The conversation highlights the pervasive and often detrimental impact of technology, particularly social media and smartphones, on human well-being, relationships, and attention spans. It advocates for a more intentional and "human" approach to technology use to reclaim time, health, and genuine connection.
Key Points
Mind Map
انقر للتوسيع
انقر لاستعراض خريطة الذهن التفاعلية الكاملة
Tik Tok Tourette's syndrome is a real
diagnosis. People are manifesting
Tourette's from Tik Tok. We're not
designed to be sedentary, screen
staring, meaning devoid creatures.
Abigail Shrier says that when we talk
about moderation in regards to
technology, it's like nurses going to
high schools telling students to
moderate ecstasy. It's the wrong conversation.
conversation.
>> Walk us through why that is, though.
>> You have to remember your algorithm is
dictating the perception of your
reality, which is not likely true.
>> Say that again. I think that's such a
good point.
>> I don't know what I just said. What are
the principles that people should know
to use this technology responsibly?
>> If you implement these 11 principles in
your life in 2026, will radically change
>> It's almost 2026 and I believe that it's
more important than ever for all of us
to get our houses in order for us to
figure out how are we being affected on
a daily basis by our habits, routines,
and the tools, devices, and technologies
that we use. Welcome back to the Lilaya
Rose Show. Today I'm sitting down with
Andrew Lawbacker. He is the executive
director of humanity, which is a new
organization focused on making humans be
more human and understanding the costs
and consequences of the technologies
that we are using while providing a
roadmap for how us to use them in a more
human way that helps our relationships
and our health. Please make sure to
share this episode with a friend. Also,
thank you so much to everybody who's
been subscribing to the show. The show
grew by leaps and bounds this year
because of you. Still over 60% of the
people who are watching the show on
YouTube are not yet subscribed. So
please you can help support the show by
hitting that subscribe button. Leave us
a like, leave us a comment. I read every
single comment. And if you're listening
over on podcast app, make sure that you
are subscribed there so that you never
miss a future episode. Also, if you want
adree episodes, 30% off our merch,
access to ask questions of our guests in
the future, go check out our Patreon.
That's patreon.com/laose.
Thank you so much. Andrew Lawbacker,
welcome to the podcast.
>> It's great to be here.
>> Great to see. We have a lot of mutual friends.
friends.
>> A ton.
>> Including Emily and Daniel Husse. I want
to say Wilson. Obviously, it's >> Husam.
>> Husam. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Yeah. I've known them for probably like
12 plus years.
>> That's awesome.
>> Godfather to Jedodiah.
>> I love that.
>> I met Emily at an event I think in El
Paso probably 2013. I was leading
worship. She was a speaker. >> Amazing.
>> Amazing.
>> And then yeah, Daniel moved here. We've
been friends.
>> But you still haven't gotten on the on
sacred spark yet? not gone sacred spark.
>> You will soon, guys.
>> We're in the discerning process if I'm
going to enter into that digital world.
But I love them. They're some of my best
friends on the planet.
>> Well, we were saying earlier that you
are the expert on the harm of the
digital world
>> and how to escape from the harm and
build outside of that world, have the
real life connections that God has
planned us for, designed us for. Um, but
you were saying earlier if there's an
app that's a dating app that is the most
human, that would be the Sacred Spark
app. So, anyways, I
>> I agree. It seems like they're creating
some modalities in there that can be
more human and not as swipy. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And as transactional
and so, yeah, I think that what they're
doing is awesome. I enjoy meeting people
in the wild.
>> So, that's kind of been my my play so
far. Obviously, I'm still single, so it
hasn't really worked yet, but we're just
going to give it a little bit more time.
>> You're on the road a lot.
>> I'm on the road a lot. My life's been
really weird, which we can dive into at
a certain point, but um yeah, I've been
on the road a long time.
>> So, Humanity is the organization that
you're the executive director of. You've
been on this mission now for at least
since 2018,
>> but I think before that, you were being
prepared for the mission. >> Correct.
>> Correct.
>> And the mission is what? We are helping
people discover freedom through an
intentional relationship with
technology. We're helping people be
human and unpack a lot of the science of
how our technologies are impacting us
mentally, physically, spiritually and
use them as a tool. Thorough said that
we have become tools of our tools. So,
we're really trying to unpack how do we
live more human in a digital age and
it's I love what I'm doing. I love these
ideas and I'm seeing what we're doing
starting to work in people's lives and
it's really exciting.
Parents have said when they're surveyed
that one of their top, it's like a top
three. Sometimes it's a top top concern
about how to parent has to do with what
to do about technology, screens, social
media, the whole gamut of it. And a lot
of parents I think feel helpless against
this like overwhelming
uh movement of just this plastering of
the face to screens whether it's in the
classroom even getting iPads in the
classroom or it's you just walk down the
street and there's literally everywhere
you know you go to a restaurant it's
like there's screens everywhere there's
every kid has a screen. >> Um
>> Um
>> I want to go to your story because I
know that was really an onset for you
getting even interested in this. Mhm.
>> You haven't been on social media since when?
when? >> 2018.
>> 2018.
>> 2018. That's a long time for a younger
person. You're not a You're not an ex
Yeah. You're not even a You're a
millennial, right? Millennial. Yeah.
>> And now you're not the only millennial
who's gone totally scot-free, but that's
a long time. A lot of the times we take
breaks for like a month a year.
>> You're completely free of it. And now,
but you're also dedicated to helping
other people be free of it. Let's start
with your story. how why you went cold turkey.
turkey. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> On no social media in 2018.
>> Yes. So, I'm a millennial. I thought Are
we both millennials?
>> Of course,
>> we're both millennials. We look great. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Um I think, you know, starting as early
as high school, I I think about these
things deeply and I do have time to
think about these things deeply. Uh you
know, I was on AOL instant messenger,
you know, in high school, right? And
that was like the first time where I
was, you know, you're starting to spit
game, you know, at least the guy in
eighth grade like, "Hey,
>> girl, you know, you want to meet up at
recess?" You know, it is like this first
like experience of like, you know,
family's here, but I'm in this digital
world starting to instant message people.
people.
>> What was your handle?
>> Oh, I It's so skater boy.
>> It's so bad. So, my nickname, well, my
my middle name is James.
>> So, it was AJ Weeman 11,
>> of course,
>> AOL.com. It's horrible. I can't believe
that's going to be in the interwebs now.
>> I was Alexia 8. >> Oh,
>> Oh,
>> cuz Alexa was my favorite Russian ice skater.
skater.
>> Wow. male Olympian ice skater and then
eight. I don't know why eight, but >> yeah.
>> yeah.
>> I'm not going to go into like the
psychological reasons for mine, but it
was like, you know, this weird I pretty
much left the faith in high school,
right? So, mind you, at that time, it
was like, yeah, I didn't want to be religious.
religious.
>> I wanted to fit in. I changed
everything, right? I changed the way I
dressed, changed the way I spoke. Uh,
and and at this point, you know, the
sidekick's coming out. You know, I got
the flip phone. You know, I'm like T9
texting. This is wild. You know, I got
my MySpace. And during that time, I
slowly left the faith. You know, I was
parting a lot, you know, and hiding it
from my family. Fast forward all this, I
graduate uh Ventura High School. I'm
just going to go I start playing music,
sorry, when I'm 12. So, I'm playing rock
and roll, reggae, rap, you know, this is
like Young Jeezy and T pay and Usher.
You know, they're getting big. >> Eminem.
>> I'm more the Eminem guy. Yeah. I played
basketball, which was like no one no one
told me, "Hey, this is probably a bad
sport for you to play. You're going to
be really short." you know, I'm as tall
as Leo Messi. I could be a professional
soccer player if I tried. Uh, but for
whatever reason, I played basketball my
whole life, right? And um, but that
crowd I was in was fully
rebelling, right? And no one really
believed in God. The people that did
were weird. I went to youth group cuz I
had to, and I just didn't connect with
really anyone in that realm. Now, mind
you, during that time, I'm also having
like pretty severe anxiety as a kid and
panic attacks and have no idea why. Kind
of runs on both sides of the family, but
I was really angry at God for that. It's
a very limiting, terrifying thing as a
young person to have these like panic
attacks, you know. So, I think I turned
to a lot of different things to help
um ease that pain in a certain sense.
And yeah, so there's a lot happening
there in high school, but I I graduate.
I'm just going to go to community
college and keep rock and roll,
partying. There's no God. Might as well
live it up. And I end up getting caught
by the cops and for drugs.
>> And I have to go to court. And obviously
family's incredibly disappointed. And
I'm depressed. I'm anxious. All those
friends that were my friends weren't
there for me anymore cuz I wasn't
partying anymore.
>> Can I ask really quick, was it marijuana
or another drug?
>> Uh, yes. And a little bit of some other
stuff. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
>> It's it's it's so um tragic cuz that's
now legal. >> Totally.
>> Totally.
>> So there's no
>> marijuana ruined my life.
>> There's no intervention
>> anymore. Now it's like you can smell
like literally you go outside and you
smell it on the streets.
>> Totally. And um yeah, so that time it
was very destructive in a lot of ways.
But uh so I went to court and then I got
invited to go to this Stubenville
conference. Stenville youth conference.
I've been to two before and you know
it's like I don't want to go to this
like Jesus thing where people are like
want to hug you and you know talk about
God and I kind of knew the spiel right
um but I was at such a low point uh and
my mother I think forced me to go wasn't
an option like you're going to go on
this retreat
>> you are a convict
>> shout out to the moms right shout out to
the moms um and yeah in adoration I mean
I went to confession it was Audrey Assad
Matt Marm I just had a life-changing
experience in worship and adoration. I I
experienced the weight of my sin and the
gospel just hit me. Every every
preacher, every everything of that
weekend just radically transformed my
life. So I went home just completely
different person. Threw away all the
drugs, you know, try to get rid of the
pornography. Uh started going to mass. I
was literally watching hours of Mother
Angelica every day as a 19-year-old man.
That's a little weird. Okay. I love you
EWTN. Oh my gosh, that makes me want to cry.
cry.
>> I was praying so beautiful. I was
praying with grandma's aftermass
rosaries. I was watching with Super
Saints, Beth and Penny Lord, like fell
in love with the truth. I found out that
you can go and study this thing called
theology, you know. So I was a music
major at Fentura College, Community
College, and then I went to Franciscan
and studied theology and philosophy. And
Franciscan changed my life even more.
There I encountered God, the Holy
Spirit. I started leading worship at
studentville conferences myself. And
then I just started getting calls to go
play places. This was nothing I looked
to do. This is nothing I looked to
build. I started playing at my church
for 30 kids at a Bible study and just
started leading worship. And I couldn't
sing. Like my mother literally would
tell me in I could literally picture her
in the kitchen being like, "Andrew, stop
singing. You sound horrible." You know,
and I was like, "Mom, you're supposed to
love me." You know, and uh God gave me a
voice. And I'm not like, you know, I'm
not some insane vocalist or anything,
but but God, you know, started to give
me a voice to sing. And so that led me
to starting to travel around the
country, just started getting calls, go
to lead worship, share my testimony. And
so, mind you, where technology ties in
all this is I'm on every platform at
this point. I'm on your Snapchat. I got
Snapchat in college cuz there's a cute
girl on Snapchat.
>> And I was like, wait, you can just watch
everything they do all day and see what
they're doing? This is incredible.
creepy when you think about me up. All
of social media is incredibly creepy
when you think about it. But
particularly for those who's like, "Oh,
there's a really cute girl. I can just
watch what she does all day. This is
amazing." That's why I went on Snapchat,
by the way.
>> Uh had Instagram, Facebook, Twitter at
the time. You know, this is when MySpace
is dying and everything. So, I'm on all
the platforms and now I'm starting to
travel and play music and I'm posting
all my life
and sharing all the crowds that I'm in
front of and posting everything, right?
I'm just starting to notice some of
these trade-offs, right? Which are very
subtle, but I start to experience them
more and more, which um you know,
Instagram really started to get, you
know, really, I don't know how else to
say it, but pornified pretty pretty
quickly. And then so my scroll would be
like Father Mike Schmidz and Bishop
Aaron and then like booty shorts, you
know, it was like this is not helpful
for me. like I'm entering into this
world that has so much good and then so
many um different images that are
affecting for me purity. And as a man
that's trying to live on my Catholic
faith, I'm trying to be pure, right? I'm
trying to be chased. I'm trying to
um prepare myself, you know, for
marriage and my vocation. And so I
noticed that a lot of these technologies
were once starting to lead me to lust on
a regular basis. All of them. pretty
much all of them. Uh now at this time,
you know, you graduated Franciscan
friends are starting to get married,
starting to post their engagements,
starting to post their families. You
know, I'm not I'm not finding that
person. Um you know, I'm not, you know,
getting that next thing, the next thing.
I noticed the social comparison thing
happening pretty regularly, right, for
me, too. It's like each scroll was like,
"Oh, look at what they're doing that I
don't have." That became very regular.
And then also I definitely noticed the
just wasted time. And then this one idea
I want to kind of drive home on the back
of our smartphones. If you're an Apple
user, you know is a halfeaten apple. You
know, you might be have heard this
before, but you know what was the lie in
the garden? It was, you know, the devil
tempted Adam and Eve. Hey, if you eat
the at the tree of knowledge, good and
evil, you become like God. So with the
smartphone, we are participating in an
attribute of God, namely his omniresence
that we were never designed to
participate in. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> So
>> So
>> that's an interesting thought.
>> Now think about that and then think
about the two temptations to be omni
benevolent and then omnipotent. So with
the smartphone, we're present to all
things. And I remember feeling this like
cuz I remember started to see all of the
world's problems in the palm of my hand.
The earthquakes, the tsunamis, the
killings, the drama, the political. I
started to get so overwhelmed with
reality that I I remember kind of
starting to just get more numb, you
know, from people's pain. And now, mind
you, I'm trying to do ministry. I'm on
the road. I'm experiencing a plethora of
human experience all over the world that
I'm trying to like wrestle with and pray
with and minister to. And then, mind
you, I go back to my scroll and it's
just all the world's problems in the
palm of my hand.
>> So, I realized pretty early we were not
designed to participate in omnipresence.
And then temptation is now that we have
to solve the world's problems, be all
loving, and then actually we have the
power to do so. Omni potent. So those
weren't ideas that I was thinking of
then, but I look back and I'm like,
whoa, I was omnipresent. There's
multiple data points showing that
empathy has decreased 40% the last 30 years.
years.
>> Empathy has decreased how much?
>> 40% the last 30 years amongst college students.
students.
>> I noticed in my own life,
>> I see it, by the way.
>> Yep. Well, I noticed
>> they're laughing about Charlie Kirk's
murder as an example.
>> Go down the list, right? It's like the
things that I was starting to see in
this digital landscape, right? We have
to understand that what our biology is
experiencing, we've never experienced
before, right? It was like really
200,000 years ago is like language
starts to get introduced. You have a
whole trajectory of technologies, right,
that from the printing press, which took
about 500 years to really start to
impact culture. the digital landscape
that we're in now literally is like 15
20 years boom entering us putting us
into worlds we were never designed to be
in. Right? So, so I'd say it was a loss.
I'd say it was a social comparison. I'll
say it was a waste of time. The overload
of information I actually noticed I was
consuming so much information, even
really good information, I wasn't
retaining it. So, I got super deep in
the health and wellness space. I loved
healing. Okay. I got super fascinated
with like Jesus's healing ministry very
early on. That's why you Sean Tobin's a
good friend. Yeah.
>> Yes. I started praying for healing
pretty early on. We started to see
people getting healed of like real diseases.
diseases.
>> And then I noticed on the road traveling
too, we were starting to pray away
things that were largely due to our
lifestyles, diet, diet and exercise related
related
>> meaning like I'm obese. I need to be
thin. And like well you can pray for a
miracle or you can stop >> right
>> right
>> downing seven up or whatever it is. We
were going to all these events, a lot of
charismatic settings and praying for
people that you know had illnesses that
I believe were largely due to our
lifestyles and all the data I think now
is pointing to that right which is an
effect of technology which we'll get
into. So during that time I was
fascinated with all these topics and I'm
also like okay I want to be a saint and
I want to be holy and if I'm being
honest I think social media also is
making me really focused on myself. I
think the best way to be unhappy in life
is to focus on yourself. And I noticed
my posts every day was all me right. I
mean every post is me and it was always
my best day. It was not my lonely. I
mean, it's extremely lonely doing what
I've done, you know, in a lot of
different ways.
>> You mean the traveling music as a as a musician?
musician?
>> As a musician. I mean, you're playing in
front of hundreds of thousands of
people, but a lot of your time is is not
with people, you know, but my Instagram
looked incredible.
>> Are you were you with a band?
>> Yeah, I had a I've had a band.
>> Were you guys very tight or you went off
to your own separate ways?
>> Um, everyone lived everywhere. We were
kind of flying. You guys fly out. The
Catholic world is, you know,
>> but your daily routine is not like you
like like there used to be back in the
day your daily routine is like your
family, your your neighbor, the butcher,
you know, like whatever it was.
>> Today, we almost don't we don't even
know the names of our neighbors. We
don't see our families. They go to the
office. They go to the school. It's like
>> we're alone in the in the evenings of
parents are working, kids are by
themselves. So, there is this incredible
uh disintegration of human beings. I
want to get into that cuz that's all
techreated actually
>> and to be human is to be technological.
So what we're going to nuance here
throughout this whole conversation which
is why I wrestle with this stuff every
day is that there's infinite good that
can come out of technology and infinite
evil. So it's really hard for us to
nuance this while we were just talking
earlier like Facebook Marketplace
incredible tool helps people find all
these great things. That's my dining
room table. And I'm so proud of my
dining room table.
>> It's like this extremely unique thing
that was a few hundred, but it's
>> totally like I press a button and random
people come and pick me up and take me
places. It's called a lift and Uber.
Incredible technology.
>> It's no secret today that pornography
use is rampant and often men and women
feel like they are stuck in a habit of
use. Covenant Eyes is the number one
tool for overcoming pornography use and
has been empowering millions of people
to live porn-free for over 25 years. Not
only does Covenant Eyes software
completely remove adult content from
your devices, but it also fills that
void with a community of accountability
partners to walk with you on your
journey. So, if you are a man or a woman
looking for help in the fight against
pornography or you have a loved one, you
can go to covenant eyes.com and use the
code lila for one free month trial.
That's covenantey.com.
Use the code lila. Join the movement to
be free of porn for good. A good night
of sleep makes all the difference in the
world, and Cozy Earth wants to make sure
that that's not only possible, but
probable for you. Cozy Earth sheets are
what my husband and I have on our bed,
and they are our favorite sheets, hands
down. Crafted from viscous from bamboo
for an incredibly soft feel that keeps
you cozy without overheating, the bubble
cuddle blanket is the perfect gift for
cozy winter moments, and it combines
comfort and style with a distinctively
textured bubble design and an ultra soft
faux fur feel. Cozy Earth also
confidently offers a 100 night sleep
trial, as well as a 10-year warranty.
Right now, you can stack my code Laya on
top of their sitewide sale, giving you
up to 40% off in savings. These deals
won't last, so start your holiday
shopping early. That's cozyearth.com.
And use the code Laya for up to 40% off
your order. Give the gift of better
sleep this Christmas season. That's cozyear.com.
cozyear.com.
>> There's trade-offs, right? It's this and
that. This is Neil Postman's idea. He
said, "A new technology doesn't just
change this or that. It changes
everything." So we have to think about
in regards to media, in regards to the
technology of the fork and the knife and
the axe and the car and the light bulb,
all these technologies have impacts on
us, right? They're not just one thing.
It's both. And
>> so what I'm trying to kind of dissect is
the burdens and the blessings that are
being unveiled to us through these
different modalities. Right? So, back to
um at least my time on the road, I I I
definitely noticed me sharing my day
every day, sharing all my thoughts,
sharing all the crowds I I was in front
of. The question just kept coming up. Am
I trying to share my faith or am I just
trying to share me? Cuz I'm the brand
technically. And I just found that that
was making me really focused on myself.
And the more I started to study the
lives of the saints, I was like, Mother
Teresa hated getting pictures taken of
her, right? And um I really love the
Cartisian uh Carthusian the monks they
would you know with a spoon. This is a
little intense but I love this kind of
intense stuff. With a spoon they dig a
bit of their grave every day to remember
their mortality. And actually at the end
of their lives this is Nicholas Diott's
book A Time to Die. He goes through
this. Um they would burn all of their
pictures and writings. They wanted to be
solely known by the Lord instead of the
world. That's a little radical. I'm not
saying that we all need to do that. But
I noticed that my scrolling of myself
every day was making me very focused on
self. So here's a long story short.
There's a lot more there. But in 2018, I
was like, all this is leading me to be
unhappy ultimately and I'm a I'm trying
to be a student of Dr. Arthur Brooks.
He's he's a hero of mine, I'd say, in a
lot of ways.
>> He'll come on the show, I think, in two weeks.
weeks.
>> Yeah, he's
>> I just met him at Franciscan. His whole
talk he just gave at Franciscan was
essentially on humanity.
>> I love it. Tech detox.
>> You're like, you're my spokesman.
>> Yes. It was literally all on like the
meaning of this crisis is largely due to
our digital interactions.
>> They're just they're shallow, right?
It's not real.
>> Anyway, so I delayed everything in 2018.
>> And here's some of the fruits that
happened. I I went to a flip phone. So
this is this wasn't cool yet, right? The
digital minimalism movement hasn't
really started. I knew this was leading
me to sin in many different ways and I
wanted to be free and I definitely felt
the algorithms controlling me which I
didn't like. And so a couple things I
noticed really quickly after was
>> my friendships radically.
>> Before you tell me about the good fruit
of deleting social media and it wasn't
just to be clear, you didn't just delete
social media. You deleted a smartphone.
You deleted your your your supercomput
that was in your phone. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> So it wasn't just I mean Right. I mean so
so
>> um but I've got to ask you so 2018's an
early time to do that. Yeah. Too. I mean
I have one of my best friends also who's
been on the show a few times. Stephanie
Gay Connors now. She went social media
free cold turkey I think in maybe 2020
maybe and she was like again an early
adopter for this. Um and but she like
will ask me who has social media hey can
you share my book or share this or that.
So she understands still the use of the
thing right
>> you were in ministry you had a band that
I got that was your career that's how
you made money. How when you were like
just going cold turkey and deleting
everything. Did you think
>> I mean you could have you could have
done the CIA thing.
>> Seia the artist, the musician. She's
like never shows her face.
>> Oh, that's fun.
>> And then it's definitely not about her,
but she's still promoting her and her
music obviously. But how did you square that?
that?
>> Oh, this was Yeah, obviously I was a
single guy at the time uh and still am,
but at the time I realized I didn't have
a family that I was dependent. But I had
bills. So this is where people I I get
the argument. They're like, "Well, you
don't have a family and you don't have I
had plenty of bills. I had, you know,
college debt. I mean, I had things that
had to be paid, right?" So, I thought of
all those things for sure. Here's what's
crazy. What happened that year, I
deleted everything.
I went more places around the world. It
was the wildest year. Like, I got more
gigs. I had too many events. I went all
over Canada, South America, Europe, and
I think Jerusalem.
>> How did they know about you?
>> Word of mouth. And I say, "God." And I
was playing in front of big crowds in a
lot of places, right?
>> People heard you. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Did that continue?
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. So 2020 hit.
>> Oh. Well, then
>> I was in Jerusalem in March of 2020
leading worship. And mind you, that year
I just played my biggest show yet. It
was 10,000 people in DC. It was amazing.
And here's one thing that came up that really
really
um it I felt it deeply. I remember
playing the show. It's 10,000 people.
It's 2020. I remember people coming
like, "Dude, you made it, bro. This is
incredible." Blah, blah, blah. And this
thing like came up in me that was like,
"I wish I could post this so people
could see me,
that they can know that I'm doing this
thing, right?" And when I felt that, I
was like, "Oo,
you know, I didn't like that about about
that experience because it was like
here's this thing I'm doing and I deeply
want to be seen, known, and loved like
all of us. And this is what and I
thought about a couple ladies, you know,
that I'd like to see me playing in front
of all these people, you know what I
mean?" And uh and it really it was a
kind of a turning moment where I was
like, well, I'm definitely
noticing that me sharing me all the time
is a is is
affecting my perception of reality and
of myself and who I am and who I'm
called to be. I was looking for
affirmation. I love the like button like
we all do. I was getting just as much
dopamine as everybody else. I'd look at
all my comments. I'd look at who liked
it, who didn't, how many likes I got.
Um, I was addicted to all these things.
You know, we'll get into all the
mechanisms at play that are doing that
to us. But that really was a kind of
turning point where I'm like, I don't I
don't think I'm ever going to go back to
these platforms in this capacity. Right?
So that was 2020. I'm in Jerusalem 2020.
March I'm playing in in the holiest
places in the world, right? And CO's
hitting that's early on, right? So I'm
at that point where I'm flying back.
Literally CO's hitting our hotel in
Jerusalem and I'm like, "Oh, we're all
going to die."
>> At this time, I'm living
>> and no social media to talk about.
>> Right. Right.
>> Anonymous death like the Carians.
>> And I went to I flew back home here cuz
I'm like, if we're all going to die, I
want to be surfing at least, you know,
while this is happening.
>> You're not allowed to surf during co.
>> I know. I got we got in trouble. But
anyway, I went back to surf and be with
my family.
>> The ocean might give you CO.
>> That's right. Cuz there's CO on the
ocean. Yeah. Um I came right
>> Yeah. I came to very different
conclusions with that whole experience
which we don't have to talk about here
but I'm home and um the funny thing is
during that time I'm like everything
turned to Zoom all my events were on
Zoom and I literally started this it was
like a a live I just used the live
Instagram thing where I like interviewed
friends or whatever and I
>> So you did go on Instagram.
>> Yeah. So, I like literally went back.
I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to do this
for two months during quarantine." And
when quarantine's done, I'm just going
to get off this, but I'm going to have
these like interviews. And we just
talked about scripture each day. And it
was kind of cool. Even at that moment,
when I had that again, I found myself
scrolling again. I found myself
comparing again. I found myself seeing
things online that were not helping my
purity. It's like this all the same
things came back. And mind you, prior to
2018, I tried to be moderate like
multiple times. I did the month fast.
the 3 months. Okay, I'm just going to go
in here. I can never find that
moderation. Abigail Shrier says that
when we talk about moderation in regards
to technology with teenagers, at least
it's like nurses going to high schools
telling students to moderate ecstasy,
>> it's the wrong conversation, right?
>> Walk us through why that is though.
Like, and folks listening, you know,
most people by now have heard a study or
maybe they're familiar with Jonathan
Height, the ancient Generation, his
amazing New York Times bestselling book.
Um, I know there's an article that you
sent us about his the devil's plan to
ruin the next generation, which we're
going to talk about, but give us what
are would you say the most compelling
data points that every person you think
should know about the
negative consequences
of social media use. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> In terms of its drug-like
>> capacity to addict us and to short
circuit our brains and
>> harm us ultimately.
>> And this is great. This can take us down
like a very deep long rabbit hole. So if
you need to bring me back to what we
were unpacking prior, let me know.
>> Let's start walking into the rabbit hole
at least a little bit.
>> I love this. You're very good at this. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. So this is a really good quote
that I think you have to start with
first. Okay. Actually, there's a few
things to walk into this. Okay. So we
have to think about this precautionary
principle that has not been applied to
these technologies. Right? Again, think
of technology as a light bulb, the car,
the train. media has its own
technologies, the printing press, um,
you know, computers, etc. So, and Neil
Postman, you know, said this as well, is
that, you know, to begin a critique of
technology, one must first acknowledge
its its success.
>> So, I have to, as a critic of a lot of
these media platforms and technologies,
I have to acknowledge technology has
given us incredible amazing goods. This
is the best time to be alive, full stop,
for many reasons. Now in Anna Lumpky's
book uh Dr. John Finukuain she quotes
he's a John's Hopkins professor he says
quote we are cacti in a rainforest
simply meaning that because of the
abundance the technologies have created
there's been incredible trade-offs that
have happened because of this right so
this precautionary principle looks at
different technologies and actually says
okay what's the possible trade-offs of
some of these things no one gave us any
informed consent when we were given a
smartphone that hey this could actually
really affect your attention. This could
actually really affect your mental
health. This is going to have a library
of pornography that's incredibly
addictive more than methamphetamine. Uh
this is going to largely create a lot of
issues with your sleep
>> and uh you know a whole plethora of
other stuff
>> and it'll distract you from your real
world relationships. It's a physical
time commitment that you're not
realizing fully you're signing up for
that when you're on now, you know, with
your friends, with your kids, with your
spouse, with your parents, right?
>> This is going to be popping up to
command your attention.
>> So, no one entered into these
technologies with any precautionary
principle. What's the possible trait? We
just went into this. I got my
smartphone. I don't even remember the
day I got it, to be honest. It was a
part of my life. There's literally a
clinical diagnosis now called nomophobia,
nomophobia,
which is a phobia of being separated
from your device, which I think we all
experienced to some capacity, but young
people are literally having full-on
panic attacks if they have any time of
separation from their device. So, it's
literally becoming a part of us, right,
to a certain degree.
>> Well, mine's right here. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Full disclosure, guys.
>> You're right. And
>> my baby right here on I have it in part
because I like reference it for
interviews, but I mean, I guess
sometimes it's in my bag, but >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Really fun.
>> It's true. It's with me a lot. Like most
of my phone,
>> but but it's also because the tools are
so mixed together, right?
>> Where's your phone, by the way?
>> Uh it's over there. My I have a light phone.
phone.
>> It's a It's a flip phone or no?
>> Uh it's called the light phone. It's a
dumb phone. I'll show it to you. I like it.
it.
>> We should actually look at it during the interview.
interview.
>> Yeah, it' be great. Sandy, if you want
to go get it,
>> but you were in the rabbit hole. I want
to keep going.
>> Yeah, I'm going to keep going. I'm going
to keep venturing through this
intellectual realm.
>> Uh so this precautionary principle we
have to understand, no one told us what
was going to happen to us. We really
think as a as a species that convenience
is the best thing in all situations, all
times. My argument actually, and this is
in a lot of uh the comfort crisis with
Michael Easter, his book, uh comfort's
killing us in a lot of different ways.
And the convenience of a lot of these
communication platforms and a lot of
these social media platforms are
creating a lot of problems, right? So
convenience, we have to think, is always
not a good it's not always a good thing.
Think of McDonald's, right? Incredibly
convenient. If you eat McDonald's every
day, you are going to get incredibly
sick. So, right now, your average screen
time for young people is about 8 hours
and 39 minutes a day
>> for young people. What's that age group?
>> Uh, so that's high school and and young adults.
adults.
>> High schoolers are spending an average
of eight hours a day on screen.
>> 8 hours and 39 minutes a day.
>> But what about school?
>> Is that is some of that question? So,
there's a big transition now of
obviously schools getting out of uh or
phones getting out of school in the
daytime, but this is literally after
school still racking up eight hours.
>> Okay. low income.
>> I mean, I believe you, but like so
there's 24 hours in a day. Let's just
say you're sleeping 8 hours, which I
know a lot of high school kids aren't.
That's part of the problem. They're on
their devices till like 1:00 a.m.
>> But so if they're in school for what, 8 hours?
hours? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I was homeschooled. So, how long did you
go to school? You went to real school.
>> I went to real school.
>> Was it 8 hours a day?
>> I guess. Yeah.
>> 8 hours. Then I guess Yeah. There's
another 8 hours
>> that you could be on that phone. Yeah.
>> If you're sleeping 8 hours, you're on
your phone 8 hours, and then you are in
school for 8 hours. It's in it's insane.
I mean, I was I was on a retreat once
and talking to, you know, kids and I was
like, "Raise your hand if you feel like
you don't hear God." You know, some kids
raised their hand and I was like,
"What's your screen time?"
>> One kid's screen time was 14 hours a
day. This is actually pretty common. Um,
actually, so here,
>> sorry, sorry to interrupt screen, but
just to get to the bottom of this in
particular, for example, my screen time
includes text time.
>> It includes maps time. Yes,
>> this is my like excuse, I guess, right?
Yeah. text time, maps time, basically
any app on the phone is considered
screen time, >> correct?
>> correct?
>> Including actually a phone call. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> So, um, what how much of that 8 hours?
>> Yeah. Let's break those down. So, about
5 and a half hours is the average social
media time that young people are on on
social media. So, after 30 minutes, you
are 2xing your risk of depression and anxiety.
anxiety.
>> 30 minutes on social media. After 30
minutes on social media, you are double
xing your risk of mood disorders,
anxiety and depression. now and I don't
think this is just so here's the thing
too this is why this is so complex it's
impacting different generations in many
different ways right so uh it's up to 10
hours actually screen time for
low-income communities which is even
more horrible I think
>> well I've noticed um if when there's
children after school the parents are working
working >> correct
>> correct
>> a lot and and you know higher income
families can work a lot too so it's like
but they might be you know if they're
like doing janitorial work or they're
doing retail work they're going to be
out doing that and the kid is going to
be on a screen, >> right?
>> right?
>> And that's their after school program is
watching cartoons. >> Totally.
>> Totally.
>> It's really hard to find good content to
watch with my kids for when they are
allowed to have screen time. I'm always
on the lookout for low stimulating,
storydriven, and values-based kids
content. That's why I'm very excited
about Brave Plus. Brave Plus is a new
streaming platform with content that
reinforces our values instead of
undermining them. Every show is vetted
by real Christian parents, not only to
screen out messages that are harmful,
but to also avoid overstimulating video
content that's linked to mental and
behavioral issues. Brave Plus only
accepts one in every 20 shows that they
review. When you check it out, you'll
find classics like Strawberry Shortcake,
Babar, Paddington, as well as new shows
like season 2 of Iggy and Mr. Kirk
starring Kirk Cameron. And right now,
just for my listeners, you can try Brave
Plus free for 7 days. Go to brave plus.com/la.
plus.com/la.
That's braveplus.com/la
for a free 7-day trial. It's a cruel
irony that most diaper companies in
America support pro-abortion groups.
Every life is America's only prolife
baby product and feminine care product
company. Every Life offers best-in-class
diapers, wipes, and other baby products,
as well as their brand new women's line
with pads, and tampons made with 100%
gotcertified organic cotton and
breathable, seamless period underwear.
These are the products that I use for
myself at home, as well as for my
babies. Head over to everyife.com/la
today and use my code yla for 10% off
your first order. Support babies and
mothers and sign yourself or a loved one
up and their baby today over at everylife.com/la.
everylife.com/la.
>> So, here's a projection of what this
looks like, though, young people's
lives. Your average 18-year-old, if you
break down your life into months, right?
Your average 18-year-old with a 90-year
lifespan. Third of your life is asleep,
right? It's like 27 months like, you
know, working, there's like 22 months in
the bathroom or something hilarious like
that. You know, break it down. And
there's about 334
months of free time that you're going to
have right now for young people with an
average lifespan of 90 years.
18-year-olds are on pace to spend 93% of
that time on a screen which is going to
amount to 27 years of their life. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> On a screen.
>> This is wild, but it's extremely
fascinating and important what you're saying.
saying.
>> Yeah. So if you break up 90 years of
life, which is a long lifespan into months,
months,
>> 22 months in the bathroom,
>> there's some fun. Yeah. You break down
like this, these amount of months is
work. This is like going to be
>> so the 330ish
months of free time over a 90 year
lifespan after you take out personal
care, eating,
>> uh sleeping, and you take out work.
>> So this would be like time you could be
>> This is when you're falling in love.
This is when you're going on trips. This
is when you're playing an instrument.
This is when you're reading a book. This
is when you're learning a new recipe.
Like, name the human things
>> that we're losing. 93% of that time
right now for them is going to be spent
on the screen
>> and they're going to look back on their
life and look at 27 years of screen
time. So, really a huge part of why I'm
doing what I'm doing is I want to help
people get their time back into their
lives. I was just on Tammy Peterson's
show and shared this data. I was like
talked to a lot of pastors and people
that you know accompany people on their
deathbed and what do people talk about
when they're dying? I'm very interested
in that topic. And guess what? It's not
the company you built.
>> It's not how much money you had.
>> It's not how many followers you've had.
It's not how much Netflix you watched
even. It's not the movies. It's not It's
not anything but people. It relates to
regrets with not spending enough time
with people or wishing they did more
things with people. And Tammy's like, I
can confirm that when I was dying,
because Tammy Tammy was dying, cancer,
she said she literally thought of her
son and thought of her son having
children. It's all people orientated.
So, I think what I'm realizing is that
it's not necessarily what the phone is
doing to us and screens are doing to us.
It's what they're undoing in our lives.
It's what they're eroding, I think, that
is actually more alarming than what
they're giving us. because they seem to
give us a lot, but they're actually
designed to take away more from us than
they give. So, this is where we maybe
get back into a little bit of the
history of these platforms. This is from
Sean Parker. He's the founding president
of Facebook with Zuckerberg. Uh, this
quotes in every book, so I'm just going
to give kind of highle points to help
people understand the history of these
technologies, how they were designed,
and how they're manipulating us, and
then your decision on how you want to
use them. because ultimately I'm
realizing yeah social media is not going
away for me it's been better to not
participate in that but I get for
people's businesses or for Facebook
marketplace like there's things in that
that I realize people are utilizing for
good which is obviously a lot of my
friends um that I realize have their
place but we have to understand that
trade-offs are massive for most people right
right
>> well you're going to read that quote and
what we're going to get to and I know
we've said like let's be sure to talk
about this with humanity all of what
you're doing is laying the groundwork
for the problem to wake up to the
problem, be very sober minded about what
are we actually dealing with and then
there is a solution and so I'm excited
to get to that.
>> Yes, we're going to get to very happy
stuff. This is all the intense stuff
that like I read every day that's super
depressing. Like it's really hard
sometimes to be happy when I understand
the amount that's happening in the world
in people's lives. And mind you, I'm on
the road speaking all over the world
essentially on this topic. I have sixth
grade girls coming up to me telling me
Tik Tok's ruining their life. Yes,
people are dying because I have a story
with that too. Maybe remind me that
story uh after this.
>> The dying Tik Tok story.
>> Dying. Well, sadly connected to
Snapchat, but I would like to share that
story. This is Sean Parker, the founding
president of Facebook. He says, quote,
the thought process that went into
building these applications, Facebook
being the first of them, was all about
quote, "How do we consume as much of
your time and conscious attention as
possible?" And that means we sort of we
need to sort of give you a little
dopamine hit every once in a while
because someone liked or commented on a
po post or a photo or whatever. And
that's going to get you to contribute
more content and that's going to get you
more likes and comments. It's a social
validation feedback loop. Exactly the
kind of thing that a hacker like myself
would come up with because you're
exploiting a vulnerability in human
psychology. It's Kevin Sister on
Instagram. It's Zuckerberg. It's all
these people understood this consciously
and we did it anyway.
So you have to understand the people
that created these technologies were
purposely trying to consume our
attention. So here's the genesis of
that. There's a few important names.
We'll get into some of the science. BF
Skinner is one of them. BJ Fog's another
one. I don't know what the B thing is
with these like psychology professors,
but it starts with Skinner cages, right?
Have you heard of the Skinner cages?
Tell me what
>> essentially studies with rats that
actually showed that um you know it was
how they were getting addicted to different
different
>> you know drugs and it was really trying
to you know unpack addiction science
right so they put them in Skinner cages
they they saw
>> what is a Skinner cage
>> it was essentially BF Skinner was a
psychologist that created these
environments for rats
>> to do test test
>> to do testing on them and they were
incredibly isolated and they got
addicted to the morphine and they
noticed instead of just giving it a
perfect hit at the same time they
noticed that this intermittent positive
positive feedback or variable reward
system made the rats more addicted to
the drug. So instead of just knowing at
a perfect time they're going to get it,
it was the uncertainty, the novelty that
created addiction. Right now think of
every slot machine, think of every
social media swipe. It's all novelty and
intermittent positive feedback. So guys
like BJ Vog, he's teaching in the 1990s
I think at the Stanford persuasive uh
technology lab. Do you want to know the
name of the website for this lab? I'll
tell you, Laya. It is machines designed
to change humans.com.
>> Mach. Is it still up?
>> I don't know actually. Stanford
>> designed to change humans.
>> Designed to changehumans.com.
This is definitely a 90%.
>> It doesn't look like it exists.
>> They probably took it down.
>> Yeah. I'm like, that's not that's not a
good look anymore. Yeah. Not a good
looking just like Google took out of
actually their company. Don't be evil.
>> They took that out in 2018. That's a fun fact.
fact.
>> The Wayback Machine. Okay. Keep going.
I'm actually serious about the Wayback
Machine now. But
>> BJ Fog has this class now called the
Facebook class. Now, this is all of your
founders of all of the major tech
platforms you can think of. He starts to
teach them these Skinner principles and
many other different principles on how
to addict people and change their human
behavior through incentives. Right? He
calls them put you know putting hot
triggers in front of motivated people
was one of his main quotes. So he took
this Facebook class was sharing these
studies from BF Skinner and others
called behaviorism. This is literally
how to manipulate people's behavior and
showed that actually with this those
principles they were applied they used
them in 10 weeks they created over $16
million of revenue and like a million
users on some some app.
>> This was what year?
>> This was like in the early 90s. Okay.
and voila, all of your social media
platforms are born. So, they start with
BJ Fog and he's tried to, you know,
share that he's not, you know, he
regrets, I think, a lot of these things.
You start to find out a lot of these
guys knew what they were doing and and
knew that this would literally transform
the way people thought they related to
themselves and each other. So, BJ Fog
started with these kind of principles.
This equation B equals MAT. Behavior
change equals motivation, ability, and
trigger. So now think of every social
media platform to change our motivation.
We're social creatures. So Daniel
Lieberman, I think he's at UCLA,
neuroscientist, talks about how actually
our brains reflexively think social. And
this is how God created us, right? So
this is what's so amazing. God created
us to be social creatures. These
platforms are actually hijacking this
deep gift that God has given us for the
social. Literally Daniel Liber Lieberman
talks about this. Our brain's reflex is
to think about people, right? So these
platforms are praying upon us in these
multiple different ways all using this
equation. Behavior equals motivation,
ability, trigger. What's our motivation?
It's to be social. Most of social media
is just people watching. When you kind
of get above what you're scrolling,
you're just watching people cuz we're
social, right? So they know that. They
know our deepest motivation, especially
for teenagers, is a social, right?
Remember me in high school, I changed
the way I dressed. I had to start
cussing. I had to start listening to
Usher and do the drugs and go to the
parties to fit in, right? Because as
social creatures at that development
time, we need connection. We can't get
out of the tribe. If we get pushed out
of the tribe, that's death. Right? Now,
go into a digital framework. You're
getting a dopamine hit with this
intermittent positive feedback, this
variable reward system because you don't
know what's coming next. That keeps you
in the scroll. And I know you know about
dopamine, right? So, dopamine is this
neurotransmitter in the brain. Makes you
feel good. Again, a gift from God. If
you have if you don't have dopamine, you
die, right? Makes you feel really good
when you don't have dopamine, you die.
>> Well, because you'll have no motivation.
You'll lose all motivation. So, Anna
Lumpky talks about this too in her book,
Dopamine Nation. But that anticipatory
motivation for the social is what keeps
you in the doom scroll. And literally
gaming, this is Dr. Nicholas Keras's
work. He wrote a book called Glow Kids
and Digital Madness. He's on our board
of adviserss, but he talks about
actually the dopamine released during
gaming in 1998
was 100%. It was 100% increase from your
base level dopamine state with gaming in
1998. Guess what else releases dopamine
at 100%. Sex.
Sex.
So sex is usually a timelmited thing you
know and with gaming it can actually be
12 plus hours long of gaming on these
platforms that is increasing these super
physsiological states of dopamine right
now think of your social media platforms
super physiological I talked to a lot of
people and I experienced this myself
there's this almost loss of time right
that happens you don't realize how long
you're scrolling hours can go by it's
because you're getting a dopamine hit of
novelty from this variable reward system
in the brain that is keeping you glued
to more more more more. Right? So, what
does that do to us after? It's a crash.
There's all these studies that show that
Facebook depression is actually a real
thing. And actually, this euphoric
recall is what they call it. So, when
you scroll for a long time after
Facebook, you most likely feel depressed
after. Here's the thing, Laya. I've
never heard anyone in all the years I've
kind of been thinking about this,
talking about this. After 4 hours of
scrolling, name a social media platform
that people are like, "Oh my gosh, the
world is in such a great place. I love
my life and I can't wait to do my 3:00
a.m. workout tomorrow morning. You know,
most people after a scroll are like,
"What did I do with my time? That was
incredibly wasteful." And
>> and we're all going to die because AI is
going to take over the world, which it
might be. It might be, and we will all
die, right?
>> Because we do die,
>> but like,
>> right, but it's this thing called
euphoric recall. We look back on that
dopamine experience of feeling good
about watching people. And again, this
is what's so difficult. I love that we
get to watch our grandma and I love that
I can FaceTime my grandpa and you know
there is something good within that.
That's why it's really hard to nuance
this. But along with that viewing of
what your friend is doing over there,
you're also getting a really angry
person is talking about something
political, right? You're also getting uh
something hor I mean I literally
remember watching on my Instagram scroll
like the Sri Lankan tsunamis. Literally
watched a guy just get hit by a 30-foot
tsunami and die and then I went on to my
next scroll.
>> Yeah. It's
>> right. So there's so much happening. But
so these guys founding these companies
knew this. Steve Jobs in a 2010
interview was asked, "How are your kids
loving the new iPad?" He said, "We do
not give them these technologies. We
limit their use."
>> Shamoth also worked with uh Facebook
starting and he literally said, quote,
"I don't use this crap. I don't even
give this to my kids." All of the
founders of all these big tech platforms
went to what's called Waldorf schools
>> which are low tech to zero tech schools
and they don't send their kids to
schools with technology. So when the
they when they aren't getting high on
their own supply it's something to
acknowledge right because it's shaping
who we are. So that's one two major
mechanisms, right? Social approval is
huge. I can't even dive into how deep
that is, especially for young people on
why we're stuck in these platforms and
then the intermittent positive feedback.
Those are two really big mechanisms that
are being deployed on purpose. So again,
that's motivation. Now let's think of
the ability. The convenience of the ease
of these technologies creates that
misuse of it, right? There's no
friction. So if you read atomic habits
and you look at James Clear's work on
changing habits, right? A huge part of
what he talks about is creating friction
in some of these um you know
conveniences that are maybe detrimental
in our life.
>> What does that mean?
>> So friction is just making something a
little bit more difficult. So instead of
your Instagram being on your phone, put
it on your computer.
>> So this is Atomic Habits. Who's the
author again? James Clear. And it's his
advice for how to create better habits
or or root out bad habits. Yes. And to
root out the bad habits, you need to
create the thing that you were doing
that was easy and fun and comfortable
that you're addicted to. Make it harder
to do.
>> Yes. And this what's so hard about the addiction.
addiction.
>> If you love to eat Oreo cookies, don't
put them in the house. You have to go to
the grocery store, buy the cookies.
>> Just like you've never put alcohol in in
a room with an alcohol.
>> Or if you have a porn habit, you should
install Covenant Eyes on your phone with
the code Laya. But one month free. What
is it? Anyways, covenant is great, but
you make it harder to do the bad thing.
>> Correct. Now, this is what's so hard
with the phone with the screen just to
your point. You you have maps, you have
communication, you have information, the
information is ubiquitous, right? But
the impact of being again omnipresent uh
what's happening and this is in Nicholas
Carr's book uh the shallows and his
latest book superloom I highly
recommend. He talks about the reality
that when we were being proposed all
these technologies when Zuckerberg named
the guy we're going to connect the
world, right? What were they saying?
This is going to be the most incredible
thing ever. We're going to connect the
world, right? We didn't realize that
connecting the world would have so many
trade-offs, right? Polarization. Think
about how many families don't talk to
each other now because family members
because of stuff people are posting
online politically. It's destroying so
many relationships in so many different
ways, right?
>> Just because of people uh voicing
opinions, sometimes bad opinions,
terrible opinions, but they they see the
family member doing it. They're like,
"Well, I can't have you over for dinner."
dinner."
>> Totally. I mean, literally, there's
people that Nicholas Carr quotes that
were talking about that electronic
communication is literally going to
abolish war. It's going to abolish war.
It's going to create this incredible
socioeconomic um equality. Like, people
are going to have more understanding and
information and be empowered. We're
seeing actually the complete opposite.
There's a study called Brain Drain. I
think it was 2017 that actually just
showed researchers took students, they
put them in a room, had them do
different cognitive tests, IQ tests, all
these things, had the phone completely
outside the room. As the phone got
closer and they took cognitive tests,
their scores declined. Even the phone
next to them face down, not on, their
performance on the cognitive test decreased
decreased
>> because there was like a hyper alert alert.
alert.
>> Just the mere presence is literally
mental energy away from us. Right.
>> This is all very compelling, of course,
but just to play devil's advocate for a moment.
moment.
>> I like this. Um there is of course the
trade-offs like you keep mentioning
>> and you know I've seen just in my bubble
you let's call it or my little um
anecdotes of pro-life activism
>> live action has like now over combined 8
million social media followers right 3
billion video views all of this and it's
all this pro-life content
>> that clearly you're not one of the
followers or the views but that's okay
but it's all this pro-life content and
it's exposing abortion it's celebrating
human dignity
upgrade, your car, your outfit. It's not
designed to be like, "Look, I'm so cool
and you're not." It's designed to help
you feel
>> sympathy, empathy
>> for the unborn baby,
>> and see that abortion is bad and connect
people to resources. So, we're a hub to
connect people to the,
>> you know, thousands of pregnancy
resource centers out there and all of
this, right? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
If you could give me a button that would
I could press that would delete all
social media everywhere for everyone, I
would press that button. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But because we live in because there's
people promoting abortion misinformation
relentlessly online and they have more
money than we do by like 100x.
>> Um and the tech lords overlords are all
proorts, right? So you're dealing with that.
that.
>> Um so I would press the delete button
for the whole world if I could, but
provided we don't have the delete
button. Um, obviously we're we're we are
out there. So, I guess I'm answering my
own question. I was going to do the
devil's advocate of like, does the can
the good outweigh the bad? >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Well, can the good outweigh the bad if
people use it responsibly or if the tech
overlords took out some of these incentives?
incentives? >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> That are so um pernicious to make people
continue to click click click.
>> Yes. I love this question and I want to
acknowledge again how
nuanced and complex this is and and how
we're literally in a storm. I mean,
we're we're navigating a digital
overwhelm world where there's people
literally doing amazing thing like like
you're doing in this realm and then
also, you know, the plethora of other
things that are happening, right? So,
I'm I'm trying to look at this at a
macro level and then a personal level
and see what the data is pointing to um
and then really hear what is going to be
the best way to move forward in your
day-to-day. And so, there's a lot to
unpack there. Particularly, I think I
want to keep diving in a little bit more
to exactly how this is impacting the
individual person because I think it'll
connect to your to your point with
continuing to pump out all this amazing
content because if people are on these
things, this is how they're going to
engage with that information.
Now, it's really hard to have some type
of metric to say how many people have
watched how many good videos and how has
that changed their thinking and their
life and their actions, you know, and I
guarantee you there's so many
conversations of really good people that
we all know that are doing great things
that are creating incredible fruit in a
lot of people's lives, right? So, I
can't deny the good that can come out of it.
it.
To me, per person right now, depending
on yeah, your relationship with this
supercomput in your pocket, it's really
hard to give a one-sizefits-all answer
to a very complex situation. Cuz if you
are 90 years old right now, you had most
of your life to develop neurologically,
relationally, career-wise. Boomers are
having a very different experience from
this. Boomers are doing great.
>> Boomers got money. They got they got
they're doing great. They have friends.
They're I see most boomers around
walking, getting outside. They're doing
things. They're bike riding.
>> They are. They're so like on top of it.
I think there's a subset of boomers who
are actually really unhappy because they
feel like their family ties have disintegrated.
disintegrated.
>> Well, that's also this whole no contact
thing happens.
>> But but generally speaking, I think I
mean it would be interesting the health
actually this is a really interesting
question. Are the health outcomes for boomers
boomers
better than they're anticipated to be
for Gen Xers and millennials?
>> Oh, I mean, it has to be. So, we're also al
al
>> Well, yeah, there has to be.
>> Well, we're also in a chronic disease
epidemic, obesity epidemic, loneliness
epidemic. These these epidemics
>> that's hitting the younger younger. I
mean, I like like testosterone. I've
heard like younger men have dramatically
lower testosterone at large than their predecessors.
predecessors.
>> Yes, that's just one example. There's a
lot of reasons to that largely due to
technology. Dr. Cardara said, "We're not
designed to be sedentary, screen,
staring, meaning devoid creatures." So,
what what builds testosterone? Sunlight,
lifting heavy things, low-level movement
throughout the day. We get none of those
things. We're we're sitting 8 hours a
day. Anna Lumpky talks about this. You
know, 100 years ago, we were out, we
were outside working 6 and a half days a
week, 10 to 12 hour days with about 2
and a half hours of leisure a day. Right
now, fast forward 100 years. We um are
indoors 97 to 98% of the time and we
have about five and a half hours of
leisure a day.
>> We invest all that back into technology.
That's the average screen time actually
for the adult. So all the washing
machine, the dryer, your sink, the car,
all these time-saving technologies have
given us back incredible time, but we're
actually wasting that time on mostly
useless technological interaction. Or
I've noticed we are working more
>> that too.
>> A lot of the white collar jobs today and
I'm not saying blue collar jobs you
don't work more too but like
>> like if you have a boss in corporate
America whether you are an attorney or
you're working in business or tech or
whatever there's this expectation of
working in the evenings and early
morning and weekends. Yes.
>> You're always on. You're never off. You
got to check emails all day. We're
messages all day. So I want to dive into
more of the trade-offs still because I
think it's going to better answer your question
question
>> um of ultimately okay. Can there does
the good outweigh the bad in these
certain circumstances? So there's a lot
of trade-offs happening right now. Our
attention span now 2013 Microsoft had a
study that showed our attention span is
now fallen below the goldfish. The
goldfish is at 9 seconds. The human
person now is at 8 seconds. Okay. So our
attention span is falling.
>> What is it supposed to be at?
>> It's well I don't know if it's like
quote supposed to be at anything but
it's falling like
>> but what did it what was it before technology?
technology?
>> That's a great question. Yeah, that
study was simply quoting that we fallen
behind the goldfish which is unfortunate.
unfortunate.
>> I'm curious about that. So the so um
what should Yeah. What what should the
average I mean
>> I just like very anecdotally I look at
the letters that soldiers would write
their families during the Civil War. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I look at the letters that Roman
soldiers would write their families
during like the Roman wars against the
barbarians or whatever and I'm like
shocked at the eloquence and the
thoughtfulness of these letters. And
then I look at the sorts of notes and
letters that are written to each other today.
today. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And they are like, you know, love you.
Thanks. You know, you're the best. I
love you so much. Like we we we don't
even know how to communicate in long
form with each other anymore.
>> Yes. I love letter writing. I'm trying
to bring it back. We're trying to bring
it back. If you want to write a letter,
go to humanity.
>> I mean, I remember doing that in high
school. I would write my friends. We
would pen out. we'd write and I had this
box in my attic
>> of these beautiful letters that I
received because I would receive and
write them and my husband thankfully
when we were dating he would still write
me beautiful letters and I would write
him some I guess not maybe not as good
as his cuz he's a so smart and like he's
a so such a good writer but I think
about right now do I write any letters I
mean I write emails
>> but when was last time I wrote a
handwritten letter to somebody letters
yeah it's hard for my
>> it's like because how why would you take
time to write a letter when you You
could send a text and the text is say,
"I love you." And they get it
immediately. You know, they're going to
be touched by it. They're going to feel
affirmed and they got it. You did it.
So, why would you write a person a letter?
letter?
>> Yeah. There's something so special about
letters, though.
>> No, I'm saying. Yeah, I agree.
>> Yeah. No, but to your point, too, that's
again, this is a trade-off. Convenience.
>> Yeah. Let's go through a little bit more
of the trade-offs because it's vast,
right? So, when you're entering in the
digital landscape of a personal
supercomput, there's more. And I just
want to hit this briefly because it is
part of my experience too
>> and I think it will answer again some of
this question more. Taking into account
is this a greater risk for you to be on
every platform and have a supercomput in
your pocket or is it better to remove
yourself from these completely? Uh right now there's more views each month to
now there's more views each month to pornography than X uh Netflix, OpenAI
pornography than X uh Netflix, OpenAI and Zoom and Amazon combined. Right? So
and Zoom and Amazon combined. Right? So there's more traffic to these sites than
there's more traffic to these sites than any of these other platforms. Right?
any of these other platforms. Right? Average age is 11. It's getting close to
Average age is 11. It's getting close to seven.
seven. >> Average onset age.
>> Average onset age. >> Onset age of exposure is 11. Getting
>> Onset age of exposure is 11. Getting closer to seven. So that's a huge topic
closer to seven. So that's a huge topic right in itself. The way that's warping
right in itself. The way that's warping the human brain. Obviously dopamine. We
the human brain. Obviously dopamine. We go into that a lot with our curriculum.
go into that a lot with our curriculum. And that's a m you are if you are a high
And that's a m you are if you are a high school student with no boundaries or no
school student with no boundaries or no guardrails with that you are looking at
guardrails with that you are looking at pornograph. There's no way you're not
pornograph. There's no way you're not somehow being exposed at least, right?
somehow being exposed at least, right? Massive risk going to affect your future
Massive risk going to affect your future in every way possible. There's literally
in every way possible. There's literally Dr. Cardar talks about this. There's
Dr. Cardar talks about this. There's different uh s uh seminars he's been
different uh s uh seminars he's been going to where physicians are literally
going to where physicians are literally talking about erectile dysfunction in
talking about erectile dysfunction in high school students. I mean, if you
high school students. I mean, if you want to have an amazing intimate
want to have an amazing intimate >> like compulsive masturbation.
>> like compulsive masturbation. >> Oh, yeah. But if you want to have an
>> Oh, yeah. But if you want to have an amazing intimate sex life with one
amazing intimate sex life with one person for the rest of your life,
person for the rest of your life, >> the worst thing you can do is be
>> the worst thing you can do is be addicted to porn, you know, throughout
addicted to porn, you know, throughout your your childhood, right? So huge
your your childhood, right? So huge risk, right? Can't even go into depth of
risk, right? Can't even go into depth of how big that risk is. Then obviously the
how big that risk is. Then obviously the mental health crisis which is largely
mental health crisis which is largely unfolding with Gen Z, right? Which all
unfolding with Gen Z, right? Which all the data shows, Jonathan Heights work,
the data shows, Jonathan Heights work, it's 100%, you know, over 100% increased
it's 100%, you know, over 100% increased anxiety since 2010, depression since
anxiety since 2010, depression since 2010. Self harm has quadrupled amongst
2010. Self harm has quadrupled amongst 10 to 14 year old girls the last 10
10 to 14 year old girls the last 10 years. these body image issues. There's
years. these body image issues. There's literally a diagnosis now called
literally a diagnosis now called Snapchat dysphoria where young girls are
Snapchat dysphoria where young girls are going to plastic surgeons to literally
going to plastic surgeons to literally manipulate their face to look like their
manipulate their face to look like their Snapchat.
Snapchat. >> It's an Instagram thing, too. And Tik
>> It's an Instagram thing, too. And Tik Tok, but yeah, it's I mean, I think
Tok, but yeah, it's I mean, I think there's like the Kardashian look that
there's like the Kardashian look that everybody has to have like really big
everybody has to have like really big lips.
lips. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And the Kardashians are lovely ladies.
>> And the Kardashians are lovely ladies. I'm not trying to, you know, fault their
I'm not trying to, you know, fault their physiques, but they they've obviously
physiques, but they they've obviously achieved a certain look using
achieved a certain look using augmentation, using plastic surgery, and
augmentation, using plastic surgery, and they they're open about it. They talk
they they're open about it. They talk about it and so it's between a certain
about it and so it's between a certain shape of the nose, a certain shape of
shape of the nose, a certain shape of the lips, you know, certain even the
the lips, you know, certain even the brow. I think there's a huge um popular
brow. I think there's a huge um popular wave I'm seeing. It's called what is it
wave I'm seeing. It's called what is it called? It's for bluff bluff. Blleest
called? It's for bluff bluff. Blleest blasty. What is it called?
blasty. What is it called? >> Bluff upper bluff is what it's called.
>> Bluff upper bluff is what it's called. Basically, they cut their eyelids. Gosh.
Basically, they cut their eyelids. Gosh. >> To lift their eyebrows.
>> To lift their eyebrows. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Um but it's all because of how you look
>> Um but it's all because of how you look in pictures. This is what I've been So I
in pictures. This is what I've been So I mean a quick rant.
mean a quick rant. >> Yeah. Let's go rant me. When you meet
>> Yeah. Let's go rant me. When you meet people who have had plastic surgery
people who have had plastic surgery done,
done, >> you can tell most of the time. There's
>> you can tell most of the time. There's some very light Botox maybe that you
some very light Botox maybe that you won't notice, right? But with lip
won't notice, right? But with lip fillers, you can tell most of the time
fillers, you can tell most of the time with lip fillers, as an example, or
with lip fillers, as an example, or >> you know, certain facial things that are
>> you know, certain facial things that are done on social media, it's how you
done on social media, it's how you photograph. it looks maybe great or it
photograph. it looks maybe great or it looks like how AI would look or the
looks like how AI would look or the Kardashians or whatever, but in real
Kardashians or whatever, but in real life. So, it's like you're getting the
life. So, it's like you're getting the plastic surgery done for how you look on
plastic surgery done for how you look on Instagram or on Tik Tok. It's not even
Instagram or on Tik Tok. It's not even how you look in real life
how you look in real life >> because in real life people actually
>> because in real life people actually like more natural faces and there's
like more natural faces and there's studies that have been done that prove
studies that have been done that prove this.
this. >> I like that. I mean, so here so yeah,
>> I like that. I mean, so here so yeah, let's just keep going. Again, technology
let's just keep going. Again, technology is influencing us to literally change
is influencing us to literally change our bodies, not just to be addicted and
our bodies, not just to be addicted and screen time, but to change our bodies
screen time, but to change our bodies for how we're going to look on
for how we're going to look on technology.
technology. >> 100%. And this is why it's so important
>> 100%. And this is why it's so important to understand all of the trade-offs that
to understand all of the trade-offs that are happening. I don't think parents or
are happening. I don't think parents or millennials, I don't think most people
millennials, I don't think most people know how bad it is. And that's why I
know how bad it is. And that's why I think these conversations to me are more
think these conversations to me are more I want this to be more informational
I want this to be more informational that leads to action. I don't want this
that leads to action. I don't want this to be entertainment, right? I don't want
to be entertainment, right? I don't want people to view this and be like, "Oh,
people to view this and be like, "Oh, wow. That's really sad. like I'm not
wow. That's really sad. like I'm not going to do anything about it. Neil
going to do anything about it. Neil Postman's greatest fear is that politics
Postman's greatest fear is that politics and religion in a new media medium,
and religion in a new media medium, right? Marshall McLuhan said the medium
right? Marshall McLuhan said the medium is the message, right? The medium is
is the message, right? The medium is shaping us like in this digital world
shaping us like in this digital world that people are viewing us, you know,
that people are viewing us, you know, right now like this is shaping your
right now like this is shaping your thinking, your reality, your actions.
thinking, your reality, your actions. His greatest fear was that we would turn
His greatest fear was that we would turn religion and politics, two incredibly
religion and politics, two incredibly important topics, into entertainment,
important topics, into entertainment, right? And I think we're entertaining
right? And I think we're entertaining ourselves to death, right? Neil
ourselves to death, right? Neil Postman's book, Amusing Ourselves to
Postman's book, Amusing Ourselves to Death, is actually what's happening. But
Death, is actually what's happening. But let's keep going. So, you have
let's keep going. So, you have Tourette's. Tik Tok Tourette's syndrome.
Tourette's. Tik Tok Tourette's syndrome. Tik Tok Tourette's syndrome is a real
Tik Tok Tourette's syndrome is a real diagnosis that is happening where people
diagnosis that is happening where people are manifesting Tourette's from Tik Tok
are manifesting Tourette's from Tik Tok where influencers in the mental health
where influencers in the mental health space that are, you know, actually have
space that are, you know, actually have this diagnosis through social contagion
this diagnosis through social contagion effect. I talked to Jordan Peterson
effect. I talked to Jordan Peterson about this and I asked Jordan, I was
about this and I asked Jordan, I was like, "Is this a real thing?" saying and
like, "Is this a real thing?" saying and he's like social contagion effect is
he's like social contagion effect is nothing new. There's hysterical dancing
nothing new. There's hysterical dancing that happened you know the last like two
that happened you know the last like two centuries or something like social
centuries or something like social contagion is a very well doumented
contagion is a very well doumented documented phenomenon. There's literally
documented phenomenon. There's literally people that don't have Tourette's that
people that don't have Tourette's that are watching these influencers with
are watching these influencers with Tourette's and manifesting Tourette's
Tourette's and manifesting Tourette's syndromes and going into hospitals and
syndromes and going into hospitals and being diagnosed. Right. So you
being diagnosed. Right. So you >> by Tourette's you mean like just having
>> by Tourette's you mean like just having ticks?
ticks? >> Yes. Yes. You know what?
>> Yes. Yes. You know what? >> But they don't Yeah. But they don't have
>> But they don't Yeah. But they don't have them. They don't have them. They
them. They don't have them. They literally will do these detoxes for
literally will do these detoxes for >> Isn't that the entire transgender
>> Isn't that the entire transgender ideology wave if that there's like a I
ideology wave if that there's like a I don't what's the number? Is it a fifth
don't what's the number? Is it a fifth of students or there's like some crazy
of students or there's like some crazy percentage? It's like 10 10% to 20% of
percentage? It's like 10 10% to 20% of young people think they might be the
young people think they might be the other gender. Can you look it up Paris?
other gender. Can you look it up Paris? Actually, I don't know if you know
Actually, I don't know if you know >> 1400% increase at least in Ireland. I
>> 1400% increase at least in Ireland. I was just reading of transgender and and
was just reading of transgender and and I think Cardaris talks about a 4,000%
I think Cardaris talks about a 4,000% increase once these technologies were
increase once these technologies were released. So, here's the 2010 number
released. So, here's the 2010 number when Jonathan Height's talking about
when Jonathan Height's talking about what happened in 2010 where all this
what happened in 2010 where all this just got ramped up. Do you actually know
just got ramped up. Do you actually know what he says in this? No, tell me.
what he says in this? No, tell me. >> I think it's real.
>> I think it's real. >> The frontfacing camera on the
>> The frontfacing camera on the smartphone.
smartphone. >> Wow.
>> Wow. >> Because all of a sudden, life became
>> Because all of a sudden, life became something that was performed. Car
something that was performed. Car Nicholas Carr talks about this. We are
Nicholas Carr talks about this. We are now the watcher and the watched.
now the watcher and the watched. >> So, the sharp decline in mental health.
>> So, the sharp decline in mental health. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> The sharp increase in these social
>> The sharp increase in these social contagion illnesses. Yes. including I
contagion illnesses. Yes. including I would say transgenderism
would say transgenderism >> and I think LGBTQ identification has
>> and I think LGBTQ identification has like just mushroomed in the last decade.
like just mushroomed in the last decade. >> Jonathan Height says it starts with the
>> Jonathan Height says it starts with the front-facing Yes.
front-facing Yes. >> camera on the iPhone.
>> camera on the iPhone. >> 2010 is when that came out. Yeah, I
>> 2010 is when that came out. Yeah, I think it's sense because that is the the
think it's sense because that is the the it isn't it is a curious design because
it isn't it is a curious design because I remember I mean you mentioned self
I remember I mean you mentioned self harm. What was the increased number for
harm. What was the increased number for self harm in young
self harm in young >> it's quadrupled amongst 10 to 14y old
>> it's quadrupled amongst 10 to 14y old girls specifically
girls specifically >> in the last decade or what's the time
>> in the last decade or what's the time frame? I mean, in high school, I
frame? I mean, in high school, I remember Zangga. I would journal on
remember Zangga. I would journal on Zangga. Do you remember Zangga?
Zangga. Do you remember Zangga? >> Kind of. Yeah.
>> Kind of. Yeah. >> Okay. I wasn't really MySpace. I was
>> Okay. I wasn't really MySpace. I was Zangga. Okay.
Zangga. Okay. >> But anyways, we would journal and I had
>> But anyways, we would journal and I had my girlfriends and we But there was a
my girlfriends and we But there was a social contagion of self harm in my
social contagion of self harm in my friend group. All these girls having
friend group. All these girls having existential crises, going through
existential crises, going through puberty, not get we didn't have very
puberty, not get we didn't have very good support, some of us. Anyways,
good support, some of us. Anyways, everyone was self harming. One girl
everyone was self harming. One girl starts. I experimented with it at a
starts. I experimented with it at a certain point cuz I was suffering
certain point cuz I was suffering depression. Anyways, it was all
depression. Anyways, it was all connected to social contagion. Yeah. And
connected to social contagion. Yeah. And this was before. I mean, I didn't grow
this was before. I mean, I didn't grow up with Tik Tok. I did not grow up with
up with Tik Tok. I did not grow up with Instagram. Thanks be to God. I didn't
Instagram. Thanks be to God. I didn't have those things, right? It would have
have those things, right? It would have been it would have, you know, sounds
been it would have, you know, sounds like would have ruined both of us, even
like would have ruined both of us, even worse than, you know, our issues were.
worse than, you know, our issues were. Um, but I think about the fact that that
Um, but I think about the fact that that existed then, like self harm was an
existed then, like self harm was an issue that was growing among young girls
issue that was growing among young girls back in the early 2000s, right?
back in the early 2000s, right? >> Now, it is like everywhere. And then
>> Now, it is like everywhere. And then there's the extreme self harm of like,
there's the extreme self harm of like, I'm going to be the other gender. I'm
I'm going to be the other gender. I'm gonna get a double masectomy. I'm going
gonna get a double masectomy. I'm going to take hormones and stunt my puberty
to take hormones and stunt my puberty and my my sexual social sex sexual
and my my sexual social sex sexual development and everything else. Um,
development and everything else. Um, >> and and you're saying, and Jonathan
>> and and you're saying, and Jonathan hates saying the real cliff moment for
hates saying the real cliff moment for the changes here was 2010 with the
the changes here was 2010 with the iPhone's frontfacing camera.
iPhone's frontfacing camera. >> Yeah. And this is some of Car's, you
>> Yeah. And this is some of Car's, you know, critique, too, is like now
know, critique, too, is like now everyone is famous, right? Your life,
everyone is famous, right? Your life, every moment of your day. Just think
every moment of your day. Just think about your Tik Tok scroll, your
about your Tik Tok scroll, your Instagram scroll. It's people
Instagram scroll. It's people communicating, you know, through a
communicating, you know, through a screen ideas. Again, we're social
screen ideas. Again, we're social creatures, so we're getting a dopamine
creatures, so we're getting a dopamine hit from just learning what they're
hit from just learning what they're saying. But here's some of the other
saying. But here's some of the other things that are being fractured, right?
things that are being fractured, right? Is our attention span, but also our
Is our attention span, but also our thinking. So, Dr. Car or Dr. Cordar
thinking. So, Dr. Car or Dr. Cordar talks about this as well. We're actually
talks about this as well. We're actually experiencing more dichomous thinking
experiencing more dichomous thinking compared to spectrum thinking. And so,
compared to spectrum thinking. And so, dichomous is really black and white,
dichomous is really black and white, really binary. We actually can't think
really binary. We actually can't think on a spectrum anymore. And that's
on a spectrum anymore. And that's actually what creates the best that's
actually what creates the best that's the best predictor of success. So uh Dr.
the best predictor of success. So uh Dr. Paul Torrance did this torance tolerance
Paul Torrance did this torance tolerance test. They followed uh university
test. They followed uh university students out of Michigan like for 70
students out of Michigan like for 70 years or something like that and studied
years or something like that and studied their trajectory looked at their life
their trajectory looked at their life and actually showed that creativity was
and actually showed that creativity was the best projector uh predictor sorry of
the best projector uh predictor sorry of success in their life. It wasn't
success in their life. It wasn't soioeconomic status, their IQ or even
soioeconomic status, their IQ or even the amount of money they made. It was
the amount of money they made. It was the level of creativity that actually
the level of creativity that actually created the most success in their life.
created the most success in their life. Sher Turkl talked about this in
Sher Turkl talked about this in reclaiming attention and uh or sorry
reclaiming attention and uh or sorry reclaiming conversation and alone
reclaiming conversation and alone together. Those two books are crucial,
together. Those two books are crucial, but she's talking about this. We're in a
but she's talking about this. We're in a creativity crisis. So we're not thinking
creativity crisis. So we're not thinking about again all the other things that
about again all the other things that are happening. So while you're scrolling
are happening. So while you're scrolling and possibly looking at something
and possibly looking at something amazing, possibly looking at something
amazing, possibly looking at something bad, what it's eroding is actually your
bad, what it's eroding is actually your capacity for nuance and deep thinking.
capacity for nuance and deep thinking. >> So Dr. Arthur Brooks talks about this.
>> So Dr. Arthur Brooks talks about this. I'm sorry. I might steal some of his
I'm sorry. I might steal some of his stuff for this next show. But you know
stuff for this next show. But you know this default mode network of the brain
this default mode network of the brain actually boredom is the birthplace. It's
actually boredom is the birthplace. It's the oasis of creativity. So if you want
the oasis of creativity. So if you want to be successful in life, in business,
to be successful in life, in business, in relationships, you want to prioritize
in relationships, you want to prioritize creativity in your life for many
creativity in your life for many different reasons. Again, just think of
different reasons. Again, just think of your normal scrolling day. you're
your normal scrolling day. you're actually being inundated with
actually being inundated with information on such a intensive overload
information on such a intensive overload that you aren't given the capacity to
that you aren't given the capacity to deeply think through these ideas. So
deeply think through these ideas. So here's what I even noticed in the
here's what I even noticed in the podcast world. I am obsessed with
podcast world. I am obsessed with information, right? I have a problem.
information, right? I have a problem. I'm obsessed with knowledge. I was
I'm obsessed with knowledge. I was listening to podcasts on my drive, on my
listening to podcasts on my drive, on my workout, on my walk, in bed. I wanted to
workout, on my walk, in bed. I wanted to learn at all times, right?
learn at all times, right? I noticed that learning in this way just
I noticed that learning in this way just even through podcasts which are really
even through podcasts which are really good information and it was Bishop Baron
good information and it was Bishop Baron and it was named the people and it was
and it was named the people and it was every health podcast you could ever
every health podcast you could ever imagine. I noticed I wasn't retaining a
imagine. I noticed I wasn't retaining a lot of information. I was indulging in a
lot of information. I was indulging in a lot but it wasn't actually creating real
lot but it wasn't actually creating real change in my life. It was mostly just
change in my life. It was mostly just turning into entertainment and it wasn't
turning into entertainment and it wasn't being actualized and it was also
being actualized and it was also overwhelming me in many ways. So that's
overwhelming me in many ways. So that's happening along as well. We're in an
happening along as well. We're in an information overload right today. Just
information overload right today. Just today on this show, there's going to be
today on this show, there's going to be over a million downloads of a podcast
over a million downloads of a podcast onto the internet. There will be enough
onto the internet. There will be enough information today for anyone who's going
information today for anyone who's going to live the next whatever 60 70 years to
to live the next whatever 60 70 years to not be able to listen to the amount of
not be able to listen to the amount of information just released today. So just
information just released today. So just think about how how much information is
think about how how much information is happening, the amount of quantity, it's
happening, the amount of quantity, it's overwhelming, right?
overwhelming, right? >> You were saying something just a moment
>> You were saying something just a moment ago. Um, it's all very compelling and
ago. Um, it's all very compelling and important, but you were saying
important, but you were saying >> we are all like the number one predictor
>> we are all like the number one predictor of success for anybody isn't
of success for anybody isn't socioeconomic, isn't IQ, isn't any of
socioeconomic, isn't IQ, isn't any of this. It is actually creativity which is
this. It is actually creativity which is very human made in God's image because
very human made in God's image because what is the creator designed us to be?
what is the creator designed us to be? >> I've actually never made that
>> I've actually never made that connection. We are we are to create like
connection. We are we are to create like that is and that was the command to Adam
that is and that was the command to Adam and Eve is um have dominion over the
and Eve is um have dominion over the world which is you know use the created
world which is you know use the created order and good to continue to create and
order and good to continue to create and to have life in full and abundant and
to have life in full and abundant and then multiply literally co-create with
then multiply literally co-create with me for new souls you know to populate
me for new souls you know to populate this beautiful world that I've created.
this beautiful world that I've created. So creation is like
So creation is like >> is such a deeply and uniquely human
>> is such a deeply and uniquely human thing because we're made in God's image
thing because we're made in God's image unlike any other animal in animal
unlike any other animal in animal kingdom. Anyways, um and if we are
kingdom. Anyways, um and if we are crushing our ability to create
crushing our ability to create >> you then we are hurting our own humanity
>> you then we are hurting our own humanity and the future and every relationships
and the future and every relationships everything else. But then you said
everything else. But then you said something about boredom and is that
something about boredom and is that connected I'm going to guess to leisure
connected I'm going to guess to leisure like creating space where there's no
like creating space where there's no agenda.
agenda. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Where
>> Where >> we don't know how to have leisure.
>> we don't know how to have leisure. >> We don't know how to have leisure.
>> We don't know how to have leisure. >> So I work I live in Lander Wyoming right
>> So I work I live in Lander Wyoming right now and that university the students are
now and that university the students are not allowed to have cell phones.
not allowed to have cell phones. >> There's a no cell phone policy at
>> There's a no cell phone policy at Wyoming Catholic College. I literally go
Wyoming Catholic College. I literally go there and I'm looking at the 90s. You
there and I'm looking at the 90s. You kids are I remember being shocked by
kids are I remember being shocked by this. I was just watching a a kid at the
this. I was just watching a a kid at the bus stop just looking around. It was so
bus stop just looking around. It was so shocking to me because what he wasn't
shocking to me because what he wasn't looking down his phone
looking down his phone >> so they can't even have the cell phone
>> so they can't even have the cell phone outside of the classroom.
outside of the classroom. >> Oh, there's no cell phones. You have to
>> Oh, there's no cell phones. You have to go to this university without a cell
go to this university without a cell phone. It's hilarious.
phone. It's hilarious. >> How do you call people?
>> How do you call people? >> They don't.
>> They don't. >> Can you have a Can you have a dumb
>> Can you have a Can you have a dumb phone?
phone? >> Nope.
>> Nope. >> Do is there a phone a phone line?
>> Do is there a phone a phone line? >> I don't probably. Yeah, they they
>> I don't probably. Yeah, they they >> in the dorm you can
>> in the dorm you can >> Yeah, probably. They like tell people do
>> Yeah, probably. They like tell people do a dial.
a dial. >> Yeah, probably. They tell people, "Hey,
>> Yeah, probably. They tell people, "Hey, go meet here. We're going to have a
go meet here. We're going to have a party tonight." Or the, you know,
party tonight." Or the, you know, >> no computers.
>> no computers. >> They can use computers,
>> They can use computers, >> but that's not They can't walk around.
>> but that's not They can't walk around. Obviously, if you're The point is you
Obviously, if you're The point is you can go sit down and do a dedicated work
can go sit down and do a dedicated work on a workstation computer, but you can't
on a workstation computer, but you can't be walking around with a super computer.
be walking around with a super computer. >> They're not allowed to have cell phones,
>> They're not allowed to have cell phones, no social media, all that stuff. I am
no social media, all that stuff. I am literally watching an experiment. I
literally watching an experiment. I mean, we're all in an experiment. This
mean, we're all in an experiment. This is what we have to understand. If you
is what we have to understand. If you are a modern human being today with the
are a modern human being today with the supercomput, you are in a social
supercomput, you are in a social experiment, right? That I'm trying to
experiment, right? That I'm trying to unpack for the world. what's happening
unpack for the world. what's happening to to give us some real answers of how
to to give us some real answers of how to move forward. And one of the other
to move forward. And one of the other things that's really important on the
things that's really important on the creativity side and the boredom side is
creativity side and the boredom side is that again that default mode network of
that again that default mode network of the brain, it has to turn on and it
the brain, it has to turn on and it doesn't turn on unless you're given
doesn't turn on unless you're given space. So now think about all of our
space. So now think about all of our days, right? We're in constant
days, right? We're in constant communication. I think the text message
communication. I think the text message has done more damage to human to humans
has done more damage to human to humans than almost anything else. This is like
than almost anything else. This is like a Oh, I think the text message was so
a Oh, I think the text message was so detrimental in so many ways and so
detrimental in so many ways and so great, right? This is again this
great, right? This is again this infinite good and infinite bad. There's
infinite good and infinite bad. There's there's parents that tell me just text
there's parents that tell me just text threads ruin their kids' life. And
threads ruin their kids' life. And >> what's the worst outcome in your view of
>> what's the worst outcome in your view of the text message? I mean, we talked
the text message? I mean, we talked earlier. I don't write letters anymore
earlier. I don't write letters anymore to my friends. I text them.
to my friends. I text them. >> Yeah. Well, this is for young people
>> Yeah. Well, this is for young people obviously more specifically, but think I
obviously more specifically, but think I even think about myself. How many
even think about myself. How many relationships were done over texting,
relationships were done over texting, texting late into the night, someone not
texting late into the night, someone not responding to my text, me watching that
responding to my text, me watching that they've seen the text and didn't respond
they've seen the text and didn't respond to the text, people breaking up over
to the text, people breaking up over text. Again, there's so many
text. Again, there's so many possibilities on just the text message.
possibilities on just the text message. It would take us the whole hour to go
It would take us the whole hour to go through. But for young people
through. But for young people specifically, cyber bullying, you know,
specifically, cyber bullying, you know, sending bad images,
sending bad images, >> texting,
>> texting, >> you know, uh just texting has this
>> you know, uh just texting has this possibility of so many negative
possibility of so many negative outcomes. And then it's great to check
outcomes. And then it's great to check in with the family and send a fun
in with the family and send a fun picture and have the group text with the
picture and have the group text with the fam and send all these amazing things.
fam and send all these amazing things. So that's why again it's it's so
So that's why again it's it's so difficult to make a prescription per
difficult to make a prescription per person because it's going to be so
person because it's going to be so individual.
individual. >> Let's go to principles then because I
>> Let's go to principles then because I know this is what you do and I think
know this is what you do and I think it's really important. You do obviously
it's really important. You do obviously workshops and trainings on this but for
workshops and trainings on this but for humanity what are your prescriptions?
humanity what are your prescriptions? Yes,
Yes, >> I know they include these principles for
>> I know they include these principles for how to use social media technology
how to use social media technology >> and you know back to those Wyoming
>> and you know back to those Wyoming Catholic kids as an example for the
Catholic kids as an example for the college familiar with Lander. Great
college familiar with Lander. Great great spot. um the you know I think
great spot. um the you know I think about them I think okay if you're not
about them I think okay if you're not using those media forms
using those media forms so much of business today drives is
so much of business today drives is driven by those media
driven by those media >> totally forms
>> totally forms >> totally
>> totally >> and that's not going away likely
>> and that's not going away likely >> and so how do you responsibly use it not
>> and so how do you responsibly use it not just how do you responsibly use social
just how do you responsibly use social media in your personal life if you're
media in your personal life if you're going to use it at all
going to use it at all >> how do you responsibly use it if you are
>> how do you responsibly use it if you are working
working >> yes
>> yes >> and you are creating Because a lot of a
>> and you are creating Because a lot of a lot of creation is happening in a way
lot of creation is happening in a way that is more um that is less about like
that is more um that is less about like you know how many how do I meet my
you know how many how do I meet my immediate physical needs
immediate physical needs >> right
>> right >> like the robots are going to do that for
>> like the robots are going to do that for us in the future right and it's more
us in the future right and it's more about well what are the very uniquely
about well what are the very uniquely human things
human things >> that I can create that maybe technology
>> that I can create that maybe technology can help me do
can help me do >> right yes so we're so my idea obviously
>> right yes so we're so my idea obviously reading like 40 plus topics on what this
reading like 40 plus topics on what this is doing to us and we just scratched the
is doing to us and we just scratched the surface of the problems that are
surface of the problems that are unfolding right there's an insane amount
unfolding right there's an insane amount more and then there's a lot of good
more and then there's a lot of good that's happening on a lot of these
that's happening on a lot of these platforms like this one we're on today,
platforms like this one we're on today, right? So for a personal prescription,
right? So for a personal prescription, right, on how to use this tech and let
right, on how to use this tech and let it not and how to let it not use you,
it not and how to let it not use you, you first have to understand, okay, what
you first have to understand, okay, what what technologies are you going to
what technologies are you going to interact with and how are you going to
interact with and how are you going to interact with them. So when you start
interact with them. So when you start our program, our detox program, you
our program, our detox program, you start with your digital plan of life,
start with your digital plan of life, right? So I stole a little bit from
right? So I stole a little bit from Escrea, Jose Maria Screva,
Escrea, Jose Maria Screva, >> but this idea of creating a plan. Okay.
>> but this idea of creating a plan. Okay. So certain technologies I would say are
So certain technologies I would say are upgrading our lives and then certain
upgrading our lives and then certain technologies are downgrading our lives.
technologies are downgrading our lives. For most people I would say
For most people I would say our age and younger most people share
our age and younger most people share with me they don't I don't hear anyone
with me they don't I don't hear anyone saying I want to scroll more. I don't
saying I want to scroll more. I don't really hear anyone coming to me saying
really hear anyone coming to me saying you know I want to be on my phone more.
you know I want to be on my phone more. It's mostly okay I know I have to be on
It's mostly okay I know I have to be on this. I can't get off of it. I wish I
this. I can't get off of it. I wish I could do what you're doing but I have to
could do what you're doing but I have to be on these things for XYZ. How do I get
be on these things for XYZ. How do I get my time back? Right? One of the things
my time back? Right? One of the things that's super important for longevity and
that's super important for longevity and health that we touched on is
health that we touched on is relationships is is relationships. So,
relationships is is relationships. So, the longest standing study since 1938 is
the longest standing study since 1938 is the adult uh development study at
the adult uh development study at Harvard. The number one data point from
Harvard. The number one data point from that is healthy relationships is the
that is healthy relationships is the best predictor of longevity. Actually,
best predictor of longevity. Actually, more than diet, more than exercise, more
more than diet, more than exercise, more than socioeconomic status, more than
than socioeconomic status, more than your area code. Right? So, right now
your area code. Right? So, right now there's a study called the American
there's a study called the American usage of time study. It it it followed
usage of time study. It it it followed 15 to 24 year olds from 2000 to 2019 and
15 to 24 year olds from 2000 to 2019 and showed that their FaceTime their
showed that their FaceTime their in-person FaceTime dropped from 167
in-person FaceTime dropped from 167 minutes I think to uh 66 minutes a day.
minutes I think to uh 66 minutes a day. >> Wait, what?
>> Wait, what? >> So their their their amount of FaceTime
>> So their their their amount of FaceTime per day was about 166 minutes a day of
per day was about 166 minutes a day of FaceTime.
FaceTime. >> What age group?
>> What age group? >> Uh 15 to 24.
>> Uh 15 to 24. >> So it used to be that if you're 15 to 24
>> So it used to be that if you're 15 to 24 years old, you had 166 minutes of
years old, you had 166 minutes of FaceTime. And now the 15 to 24 year olds
FaceTime. And now the 15 to 24 year olds have how much facetime?
have how much facetime? >> It's like under 66 minutes which per
>> It's like under 66 minutes which per year is 400 less hours of relational
year is 400 less hours of relational facetime. Twothirds of
facetime. Twothirds of >> all Americans or that that's 15 to 24
>> all Americans or that that's 15 to 24 and
and >> for is the are these Americans we're
>> for is the are these Americans we're talking about? Sorry.
