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Hyperliquid Founder: Why Crypto Must Fix Finance Before AI Takes Over - Jeff Yan | E159

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Summary

Core Theme

Hyperliquid is building a decentralized financial system designed to be the "internet for money," emphasizing transparency, fairness, and programmability to upgrade existing financial infrastructure and prepare for a future where AI will necessitate machine-driven value transfer.

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Some pretty smart people in crypto have

only criticized Hyperlid for buying back

the tokens every day. What's the main

problem with this?

>> The main problem is that Hyperlid does

not have a discretionary buyback

program. In the same way that Ethereum

burns its priority fees, in that same

way, Hyperlid burns its protocol fees.

>> Crypto markets have been pretty

disappointing for a lot of people. Why

should people stay in crypto when there

is an AI brain drain? My answer to that

question is

>> Jeff Yan, the founder and CEO of

Hyperlquid Labs,

>> building a layer 1 blockchain with an

onchain order book exchange generating

billions in volume

>> and millions in daily revenue.

>> 1010 was a good example where there was

damage caused because Hyperlid was the

only transparent venue. People kind of

like latched on to it.

>> What do you want Hyperlid to be

remembered for?

>> I don't want it to be remembered for

anything, but I hope Hyperlid becomes

the internet for money.

>> Hyperlid is not a crypto company. It's a

finance company using crypto real. Can

you explain?

>> I think we generally believe in DeFi's

values. I think finance is finance and

crypto has the potential to upgrade the

rails on which people conduct their

financial lives.

>> You often talk about housing all of

finance. What does that mean?

>> It basically means that the financial

system should not be fragmented. The

crypto part of housing all of finance is

that the platform on which people do

this should not be controlled by a

central corporation. There should be

many teams building and when someone

builds something that should

automatically plug in with other teams

building other things and like these

kind of network effects really make it a

financial system. What's the

responsibility that comes with

generating billions of dollars like that

>> Hi everyone. This is the little bit that

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>> What do you think about Singapore?

>> What do I think about it?

>> Uh it's it's very nice. Yeah, it's a

good good place to build. It's super

safe. It's modern. things work and

yeah, it's very boring. People say it's

people say that as a bad thing, but it's

actually a very positive thing for me.

>> It's an amazing finish

>> because you just you just build and it's

it's a perfect place to do that.

>> No distractions.

>> Yeah, we recorded our last episode about

13 or 14 months ago, just before the

hype token launch.

We had crazy views actually about

700,000 across platforms and then the TG

happened. A lot of people got rich. Some

people got very rich.

I think about $1 billion was a drop to

the hyperlquid community and then this

$1 billion became $10 billion in a few months.

months.

How did it feel like watching that for you?

you?

>> I felt very good. Yeah. I think it's

it's rare that the people who are early

to something can all participate in the

upside and gain meaningful ownership

over a network. I think that it's very

special and that's something that I

think is one of the things that

is uniquely crypto. I think crypto is a

bit of a double-edged sword, right?

there's a lot of a lot of negativity due

to the

you know innovative structuring of just

like value creation in crypto but I

think there's also positive stories and

I think it's important to to highlight

those and so it was it was very very

nice to see because often with

you know if you're very early to using chatbt

chatbt

it's not like open AI is going to make

you rich like maybe you built something

really cool but that's if you you know

That's like one in a thousand maybe. But

with Hyperlquid or with crypto in

general, it's it's very cool that simply

by by being early and by providing a

valuable service of participating in a

network where the network effects are so

important, you can become a sort of

meaningful owner of the network. Uh I

think that's very special. Did you have

any moment where you it kind of hit you

emotionally like, "Oh [ __ ] we really

pulled this off, but so many other

people did not manage to." Um,

no one specific moment. I think it's always

always

it's always cool to see the traction,

but we don't we're not very at least I'm

not really of the personality to say

kind of, okay, that's cool, like we made

it. Sort of. I'm always thinking the oh,

but what haven't we done yet? and like

where where should we be and the know

the vision is is so big that it's in

some sense like I you just know you're

never going to get very close very

quickly and I think that's that's a

positive thing as as well because for me

that's the it's it's about the journey

not necessarily the destination.

>> Did you expect that scale of wealth creation?

creation?

>> Not immediately. I I honestly don't

really I also don't really think what I

expect at any point. We're just trying

to do the best we can and we know the

direction we're going and what we're

trying to build, but we don't really

at least I don't write down like I think

a month from now would be great if these

quantitative metrics were hit. like

that's not that's just not something I

do because I think there's so much

outside of our control as contributors

and we need to focus on we need to focus

on doing the right thing and the output

you know is is largely a function of

what we do but also all these things

outside of our control and so um I was

definitely surprised though at the sort

of the overwhelmingly positive

reception. I think it's very nice to

it's very nice to hear things like oh

this is it's like rare it you people say

oh it's cool to see this happening in

crypto this was this is kind of like

what's supposed to happen and it's rare

to find examples when people say things

like that and and they say that you know

Hyperlid has positively represented what

could happen in this space I think

that's that brings me a lot of

fulfillment because I'm a genuine

believer in in this model in free

markets and I think there are so many

examples that people can point to to say

this doesn't work that to be one where

you can argue against those haters I

think is uh is very nice.

>> Do you think

that it's I mean it's obviously

extremely hard to to do what you did but

do you think that enough people are

actually trying to do the right thing

the right way

>> in crypto or in crypto? Um,

I think there is a general mismatch of

between what could get built and the

people trying to build it in crypto. I think

think

I think this is probably due to the bad

reputation crypto has gotten compared to

fields like AI or before AI it might

have been just traditional more

traditional financial

projects you could be building. Uh I think

think

I think if you're just someone who has a

lot of

potential and maybe graduated from a

good school or maybe just are very

talented and want to build something um

I think I today at least I think it's I

think a lot of these people are not even

seriously considering crypto because of

all the negative examples and the it's

sort of associated with

>> people who want to are not serious about

building something but are just kind of

want to

maybe quickly make some amount of money

or something like that. And I think

that's like completely false. Like I

just don't think that's the true

potential of the space. So

>> how do we change that?

>> Well, we're working we just we just

build what we believe in and we when I

say we, I mean the ecosystem broadly.

Like I think Hyperlquid is known for not

really caring about what what the meta

is or like what you know

what people think necessarily about like

theoretically about what should be built

but we just we just kind of like do what

we believe in as a community. And I think

think

I think that's probably the best we can

do is kind of like lead by example. And

there will always be I think as a

permissionless network there are always

sort of unfortunate examples of people

using whatever like trying like using

the community in a bit and then just

kind of like extracting for personal

gain. And it's unfortunate to see that.

But by and large, I think we have a

we've as a community is like very uh

there's there's a great culture and

I think if we just keep doing what we're

doing as a community, the hopefully,

you know, hopefully people pay attention

and it generally draws people to

building DeFi and crypto.

I think a lot of people are paying

attention indeed.

What's the responsibility that comes

with generating billions of dollars like

>> I don't know if the if that specific

if the specific event of the genesis

changes anything about the

responsibility. I think it's

there's inherently a lot of

responsibility in building anything

financial and I think if you kind of

have to give it your all and even then

it's you know it it can feel like

there's just so much to do because

finance is such an important part of

a person's life and when you when

someone uses a financial product

they are

inherently trusting in a very in a way

that you don't you don't have to get the

same trust to a consumer product. And so

yeah, I don't I don't have a great

answer in terms of like

we we basically just like try try our

best and have to we just know we have to execute

execute

flawlessly and maybe that means we we

move slower. Maybe that means we build

things in a way that's much harder to

build. I think there are many such

examples and

and it and it means we have to kind of

always be thinking about the principles of

designing a system to be so neutral,

fair and robust to all sorts of market

conditions. And that doesn't really

change with the with the TGE or anything

like even before then people were

trusting Hyperlid with you know being

like an onchain fully verifiable transparent

transparent

version of what they were tired of in in crypto.

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There's really this

before TG after TG moment. And I mean,

we we did this uh podcast maybe a month

before the TG. And one thing that I

always do to test communities because in

crypto there is so much fake stuff and

BS and it's I mean it's it's a

well-known issue, right? So I do a

picture which we did last time. We're

going to do again today and I post it

and see what happens and I saw like

these people going completely crazy and

I was like holy [ __ ] like this is even

bigger than I thought. So it was this

kind of cult but it was kind of like a a

cult a bit hidden. Obviously, there was

the people who understood it, but a lot

of people in crypto did not understand

what's going on, right? And then there

was a TG. And then there was all pretty

much everything done the right way. And

then you went from kind of like a cult

within crypto to the entire crypto cult.

Now you have the entire industry behind

you. How do you make or how do we make

Hyperlquid become

a cult for people outside of crypto who join?

I think you just have to build in a way

that provides value to people. And this

is for every builder, you know, whether

hyperlid or not. And

I think ultimately it is

it's not about it's not about building a

cult though. The I think the cultlike

vibes people associate with Hyperlid is

really just people being passionate about

about

a group of people building towards a

common goal with a value system that

they can really buy into. And I think

that's just because it's kind of rare to

find in crypto. I think people really

align and it kind of feels like a cult.

But I I don't I wouldn't call it a cult

people just coming together and to like

kind of build things in the right way

with the right values and be fair to

everyone and create an open financial

system to me feels like just uh you know

just if I feel like it should be normal

and I think

to on board the whole world basically

we just have to prove as a community

that we can we can build things that

provide value in a way that the legacy

finan cial system cannot and I'm very

confident that that we can. I think the

I think DeFi as a whole has always had

this this promise and that what there

has been

up until now has been more of a it's

been more of a technical disconnect

between the philosophy and what can be

built. You know, open financial systems

are everyone agrees. There's no

controversy that this is a great thing

for the world and it's just a matter of

the execution and

sort of not letting

like not not letting

whatever whether it be like bad people

or like your own vices or something like

that like get in the way. I think

there's a bit of maybe there's a bit of

that kind of temptation for some

builders in the space and I think solve

those two things execution and just like

do things the right way and I think I

think naturally this um this is like a

huge technical upgrade to to the

financial system and I think people

will naturally come on board when uh

when it's clear that this is like an

upgrade. What's one thing that massively

changed on the operational side between

this before token generation event

Nothing really. I think for me it's it's

never really been about

creating X dollars of value or

something. It's always been just

building. And to me, it felt like the

it felt more like a

an important milestone in the network's decentralization

decentralization than

than

an operational difference. Like it's not

like it's not like because now there's

this token that

Hyperlid Labs hired

10x the people or something like that.

It's not like we were waiting for that

to then go like do something for us it

was business as usual. Um

I think at least on the core protocol

side the

it had been clear long before DGE that

the important there was a very important

piece of infrastructure to build which

was having the entire network run

on a custom proof ofstake consensus

mechanism and that this was kind of the

only way to scale the throughput of the

chain without sacrificing UX for end

users and

That was a big unlock because now now

that you have a native token with real

supply distribution, you can actually

decentralize the stake in the network.

And so that felt like a very big

milestone. But yeah, other than that, it

felt like yeah, just keep building and

don't let it

distract us in any any way.

>> How many people do you did you have last

time we spoke?

I don't remember last time, but it

hasn't grown much regardless of what

that number was. Yeah.

>> How do you explain that? I mean,

obviously the the the difference between

a centralized company and a

decentralized company makes sense.

People understand it. You have these big

exchanges have thousands of employees,

right? But if I look at other protocols

that are decentralized

or working on that, they have way more

employees. How do we explain that?

>> Well, one big thing with Hyperlquid is

that the

the building itself is very

decentralized. And I don't think people

give that enough credit. I think it's a

much harder way to ultimately build an

ecosystem that's coherent and also

serves the end user.

So, as an example,

you know, if you're just thinking about

trading, you would think

you would think tokenization, whether

that's bridging in spot assets from

other chains or whether that's

tokenizing RWAs,

it's it's such a core part of the

business that if you look at a

centralized exchange, they have teams of

people focusing on different kind of

uh sources of liquidity.

liquidity.

And there'll be a team that, you know,

does the crypto stuff. There'll be a

team that probably integrates feeds from

traditional finance sources. There'll be

there'll be teams that manage the

different multi-igs and like it's it's a

very as a centralized organization, you

kind of have to have a big umbrella and

then you kind of scale horizontally. And

each of these teams probably has their

own kind of like a team within its own,

right? have yeah it has to have a lead,

it has to have um engineers, it has to

have they have to they have to have

overhead like coordinating with other

teams. Uh with Hyperlid the the protocol

doesn't actually do any of these things.

It's uh Hyperlid is more like a set of

primitives by which anyone can tokenize

anything in different ways. And when you

phrase it that way, then maybe the the

team is, you know, it's not it's not

just the people that Hyperlquid Labs

hires to work on the protocol, but

rather includes all these builders who

are who have massive responsibility

building these very important

building blocks that other builders then

come in and use and plug into. And so it

really is decentralized development of

the network. So, I think that's that's

really the answer. But there there's

that and there's this general answer of

like well

I mean I I personally just like enjoy

working with a fewer number of people

who are very very good and very

committed to building what we're doing

rather than just like a larger set of

people who can kind of each do a very

small part of the job. I think it's just

a different style of of work and um I've

I've always found that it's I I

naturally gravitate towards like smaller teams.

teams. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> How do you decide what's built

internally versus externally?

>> Yeah. The the basic answer is if it can

be built externally, it should be.

And but that's a that's a tough

principle to to really follow because on

a case by case basis it's not always

obvious whether something should be

built internally or externally. Um so I

think that I think HIPP3 for example

which is a a mechanism by which anyone

can in some sense tokenize things not on

the spot side but like it has a

derivative which I think is a much more

capital efficient way to tokenize many

types of instruments. Um, HP3 was a what

had never been attempted before and many

many I think more people thought it

would not work than people who thought

it would. And it was

I think it was a good example of really

following that principle and not

because I I I think the the complaints

are are tough to you can't really

respond to the complaints when when

someone says something like well you

know like I I trade on this other

platform and they just they just do

everything in house and it works exactly

like they say it should And um you can't

really argue with that. You have to kind

of believe in the principle that in the

long in the long run the financial

system is a lot healthier if it's built by

a robust set of people operating

coordinating through a permissionless

fair protocol rather than run as one

umbrella organization top down. And

maybe maybe you get you get there faster

if you do it in a fully centralized way,

but you build a much more resilient and

robust and ultimately globally scalable

system if you build it the hard way.

We'll get back to that HIPP3, HIPP 4 obviously

obviously

uh and obviously hyper liquid core values.

values.

I have a question about this 10 or 11

employees. It's like a lot of people

talk about that.

How do you keep them motivated

>> Uh, well, if there's nothing I can do, I

think it's a bit of we we select for

people who we genuinely enjoy working

with and we think are the best at what

they do. And

when you find I think when people are

very good at what they do and kind of

also have this high integrity bar that

we view as a non-negotiable to working

with us, it also I think naturally

selects for people who are not driven by

making a quick financial buck because if

they wanted to do that I think and

they're so smart then they they can

definitely do it in other ways. I think the

the

I like to think at least the people that

we built I'm I'm proud that we we have a

very small team at Hyperlow Labs but

we're we're high values people and we're um

you know we're kind of building it we're

we're building it because we gen we love

the the tech and the work and the and

the grind and

and yeah so I mean it it like it

happened and I think people still

are just as motivated and love the

problems we're working on and come to

work every day and are excited to do

what they do. And um I'm sure I'm sure

some people will retire. Uh you know,

we're very supportive of that. I think

people have contributed a ton to get

typog where it is today. But

>> you have some people who

>> No, no one so far. So it's it's been uh

it's been nice. It's like it's another

one of those things where I I didn't

really spend too much time thinking

about it either. It's just like, well,

we'll just we'll roll with the punches

and and see what happens. And um but

I've been, you know, pleasantly

surprised. I guess everyone's still

here. And it seems like every day during

when we chat and talk over all the

problems we're dealing with, it seems

like I I I don't notice any difference.

If anything, I noticed people are

getting more and more excited about what

we're doing and kind of feel more and

more ownership of what what they're, you

know, what problems they're working on.

And I think uh I think that that's a

great sign because that means that means

people are motivated not not by the

amount of value you can extract by the

system, but by the amount of value you

can produce. And I think that's

yeah, it's it's very it's it's a good

feeling to work with these this kind of

energy. Did you guys celebrate at all or

you just kept business as usual? I'm

asking that because I think I'm I'm not

sure if my memory is fooling me, but I

think I read the story of Matang from

Paradigm. They had this example of it

was a web two IPO and they were saying

they had all the champagne waiting there

and the entire team basically came down,

had a glass of water and then just went

back to work until like midnight, right?

So basically there was like

zuo celebration. everyone was completely

locked in like how what happened at

Hyperlquid Labs when this obviously

you're saying this is just a milestone

there's all this future thing we need to

do is there something that people are

celebrating happy about or just like

okay this is just normal like this was

part of the plan and we just focus on

what's next >> um

yeah I don't think there was a I'm

trying to remember if there was I don't

think there was a

>> means there was nothing

>> celebration Um,

yeah, I do think there's a bit of it's

it is a bit sad because we're uh if you

look back, yeah, there were there were

there were many things worth

celebrating, but at in the moment

there's always

more to do and it's never like there's

never like a good time to really just

like pause and celebrate. And so maybe

that's for like

decades down the line when when the

system is fully run on its you know

fully autonomous and uh you know like

there's complete everything is complete

it's just like a financial system that

works maybe then but um but yeah I think

when people are not really

you know maybe people also celebrate in

in their own ways right it's like it's

like we don't at least as a as a

hyperlabs as a as a company we're not

yeah we definitely don't say Hey, like

we launched this feature. Let's like

>> pop the champagne or something. It's

like definitely not something we really

Yeah. not part of the culture, I guess.

>> It's a very good question. I I don't think

think

I don't think there's like a perfect way

to do it, but it's it's a bit of just

you get to know the person. And so when

we interview people at Hyperloop Labs,

we just we do a bunch of technical

things, but we also make sure we work

with them uh for at least a full day.

And I think when when you're kind of

like working with a human being and

it's not in a super time constrained

simulated environment, you get some

sense of what the what the person is

like. Can I think you get I think there

are many soft signals you can get for

whether someone is

you know may maybe there's you know you

never know for sure but maybe there are

some signals where like you don't want

to take that risk and ultimately we we

also make sure that everyone on the team

feels really good about the hire and so

there have been times when

some people are for and some people are

opposed and usually that just means it's

a no. So there's also many independent

assessments of the same.

>> So there's a consensus. You ask everyone

and people kind of vote.

Uh, it's not really a vote because it's

it's like an sort of anyone has a

there's nothing formal here, but it's

it's kind of like if anyone has a say

like a

medium to strong, no higher, then that's

enough usually to to basically veto the

whole thing. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> If it's not a hell yeah, it's a no.

>> Yeah, something like that.

I asked you before how much you sleep,

how much does the team sleep, how much

do you let them sleep

>> or how much do they let themselves sleep?

sleep?

>> Yeah, it really depends on the person. The

>> Yeah, we we we really don't we don't

push people in the on the input side

because I I really think that that's

like a recipe for disaster. Like if

someone's really needs to sleep and

they're not sleeping, then probably

anything they do is worse than if they

that basically that the quality of the

the quality bar is is so high that even

under fully awake circumstances, you

know, someone has to really give it

their all to be able to to do good

engineering. And um

and yeah, so you know, we we we operate

with a high degree of trust. We also

generally don't I don't really believe

in the

Yeah, like everyone's just like pulling

allnighters like like that kind of like

kind of flexing that kind of culture. I

think is a bit I don't know feels a bit

missing the point. Like I personally,

you know, work many more hours than I

think most people who do flex that kind

of culture. But I think it's still very

unhealthy to say that that is the

requirement. And there are many people

on the team who do stay up very late and

work. And then there are people who, you

know, know they have like x productive

hours in a day. And as long as we as

long as they're really sort of producing

the A+ output, then it yeah, we don't care.

Last question on the team, I promise.

There was a lot of FUD the last few

months. One of the big fears of people

who are community members hold the token

was the employee vesting schedule and

the fact that uh about $300 million

worth of token would hit the market

every month for a long time. What has

happened instead so far?

Well, we don't talk publicly about this

because I genuinely believe that

financial privacy is is a right and

that's part of why we're all in crypto

and working in DeFi anyway. And in the

same way that you would not ask

some community member like, hey, like

you you have to tell us like every

everything you're doing with because you

bought this token and you hold a lot of

it. like you must tell us everything

you're doing. I just think there's like

a there's a line to draw and I think the

line is at personal privacy. I think I

think everything should be very

transparent on how the protocol works

like every dollar needs to be accounted

for. Every everything in the system

belong that belongs to a person like

needs to actually belong to that person.

I think that level of transparency is

non-negotiable in a transparent

financial system. when you don't have

that, you have you have all these things

that happen with, you know, centralized exchanges.

exchanges. >> Um,

>> Um,

but like, you know, what what any

contributor chooses to do with their tokens,

tokens,

you know, that's it's their tokens. It's

none of my business.

>> You guys have a pretty interesting way

to handle FUD and criticism at Hyperlid.

You ignore and stay quiet.

>> That's not true. I think we we address

the We used to do that. I think that my

my instincts on this PR stuff I've I've

noticed have not always been naturally

good. And I think I'm happy to defer to

people who are much more wellversed in

this stuff. But one thing we've been a

consciously trying to do is when there's

FUD and

my instinct is to say, well, this is

clearly false. Like let's the truth will

come to light. Like I' i've learned that

that is not always the right mentality.

And to be practical about it, we do we

do address address things that come up

that are false and need to be corrected.

>> Yeah. How do you personally get affected

by thud honestly? >> Um

>> Um

it depends on the category of FUD, I

guess. So there I guess there it's been

a it's been a relatively volatile

and you in the bad direction. uh I would

say like last half year in crypto and so

I think I think 10 10 was a good example

where there was a lot of damage caused

and because Hyperlid was the only

transparent venue, people

kind of like latched on to it and I

think that I took that very you know

like I felt very important like I I was

basically on a on a mission I think that

educate people on this on a topic which

is very at the same time they you know

they take it very

it's a very personal thing because

people like you know could have lost a

lot of money but

I think many competitors from all

different angles were sort of

mispainting hyperlid

mispainting its virtues and what it did

well with

with negativity in a way to like deflect

from real problems on other platforms.

And I think that to me feels like it's

like very obvious that they know what

they're doing. And to me that I, you

know, can feel a bit angry about it, but

also it's it just drives me to like, you

know, get better at, you know,

explaining clearly to users like why

Hyperlid is built the way it is and why

transparency, you know, for example,

with centralized exchanges will say,

"Hey, like look, look at this list that

some analytic site pushed like Hyperlid

had more liquidations than us." And then

we were, it feels so stupid because if

you just look at their docs, which no

one does, it's like, oh, like we only

push the first liquidation in every

second. Like no explanation why. And

well, of course, if you add those

numbers up versus Hyperlid where you can

see every order, every cancel, every

liquidation, everything that happens is

onchain. Of course, you add up you add

up two different numbers, you get you

get different, you know, you you see

like Hyperlquid's total liquidations is

more than whatever it is like 1% of

another exchange's liquidations. Um, and

so that kind of thing is just it's

literally just misinformation. And when

that's when the when some of the biggest

voices with the most followers in the

space do push that kind of narrative, I

think it's, you know, we maybe have a

smaller reach and smaller voices, but I

think we need to be very loud and um

before it kind of gets out of hand.

>> There's a lot of love from people in the

ecosystem, but there's also criticism.

And third, some pretty smart people in

crypto have openly criticized Hyperlid

for buying back the tokens every day and

said that you guys should

stop the buybacks when the price is high,

high,

buy back more when the price is low.

What's the main problem with this?

Well, the the main problem is that

Hyperlid does not have a discretionary

buyback program. And I think that is

that is something that people have run

with as a story but

it is an in analogy at best. Uh

Hyperlood is a protocol. It has it's a

rulesbased protocol. So there is in the

same way that Ethereum burns its

priority fees. You know it used to go to

the miners and now it's burned. And in

this in that same way Hyperlid burns its

protocol fees. uh you would not ask

Ethereum developers to say hey when you

know when ETH's price is high really

like like Vitalic should take all the

priority fees and he he could probably

spend it in a better way than Bernie

like and that's just like not a that's

not a question that anyone asks Ethereum

and I so I I think I think there's a fundamental

fundamental

misunderstanding of the mechanism here

and in particular the I think the reason

here is that many exchanges mostly like

relatively more more centralized

operations whether their sort of C5 D5

hybrids or like purely centralized

exchanges, they will have tokens and

they will buy their tokens back and that

is like maybe a fair piece of feedback

to them. But on Hyperlid, the the fees

are converted in an automated way to

hype and then burn. And this conversion

itself, this strategy is also not

discretionary. It is in fact baked into

the execution logic of the chain itself.

So in the same way that when you place

an onchain t-wop it is not there is no

one sitting there deciding when to split

your order when to split out the next

slice of your t-wop and send it to the

book that is like part of the execution

that's part of the state machine itself

in the same way the um the execution by

which the fees are converted to hype and

then burned is purely onchain logic. Why

is it so important that there is no

discretionary element in what Hyperlid does?

does?

>> Because Hyperlid is not a company. I

think that is another kind of

misunderstanding. So when I say we and I

say Hyperlid Labs, we're a group of

we're we're a group of people. We're

like you said, we're very small. We

build we're small because we build a

small we are responsible for building a

small but critical component of the

larger hyperlquid ecosystem. Uh

yeah, so Hyperlid is not a Hyperlquid

itself is not like a a a thing that has

an analogy in the traditional finance

world. And people like to people people

people don't like to learn new concepts.

They like to

fit something into something they

already understand. And when you try to

do that, you can there are some

parallels, but there are other things

that are just, you know, they just don't

fit. And so the the vision at least is

that the the financial system should be

on chain. I think it's it's great that

it's it is producing so much value and

sort of driving so much value to to the

native token. I think that is a positive

thing. But I but I think it's important

to remember that this is not it is not

the same way that

any company drives value to its

shareholders. Like that is like a that

is one structure. Hyperlid is a is a

neutral platform on which finance is

built. And I think in that way it is not

a perfect analogy either. But maybe

looking at it from another angle it

looks a lot more like like the internet

like what the internet did for

information Hyperlquid as an ecosystem

as a network as a protocol is trying to

do for finance.

Last time you were on, we discussed your

vision of becoming the Amazon Web

Services of liquidity.

Let's discuss what happened since that

time. Let's start with the Hyper EVM.

What is the Hyper EVM? Explain simply,

no jargon.

So, the Hyper EVM itself is

simply a way for people to deploy

contracts that

they're used to deploying on chains such

as Ethereum. they can port it over the

hyperlquid and it will work. So it is at

a very basic level it is a blank slate

on which smart contracts can execute. So

at surface level it looks a lot just like

what Ethereum all the innovation

Ethereum had is like it's basically

taking that and allowing that to live on

the hyperlquid L1 state.

Thank you to our friends at Paradex for

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What's your honest take on the success

I think the I think that's kind of a

tricky question. I think well one is I

think it's misunderstood that it has not succeeded.

succeeded.

So I'm happy to give many examples of

things that's done well but maybe maybe

I'll also say that if you drill down one

layer deeper than the basic explanation

the hypervm is actually

a way for these smart contracts for the

first time to tap into native primitives

that are built onchain. And I think that is

may maybe something which was a bit you

know hasn't been caught up. I think I

think this needs to be kind of packaged

and I think

when people evaluate the EVM they should

be evaluating it from this angle that it

which is not which doesn't have an

analogy with other

EVM chains. I think people can can

realize that the hypervm is not really

that comparable to like other like fully

self-contained EVM ecosystems.

>> So in a nutshell, people don't

understand yet this thing fully.

>> Um I think people some people understand

it but I think it hasn't really seeped

into the public like narrative about it.

So maybe one good example is like the

like USC for a long time um a criticism

was that you know circle hasn't

integrated and I think it's because it's

very hard to integrate with hyper core.

It's like a completely implement

completely um native implementation of

primitives like uh such as like ledgers

of balances and I think it's very hard

for um

for any company that has existing

infrastructure to interface with general

purpose chains to adopt something like

that. But

but the EVM is like this kind of allows

a way for native USDC to be minted,

you know, fully through fully within

Circle's like first class network, you

know, hub and spoke kind of network of

um supported

minting environments like you can burn

on any chain, mint on any other chain.

Hyper EVM is one of those chains and

I think I think that requires like a

very deep understanding of the point of

the whole thing and so I think I think

there are definitely people who

understand that and I think like you can

see that the kind of I think the thing

is like these integrations actually are

when done right are so

seamless that they

that the user doesn't realize that this

is like only made possible because of

this unique interaction between hyper

core and hypervm and so in some sense

It's harder to kind of get the narrative

out there that like a hypervm is this

like unique thing. People just say like

well I I don't hear about any of these

like these EVM success stories like like

you said like like you know like what's

going on? It's like well the the success

stories are kind of like well one is I

think most of them are yet to be built

but two is like the ones that are built

well I think feel native.

Another thing that you guys implemented

last year that might not have been

necessarily easy to understand for most

people, but we're seeing concrete result

the hyper liquid improvement proposal 3

permissionless purp. What does that

mean? explain simply or as simple as possible.

possible.

>> Yeah. Um

the the simple idea is that pers are

one of the great innovations to come out

of crypto. They actually I think they

were academic literature before crypto,

but it was it was really BitMEX that

made them that demonstrated the

practical application of per as a means

a more efficient means for price

discovery and concentrating liquidity in

one instrument that never expires. And

the idea of HIPP3 is simple.

is it's that there is nothing unique

about crypto

when it comes to per. So there should be pers

pers

on most liquid instruments for which

there are futures and options and

not saying that per

strict improvement over anything but

that there should be per because people

should have the users should have the

option to use pers and

I still think today that if per widely

adopted in traditional finance finance

across many asset classes. I think a

large percentage of the flow would

migrate to perps because pers are the

allow those users to best express their

views on the views that they want to

express and hip 3 is basically

just a simply it's just like letting

anyone deploy per hyperlquid but behind

that sentence there is a lot of work

because again like this is this has kind

of never been built so uh before hip3 so

it was I think there were any open

questions like can it can a protocol really

really

really sort of seed over Oracle such

important things as Oracle updates in

real time to um a permissionless

deployer system and there are just many

many things to think about there deeply

intertwining this like permissionless

nature with how purpose and margining

and things work you you have all of a

sudden have all these different edge

cases and thinking through all those and

just building something relatively robust

robust

around that and also just you know

having the builders do the hard work of

actually integrating it and putting in

the time and the effort to learn

something completely new for the first

time and so commit to building on it. I

think that just all all of that takes

time. And so, like you said, it was it

was probably

I think most people probably thought it

just like wouldn't work. And honestly,

we couldn't say for sure that it was

going to be a success either, but it

felt like it felt like, you know, it

should work this way. And Hyperlquid is

an in unique place where there's such a

strong concentration of talent

building and users who are bought into

the ecosystem who want to support and

bootstrap new network effects. So it

felt like if it was going to succeed

like it it should succeed on Hyperlid.

>> Can you explain the difference between

what you guys are doing and what

everyone else is doing?

I don't know about everyone else, but

every every sort of non-crypto effort at

Pers that I've seen is

an exchange that

runs a per operation

basically saying, well, now we'll get

feeds in these other assets and we'll

just offer them in the same way that we

offer crypto per. So I think you see

that across many centralized exchanges

and you see that across uh various

decentralized exchanges as well.

>> Why does it matter so much what you guys

are doing versus what these other

players are doing? Why should people care?

care?

Well, users and users should not care

about how it works necessarily.

But I think if you really want to move

the financial system on chain

then you need you need deployers who are

domain experts at what they do

like if you look at traditional finance

there are many different countries right

and each country has its own setup for

exchanges and there are like many

different idiosyncrasies and then you

drill down further there are different

asset classes right these asset classes

are traded on different exchanges

different rules

and then there are different interfaces

to these different asset classes within

all the different countries and you just

keep subdividing and you find there's

actually a lot of specialization in

finance and I do think some of that is

some of that probably is due to the

inherent inefficiencies in the legacy

financial system and I do think crypto

solves some of that but I also think a

lot of it is just because finance is is

just too big for one team to build and

and you can structure it as I think like

probably many of many of The biggest

financial companies

will adopt this kind of still

centralized sort of one place for all of

finance unifying the user's financial

life. But they'll they will try to

accomplish that through a more top- down

approach where whether through

acquisitions or partnerships or

um things like that or just literally

building something in house. they will

try to they will try to house all of

finance in that way. But I think that's

a very brittle setup. And I think um

when things blow up, they often they

blow up because there's

too much power in the hands of

one entity. And um it's tough because

that model does just move faster and it

inherently has less fragmentation and

maybe initially offers a better user

experience. But I think users should

ultimately ultimately users will use the

financial system that gives them

sovereignty over their own finances and

is access globally accessible and has

liquidity or whatever other features

they they need. And I I guess I just I

strongly believe that to build such a

system that can really serve all the

users globally plugged into one system

that system needs to be

decentralized on many axes. One of which

is, you know, ownership, which is which

is a a big principle of Hyperlid, but

also um decentralized in terms of uh who

is building the core primitives that

>> In one sentence, why is it so important

to bring all of finance on chain?

>> It's important because Oh, one sentence.

Um it's important because if you don't

then the financial system is going to

fall behind what

like the pace of technological development.

development.

It's not it's not going to it's not

going to keep up basically like the the

world is changing too quickly. I think

the legacy financial system is not going

to is not going to be adequate to to

serve users needs in a rapidly

developing world.

It's not really the hyperlquid approach.

I think hyperlquid is really just

espousing the values that DeFi has

always had and we are just as a

community trying to execute on them in a

way that

we think has a greater chance of

actually succeeding and achieving mass

adoption. And so these values

are that the financial system should not

be controlled by corporations.

corporations.

They should be a neutral layer like the

internet. Um you mentioned the example

of AWS. I think that's like another

example where AWS is like you know it is

controlled by a corporation but in some

sense it's like very neutral, right?

Like nobody treats nobody says hey like

why are you building on AWS? That's such

a that's such an opinionated choice,

right? It's like it is just

infrastructure. And so um the financial

system should have those properties

because it should not be it should not

be a

you should not have to jump through

hoops and be citizens of specific

wellto-do countries just to access the

financial system. And the financial

system should be programmable in a in a

very deep sense. Like not not in a not

like a system that's not programmable

with programmable bells and whistles

tacked onto it, which is more of the

fintech approach, but it should be built

programmably from the ground up. Like

the the primitives should be code that

you know smart contracts, humans, agents

can all interact with.

If the approach is better, the numbers

should be better.

Can you give us some key numbers that

show that Hyperlid is doing perpetual

markets the right way?

So, I I'm still going to say that it is

early. I think the

I think that the future is never certain and

and

I think the numbers today don't

necessarily reflect like whether

long-term it is going to be successful

or not. That being said, I do think the

numbers justify

somewhat already the the power of a

permissionless protocol that allows

deployers to really express creatively

express their

abilities and sort of execute on their

visions. So um I mean one one key

example that's very topical is that

silver along with other metals has been

um has really taken

has really taken the sort of retail and

um general like mind share among trading

folks. Um I think it's a mix of

institutional retail I guess and

something like doing 10 sigma moves many

days in a row. It's uh it's pretty wild

and I think the HIPP3 markets on

Hyperlid um predominantly uh Trade XYZ

which was the first um deployer

um have I believe reached approximately

2% of global price discover like global

volume on silver which is a small number

but if you think about it in the grand

scheme of things It's

not that small of a number and no just

just given the fact that

these HIPP3 markets really launched

a few months ago. Uh I think it's I

think it's quite astonishing and I mean

think of credit where credit's due like

it's this is nothing to do with the core

team like we are we're focused on

building the primitives right like a lot

of work goes in HIPP3 but how that

primitive how that liquidity

infrastructure is used is entirely up to

the builders who choose to use it and so

um I think it really is a testament to

the quality of builders who are like

choose who are choosing Hyperlid because today

today

because it's the only platform that lets

them accomplish what they're setting out

to build.

>> Tell me a bit more about what you said

before. You said the numbers are

starting to be interesting, but it's

still early and therefore

things might not go into that direction.

What makes you say that?

Uh, I think it's just very dangerous to

assume that because you have

a belief about something that and

there's like some evidence that it's

correct that that it's

unassalable. I think the I think the

world just changes too quickly. And I

think it's important to have unassalable principles

principles

like the financial system should be

accessible to everyone in the world and

it you know finance and information

should be sort of on the same level of

sort of yeah should should be treated

similarly in these open systems.

these principles I don't think I don't

think change but

I think anything concrete it's very

dangerous to fixate on um

and I think that's I think a big a big

thinking a big motivation behind what

what core primitives are

built into the blockchain I think I

think a lot of what goes into that is a

bunch of builders and users from

saying that, hey, like this this thing I

want to do this thing and like it

doesn't really work today. And when a

and you notice like some pattern between

what they're saying, there's like some

intersection and like that intersection

is like

is like some nugget of like

functionality that doesn't exist, then I think

think

I think

you can have a lot more confidence that

this kind of primitive is the right

thing to build to build into the

into into a native implementation. And

when you when you're very very selective

about what the protocol does versus like

what is just done on the EVM general

purpose um I think I think you get a

much more elegant system that is

resilient to what specific businesses

businesses

you know like you basically create

something where builders can adapt to

what markets actually are doing without

being too you know yeah basically like

like moving the opinionated decisions um

out of the primitives themselves. So I

think this HIPP all the HIPP3s all the

HIPPs including HP3 have this kind of backstory.

backstory.

We talked about spot training briefly before

before

and that it was not built by the core team.

team.

It was built by a team called unit. What

has the uni team demonstrated in 2025?

There was actually there were a few very

important launches in 2025 where

hyperlid was the leading source of spot

price discovery. And I think this was

the first time that this happened on a

decentralized venue. So I think the I

think XPL was one of them. Um,

Um,

I think that the basically the idea behind

behind

in some sense spot trading is the

closest to Satoshi's original

peer-to-peer vision because really when

you're trading spot, you are you are essentially transferring funds on a

essentially transferring funds on a ledger, right? Like someone is

ledger, right? Like someone is transferring

transferring the quote asset to another person and

the quote asset to another person and that same person is transferring the

that same person is transferring the base asset, the first person. And so the

base asset, the first person. And so the protocol, the order book, an on-train

protocol, the order book, an on-train order book, all of that is just a

order book, all of that is just a mechanism

mechanism to intermediate these transfers. And so

to intermediate these transfers. And so if you were to ask Satoshi, how should

if you were to ask Satoshi, how should Bitcoin be traded? I'm very confident

Bitcoin be traded? I'm very confident that

that they would have said that that it should

they would have said that that it should be done in a fully onchain way and that

be done in a fully onchain way and that maybe Bitcoin is not necessarily the

maybe Bitcoin is not necessarily the right network to do it. But uh but it

right network to do it. But uh but it should be done peer-to-peer and you know

should be done peer-to-peer and you know Hyperlquid does a lot of stuff and this

Hyperlquid does a lot of stuff and this is like very core to the DNA. But I

is like very core to the DNA. But I think with spot trading you can really

think with spot trading you can really see that when you when all the pieces

see that when you when all the pieces really are there that users do prefer to

really are there that users do prefer to do to transact in a way that is coherent

do to transact in a way that is coherent with crypto itself. Like they are they

with crypto itself. Like they are they are trading spot crypto usually because

are trading spot crypto usually because they are believers in the vision of

they are believers in the vision of crypto and DeFi. and to be able to

crypto and DeFi. and to be able to finally after so many years transact in

finally after so many years transact in a way without sacrificing UX that is

a way without sacrificing UX that is still consistent with the technological

still consistent with the technological underpinnings of the asset you're

underpinnings of the asset you're holding itself um feels a bit like going

holding itself um feels a bit like going full circle and I think it's uh I think

full circle and I think it's uh I think it's it's very cool to see

there's some um videos circulating on X about baby Jeff or younger Jeff in 2018

about baby Jeff or younger Jeff in 2018 18

18 launching prediction markets at the same

launching prediction markets at the same time as Kali where it didn't work out.

time as Kali where it didn't work out. Why?

Why? There are many reasons. The the best

There are many reasons. The the best answer is probably just that it like

answer is probably just that it like we the people building it were not

we the people building it were not we weren't ready and it was the idea was

we weren't ready and it was the idea was really cool. I think we I think we had

really cool. I think we I think we had gotten many things right on the

gotten many things right on the infrastructure side

infrastructure side offchain matching at that time was the

offchain matching at that time was the right way to go onchain settlement

right way to go onchain settlement but there's a lot more that goes into

but there's a lot more that goes into building something successful than

building something successful than simply having the right ideas and the

simply having the right ideas and the ideas are actually a very very small

ideas are actually a very very small part of it so I think that it was not

part of it so I think that it was not obvious to me at least at that time that

obvious to me at least at that time that anyone actually wanted to use onchain

anyone actually wanted to use onchain products uh towards the end of you know

products uh towards the end of you know when we when the idea first started it

when we when the idea first started it was everyone was super happy and prices

was everyone was super happy and prices were up and then towards the end of that

were up and then towards the end of that year prices were way down and I think

year prices were way down and I think we've seen this many times time and time

we've seen this many times time and time again in crypto but if if it's your

again in crypto but if if it's your first time seeing it you and you talk to

first time seeing it you and you talk to users and you can't literally no one

users and you can't literally no one will try your product I think I think it

will try your product I think I think it can be very disheartening and so um yeah

can be very disheartening and so um yeah I think but still like learned a lot

I think but still like learned a lot learned a lot about what it takes to

learned a lot about what it takes to build and I think

build and I think Yeah, in some sense the idea kind of

Yeah, in some sense the idea kind of lives on, right? And I'm really glad to

lives on, right? And I'm really glad to see all these other companies who who

see all these other companies who who started, like you said, started around

started, like you said, started around the same time. I think you know, they

the same time. I think you know, they they they did have it have what it takes

they they did have it have what it takes and and are continuing to they're

and and are continuing to they're finally starting to see the the fruits

finally starting to see the the fruits of of their years of hard work and uh

of of their years of hard work and uh sort of general mass adoption. I think

sort of general mass adoption. I think that's like super cool to see. I'm

that's like super cool to see. I'm really happy for all of them.

really happy for all of them. Eight years later, you're back with

Eight years later, you're back with prediction markets or more precisely

prediction markets or more precisely outcome markets. What's the difference?

outcome markets. What's the difference? Yeah. So, this goes back to the point

Yeah. So, this goes back to the point earlier where

earlier where I think primitives on Hyperlid

I think primitives on Hyperlid are meant to be as

are meant to be as small and self-contained as possible to

small and self-contained as possible to be simple and performant, but also as

be simple and performant, but also as broadly useful as possible. And so the

broadly useful as possible. And so the the thinking behind so basically outcome

the thinking behind so basically outcome markets are the are what I think will

markets are the are what I think will be a core way that people express

be a core way that people express nonlinear beliefs on hyperlquid. So

nonlinear beliefs on hyperlquid. So >> yeah, so spot and pers are very

>> yeah, so spot and pers are very different, right? Spot is the

different, right? Spot is the fundamental asset that you hold and when

fundamental asset that you hold and when you trade it, you are transferring

you trade it, you are transferring things on the ledger. Like that is a

things on the ledger. Like that is a primitive that obviously should exist on

primitive that obviously should exist on any financial system. No controversy

any financial system. No controversy about that. Per more controversy, but

about that. Per more controversy, but people are starting to realize that, you

people are starting to realize that, you know, this is like a a an important

know, this is like a a an important enough of an idea that really kind of

enough of an idea that really kind of ought to exist generally for price

ought to exist generally for price discovery. And so we were I think HIPP3

discovery. And so we were I think HIPP3 was like an early crystallization of

was like an early crystallization of that idea and a lot of effort there. Um

that idea and a lot of effort there. Um but if you look at spot and persp while

but if you look at spot and persp while they're very different on many many

they're very different on many many aspects right they you know per allow

aspects right they you know per allow leverage more capital efficiency spot

leverage more capital efficiency spot represents tokenization of an actual

represents tokenization of an actual asset um spot per similar in the sense

asset um spot per similar in the sense that you can only express linear beliefs

that you can only express linear beliefs like if you hold pers no matter whether

like if you hold pers no matter whether you're at 1x or 100x leverage you're

you're at 1x or 100x leverage you're still like when the price moves one unit

still like when the price moves one unit you make n units of profit or loss and

you make n units of profit or loss and um for a wide variety of use cases that

um for a wide variety of use cases that is what the user wants and often people

is what the user wants and often people who want leverage to trade per actually

who want leverage to trade per actually achieve the leverage because per is not

achieve the leverage because per is not available through things like options

available through things like options which uh are not actually doing what

which uh are not actually doing what they want to do. Um but on the flip side

they want to do. Um but on the flip side I think there are people who actually do

I think there are people who actually do want convexity like nonlinear outcomes

want convexity like nonlinear outcomes for example they want um they want

for example they want um they want something that is either worth one or

something that is either worth one or zero dollars depending on some something

zero dollars depending on some something that happens or they want something that

that happens or they want something that is bounded. So like you might hold some

is bounded. So like you might hold some Bitcoin and you might say I'm generally

Bitcoin and you might say I'm generally pretty happy holding this but if it

pretty happy holding this but if it drops below some price then I would like

drops below some price then I would like to be protected to the downside. These

to be protected to the downside. These are nonlinear beliefs and you cannot

are nonlinear beliefs and you cannot express these beliefs through any

express these beliefs through any combination of spot and per. And so

combination of spot and per. And so that's this is where outcome markets

that's this is where outcome markets come in. And once you have a nonlinear

come in. And once you have a nonlinear payout structure that outcomes give you

payout structure that outcomes give you um and just just like in case people

um and just just like in case people haven't deduced already, the outcome

haven't deduced already, the outcome markets are basically um they're

markets are basically um they're basically fully collateralized

basically fully collateralized uh contracts that where both sides put

uh contracts that where both sides put up some capital and then the the thing

up some capital and then the the thing kind of settles somewhere in between. So

kind of settles somewhere in between. So there's like some exchange of um

there's like some exchange of um collateral at settlement. uh and it

collateral at settlement. uh and it could be binary and it could be

could be binary and it could be continuous and so it

continuous and so it >> so for example options prediction

>> so for example options prediction markets

markets >> prediction markets yes

>> prediction markets yes >> do you have another few examples

>> do you have another few examples >> uh

>> uh >> that are very concrete that people can

>> that are very concrete that people can think of even even though it's not

think of even even though it's not completely extensive obviously

completely extensive obviously >> yeah basically anything where you don't

>> yeah basically anything where you don't want there to be liquidation

want there to be liquidation risk

risk >> um so

>> um so people who want to

people want to express an opinion where they roughly put up some capital and

they roughly put up some capital and check back later and they like kind of

check back later and they like kind of have more or less and uh yeah there's no

have more or less and uh yeah there's no there's no complicated thing about like

there's no complicated thing about like oh like depending on how the price moved

oh like depending on how the price moved I might have been liquidated or or like

I might have been liquidated or or like uh

uh something something more complicated

something something more complicated like like also like funding is a

like like also like funding is a complicated mechanism with purps are

complicated mechanism with purps are just like a relatively advanced feature

just like a relatively advanced feature that I think will continue to drive a

that I think will continue to drive a lot of price discovery But like you

lot of price discovery But like you said, these these um more yeah these

said, these these um more yeah these basically different applications. I

basically different applications. I think options and prediction markets are

think options and prediction markets are kind of the obvious ones that come to my

kind of the obvious ones that come to my mind. I think they're also like

mind. I think they're also like derivatives of these ideas that are very

derivatives of these ideas that are very popular these days. Like um can we have

popular these days. Like um can we have markets that

markets that aggregate opinions in a way where

aggregate opinions in a way where there's no objective outcome but rather

there's no objective outcome but rather the opinions are aggregated towards some

the opinions are aggregated towards some goal like maybe like bubbling up the

goal like maybe like bubbling up the important issues, right? like can we use

important issues, right? like can we use markets to kind of solve these ideas? Um

markets to kind of solve these ideas? Um I think these all fit naturally into um

I think these all fit naturally into um yeah this outcome framework

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You often talk about housing all of finance. What does that mean?

It basically means that the financial system should

system should not be fragmented.

not be fragmented. That's the all it should you should not

That's the all it should you should not have to plug into a bank account and

have to plug into a bank account and then like you know but if you want to if

then like you know but if you want to if you want to buy something you need to

you want to buy something you need to like transfer the funds to this other

like transfer the funds to this other account where you then or maybe end

account where you then or maybe end other accounts depending on what you

other accounts depending on what you want to buy. I think like composibility

want to buy. I think like composibility like having a user's financial life in

like having a user's financial life in one place uh is a huge unlock and then

one place uh is a huge unlock and then but that is not unique to crypto. Um the

but that is not unique to crypto. Um the the crypto part of housing all the

the crypto part of housing all the finance is that the the platform on

finance is that the the platform on which people do this should also not be

which people do this should also not be of controlled by a like a central

of controlled by a like a central corporation or

corporation or something of that sort. I guess should

something of that sort. I guess should be there should be many teams building

be there should be many teams building and when someone builds something that

and when someone builds something that should automatically plug in compose

should automatically plug in compose with like other teams building other

with like other teams building other things and like this kind of these kind

things and like this kind of these kind of network effects um really make it a

of network effects um really make it a financial system right so there kind

financial system right so there kind there's like always this trade-off

there's like always this trade-off between fragmentation and

between fragmentation and sort of efficiency um and

sort of efficiency um and so I guess like fragmentation

so I guess like fragmentation fragmentation but compos composability

fragmentation but compos composability is like one end of the spectrum and then

is like one end of the spectrum and then like inefficient but like uh sort of

like inefficient but like uh sort of more limited system that's like

more limited system that's like centrally operated is on the other end

centrally operated is on the other end of the spectrum and there's kind of like

of the spectrum and there's kind of like always this there it feels like there's

always this there it feels like there's this like constant tension but I think

this like constant tension but I think done right you can kind of get the pros

done right you can kind of get the pros of both sides um and that's yeah that

of both sides um and that's yeah that kind of that drives a lot of the design

kind of that drives a lot of the design philosophy behind what we do

philosophy behind what we do >> you told me

>> you told me that hyperlquid is not a crypto company.

that hyperlquid is not a crypto company. It's a finance company using crypto

It's a finance company using crypto rails. I mean company might not be the

rails. I mean company might not be the right word, right?

right word, right? Can you explain?

Can you explain? Well, I think it is a def I think we

Well, I think it is a def I think we genuinely believe in genuinely believe

genuinely believe in genuinely believe in DeFi's values.

in DeFi's values. >> Um so in that sense I think it is a we

>> Um so in that sense I think it is a we it is like crypto defi are in our DNA.

it is like crypto defi are in our DNA. Um,

Um, but I don't think we identify with

but I don't think we identify with being, for example, like a building a

being, for example, like a building a crypto the best crypto exchange or

crypto the best crypto exchange or something like that. Um, that's

something like that. Um, that's yeah, that's just not really the vision.

yeah, that's just not really the vision. I think the

I think the I think finance is finance and crypto

I think finance is finance and crypto has the potential to upgrade the rails

has the potential to upgrade the rails on which people conduct their financial

on which people conduct their financial lives. And so that is the goal to which

lives. And so that is the goal to which we are building. And so like if

we are building. And so like if Hyperlquid as an ecosystem is to succeed

Hyperlquid as an ecosystem is to succeed then some people might say hey this is

then some people might say hey this is great like crypto was vindicated and

great like crypto was vindicated and that's I think that that's a fine

that's I think that that's a fine interpretation but then other people

interpretation but then other people will say well there's this new thing

will say well there's this new thing that happened and they like use some

that happened and they like use some ideas uh but ultimately it's like it's

ideas uh but ultimately it's like it's like a thing of its own and I think

like a thing of its own and I think that's also an okay interpretation.

that's also an okay interpretation. Hyper liquid has uh 11 core team members

Hyper liquid has uh 11 core team members but also has an ecosystem of some of the

but also has an ecosystem of some of the smartest people and builders out there.

smartest people and builders out there. Let's talk about a few of them.

Let's talk about a few of them. Hyper liquid has a stable coin called

Hyper liquid has a stable coin called USDH. Why?

USDH. Why? Yeah, basically the

Yeah, basically the about half a year or a year ago there

about half a year or a year ago there was a big stable coin

was a big stable coin interest uh broadly across um multiple

interest uh broadly across um multiple blockchains. The Genius Act passed. Uh

blockchains. The Genius Act passed. Uh there was general great excitement about

there was general great excitement about stable coins being the way that the

stable coins being the way that the institutions

institutions get first introduced to DeFi rails and

get first introduced to DeFi rails and Hyperlquid has a protocolized

Hyperlquid has a protocolized concept called an alliance stable coin.

concept called an alliance stable coin. And this came after much back and forth

And this came after much back and forth with many of the different part uh

with many of the different part uh ecosystem participants. And ultimately

ecosystem participants. And ultimately the protocol settled on this way by

the protocol settled on this way by which yield can flow from the

which yield can flow from the treasuries to a mixture of the protocol

treasuries to a mixture of the protocol and the deployer of the stable coin. And

and the deployer of the stable coin. And USC is run by native markets. their uh

USC is run by native markets. their uh their team of you know a mix of of

their team of you know a mix of of wellestablished

wellestablished know institutional uh founders and as

know institutional uh founders and as well as some very strong ecosystem uh

well as some very strong ecosystem uh community members and so I think they're

community members and so I think they're they're a really good group of people

they're a really good group of people and um excited to see them build out the

and um excited to see them build out the the premier aligned stable coin uh on

the premier aligned stable coin uh on the on Hyperlid and these stable coins

the on Hyperlid and these stable coins basically um they're very symbiotic

basically um they're very symbiotic relationship with the builders and apps

relationship with the builders and apps that end users that use the stable coin.

that end users that use the stable coin. For example, the the protocol earns

For example, the the protocol earns yield and in that way the the holders of

yield and in that way the the holders of hype are aligned with the stable coin

hype are aligned with the stable coin and then the traders who use the stable

and then the traders who use the stable coin also pay lower fees and this is all

coin also pay lower fees and this is all encoded at the protocol level. So

encoded at the protocol level. So there's no you know it's a purely

there's no you know it's a purely objective system. Um but we think it's a

objective system. Um but we think it's a it's a great synergy and it's going to

it's a great synergy and it's going to unlock a entirely new set of use cases

unlock a entirely new set of use cases that way.

that way. What is Kinetic and why does it matter

What is Kinetic and why does it matter for the hyperlquid ecosystem?

for the hyperlquid ecosystem? >> Yeah, Kinetic is the biggest liquid

>> Yeah, Kinetic is the biggest liquid staking token. Um, and they they

staking token. Um, and they they highlight one of the key parts of the

highlight one of the key parts of the Hyper EVM vision which is that there are

Hyper EVM vision which is that there are these mechanisms. Uh we talked earlier

these mechanisms. Uh we talked earlier about how hypervm sort of uh has windows

about how hypervm sort of uh has windows into hyper core and can use it as tools

into hyper core and can use it as tools for the smart contracts and this allows

for the smart contracts and this allows liquid liquid staking to be built uh in

liquid liquid staking to be built uh in a completely onchain way. So usually

a completely onchain way. So usually staking is built at a layer deeper than

staking is built at a layer deeper than the application layer. So the premier

the application layer. So the premier liquid staking token um like staked ETH

liquid staking token um like staked ETH on Ethereum is

on Ethereum is is tokenized but there's an offchain

is tokenized but there's an offchain component to the tokenization on

component to the tokenization on Hyperlid the staking itself

Hyperlid the staking itself these actions and sort of um the read

these actions and sort of um the read and the write operations required for

and the write operations required for staking can be conducted via

staking can be conducted via pre-ompiles and the core writer

pre-ompiles and the core writer primitives that allow a smart contract

primitives that allow a smart contract contract to tokenize a

contract to tokenize a pool of staked hype in the same way that

pool of staked hype in the same way that vaults are tokenized on the EVM on EVMs

vaults are tokenized on the EVM on EVMs usually um but also do the staking and

usually um but also do the staking and unstaking and um accounting uh entirely

unstaking and um accounting uh entirely closed loop like in that system and so

closed loop like in that system and so it's very cool because it's the first

it's very cool because it's the first fully onchain u mechanism by which

fully onchain u mechanism by which liquid staking tokens can be created and

liquid staking tokens can be created and so eliminates all sort of bridging and

so eliminates all sort of bridging and trust risk that way

trust risk that way what hyper Hyperland is building

what hyper Hyperland is building important for Hyperlquid.

important for Hyperlquid. >> Yes. So, Hyperland is the is the premier

>> Yes. So, Hyperland is the is the premier borrow lending protocol on the EVM. They

borrow lending protocol on the EVM. They they've had a they've had a quite a

they've had a they've had a quite a spike in in TVL since launch. I think

spike in in TVL since launch. I think it's a function of just, you know,

it's a function of just, you know, constant iteration and and hard work on

constant iteration and and hard work on their part. And currently, it is fully

their part. And currently, it is fully on the EVM. So, the, you know, suppliers

on the EVM. So, the, you know, suppliers supply collateral and borrowers come and

supply collateral and borrowers come and borrow. And there's a there's basically

borrow. And there's a there's basically supply and demand marketplace for that

supply and demand marketplace for that determines the the uh rate basically

determines the the uh rate basically that the that the borrowers pay the

that the that the borrowers pay the suppliers and this is a common idea but

suppliers and this is a common idea but I think it will become very important

I think it will become very important when uh portfolio margin on hypercore um

when uh portfolio margin on hypercore um leaves the pre-off stage because I guess

leaves the pre-off stage because I guess we never talked about portfolio margin

we never talked about portfolio margin but the the basic idea there is that um

but the the basic idea there is that um traders want to be able to use any asset

traders want to be able to use any asset that they own um or certainly any of

that they own um or certainly any of their very liquid assets that they own

their very liquid assets that they own such as bitcoin as collateral and they

such as bitcoin as collateral and they want to be able to trade anything with

want to be able to trade anything with that not just a specific market. So

that not just a specific market. So basically reduce fragmentation and also

basically reduce fragmentation and also increase the set of assets which help

increase the set of assets which help onboard to purpose trading or other

onboard to purpose trading or other types of spot trading. And so for

types of spot trading. And so for portfolio margin to work in a defi

portfolio margin to work in a defi setting,

setting, the only safe way to really build it and

the only safe way to really build it and the kind of reason that it hasn't been

the kind of reason that it hasn't been built at scale with great success in in

built at scale with great success in in a DeFi setting is that it requires a

a DeFi setting is that it requires a robust borrow lend um backdrop to it

robust borrow lend um backdrop to it because on a centralized venue when when

because on a centralized venue when when an exchange allows a user to use

an exchange allows a user to use portfolio margin, they have the power to

portfolio margin, they have the power to mint balances out of nothing. So, a user

mint balances out of nothing. So, a user can put Bitcoin up and the exchange can

can put Bitcoin up and the exchange can just extend them um a free line of

just extend them um a free line of credit to trade um stable coin

credit to trade um stable coin denominated per example. And this is a

denominated per example. And this is a it it's usually okay because the

it it's usually okay because the exchange just knows that because there's

exchange just knows that because there's collateral sitting there, the the fake

collateral sitting there, the the fake balance can ultimately be covered by the

balance can ultimately be covered by the collateral. But in the black swan

collateral. But in the black swan events, I think it's uh this is what

events, I think it's uh this is what leads to bad debt on the platform. And I

leads to bad debt on the platform. And I think it's it's to give the exchanges

think it's it's to give the exchanges credit like they it's an extremely

credit like they it's an extremely complicated problem and they've managed

complicated problem and they've managed it generally pretty well. Um I think

it generally pretty well. Um I think these exchanges are are are serious

these exchanges are are are serious businesses and they they take they take

businesses and they they take they take these things seriously and the portfolio

these things seriously and the portfolio margin is a very important feature they

margin is a very important feature they offer the users. But this solution is

offer the users. But this solution is simply not acceptable for a DeFi

simply not acceptable for a DeFi platform like a a user because if a D5

platform like a a user because if a D5 platform were to follow this kind of

platform were to follow this kind of model then the protocol is basically

model then the protocol is basically taking risk like anyone who has any

taking risk like anyone who has any funds on the protocol sort of has

funds on the protocol sort of has solveny risk uh for portfolio margin uh

solveny risk uh for portfolio margin uh collateral gone bad and that undermines

collateral gone bad and that undermines the core principles of the system which

the core principles of the system which is that every dollar is accounted for or

is that every dollar is accounted for or in some sense if you don't you don't

in some sense if you don't you don't want to you don't want to say if there's

want to you don't want to say if there's a dollar on hyperlquid that dollar

a dollar on hyperlquid that dollar actually you know has all these other

actually you know has all these other like asterisks and like um that's just

like asterisks and like um that's just not not a not a trade-off to be made in

not not a not a trade-off to be made in DeFi and so when there's portfolio

DeFi and so when there's portfolio margin hyperlquid is a novel system

margin hyperlquid is a novel system where the lending markets fully back the

where the lending markets fully back the borrow the borrowing and lending

borrow the borrowing and lending mechanisms of a lending market fully

mechanisms of a lending market fully back the portfolio margin operations and

back the portfolio margin operations and this is similar to HP3. This is a much

this is similar to HP3. This is a much more challenging way to build the same

more challenging way to build the same feature that users may not even realize

feature that users may not even realize is happening behind the scenes, but

is happening behind the scenes, but ultimately is a more robust and scalable

ultimately is a more robust and scalable way to to um responsibly have a protocol

way to to um responsibly have a protocol allow this kind of alternative

allow this kind of alternative collateral. And the any spike in demand

collateral. And the any spike in demand is not met with increased platform risk

is not met with increased platform risk but rather met with a brief increase in

but rather met with a brief increase in uh borrow rates which is then met with

uh borrow rates which is then met with you know just met with efficient markets

you know just met with efficient markets uh suppliers coming in and capturing

uh suppliers coming in and capturing that and basically competing the spread

that and basically competing the spread back complete complete competing the

back complete complete competing the yield rates back down to the market

yield rates back down to the market rates. And so I see hyperlend and other

rates. And so I see hyperlend and other lending protocols plugging into this in

lending protocols plugging into this in a very uh very symbiotic way. So the

a very uh very symbiotic way. So the basically portfolio margin hyper core

basically portfolio margin hyper core will drive demand out to the EVM and the

will drive demand out to the EVM and the EVM will be the hyperVm will be the

EVM will be the hyperVm will be the tokenization mechanism by which borrow

tokenization mechanism by which borrow lend is um achieves uh distribution

lend is um achieves uh distribution outside of hypercore.

outside of hypercore. I saw you say on a panel last year,

I saw you say on a panel last year, we have no competition.

we have no competition. I also lost. I think many people did.

I also lost. I think many people did. Are you in denial or is there something

Are you in denial or is there something that most people still don't understand

that most people still don't understand about hyperlquid?

about hyperlquid? >> Uh well, I think the qu the question was

>> Uh well, I think the qu the question was probably like who is exactly competing

probably like who is exactly competing with you or something like that. I think

with you or something like that. I think my point was not that I think there are

my point was not that I think there are many competitors in some sense because

many competitors in some sense because hyperlquid is is something unique at the

hyperlquid is is something unique at the intersection of many things. There are

intersection of many things. There are just so many players in finance and I

just so many players in finance and I think many people many people view

think many people many people view hyperode as competitors where I don't

hyperode as competitors where I don't think it's actually correct to do so

think it's actually correct to do so like I think there's actually a lot of

like I think there's actually a lot of synergy between many different protocols

synergy between many different protocols and I think slowly you see this

and I think slowly you see this happening where different protocols add

happening where different protocols add hyper as a chain and like just the other

hyper as a chain and like just the other day I hear from different builders

day I hear from different builders saying hey like we launched this thing

saying hey like we launched this thing like we're multi-chain like but we

like we're multi-chain like but we launched uh this structure product and

launched uh this structure product and and hype on hype and like we're really

and hype on hype and like we're really shocked because this is like the number

shocked because this is like the number one the number one product that uh we've

one the number one product that uh we've launched in the past year or something

launched in the past year or something like that. So like these stories I think

like that. So like these stories I think will continue to unfold and so I really

will continue to unfold and so I really think it is there's a general sense of

think it is there's a general sense of like competition when in fact there

like competition when in fact there should be cooperation and competition.

should be cooperation and competition. Um but it's not delusional. I also I

Um but it's not delusional. I also I also do just think that Hyperlid is

also do just think that Hyperlid is building something that no one else is

building something that no one else is really precisely trying to build. And

really precisely trying to build. And I think part of that is just because

I think part of that is just because what Hypoid is building is largely a

what Hypoid is building is largely a function of where the ecosystem is and

function of where the ecosystem is and how it's gotten to this point today.

how it's gotten to this point today. It's not it hasn't all been fun in

It's not it hasn't all been fun in games, right? You know, I've been

games, right? You know, I've been working on this for more than three

working on this for more than three years. I think many of the community

years. I think many of the community members have been here for just as long

members have been here for just as long from day one. And there's been there

from day one. And there's been there have been many many like ups and downs.

have been many many like ups and downs. And I think the trajectory of any

And I think the trajectory of any ecosystem is it's it's ultimately path

ecosystem is it's it's ultimately path dependent. And I think the fact that

dependent. And I think the fact that Hyperloop got here with a no insider

Hyperloop got here with a no insider principle from from day one and this

principle from from day one and this general principle of fairness and

general principle of fairness and welcoming for builders and users. And I

welcoming for builders and users. And I think just like no matter how much it

think just like no matter how much it grows, I hope we hold on to that because

grows, I hope we hold on to that because I think that is ultimately what drives

I think that is ultimately what drives hyper liquid to build something that is

hyper liquid to build something that is not uh not really being attempted by

not uh not really being attempted by anyone else. Right. I don't see I don't

anyone else. Right. I don't see I don't see when people launch per like you said

see when people launch per like you said like no no no one says like hey like we

like no no no one says like hey like we trust the community we trust builders to

trust the community we trust builders to come and and execute just as well and

come and and execute just as well and there will there'll be fragmentation

there will there'll be fragmentation there will be competition between them

there will be competition between them but ultimately what's going to come out

but ultimately what's going to come out of that is a more robust system uh I

of that is a more robust system uh I think that story's unfolded many many

think that story's unfolded many many times hyperl and I think will continue

times hyperl and I think will continue unfolding and each time there will be a

unfolding and each time there will be a doubt about whether the community can

doubt about whether the community can come together and build something better

come together and build something better than a centralized alternative and uh

than a centralized alternative and uh but we're just going to keep fighting

but we're just going to keep fighting that fight and I think that is the

that fight and I think that is the unique thing that we're building that I

unique thing that we're building that I don't think there's a a I can't point to

don't think there's a a I can't point to an exact competitor on on that front.

an exact competitor on on that front. You talk a lot about integrity and

You talk a lot about integrity and fairness. Fairness is cheap to tweet but

fairness. Fairness is cheap to tweet but expensive to implement. Where did it

expensive to implement. Where did it cost you the most?

cost you the most? It probably cost us in many ways that I

It probably cost us in many ways that I don't because I don't ever it's it's not

don't because I don't ever it's it's not a decision to me ever where it's like

a decision to me ever where it's like should we do the thing that's fair or

should we do the thing that's fair or the thing that's not fair and like let's

the thing that's not fair and like let's do a cost benefits now. It's just like

do a cost benefits now. It's just like that's not how we think and so I don't

that's not how we think and so I don't know concretely what the trade-off is.

know concretely what the trade-off is. But I don't doubt that there is like if

But I don't doubt that there is like if you if you are willing to compromise on

you if you are willing to compromise on integrity and fairness and you cut the

integrity and fairness and you cut the corners then you can grow a lot faster.

corners then you can grow a lot faster. I think that's just undeniable and you

I think that's just undeniable and you see it and like sometimes like you see

see it and like sometimes like you see you saw it with FTX I think they hypers

you saw it with FTX I think they hypers scaled and they maybe if they weren't

scaled and they maybe if they weren't caught they would have gotten away with

caught they would have gotten away with it all. So um I think for some people it

it all. So um I think for some people it is a it is a costbenefit analysis but I

is a it is a costbenefit analysis but I think for us at least it's not it's not

think for us at least it's not it's not that like the cost could be infinite in

that like the cost could be infinite in some sense and we uh we still the the

some sense and we uh we still the the principle itself is un is unalienable.

principle itself is un is unalienable. >> What do you want hyperlquid to be

>> What do you want hyperlquid to be remembered for?

remembered for? >> I don't want it to be remembered for

>> I don't want it to be remembered for anything. I just want I want it to be

anything. I just want I want it to be used uh forever. I think the best

used uh forever. I think the best I think Bitcoin will hopefully have this

I think Bitcoin will hopefully have this this fate where it becomes a store of

this fate where it becomes a store of value that is forever in the hands of

value that is forever in the hands of just like not in the hands of any one

just like not in the hands of any one power that controls it. And I think uh

power that controls it. And I think uh I'm not sure anything else in crypto is

I'm not sure anything else in crypto is going to la you know stand the test of

going to la you know stand the test of time. But um but I but I hope Hyperlid

time. But um but I but I hope Hyperlid becomes the internet for money.

becomes the internet for money. Many founders and investors are burnt

Many founders and investors are burnt out.

out. Crypto markets have been pretty

Crypto markets have been pretty disappointing disappointing for a lot of

disappointing disappointing for a lot of people.

people. Not much has come out in terms of

Not much has come out in terms of innovation from the space in many years.

innovation from the space in many years. So I figured some words from one of the

So I figured some words from one of the most admired and respected builders in

most admired and respected builders in the space could help keep some talents

the space could help keep some talents in the space and give us all some hope.

in the space and give us all some hope. Why should people stay in crypto when

Why should people stay in crypto when there is an AI brain drain?

Yeah. Well, my answer to that question is at least from hyperlquid's

is at least from hyperlquid's perspective,

perspective, we have

we have one very important job as a species

one very important job as a species and it's there's a ticking time bomb

and it's there's a ticking time bomb because AI is going to come and

because AI is going to come and basically supplant human intelligence in

basically supplant human intelligence in the near future. And I think it's it's

the near future. And I think it's it's actually not as close as people think. I

actually not as close as people think. I think AI cannot write good code yet. Uh

think AI cannot write good code yet. Uh the co the code code that is very

the co the code code that is very important should not be should not be

important should not be should not be written by AI. Maybe I'm a bit of a hold

written by AI. Maybe I'm a bit of a hold out there, but but it's going to happen.

out there, but but it's going to happen. And um before that happens, I think

And um before that happens, I think before before AI hits a escape velocity

before before AI hits a escape velocity and is self-improving and basically

and is self-improving and basically renders human intelligence obsolete, I

renders human intelligence obsolete, I think there needs to be a financial

think there needs to be a financial system to which they can plug in because

system to which they can plug in because once intelligence is largely machine

once intelligence is largely machine driven, the necessarily value transfer

driven, the necessarily value transfer will largely be machine driven as well.

will largely be machine driven as well. And there is no way that AI will plug

And there is no way that AI will plug into the existing financial system. Uh

into the existing financial system. Uh which is I'm talking about the legacy

which is I'm talking about the legacy one. Uh there it's just it's just not

one. Uh there it's just it's just not possible. Like it's not like code and

possible. Like it's not like code and value are not on the same information

value are not on the same information and value and therefore code and value

and value and therefore code and value are not on the same playing field in the

are not on the same playing field in the legacy man financial system. And so one

legacy man financial system. And so one very important job for us as humans is

very important job for us as humans is to build a financial system in which

to build a financial system in which humans have a stake because and that

humans have a stake because and that that does is programmable and accessible

that does is programmable and accessible because if not then um then humans will

because if not then um then humans will be cut out of the financial system that

be cut out of the financial system that replaces it and Hyperlid is in my

replaces it and Hyperlid is in my opinion our best shot

opinion our best shot and as an extension all builders in

and as an extension all builders in crypto you know Hyperlid is not built by

crypto you know Hyperlid is not built by one team. is it is uh you know I wanted

one team. is it is uh you know I wanted I think it really should be viewed as

I think it really should be viewed as the a a collective effort to build a

the a a collective effort to build a family of primitives companies etc that

family of primitives companies etc that interact and you know when the AI

interact and you know when the AI overlords come uh they will they will

overlords come uh they will they will adopt it because uh it's it's been built

adopt it because uh it's it's been built well and um and is autonomous and fair

well and um and is autonomous and fair and open and permissionless.

and open and permissionless. >> Thank you so much Jeff for doing this.

>> Thank you so much Jeff for doing this. Thank you for giving hope to the entire

Thank you for giving hope to the entire industry by doing it the right way and

industry by doing it the right way and setting the standards for an entire new

setting the standards for an entire new crypto generation of builders.

crypto generation of builders. A standard was truly needed. I and

A standard was truly needed. I and probably the entire crypto space can't

probably the entire crypto space can't wait to see what Hyperlid does next.

wait to see what Hyperlid does next. Well, it's still a lot to do. So, thanks

Well, it's still a lot to do. So, thanks for having me on.

As you probably know by now, I host some of the biggest name in Bitcoin and

of the biggest name in Bitcoin and crypto on my podcast. But a lot of the

crypto on my podcast. But a lot of the best stuff never makes it on air.

best stuff never makes it on air. Newsletter is where I share that raw

Newsletter is where I share that raw behindthe-scene alpha, the insights,

behindthe-scene alpha, the insights, stories, and lessons straight from my

stories, and lessons straight from my guests that you won't hear anywhere

guests that you won't hear anywhere else. If you want the real inside take

else. If you want the real inside take on Bitcoin and crypto, join my

on Bitcoin and crypto, join my newsletter, The Shift, in the

newsletter, The Shift, in the description down below.

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