation of power to
make fast decisions. That's the world we
live in right now. Here's the one thing
with that though I'd be curious about
your opinion
on when you look at these quote unquote
weak leaders Biden aside because I mean
you know he wasn't in charge. The guy
couldn't even function. But when you
look at the weak leaders around the
world, one of the big knocks on the
governments that they've run is that
they're trying to control a lot. That's
what people say.
So in reality, it's almost to me like
they're showing the appearance of being
a weak leader, like in how they in how
they say things and how they do things.
But behind the scenes, it's not really
like that. It is actually like an
authoritarianism. And now you have a
strong man, you know, whether you look
here or in other countries like you
said, who can come up and be more, I
don't know, outward about whether or not
they're authoritarian. Does that make
sense? It does. And it's actually a very
fair observation, right? Even if you
look in the United States, Obama was
like that, right? Obama gave the public
image that he was, you know, a man of
the people and he was inspirational and
he was uniting, right? But then behind
the scenes, he hit that drone, baby.
Let's go. Exactly. He was writing
executive orders at a faster rate than
any other president before him. He was
bombing people using presidential
authority. He was a strong strong leader
in the back end. Right. And I think
that's a little bit of what the
Democratic party was. So, the liberal
party, the the the Democrats were hoping
to get out of Biden. Um it's I I
certainly expected another Obama
presidency when Biden was in office. But
he didn't run this the country anything
like Obama. He had all of the all of the
cushion and none of the pushing, I
guess, if you will. Oh, I like that. Who
Who do you think was running the country
while he was running? I don't think
anybody was around the country. I think
nobody. I think Biden had an opinion 50%
of the time and he forgot what his
opinion was the other 50% of the time. I
think the Democrats were trying to groom
the country for the next Democratic
leader. I think they got stuck with
Camala Harris. I mean, it was a
disaster, right? It you it has to be a
disaster. I don't I already know all the
Trump fans out there are going to get
pissed off. Trump is not the best choice
for the United States. He's the best
choice of what we were given, but he's
not the best choice for the United
States. Right. Yeah, the broken process
made it so we had to choose between two
people. One that was force-fed to us,
right? Camala Harris and the other one
who had been voted out by the majority
of people in 2020, right? And I mean
Trump had the balls to run again after
losing, which is a big thing, right?
Camala Harris had the balls to lose an
election after being endorsed by the
previous president. That's another
thing. But we're seeing I think it all
boils down to our original our original
thesis that has been the theme
throughout throughout our conversations.
The world is is ready for strong,
powerful, publicly authoritative
figures. It's just a phase, but we go
through this phase over and over again.
So you're looking at it strictly
logically. It's not like an endorsement
of any of that. It's just a nature of
like how the pendulum swings. Correct.
Human beings are stupid. We're stupid
animals, right? We are smart in terms of
building technology, but we're really
stupid in terms of survival, right? The
fact that we have survived is kind of
shocking. It speaks to the fact that we
are so cerebrally oriented, right? When
you corner a human, they often times
give up. That's why criminals exist.
When you corner an animal, they fight
hard, even if it's a squirrel, right?
It's it's incredible to see that
humankind has dominated the way that it
has. But then when you watch our
evolution, you can see how much of our
dominance has come from our brain and
not our body. Especially when you go all
the way back to like chromagnet man,
right? Where had the small brain and big
muscles and now we've got big brains and
small muscles. Uh and then when you look
at the the cross-section of the world,
the wealthiest countries, what do they
look like? They look fat and bloated,
right? Yeah. your Middle Eastern
collegiate countries, your European
monarchy countries, the United States,
but then you look at your third world
countries that are starving and those
are hard-bodied people that live a hard
existence. So, you can really see we
thrive on our brain and as a result of
that, like the brain is one of the
easiest things to manipulate because it
like you've been saying since we sat
down, you can look one way and people
will believe the way you look is true.
Yeah. It's interesting though because
even if you look at like the poverty
side of the United States for example,
you know, we're living in a time now
where we have like an obesity epidemic
among the poor as well. Like it goes
across the board. So it's almost like
counterintuitive in a way to some of the
stuff you're saying. I I agree with what
you're saying, but it's like we've
gotten things so as backwards here that
that it it sometimes feels like it was
set up that way so this pendulum could
swing. So you could get like an RFK in
there cuz he's got to clean up all the
red dye and all that. You know what I
mean? Yeah. It's If you've never
traveled the world, it's pretty amazing.
You you can actually get fresh produce
cheaper than uh processed food almost
everywhere else except the United
States. And so it's it's mindboggling
this exa this exact example you're
talking about that that poor people have
obesity issues because the only food
they can afford is processed food. It's
just it's really do I think that there's
some master puppet maker that put it in
motion? No. The government is way too
incompetent for master puppet makers. If
there's anything I hope that we've
learned, especially in the three years
that we've been talking, it's that you
can believe in conspiracies if you're a
dumbass or you can just you can
subscribe to the fact that that the
government is a broken fat thing. I
mean, Doge has come in and shown how
broken and fat the government is. And
what do you think of that? I mean, I
think it's a Doge I think it's a good
move. Whether or not it's going to work
is a different story, right? Because the
government the government is old and and
archaic and it's set in its ways. It's
really hard to come in and break that
whole system and rebuild it, which I
think is part of the reason why why Elon
Musk came in and broke part of it and
then he was like, "Fuck this. Let's just
call that victory and I'm out of here."
That's dude, that's a CI has happened.
That's a CIA move. You come in, you
realize that broken, you try to fix it,
and then you're like, I can't fix this.
So, how do I get out of this clean? How
do I get out of this looking good? I
say, I've done the best I can do. Now,
it's over to you, right? Claim victory.
Bug out the back door. I mean, I think
optically, we've talked about this on a
few podcasts. It's
not like I love the idea of Doge. I love
the idea of coming in and cutting waste
and finding, you know, like whether it
be the US A stuff or all the other
things that we waste money on. That's
great. And I appreciate that. Like Elon
wants to do that. The optics to me, and
it's a shame we have to worry about
this, but the optics of the richest guy
in the country who was also like the
biggest donor to the incoming president
being the actual guy who then goes in
and implements that isn't the best.
If you're focused on optics, right,
which is a smart thing to focus on, but
most most Americans aren't smart enough
to focus on the actual reality of what's
there, right? They look at Elon Musk and
they're like, SpaceX, he found a way to
make commercial space cheaper than
government space. He's he's
outperforming NASA. And then they see uh
Tesla and they're like, vehicles, that
was something that nobody could do and
he figured that out. PayPal, like he
found a way to make online transactions.
That's how most Americans see Elon Musk.
They don't now. Yeah, dude. I know that
you have the pulse on a subset of
America, right? America is gigantic. 330
million people. If you just follow the
8020 rule, if you just follow the basic
8020 rule, right, that means 80% of the
whole don't understand what's going on. 20%
20%
do. Yeah. But people still because he
got and I'm not blaming him for this.
He's allowed to do this. But like
because he got so involved in the
highest political process and was vocal
and out there about that, there is now
like a a a break with him. I would agree
with your logic when it comes to like
Twitter like two years ago or something.
It's like a subset of the population's
on Twitter. The rest of it, you know,
whatever the hell is going on there. But
now he's in the middle of the actual
current presidency and the buildup to
that which was winning the election. And
so there are people I mean you see these
people now there's crazy people who are
going around and just attacking Teslas
like that. So I think I think your point
would have been more valid like a year
ago but now it's hard for me to say that
there's that more than just a that
there's not more than just a little
subset of people that view him as like
you know controversial or something like
that. Like I it feels like it's more.
Yeah. Lots of people find him as
controversial but that doesn't mean
people think that he shouldn't be in the
seat that he's in supporting the federal
government. Right. What we're I I
believe that what we're really seeing
among the the majority of voting
Americans, right? Because that's that's
essentially what we're talking about.
The majority of voting Americans see or
believe that shifting away from
government process and more towards
typical business process is going to be
better for our country in the long run.
Again, whether or not we stay
businessoriented or whether we stay uh
government oriented is yet to be
determined. But the fact that we voted a
businessman into the presidency, the
fact that we've supported that
businessman bringing business cronies
into offices like Secretary of Defense,
DNI, Doge, like he's not bringing in
career government people. And for the
most part, people may be talking about
it, but no one's like doing anything to
stop him. Even even the Senate is
approving the nominations, right? So you
you're seeing that people are willing to
take this shift into can we can we run
the country like a like a business.
Arguably that's what the forefathers
tried to do in the beginning. Even our
original pilgrims that came to the
United States, the founders. Oh, you're
going to the pilgrims. People that
landed on Plymouth Rock, they were [ __ ]
they were they were contractors. They
were business people. They weren't
trying to build a new government. They
weren't trying to escape persecution
only. They were also taking a business
deal to go across the ocean, make a farm
and and send their produce back to
England and get paid for it. Yeah. I
mean, it it is interesting the the vibe
shift we've seen and and you're hinting
at it right here when when you're
talking about this stuff. It's like you
went from Trump being the low of the
low, you know, post January 6 or
whatever and leaving office to like it
was a a very strong decision to get him
into office. I mean, he won that
election handily and there was, you
know, mandates, a strong word, but like
pretty close to it when you look at how
the voting block changed county to
county across the country where people
were just flipping for more. And again,
also to your earlier point, it was more
like things just got so bad that they're
like, "Well, this can't be worse. It
can't be worse."
It's so true. It's so true. And I think
to a certain extent when you look at his
current approval ratings and you look at
like how Russia's handling him right now
and how Netanyahu is handling him right
now, like you can see that
that the world understands that the race
for the presidency happens once every
four years. And it's beneficial to kind
of keep your mouth shut during the race
because then after the race is over.
Yes. This guy's the one in office and
you have to you have to you can figure
your reputation out after that. Right.
So some countries took action in the
leadup like you saw China manipulate
Taiwan during the Taiwanese elections
right before the US elections. And then
you saw China choose its approach during
the presidential elections. And and
following that you also saw Russia do
the same thing. You saw Biden do the f
the same thing with Ukraine, giving them
weapons to strike into Russia right
before he left the presidency. You saw
Biden pardon his own whole family right
before he lost the presidency, too. So,
you see all these people making their
final moves because they know come that
November election day were locked in
place for four years. Yeah. Now, I want
to go to the Russia stuff and some of
the wars where we started this tangent,
but I I don't want to lose in there some
of the stuff that like Doge was working
on that made news, which obviously
includes US A. So, that guy Mike Benz,
Mike Mercedes-Benz, as I call him, was
going around on every podcast talking
about this for a while, even before that
broke. Like to his credit, he was one of
the dudes saying like, "Dude, what the
like you know, we're wasting $10,000
here and $10 million there on X, Y, and
Z, and it's really just like this
useless soft power or whatever." My
question for you is, well, first, did
you ever deal with anything related to
US aid when you were allegedly in CIA,
where you allegedly aren't anymore?
I love the allegedly. Uh, yeah, I had a
lot of chance to work with USAD. Um, I
will say this. I loved working with
USAD. I loved the people at USAID. I
loved the mission at
USAD, particularly during the years that
I was serving, right? Pre204, pre- first
Trump, right? Because soft power was the
name of the game back then. Soft power
was everything. Can you define that for
people who aren't familiar? Yeah. So, so
there's two types of power that are
essentially the foundations for leverage
in the national security infrastructure.
soft power and hard power. Hard power is
what we glorify in our movies, right?
It's guns and tanks and bullets and
threats and all the stuff, drones flying
up against the Iranian border. That's
all hard power, right? All this that's
going to hurt and kill people. Soft
power is the back end of influence. It's
investing in schools, investing in uh in
hospitals, teaching people micro
finance, helping them to develop their
own uh economies, right? World War II,
fantastic example. Everything that
happened to to destroy the Nazis was
hard power. Once the Nazis and the
Japanese were neutralized, everything
after that was soft power. Rebuilding
the Japanese infrastructure was soft
power. Rebuilding Germany was soft
power. All the loans, all the debt that
we forced on the UK, that's all soft
power. The bu the building of NATO was
soft power. Right? NATO's 100 almost
100% committed or almost 100% reliant on
the US military-industrial complex to
buy their weapons and and develop their
new technology for modern day European
weapons. All right, that one I'm a
little confused why that's considered
soft power though because what because
without America, NATO is less strong
than it really but they're a military
organization. They're they're they are a
cooperative that promises military
support, right? But the majority of what
they buy for that military support is
Americanmade or American designed or
based off American tech. Okay. Right. I
see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. So
Germany Germany puts 2% into their
military uh defense budget. Like France
puts three. Poland puts four. We put
10,4 million.
We put like 13 or 18%. Right? And then
we force Europe to spend their allotted
budget. Why do we force Europe to spend
their allotted budget? Because they're
buying from us, right? Why are we That's
why we're so supportive of Israel.
That's why we're so supportive of the
Middle East, the collegiate countries,
because they're buying their weapons
from us. Oh, yeah. Was that the whole
thing with with when when Kosogible got
whacked by NBS? It the reason we held
out was because we're doing all kinds of
arms deals. Correct. That's the whole
reason we put up with Saudi Arabia. Even
remember when Biden called Saudi Arabia,
what the did he call them? He had he's
like he's a tyrant or something like
that, right? And then he had to go ask
him for oil like two months later. And
that's the whole relationship, right?
That's the whole relationship with the
Middle East. So, uh, so all of that is
kind of at play here. And we've got to
keep that in mind as the current
reality. USAD was was critical in an age
of soft power. When the belt and road
initiative was happening, that's Chinese
soft power. When Russia was investing
across Africa, that's Russian soft
power, right? So, everybody was
investing in soft power from maybe 299
2000ish until until the late uh 2010s,
mid210s. While we were prosecuting a
conflict, the global war on terror, the
rest of the world was like, we'll let
America be the ones, you know, wielding
the guns and weapons. Nobody wants to go
head-to-head against hard power when
America spun up its war machine. So,
they all invested in soft power. USAD
had a place then. Now we're in a then
now we're in a place where there's tons
of authoritarian rule. What's soft power
going to do when an authoritarian can
come in and just push you out? It's a
different world now. They can push you
out in places where where they come into
a situation where they can either
immediately fix the economy or the
economy is stable though. What do you
that's what that's what Trump's tariffs
are. People misunderstand these tariffs,
right? Explain them to us. It's pissing
me off because you got all these
economists out there and you got all
these voices that want to say that
Trump's gonna destroy our economy. The
Andy Bamonte says no. Andy Yeah, Andy
says no. The the tariffs have nothing to
do with generating tax revenue. That's
what they're that's what we tell
everybody they're supposed to do because
if like at a at an elementary level, we
all understand tariffs cost money.
Tariffs earn money. So, you got to give
that to the 80% that don't understand
the real purpose of the tariffs. That's
right. The actual purpose of the tariffs
is because now by inflating everybody's
expenses, you have artificial leverage
to get what you want because you can
say, "Hey, if you if you cooperate with
me, I'll take your tariffs away."
Does that make sense? Anybody Anybody
who's ever bought [ __ ] jeans that
were on sale or shoes that were on sale
understands this. The shoes that you buy
don't cost $150 to make. They cost like
$25 to make. And then the price is
artificial. So they can say your $25
pair of shoes is worth $150, but today
they're on sale for $70. And then you go
out and you buy the [ __ ] shoes.
That's all these tariffs are. He's just
inflating the prices everywhere to get
everyone to to acquies to his demands to
lower the tariffs. You're seeing it in
India. You're seeing it in China. You're
seeing it all over Southeast Asia.
You're seeing it across Europe. People
are bitching about it, but that's
exactly what it's supposed to do. It's
it's basic economics based on Porter's
five principles of power. He's just
executing it as a government. Yes. Yeah.
It's that's probably that's a good way
to put it. We're going to come back to
USA. Everyone, don't worry. I want to
stay with this though. So, I think I
totally get what he's trying to do. It
makes 100% sense. I think the marketing
behind it and the speed and I don't know
like kind of bull in a china shop no pun
intended with which he's done it has
given him undue blowback because
obviously like it economically shocked
the system. Now, do you think there was
a way though to maybe slowly I don't
want to say like make it so obvious like
country by country or something like
that, but more slowly ice the roll out
here over like an 18-month period or
something like that so that you kind of
you you accomplish the same end goal,
but maybe it takes a little longer and
you don't have the pain in the short
term. This is a a perfect example of the
difference between Donald Trump and your
your typical American politician. Your
typical American politician, the
presidents that we've seen going back as
long as professional politics have
existed, spend months making promises
and then they underdel. Right. Right. So
they slow roll everything because they
put so much effort into the PR machine.
They put so much effort into getting the
hearts and minds of the American people
and ensuring that they're not going to
like ruin the midcycle elections and
blah blah blah because the parties are
always in control. Yeah. So you see you
we've watched as slow things never
really actually make a difference and
we've watched it for a long time.
Obamacare was fast, right? And lots of
people didn't like it. Lots of people
did like it, but it was fast and
disruptive. Yes. It also set a precedent
now for hey, presidents can do fast and
disruptive things when they control both
the House and the Senate. And when did
you get that done? Like 200 2008. Oh
yeah, I think it was 2010. It's like
within a year. Yeah, it was fast. So
that set a precedent that was then used
by all subsequent presidents. Donald
Trump's just following the same pattern.
Now he knows, could he have slowed it
down? Yes. Could they have put a bunch
of time into the PR machine and got in
the hearts and minds of people?
Probably. But how much damage to the
economy would have been done in that
period of time? Any CEO who's ever had
to turn a business around understands
that you can't you can't worry about
people's feelings when you're trying to
save the business. when you're trying to
turn the business and make it
profitable, you cut what you've got to
cut. You do what you've got to do. You
work as hard as you have to work to make
it happen. The push back there would be
that part of his promise in coming in is
he's like, I'm going to fix the economy.
It's going to be great. I'm going to be
rich. And in the short term, you have
people like the guys who are going to
make money on this hopefully what is a
short-term economic downturn. We've seen
right here. And I'm just really talking
about the stock market at a high level.
Like the guys who are going to make
money are the people who are already
rich. It's the hedge fund guys of the
world because they know like we're gonna
lose 20 25% buying opportunity. The
people who lose more are the middle
class and people who have 401ks to worry
about and they're trying to retire by 65
and they're 61 right now and suddenly
they're down 20% in their portfolio.
It's just human nature. They sell and
then they get [ __ ] And a lot of those
people are the people that voted for
them. So I agree with you. all these
politicians that make these promises.
They say, "We're going to roll this
out." And then they do it real slowly
and they keep on like and then and then
and then and then and then until they
don't do anything. But if you did have a
set like kind of not that you'd share it
with the world to say here's our chess
moves what we're going to do, but you
had a set I'm just using a round number
18month plan or something like that
where you could kind of go like in this
area of the world than that area of the
world maybe that could work better. No, it
it
strategically for the purposes of
leverage, it would not work better. For
the purposes of public support, sure, it
might work better. But what does Donald
Trump also know the day that he took
office? He's got four years. Yeah, he
can piss off everybody, right? There's a
there's a concept that we have at the
agency called um the the last impression
is the impression that lasts. The last
impression is the impression that lasts.
everybody, your middle class, which I
laugh at because if you are trying, if
you're part of the middle class, you've
already lost. If you're trying to be
part of the middle class, you've already
lost. Like the middle class is just it's
a it's an artificial bubble that we talk
about that we glorify that actually
doesn't have any real impact on economy.
Why why do you say that? Because the the
top 2% are the ones that handle the vast
majority. They handle 98% of the money.
Why do you say they've lost though?
Strictly on a monetary basis, they've
lost because they don't have the power
they want to have. They've lost on
several different levels, right? Your
average middle class employee works
their ass off what 50 hours a week, 60
hours a week to make $200,000 a year,
right? When you Yeah. if that when you
actually break down their per hour rate,
they don't make that much more per hour
than somebody who's not part of the
middle class but who only works 35 hours
or 30 hours a week. That's why you've
seen this move towards young people who
want to be partially retired, right?
because they understand like, oh, I
could be 50 earning $55 an hour working
70our weeks or I could be, you know, 30
earning $35 an hour working 10 hours a
week and I'd rather, you know, make $35
an hour and live in Costa Rica than live
in a big house in Boston and work my ass
off all the time, right? Yeah. That's
that's that's why I say that's just one
of many reasons why the middle class
hurts. The middle class is smart enough
to make money, but not smart enough to
manage their own money. So then they
have to give it to somebody in a 401k or
somewhere else for them to manage their
money. But they can't afford the most
skilled investors. So they have to go
with whoever the bulk investors are. And
the bulk investors don't really care
about you as an individual. They care
about their entire portfolio. So you
just see it. You see it over and over
again. So who's going to make the
faster, stronger financial decision? The
most elite investors. The most elite
investors are handling money for the
superw wealthy. The super wealthy know
how to manage their own money. So they
know how to pick the right people.
middle class doesn't get to do any of
that. They go with whatever the 401k is
that their that their employer provided.
They say, "I'll put 80% in high risk and
20% in, you know, low risk or whatever
else based on my age." They're already
they're already lost, right? Like the
the real divide in the United States
isn't racial. It's socio-economic. Oh,
of course. Yeah. Well, if you say of
course, then you then you already sub
you already understand what I'm saying
when I say the middle class is lost. I
see what you're saying. I think you're
putting it in in a little bit of a
exaggerated way. And what I mean by that
is you're strictly looking at looking at
it from what is their effect on the
economy and therefore what our country
does on a decision-making basis versus
what about everything else in life,
including the things that their labor
does support, right? Because it's not
like what else do you value?
Statistically though, Andy,
statistically, you're never going to
have a society where 50% of people are
wealthy as [ __ ] and making decisions.
It's just math. Correct. Right. So, the
vast majority of America is a part of
the middle class or lower class, right?
And these are the people that are making
up the voting blocks and these are the
people that are hoping that their next
generation has a better opportunity than
they do. So, I think when we say like
they're already lost, it's it's
overlooking like the looking towards the
future and the opportunity and to be
able to build the American dream and
have a bigger percentage than maybe 2%
at the top. You see what I'm saying? I
see what you're saying. I just don't I
don't understand outside of the
ideological like fluff that's coming out
of your mouth right now. I'm not seeing
anything objective. What is it that's
like what is it in the American dream
that you believe people are trying to
achieve if it isn't wealth? They're
trying to achieve what? Wealth is wealth
is a huge part of it. Huge part of it.
That's the economy, man. For sure. So
then what's the second largest? Let's
say what's the third largest? What are
some other things in the American dream
that people are trying to achieve? Well,
I think wealth helps with your comfort,
right? Which which helps with number
two, part of the American dream is being
able to live free and happy, right?
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of
happiness. I think that's a huge tenant
of it. And to be fair, if you're working
40 hours a week on a job, paying $10 an
hour, you don't feel very free. you
don't have financial freedom and you
probably have less you're more likely to
have less happiness. Same thing is true
for the person who's making $200,000 a
year working 65 hours a week if they're
working 65. That's there are some people
that do. You're right. And but I'm I'm
just saying once again, you're if you
think that it's rare for people to work
60 hours a week, I don't think it's
rare. I'm saying there are it's you're
more likely if you're making $200,000 a
year in this country that is not a
business that you run yourself. are more
likely to be working 50 55 something
like that. But same thing is true
though. You're working 55 hours a week.
Let's just say you're making 200k.
That's that sacrifice of the extra 15
hours a week that you're working over a
40-hour week job takes away from your
life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness
just like you're talking about. Sure.
Right. That's it is a very small
contingent of people who work like
actually work in a closed environment
responsible to other people less than 20
hours and make millions a year, right?
That's a very small contingent. Most
people the wealthier they get, the less
time they have to spend pursuing the
other things, right? The wealth is what
they're pursuing. So when you say that
there's other parts of the American
dream, all I'm saying is all the other
parts of the American dream rely on the
foundation of wealth, right? And that's
that's just the reality of it. If people
don't like that, they're allowed not to
like it, but it doesn't change the
facts. When did you start seeing the
world this way? CIA. 100% CIA. I had I
believed in ideology. I was I was an
ideologue. That's why I joined CIA.
Joined the Peace Corp.
That's fair. Fair on brand. Fair. Let's
stay on brand. That's why I tried was on
brand. That's why I tried to serve the
betterment of the world and humankind,
right? By by signing up for the Peace
Corp, by applying to the Peace Corp. But
when I actually joined CIA and I saw
that that human beings work the same
way, right? And I'll be the first to
admit CIA trained me and I rejected the
training. I was like, "This is You
rejected it?" Oh, yeah. I was like,
"This is this is bologoney." Just like
you are now, right? You're like, "Oh,
no. There's more to it. It's more
nuanced. it's more complicated. What
about this and what about the American
dream and what about all like I used to
I totally was in the same boat and not
just me most of the recruits were like
what no people can't be that simple,
people can't be that stupid. people
can't be that predictable. And we go
through this training process and we we
exercise the skills. And even when you
go through the training part of the farm
and you you learn the skills and you
exercise the skills against role players
and against, you know, senior
intelligence officers and you're like,
"Okay, I'm I'm dancing the dance, but no
way is this real." It's kind of like
learning a foreign language. I don't
know if you've Have you learned a
foreign language? I used to speak
Italian really well. So, you learn a
foreign language and the and as you
learn it, you're thinking to yourself,
really, right? Like, oh, it it's just
it's not this word, it's that word. It's
not this word, it's that word. You just
you learn it based off of technicality.
But then you go to the country where
it's spoken and you realize, oh [ __ ]
this isn't a technicality. Like, this is
a real skill. It becomes real. It
becomes personal. you see your own flaws
and your own uh misunderstandings in the
language because even though you may be
getting straight A's in Italian for
three years in school, once you [ __ ]
land in Rome, you're like, I don't know
how to speak this language. Like, yeah,
they sing it. It's a natural it's a
natural flow. You can't be translating
in your head. 100% agree. Yeah. So,
anybody who's had a language experience
knows what that's like. Yes. That is
exactly what it's like to go to CIA. You
learn the technicalities of human
recruitment. You learn the
technicalities of motivations and
vulnerabilities. You learn the
technicalities of of getting people to
exchange uh information of value for
assets of value. You go through it and
you you learn the words and then you
actually deploy and it becomes super
real and you're like, "Holy [ __ ] this
was really how it works." And then when
you come back from an
operation, you're still in operation
mode. So you come back to the United
States, you come back to CIA
headquarters a lot of times and you
still need to get [ __ ] done. So then you
start using the same skills that you
used in abroad here at home and they
work here too. And now you can get what
kinds of skills like when it comes to
manipulating a budget and finance person
to approving your expense sheet faster
than somebody else who turned their
expense sheet in earlier than you did.
It's the same process as getting someone
to give you secrets overseas, right?
It's all about exchanging value. It's
all about building rapport. It's all
about developing social capital and
leveraging that social capital. It's
about understanding what makes people
feel excited and what makes them feel
guilty, what makes them feel powerful
and what makes them feel weak, and then
like pushing the chips on the board
around just enough. It's like the the
Zen raking garden thing. That's exactly
what it's like for every individual. You
rake this garden for that person and
then you you erase the garden and you
rake this garden for that person and you
erase the garden. It's it's it's all the
same rake. It's all the same square.
It's all the same sand. It just
literally works on every person. But you
rejected what CIA was teaching you when
I was when I was in the agency. Correct.
Yes. Correct. Like I learned it. I
believed it wasn't true. I tried to
fight against it. I tried to make it
work my own way. I was not popular at
CIA. That's why I love being not popular
out of CIA. It's like [ __ ] no matter
where I go, nobody likes Look at me like
I'm going to be surprised at that.
So, um, that's what makes it that's what
makes the whole plante thing really
funny to me because there's there's just
as many people inside CIA that hate it
every time I appear on podcast, right?
But, um, but my point is I I just I
didn't believe any of it. I I had to go
through the dance steps to get the
grades so that I could be deployed. But
then when I was deployed, that's when I
was like, well, [ __ ] this. They were
right. They were right. And that's not
the first time it's I've always been
kind of hard-headed that way. that CIA
CIA is why I play the game now for
everything else because I I just grew up
and I was like there's a game I got to
play it if I'm going to win. I mean, I'm
not a lawyer and I never went to law
school, but in speaking to a lot of
lawyers, they give you a similar story
about what happens to your brain when
you go there, which is they beat into
you like insane objectivity on
everything to the point of like removing
any and all emotions. And to the average
person, at least the way it's been
explained to me, maybe some lawyers in
the comments can help us out here. It's
like you reject that at first cuz you're
like, "Wait, no, hold on. There's
there's these are humans in the middle
of this thing." But the whole point is
that they're trying to prepare you for
you have a hearing at 9:00 a.m. Here's
what's happening. Here's the
technicalities that the law says that
you have to take care of for this.
Here's the potential outcomes. And you
have to be ready for both and not feel
anything about it. Correct. If you're
going to go to war with monsters, you
have to be a monster. Yeah. Right. You
have to be a monster. You have to be a
monster. Andy Bamonte. So if you're
going to You can't put a kinder, gentler
person against an SVR officer. Yes. You
can't you can't put a kindler gentler
person against a MSAD officer. You can't
put a kinder gentler person against an
MSS officer. They're going to get eaten
up. And then when an when a US
intelligence officer gets eaten up, the
US national uh security infrastructure
gets eaten up. And now Americans are
more at danger. So, it makes sense if
you're going to recruit somebody knowing
psychologically that they're capable of
making the shift. All you have to do is
force them to make the shift and then
you have a wall, right? And then you
have gladiators in arena, if you will,
in the in the world of intelligence,
right? But you learned I'd asked you
about this like where you got this
worldview and you said not till CIA. you
you started to see the world I don't
want to like dumb this down too much but
in a term of raw dollars and cents more
or less. Is that fair to say? Yeah. I
mean it's the dollars and cents piece
came later as I got more experienced
with CIA. At first I just saw it as a as
a series of inputs and outputs. And your
inputs are something as simple as what
you say, how you look, how you engage
somebody with physical like with body
language. That's those are all inputs
and you can get predictable outputs
based off of your inputs. And just
seeing that and seeing that regardless
of age, race, gender, sex, education
level is incredible, right? Like smiles
are universal, frowns are universal,
tears are universal, open arms are
universal, closed arms are universal.
It's just incredible how much we can
control the inputs all over the world
right now without even being able to
technically speak a language. Yeah. It's
like and and that's why like whenever
you talk about this stuff, people really
tune in
because you're learning things to go spy
on behalf of the United States and get
other people to commit treason by, you
know, getting them to flip for you. But
you're utilizing all the same things
that regardless of what we do, we're
going to need it in the world because
anything, whether it's business or even
science, whatever it could be, there
there is a level of if you cannot have
interpersonal human communication and
really get through to people, you ain't
going anywhere. Doesn't matter how smart
you are, right? All treason is is a
sale. And a sale, it's all it is. You're
selling people on the exchange of
government secrets for something that
you have. Whether it's Johnny Walker
Blue or whether it's cash or whether
it's gold bullion or whether it's
[ __ ] porn on a CD, right? You got
someone to flip with Johnny Walker Blue
and that's it. Have you had Johnny
Walker Blue? It's I mean I think so, but
that's it.
He was like, "All right, I just need a
bottle." All right, [ __ ] it. What do you
want? It's pretty secret. It's pretty
amazing what secrets people will tell
you for a good bottle of wine. A good
bottle of booze. But um but my point
there is
just treason is a sale. Mhm. You give me
secrets, I give you something in
exchange for secrets that you value,
right? What's a what is it when you're
pitching your book to a publicist? It's
the same [ __ ] thing, right? You're
trying to get their support, their
network, their press, their everything
in exchange for your story. It's just a
it's just a pitch. It's just a sale.
Whenever you're trying to get your boss
to say yes to your initiative, what is
that? It's just a pitch. It's just a
sale. You want your bosses to take the
risk to spend the time and money from
the company to put their own career on
the line in exchange for your idea to
reach fruition. Right? That's that's all
it is. All of life is business exchanges
like that. Prior to CI, I didn't see it
that way. Prior to CI, I still believed
in the right thing and the wrong thing,
right? Oh, it's the right thing to do
this. It's the wrong thing to do that.
It's a good idea to sell this. It's a
bad idea to sell that, right? Like we
all we're all ideologically driven
because when you when you come up
through the school system, ideology is
what's pummeled into your brain, right?
You've got to stand in line. You've got
to listen to your teacher. You've got to
do the right thing. You've got to be a
good person. You've got to whatever,
right? Especially if you also go through
some sort of social orientation through
a church or social orientation through
community or social orientation through
your ethnicity. if you belong to some
ethnic group uh that's that's celebrated
in the United States, right? So, you're
shaped by all these things as a kid.
That's all just ideology. It's not
objective pragmatism. And when it comes
to field operations, you've got to be
wildly objective. Does that turn off
though when you're not in a field
operation? Meaning, like, aren't you, we
never really talked about this, but
aren't you a religious guy? So, I I'm a
man of faith for sure, and I'm a dad.
Like, I've got lots of things that I can
be ideological about, but you don't
Yeah. You don't turn off the objective
side. Instead, you're you try to be um
what's the word? You try to balance the
two. I want my kids, for example, I I
want to encourage my kids artistic
endeavors. That's something I
ideologically want to be able to do. I
didn't get to do it as a kid. I got I
was forced into a world of like strict
rigid education. I want my kids to be
artists if they want to be artists and
athletes if they want to be athletes
and, you know, comedians or dancers or
whatever the hell they want to be. And
both of my kids are very
artistic, but at the same time, I
understand like they have to make money
someday. My parents understood the same
thing. So for my parents, they were
like, we're going to we're going to
belittle all of your artistic stuff and
we're going to encourage all of your
STEM stuff, right? That was the what was
the world I grew up in. A lot of people,
that your stepdad more or your mom?
Both. It was both. Yeah, that was both
for sure. And there's a lot of people
out there who know exactly what I'm
talking about. They love to paint. Mom
was like, "Yeah, you're good at
painting, but you need to be good at
math. You need to be good at reading.
You need to be good at writing." Right?
Oh, I'm glad that you like history.
You'll never get a good job in history.
I need you to do like, "Have you thought
about being an accountant or a lawyer
instead?" Right? Like, we've been
through that before. I don't want to do
that for my kids. I want to give them
space, but the objective side of me is
like, if I'm going to give them space,
somebody has to make the [ __ ] money,
which is a big part of why I'm so
aggressive with my company because I
want to build the trust fund that can
give my kids the space to explore
whatever their interests are. That's my
personal goal. Build the trust fund that
supports the kids to do whatever they're
going to do. Do you ever worry about
that causing like entitlement, though?
Maybe it does or maybe it doesn't. Like,
it's not my not mine to worry about.
What I can do is try to make sure that
they don't grow up with an entitled
mindset. Yeah. 13 years old, 12 years
old, like my oldest son is now. Like he
has a hard time thinking about anything
other than what every other 12-year-old
thinks about, right? When am I going to
play next? How do I get out of my
chores? Whatever else when they're 18,
19, 20 and they actually can understand
that concept. That's when real hard
parenting starts. How do you rectify
though? Like as you say, like being a
man of faith, but also being a guy who
I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I'm
saying this is just how you kind of
reflect it. Like also being a guy who's
like there's not really like good or bad
or especially all good or all. It's like
this is just how the world works and if
that guy's got to die because that makes
things better. Oh, [ __ ] well. So it's
actually a great question and one of the
things I've really loved doing is
reading the Bible since CIA. Right.
Since CIA. Yeah. Reading the Bible
before CIA was a cool experience.
Reading the Bible after CIA is a
mind-boggling experience. So, you
weren't reading it during? I had better
[ __ ] to do. Better [ __ ] to do during
All right. Please continue. Sorry. So,
so um if you really if you think about
some of the most famous quotes from the
Bible, right, there will be there will
be um poor
always, right? There will always be poor
people. That's as objective as it gets.
Why the hell are we trying to save them?
What did Jesus say to do with the oil?
Put oil on my feet. Don't save it for
others, right? Because it's it's it's
there's always going to be poor people.
There will never be enough oil for those
poor people, but to soo my head and
soothe my feet right now is worth your
oil, right? You go back through all of
the Old Testament and you've got
multiple examples of just war, multiple
examples of eradicating entire
populations just because a a prophet
believed that that was what God wanted
them to do, right? And it was justified.
You've got even among the tribes of uh
of Jews, you have tribes that were
better than other tribes, right? Hey
guys, if you haven't already subscribed,
please hit that subscribe button. It's a
huge huge help. Thank you. tribes that
were more important, more honorable,
given higher esteem than other tribes.
So, you can see this this pragmatism.
You can see the uh the hierarchy even
through the Bible when you look at it
through that objective lens. It's
teaching us to be objective. I would
argue and I have argued Jesus and many
of his teachings, the fundamentals of
espionage are in Jesus's original
teaching. The fundamentals of espionage
are from Jesus. That's what I would say.
I would Can you please explain this? So
there's a phenomenal uh story where
where Jesus is teaching a parable and he
says that the the place to sit when you
go to a guest's table, right? You go to
a guest's table, the most the best thing
to do is sit at the end of the table and
then wait for the wait for the host to
invite you to sit at their right hand
side. Right? What's he teaching us
there? He's teaching us to act humble,
to be rewarded for the humility that you
demonstrate, to actually elevate
yourself to a status, a so a higher
social status. That's a powerful lesson,
right? Everybody out there now, the
average Joe is out there competing to
try to prove that they're worth the seat
at the side of the master. That's what
they all want to do. That's why
Instagram exists. That's why Tik Tok
exists. That's why you see a thousand
people, you know, all competing to be on
reality TV shows because everybody wants
to be famous. They all want to be, hey,
I'm worth being at the right hand side
of the master. Right? Jesus is saying,
"No, put yourself at the end of the
table. Let the master invite you up."
Because one of the things he says that's
powerful about that isn't just that you
sit at the right hand of the master.
It's that every [ __ ] other person at
the table, that's direct quote from the
Bible. Every [ __ ] other person, I was
going to let it go. Everybody else at
the table watches the master point you
out and they watch you walk past them.
And all of that is additional influence
and power, right? Yeah. It's just who
was Jesus Christ? He was the He was God
the Father. He's part of the Holy
Trinity come to earth as a man. If
that's not disguise, I don't know what
disguise is. No, you're taking it
literally. And then he lived among the
people, right? Carrying flesh and blood
and a death, right? Carrying a life that
could be taken away. All of that is a
perfect parallel with what it's like to
actually live and work undercover.
Everybody around you believes you're one
thing. You know you're not. And even
though you break cover with some people,
right? Just like Jesus broke cover and
he told he told the people he was the
son of God. Even though you tell a few
people what your true affiliation is,
there's still a shadow of doubt and
they're still like, "Yeah, are you
really?" That's why he was denied.
Right. Paul denied him. Peter denied
him. Somebody denied him. Peter, I think
it was Peter. Yeah. Three times. Yeah.
Right. So he was
denied even though Peter arguably knew
the truth. So it's so powerful, man.
There's so And that's just like two
quick examples. If you actually wanted
to sit down and get geeked out with like
a parallel Bible, we could find lots of
examples. I never heard someone explain
it like that. That is interesting though
because it's also like you look at
history that's powers cultivated by the
guy who talks last two which is very
similar aspect to to what what you're
saying. And I was I was talking with
someone about a really big guy that they
they had dealt with like like a big time
person. Everyone would recognize him
recently. And he explained that, you
know, this dude if he sat down to the
SAT, you know, you get like a 1250. He's
smart, but he's not like a genius or
something like that. But he's like, no
matter what meeting you go into or what
the context is, doesn't matter if
there's three people there or 15 people
there, he's the last [ __ ] to
talk. And it's not just because he's
waiting his turn. He's listening and
watching every single thing everyone
else does. And it just puts everyone
right in the palm of his hand at the end
of it. And it's and it goes back to it.
It's like the most insecure person in
the room is the one who's trying to be
the loudest. Not like, you know, make
people laugh or whatever, but the person
who feels like they got to be the center
of attention, whereas the powerful guy
is the one who walks in and says, "I'll
let people I'm comfortable with who I
am. I'll let people land where they are
on me, and it'll probably do well for
me." I think that's I mean, it's a fair
way of looking at it. I would argue that
it's not just about being comfortable in
your own skin. Again, that's a
subjective thing, right? Being
comfortable. It means it's how you feel.
Subjective has to do with how you feel,
not not measurable facts, right? So, the
person who's like, I'm comfortable with
who I am, so I'm not going to speak.
That's all well and good. If that's what
you value, then let me pat you on the
head and tell you congratulations.
Congratulations. You're confident.
You're one of the people that probably
bought one of those books about
confidence or watched the TEDex talk
about confidence. Hooray. You're
confident. You're [ __ ] not confident,
right? We don't want confidence. That's
something that that we've been sold.
What we want is competence. We want
competence. If we have competence, we
don't feel the need to act confident
because we [ __ ] know we're good,
right? But when you don't know you're
good, then you're looking for
confidence. You're like, "Oh, please
give me the confidence because I doubt
my competence." Oh, I agree with this.
What I would argue with is the is that
the person who sits in the room and
doesn't talk understands that they're
getting information superiority of
what's going on in the room. Exactly.
Even if they don't feel confident, they
still objectively are getting the most
information without creating any
disruption to the flow of information in
the room. So there's two benefits there.
You get the most information and you're
the least likely to be remembered for
being present in the first place. So now
you can walk out of that room and
everybody else in the room when they
remember the meeting will remember all
the [ __ ] who were talking and not
the person who collected all the
information and left. And that's where
the subjective confidence doesn't matter
because the end result to everyone else
is that you're you know what I mean? So
like how you feel I guess that's like up
to you. But I see what you're saying.
Yes. So you read the Bible a lot after
CIA. Like when I say after CIA I mean
after going through the farm, right? Not
like not after my CIA career. Oh, so
after going through the farm. I've been
a man of faith ever since I joined the
military. Right. I was saved during
during my time in the military. You were
saved? Yeah. My second my rebirth. What
what happened? I was I was a a good
friend of mine actually. So I was I was
raised in a very non-religious house. I
would call it an anti-religious house.
My mother was a Mexican Catholic who
hated the Catholic church in the way
that so many Mexicans get angry at the
Catholic Church, but still exercised
Catholic practices, right? She still had
Catholic guilt and she still made sure
we went to church on Easter and
Christmas, that kind of stuff. So, but
she was like really opposed to organized
religion. My dad Viet my stepdad was a
Vietnam vet who also came back and
basically was like God doesn't exist.
He's not real after what I saw in
Vietnam. None of that shit's real. So I
was raised in a household that that
taught myself and my sisters if you
believe in God you're weak. If you
believe in religion, you're weak, right?
You're stupid. It's the opium for the
masses. You know, you're going to be
ignorant your whole life if you actually
believe in some kind of religion. So 8 n
years old, that was the message. That
was the lesson. So I'm not I'm not going
to be stupid. I'm not going to be weak,
so religion must be wrong. So, I was
just paring that [ __ ] all through my
like young adult life. I joined the Air
Force at the Air Force Academy at 18.
Mhm. Um, my first year at the Air Force
Academy, there's a a guy that lived next
to me, his name is Meredith Jessup, and
uh, and Jessup was, I think he was from
Alabama, African-American guy, big on big
big
Jesusloving American, right? And I
treated I treated Jessup like [ __ ] all
the time. It's like, "Don't you know
you're stupid? Don't you know you're
ignorant? Don't you know it's just it's
it's, you know, the opium of the
masses?" Just paring all this [ __ ] to
him. And for a whole year, this poor son
of a [ __ ] lived next to me. And for a
whole year, this guy never like in my in
front of me at least, he never cracked.
He never fought back. He never argued
with me. He never did anything except
just show patience and forgiveness and
love and his own opinion. By the end of
probably six months, I was like, "This
there's something to this Jessup guy."
Like, we didn't call each other by our
first name. Like, there's something to
this guy. Like, how how is he so kind?
How is he so friendly? How can life
happen to him all the time, right? He's
also trying to figure out dating. He's
also trying to figure out life at the
academy. He's also passing and failing
tests just like I am. But he doesn't
seem to be like nearly as volatile or
dynamic in his day-to-day as I am.
What's this guy doing different? I was
like, could it be his faith? That seed,
that seed stuck with me the entire time
I was at the academy. And I just I
started observing people who were
Christian, people who were Mormon,
people who were Catholic, people who
were like devout in their faith versus
people who were, you know, culturally
part of their faith, cultural Catholics,
cultural Jews, that kind of thing. And I
kept seeing this trend where I was like,
these [ __ ] people of faith are like
stable and the rest of us are less
stable. Fast forward to I graduate. I
graduate and one of my closest friends,
a guy named Ian Slasnik, um, gets
married right out of the college, right
out of the Air Force Academy, which is
to me absolutely insane. You go four
years without
women and then three months, idiot.
Good. More for you and me.
Three months after you graduate, you
lock yourself down to one of them. I was
like, that's insane. Oh, statistically,
it'll be a few years.
But uh but I wanted to do something
really special for Ian's wedding
present. And Ian was one of those men of
faith, those stable like God-fearing men
that I that I had been with for four
years, a close one of my best friends at
the Air Force Academy. So I was like,
you know what? I'm going to I'm going to
read the Bible. I'm going to journal my
way through the entire Bible and I'm
going to give that to him for a wedding
gift. Right? So I was like, I have 14
months to do this. Let's make it happen.
So, I actually, this is, as stupid as
this sounds, cuz I was I'm still
artistic in my soul, I learned
calligraphy so that I could write him a
journal in calligraphy, journaling my
journey through the Bible. And that's
what I did. I built it for him and I
wrote it for him and I gave it to him on
his wedding day 14 months later. And it
was in the middle of Psalms that I that
I took Jesus into my own heart that I
was like, "Holy shit." Like, I I am
convinced now. I see what this is. I see
God as the perfect or Jesus is the
perfect propiation for our sin. I see
why I believe what I believe and how I
believe it wrong and and I believe in
Jesus Christ. So, I was saved. Just
happened like that. It I mean to you it
sounds like it just happened to me. It
built up. It was a journey through the
Bible, right? Hearing God's voice and
taking it to prayer and and experiencing
it myself. Um, and I gave that journal
to Ian on his wedding day and like he
flipped through three or four pages,
heard the story, like started crying on
his wedding day and gave it right back
to me and said, "You can't you can't
give this to me. Like, this has to be
for you." And to this day, I still have
it. My wife is actually, when I met my
wife, who's Buddhist, my wife saw it,
she read it, she was like, "We can never
lose this." So, she's created digital
copies, she's scanned copies, she's got
the thing protected like, and she's
still Buddhist. And she's she is still
Buddhist. But this is another reason why
I'm I'm so firm in my faith because I
watch my wife ask questions and engage
in more Christian thinking every day.
Christian thinking. Yeah. Rather than
Buddhist thinking. Right. What's Can you
explain the
the cross the cross path there? So I'm
less familiar with Buddhism. So
Christians Christians believe that there
was a man named uh named Jesus Christ
who came to earth who died on the cross
without committing a sin as the perfect
repudiation for the rest of us. Meaning
his sin replaced all of our sin so we
can go to heaven if we believe that he
was sinless on the cross. Right? He died
for us so that we can be eligible for
heaven. Otherwise we live in a fallen
world. We belong to the devil.
God wants us to come to him. Jesus is
the way that we come to him. I mean, I'm
sure that there are theologians out
there that can say it better. Say it in
the comments. I'm the one on the
podcast. That's that's my
understanding. Buddhists Buddhists
believe every decision you individually
make creates karma. Yes. Karma that
helps or karma that hurts you. And that
you will be responsible for whatever the
karmic repercussions are of your
decisions. Right? There's no person who
came that that makes your sins clean.
That's what we believe in Buddhism. You
have to make your own karma clean. So if
you're a [ __ ] [ __ ] right now and
you die, then you're reborn again and
you have to pay the penalty of being a
[ __ ] [ __ ] in previous life that
you don't remember, right? So all the
karma that you built up, all the debt
that you built up, you have to pay back
in some future life. And then you're
reborn, right? You don't remember your
rebirth. You don't remember why you're
suffering, but you are suffering. So
then that gives them comfort. Oh, I'm
suffering now because I'm paying back
karma from a previous life. And hurrah,
I'm going to have a better life the next
time I come back. Not that I'll remember
my new life. So it's this constant like
uh balance book, this checkbook that
goes back and forth. And then there's
this idea of Buddhahood and
enlightenment where you can become
enlightened. And during that
enlightenment, you understand how the
universe works. And you can go on to
Nirvana and you can be, you know, a
bodhisattva and be uh and be clear and
be outside of the cycle of karma and
etc, etc. Again, um some Buddhist
theologian can correct me in the
comments because I'm the one talking.
That's that is my understanding of both.
What I have found is that my kids,
myself, my family asks less questions
about Buddhism and more questions about
Christianity. I see. Right. And as we go
through our life, there are areas where
we see the idea of forgiveness and the
idea of of, you know, intelligent design
and uh and a a god creator. We see these things
things
um represented in daily life more than
we see the pillars of
Buddhism. And as a result of that, my
wife is still Buddhist. I'm not going to
call her a Christian by any means, but
she certainly shows more and more
interest and curiosity in the Christian
faith every day. Like it it's for
anybody who's ever seen it play out,
it's one of the things where you don't
want to get involved because you want
everybody to be on their own journey. I
want my son to have his own journey, my
daughter to have her own journey, my
wife to have her own journey. I had my
own journey, right? And that's part of
the relationship they get to build with
God. That's what I believe. Thank you
guys for checking out this clip. If you
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