The content presents a critical perspective on the West's perceived moral superiority, arguing that Western nations exhibit significant hypocrisy and control over information and dissent, mirroring aspects of Chinese society, and that a more nuanced understanding of global issues requires acknowledging shared flaws and historical contexts.
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We come much earlier than weigars being
re-educated in 1957. So the West the
concept about that is really not
respectful because you are choosing
topics rather than giving a even hands
about the situation. That means you are
you you don't have integrity in what are
you talking about. We are about same
generation. He's 3 years older than me.
I don't even know him.
His father and my father are close uh
friend. Mhm.
And of course we are in the
>> They're both punished? Huh? They're both punished?
punished?
Yes, his father also punished for a
while. I said something the West have no
moral position even to post fingers to
China because just just look at the
mirror what you did in past years, you
know, in relate to all the international
events in relate to Israel Gaza event in
What I've been really interested you've
got a book out at the moment on
censorship. And I said in the in the introduction
introduction
I get the sense that you think we in the
West sit here and we we look at China
and we think this is a repressive
country. They have no free speech. They
don't believe in human rights.
But your experience of the West seems to
have led you to conclude that actually
there's not that much difference.
I'm really interested in how you
how you make that argument. Well, it
started early when US invaded the
uh Iraq.
That time I was in New York. I was in
part of this anti-war
um coverage. I I take my photos and then
you know demonstration. I realized
the one demonstrate uh have a less
people than the police. Police uh on the
two side of a street. For the bypasser
you cannot even see demonstrators. You
only see police there.
So you can see this is typical police
state. You would allow people to
demonstrate but their voice can never be
really covered
or even those act up, you know, those uh
uh gays parade
demonstration can never be heard. They
have to find a strategy to running on
highway to stop the highway then
journalists would report the incident.
So this is very established capitalism society,
society,
media and
uh the
education and the
is all being controlled so well
and to tell you what is wrong, what is
right and uh
which is not so different from the Chinese
Chinese
uh society except it seems
yes, you can have some voice but your
voice can never really be heard.
>> There's a very interesting moment with
Alexander Solzhenitsyn when he moves
from Russia to America. He criticized
America. He had been a dissident
criticizing the Soviet Union.
And then in a famous speech he
criticized America. But it's very
difficult to hear because we want to say
come on, these two things are not the
same. You know, nobody detains you for
81 days
in America. Nobody puts your father in exile.
exile.
>> You know how long uh Julian Assange has been
been
in British jail? I visited the jail. I
visited court. I visited embassy while
he was hiding. I know exactly the whole
case. He was pulled out by British agent
from the embassy. That is already pretty
strange image. Everybody will remember
he was carried out.
Then he was being put in there without
those highway public pressure
he can end up his life in there. So then
now you ask what kind of crime he really
made. You know, so-called this uh
WikiLeaks platform today everybody has a
You know, it's not
that he just live it early trying to
expose. But without that even the file
relate to this this island Jeffrey
Epstein? Uh yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> You know, come on. We all know what's
going on. But then that file is still
not open, you know. The only possibility
like WikiLeaks can open it. That guy
even can commit suicide in jail. Can
believe it? And then they said that the
the camera is not working. Come on, we
have six, eight cameras here. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter]
>> It It must be strange for you because
the West saw you as a Chinese dissident.
They liked you criticizing China.
Now you criticize the West so it they
must get surprised or uncomfortable.
>> It's true. It's true. It's so
uncomfortable after even yesterday I
criticized the
you know
I said something the West have no moral
position even to post fingers to China
because just just look at the mirror
what you did in past years, you know, in
relate to all the international
events in relate to Israel Gaza event in
relate to in almost every respect.
What What is really being openly
discussed and uh you know, so But if
somebody like if somebody like Julian Assange
Assange >> [gasps]
>> [gasps]
>> had done the equivalent in China
there is a fair chance he would be dead
by now.
And where are weigars? What What What
would you say was the West's weigars?
Would you say that's the Palestinians?
>> Or in Xinjiang the weigar? Our weigar
situation. I think the West about
weigars also is a problem. Because?
>> Um because you clearly put the
concentration camps, you know, the to
use a name. We know conceptually use
certain names which has to clearly talk
about something else. And then the
weigar has been re-educated in in some
areas but not start weigars. That's for
me. My father as a
Han nationality
uh not Han Han race people.
We come much earlier than weigars being
re-educated in 1957. So the West the
topics rather than giving a even hands
about the situation. That means you are
you you don't have integrity in what are
you talking about. That's why I keep uh criticize
criticize
>> But the weigar the weigars themselves
we've talked to the weigars who are
based in London. They talk about
concentration camps. They say that's the
reality of the life of the people that
they've left behind. That was That could
be true. But you cannot talk about
weigars not talk about Gaza. Gaza has
been longest uh prison
prison
for decades.
>> Mhm. You know that Would you say that's
an equivalent? It's more than
equivalent. It's much harsh situation in
Gaza. You know what happens
all the women's and children being
killed. Weigar not being killed in that
this kind of education. They in Chinese
words they have been trained with some
skills, with some broken propaganda education.
education.
You know, for them
is what they did to me. Where do you
think Chinese culture is going in the
next 10, 20 years? Do you think
people will begin to rediscover the
past? They will show more respect for
traditional classical culture or is that
fading? What's happening with the China has
has
a lot of a sense to do to fill up the
gap between 2000 and 1900 to
this 120 years. And they have been in
such up and down tremendous
uh unthinkable ideology
switch from feudalism communist then it
become a post state. You cannot call it
a communist but you cannot call it a
capitalism. So it's really a new a new
society. So they have a lot to learn and
uh they have a lot to catch up. Can I
just go back to the the parallels
between West and East
um on freedom of speech. As you said,
Keir Starmer, our Prime Minister, in
China and anybody in Britain can go out
and can protest against him visiting.
They can say that it's the wrong thing
to do. Indeed, many politicians have
said that it's the wrong thing to do,
and he can defend himself against that
criticism. Whereas, you couldn't make
the same case against, let's say, that
Xi Jinping came here.
The Chinese state would make sure that
there was very little public opposition
to that of any kind. No, when when when
when the ambassador the
the
Cambridge give a talk there's a one
uh Western
boy threw the a shoe to him, if you
still remember that incident. Of course,
that is quite shocking for Chinese.
Insult a [clears throat]
public official. But throw a shoes to a uh
uh
uh you know, um
a state leader
it's not started from that boy, but a
journalist threw the shoes to a push.
push.
Mhm. While he give a talk. Yep. And that journalist
journalist
was being put in jail for years.
You know that. So,
let's check on the facts.
So, I'm a good journalist. I I try to
make myself balanced view. And
you know, if you check on the British
record, there's over 1,200 people being
put in jail over so-called hate speech
in just recent study.
>> You sound a lot Elon Musk now.
Elon Musk? He's he always complains
about hate speech.
>> that Well, I don't sound like anybody. I
just based on facts. It is 1,200 people
in jail because based on the so-called
hate speech. But do you think the
research you're doing is hate speech?
Well, that's a very vague
words. I think hate speech should be
same crime as love speech philosophically.
philosophically.
What do you make of Donald Trump
historically, culturally? What do you
think of Donald Trump? What does he represent?
represent?
>> he's a truly a phenomenon. Someone being
elected, then someone being dumped, then
somebody being elected again.
That we call it democratic practice, right?
right? So
So
>> And what does he tell us about American
culture or world culture? I think it's
the best product of American culture.
Capitalism come to a clear nude uh
ideology of
make a deal. Uh art of a deal. So, all
he concentrated is about deal. It's not
no ideology, no philosophy, but
let's see what kind of deal comes out.
And the corruption and the lies and the Corruption?
Corruption?
I'm not entitled to tell about
corruption because I I know very little
about the
corruption, but I would say certainly it
would be huge corruption because I just
you heard his personal gaining of profit
could be I don't know. His number is
hard to remember. 3 billion or
something. But I don't know you can call
it corruption or it's just a political gaining.
gaining.
>> Of all the countries you've lived in,
rank them
in order of the country that you felt
was closest to your sense of what a
country should feel like. You've had
China, you've had Britain, you've had
Germany, you've had Portugal. Is there
any one of those countries cuz you said
at the start you never really felt at
home in China, you never really felt at
home in the United States. Where have
you felt most
>> Well, I am I'm a global citizen.
citizen.
>> Not even citizen. Citizen means you're
you have a certain rights to be called a citizen.
citizen.
I'm just uh
I don't know. A creature which maybe
most fitting to my ideology would be the moon.
moon.
The moon? Yeah. You sound a lot Elon
Musk again now.
He doesn't really interested in the
moon. He interested in some
>> Mars. He's Mars guy.
>> Yeah, I think he should be sent into Mars.
Mars.
>> Okay. Le- one-way ticket. Yes.
Are you interested in the idea of the
scholar gentleman, like your father,
your grandfather? Do you think this is
an important idea for life? I think it
is absolutely most important idea of of
a individual can
can be
proud of.
It's to be a
independent thinker and to act on your
belief. And explain a little bit more
about the idea of of this Chinese idea
for people so they can understand.
Chinese idea about our scholar rather is
not just to help to build your inner
strength, but also to serve the the
mass, to serve the people. So, the in
old time all the king and the scholars
only have one goal to to serve the
bigger purpose. You know, can be poet,
can be writer. They all write a
calligraphy. They all have a deep
understanding of past. And that always
been considered as a highest ritual. You
said earlier you had a lot of respect
for Mao or there was a lot of respect
for Mao. You clearly had respect for
Deng Xiaoping.
What's your assessment of President Xi?
We are about same generation. He's 3
years older than me. I don't even know him.
him.
His father and my father are close
friends. Mhm.
And of course, we are
>> punished? Huh? They were both punished?
Yes, his father also punished for a
while. But uh you know, that's in
revolution. Being polished
How do you say? Being
purged or it's not exactly a bad thing,
you know, because it's too many
struggles in different moment. I cannot
give personal
How do you say? Adjustment about him?
>> yeah. Yeah, assessment only because
I'm not in the same position. I'm as
individual artist, he's taking care of
this uh bigger state. But from foreign
policy, I would
agree with him.
Not him, but China's national policy in
relate to uh Middle East, in relate to
uh world peace, in relate to um nobody
should or interfere other nations uh
business. Not like US, not like Britain.
But Russia and Ukraine? Huh? Russia and
Ukraine? Russia and Ukraine, they also
uh kept themselves as a neutral
position. They are not really support
Russian. They are they are associated
with Russian because geopolitics. It's
uh if they don't, you know,
because US. Also because US. You know,
with our NATO, with our US, there's no
such a war. So, you This is clear. Mhm.
Can I We we're moving back and forth,
but I think my final question I want to
bring you back to the idea of the
scholar and the gentleman. So Thank
[laughter] you. Uh
Uh So
So
For example, in the Tang Dynasty Mhm.
often the officials would leave the
Imperial Court and then they would
return back to the countryside. Tell me
a little bit about what this means in
terms of people's lives, the meaning of
their life, their spirituality. I >> [clears throat]
>> [clears throat]
>> thank you for mentioning those details
because I sense you are
profound scholar in terms of history. I
only can from my experience when during
Cultural Revolution at the although very
end Chairman Mao had a idea all the educated
educated
university students should go
back to factory and the farmer. Farming,
they said this is a a much bigger
world and uh you can do so many things
when you're there. At beginning, people
do not really understand, but I do
understand. You know, President Xi has
been working in the very bottom. I grew
up in the very bottom. So, I think what
teaches the most is not school, but it's
really about society, about the people,
about struggle from the bottom. My final
question. I mentioned in the
introduction that you've you've focused
a lot in your work now on the theme of
refugees. And as we said, you you lived
in Germany and there was a point where
Germany took in an awful lot of Syrian
refugees. And you said this, "Europeans
should not have the privilege to feel
any moral superiority. Asking for
gratitude from those who are struggling
makes me sick." And I just wondered what
what
what you think governments should be
doing about the extraordinary refugee
flows in Europe?
>> a question with such a
complex level. Now, we are dealing
something like Let's Let's say it's a
cancer. Then in the West, we always
think that cancer we have to cut it off.
We have to use all kind of treatment.
But if it's Chinese medicine, we think
we have to provide that become a cancer.
That's a living style. That's That's
some kind of philosophy. So, and what
are you eating? How what you're behaving.
behaving.
So, prevent that is much more important than
than
to just treat it. That's the Chinese
medicine's philosophy. I totally agree.
With refugee situation, we have to look
at the history of why the so so many
people have to pull out themselves with
their family, you know, their language,
their tradition, their religion, come to
some place like Germany or Switzerland
which completely
very hard
to to settle.
You know, even for me not as that kind
of refugee still very hard for me to settle.
settle.
So, [clears throat]
we have to have a compassion and to understand
understand
they are escaped the war
and the famine and the who caused those
war and famine. We have to really
question ourselves why we don't help
them to stay at their home. Thank you
very much. Thank you Ai Weiwei.
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